Guild Wars 2

In conclusion:

As I’ve said a few times, one of the handicaps on my side of this debate is that it is impossible to prove a negative (except by proving a positive that requires said negative). Is it possible that the sylvari are dragon minions? Of course it is. It’s also possible that the sylvari were an experiment by ArenaNet’s knockoff of the X-Com aliens (coming in Living Story Season 6!) that were dumped with the rest of the trash on their last visit. Short of being given a full history of sylvari evolution that shows there is no possibility that they ever were minions, the possibility is always out there.

Given that the sylvari are possibly the race whose origins we know the most about, I’m not holding my breath on that one.

What we can do, however, is demonstrate that the evidence that has been presented for the hypothesis is weak and/or flawed, that there are other, better explanations for the things that the theory claims to explain, and generally that there are other possibilities that are equally or more likely to be the case.

We can’t prove that it’s impossible, but we can demonstrate that it doesn’t deserve to be put on the pedestal that some have been putting it on, stating it as confirmed fact or otherwise presenting it as the strongest theory. Yes, it could be true. But there are a lot of outlandish theories that could be true.

A very well-reasoned and at times, persuasive set of posts draxynnic. There’s a few things I want to pick up on:

Alternatively, consider that on Earth there are plants whose seeds can remain dormant but viable for extraordinary long lengths of time, only sprouting when conditions are favourable. Which, incidentally, ties into their immunity to corruption – for a species that is immune to corruption when most aren’t, periods of high dragon activity may be the best times to sprout and reproduce. The dragons give them a period where most of their competition is being culled by the dragons, while they themselves are mostly ignored as unsatisfying prey by the dragons (although they may still be attacked if they offer a threat or try to protect something else that a dragon is interested in eating). Thus, the Pale Tree species’ evolutionary strategy may be to coexist with the dragons and then take advantage of the devastated competition after the dragons go dormant to spread as far and wide as possible, setting down seeds along the way that will not germinate until the beginning of the next cycle.

If we’re thinking that somehow the rise of the Elder Dragons makes conditions somehow favourable to the growth of a Tree, another explanation could be that a Tree requires a lot of magic to grow. The Elder Dragons awaken when the world is at a high level of magic – what if the appearance of the Pale Tree is to coincide with that, rather than the Dragonrise?

What if the Pale Tree is growing on top of a ley line, siphoning magic out of the world? Sure, you could say that this is behaviour you would expect from a dragon champion, but if we think back to the original post in this thread, what if the Pale Tree is using magic similar to that of the dragons to work against them – siphoning all the magic out of Tyria for safekeeping, in the same way it was stored in the Bloodstone? It would also explain why Mordremoth is so interested in the sylvari. The sylvari could be the magnum opus of the races of yesteryear – the ability to hold magic, from the Seers, the collective consciousness and drive to fight the dragons, from the dwarves, and protection from dragon corruption, from the Forgotten.

draxynnic.3719:

When it comes to the evolutionary advantage of the Dream: I’ll get to the Dream in general later, but evolutionarily speaking, close access to the Dream provides the young of the species with the ability to learn skills they’ll need in life while still ‘in the womb’, emerging as full adults physically and (nearly) mentally (our sylvari characters pick up their gear and go out adventuring immediately on waking). That’s an enviable advantage for a species to have. How they might have gained a connection to the Dream is unknown, but could be simply a quirk in genetics, but once it developed, it’s clearly a competitive advantage over relatives trees that don’t, whose equivalents to sylvari will either need extensive teaching or to be left to rely on instinct making them more animalistic than the sylvari we know (which brings us back to the GW1 monsters I referenced earlier.

This isn’t a direct response, but this part of your post reminded me that when Malyck’s pod arrived, washed up on the shore of that river, Malyck arrived able to communicate and use tools. This is further proof that Malyck’s Tree does, in fact, have a Dream of its own.

draxynnic.3719:

So what is the Dream? My inclination is that it’s essentially a very large fractal in the Mists that reflects the dreams and emotions of creatures that dream on Tyria. Because it’s reflective of a world that has both light and dark, the Dream also contains good and evil aspects, the Nightmare being the latter. Somehow, the sylvari have a particularly strong connection to it, and thus since they began awakening the Dream has come to reflect their collective dream consciousness more than anyone else’s, but it still has elements pulled from spirits of other races. Including that of King Reza, trapped within the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan since he was twisted by the Orrian dragon.

A connection between the Dream and the Mists is something I’d just never considered before. And yet, we have the dialogue from the Path to Revelations, “An offering to those who seek, beyond the mists beyond the dreams, on distant shores of a land unwaking, answers there lie in waiting”. A connection between the Dream and the Mists has been hinted back as far back as Eye of the North!

It makes a lot of sense. It’s a theory worthy of its own thread, actually – reformulating all the lore we know about the sylvari in the framework of the assumption that the Dream is a part of the Mists – then the sylvari would be brought into the world from the Mists when they are born, the Pale Tree would be acting as a caretaker of the boundary, and…I’m getting ahead of myself, there’s not enough space for that discussion here. The quest, A Light in the Darkness, being a vision of a possible future, makes perfect sense when you think of it as part of the Mists, since the Mists is everything that ever has been and everything that ever will (or might) be.

So, this would be saying that there’s a part of the Mists that the sylvari have a strong connection to, and it shows them visions of a possible future, and sends them into the world to try and make that future happen. That would be the Wyld Hunts, etc.. But there is still a collective “purpose” to the sylvari, as a race, and although you say that it’s bigger than Mordremoth, I still can’t shake the feeling that it’s very much tied to the Elder Dragons. When inside Omadd’s Isolation Module, for example, Scarlet travels into her own mind and finds herself in the Dream. And there she encounters Mordremoth. What that tells us about the sylvari is that Mordremoth is something very intrinsic to them, biologically speaking.

I’m not saying that this means that the sylvari are dragon minions! But it has to be explained somehow, and as in the OP, I believe it is because the sylvari are born from the same magic as dragon minions (this doesn’t preclude them from originating in the Mists, incidentally – Jormag’s minions use Mists portals all the time, so we know that Elder Dragons aren’t uniquely Tyrian). What we really need to do is nail down the nature of the relationship between the Elder Dragons, magic, and the Mists. Can magic flow freely between Tyria and the Mists? That can’t be the case, otherwise the Elder Dragons would have an unlimited source of magic and the world would never be reduced to a low level of magic, and the Dragons would never go to sleep. And yet, it seems that ley lines do flow between Tyria and the Mists, as Scarlet placed her energy probes throughout the Mists as well.

The one, big thing that all this has yet to address is that, even with a careful reading with all the theories in mind, the short story What Scarlet Saw still makes zero sense! The Pale Tree’s words: “In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them”. What does that mean? The “forces that shape us” here cannot possibly refer to the Mists – in this context, the thing that is being “unleashed” (and thus, the forces that shape the sylvari) must be somehow sentient, something with intention. And you can see now why people believe that the sylvari are dragon minions – the only thing that we’ve seen “unleashed” so far is Mordremoth, and so it’s very tempting to assume that Mordremoth comprises the “forces that shape” the sylvari (and Konig, if you’re reading this, I’d ask you to bear this in mind next time you all-caps, bold-italic “there is ZERO evidence the sylvari are dragon minions” at someone).

But even if Mordremoth is the force that shaped the sylvari, as several people have pointed out, why give them free will? That allows us to point right back to the theory in the OP – that the sylvari are shaped by Elder Dragon magic, but are not beholden to it – and given that they are compelled to fight the Dragons, it is a small step to conclude that they were created from dragon magic, in order to fight them.

Wanderer.3248:

We do know what the nightmare is. It is described clearly in the game. It’s the bad part of the dream. It’s a bad dream. That’s what nightmare means. I can’t see how you could not understand this.

I think you don’t understand me. The nightmare is the common state of Tyria, the dream isn’t. I like to shout wake up from your dream, but it won’t help. I don’t know why the dream of dreams does what it does, but it has clear intentions to use us for it’s long term goals in a reckless way.

Remember Scarlets army? Twisted Mender, Twisted Horror, Twisted Nightmare? There is a lot in front of our eyes happening that looks quite normal, but it isn’t.

The dream is the worst nightmare.

Tamias.7059:

A very well-reasoned and at times, persuasive set of posts draxynnic. There’s a few things I want to pick up on:

Alternatively, consider that on Earth there are plants whose seeds can remain dormant but viable for extraordinary long lengths of time, only sprouting when conditions are favourable. Which, incidentally, ties into their immunity to corruption – for a species that is immune to corruption when most aren’t, periods of high dragon activity may be the best times to sprout and reproduce. The dragons give them a period where most of their competition is being culled by the dragons, while they themselves are mostly ignored as unsatisfying prey by the dragons (although they may still be attacked if they offer a threat or try to protect something else that a dragon is interested in eating). Thus, the Pale Tree species’ evolutionary strategy may be to coexist with the dragons and then take advantage of the devastated competition after the dragons go dormant to spread as far and wide as possible, setting down seeds along the way that will not germinate until the beginning of the next cycle.

If we’re thinking that somehow the rise of the Elder Dragons makes conditions somehow favourable to the growth of a Tree, another explanation could be that a Tree requires a lot of magic to grow. The Elder Dragons awaken when the world is at a high level of magic – what if the appearance of the Pale Tree is to coincide with that, rather than the Dragonrise?

What if the Pale Tree is growing on top of a ley line, siphoning magic out of the world? Sure, you could say that this is behaviour you would expect from a dragon champion, but if we think back to the original post in this thread, what if the Pale Tree is using magic similar to that of the dragons to work against them – siphoning all the magic out of Tyria for safekeeping, in the same way it was stored in the Bloodstone? It would also explain why Mordremoth is so interested in the sylvari. The sylvari could be the magnum opus of the races of yesteryear – the ability to hold magic, from the Seers, the collective consciousness and drive to fight the dragons, from the dwarves, and protection from dragon corruption, from the Forgotten.

The first part is something I’ve been considering myself over the past few days, but I apparently forgot to put it in myself when I was composing the above series of posts. So thanks for reminding me of that there – I (obviously) agree that it is a possibility that the Pale Tree might herself be feeding off magic in a similar manner to the dragons (and converting it into an incorruptible form, what’s more).

That’s a very interesting theory there about the sylvari being a combined effort. To throw more water to grow the theory… the specialty of the mursaat is the ability to cross over dimensions. What if the Dream is part of the project, but was left incomplete – the mursaat was supposed to give the sylvari the ability to enter the Dream, travel through the Dream, and emerge elsewhere at will, but the mursaat figured out a means of ensuring their own survival and skedaddled before that project could be completed.

This isn’t a direct response, but this part of your post reminded me that when Malyck’s pod arrived, washed up on the shore of that river, Malyck arrived able to communicate and use tools. This is further proof that Malyck’s Tree does, in fact, have a Dream of its own.

Or at least something equivalent, yes. My general interpretation was that there was a similar education program for Malyck’s tree, but Malyck was isolated from it while his pod was floating down the river long enough to have forgotten it.

Tamias.7059:

It makes a lot of sense. It’s a theory worthy of its own thread, actually – reformulating all the lore we know about the sylvari in the framework of the assumption that the Dream is a part of the Mists – then the sylvari would be brought into the world from the Mists when they are born, the Pale Tree would be acting as a caretaker of the boundary, and…I’m getting ahead of myself, there’s not enough space for that discussion here. The quest, A Light in the Darkness, being a vision of a possible future, makes perfect sense when you think of it as part of the Mists, since the Mists is everything that ever has been and everything that ever will (or might) be.

It’d probably end up bigger than that, in fact – the thinking that leads to that is part of a bigger set of considerations and conclusions about what the nature of the Mists actually is, and the observation that the Dream does have many of the properties one might expect for a realm or fractal within the Mists. It’ll probably take some time for me to formulate the full theory – it’d be a big project – but probably a worthwhile one if I can get the time together to set it out.

The one, big thing that all this has yet to address is that, even with a careful reading with all the theories in mind, the short story What Scarlet Saw still makes zero sense! The Pale Tree’s words: “In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them”. What does that mean? The “forces that shape us” here cannot possibly refer to the Mists – in this context, the thing that is being “unleashed” (and thus, the forces that shape the sylvari) must be somehow sentient, something with intention. And you can see now why people believe that the sylvari are dragon minions – the only thing that we’ve seen “unleashed” so far is Mordremoth, and so it’s very tempting to assume that Mordremoth comprises the “forces that shape” the sylvari (and Konig, if you’re reading this, I’d ask you to bear this in mind next time you all-caps, bold-italic “there is ZERO evidence the sylvari are dragon minions” at someone).

I think the key question to ask here is… who is the Pale Tree actually referring to when she says ‘us’? The sylvari specifically? Or everyone?

Particularly in recent times, dragons are a force in the world that, to a greater or lesser extent, have shaped the lives, or at least the history, of everyone in Tyria. Those that haven’t been directly affected by them have been impacted or have benefited from the ways the dragons have affected everyone else.

In the bigger picture, though… Something doesn’t actually have to be sentient in order to respond to stimulus. As a very topical example, we saw a couple of weeks ago what the literal probing of a ley line could do. Magic – as far as we know – isn’t sentient, but Scarlet’s final act certainly unleashed some of it.

Now, when it comes to the Mists… we’re encroaching on that meta-theory of the Mists here, but the Mists are certainly something weirder than ordinary magic. According to legend, Tyria was formed in a spontaneous act of creation by the Mists, and the Mists continue such acts of creation even now – splitting off into relatively stable fractals and realms that (imperfectly) reflect parts of Tyria past, present, and future, and coalescing to form sapient entities such as demons (described in the Nightfall manuscripts) and (I suspect) other supernatural beings that dwell in the Mists such as gods and animal spirits.

Even the statement that the Mists themselves are nonsentient can be called into question. Certain realms within the Mists – the Realm of Torment, and the Dream if my theory there is correct – do seem to be associated with certain emotions, not just among the inhabitants but as part of the fabric of the realm itself, suggesting that certain parts of the Mists… well, they may not be sentient per se until the coalesce into a demon or other entity, but they certainly have emotion. And that emotion, in many cases, appears to be formed as a reflection of emotions in Tyria and/or other physical worlds.

So, what we have in the Mists is an apparently endless sea of energy whose main known property is that it spontaneously creates places, creatures, and possibly entire worlds, using pre-existing objects as templates. In the context of this whirlpool of infinite creation, Omadd took Caera’s mind, stripped it of all of its defenses, and opened it wide to the greater nature of the multiverse – a multiverse that, even now, is probably mostly composed of the Mists in their raw state as untapped potential.

So how are they going to respond to that? That’s something that’s incredibly hard to predict, but odds are that given a mind laid bare to the Mists, that provides a smorgasboard of, for want of a better word, inspiration for the Mists to create. Everything that Ceara imagined while within that chamber is probably now a fractal within the Mists. Every emotion that Caera has felt, every grudge, every success and disappointment, every idea and memory and fear and doubt and regret probably now has a physical representation somewhere in the Mists… and some of those may have been formed as sapient entities in their own right. In fact, the entity that possessed Ceara and drove her to become Scarlet Briar and do the horrible things she did… may well have been an imperfect reflection of Ceara herself, formed from the worst impulses of her own already immoral character and granted sapience by the Mists.

And that’s how looking too closely into the forces that shaped Tyria could unleash them. Without any sentience or sapience to direct them, without any consideration or regard for the consequences, and with unlimited potential for creation, the forces that shaped Tyria did the worst thing they could possibly have done with the entire contents of Ceara’s mind:

They took inspiration from them.

That was a very insightful series of posts, Draxynnic.

There is something that’s been bugging me for a while though, and so far I haven’t seen any good explanations for it. The Pale Tree designing the sylvari to resemble humans has been dev-confirmed, which fuels the idea that the previous plant creatures of the Maguuma were relatives of the sylvari, but then how does that explain Malyck?

Malyck is supposed to be from a different tree. A tree that has no known connection to either the Pale Tree or humanity in general. Why does he look humanoid? Why is he a sylvari at all? If that ancient aNet dev post about the Pale Tree specifically designing the sylvari after humans is still correct, then how can Malyck exist at all?

We know almost nothing of that other trees connections. So it may indeed have had interaction with humanity at some time in the past.

But addressing the other plant creatures being relatives of sylvari, keep in mind that there are a multitude of flesh and blood creatures that aren’t related to humanity. So

Malyck is also a bit different than all other sylvari – though it’s available in character creation, his face with his “antenna” is unique amongst sylvari NPCs, and since Anet went out of the way to make all NPCs appearances available to players (and even new faces/hairstyles eventually get added to the style kits), it’s hard to say how canon it owuld be to argue “any sylvari could have those.”

Besides, there are plenty of human-like beings out there. And not to mention that there are humans west of Rata Sum (well, possibly… White Mantle).

Malyck is slightly different. The pods are growing in the roots, which is good indication that his tree is already dead or had a huge impact. Caithe mentions that he shouldn’t be so close to the grove. I tried to follow the stream to see where it rises and it looks like it comes from the top of Skrittsburgh and it’s the highest area around. If there is/was a sylvari tree then we should know about it. A huge explosion could have thrown the pod across the map from next possible location, which is Thaumanova.

Malycks appearance is slightly different, but still human shaped. We’ve never seen a female sylvari from his tree and we’ve never seen a nonhazardous sylvari from this tree. The only thing we learn from him is, that sylvari don’t need Ventari’s tablet.

GW2 has a problem with believable contiguous waterways in general – it comes of having each zone surrounded by mountains and being unable to use rivers as natural boundaries (as was occasionally done in GW1) because rivers can be swum across now. They’ve made token efforts, but it was a plot point in GW1 that a major river flowed from the marshes south of the Henge and emptied out through what is now Caledon.

Want to try finding that now?

However, we do have a series of pools and wetlands in about the right places. It’s conceivable that the river does exist, either during flooding in Tyria’s wet season, or because it has stretches where it flows underground (and we aren’t given access to those stretches for the same reason Tyria seems to be mysteriously covered in rectangular impassible mountain ranges – mechanics over lore). The river where Malyck’s pod was found is in the right spot to be part of the GW1 river – it’s possible that according to ArenaNet’s lore it is part of the same river, even if they weren’t able to show this in the game world, with the waterway from the top of Skrittsburg being a tributary.

From a mechanical side it’s still possible to put a river at the border of a map and give other reasons to avoid the access to another map. The water in Tyria comes at several places from nowhere. It just floats out of stones.

In another post somebody pointed the unphysical water out. Orr rose and rose the water level all over Tyria and this is right. We have several places that show a lower level long time ago. Whole places are flooded, even Orr didn’t rise completely (still a lot of Orr underwater). Trees are growing in seas, but their roots don’t look like they were grown underwater. Tyria is drowning slowly (and one possible reason is that Lyssa cries and another reason goes towards activity of an unknown dragon).

Water is very interesting, because the sylvari in several places use primary water. A lot events and less recognized structures are handling water directly and indirectly (“There is something in the water.”). Pipes here, pipes there, pipes everywhere.

The sylvari who didn’t have a wyld hunt from the dream get their from the Pale Tree and most of them are somewhere working on growing things for which you need water and they clean themselfes from certain diseases with water.

Mechanics vs lore: the water has a lot attention.

If you zoom the map out you can sort if trace the river flowing out of the magus falls, through the ruined henge and out into the wildlands, then heading down to the tarnished coast.

I think its feasible that the pods came down that river, from whatever is south of the henge.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Malyck is slightly different. The pods are growing in the roots, which is good indication that his tree is already dead or had a huge impact. Caithe mentions that he shouldn’t be so close to the grove. I tried to follow the stream to see where it rises and it looks like it comes from the top of Skrittsburgh and it’s the highest area around. If there is/was a sylvari tree then we should know about it. A huge explosion could have thrown the pod across the map from next possible location, which is Thaumanova.

Malycks appearance is slightly different, but still human shaped. We’ve never seen a female sylvari from his tree and we’ve never seen a nonhazardous sylvari from this tree. The only thing we learn from him is, that sylvari don’t need Ventari’s tablet.

How do we know that the pods in Malyck’s Tree are growing in the roots, again?

I think he means that the “pod” used to be Malyck’s has roots growing. But I’d attribute that to being a reuse of the Nightmare Court pods from Twilight Arbor.

The sylvari pods from the Pale Tree are growing in the roots. Why should Malyck’s Tree be different in this behaviour? The are referred as fruits, but don’t hang in the branches.

But they do grow from the branches, and they drop down when the sylvari awaken.

I don’t know where you got that they grow from roots. The Pale Tree’s sylvari pods are from branches.

Sooo… am I right or am I right? The Sylvari can be corrupted by Mordremoth and it’s already in them. For now it seems like the Pale Tree is fighting the corruption (as glint was fighting Kralkatorrik). No clue if the nightmare court is the direct outcome of the corruption of Mordremoth but it isn’t that far off either.

Tl;dr of my claims:

1. Sylvari can be corrupted, the corruption is actually a part of them already but held in check.
2. Since they’re all already corrupted, already dragon minions, they can’t be corrupted by other dragons.
3. The Pale Tree could be a way of Mordremoth creating new minions, but since he was asleep while the Pale Tree grew, he had no influence on the Pale Tree.
4. The Dream could be a way of Mordremoth communicating with his minions. An indication for this would be, that the Dream is forced for Sylvari.
5. The Pale Tree could act as “the good one”, which tries to cure the land, while Mordremoth is “the evil one”, who is the origin of the Nightmare. An indication for that could be the fact that once a Sylvari fell into the Nightmare, he is not able to get out of it, like is no other dragon minion. This could be proven if we could take a Sylvari from the Nightmare Court to Arah and perform the Ritual. If it’s successful, we’ve cured a dragon minion from it’s curse, so in reverse, the Nightmare Court would be indeed like the Sons of Svanir.
6. Mordremoth corrupted Ceara, aka. Scarlet, to awake him.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Sooo… am I right or am I right? The Sylvari can be corrupted by Mordremoth and it’s already in them. For now it seems like the Pale Tree is fighting the corruption (as glint was fighting Kralkatorrik). No clue that the nightmare court is the direct outcome of the corruption of Mordremoth but it isn’t that far off either.

Well if you could point me to some of your previous posts that would help in me knowing your right-ness.
Although Sylvari can be corrupted there is so far no indication that the corruption is in them, or for that matter that the Pale Tree is actively fighting the corruption in anyway that could resembled Glint. So (lacking previous posts I’m going to guess as to your intentions) we don’t have explicit evidence of the Pale Tree being Mordy’s champ. Not yet anyway :P

EDIT: didn’t see your edit

A problem with you “being right” is that nothing says that the Pale Tree and all sylvari are corrupted already. The Pale Tree says that Mordremoth has stronger corruption, and that he works through cracks in willpower for sylvari, but that tells us that they are NOT corrupted.

And Glint was not fighting Kralkatorrik’s corruption but Kralkatorrik itself, whereas the Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons and their corruption – Mordremoth is just the biggest threat to sylvari.

That Sylvari are already corrupted is an assumption of mine and here is why:

1. Scarlet got corrupted while being in Omadd’s machine and it is told that everything she saw was already within her.
2. The Pale Tree says that she is protecting Sylvari from the dragon’s corruption, but she can’t protect those who don’t “listen” to her, aka. the Silent and the Nightmare Court.
3. Aerin got corrupted mid-flight and noone else got. So the corruption had to be in him already, he just hadn’t the protection the Pale Tree offers.
4. Basic argument: Dragonminions who are already corrupted can’t be corrupted by another dragon. I know there are multi-corrupted beings in the CoE story but that are experiments and can’t be found in the open world. So, assumed that Sylvari are already corrupted, that would explain why they are immune to other corruptions.
5. Another basic argument: The Sylvari are a very young race, they’ve been created by the Pale Tree which grew out of one single mysterious seed. I think it’s a safe bet to assume that the origins of this seed aren’t evolution based, but that the seed has been created by a powerful, magical source. And since they are plants and Mordremoth is a “plant” dragon, it could be atleast possible that the seeds are the way Mordremoth creates minions. We haven’t seen any corrupted human/charr/norn/asura either.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Each Elder Dragon seems to corrupt – when doing so directly – differently.

This is where I kitten my head and raise a brow. You say that dragons corrupt differently and yet have gone on to assume that there is only way to free a champion of Dragon Corruption based on the lore over Glint. But if each corrupts differently, then there must be various means to tackle said obstacle. Glint was a unique situation because Kral’s corruption doesn’t necessarily work like Jor, Prim, Zhai, etc. We do not know whether this was the only way further making the idea that the PT imprinted upon Ventari’s tablet, quite plausible. Maybe that’s not what happened but we do know the PT had even respect on Ventari specifically that it either pulled his soul or created a mirror copy – I’m inclined to believe the later – into The Dream.

To me that’s very telling that corruption, not only does work in different ways as you say, but also can be conquered in different ways. Meaning that there isn’t just one solution.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And Glint was not fighting Kralkatorrik’s corruption but Kralkatorrik itself, whereas the Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons and their corruption – Mordremoth is just the biggest threat to sylvari.

As far as what can be told, that is false. Look back at her conversation, she stated Mordremoth specifically and doesn’t speak about the other dragons. There is no measure of dialog referring to the other EDs. You are taking a large leap in trying to conjure that point of argument. Why would Anet, who you claim in another topic as implying certain circumstances, not just explain that “Hey, I protect sylvari from Dragon Corruption.”

No, she says, “I protect you from Mordremoth’s corruption.” You can make up whatever excuse but this one is a blind shot in the dark.

For Reference

Well, my child, one thing you must never forget is that I stand between you and the greatest darkness you’ll ever know. A vast darkness intent on consuming all that we hold dear.
The bolded part I feel is significant. I think this is Anet telling the Sylvari player that this one such threat is not all EDs but later leads into:

When asked about Dragon Corruption:
Yes. In the past my children had been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created undead from so many creatures, so can Mordremoth’s corruption change you.

This is the only time she mentions another dragon, Zhaitan, in which she’s drawing a comparison. Keep in mind this is a conversation with a Sylvari player. This comparison is nothing more than relaying the experience the player had witnessed half way through the personal story and on to Orr. Sylvari Risen do not exist and she doesn’t say anything about how her protection wards off all dragon corruption – she states instead that Mordremoth has significant domain over her people and she is protecting them from it.

You told me once in an older topic that you take what NPCs say (Kudu for example) but then you quickly have dismissed many people coming to post this same realization. As if taking it figuratively. To me, I see she’s specifically orienting her dialog on Mordremoth and not the other Elder Dragons. Otherwise there would have been no need to mention Mordremoth in the way she had done. Yes Mordremoth is the current threat but you’ve said yourself that the seriousness of Mordremoth is highly subjective in that, which we both agreed, he’s only been more aggressive and not the stronger of the EDs. She’s regarding him as a serious threat to them, which a non-Sylvari player do not get out of her dialog with her.

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Each Elder Dragon seems to corrupt – when doing so directly – differently.

This is where I kitten my head and raise a brow. You say that dragons corrupt differently and yet have gone on to assume that there is only way to free a champion of Dragon Corruption based on the lore over Glint. But if each corrupts differently, then there must be various means to tackle said obstacle.

I think you missed the point that corrupting differently is not equal to different types of corruption. Think of the corruption as a disease: You can get infected through the air, through skin contact or droplets. That however doesn’t mean that it’s a different disease all the time, thus the way to cure the disease could be the same.

The corruption is (magical) energy which gets injected into the body. The appearance of the body changes and the being loses the control over its body because of it. There are different ways to inject this energy into the body but the ritual could be a way to cure the body from any possessive energy.

You are right that the Pale Tree itself is protecting the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption, however the Pale Tree sees Ventari’s Tablet as order to fight all EDs. The Wyld Hunt is the way the Pale Tree fights the ED. But as you’ve said, Mordermoth’s corruption is different and get’s kept in check by the Pale Tree itself.

So to come back to your initial claim, that there are different ways to cure corruption:
The Pale Tree can’t cure the corruption but can stop it from spreading.

Now the interesting question is: If Mordremoth’s corruption is within each Sylvari because the Sylvari are meant to be dragon minins and if we cure a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth’s corruption with the ritual in Arah, does this mean that it’s destroying the corruption or does it just shrink the corruption back to it’s inital state and reestablishes the barriers which kept the corruption in check?
Does this happen to other sorts of corruption too?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Each Elder Dragon seems to corrupt – when doing so directly – differently.

This is where I kitten my head and raise a brow. You say that dragons corrupt differently and yet have gone on to assume that there is only way to free a champion of Dragon Corruption based on the lore over Glint. But if each corrupts differently, then there must be various means to tackle said obstacle.

I think you missed the point that corrupting differently is not equal to differnt types of corruption. Think of the corruption as a disease: You can get infected through the air, through skin contact or droplets. That however doesn’t mean that it’s a different disease all the time, thus the way to cure the disease could be the same.

The corruption is (magical) energy which gets injected into the body. The appearance of the body changes and the being loses the control over its body because of it. There are different ways to inject this energy into the body but the ritual could be a way to cure the body from any possessive energy.

To the same credit, you don’t cure influenza with vaccines of small pox. Better yet, you wouldn’t cure ebola with a flu-shot.

The corruption is (magical) energy which gets injected into the body. The appearance of the body changes and the being loses the control over its body because of it. There are different ways to inject this energy into the body but the ritual could be a way to cure the body from any possessive energy.

There isn’t a guide line, that’s my point. We’re assuming a law is fact simply because, not only do we not know the specifics of PT’s interaction during its “incubation period” but we’re using Glint which by all intense and purposes, dragon corruption works differently. Breaking Kral’s hold one way may not provide the same results if used on a subject of Jormag. It’s a logical fallacy.

Ronin.7381:

There isn’t a guide line, that’s my point. We’re assuming a law is fact simply because, not only do we not know the specifics of PT’s interaction during its “incubation period” but we’re using Glint which by all intense and purposes, dragon corruption works differently. Breaking Kral’s hold one way may not provide the same results if used on a subject of Jormag. It’s a logical fallacy.

Why? We saw in the render scene that the dragons are six parts of a whole, they where the same but colored differently. Each corruption is different and maybe the corruption process is different too but all corruptions are just magic (I like to call it energy because “It’s magic!!11!” is such an odd explanation), like an ele has four attunements, yet it is all based on magic. Foremost, the ritaul has already been used twice, one time to free Glint from Kralkatorrik and one time to free a chicken from Zhaitan. So like I said, all corruptions are a differnt type of magic (or energy) but the ritula is made to cure a being from magic in general, it’s a one-fits-all thingie. But ofcourse, we don’t know for sure before ANet allows us to capture a Son of Svanir, a Destroyer, a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth and, just to be sure, a Branded.

I disagree. I do think one practice can be used multiple times in various situations but I am far from agreeing that it is the only way.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

…it’s a one-fits-all thingie. But ofcourse, we don’t know for sure before ANet allows us to capture a Son of Svanir, a Destroyer, a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth and, just to be sure, a Branded.

Then stop treating it like absolutes.

Ronin.7381:

I disagree. I do think one practice can be used multiple times in various situations but I am far from agreeing that it is the only way.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

…it’s a one-fits-all thingie. But ofcourse, we don’t know for sure before ANet allows us to capture a Son of Svanir, a Destroyer, a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth and, just to be sure, a Branded.

Then stop treating it like absolutes.

It already cured 2 different kinds of corruption and there is no sign that it wouldn’t cure the other 4.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ronin.7381:

I disagree. I do think one practice can be used multiple times in various situations but I am far from agreeing that it is the only way.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

…it’s a one-fits-all thingie. But ofcourse, we don’t know for sure before ANet allows us to capture a Son of Svanir, a Destroyer, a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth and, just to be sure, a Branded.

Then stop treating it like absolutes.

It already cured 2 different kinds of corruption and there is no sign that it wouldn’t cure the other 4.

There’s still a lack of evidence to suggest that it couldn’t be accomplished with other means.

To the same affect we see Traehern use his sword which was not Forgotten origin and also managed to combat the corruption. Furthermore we’re told it was working and that Zhaitan’s influence of Orr was receding.

Ronin.7381:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ronin.7381:

I disagree. I do think one practice can be used multiple times in various situations but I am far from agreeing that it is the only way.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

…it’s a one-fits-all thingie. But ofcourse, we don’t know for sure before ANet allows us to capture a Son of Svanir, a Destroyer, a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth and, just to be sure, a Branded.

Then stop treating it like absolutes.

It already cured 2 different kinds of corruption and there is no sign that it wouldn’t cure the other 4.

There’s still a lack of evidence to suggest that it couldn’t be accomplished with other means.

Noone is saying that the ritual is the only way to cure the corruption. But noone knows how it cures the corruption so noone can replicate the ritual in any way, so it’s currently the only way. And the Pale Tree is definitely not powerful enough to do so. At best, the Pale Tree can stop the corruption from spreading.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ronin.7381:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ronin.7381:

I disagree. I do think one practice can be used multiple times in various situations but I am far from agreeing that it is the only way.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

…it’s a one-fits-all thingie. But ofcourse, we don’t know for sure before ANet allows us to capture a Son of Svanir, a Destroyer, a Sylvari fallen for Mordremoth and, just to be sure, a Branded.

Then stop treating it like absolutes.

It already cured 2 different kinds of corruption and there is no sign that it wouldn’t cure the other 4.

There’s still a lack of evidence to suggest that it couldn’t be accomplished with other means.

Noone is saying that the ritual is the only way to cure the corruption. But noone knows how it cures the corruption so noone can replicate the ritual in any way, so it’s currently the only way. And the Pale Tree is definitely not powerful enough to do so. At best, the Pale Tree can stop the corruption from spreading.

The mention of the Pale Tree has nothing to do with the topic at hand, we’re talking about origins and arguing why the PT was able to grow the way it did if it were true that the PT(s) are Mordremoth’s creations. This leads to the argument over what significance Ronan and Ventari had and whether or not they were able to influence the Tree’s growth.

I edited my post because I hit enter+tab too early. That being said wrong again, the Pale Tree did express she was able to stop the corruption of Mordremoth and through examples we see those that lose contact with the PT end up falling victim to his influence – just as she said Zhaitan can take the dead and resurrect them to do his bidding.

As stated numerous times before. Falling out of contact with the The Dream doesn’t make you corrupted by Mordremoth, so the Soundless themselves are not corrupted, but it does make them susceptible and thus far we have only seen Mordremoth accomplish this. Her influence is actually a crucial factor but if it were to address all the Dragons, why have we not seen Soundless fall victim before?

So first of, the Pale Tree can only protect from the corruption, she can’t defeat the corruption. Otherwise she would’ve been able to save Ceara.
I’ve never said that Sylvari are automatically corrupted if they aren’t connected to the Pale Tree but the corruption is, like a seed, already in them. The Pale Tree hinders that seed from growing.
The seeds the Pale Tree grew of was, based on my assumption, created by Mordremoth and meant to grow when Mordremoth awakes. However Ventari and Ronan planted the seed before Mordremoth was awake, so the Pale Tree had no direction, no order what to do. So she listened to anythink she could find and the first thing she found was Ventari’s Tablet. So she assumed that it was her destiny to fight the EDs she sensed.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So first of, the Pale Tree can only protect from the corruption, she can’t defeat the corruption. Otherwise she would’ve been able to save Ceara.

Protection generally, at this point that is, does defeat the corruption. Her influence just doesn’t reverse it. It prevents it from seeking root and spreading. Even as diabolical as the NC are, they themselves are still connected to the Dream and thus still under the PT’s influence. The NC is driven by an ideal, and despite the Nightmares origins or lack there of, they are still in some way kept shielded.

To clear that misunderstanding: Defeating something means to destroy it, to negate it. Keeping something at bay, keeping the corruption at bay is something very different and has nothing to do with defeating it. Despite this diction mismatch, we’re saying the same thing, even if I think that the Nightmare Court gets also influenced by Mordremoth, but more subtile.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To clear that misunderstanding: Defeating something means to destroy it, to negate it.

You’re misunderstanding. A player falls into a state of “DEFEAT” and by lore that doesn’t mean they’re killed nor destroyed. Stop forcing hidden meanings where they don’t need to be, at this point it’s just arguing to argue. By preventing corruption, you are defeating it and that’s exactly what the Pale Tree does for her children that are still connected to the Dream.

But as I said, we’re getting sidetracked. We were discussing the origins of the Pale Tree and how why or why not Ronan & Ventari had any influence on its growth; not how it combats corruption. You took this for a ride on your own accord.

Ronin.7381:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To clear that misunderstanding: Defeating something means to destroy it, to negate it.

You’re misunderstanding. A player falls into a state of “DEFEAT” and by lore that doesn’t mean they’re killed nor destroyed. Stop forcing hidden meanings where they don’t need to be, at this point it’s just arguing to argue. By preventing corruption, you are defeating it and that’s exactly what the Pale Tree does for her children that are still connected to the Dream.

But as I said, we’re getting sidetracked. We were discussing the origins of the Pale Tree and how why or why not Ronan & Ventari had any influence on its growth; not how it combats corruption. You took this for a ride on your own accord.

Someone who takes medicine to hold his AIDS at bay isn’t defeating AIDS. Someone who get cured from AIDS has defeated AIDS. That’s what I’m saying. If you defeat someone, he’s dead. You’ve ended his existence. But in GW2 there is a mechanic called reviving, that’s why your character is still alive, even after 4k deaths. That doesn’t take away from the fact that you’ve killed someone when you’ve defeated him.

Ronin.7381:

This is where I kitten my head and raise a brow. You say that dragons corrupt differently and yet have gone on to assume that there is only way to free a champion of Dragon Corruption based on the lore over Glint. But if each corrupts differently, then there must be various means to tackle said obstacle. Glint was a unique situation because Kral’s corruption doesn’t necessarily work like Jor, Prim, Zhai, etc. We do not know whether this was the only way further making the idea that the PT imprinted upon Ventari’s tablet, quite plausible. Maybe that’s not what happened but we do know the PT had even respect on Ventari specifically that it either pulled his soul or created a mirror copy – I’m inclined to believe the later – into The Dream.

To me that’s very telling that corruption, not only does work in different ways as you say, but also can be conquered in different ways. Meaning that there isn’t just one solution.

For Elder Dragon corruption, there are two halves: the actual thing that happens during the process of corruption, and how they go about doing it.

The “actual thing that happens” is shared amongst all Elder Dragons – because of this, all Elder Dragons can corrupt in the same manner, but for some reason (a reason I like to describe as “choosing to”) they corrupt in different manners. That shared bit is – to use Gorr’s words – that they consume, corrupt, then return the (now corrupted) magic to the victim to create a minion. How they do this changes, but this is what all Elder Dragons do. Just like how what the Elder Dragons corrupt changes due to their “choice” when we see that their corruption can corrupt anything equally (just as we see Zhaitan’s corruption afflict living, dead, inanimate, and plant, but Zhaitan and the risen directly only corrupt the dead).

What the ritual does is remove the mental alteration that comes with corruption – another thing shared amongst all Elder Dragons – and not the corruption itself. Rather, what it does is return (or give in the case of inanimate objects being corrupted and made mobile ala destroyers – or so all indications would claim) free will so that the minion can chose whether or not to listen to the mental alteration (a forced fanaticism) that the corruption gave.

Furthermore, I can say that there is only one means of freeing corruption because that’s all that’s ever been hinted at let alone confirmed in the lore of the game, while we see these different means of corrupting and different targets of corruption. Even in a recent interview, it was said that means of preventing corruption are so non-existent because the act of corruption isn’t understood.

This doesn’t mean that other means can’t exist, just that they currently don’t. It’s a plot point throughout the entire game that corruption is irreversible, and we’ve only been given a single immensely rare alternative.

Furthermore, in both the ritual and the interview’s explanation, it is a requirement of magic to reverse the corruption – something that a mere piece of stone utterly lacks.

The mentioned interview, by the way, can be found here.

The magic Elder Dragons use to corrupt things is ancient, powerful, and barely understood by the greatest magical minds on Tyria. There have been spells that could successfully cleanse a living thing of dragon corruption (see the Ruined City of Arah dungeon’s Forgotten path, or the climax of the Pact’s campaign in Orr) but they are not well understood, require significant resources to cast, and must be cast in a particular geographic location, so they are not universally available.

There may be alternative means, but it requires ancient and not-understood magics with great resources and certain geographical locations – unless it is the Dream, the Pale Tree lacks all of these.

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And Glint was not fighting Kralkatorrik’s corruption but Kralkatorrik itself, whereas the Pale Tree is fighting all Elder Dragons and their corruption – Mordremoth is just the biggest threat to sylvari.

As far as what can be told, that is false. Look back at her conversation, she stated Mordremoth specifically and doesn’t speak about the other dragons. There is no measure of dialog referring to the other EDs. You are taking a large leap in trying to conjure that point of argument. Why would Anet, who you claim in another topic as implying certain circumstances, not just explain that “Hey, I protect sylvari from Dragon Corruption.”

No, she says, “I protect you from Mordremoth’s corruption.” You can make up whatever excuse but this one is a blind shot in the dark.

I point back to even older lore that’s been known for quite some time: the Pale Reavers. Or rather, why they were formed. Sylvari are “immune” to dragon corruption – from ALL dragon corruption. The Pale Tree mention Mordremoth because he’s the dragon being talked about but as we are told in Marching Orders the sylvari are immune to becoming risen, and as we were told with sylvari lore introduction this is true for all Elder Dragons’ corruption too, with specific mentions of Zhaitan’s and Kralkatorrik’s. The Pale Tree confirmed being the reason why she’s protecting against Mordremoth’s corruption, and there’s protection against all Elder Dragons. Put two and two together and you get…

As for the fighting all Elder Dragons, we see countless sylvari receiving Wyld Hunts to kill Zhaitan (or rather, face his minions and corruption – only two are given such to kill Zhaitan itself) – and though not seen very clearly, dozens of sylvari receive Wyld hunts to battle the other Elder Dragons. Sylvari are called to fight all Elder Dragons, and the Pale Tree lends her aid for fighting all Elder Dragons – not just Mordremoth.

Everything I talk about here was known long before episode 2.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Pale Tree confirmed being the reason why she’s protecting against Mordremoth’s corruption, and there’s protection against all Elder Dragons. Put two and two together and you get…

Wrong. Mordremoth’s corruption is specifically being pointed out just as how we learned that in Episode 1, she was corrupted by Mordremoth where as in the conclusion of Season 1 people were convinced this wasn’t the case. It’s right there, blatantly. You’re applying every Elder Dragon to him, I’m saying there would be no need to mention its name so directly if it was so simple, “I protect you from all Elder Dragons.” And then lead into a conversation about how Mordremoth is a threat based on its currently aggressive behavior. Again, this is a blind shot in the dark made by you with no evidence, just speculation. None of the sources provided Pre-Season 2 mentioned any specifics as to the why, you’re inferring erroneously that it’s because of the Pale Tree. When you meet her as a Sylvari, she practically spells it out for you in detail. She uses the concept of Zhaitan’s corruption on everyone else as an analogy towards how Mordremoth is a threat to the Sylvari. This I feel is a significant point being made in such a subtle way. You can’t pick and choose what commentary to take literally or figuratively based on your belief, or lack there of, a theory; logical fallacies get us nowhere.

Tegwen: Because sylvari are immune to the curse of undeath, we’ve been given this dangerous mission. If we fail, we won’t rise again.

Pretty much speaks for itself and doesn’t refer to any protection, just that a Sylvari cannot be resurrected after death. This may have nothing at all to do with protection from the Pale Tree, rather the literal sense that a Sylvari corpse cannot be reanimated.

The Wyld Hunt is a vision of destiny placed on the individual. Just as the player, who we know cannot be corrupted because that would defeat the whole purpose of playing the race. Why have we not seen Soundless Risen, Icebrood, or Branded if the Pale Tree’s protection was removed or subdued. Aerin didn’t use Omadd’s machine yet it’s implied he was as corrupted as Scarlet (the player remarks he sounds exactly like her) and we don’t know if the Zephyrites had a machine of equal capability, therefore it is safe to assume such a machine doesn’t exist. This would mean that all Soundless are victims and yet none of them have been made targets by other Elder Dragons for corruptions.

Keep in mind, Scarlet’s “destiny” was to learn prior to her losing her sanity. Not all Wyld Hunts involve fighting the Dragons, those select few Valiants who take it upon themselves, lead a charge with those who share and agree to the motives. But the Wyld Hunt is just that, a path one feels compelled to follow and see to its fruition.

Wyld Hunts are described by sylvari as being like an itching feeling at the back of the neck that you cannot scratch until fulfilling the Wyld Hunt.

Source

It mentions nothing to seeing the destruction of the Elder Dragons. This is a player’s unique perspective and a ticket to get them into the game. Likewise, where I may support a particular proposition, so too might others. That doesn’t mean the destruction of EDs is universal to all Wyld Hunts. Hence my point, those very same situations you cite are unique and subjective, we don’t get a full on resume of each individual Sylvari within a group aiding us in destroying Zhaitan.

As far as we know, no other dragon has tried corrupting Soundless. While there’s a potential for the Weeping Isle to come under threat by Risen, as far as we know that threat has never eventuated.

At the moment, we know the following things:

1) The Pale Tree provides protection against sylvari being corrupted by Mordremoth.

2) Mordremoth corrupts Soundless sylvari in preference to other targets.

3) It is possible for a minion to be corrupted by power from another dragon.

4) Once something becomes a full-on minion, the only known way to reverse that is the Forgotten ritual.

All else is speculation. On number 1 – the discussion above shows that the Pale Tree’s dialogue is open to interpretation. It could well be that the Pale Tree protects against all corruption equally, but she’s focusing on Mordremoth simply because Mordremoth is the threat at hand.

On number 2: Mordremoth is a dragon that corrupts plants. Sylvari are plants. Connect the dots. Sylvari being preferentially corrupted doesn’t mean they’re ‘pre-corrupted’, just that without their protection they’re favoured targets.

On number 3: The claim that multi-corruption can only happen in the lab is purely speculation to attempt to discount evidence against your position. We’ve had no places in the wild where multicorruption COULD occur, due to the lack of any locations where dragon minions mix. The Mordrem invasion of the Iron Marches might change that, as it puts Mordrem into proximity to the Dragonbrand, and we know Kralkatorrik is able to corrupt plants.

To be honest, on reflection, I think the revelations are actually pointing to sylvari not being pre-corrupted: if the theory was correct, then Mordremoth should really be claiming all Soundless, not just a couple that happened to come within its sphere of influence. Additionally, Scarlet certainly, and possibly Aerin as well, appear to have only been corrupted to the level of Kellach, not to full-on minion status as we see with Chief Kronon. The dragon is influencing them, but at some level, Scarlet was still fighting, and Aerin may have been too.

Ronin.7381:

Mordremoth’s corruption is specifically being pointed out just as how we learned that in Episode 1, she was corrupted by Mordremoth where as in the conclusion of Season 1 people were convinced this wasn’t the case. It’s right there, blatantly.

The Pale Tree is never said to have been corrupted by Mordremoth – and Episode 1 doesn’t hint to anyone but Aerin being corrupted, and even then it wasn’t confirmed just heavily implied.

Episode 2 also didn’t show any case of confirmed corruption of the Pale Tree by Mordremoth – nothing points the central orb to being the Pale Tree except Scarlet’s interpretation of the vision and as the Pale Tree tells non-sylvari players, what we players see is but Scarlet’s vision and that she’s the barrier not the center.

Ronin.7381:

You’re applying every Elder Dragon to him, I’m saying there would be no need to mention its name so directly if it was so simple, “I protect you from all Elder Dragons.” And then lead into a conversation about how Mordremoth is a threat based on its currently aggressive behavior. Again, this is a blind shot in the dark made by you with no evidence, just speculation. None of the sources provided Pre-Season 2 mentioned any specifics as to the why, you’re inferring erroneously that it’s because of the Pale Tree. When you meet her as a Sylvari, she practically spells it out for you in detail.

You don’t seem to understand I AM NOT USING THAT CONVERSATION FOR THE SOURCE THAT THE PALE TREE PROTECTS SYLVARI FROM THE OTHER ELDER DRAGONS. Bolded so that maybe you’ll read it this time?

However, despite this, you seem to fail to realize is that the Pale Tree does begin talking in regards general dragon corruption:

Well, my child, the one thing you must never forget is that I stand between you and the greatest darkness you’ll ever know. A vast darkness intent on consuming all that we hold dear.
->What do you mean, Mother?
There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
->You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
_*Yes. In the past, my children have been immune.* But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.

She doesn’t say at that she’s protecting sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption, but dragon corruption. From a “darkness” that intends to consume all (exactly what all Elder Dragons do). And she is in fact saying that Mordremoths’ corruption is the one Elder Dragon corruption that she cannot fully protect against.

I am not making assumptions out of anything, you’re just ignoring where I’m getting my support!

Ronin.7381:

She uses the concept of Zhaitan’s corruption on everyone else as an analogy towards how Mordremoth is a threat to the Sylvari. This I feel is a significant point being made in such a subtle way. You can’t pick and choose what commentary to take literally or figuratively based on your belief, or lack there of, a theory; logical fallacies get us nowhere.

Humorously, I could say the same about you since you’re picking and chosing commentary by taking only partial of the whole conversation.

Ronin.7381:

Tegwen: Because sylvari are immune to the curse of undeath, we’ve been given this dangerous mission. If we fail, we won’t rise again.

Pretty much speaks for itself and doesn’t refer to any protection, just that a Sylvari cannot be resurrected after death. This may have nothing at all to do with protection from the Pale Tree, rather the literal sense that a Sylvari corpse cannot be reanimated.

There is no reason why a sylvari corpse cannot be reanimated, and you ignored the second source. Allow me to quote:

While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold.

And to pull from the rest of the conversation with Tegwen:

Marshal Trahearne himself had the initial idea. Once he realized that Zhaitan can’t raise sylvari, he formed this squad to exploit that weakness.
->Why doesn’t Zhaitan’s magic work on sylvari?
Unknown at present, but the Pact’s top minds are working on it. If you ask me, we’re just too new to Tyria. The Elder Dragons haven’t figured us out yet.

Specifically mentioning Zhaitan’s corruption not working on sylvari.

Again, it seems that you’re picking and choosing your “commentary”.

Ronin.7381:

Why have we not seen Soundless Risen, Icebrood, or Branded if the Pale Tree’s protection was removed or subdued.

Because there is no corruptive entities near them (the closest is Risen, but even then we don’t see the two interact), and despite common belief there is still a connection to the Pale Tree that the Soundless have, as per this interview:

If the Pale Tree needed to speak to a Soundless sylvari, she could, but it would take more effort on her part than it would to speak to a regular sylvari.

So a connection still exists, it’s just weaker. And Soundless can become Nightmare Courtiers, too, it should be noted.

Ronin.7381:

It mentions nothing to seeing the destruction of the Elder Dragons. This is a player’s unique perspective and a ticket to get them into the game. Likewise, where I may support a particular proposition, so too might others. That doesn’t mean the destruction of EDs is universal to all Wyld Hunts. Hence my point, those very same situations you cite are unique and subjective, we don’t get a full on resume of each individual Sylvari within a group aiding us in destroying Zhaitan.

Not all Wyld Hunts are dealing with the Elder Dragons, but there are Wyld Hunts dealing with each Elder Dragon. I fail to see the point you were trying to make.

Ok, I am going to sum up what I’ve read or heard so far in this season 2, without sources because I’m lazy.

1. Aerin was a silent Sylvari and got obsessed by something. It got heavily implied that he got corrupted by Mordremoth.
2. It was said by Kasmeer that Aerin behaves like Scarlet, ergo Scarlet was also corrupted by Mordremoth.
3. The Pale Tree says that Sylvari are immune to ED corruption by default.
4. The Pale Tree however says that that’s not true for Mordremoth’s corruption.
5. The Pale Tree says that she’s protecting the Sylvari from falling victim to the corruption.

The fact that Sylvari are, unlike to any other corruption, prone to Mordremoth’s corruption, the fact that Mordremoth doesn’t corrupt any other beings, the fact that corrupted Sylvari don’t change their look, the fact that Sylvari can be corrupted without being physically struck by Mordremoth’s magic, the fact that we don’t see any being in the wild being corrupted twice by different ED’s, leads me to the assumtion that Sylvari are, or atleast should be, minions of Mordremoth.

The Pale Tree doesn’t say that sylvari are naturally immune. She outright states that she shields them from a darkness, and the PC asks if she means Dragon corruption and the Pale Tree says yes but Mordremoth is too strong for her to completely prevent.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Pale Tree doesn’t say that sylvari are naturally immune. She outright states that she shields them from a darkness, and the PC asks if she means Dragon corruption and the Pale Tree says yes but Mordremoth is too strong for her to completely prevent.

…

Yes, and if you read it, she’ll state – as I quoted above:

Well, my child, the one thing you must never forget is that I stand between you and the greatest darkness you’ll ever know. A vast darkness intent on consuming all that we hold dear.
→What do you mean, Mother?
There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
→You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.

She says she’s standing between sylvari and “the greatest darkness” and when asked if she means dragon corruption, she confirms. The dialogue outright states she’s preventing dragon corruption in a general sense, and that Mordremoth is the one Elder Dragon (that the Pale Tree has encountered/knows about) that she cannot fully prevent corruption from.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Yes, and if you read it, she’ll state – as I quoted above:

Well, my child, the one thing you must never forget is that I stand between you and the greatest darkness you’ll ever know. A vast darkness intent on consuming all that we hold dear.
->What do you mean, Mother?
There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
->You’re talking about dragon corruption. We’ve been immune to it.
Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth’s corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.

She says she’s standing between sylvari and “the greatest darkness” and when asked if she means dragon corruption, she confirms. The dialogue outright states she’s preventing dragon corruption in a general sense, and that Mordremoth is the one Elder Dragon (that the Pale Tree has encountered/knows about) that she cannot fully prevent corruption from.

… There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before.
… In the past, my children have been immune.
… as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth’s corruption can change you.

She is saying that the Sylvari are immune to any corruption exept Mordremoth’s.
She says that any Sylvari who rejects her protection is vulnerable to Mordremoth.
She outright states that Mordremoth corrupts Sylvari like Zhaitan corrupts dead people.

She is not saying that she protects the Sylvari from all corruptions, she says that she protects the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption.

And she is saying that the immunity is caused by her.

“I protect you, but some leave my protection.” → “Youre talking about dragon corruption.” → " Yes."

How can it not be any more clear?

This is the next best thing to saying “through me the Dream prevents corruption, but there are those who push me away, the Soundless, whom are vulnerable to dragon corruption, especially Mordremoth whom is capable to corrupting even sylvari protected by the Dream because his power is so strong.”

In different words, that is what she says in full. She protects the sylvari from corruption, giving them immunity, but she cannot do so completely to Mordremoth.

Thus is a tie back to the very original statements we got of sylvari immunity: that those born from the Pale Tree cannot become risen or branded.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You don’t seem to understand I AM NOT USING THAT CONVERSATION FOR THE SOURCE THAT THE PALE TREE PROTECTS SYLVARI FROM THE OTHER ELDER DRAGONS. Bolded so that maybe you’ll read it this time?

I’m saying there’s significance to it, the reason why she defines it specifically. I know you’re not using it, if you were you wouldn’t be holding your position because as person who takes things at face value, this would counter your entire argument.

However, despite this, you seem to fail to realize is that the Pale Tree does begin talking in regards general dragon corruption

I was the one who posted this quotes, I read them and I broke them down. There’s no failure here, I pointed out the inconsistency in the idea from the start.

She doesn’t say at that she’s protecting sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption, but dragon corruption. From a “darkness” that intends to consume all (exactly what all Elder Dragons do). And she is in fact saying that Mordremoths’ corruption is the one Elder Dragon corruption that she cannot fully protect against.

Wrong. The Darkness has to refer to the Nightmare.

I am not making assumptions out of anything, you’re just ignoring where I’m getting my support!

Assumptions are assumptions. Just because you don’t want to admit it, doesn’t mean you aren’t openly construing them. Fact of the matter is, you are.

Ronin.7381:

She uses the concept of Zhaitan’s corruption on everyone else as an analogy towards how Mordremoth is a threat to the Sylvari. This I feel is a significant point being made in such a subtle way. You can’t pick and choose what commentary to take literally or figuratively based on your belief, or lack there of, a theory; logical fallacies get us nowhere.

Humorously, I could say the same about you since you’re picking and chosing commentary by taking only partial of the whole conversation.

There is no reason why a sylvari corpse cannot be reanimated, and you ignored the second source. Allow me to quote:

While the other races may be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, turned into undead minions or crystalline creatures of the Brand, the sylvari are never turned. Those born of the Pale Tree simply die before the corruption takes hold.

And to pull from the rest of the conversation with Tegwen:

Marshal Trahearne himself had the initial idea. Once he realized that Zhaitan can’t raise sylvari, he formed this squad to exploit that weakness.
->Why doesn’t Zhaitan’s magic work on sylvari?
Unknown at present, but the Pact’s top minds are working on it. If you ask me, we’re just too new to Tyria. The Elder Dragons haven’t figured us out yet.

Specifically mentioning Zhaitan’s corruption not working on sylvari.

Again, it seems that you’re picking and choosing your “commentary”.

What you have provided doesn’t prove anything however. We’ve seen a spirit exist while he mocked the fact his body was being used by Zhaitan’s will. If a Sylvari spirit is drawn back to the Dream (which would be the only explanation) under this particular example, it wouldn’t matter.

Another point is Traehern says it himself in the form of speculation. “If you ask me, we are too new.” He simply doesn’t know the answer himself. For majority of the time even those closest to the Pale Tree do not know everything that the Pale Tree does. What’s to say that he himself is certain there’s any link. The purpose of characters in a story is to give a perspective, these perspectives are not always right – they’re based on personal experiences which makes the encounter organic. There’s literally zero confirmation in anything you’ve just provided, hence you are assuming something is correct because you don’t want to believe the possibility that others argue is even probable. It would completely discredit your aim.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

She is not saying that she protects the Sylvari from all corruptions, she says that she protects the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s corruption.

Exactly.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And she is saying that the immunity is caused by her.

An immunity that is feeble to Mordremoth, not the other dragons. That’s where you’re taking a HUGE leap of speculation.

How can it not be any more clear?

It actually is clear but not in the way you assume. Because she relates Mordremoth’s affect on her children by using the example of Zhaitan with the Risen, where no Risen Sylvari has ever existed.

This is the next best thing to saying “through me the Dream prevents corruption, but there are those who push me away, the Soundless, whom are vulnerable to dragon corruption, especially Mordremoth whom is capable to corrupting even sylvari protected by the Dream because his power is so strong.”

She DOESN’T say THAT. If she said “especially” then yes, you would be right. But she doesn’t. Instead, the Pale Tree points out Mordremoth specifically and correlates the relationship between her children to him by comparing it to how Zhaitan uses the dead – a reference but not an accurate comparison because Risen Sylvari do not exist.

Again, I propose what significance does a Sylvari dying before corruption takes hold have? The answer is simple, they can’t be corrupted by any other than Mordremoth which she so clearly illustrates.