Passing the torch: from dwarves to sylvari

Passing the torch: from dwarves to sylvari

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

1) You must be playing a different game than me, because what I see is “many points which count against the theory, and, as far as I know, none for it.”
2) The dragon minions have, and Edge of Destiny which gives you an inside look on various dragon minions. It isn’t mind control. Think of it more like, if you’ve played Mass Effect 2, Legion’s loyalty mission where you can rewrite the heretic geth’s personality – this isn’t mind control, because mind control is active. It’s brainwashing in its most powerful form (but not the amnesia kind); a passive act that doesn’t require constant active effort. You do it and its done.
3) Elder Dragons don’t need to be awake to “control” their minions – but seeing how they don’t control them, it wouldn’t matter anyways. All dragon minions are aware of their dragon and their “origins”.

You’re points hold no water and you seem to come at them from thin air. I shall, instead, source you for reasons why they cannot be Elder Dragon minions – of any Elder Dragon.

Argument A: Sylvari are “immune” to Elder Dragon corruption, in that they will die when touched with corruptive dragon magic. They are fully unique in this, though the Forgotten and mursaat have shown magic of preventing, and somewhat countering, dragon corruption.

Sources:

While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold. Many sylvari believe that this is because they were born to battle the dragons, blessed with a certain protection against their most horrible powers. Some non-sylvari scholars state instead that the sylvari’s strange biology foils the corruption of the dragons. A few clever souls state that sylvari just taste bad to dragons. No one knows for certain which is the truth.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

Marshal Trahearne himself had the initial idea. Once he realized that Zhaitan can’t raise sylvari, he formed this squad to exploit that weakness.
->Why doesn’t Zhaitan’s magic work on sylvari?
Unknown at present, but the Pact’s top minds are working on it. If you ask me, we’re just too new to Tyria. The Elder Dragons haven’t figured us out yet.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marching_Orders#Dialogues

Here we have cases of explicit mention for Kralkatorrik’s and Zhaitan’s corruption. But similarly, we see many branded trees in the Dragonbrand, Ghosts of Ascalon mentioning even the grass itself becoming branded; and for Zhaitan in Bloodtide Coast we have Corrupted Trees and in Sparkfly Fen we have Corrupted Stumps. Which brings us to…

Counter-Counter Argument: The argument that they die because they are already corrupted by a different dragon fails because we know that creatures can be corrupted by multiple dragons. We have three examples of this in Crucible of Eternity via Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha. And the last explicitly has Mordremoth’s corruption so it isn’t a case of Mordremoth’s corruption being incompatible with the others’ either.

Exhibit B: It isn’t just a case of these dragons not corrupting plants, as has been argued. Using the examples in the previous argument, and the following dialogue:

->What are these corrupted trees?
Those foul things seemed to spring up when the Orrians invaded The corruptions are lethal and must be destroyed.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crusader_Aisling

->You’ve seen corrupted wildlife?
Oh yes, and we’ve seen them change after eating the dead fish. They become ill. They spread the Orrian curse. They corrupt the plants as well.
->Corrupted plants?
Yes. Corrupted plants wither to stumps. If you bring me one, I might be able to devise a way to reverse the corruption.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ayomichi

…we see that the dragons can corrupt plants.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Exhibit C: Sylvari, without the Dream or Ventari’s Tablet’s influence, do not resemble dragon minion personality.

Sources:
There isn’t one specific example, you’d have to look throughout dragon minion dialogues and lines. Even excluding the Icebrood and Sons of Svanir, you see a huge amount of dragon minions actively revering their dragon – even those that shouldn’t even know its name speak it (due to the hive mind mentality). We see an uninfluenced sylvari in the form of Malyck which does not exhibit any of the fanaticism seen amongst Risen, Branded, Icebrood, and even – I believe via Edge of Destiny though I may be wrong here – Destroyers.

Exhibit Sylvari are unaffected by the Forgotten’s purifying ritual.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29

In the Forgotten’s path, you not only discover but perform an ancient ritual which removes the dragon’s corruption from the mind. This ritual was once performed on Glint and is explicitly stated to return the subject’s free will:

Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

These four are the most common arguments for sylvari being dragon minions, but as you can see there is more evidence to support these “arguments for” actually being arguments against. So please tell me, HHR, what exactly are the arguments for if not these.

And before using Scarlet, allow me to state this: we hold no evidence to accurately support the Entity that invaded Scarlet’s mind being Mordremoth or connected in any way shape or form to Mordremoth. There are hints in the Aftermath instance (supported by previous actions and the Energy Probe maps on the Breachmaker) that Scarlet’s ultimate goal was not waking Mordremoth; that was just part of her goal, a big part but still not the final outcome she desired. As I explain and expand, even theorize on, here.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

To play Devil’s Advocate on the Forgotten ritual point there:

The ritual naturally wouldn’t have any noticeable effect on her if the Sylvari species came about from former dragon minions that were cleansed through the Forgotten ritual or something similar to that. In this hypothesis, Illyra is already in the same state as Glint or Twitchy (or, probably more accurately, Glint’s children) – the ritual has no visible effect on her because the sylvari have already been protected/converted by such.

Hypothesising that the Forgotten also cleansed an ancestral Pale Tree at some stage covers most of the points – however, it still means that the original reason for people thinking that the sylvari were dragon minions in the first place (because of their apparent immunity to corruption) is void. Once you invoke an external cause for their resistance, then a wide range of other possible origins for the sylvari appear – for instance, that the forgotten created them in order to provide an army next time the dragons rose.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Mickey Frogeater.1470

Mickey Frogeater.1470

Kanaxai can dominate the minds it has corrupted just like an Elder Dragon.

Many things can do what Elder Dragons can….

Glint can create Crystal Elementals(subclass of Branded) bound to her will, the Great Dwarf can create Stone Dwarves(this guy isn’t related to Elder Dragons) bound to a single goal and Foefire can corrupt Ascalon’s Ghosts to Adelbern’s hatred(was Adelbern’s sword forged from Zhaitan’s blood or not?)….

Dare I mention how Shiro could also corrupt beings into Afflicted? And how Urgoz once corrupted by Shiro could corrupt the creatures into dark forest beings(by the way is there any likelyhood of Urgoz being an Elder Dragon Champion)?

All powerful beings corrupt like Elder Dragons and their Champions….

(edited by Mickey Frogeater.1470)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

@Draxynnic: True, but the argument that HHR was holding is that they’re not acting like dragon minions because Mordremoth was sleeping, and because they don’t know that they’re dragon minions (which makes no sense, honestly, when knowing the nature of dragon minions as much as we do). He wasn’t arguing they’re purified dragon minions.

@Mickey: The Great Dwarf didn’t create stone dwarves, per se. Whether the Great Dwarf is even a physical being is called into question, and therefore so would be the case of the Great Dwarf creating anything.

I doubt Magdaer and Sohothin were made by pieces of Zhaitan, to be honest, if for no other reason than the fact that unlike the Sanguinary Blade, Magdaer and Sohothin do not make dragon minions – they make something else that acts like dragon minions.

Afflicted were just putrid undead in a sense, their bodies were not twisted into some element like the dragon minions are, but their bodies became diseased and seemed to have exploded within the skin (or there were biles, deformaties, etc.). They are a far cry from dragon corruption. Furthermore, Shiro never did any of the mental alterations that Elder Dragons do – he did force spirits to his will, but this was a power of being an Envoy – the power to control souls, little different from Ritualists, honestly.

And no, no likelihood of Urgoz being a dragon champion – he’s a forest spirit who went mad from the Echovald Forest turning to stone. And the Jade Wind that Shiro used was powered by the gods’ magic, not dragons. Plus, Urgoz didn’t make creatures, nor corrupt them, he just drove them mad. Which is also a very far cry from Elder Dragon corruption (there was no physical alterations to the creatures maddened by Urgoz).

When you look at generals, sure, powerful beings can “corrupt like Elder Dragons and their champions” – but when you look at 1) how it’s done, 2) how they end up both physical and mentally the nthe only ones you get close to how the Elder Dragons corrupt is the Rite of the Great Dwarf (but again, the Great Dwarf may never have existed as a physical being), and Kanaxai (whom is a demon). The Foefire ghosts come close, but they’ve still got some good differences – though fewer differences than the sylvari do compared to Elder Dragons.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Konig, I think Mickey’s whole point is that just because Being A can influence Being B doesn’t mean that A must be a dragon and B must be a dragon minion (or on the way to becoming one). There are other ways to take someone’s control of their mind and body away from them.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Mickey Frogeater.1470

Mickey Frogeater.1470

Exactly! Any powerful enough person can corrupt and enslave everything around them. Elder Dragons are just beings powerful enough to do so(like Foefire and high ranking Demon).

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

My points still stand though. Even though we can see cases of powerful beings enslaving and changing another (you forgot Abaddon and the Margonites, btw), if you look past that simple description you see there are many differences in most cases.

The confusion in your argument came from “was Adelbern’s sword forged from Zhaitan’s blood or not?” and how the final sentence was worded… a subliminal point was made.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

Argument A: Sylvari are “immune” to Elder Dragon corruption, in that they will die when touched with corruptive dragon magic. They are fully unique in this, though the Forgotten and mursaat have shown magic of preventing, and somewhat countering, dragon corruption.

Sources:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110815225850/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marching_Orders#Dialogues

Here we have cases of explicit mention for Kralkatorrik’s and Zhaitan’s corruption. But similarly, we see many branded trees in the Dragonbrand, Ghosts of Ascalon mentioning even the grass itself becoming branded; and for Zhaitan in Bloodtide Coast we have Corrupted Trees and in Sparkfly Fen we have Corrupted Stumps. Which brings us to…

Counter-Counter Argument: The argument that they die because they are already corrupted by a different dragon fails because we know that creatures can be corrupted by multiple dragons. We have three examples of this in Crucible of Eternity via Kudu, Kudu’s Monster, and Subject Alpha. And the last explicitly has Mordremoth’s corruption so it isn’t a case of Mordremoth’s corruption being incompatible with the others’ either.

Exhibit B: It isn’t just a case of these dragons not corrupting plants, as has been argued. Using the examples in the previous argument, and the following dialogue:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crusader_Aisling

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ayomichi

…we see that the dragons can corrupt plants.

This isn’t really the appropriate place to have yet another argument about whether sylvari are dragon minions (since it isn’t really what this thread is saying anyway), but this point is relevant so I want to ask how you can say with such certainty that dragon minions can be corrupted by multiple dragons. There’s Risen and Destroyers in Mount Maelstrom, and there’s Destroyers and Icebrood in Lornar’s Pass, but we never see one hybrid minion. We don’t know how the experiments in the Crucible of Eternity were conducted, and we don’t know the level of difficulty Kudu had in creating the hybrids. Surely it required more than just putting them next to each other and waiting for it to happen – if it were so easy, we’d see hybrids out in the open world. In any event, it seems very premature to look at a few hybrids created in highly controlled conditions by advanced technology and state definitively, once and for all, that if sylvari aren’t corrupted by the minions of other dragons, they must not themselves be dragon minions.

Question: how do you think this theory, about sylvari being dragon minions came about? Why do you think so many people believe it. I know it’s not because one person had the idea and others found it compelling. It seems to me that a lot of people arrived at it independently – and that’s because that’s what ANet seem to be hinting at, deliberately. You’re thinking way too hard about lore in trying to state a clear and complete set of rules on dragon corruption when we have a working sample size of what, four? You’re ignoring the fact that this is a game, and unlike, real life, if the universe seems to be dropping hints, you should sit up and listen. A similar example would be Exemplar Salia of the Shining Blade, who has never seen any indication that the mursaat still exist. Logically, Lazarus the Dire was injured and alone, and probably would have died somewhere in the Tarnished Coast. And yet, you believe (as do I) that the mursaat will one day make their return, because that’s the obvious direction for the storytelling to take. So why that, and not this? I think you just don’t like the idea that sylvari are dragon minions, that it doesn’t fit with your own head canon or whatever.

What I want to know is this: what’s your theory? You’ve very quick to kitten on the theories of others (gleefully so, in some cases), but what do you have that’s better, that makes more sense both logically and narratively? Tell me, Konig – the seeds Ronan found, the Pale Tree spawning the sylvari just as the Elder Dragons awoke, the sylvari immunity to dragon corruption, the Dream and the feeling of purpose and compulsion to fight the dragons, Caithe and Faolain, Scarlet and Mordremoth, the collective destiny of the sylvari – how do you explain it all?

Kanaxai can dominate the minds it has corrupted just like an Elder Dragon.

Interesting choice of words, actually. The Risen that the Inquest have managed to bring under their control in Arah are marked as “Dominated”.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

(edited by Tamias.7059)

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Question: how do you think this theory, about sylvari being dragon minions came about? Why do you think so many people believe it.

Why do I think that Sylvari are dragonminions?

  1. Sylvari = Wood People, Mordremoth = Wood Dragon
  2. In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon
  3. Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragonminion
  4. The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but noone knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream
  5. The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are comming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species
  6. The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape
  7. The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clearify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist?
  8. The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth.
  9. Simply the evolution: The Dream isn’t necessary for the Sylvari to survive. So why does it exist?
    And why are all Sylvari connected to the Dream by default? Probably to control them.
  10. Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon.

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

She isn’t part of the Nightmare Court, so your argumentation is obsolete.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Mist.6217

Mist.6217

Why do I think that Sylvari are dragonminions?

  1. Sylvari = Forest not Wood People if you use the meaning of the base of their name Sylva, Mordremoth = Jungle not Wood Dragon
  2. In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon. The dragon is the PC’s Wyld Hunt being shown to them in the Dream.
  3. Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragon minion. There is nothing that says dragon minions can’t be corrupted by other dragons, CoE is an example thought it was the Inquest that used the corruption not the dragons themselves.
  4. The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but no one knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream.
  5. The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are coming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species
  6. The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape. The Forgotten ritual shows corruption can be removed, though in only one known way. While a member of the Nightmare hasn’t been put through the ritual yet there is no way of knowing if that would be removed as well, though it is doubtful IMO as it isn’t a form of dragon corruptions.
  7. The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clarify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist? There will always be two sides in a society, good and evil. There is no escaping that. Ventari’s tablet doesn’t make one inherently ‘good’ it just provides a moral foundation for those that follow it’s teachings.
  8. The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth. Sylvari aren’t a hive though, and neither is the dream. Awakened Sylvari can’t re-access the Dream to see what other awakened Sylvari are experience, other than the Pale Tree herself granting them access.
  9. Simply the evolution: The Dream isn’t necessary for the Sylvari to survive. So why does it exist? I would say it exists for the same reason Norn Havrouns have access to the Mists, as a way to be guided toward their fate or destiny. Of all the known dragons none have access to the Mist outside the Norn PS where the Wolf Havroun is pinned between our world and Mist after he opened a portal.
    And why are all Sylvari connected to the Dream by default? Probably to control them.
  10. Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon. All Sylvari are NOT connected to the Dream, shown by Malyck.

Responded to the ones I knew in Bold and considering I am not as knowledgeable as some here in the Lore Forum, your points don’t hold in a debate on the issues. Now some of what I wrote could be wrong but it is based on what I have read and seen of the lore.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Responded to the ones I knew in Bold and considering I am not as knowledgeable as some here in the Lore Forum, your points don’t hold in a debate on the issues. Now some of what I wrote could be wrong but it is based on what I have read and seen of the lore.

  1. Other words for the same meaning.
  2. It was the Nightmare who compromised the Dream and the Nightmare has chosen to appear in the form of a dragon. You are right that it’s the sign for our character to fight the dragons but that doesn’t imply that it’s not Mordremoth’s influence who is controlling the Nightmare.
  3. As Tamias already pointed out: Under normal circumstances no being will be corrupted twice.
  4. That’s why I’ve said multiple times now that we should take an obsessed Sylvari to the altar to test it. However, in my mind, the Sylvari are created by the Pale Tree, who is created by the dragon. So, the Sylvari are dragonminions. The Dream is a tool to corrupt and control the Sylvari and the Nightmare is the corruption.
  5. The Nightmare Court is using those “bad” feelings to drive Sylvari into the Nightmare, yet it is not the origin of the Nightmare. If a Sylvari has once fallen for the Nightmare he can’t escape. That’s not how emotions work.
  6. The Sylvari can’t re-access the Dream and they aren’t meant to do so. However, all the things they’ve experienced are getting “uploaded”. They don’t have any control over the information shared with the Dream. Their only way to cut this connection is to “unplug” themselves, which requires alot of fortitude. They aren’t meant to leave the Dream and they aren’t meant to control the Dream, yet they can be influenced through the Dream. A perfect tool to control someones actions, don’t you think so?
  7. Havrouns are blessed by the spirits to accommodate the wishes of the spirits. So why are Sylvari “blessed” with their forced connection to the Dream?
  8. Malyck is from another Tree and it is very little known about him. Also, there are many inconsistencies with his person, such as, why he looks like any other Sylvari if it’s stated that the Pale Tree created the Sylvari by the design of humans.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

  1. Sylvari = Wood People, Mordremoth = Wood Dragon Sounds like you put every tree and flower into the list of his minions, does this also work for underwater plants?
  2. In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon on the argue that the dream is controlled from even that dragon why should he contract you to kill himself?
  3. Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragonminion They die to corruption. It’s different.
  4. The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but noone knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream The pale tree is the vein between ventari’s tablet and the sleeping new sylvari. The dream is the first thing you experience and it’s not natural for sylvari. side notice: the dream of dreams might be the description for the entity behind
  5. The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are comming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species Is there anything known about dragons create races with society structures?
  6. The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape Corruption could be cured, nightmare has no cure.
  7. The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clearify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist? Nightmare is no dragon corruption, it’s shield cracking.
  8. The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth. look #4
  9. Simply the evolution: The Dream isn’t necessary for the Sylvari to survive. So why does it exist?
    And why are all Sylvari connected to the Dream by default? Probably to control them. Your answer matches.
  10. Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon. Ceara = Scarlet Briar and she decided it herself to wake the dragon if it’s part of her plan.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

1)

  • Sylvari = Wood People, Mordremoth = Wood Dragon Sounds like you put every tree and flower into the list of his minions, does this also work for underwater plants?

To be precise: The Sylvari are the fruit of a seed of unknown source. The only thing we can say is that this source is most likely not natural. And do we know a unnatural plant-like creature? Oh yes, as far as I can remember, we know a dragon matching all those criteria.

2)

  • In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon on the argue that the dream is controlled from even that dragon why should he contract you to kill himself?

The Dream is a tool to corrupt the Sylvari, it is not the corruption itself. The Pale Tree on the other hand wants to retain the Dream in it’s current form, so it’s sending us out to protect the Dream.

3)

  • Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragonminion They die to corruption. It’s different.

They don’t die to corruption, they die because they’re killed. They can’t be corrupted afterwards. There are no undead Sylvari because once they’re dead, they stay dead.
And even if they die to corruption, that deosn’t prove my point being invalid.

4)

  • The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but noone knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream The pale tree is the vein between ventari’s tablet and the sleeping new sylvari. The dream is the first thing you experience and it’s not natural for sylvari. side notice: the dream of dreams might be the description for the entity behind

I don’t really know what you want to tell me with that so I can’t respond to that.

5)

  • The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are comming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species Is there anything known about dragons create races with society structures?

The Pale Tree is just creating the Sylvari and protecting and influencing the Dream.
Ventari’s Tablet is the reason of the society structure the Sylvari have.

6)

  • The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape Corruption could be cured, nightmare has no cure.

We’ve never tried it so we can’t say for sure, can we? The corruption can be cured only with the ritual used in Arah P3. We have to test it with the Nightmare Court, so we could say if it is a dragonmade corruption.

7)

  • The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clearify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist? Nightmare is no dragon corruption, it’s shield cracking.

Either way, once a Sylvari has fallen to the Nightmare, it can’t be saved. And if the dragon can now take control over the Nightmare, those Sylvari would turn to the dragonminions we all know already from other dragons.

8)

  • The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth. look #4

The “souls” of the Sylvari are created within the Dream. So whoever has control over the Dream has control over the Sylvari.

9)

  • Simply the evolution: The Dream isn’t necessary for the Sylvari to survive. So why does it exist?
    And why are all Sylvari connected to the Dream by default? Probably to control them. Your answer matches.

Nothing to add here.

10)

  • Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon. Ceara = Scarlet Briar and she decided it herself to wake the dragon if it’s part of her plan.

I know that Ceara and Scarlet are the same person. However something broke her mind and this “thing” was already inside her. So if Mordremoth created the Sylvari, he probably has a “backdoor”. Yet this backdoor is normally closed. And let me ask this: Who would benefit from the awakineng of an elder dragon? Probably just the elder dragon itself.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Mist.6217

Mist.6217

  1. Other words for the same meaning. There is a difference, and a large one, between a forest and a jungle. The only similarity is they both have trees in one form or another. (A tree in a northern forest would have a heck of a time trying to grow in a southern jungle.)
  2. It was the Nightmare who compromised the Dream and the Nightmare has chosen to appear in the form of a dragon. You are right that it’s the sign for our character to fight the dragons but that doesn’t imply that it’s not Mordremoth’s influence who is controlling the Nightmare. No the dragon in the PC’s dream instance is the Dream showing the PC it’s Wyld Hunt. The dragon has nothing to do with the Nightmare before the Nightmare takes it and tries to use it for it’s own purpose.
  3. As Tamias already pointed out: Under normal circumstances no being will be corrupted twice. Under current circumstances. We haven’t really seem an instance where two different sets of Dragon minions have run into each other.
  4. That’s why I’ve said multiple times now that we should take an obsessed Sylvari to the altar to test it. However, in my mind, the Sylvari are created by the Pale Tree, who is created by the dragon. So, the Sylvari are dragon minions. The Dream is a tool to corrupt and control the Sylvari and the Nightmare is the corruption. There is zero evidence that a dragon created the Pale Tree’s seed. For all we know of it, it was just in a cave protected by aggressive plants (There were a lot of those in GW1 that had zero connection to dragons.) The Nightmare isn’t a corruption it is the negative side of the Dream, same coin two sides. They feel that the tablet ‘corrupted’ the true nature of the Sylvari to what is common, vs the Nightmare which is the exception.
  5. The Nightmare Court is using those “bad” feelings to drive Sylvari into the Nightmare, yet it is not the origin of the Nightmare. If a Sylvari has once fallen for the Nightmare he can’t escape. That’s not how emotions work. *The first to go to the Nightmare, Cadeyrn, started it because he was jealous of all the attention the First born’s got and the fact he didn’t get all he wanted (in a basic sense) that is pretty emotionally based to me. Here from the wiki “The Nightmare Court was founded by the Secondborn Cadeyrn after a number of events, such as Niamh’s refusal to dispatch of krait younglings and the refusal of the Firstborn to seek revenge on the asura for their treatment of Malomedies, convinced him that the Ventari Tablet was holding the Sylvari back and that if the Sylvari were truly to defeat the Elder Dragons, they would have to use any means necessary.” *
  6. The Sylvari can’t re-access the Dream and they aren’t meant to do so. However, all the things they’ve experienced are getting “uploaded”. They don’t have any control over the information shared with the Dream. Their only way to cut this connection is to “unplug” themselves, which requires a lot of fortitude. They aren’t meant to leave the Dream and they aren’t meant to control the Dream, yet they can be influenced through the Dream. A perfect tool to control someones actions, don’t you think so? It only influences them during their time in it. Other than Wyld Hunts it doesn’t ‘control’ them once they are awaken, unless I missed some bit of information some where.
  7. Havrouns are blessed by the spirits to accommodate the wishes of the spirits. So why are Sylvari “blessed” with their forced connection to the Dream? They aren’t blessed the Pale Tree is, hence why a tree has been personified. The Sylvari are her fruit.
  8. Malyck is from another Tree and it is very little known about him. Also, there are many inconsistencies with his person, such as, why he looks like any other Sylvari if it’s stated that the Pale Tree created the Sylvari by the design of humans. True little is known other than he is a Sylvari, acts with morals like the Dream Sylvari (not the Nightmare), and has no memory of the Dream. All that means is his tree’s seed could have come from the same cave where the Pale Tree’s seed came from but didn’t get a magical connection to the Mist, through the Dream, that the Pale Tree did.

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Posted by: Silavor.6257

Silavor.6257

Your theory doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying the Pale Tree is a dragon champion and the sylvari are dragon minions, but they aren’t actually corrupted yet until they fall to Nightmare. That… makes absolutely no sense. Either they’re minions or they’re not.

That would be like a Destroyer spawning pool creating free-thinking rock monsters that then have to be forcefully subdued and twisted into a real Destroyer.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

  1. Are you kidding? The Sylvari are plants, Mordremoth is a plant dragon.
  2. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fighting_the_Nightmare
  3. Please read the post from Tamias again. There are two different sets of dragonminions fighting each other and there are no hybrids.
  4. The seeds must have a strong magical origin. They are not natural and they are not the source of the Dream, which is a part of all Sylvari.
    Emotions can’t corrupt you. The Nightmare can. It is using the negative emotions but the emotions are not the origin of the Nightmare.
  5. Same as above.
  6. The Nightmare Court has fallen for the Nightmare. They can’t escape, even if the would want to. They are both influenced and influencing the Nightmare, and through that, the Dream. All other Sylvari are influenced by the Dream same as they are influenced through emotions.
  7. And the Sylvari are too since they are connected to the Dream and they can’t chose to be not connected withit until they “unplug” themselves.
  8. Or he is jst not connected with the Dream of the other Tree.
    The Dream isn’t established by the Tree, the Dream has to have a greater source. This source has to be more powerful than the Tree to maintain the Dream and keep the connection to all Sylvari.

[/quote]

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

1)

  • Sylvari = Wood People, Mordremoth = Wood Dragon Sounds like you put every tree and flower into the list of his minions, does this also work for underwater plants?

To be precise: The Sylvari are the fruit of a seed of unknown source. The only thing we can say is that this source is most likely not natural. And do we know a unnatural plant-like creature? Oh yes, as far as I can remember, we know a dragon matching all those criteria.

Just to plain simple. Counter example: pling … humans are here (naturally), pling … norn are here (naturally), pling … jotun are here (natural). We might ask about origins of all races and then we get the answer dragons for all? What does separate the Sylvari from the other races in their creation? We just know that they are young and probably rose earlier than planned (with Ventari’s help).

2)

  • In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon on the argue that the dream is controlled from even that dragon why should he contract you to kill himself?

The Dream is a tool to corrupt the Sylvari, it is not the corruption itself. The Pale Tree on the other hand wants to retain the Dream in it’s current form, so it’s sending us out to protect the Dream.

Gives the conclusion that dragons are hostile towards each other. Why don’t we see it anywhere around?

3)

  • Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragonminion They die to corruption. It’s different.

They don’t die to corruption, they die because they’re killed. They can’t be corrupted afterwards. There are no undead Sylvari because once they’re dead, they stay dead.
And even if they die to corruption, that deosn’t prove my point being invalid.

Okay. Agree. They are immune, but not for the reason that they are minions. There is another reason for it.

4)

  • The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but noone knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream The pale tree is the vein between ventari’s tablet and the sleeping new sylvari. The dream is the first thing you experience and it’s not natural for sylvari. side notice: the dream of dreams might be the description for the entity behind

I don’t really know what you want to tell me with that so I can’t respond to that.

The matrix needs a host too and it’s basically a connected environment. The dream comes from ventari’s tablet which becomes along with the connection to the pale tree and the early hosting in every sylvari the dream we experience. The avatar of the pale tree is the voice for the dream.

5)

  • The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are comming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species Is there anything known about dragons create races with society structures?

The Pale Tree is just creating the Sylvari and protecting and influencing the Dream.
Ventari’s Tablet is the reason of the society structure the Sylvari have.

Which is quite ridiculous, influencing a younger race and take them all ability to develop their own society structure with predefinitions.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

6)

  • The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape Corruption could be cured, nightmare has no cure.

We’ve never tried it so we can’t say for sure, can we? The corruption can be cured only with the ritual used in Arah P3. We have to test it with the Nightmare Court, so we could say if it is a dragonmade corruption.

Nightmare Courtier: Nightmare is eternal.
Caithe: He’s a fool. Nothing comes back from nightmare.
I actually understood the nightmare and it’s really everywhere. No turn back into the dream without loosing every knowledge you have.

7)

  • The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clearify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist? Nightmare is no dragon corruption, it’s shield cracking.

Either way, once a Sylvari has fallen to the Nightmare, it can’t be saved. And if the dragon can now take control over the Nightmare, those Sylvari would turn to the dragonminions we all know already from other dragons.

The nightmare court is not under control of a dragon, they haven’t even tried to gather magic and wake him. Their only objective is to free sylvari from ventari’s tablet. Now that the dragon is active, his prior target should be the grove and destroy it (completely with all sylvari inside), just like Kralkatorric headed first to Glint. The nightmare court doesn’t want to kill the Pale Tree or other sylvari if not necessary.

8)

  • The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth. look #4

The “souls” of the Sylvari are created within the Dream. So whoever has control over the Dream has control over the Sylvari.

I completely agree, but the dream seems to emerge from ventari’s tablet and this is basically not even close to a connection to Mord.

10)

  • Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon. Ceara = Scarlet Briar and she decided it herself to wake the dragon if it’s part of her plan.

I know that Ceara and Scarlet are the same person. However something broke her mind and this “thing” was already inside her. So if Mordremoth created the Sylvari, he probably has a “backdoor”. Yet this backdoor is normally closed. And let me ask this: Who would benefit from the awakineng of an elder dragon? Probably just the elder dragon itself.

I didn’t want to say that it’s the same body with different minds. It’s a young destinated sylvari on the search for a solution to her wyld hunt and get informations to turn around and say: “All my life is planned. I have no influence on everything that is happening. I am a doll in the great game of other. No, I don’t want to. I want to be free. I even put my name down and choose one free for myself to show my resistance against everything.” It’s not like choosing the other side helps to get the fight done, because both sides are destroying Tyria. The question who profits is problematic, because it’s even hard to say what a good future for Tyria may be (But we want to keep it, don’t we?).

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Your theory doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying the Pale Tree is a dragon champion and the sylvari are dragon minions, but they aren’t actually corrupted yet until they fall to Nightmare. That… makes absolutely no sense. Either they’re minions or they’re not.

That would be like a Destroyer spawning pool creating free-thinking rock monsters that then have to be forcefully subdued and twisted into a real Destroyer.

Mordremoth spawns his seeds to create an army. He gave them his resistances and the tools to be corrupted. They aren’t corrupted in the first place but it would be very easy for him to corrupt them through the Dream. Why should that not make sence? Are the elder dragons not allowed to create their own minions? Do they have to be corrupted, once free beings?

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Posted by: Silavor.6257

Silavor.6257

Your theory doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying the Pale Tree is a dragon champion and the sylvari are dragon minions, but they aren’t actually corrupted yet until they fall to Nightmare. That… makes absolutely no sense. Either they’re minions or they’re not.

That would be like a Destroyer spawning pool creating free-thinking rock monsters that then have to be forcefully subdued and twisted into a real Destroyer.

Mordremoth spawns his seeds to create an army. He gave them his resistances and the tools to be corrupted. They aren’t corrupted in the first place but it would be very easy for him to corrupt them through the Dream. Why should that not make sence? Are the elder dragons not allowed to create their own minions? Do they have to be corrupted, once free beings?

Of course elder dragons can create their own minions, that’s why I mentioned Primordus and the Destroyers in the first place.
My point is that you’re saying Mordremoth creates the sylvari as free-thinking beings, THEN corrupts them. That is what does not make sense. Why is a dragon purposely creating non-minion ‘minions’ only to corrupt them and turn them into real minions later? That’s not how ANY of the other dragons work. At all.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

We don’t know what the Nightmare really is. We haven’t tested to free a Sylvari from the Nightmare. You can’t just say it’s impossible just because some say it’s impossible.
Noone believed humans could be on the moon until we’ve sent people to the moon.
Just because noone has successfully freed a Sylvari from the Nightmare yet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And still, it fits into the corruption theme. They are just corrupted, their “backdoor” is opened. Mordremoth has just not taken control over the nightmare because he was asleep.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Your theory doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying the Pale Tree is a dragon champion and the sylvari are dragon minions, but they aren’t actually corrupted yet until they fall to Nightmare. That… makes absolutely no sense. Either they’re minions or they’re not.

That would be like a Destroyer spawning pool creating free-thinking rock monsters that then have to be forcefully subdued and twisted into a real Destroyer.

Mordremoth spawns his seeds to create an army. He gave them his resistances and the tools to be corrupted. They aren’t corrupted in the first place but it would be very easy for him to corrupt them through the Dream. Why should that not make sence? Are the elder dragons not allowed to create their own minions? Do they have to be corrupted, once free beings?

Of course elder dragons can create their own minions, that’s why I mentioned Primordus and the Destroyers in the first place.
My point is that you’re saying Mordremoth creates the sylvari as free-thinking beings, THEN corrupts them. That is what does not make sense. Why is a dragon purposely creating non-minion ‘minions’ only to corrupt them and turn them into real minions later? That’s not how ANY of the other dragons work. At all.

Primordus is awake, Mordremoth is not. As I have suggested earlier, the Dream is being influenced by the Pale Tree, which used Ventari’s teachings as guideline for the new race. That’s the reason why the Dream is “good”. However, the Nightmare has also a source. The source of the “light” side is Ventari’s Tablet, the source of the “dark” side is… Well, it could be Mordremoth. Furthermore, the Sylvari are created to be like humans; and humans have a free will. If Primordus would spawn humanoid beings and not actively control them, they could have a free will aswell.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

We don’t know what the Nightmare really is. We haven’t tested to free a Sylvari from the Nightmare. You can’t just say it’s impossible just because some say it’s impossible.
Noone believed humans could be on the moon until we’ve sent people to the moon.
Just because noone has successfully freed a Sylvari from the Nightmare yet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And still, it fits into the corruption theme. They are just corrupted, their “backdoor” is opened. Mordremoth has just not taken control over the nightmare because he was asleep.

The shortest description is in math: nightmare = reality – dream

The nightmare is everywhere. I don’t say that you should believe my words, but there is no cure unless you delete memories and reapply the shield.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Silavor.6257

Silavor.6257

Dragons being awake or asleep has no standing on how their minions act.

In EotN both Drakkar and the Great Destroyer continued to do their masters’ work, even though Primordus and Jormag wouldn’t wake up for another 50-100 years.

If the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, why is it capable of choosing to be “good,” tablet or no tablet? How are Malyck and Malyck’s tree capable of choosing to be “good”? Glint couldn’t. Glint had free thought, but not free will, until the Forgotten specifically removed Kralkatorrik’s influence on her. If Ventari wrote down some words on a tablet and left them with pre-cleansed Glint, they wouldn’t have had any effect. She still would have been an instrument of Kralkatorrik’s will. They’re just words. How exactly are a bunch of words carved on a stone altering the dream, or changing the way a supposed minion acts?

And you’re still not really answering the question: why would Mordremoth create non-minion ‘minions’ in the first place, only to corrupt them later? What is the point? What does it accomplish? Why is it better than creating ACTUAL minions, bound to you right from birth and a part of your collective hive mind?

Primordus has spawned numerous humanoid beings, for what it’s worth. All of them are just as loyal to their master as the non-humanoids.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Dragons being awake or asleep has no standing on how their minions act.

In EotN both Drakkar and the Great Destroyer continued to do their masters’ work, even though Primordus and Jormag wouldn’t wake up for another 50-100 years.

If the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, why is it capable of choosing to be “good,” tablet or no tablet? How are Malyck and Malyck’s tree capable of choosing to be “good”? Glint couldn’t. Glint had free thought, but not free will, until the Forgotten specifically removed Kralkatorrik’s influence on her. If Ventari wrote down some words on a tablet and left them with pre-cleansed Glint, they wouldn’t have had any effect. She still would have been an instrument of Kralkatorrik’s will. They’re just words. How exactly are a bunch of words carved on a stone altering the dream, or changing the way a supposed minion acts?

And you’re still not really answering the question: why would Mordremoth create non-minion ‘minions’ in the first place, only to corrupt them later? What is the point? What does it accomplish? Why is it better than creating ACTUAL minions, bound to you right from birth and a part of your collective hive mind?

Primordus has spawned numerous humanoid beings, for what it’s worth. All of them are just as loyal to their master as the non-humanoids.

There could be two reasons:
1) Mordremoth wants the Sylvari to spread out, unaware of their origin to have a greater impact once he awakens and takes control.
2) The Pale Tree has grown unintentionally. the Trees aren’t meant to grow until Mordremoth is awake to take control of the Dream.
The relationship between the Tree and Mordremoth is like a Father teaching his unknowing child what’s wrong and what’s right. But Mordremoth was asleep and so, the Tree had to find another source of knowledge and he found it: Ventari’s Tablet.

Either way: The Tree oughtn’t find Ventari’s Tablet. Ventari’s teachings have influenced the Tree and the Dream in a way Mordremoth hasn’t inteded.

The Nightmare was the intended way to go. Sylvari can’t set themselves free from the Nightmare and it drives them to attack other races and Sylvari who haven’t fallen for the Nightmare yet.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

This isn’t really the appropriate place to have yet another argument about whether sylvari are dragon minions (since it isn’t really what this thread is saying anyway), but this point is relevant so I want to ask how you can say with such certainty that dragon minions can be corrupted by multiple dragons. There’s Risen and Destroyers in Mount Maelstrom, and there’s Destroyers and Icebrood in Lornar’s Pass, but we never see one hybrid minion.

The risen and destroyers never meet; the icebrood and destroyers never meet. Honestly, there aren’t many icebrood in Lornar’s Pass and even then they’re a whole half of the longest zone away – the risen for whatever reasons avoid Mount Maelstrom (maybe they’re crappy climbers) and the destroyers never leave the mountain.

We don’t know how the experiments in the Crucible of Eternity were conducted, and we don’t know the level of difficulty Kudu had in creating the hybrids. Surely it required more than just putting them next to each other and waiting for it to happen – if it were so easy, we’d see hybrids out in the open world.

If we ever see the dragon minions interacting, then maybe we will see hybrids. Though it is also possible that a champion is required to corrupt the others (simple minions, Sons of Svanir aside, seem hardly capable of spreading corruption unless there’s a large concentration of them).

But even so, the experiments prove that it is possible.

Question: how do you think this theory, about sylvari being dragon minions came about? Why do you think so many people believe it. I know it’s not because one person had the idea and others found it compelling. It seems to me that a lot of people arrived at it independently – and that’s because that’s what ANet seem to be hinting at, deliberately.

Draxynnic explained this very well, as well as why all previous evidence for the theory has been debunked, here.

I see nothing where ArenaNet hints at sylvari being dragon minions. If anything, all I see is ArenaNet hinting that sylvari are the antecedent of dragon minions. And I’ve looked at this from a purely neutral position before. And as Draxynnic explains in the post I linked, it actually was convincing, until its pillars of arguments got knocked out from beneath it.

You’re thinking way too hard about lore in trying to state a clear and complete set of rules on dragon corruption when we have a working sample size of what, four?

Four out of six. That’s a pretty good sample size when we have a maximum amount of samples. Furthermore, we’ve been told on multiple occasions that there are both similarities and differences between the Elder Dragons (and champions/minions). And what the sylvari lack is everything that’s similar between the Elder Dragons and their minions.

Honestly, I think you and others look too hard to try to argue your stance, which comes out as FenrirSlakt says.

You’re ignoring the fact that this is a game, and unlike, real life, if the universe seems to be dropping hints, you should sit up and listen.

What hints are there, for I see not a single one. All I see are evidence that point to the opposite of your so-called hint, and my I state that you and HHR (and all others) have yet to show these hints without being countered by actual cases in-game.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

A similar example would be Exemplar Salia of the Shining Blade, who has never seen any indication that the mursaat still exist. Logically, Lazarus the Dire was injured and alone, and probably would have died somewhere in the Tarnished Coast. And yet, you believe (as do I) that the mursaat will one day make their return, because that’s the obvious direction for the storytelling to take. So why that, and not this? I think you just don’t like the idea that sylvari are dragon minions, that it doesn’t fit with your own head canon or whatever.

Because unlike this, we actually have a hint that mursaat could still be around – ArenaNet explicitly leaving one alive is that hint. Furthermore, there’s other dialogue in the game which state that the mursaat always return when believed gone, and then as if to act as a prophecy states she thinks they’re gone for good.

But sylvari being dragon minions? Where’s your hints? That they’re made of plants? Well then I guess “this guy is also Mordremoth’s minion.”http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Seed_of_Corruption: Oh, and I guess that means that this thing is Primordus’ minion. Makes sense, they share elements! WRONG.

Where’s your hint? That the Dream of Dreams is a hive mind? Killeen outright states that it isn’t (as I stated earlier in this thread, quoting even, as I had done so in a previous thread towards you). So, again, not a hint.

[spoilers]“It isn’t mind reading, and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind. However, before coming into this world, all sylvari are united in the Dream of Dreams.”
Killeen, Ghosts of Ascalon – Page 120[/spoilers]

So where are these so called hints!? You say they are there but never mention what they are! Every one I’ve ever seen presented has counter arguments. Every one I’ve seen is either outright debunked or made unlikely by the evidence presented to us. This is a game, listen to what the universe hints – and it hints that sylvari are not dragon minions.

What I want to know is this: what’s your theory? You’ve very quick to kitten on the theories of others (gleefully so, in some cases), but what do you have that’s better, that makes more sense both logically and narratively? Tell me, Konig – the seeds Ronan found, the Pale Tree spawning the sylvari just as the Elder Dragons awoke, the sylvari immunity to dragon corruption, the Dream and the feeling of purpose and compulsion to fight the dragons, Caithe and Faolain, Scarlet and Mordremoth, the collective destiny of the sylvari – how do you explain it all?

There really isn’t enough hints anywhere that cannot be debunked elsewhere to really hold water to the origins of the sylvari. The theory that they’re a sentient weapon made during the previous dragon cycle (or shortly after) to awaken for the next (aka this) makes a lot to sense to me – but not in that them being dragon minions. As I said in my first post to you in this thread, if you removed the dragon minion addendums that you littered your first posts with, the theory makes sense.

I see no ties to Mordremoth, however, nor do I see a reason why there needs to be such. Even to Scarlet, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

You’ve given the answer to your “facts” right away.
You’ve said that there are with dragonmagic corrupted plants out there. So why can’t the Sylvari be corrupted? Probably because they are already “blessed” with dragonenergy.
And it’s only logical that a dragonminion can’t be corrupted twice.
1. They see their master as master. Simple. They can’t serve 2 different masters.
2. All dragons are probably fighting each other since they compete for the same resources, magic. You would never give the enemy control over your units.
It’s an unnatural state for a being being corrupted by 2 different types of magic.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Why do I think that Sylvari are dragonminions?

  1. Sylvari = Wood People, Mordremoth = Wood Dragon
  2. In the Sylvari story prologue, you have to fight the nightmare, in the form of a dragon
  3. Sylvari can’t be corrupted. So they are either immune or already a dragonminion
  4. The Dream is like the Matrix: All Sylvari are connected to it but noone knows the source or the reason for existence of the Dream
  5. The Pale Tree has no natural source: We don’t know where the seeds are comming from but it has to be a strong (magical) source to being able to create a whole new species
  6. The Nightmare behaves like the corruption does: Once you’ve fallen to the Nightmare, you can’t escape
  7. The Nightmare is a part of the Dream, so it’s most likely that the Nightmare was it’s actual appointment. To clearify: The reason for the Pale Tree to fight the Dragons it has sensed is Ventari’s Tablet. If Ventari’s teachings are the reason for the Dream behaving like it does right now, what is the reason for the Nightmare to exist?
  8. The Dream is neither established nor controlled by the Pale Tree; something more powerful has to be the source. And what is more powerful than the hive? The master of the hive. Probably an elder dragon named Mordremoth.
  9. Simply the evolution: The Dream isn’t necessary for the Sylvari to survive. So why does it exist?
    And why are all Sylvari connected to the Dream by default? Probably to control them.
  10. Why would Scarlet wake the elder dragons? The only reason is that Ceara was commanded to wake the dragon.
  1. So the treants must be Mordremoth’s minions too, then? Because they’re trees.
  2. Which is outright stated, multiple times, to be a representation of Zhaitan. Just like the emblem you can see on the waterfall when you first make a character and look at it – the emblem matching your biography option. The difference is that the Nightmare’s influence turned the emblem in to a threatening entity. Furthermore, if you look at the sylvari page on the official site you will note it says “A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world.” – this is a direct mention to the tutorial, and explains it off from a OOC point of view that it is a warning of danger about the wakened world, not some subliminal hint to control by some malevolent entity being an Elder Dragon.
  3. But as shown, we have cases that dragon minions being corrupted by other dragons’ energy is possible.
  4. Which relates to Elder Dragons… how?
  5. Which relates to Elder Dragons… how? You know there’s more than one powerful magic in the world. For all we know, the sylvari is the final gift of Melandru to the world.
  6. Insanity works this way too. But how does the Nightmare mean “all sylvari”, exactly? Besides, those who fall to the Nightmare are still fighting the Elder Dragons and their minions (so sayeth developers, even though we never see this in-game, I think).
  7. How do you get that the Nightmare is the “actual appointment” of the Dream? Also, the Ventari’s Tablet is not why the Pale Tree seeks to fight the Elder Dragons. The sylvari seek to fight the Elder Dragons for two reason – 1) the Dream tells them to (see the official site’s page on the sylvari), and 2) because the Pale Tree can feel the land suffering as the Elder Dragons attack (see her dialogue during A Light in the Darkness).
  8. That’s a pretty big leap you make. With no basis for why an Elder Dragon is the master of this so-called hive. Besides, why can’t the Dream of Dreams be a natural phenomena in this world of magic and afterlives that mix into reality? And explain Malyck, whom holds no Dream of Dreams connection.
  9. Which relates to Elder Dragons… how? And not all sylvari are connected to the Dream by default – see Malyck.
  10. Why indeed, but just because she woke a dragon doesn’t mean that was her ultimate goal, which is hinted to not be anyways. And just because she woke a dragon doesn’t mean that she did so because she was a minion of the dragon.

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

She isn’t part of the Nightmare Court, so your argumentation is obsolete.

But you argue that all sylvari are dragon minions. So therefore all sylvari would be affected by this ritual. It’s what your own argument entails!

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

We don’t know what the Nightmare really is. We haven’t tested to free a Sylvari from the Nightmare. You can’t just say it’s impossible just because some say it’s impossible.
Noone believed humans could be on the moon until we’ve sent people to the moon.
Just because noone has successfully freed a Sylvari from the Nightmare yet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And still, it fits into the corruption theme. They are just corrupted, their “backdoor” is opened. Mordremoth has just not taken control over the nightmare because he was asleep.

The shortest description is in math: nightmare = reality – dream

The nightmare is everywhere. I don’t say that you should believe my words, but there is no cure unless you delete memories and reapply the shield.

There is however still some flaws with your explanation. Why is the Nightmare Court agressive against all other creatures? Why do they all behave “bad”? It’s not like you can’t hate when following Ventari’s Teachings. The shield you are mentioning has to protect the Sylvari from something. What is the thread? It’s not bad feelings, that’s for sure. It has to be something humans have not since Sylvari are modelled on humans, yet humans don’t need this shield. I would say it’s the influence of the dragon but you may disagree here. However if it is the influence of a dragon this shield is protecting from, it can be cured like any other corruption of the dragons.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

She isn’t part of the Nightmare Court, so your argumentation is obsolete.

But you argue that all sylvari are dragon minions. So therefore all sylvari would be affected by this ritual. It’s what your own argument entails!

That’s simply not true. If you put the Shatterer on this altar, he would be cured, same as Glint got cured but his body wont change a bit. Illyra is a descendant of a dragon, thus she is immune to all other corruption. Yet she is not mentally corrupted. Hence, she isn’t cured because she isn’t infected.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

  1. Treants are a product of evolution, Sylvari are not.
  2. If it’s Zhaitan, why isn’kitten risen dragon then? And just because a character says it’s Zhaitan doesn’t mean it really Zhaitan. No god-mode narrator has ever said this dragonminion within the dream was a minion from Zhaitan.
  3. See my earlier post
  4. The Matrix was for the people who are connected to it. They could do everything exept leaving the Matrix. Yet the Architect used the Matrix to keep the people pleased so he could get the energy from the human bodies.
    The Dream doesn’t restrict the Sylvari but they can’t leave the Dream either (atleast the weren’t intended to leave the Dream). But the Dream offers huge power to that one who controls it. both information about everything all Sylvari are doing, thinking and experiencing and the possibility to influence them. The one who establishes the Dream and keep it running has to be unnatural, since the Pale Tree is unnatural, has to be very powerful and has to be the same type of being, a plant, as the Tree is.
    All those requirement are fitting to Mordremoth, an elder dragon, who is either a plant or uses plants.
  5. Haven’t found something about that; can’t talk about it.
  6. Insanity can be either cured or is inherent. Both do not apply to the Nightmare Court. And as I’ve said earlier, they are still unaware of their destiny. So they treat all dragons as enemies, same as any other race on Tyria.
  7. The Dream has to be filled woth informations to evaluate certain situations. The first information the Dream has experienced was Ventari’s Tablet. The Tablet told the Tree, the Dream what’s wrong and what not. The Pale Tree made the decission to fight the dragons based on the teachings of Ventari. If the Pale Tree never found Ventari’s Tablet, there would be no “light” side of the Dream, only the “dark” side, the Nightmare.
  8. See my preivous nine
  9. If the Dream would be natural phenomena, the Sylvari could decide to either accept the Dream or to refuse it, but they can’t. The connection is forced and someone has to force this connection and this “someone” has to get a pretty big advantage if it’s worth all the troubles.
  10. There is simply no other than the dragon himself who would benefit from the awakening. Something forced her to awake this dragon and since noone benefits from that it has to be the dragon itself. Furthermore, it was something that was always with her. So if the dragon left a backdoor to control the Sylvari once the dragon is awake, she probably rushed through that door head-on.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Primordus is awake, Mordremoth is not. As I have suggested earlier, the Dream is being influenced by the Pale Tree, which used Ventari’s teachings as guideline for the new race. That’s the reason why the Dream is “good”. However, the Nightmare has also a source. The source of the “light” side is Ventari’s Tablet, the source of the “dark” side is… Well, it could be Mordremoth. Furthermore, the Sylvari are created to be like humans; and humans have a free will. If Primordus would spawn humanoid beings and not actively control them, they could have a free will aswell.

Awake or asleep does not matter for corrupting

The Pale Tree may be influenced by Ventari’s teachings, but such things cannot remove dragon corruption. Few things can, and this is highlighted throughout the game. The source of the light is NOT Ventari’s Tablet. The Dream existed before the Pale Tree, this means it existed before the tablet.

You’ve given the answer to your “facts” right away.
You’ve said that there are with dragonmagic corrupted plants out there. So why can’t the Sylvari be corrupted? Probably because they are already “blessed” with dragonenergy.
And it’s only logical that a dragonminion can’t be corrupted twice.
1. They see their master as master. Simple. They can’t serve 2 different masters.
2. All dragons are probably fighting each other since they compete for the same resources, magic. You would never give the enemy control over your units.
It’s an unnatural state for a being being corrupted by 2 different types of magic.

I don’t get how you can say that the only conclusion to go to for the sylvari’s “immunity” is to be corrupted already.
Why is it logical? We even see that it can happen twice.
1. We don’t know what mental changes happen. Plus, people can have two masters, two people they listen to. If you read manga, the manga “History’s Strongest Disciple Kenichi” actually just introduced a villain that has two masters who give somewhat contradictory orders and he still manages to follow both without disobeying.
2. There’s no indication that they’re in conflict. In fact, Captain Whiting’s words in Sea of Sorrows (I don’t have the book on me so I cannot quote but it’s near the end) states something along the lines (again, cannot quote word for word) that “the time of the Elder Dragon*s* is near.” He explicitly mentions dragon*s* – plural. Furthermore, the human nations of the world all compete for the resources – America and England both need oil, etc. yet we’re not all at each others’ throats.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

  1. Source? Why can’t the sylvari be a product of evolution. You’re making arguments without providing any reason. You’re effectively pulling kitten out of your kitten .
  2. Because its manifestation comes from the surroundings, as shown in the tutorial – think of it like the Titans from GW1, whom hold the same base appearance (large three-legged beasts) but their appearance changes based on the surroundings. Just like how the first emblem appears to be made from water (iirc).
  3. Which doesn’t refuse that it can happen. And your earlier mentions of them fighting is outright wrong (Tamias doesn’t even say this). Though they’re in the same zone, they never once cross paths. So of course there won’t be hybrids in the open world yet.
  4. Which relates to sylvari, how? They can leave the Dream. And “not all sylvari are tied to it in the first place;:”wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malyck furthermore, there are non-sylvari tied to it. Furthermore, who says something has to control the Dream. Think about it. Who controls Tyria? No one. Who controls the Mists? No one. So why must someone control the Dream, which like Tyria and the Mists is an actual location one can travel to? And even IF someone does control the Dream – an assumption you create from nothing – why must it be an Elder Dragon? Why can’t it be a Spirit of the Wild? Why can’t it be that Tyria itself is sentient (as both Captain Whiting and the Pale Tree implies that the land holds sentience)? Why can’t it be that it’s just the domain of a forest spirit like Urgoz? Why do you presume the only possibility is an Elder Dragon? You just state one thing, then leap a dozen feet to “Elder Dragon!” without providing a connection between the two.
  5. Right, so why just suddenly leap to Elder Dragons? You admit you know don’t know, so “Elder Dragons!” is it then?
  6. Not all insanity can be cured. And even in the cured cases, they aren’t back to how they were originally. And why do you even know they have a destiny – there’s no evidence for anything but what they all innately feel – the call to fight the Elder Dragon. Courtier or Dream, all sylvari fight the Elder Dragons. So this means they’re minions of them? What?
  7. Wrong. The Pale Tree predates Ventari’s Tablet. The Dream predates the Pale Tree. The Pale Tree’s ties to the Dream by all indications predates the Ventari’s Tablet as well. So your conclusion makes no sense.
  8. “previous nine” – come again?
  9. So then why does Malyck hold no Dream? Why does the Dream tie to the White Stag? Why is the Dream a physical location? Maybe it being tied to the Pale Tree is why it is “forced onto” the sylvari, and it is the Pale Tree that could accept or deny it. Why must there be some mysterious entity forcing the Dream on the sylvari in the first place? Maybe they’re tied to it because they’re magical and living in the Maguuma which itself is known to be magical (for multiple reasons).
  10. The Inquest want the Elder Dragons to ravage the land so that they can return afterwards (believing they can survive the Elder Dragons) so that they can rule the renewing world. There’s one group who benefits from the waking of an Elder Dragon. This is also an act that the mursaat attempted, too. There’s another group, if they still live (which we’re told there are future plans for them so it’s likely they do). And wrong about the entity always being with her. What Vorpp says is that everything in the machine was what she brought with her, meaning not that it was “always with her” but rather that it was “with her at that time”. There is a VERY big difference on this.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

There is however still some flaws with your explanation. Why is the Nightmare Court agressive against all other creatures? Why do they all behave “bad”? It’s not like you can’t hate when following Ventari’s Teachings.

They’re not aggressive against all creatures. For example, they’re allied with Inquest and Bandits in Brisban (and make deals with Inquest in Sparkfly). And their aggressiveness that exists is there to spread negative emotions into the Dream of Dreams, ergo spreading the Nightmare (as that is what the Nightmare is – negative emotions and memories within the Dream – as explicitly stated already ).

And not all Courtiers act ‘bad’ either

When we perform this ritual, Illyra stands directly next to the Risen Chicken used as a guinea pig. There is a noticeable change in the chicken as denoted by Illyra, but Illyra’s personality is fully unchanged.

She isn’t part of the Nightmare Court, so your argumentation is obsolete.

But you argue that all sylvari are dragon minions. So therefore all sylvari would be affected by this ritual. It’s what your own argument entails!

That’s simply not true. If you put the Shatterer on this altar, he would be cured, same as Glint got cured but his body wont change a bit. Illyra is a descendant of a dragon, thus she is immune to all other corruption. Yet she is not mentally corrupted. Hence, she isn’t cured because she isn’t infected.

Your argument isn’t making sense. You are effectively saying:

“Subject is A, thus she is B. Subject is not C, thus is not A. Therefore she cannot be not-B, because she is not C.”

“Descendant of a dragon” doesn’t exist. Minions cannot reproduce (another argument, one can argue, for why the Pale Tree and sylvari are not dragon minions). This is stated in the skritt storyline and throughout Orr in the open world – dragon minions can only reproduce if they were corrupted while pregnant. No reproduction = no descendants. Minions are not “descendants”, and “descendants” of minions that were corrupted while pregnant are also corrupted (see the various Risen Spiders and Drakes in Orr).

You are saying all sylvari are dragon minions, ergo they can be cleansed because they are dragon minions. If you’re saying that they’re dragon minions but cannot be cleansed, then this means that they’ve been cleansed. But you’ve offered no reason for why they could be cleansed dragon minions – you say that they’ve been created as “non-fanatic minions” (effectively dragon minions with full out amnesia) just so they can be corrupted later… though this makes no logical sense in tactics.

Your argument is condradictory and illogical in every meaning of the words. It makes no sense.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

We don’t know what the Nightmare really is. We haven’t tested to free a Sylvari from the Nightmare. You can’t just say it’s impossible just because some say it’s impossible.
Noone believed humans could be on the moon until we’ve sent people to the moon.
Just because noone has successfully freed a Sylvari from the Nightmare yet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And still, it fits into the corruption theme. They are just corrupted, their “backdoor” is opened. Mordremoth has just not taken control over the nightmare because he was asleep.

The shortest description is in math: nightmare = reality – dream

The nightmare is everywhere. I don’t say that you should believe my words, but there is no cure unless you delete memories and reapply the shield.

There is however still some flaws with your explanation. Why is the Nightmare Court agressive against all other creatures? Why do they all behave “bad”? It’s not like you can’t hate when following Ventari’s Teachings. The shield you are mentioning has to protect the Sylvari from something. What is the thread? It’s not bad feelings, that’s for sure. It has to be something humans have not since Sylvari are modelled on humans, yet humans don’t need this shield. I would say it’s the influence of the dragon but you may disagree here. However if it is the influence of a dragon this shield is protecting from, it can be cured like any other corruption of the dragons.

The nightmare court is less aggressive than expected. They basically catch their enemies and torture them to gain access to see the nightmare. They do not behave bad and that is what puzzled me. Honorable battle openings and at all very nice, except the tortures. They even allow their members to put up symbiosis with other creatures (like spiders in TA).

The shield I mention is more like a veil to separate other influences than the dream. The isolation device from Omadd separated her not from a protection, it separated her from all influences in Tyria, so she can see what is really happening. And with digging deeper I can name three higher influences which are happily active (but won’t do unless somebody else does). I put the human aside here, because they are part of another story (with an expectable comparable background )

It’s hard to say this is a threat and this is not from my perspective, but I don’t like to be lied to. Both sides in PS didn’t tell me what’s going on (one tried, but not really hard) giving me an indifferent feeling about the Pale Tree (and I don’t trust her anymore).

Emotions is a very good point. How to tell corrupted emotions and normal emotions apart? It’s a game surely, but never noticed that we lack emotions (our characters) and everyone around us? Kasmeer & Marjory (look closer)? Mind games, mind control, tortures, never asked yourself how a Svanir can corrupt a Kodan with simply talking to him?

Ventari’s teachings and Ventari’s tablet are different too, one is not physical, but the other is. Ventari’s Tablet acts as relay for greater power while the nice teachings on it prevents it from being perceived as bad.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

We don’t know what the Nightmare really is. We haven’t tested to free a Sylvari from the Nightmare. You can’t just say it’s impossible just because some say it’s impossible.
Noone believed humans could be on the moon until we’ve sent people to the moon.
Just because noone has successfully freed a Sylvari from the Nightmare yet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And still, it fits into the corruption theme. They are just corrupted, their “backdoor” is opened. Mordremoth has just not taken control over the nightmare because he was asleep.

The shortest description is in math: nightmare = reality – dream

The nightmare is everywhere. I don’t say that you should believe my words, but there is no cure unless you delete memories and reapply the shield.

There is however still some flaws with your explanation. Why is the Nightmare Court agressive against all other creatures? Why do they all behave “bad”? It’s not like you can’t hate when following Ventari’s Teachings. The shield you are mentioning has to protect the Sylvari from something. What is the thread? It’s not bad feelings, that’s for sure. It has to be something humans have not since Sylvari are modelled on humans, yet humans don’t need this shield. I would say it’s the influence of the dragon but you may disagree here. However if it is the influence of a dragon this shield is protecting from, it can be cured like any other corruption of the dragons.

The nightmare court is less aggressive than expected. They basically catch their enemies and torture them to gain access to see the nightmare. They do not behave bad and that is what puzzled me. Honorable battle openings and at all very nice, except the tortures. They even allow their members to put up symbiosis with other creatures (like spiders in TA).

The Nightmare Court isn’t agressive? You may want to replay the explo mode in TA again. While they have confederations, they still try to drive all Sylvari into the Nightmare. It is only logical to not kill Sylvari since they aren’t able to expand their forces on their own. They do however attack any other race. And taming pets is no clue for them being nice whatsoever.

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Posted by: Mist.6217

Mist.6217

  1. Are you kidding? The Sylvari are plants, Mordremoth is a plant dragon. Jormag is an ice dragon does that make everything ice automatically its minion? Your logic failed with that first statement.
  2. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fighting_the_Nightmare
  3. Please read the post from Tamias again. There are two different sets of dragon minions fighting each other and there are no hybrids. Will go back and check but as I said I haven’t seen anything regarding it before, in game or out.
  4. The seeds must have a strong magical origin. They are not natural and they are not the source of the Dream, which is a part of all Sylvari. Tyria is a world with magic. Finding magical seeds is probably more common than one would think, remember all the plant monsters from GW1? Gonna take a shot in the dark and say they reproduced similar to all other plants in the world.
    Emotions can’t corrupt you. The Nightmare can. It is using the negative emotions but the emotions are not the origin of the Nightmare. Emotions can easily corrupt someone. If they are willing to let that emotion drive their every action they are corrupted by it and have let logic and morals go in place of those emotions.
  5. The Nightmare Court has fallen for the Nightmare. They can’t escape, even if the would want to. They are both influenced and influencing the Nightmare, and through that, the Dream. All other Sylvari are influenced by the Dream same as they are influenced through emotions. Unproven statement no Sylvari to our knowledge has tried to escape the Nightmare. If it possible or not however it still isn’t a form of corruptions, as members of the Court still have free will in what they do, as in some choose to be nice about getting more Sylvari to join while others kidnap and torture others and force them into the Court.
  6. And the Sylvari are too since they are connected to the Dream and they can’t chose to be not connected with it until they “unplug” themselves. The Soundless unplug themselves. Yes they have to maintain their meditation to stay ‘unplugged’ but they are ‘unplugged’.
  7. Or he is just not connected with the Dream of the other Tree. That is an assumption. He knew nothing of the Dream meaning either his tree doesn’t have a connection to the Dream or he somehow lost his connection to it before awakening.
    The Dream isn’t established by the Tree, the Dream has to have a greater source. This source has to be more powerful than the Tree to maintain the Dream and keep the connection to all Sylvari. The Dream is in the Mist, from my understanding, NO dragon that we know of has the ability to enter the Mist, though Jormag has made attempts through the SoS.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Your whole argumentation is drawing circles after circles leeding nowhere.
As example: Ofcourse the Sylvari aren’t a product of evolution. They where born from a Tree just a few years before. There hasn’t been something like this whatsoever.
The next thing is the leaving the Dream point. They can leave the Dream but not because the Dream lets them. And the Dream is no actual place you can go to, that’s completely obsolete. The Dream is like the Matrix, as I’ve said before, and you can’t go into the Matrix. There is no kittening way to get into the Dream other than being invited by the Pale Tree. If the Dream would just be some sort of magical thingie within the mists, the Sylvari would have to establish a connection to the Dream but they are born with this connection. They can’t refuse this connection. And same with the Matrix, the Dream as shareholder for information is just a setup to hide the true intetion of the Dream; to gather information and influence the connected Sylvari.
And as I’ve said, I’ve not found anything about the connection between Melandru and Sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue.
Furthermore, your whole argumentation is based on finding a loophole in my argumentation yet you couldn’t convince with facts either.
At last, the things you mention are mostly flawed also and I’m getting tired of proving you wrong.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Your whole argumentation is drawing circles after circles leeding nowhere.

My argument leads somewhere. It leads to stating that you’re making assumptions with no basis. Which you have yet to disprove.

As example: Ofcourse the Sylvari aren’t a product of evolution. They where born from a Tree just a few years before. There hasn’t been something like this whatsoever.

Treants are born from trees, being trees themselves. Stalkers are very humanoid, though we don’t know what they’re “born” from. And honestly, in a world full of magic, why couldn’t natural magic effect evolution? I mean, hell, elementals come about from the land itself because of concentrations of magic.

The next thing is the leaving the Dream point. They can leave the Dream but not because the Dream lets them. And the Dream is no actual place you can go to, that’s completely obsolete. The Dream is like the Matrix, as I’ve said before, and you can’t go into the Matrix. There is no kittening way to get into the Dream other than being invited by the Pale Tree.

But you CAN go into the Dream, that’s my point. How doesn’t matter – and we only know of one way, but that doesn’t omit them from being other ways. The Dream is a place you can physically access, we do so in the personal story, so it isn’t like the Matrix.

If the Dream would just be some sort of magical thingie within the mists, the Sylvari would have to establish a connection to the Dream but they are born with this connection.

Why do you think that they would have to establish a connection? Maybe the Pale Tree establishes that connection for them. You are making statements that hold no basis in canon lore.

And as I’ve said, I’ve not found anything about the connection between Melandru and Sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue.

And you have yet to provide a single connection between Mordremoth and the sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue. You only provide baseless assumptions, no evidence.

Furthermore, your whole argumentation is based on finding a loophole in my argumentation yet you couldn’t convince with facts either.

I already provided numerous facts, and in fact I have been repeatedly providing facts. Are they fullproof? No. There’s none either way, really. But at least I’ve been providing support, while you’ve been providing thin air.

At last, the things you mention are mostly flawed also and I’m getting tired of proving you wrong.

But you have not proven me wrong! NOT ONCE! Nor have you given any form of evidence. You’re pulling arguments out of no where, out of your kitten able kitten !

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

Your whole argumentation is drawing circles after circles leeding nowhere.

My argument leads somewhere. It leads to stating that you’re making assumptions with no basis. Which you have yet to disprove.

As example: Ofcourse the Sylvari aren’t a product of evolution. They where born from a Tree just a few years before. There hasn’t been something like this whatsoever.

Treants are born from trees, being trees themselves. Stalkers are very humanoid, though we don’t know what they’re “born” from. And honestly, in a world full of magic, why couldn’t natural magic effect evolution? I mean, hell, elementals come about from the land itself because of concentrations of magic.

The next thing is the leaving the Dream point. They can leave the Dream but not because the Dream lets them. And the Dream is no actual place you can go to, that’s completely obsolete. The Dream is like the Matrix, as I’ve said before, and you can’t go into the Matrix. There is no kittening way to get into the Dream other than being invited by the Pale Tree.

But you CAN go into the Dream, that’s my point. How doesn’t matter – and we only know of one way, but that doesn’t omit them from being other ways. The Dream is a place you can physically access, we do so in the personal story, so it isn’t like the Matrix.

If the Dream would just be some sort of magical thingie within the mists, the Sylvari would have to establish a connection to the Dream but they are born with this connection.

Why do you think that they would have to establish a connection? Maybe the Pale Tree establishes that connection for them. You are making statements that hold no basis in canon lore.

And as I’ve said, I’ve not found anything about the connection between Melandru and Sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue.

And you have yet to provide a single connection between Mordremoth and the sylvari. Not. A. Single. Clue. You only provide baseless assumptions, no evidence.

Furthermore, your whole argumentation is based on finding a loophole in my argumentation yet you couldn’t convince with facts either.

I already provided numerous facts, and in fact I have been repeatedly providing facts. Are they fullproof? No. There’s none either way, really. But at least I’ve been providing support, while you’ve been providing thin air.

At last, the things you mention are mostly flawed also and I’m getting tired of proving you wrong.

But you have not proven me wrong! NOT ONCE! Nor have you given any form of evidence. You’re pulling arguments out of no where, out of your kitten able kitten !

I’ve never said I’m always right and you’re not. I’ve never said that my theory is the only one who’s fitting. Yet my theory coherent and the only thing you say is “well X could be also caused by Y, so you are wrong”, which simply isn’t the case. And just because you are repeating your theories over and over again doesn’t make them any more valid. Period.

(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

In a light in the darkness we enter the dream through a portal, but a world with mesmer the portal could just be a suggested entrance for your mind or anything else. Important is there, that the told future is not the same like we experience.

We never see Traherne in Jofast’s camp and get knowledge of the fight against the risen there. We do not meet the last king of Orr (which is not named in the dream) Reza in the royal tombs. We meet him in the artesian waters.

Interesting is that there is a distinct line between hostile risen and ghostly risen. Do two sides use risen?

After we leave the dream the Pale Tree says: “To know the future, even a mere possibility, can be a great burden. I am sorry, brave heroes, that you must walk this path.”. My impression of this mere future is that someone knows a lot and shows us his way to solution while telling us how horrible the dragon is. A cinema. Topic: Dream of Dreams; Producer: Unknown

And to make it complete we are getting asked about our greatest fear, which becomes truth along the way.

In retribution just two missions later the initial pact is forged. We suggest Traherne to take the post, because we get bombed with arguments and the urgency to act and we saw him leading an army with members of all orders in the dream.

And the horror continues step by step up towards a hidden assasination and even further.

The Nightmare Court isn’t agressive? You may want to replay the explo mode in TA again. While they have confederations, they still try to drive all Sylvari into the Nightmare. It is only logical to not kill Sylvari since they aren’t able to expand their forces on their own. They do however attack any other race. And taming pets is no clue for them being nice whatsoever.

This behaviour will probably change if Malyck’s tree will be found alive. I’m afraid that it’s dead. Torturing isn’t killing. Even Skritt are more dominated or catched than killed and they are not known for having a dream. All nightmare courtiers feel free and we cannot imagine why until we get the torture to release us.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I’ve never said I’m always right and you’re not. I’ve never said that my theory is the only one who’s fitting. Yet my theory coherent and the only thing you say is “well X could be also caused by Y, so you are wrong”, which simply isn’t the case. And just because you are repeating your theories over and over again doesn’t make them any more valid. Period.

You have just proven that you have not actually read my posts.

Because that’s not what I’ve been saying. I’ve been saying that you’ve provided zero support for your “coherent” theory (which I disagree with, and even if you think it makes sense if no one else does then it’s obviously not coherent).

Furthermore, I’m not the one repeating me theories, because I have not ever once stated my theory. I’ve stated facts and even linked to the sources of said facts which argue against your “coherent theory”. But as I’ve said, you’ve yet to provide any support to argue for your theory.

And now what you’re doing is attacking me, rather than my argument, and I can only believe it is because you do not have any support for your theory so you’re trying to defame me to make yourself look right – I’m sorry, but that only works in politics.

We never see Traherne in Jofast’s camp and get knowledge of the fight against the risen there. We do not meet the last king of Orr (which is not named in the dream) Reza in the royal tombs. We meet him in the artesian waters.

This is because as the Pale Tree says:

_Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye. _

What we see is not the future, but a future. It is a possible future – just like with the Infinity Ball storyline, where beings from the future (steam creatures, destroyers, and the PC’s future self) come from a possible future but the future.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

It still makes no sense for the Nightmare court to have been founded to fight the Dragons (Caderyn’s own words) if they were dragon minions.

And, as others have pointed out, Dragons don’t just corrupt one species. Jormag doesn’t just corrupt Norn, he also corrupts elementals and Quaggan. Why would they nightmare be specific to Sylvari if it was dragon corruption?

Because the Sylvari are the minions of Mordremoth. He could be the source of the mysterious seeds the Pale Tree has grown out of. Furthermore, Mordermoth was asleep the whole time, so he wasn’t able to actively corrupt anyone.

Seriously, if Sylvari were created by Mordy, then he’s a total failure as an Elder dragon. No wonder he’s been in hiding so long. The other dragons probably all laugh at him.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

We don’t know what the Nightmare really is. We haven’t tested to free a Sylvari from the Nightmare. You can’t just say it’s impossible just because some say it’s impossible.
Noone believed humans could be on the moon until we’ve sent people to the moon.
Just because noone has successfully freed a Sylvari from the Nightmare yet, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And still, it fits into the corruption theme. They are just corrupted, their “backdoor” is opened. Mordremoth has just not taken control over the nightmare because he was asleep.

We do know what the nightmare is. It is described clearly in the game. It’s the bad part of the dream. It’s a bad dream. That’s what nightmare means. I can’t see how you could not understand this.

We also know that the Nightmare court are opposed to the Elder dragons.

We observe that they engage in behaviour that is wholly a-typical of dragon minions. They are highly intelligent, independent, factional, and they have a twisted but still comprehensible moral code.

The nightmare court are still people, with their own motivations, viewpoints, and free will. Evil people, but still people, and not soulless husks. The Kodan believe that Jormag can only corrupt empty, soulless bodies (dialog at the end of DE chain in the path of starry skies), and the other dragons seem to follow the same pattern. Dragon minions are just soulless slaves. They don’t have their own opinions or agenda, and they don’t bother trying to convince anyone that they’re right.

Nightmare make no sense as dragon minions. The Dragon in the Maguma wastes has no shortage of creatures (humans, trolls, hyleck etc) that it could corrupt – why Sylvari, and just Sylvari?

The only reason to supposed that they might be dragon minions is that they are both plants. This is a simplistic view of the world, a type of voodoo logic based on superficial similarities.

(edited by Wanderer.3248)

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

  1. If it’s Zhaitan, why isn’kitten risen dragon then? And just because a character says it’s Zhaitan doesn’t mean it really Zhaitan. No god-mode narrator has ever said this dragonminion within the dream was a minion from Zhaitan.
  2. See my earlier post

It’s not a minion of Zhaitan, it’s a dream of Zhaitan. It’s not connected to or controlled by any dragon. It doesn’t look like Zhaitan because it’s just a dream.

Everything in that part of the dream is plants, and probably because the dreamer has never seen a risen dragon (or any dragon) the dreamt dragon looks plant like.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Okay, someone who’s actually willing to state his (or her?) reasons! rubs hands together

Most of the original ten points have been addressed, so rather than going through points individually, I’m going to address general themes:

Sylvari immunity to corruption: At the moment, we have no hard evidence that minions gain any special resistance to further corruption. It’s a logical speculation to make, but it remains that – speculation. The only times in-game where we have minions of different dragons even in the same zones, one of those are destroyers – and Primordus normally doesn’t corrupt organic matter in the first place. Furthermore, I don’t think there are many if any at all cases of any being being corrupted simply through fighting a low-level minion, so even if there were areas where minions were attacking one another, a lack of cross-corruption does not mean it is impossible.

Meanwhile, we do have evidence suggesting that cross-corruption is possible, in CoE. You could call that unusual circumstances, but at the bottom line, we have one solid piece of evidence indicating that cross-corruption is possible (whether this requires special circumstances is unknown), and zero solid pieces of evidence that cross-corruption is resisted against.

However, we do have evidence that magic not otherwise connected to the dragons can grant creatures and objects immune to corruption, and reverse the mental (but not physical) aspects of existing corruption. Considering that we have zero hard evidence that being a dragon minion offers resistance to corruption, while we do have evidence that one can be protected against corruption without being a minion… this suggests that such an outside source of protection is more likely.

To play dragon’s advocate here, this does raise the question of why the sylvari of all races were granted this protection. One answer is that, like Glint, one or more ancestral Pale Trees were cleansed by the Forgotten or similar magic some time in the past. Another – that which is, in fact, held by most sylvari – is that the sylvari were given this protection because they were made to fight the dragons. (A third is, of course, simple coincidence. Coincidences that are then reinforced by natural selection is basically how evolution works, after all.)

(to be continued)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

How could sylvari have evolved:

At several points, you basically seem to be saying: We don’t know where sylvari came from, or how they gained a certain trait. Being a dragon minion could explain this.

On the face of it, you’re right: It could explain it. However, it’s not the only explanation, and it’s far from being the best explanation. I’ve already pointed out, for instance, the possibility that the sylvari were artificially created to fight the dragons, possibly in the last cycle or even before – possibilities include the Forgotten, the druids (those vine-bridge seeds don’t seem natural either…), Melandru, the spirit of Tyria itself, and the ArenaNet 400-page lore bible only knows what else may be possibilities.

However, it’s also possible that they’re a natural species. Consider, to begin with, that while the sylvari as a human-like species is new, we’ve seen lots of sentient plant creatures before, and we’ve been told that the Pale Tree deliberately made the sylvari in humanity’s image. Humans had only been on mainland Tyria for about a millenia and a half when first sylvari were born, and the Pale Tree having only been producing sylvari for the last quarter century suggests that she may still be an adolescent as the species goes. Her ancestors probably didn’t have the opportunity to use humans as a template – instead, other plant creatures like the aloe husks, the thorned stalkers, the ibogas and other snakelike flowers, the floating jacaranda seed pods, all of which are suspiciously absent from GW2 – these might be the plant-monsters of Ronan’s cave and the aunts and uncles of modern sylvari. Sylvari might well have been among us all along… this is just the first generation we can talk to.

Alternatively, consider that on Earth there are plants whose seeds can remain dormant but viable for extraordinary long lengths of time, only sprouting when conditions are favourable. Which, incidentally, ties into their immunity to corruption – for a species that is immune to corruption when most aren’t, periods of high dragon activity may be the best times to sprout and reproduce. The dragons give them a period where most of their competition is being culled by the dragons, while they themselves are mostly ignored as unsatisfying prey by the dragons (although they may still be attacked if they offer a threat or try to protect something else that a dragon is interested in eating). Thus, the Pale Tree species’ evolutionary strategy may be to coexist with the dragons and then take advantage of the devastated competition after the dragons go dormant to spread as far and wide as possible, setting down seeds along the way that will not germinate until the beginning of the next cycle.

When it comes to the evolutionary advantage of the Dream: I’ll get to the Dream in general later, but evolutionarily speaking, close access to the Dream provides the young of the species with the ability to learn skills they’ll need in life while still ‘in the womb’, emerging as full adults physically and (nearly) mentally (our sylvari characters pick up their gear and go out adventuring immediately on waking). That’s an enviable advantage for a species to have. How they might have gained a connection to the Dream is unknown, but could be simply a quirk in genetics, but once it developed, it’s clearly a competitive advantage over relatives trees that don’t, whose equivalents to sylvari will either need extensive teaching or to be left to rely on instinct making them more animalistic than the sylvari we know (which brings us back to the GW1 monsters I referenced earlier.

(also to be continued)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The nature and origin of the Dream

Again, it seems here as if you’re saying that we don’t know the origin of the Dream, and a dragon is a possibility (yes, I know there’s more to it, but I’ll get to that).

One thing I think we both agree on here is that the Dream is clearly more than just a repository of sylvari memories. It serves that function, yes, but it’s bigger than that.

However, there is also reason to think that it’s bigger than Mordremoth. The Light in the Darkness personal story step has already been mentioned – in that step, whether sylvari or not, we physically enter the Dream and explore a possible future of Orr. But where did experience come from?

There are things Trahearne learns from that dream-journey… but Trahearne is one of a scant handful of sylvari that had visited Orr before the Pact invasion, and the only one that has visited it on a regular basis and whom is considered an expert. If the Dream is showing a vision of Orr that reveals things that Trahearne was unaware of… how did the Dream itself know?

The same argument, however, can be directed towards Mordremoth. Mordremoth was asleep until recently, we’ve already discussed the extent of sylvari knowledge of Orr, and we have no knowledge of anything else that might be a minion of Mordremoth having visited Orr after Zhaitan raised it. So if the Dream is part of Mordremoth’s minion control network, how did IT know about King Reza or the Source of Orr?

So what is the Dream? My inclination is that it’s essentially a very large fractal in the Mists that reflects the dreams and emotions of creatures that dream on Tyria. Because it’s reflective of a world that has both light and dark, the Dream also contains good and evil aspects, the Nightmare being the latter. Somehow, the sylvari have a particularly strong connection to it, and thus since they began awakening the Dream has come to reflect their collective dream consciousness more than anyone else’s, but it still has elements pulled from spirits of other races. Including that of King Reza, trapped within the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan since he was twisted by the Orrian dragon.

Now, going onto the Nightmare and how one can supposedly never recover: If we removed the Dream from the equation and had humans instead, we would have terms for this. Stockholm syndrome. PTSD. The observation – although I don’t know if there’s a technical term for it – that children who are abused are more likely to become abusers themselves. Falling into the Nightmare could be nothing more than a mental illness, one which possibly can be treated, but having been around for less than two decades, no one has yet found a good treatment.

Alternatively, it may well be a form of corruption, possibly related to dragon corruption. However, again, there are multiple ways by which dragon corruption can enter the Dream without the Dream itself being a creation of one. One is that corruption has crept into the Dream through the experiences of non-sylvari who are being corrupted, or even of sylvari witnessing a being getting corrupted (the latter, in particular, would explain why sylvari might be vulnerable to corruption through the Nightmare – the Dream is creating a reflection of draconic corruption, but it doesn’t know sylvari are supposed to be immune and sylvari are currently the race it knows best, and so it makes a form of corruption that specifically targets sylvari.

Another possibility is that it’s genuine dragon corruption, likely from Mordremoth… but not because Mordremoth created it, but because Mordremoth sensed it as a source of power and is trying to claim it. If there is a connection between the Dream and sylvari immunity, this might even explain why the Nightmare can bypass it – because it’s corrupting through the very thing that grants immunity. So why does the dragon corrupt through the Nightmare? Simple – dragons are one of the sources of fear and nightmares for all races within the world. Similar to how Abaddon’s first step to inflicting Nightfall on a region in Tyria was to create a mirror of that region in the Realm of Torment, Mordremoth finds it easiest to access the Dream through the portions of it that most closely resemble itself. The law of similarity in action, for those who are familiar with that concept.

(more to be continued)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.