Guild Wars 2

SPOILER Below! Cross this line and you will enter the SPOILER Zone!

As Balthy states “there is No Honor in War” then what does it truely mean to be a Warrior in GW2 if there is no Honor?

Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.

my main is a warrior, and his name is “balthazar fanatic” lmao. In the time of AB meta-farm, rolled a lot of comedy, when someone in the map chat asked for help with balthazar HP.

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

Again, subjective. And don’t call me boy, I’m old enough to remember the Reagan Administration.

The quotation marks around the text are there for a reason. Namely, because it’s a quote.

Feanor.2358:

The quotation marks around the text are there for a reason. Namely, because it’s a quote.

It was a joke, bro.

Valmir.4590:

Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.

This is my theory too. His line “They abated me, they dimmed might light… But now they will see me.” indicates a loss of godhood as well.

Whether it was Menzies+Dhuum coalition, or the Six Gods, or some new, unknown entity is unclear. But it does seem that Balthazar has been usurped but, like Dhuum and unlike Abaddon, survived his overthrow.

This event clearly demoralized Balthazar and made him loose faith in his old beliefs – not just about honor in combat, but also the worth of his followers’ lives (he was a very pro-human god in the past, and cared greatly about human life as shown with the story of Kaolai, the Scriptures of Balthazar in GW1, and the Orrian History Scrolls). He’s become clearly apathetic and hellbent on revenge, regardless of the cost to those around him.

i think konig is on the money with this, i have a similar opinion, i also think balthazar stole lyssa’s mirror rather than having lyssa be on balthazar’s side, all we need now is the answers to why he has been removed from the group, maybe their is internal conflict between the gods, maybe he wanted to get involved in human affairs again and was cast out because of it? it leaves us with interesting questions for the finale and the expansion to explore, expand and hopefully answer

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This event clearly demoralized Balthazar and made him loose faith in his old beliefs – not just about honor in combat, but also the worth of his followers’ lives (he was a very pro-human god in the past, and cared greatly about human life as shown with the story of Kaolai, the Scriptures of Balthazar in GW1, and the Orrian History Scrolls). He’s become clearly apathetic and hellbent on revenge, regardless of the cost to those around him.

Now he can be Braham’s patron deity.

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

So if someone tries to kill you, you won’t defend yourself?

DarcShriek.5829:

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

So if someone tries to kill you, you won’t defend yourself?

That’s called a fight, not a war.

Feanor.2358:

DarcShriek.5829:

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

So if someone tries to kill you, you won’t defend yourself?

That’s called a fight, not a war.

The only real difference is scale. If one’s homeland is being invaded by a highly aggressive force that’s attacking both soldiers and civilians, something very much not uncommon in human history, wouldn’t it be justified to at least try to fight back, to keep them from outright killing you and your loved ones?

Its entertaining how Konig attempts to rationalize Anet’s hilariously poor writing every lore patch.

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Its entertaining how Konig attempts to rationalize Anet’s hilariously poor writing every lore patch.

We talking about the same Konig here? Cause the rest of us see a guy that’s VERY critical of the writing (as he probably should be). There’s a difference between “rationalizing” and “just trying to understand what the fly kitten is going on in this clusterkitten”.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Its entertaining how Konig attempts to rationalize Anet’s hilariously poor writing every lore patch.

We talking about the same Konig here? Cause the rest of us see a guy that’s VERY critical of the writing (as he probably should be). There’s a difference between “rationalizing” and “just trying to understand what the fly kitten is going on in this clusterkitten”.

Yeah, I was actually surprised by Konig’s…acquiescence, I guess? He’s usually the first to point out the absurdity in these things. Even I’m thinking “dude, you’re not wrong, but come on, give them SOMETHING”.

This time he’s one of the only really subdued voices. Not completely without complaints, but generally accepting of this chapter.

Ehh, that’s not what I’m getting, maybe you and I are just seeing different posts (literally, not figuratively).

I believe that Balthazar was usurped and had his powers drained by Menzies.

1. We do not know the result of the war within the Fissure of Woe. (Check GW2 wiki)
• Menzies may have won the battle with his shadow army.

2. The GW1 wiki page on Menzies blatantly says that He and his Shadow Army were trying to take Balthazar’s place as well as his powers.

Why does Menzies the Mad dislike his half-brother Balthazar?
Maybe it could have something to do with him carrying the severed head of his father when he first(????) arrived on Tyria.

Tangent,
I feel we are being led to a FoW raid
- Deimos has a "shadow" version of himself and teleports us to another realm within the mists, which could look like a shadowy version of the FoW.
- It would be amazing to have Menzies as the last boss of a raid.
- It would also be a great way to cover/end the unfinished story of FoW.

"Ookook! Hail Badazar!"

The Greyhawk.9107:

Feanor.2358:

DarcShriek.5829:

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

So if someone tries to kill you, you won’t defend yourself?

That’s called a fight, not a war.

The only real difference is scale. If one’s homeland is being invaded by a highly aggressive force that’s attacking both soldiers and civilians, something very much not uncommon in human history, wouldn’t it be justified to at least try to fight back, to keep them from outright killing you and your loved ones?

Actually scale isn’t the only real difference. The real difference is motivation. Fights are fought for personal reasons, while wars are fought for abstract ideas like territory, ownership, property, religion and so forth. You’re giving an example of a personal motivation, a reason to go in a fight, not a war.

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Feanor.2358:

DarcShriek.5829:

Feanor.2358:

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

“In wars, boy, fools kill other fools for foolish causes”

So if someone tries to kill you, you won’t defend yourself?

That’s called a fight, not a war.

The only real difference is scale. If one’s homeland is being invaded by a highly aggressive force that’s attacking both soldiers and civilians, something very much not uncommon in human history, wouldn’t it be justified to at least try to fight back, to keep them from outright killing you and your loved ones?

Actually scale isn’t the only real difference. The real difference is motivation. Fights are fought for personal reasons, while wars are fought for abstract ideas like territory, ownership, property, religion and so forth. You’re giving an example of a personal motivation, a reason to go in a fight, not a war.

/Shrug
I don’t see it that way, not exclusively so anyway. I shouldn’t have to say that there of course been many wars that happened for kittenty reasons, World War 1 being the best (or worse, depending on how you look at it) example. But In the cases where there is a clear aggressor and a clear defender, the side that is defending itself is justified in fighting back.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Ehh, that’s not what I’m getting, maybe you and I are just seeing different posts (literally, not figuratively).

I am VERY critical of the ‘reveal’ and the character reaction to the reveal (read: the first instance).

But I am VERY intrigued and enjoying of Balthazar’s character development (read: the final instance).

I kind of have the view of “it started horrid, but ended great”.

Feanor.2358:

Actually scale isn’t the only real difference. The real difference is motivation. Fights are fought for personal reasons, while wars are fought for abstract ideas like territory, ownership, property, religion and so forth. You’re giving an example of a personal motivation, a reason to go in a fight, not a war.

Territory and defense against an invasive army are far from abstract.

I would have to argue on the side that there can be honor in war – this is more so in cases of fiction, where we have a definite evil factor and the war is a “battle of good versus evil” as opposed to “a battle between gray and gray” like we so often get in reality.

For example, the war against Zhaitan is very much not a thing about abstract and can be considered honorable to fight in – Zhaitan wanted to kill and enslave the world, so fighting against him, without seeking to usurp his power, is defending not only the self but those who Zhaitan would target (read: everyone). That’s a noble cause, and would be “honorable” in war.

But when you get things like WWI, that’s not honorable on anyone’s side, really, and even more recent wars like the Gulf War and the like get even more muddier.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Valmir.4590:

Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.

This is my theory too. His line “They abated me, they dimmed might light… But now they will see me.” indicates a loss of godhood as well.

To me it sounded like he was talking about the Dragons. He was giving us a reason as to why he was acting the way he did towards the Dragons, but we can’t be sure about that.

Based on his dialogue throughout, especially at the end and the fact he was absorbing the Elder Dragons’ magic (as clarified in the story journal entry), it’s pretty clear his goal regarding Primordus from the get-go was to take his magic and nothing else.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

Oftentimes, the home you are protecting is the one your ancestors killed others to take.

In any case, Balthazar and the whole human race are alien conquerors, they came to Tyria from another world and killed and burned their way to power.

Dirame.8521:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Valmir.4590:

Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.

This is my theory too. His line “They abated me, they dimmed might light… But now they will see me.” indicates a loss of godhood as well.

To me it sounded like he was talking about the Dragons. He was giving us a reason as to why he was acting the way he did towards the Dragons, but we can’t be sure about that.

“Now they will see me”

This doesn’t make sense if “they” are the dragons.

I also don’t think he’s talking about the Dragons.

The Six have willingly avoided getting involved in the battle against the Elder Dragons until now – why would he suddenly care about it? Surely if they were absorbing his power slowly and weakening him, he and the other Gods would have acted much sooner rather than waited until the moment they were weak.

His entire purpose for appearing on Tyria thus far (to our knowledge) has been to absorb magic. He got a chunk of it from the Bloodstone (which evidently wasn’t enough) and now a load from Primordus.

As soon as he he had enough, he left Primordus and our player characters to deal with those who ‘dimmed his light’. If he wanted The Dragons, he could have appeared physically right there and then and killed Primordus. Unless he also knows that killing Primordus will potentially doom Tyria, of course, but then he didn’t seem too fussed about Tyria….

I agree that he’s been betrayed somehow. His ‘There is no honor in war’ line is too deliberate to ignore as the God of War.

One question I do find myself asking, though, is why did he help us protect Aurene? I can’t work out what was in it for him.

Aurene is a tuppleware. Supposedly she should be getting the majority of magic the other dragons release upon death. Balthazar might have enough magic from Primordus and the Bloodstone for now, but thinking a bit forward it would pay off to keep Aurene alive (and somewhat trusting) if or when the dragons are dealt with (by us) and he happens to want to take another bite.

Quite a simple answer could be that Balthazar didn’t want Primordus to succeed in whatever its plan was (remember, Aurene was attacked by destroyers).

If Balthazar was targeting Primordus specifically for his aspect of magic, perhaps he didn’t want Primordus to become stronger before he could defeat him. Eventually Taimi’s device gave him an alternative to a direct confrontation, of which the odds of a ‘favorable’ outcome might not have been in Balthazar’s favor.

We all know war is bad. 99% of the time, it is just mutual killing motivated by economic interest and concerted by a very well guarded group. We all know this.
But wars still get fought, and soldiers still are convinced they are fighting in the “right” side. Why? Because there IS honor in war. Most of the time, honor is all there is in war.

The point is we don’t need to question if war has honor. The point is we should question honor, in the first place, because when it is not a grave mistake, it is a blatant lie…

I think people can argue all day about philosophies and honor, but I don’t think it’s really all that necessary. The takeaway from all this is that we have a God of War who no longer believes in war. He’s a fallen God. That’s it. Speculating on where there is or is not honor doesn’t change the fact that Balthazar is not the god of War anymore.

Squee.7829:

I think people can argue all day about philosophies and honor, but I don’t think it’s really all that necessary. The takeaway from all this is that we have a God of War who no longer believes in war. He’s a fallen God. That’s it. Speculating on where there is or is not honor doesn’t change the fact that Balthazar is not the god of War anymore.

In fact, the wiki or lore never put much emphasis on the honor factor in Balthazar, but a “suspicious” and violent God. This is not uncommon in Greek-style narratives of Gods.

Gods who do not mind lying or cheating even their own devotees.

It was Balthazar who urged humanity to engage the other races in battle and claim the world for themselves, believing the other races would fall easily.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Territory and defense against an invasive army are far from abstract.

Land only becomes “territory” when you have a shared belief about it. Territory only exists in our minds. Which makes it abstract.

Also note both the invasion and defense are never the reason for a war, they are merely means of doing it. Reasons are things like territory, wealth (also a shared belief) and influence/power (more of the same). Defense, in particular, is never done automatically, it’s done to protect one of the above abstract concepts.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Well he is right. there is no honor in war. Believing there is honor in war is nothing more then a fabricated lie to justify slaughter. It’s no different then justice partly bieng a brushed up version of vengeance.

For balthazar to understand this makes me respect him as a character. He truly knows the essence of war. He truly deserves his title.

That’s rather subjective. Many believe that there is honor is fighting and dying to protect ones home and people against aggressors. War isn’t always about two equally malicious sides trying to destroy each other. War is never really a good thing, but sometimes it can be a just thing. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing” sort of thing.

And it still brings the absolute worst out of people. U don’t need to be equally malicious folks to have a war. Look at the second world war, heck look at the first, look at several civil wars, look at the rebellions against the tsars in Russia.

Just because war is nessiary doesn’t make it a honorable crusade. U can have war. I’m not against that. But acting like it’s an honorable crusade is nonsensical.

ugrakarma.9416:

In fact, the wiki or lore never put much emphasis on the honor factor in Balthazar, but a “suspicious” and violent God. This is not uncommon in Greek-style narratives of Gods.

Gods who do not mind lying or cheating even their own devotees.

It was Balthazar who urged humanity to engage the other races in battle and claim the world for themselves, believing the other races would fall easily.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Untrue. GW1 definitely colored Balthazar as an honorable god. Even that line you quote isn’t lacking honor or being suspicious in of itself – not just because lack of context, or Balthazar’s line of thought, but because urging war with hostile races such as the charr is not necessarily bad, and he didn’t advocate the slaughter of other races, but to rule them.

Though Balthazar was more prone to violence than others, he was remorseful when he unfairly killed a mortal in rage and just about all of his Eternals that talk about Balthazar talk about honor in combat. Even the Zaishen Order, which in GW1 were solely for following Balthazar (and had expanded by GW2, despite their lack of appearance beyond a handful of no-longer-present LA ambient NPCs, to include other aspects of honor and combat in the other races), upheld defense of the weak against malicious forces and combat by honorable rules (aka PvP).

The first time Balthazar was presented as anything less than honorable (albeit prone to violent solutions of problems and having bad tempers) was from Gixx during the Durmand Priory Claw Island arc. But Gixx has equally showed that he doesn’t know much about the Six Gods either.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ugrakarma.9416:

In fact, the wiki or lore never put much emphasis on the honor factor in Balthazar, but a “suspicious” and violent God. This is not uncommon in Greek-style narratives of Gods.

Gods who do not mind lying or cheating even their own devotees.

It was Balthazar who urged humanity to engage the other races in battle and claim the world for themselves, believing the other races would fall easily.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balthazar

Untrue. GW1 definitely colored Balthazar as an honorable god. Even that line you quote isn’t lacking honor or being suspicious in of itself – not just because lack of context, or Balthazar’s line of thought, but because urging war with hostile races such as the charr is not necessarily bad, and he didn’t advocate the slaughter of other races, but to rule them.

Though Balthazar was more prone to violence than others, he was remorseful when he unfairly killed a mortal in rage

“When the gods walked Tyria a thousand years ago, the Ritualist Kaolai, an old man even then, challenged Balthazar to a game of Nui in exchange for sparing a village that had offended the god through some long-forgotten breach of etiquette. Balthazar laughingly accepted and the game began. Seven days later it ended with Kaolai the winner; the villagers were spared. But in a fit of anger, Balthazar slew Kaolai. Afterward, in a rare gesture of sportsmanship, the god ordered Kaolai inducted into Tahnnakai Temple."

Apparently such sportsmanship from Balthazar is rare. I also do not see the term remorse in their at all!

RabbitUp.8294:

Dirame.8521:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Valmir.4590:

Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.

This is my theory too. His line “They abated me, they dimmed might light… But now they will see me.” indicates a loss of godhood as well.

To me it sounded like he was talking about the Dragons. He was giving us a reason as to why he was acting the way he did towards the Dragons, but we can’t be sure about that.

“Now they will see me”

This doesn’t make sense if “they” are the dragons.

It makes sense to me. Especially if you assume that the reason the gods of tyria left is because the dragons were waking up. Then, having the dragons be the ones “dimming his light” is quite plausible.

Dirame.8521:

RabbitUp.8294:

Dirame.8521:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Valmir.4590:

Something tells me that Balthazar has been ousted by Menzies or another entity who defeated him and claimed the role of God of War, but in a not honourable way, hence precipitating him toward his current actions. At least, it would make sense of his behaviour.

This is my theory too. His line “They abated me, they dimmed might light… But now they will see me.” indicates a loss of godhood as well.

To me it sounded like he was talking about the Dragons. He was giving us a reason as to why he was acting the way he did towards the Dragons, but we can’t be sure about that.

“Now they will see me”

This doesn’t make sense if “they” are the dragons.

It makes sense to me. Especially if you assume that the reason the gods of tyria left is because the dragons were waking up. Then, having the dragons be the ones “dimming his light” is quite plausible.

I don’t think it was the dragons though. The way I saw it was it is heavily implied that something else caused the loss of Balthazar’s divinity. He is simply using the dragons as a means to regain power to get back at whatever caused his fall.

The dragons being the cause of the God’s departure just doesn’t add up to me. Primarily, chronologically. They physically left LONG before the dragons showed any sign of waking. They kept limited contact for a bit over a millennium, but cut even that off before the very first stirrings of a dragon’s alarm clock even went off.

Them knowing dragons were around the corner (and by corner i mean about 1200 or so years) is a speculative reason at best for why they left. But we don’t need speculative reasons. We have solid already confirmed reasons why they left, and those reasons don’t involve dragons.

EdwinLi.1284:

SPOILER Below! Cross this line and you will enter the SPOILER Zone!

---

As Balthy states “there is No Honor in War” then what does it truely mean to be a Warrior in GW2 if there is no Honor?

We can only speculate at this point… but Im guessing that Menzies the Mad, also known as the Lord of Destruction, (his the evil half-brother of Balthazar) finally defeated him… and maybe he got that idea after liking his wounds…

In GW1 while the players battle Dhuum and Abbadon I think Balthazar was battling Menzies, I think we got to face some of his minions at some point… That Evil Trio had a Pact alliance of their own against the Six so that means we could see at least Menzies at some point if my speculation happens to be true.

Dirame.8521:

It makes sense to me. Especially if you assume that the reason the gods of tyria left is because the dragons were waking up. Then, having the dragons be the ones “dimming his light” is quite plausible.

There’s no point in assuming since we had direct confirmation that the gods left Tyria not because of the dragons, but because of Abaddon.

Besides, they left over a thousand years before the dragons even began to stir.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dirame.8521:

It makes sense to me. Especially if you assume that the reason the gods of tyria left is because the dragons were waking up. Then, having the dragons be the ones “dimming his light” is quite plausible.

There’s no point in assuming since we had direct confirmation that the gods left Tyria not because of the dragons, but because of Abaddon.

Besides, they left over a thousand years before the dragons even began to stir.

Even if they didn’t leave because of the dragons, we know that the Dragons feed on magic. What if they found a way to tap into Balthy’s realm and steal his magic?

That’s one theory.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dirame.8521:

It makes sense to me. Especially if you assume that the reason the gods of tyria left is because the dragons were waking up. Then, having the dragons be the ones “dimming his light” is quite plausible.

There’s no point in assuming since we had direct confirmation that the gods left Tyria not because of the dragons, but because of Abaddon.

Besides, they left over a thousand years before the dragons even began to stir.

Yes, they left a long time before the Elder Dragons even began to stir (again), but as we’ve also had confirmed, “the human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria.”

What if their lack of presence meant their power still being present was being consumed as the Elder Dragons began to stir. Balthazar’s choice of words indicate his oppressors are plural; and I doubt he’d talk about Menzies and the Shadow Army as ‘they’ but rather ‘he’…

The way the Elder Dragons are consuming magic and reducing the presence of it in the world, could it not be a case that a consequence of the way the Elder Dragons function, this also affects the Human Gods, Balthazar possibly being the first God who has taken up arms in an effort to restore himself… We have no indication whether the other 5 are similarly weakened, and whether Balthazar acts alone or as part of their plan. He even says Tyria is of no concern to him; he doesn’t care if it blows up due to the death of the Elder Dragon because at least he will have his power and can “move on” to wherever the Human Gods would go?

Simply speculating; it’s just Balthazar’s wording of how he has been weakened that makes me think it’s rather the obvious answer about the Elder Dragons rather than yet another force we have not yet heard anything about so far… though expecting more revelations in the upcoming episode.

Late response, but…

Dirame.8521:

Even if they didn’t leave because of the dragons, we know that the Dragons feed on magic. What if they found a way to tap into Balthy’s realm and steal his magic?

That’s one theory.

All evidence has shown that the only Elder Dragon interested in the Mists is Jormag, and even he needed to hijack the Spirit of the Wild’s power (via havroun) in order to begin sending minions to the Mists. Zhaitan was capable of pulling a soul from the Mists – but so can necromancers like Priestess Rhie – so it’s likely he was able to do so via the powers from the Orrian priests of Grenth.

Dondarrion.2748:

Yes, they left a long time before the Elder Dragons even began to stir (again), but as we’ve also had confirmed, “the human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria.”

As in they left behind some artifacts. This old line, if I recall, is in reference to the statues of Orr and nothing else. There is nothing to make this “power felt in Tyria” to be a direct connection to the gods’ power that allows one to siphon and even drain the gods.

Dondarrion.2748:

Balthazar’s choice of words indicate his oppressors are plural; and I doubt he’d talk about Menzies and the Shadow Army as ‘they’ but rather ‘he’…

“They” is often used to refer to a singular, gender neutral or unknown, individual. It is considered more polite than saying “it” in such a case where the speaker doesn’t want to use “he” or “she”.

This is far from uncommon.

Besides, the Shadow Army is a they.

Dondarrion.2748:

We have no indication whether the other 5 are similarly weakened, and whether Balthazar acts alone or as part of their plan. He even says Tyria is of no concern to him; he doesn’t care if it blows up due to the death of the Elder Dragon because at least he will have his power and can “move on” to wherever the Human Gods would go?

Firstly, he never says he will have his power, just power in general. The same way he took power from the bloodstone which was not him, he took power from Primordus and Jormag.

His lack of caring about Tyria is rather proof that the other gods are not working with him, I’d say, given that Lyssa, Dwayna, and Melandru (and very likely Kormir and possibly Grenth) would all very much care about Tyria and its inhabitants – far more than the potentially xenophobe Balthazar.

And the lack of indication of the other five being weakened is more reason to believe that they haven’t been weakened rather than they have been. Unlike Balthazar and Grenth, the other five gods do not have enemies known to us, so there’s no reason to believe aside from “somehow the Elder Dragons drained the magic of beings who are in another plane of existence, despite showing the complete incapability of altering even parts of Tyria distant from themselves and their minions”.

Besides all of the above, there is one VERY important fact:

Balthazar shows, through his off-screen actions, that he is immune to being eaten by the Elder Dragons, or at the very least Primordus and his minions.

As he had spent time creating barriers in a mass of destroyers and in front of Primordus itself before turning on Taimi’s Machine. During this time of being in front of Primordus and his horde of destroyers which we know consume magic too the Pact Commander was going all across Draconis Mons searching for M.O.X., the elder druids, and destroying the first two barriers before Balthazar had activated the machine. Even if you argue that the third barrier wasn’t made until just before the second was destroyed, that is still time a weakened god had spent in front of an Elder Dragon before activating the machine. Enough time to be physically and metaphysically nomed on.

The fact that he survived more than five minutes while in a weakened state in front of Primordus itself before activating the machine – saying nothing to the horde of magic-devouring destroyers before Primordus – is proof enough that Balthazar has some defenses to having his magic devoured by Primordus, if not outright immunity.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The fact that he survived more than five minutes while in a weakened state in front of Primordus itself before activating the machine – saying nothing to the horde of magic-devouring destroyers before Primordus – is proof enough that Balthazar has some defenses to having his magic devoured by Primordus, if not outright immunity.

I don’t know. That argument suggests Primordus made some sort of effort to consume Balthazar, but the fact that the dragon was clear on the other side of a chamber the size of the map seems to me like there wasn’t such a fight. I’d think it more likely that Balthazar set up, waited for Primordus to surface, and then flipped the machine on before the dragon could close the distance; or else that Primordus didn’t take any heed of Balthazar setting up in midair on the other side. That could be because Primordus couldn’t sense Balthazar’s divine magic, which is the form of immunity we’ve speculated bloodstones have- but it could just as easily be that drained Balthazar didn’t have enough power to pick up on, and the dragon didn’t feel it was worth moving to swat a little bug hovering in midair on the other side of the room, or that because we only saw the tip of a snout, Primordus literally couldn’t see what was going on.

If the destroyers attacked us on sight (which is the norm for dragon minions), they would have attacked Balthazar on sight as well unless he had somehow remained invisible to them.

Furthermore, we’re talking about a powerful source of magic being right in front of a being who is after consuming as much magic as possible. For what possible reason would Primordus not attack Balthazar and try to eat his magic?

The only answer I can think of is either he was somehow distracted that he didn’t see Balthazar, which seems unlikely given the dragon minions’ hive mind situation we know exists for destroyers per GW1, or he simply could not attack or eat Balthazar’s magic (thus was “unappetizing” and resulted in a “meh, I don’t care” reaction).

Even though Balthazar is weakened from his normal state, he had an entire bloodstone that was charged by both Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s death. If destroyers swarm over small pockets of overflowing ley line energy, they’d swarm over Balthazar’s magic. And I doubt Primordus needs to literally see to sense the magic, given he sensed the build up of magic in the Ring of Fire from beneath Frostforge Sound.

And for the idea that Balthazar sat and waited for Primordus to surface, that would run contradictory to what the druids say about Primordus which is that he arrived at the island first, and had remained there; this was definitely where Primordus had made camp after showing up in the Ring of Fire (though given his size, he’s practically in Orr as well as in the Ring of Fire, somehow not collapsing Tyria as he moved ten steps southwest).

On possibilities- it’s possible he was distracted. It’s possible that god magic doesn’t register with Elder Dragons as a meal. It’s possible that Balthazar is now lacking that bloodstone magic, thus explaining why he wasn’t able to oneshot Marjory the way he did dozens of Mantle. It’s possible that he was in the process of attacking but the machine paralyzed him- more on that in a second. It’s possible that he couldn’t see Balthazar- more on that in a second too. It’s possible that he was ordering the destroyers to break the barriers and waiting for them to drop down on Balthazar from above. It’s possible the magic he had already come to the Ring of Fire to feed on was important to him, or blocked his ability to sense Balthazar. It’s possible that Balthazar, who Taimi admits knows more about magic than even the asura savant in the room, knew how to mask to ‘scent’. It’s possible that whatever the druids were dong to ‘balance’ Primordus was interfering with him. But his positioning does not look like there was a battle. The chamber is intact. His snout is barely poking out of the wall. Unless he was spitting flaming loogies at the god of fire, he was not in a position to attack. Sure, some of those are more likely than others, but we lack the facts to narrow it down to a workable field.

On positioning- we know he was under Draconis Mons. We don’t know he was in that cavern. It seems a bizarrely vulnerable place to stop, just far enough in to expose himself but not far enough to control the space. It doesn’t seem a good spot to stop willingly, especially if he knew a magically adept foe was present, as you suggest.

On Elder Dragons sensing magic- what we saw was Mordremoth’s energy dispersing along the ley-lines. To extend the river analogy from the other thread: if you notice the stream next to your house suddenly flood, and follow it back to a broken dam, that doesn’t mean you’re able to see the broken dam from your house. Speaking of Mordremoth, his tendrils did seem to home in on magic, but that’s not conclusive either when his main vines had already spread as far as the Iron Marches. Being able to find a small signature, even several miles away, doesn’t mean you can find a massive signature on the other side of the continent, not without assuming several things about how that sense works that we’re just not in a position to know. I’m not saying it’s impossible, in fact I believe it’s probable, but it’s not a solid enough case for me to be comfortable using it to rule out avenues of other theories.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

It doesn’t seem a good spot to stop willingly, especially if he knew a magically adept foe was present, as you suggest.

Actually what I was suggesting was that he was in that position then Balthazar showed up.

All the same, the fact that Balthazar had to spend some time in the very same chamber as Primordus and move through a horde of magic-consuming destroyers, without any sort of hindrance is very suspect. Even if you argue Primordus was distracted or not in that position until after Balthazar had set up, there’s still the matter of the hundred+ destroyers there, which given they were between barriers does imply that they were there before Balthazar was setting up.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On Elder Dragons sensing magic- what we saw was Mordremoth’s energy dispersing along the ley-lines. To extend the river analogy from the other thread: if you notice the stream next to your house suddenly flood, and follow it back to a broken dam, that doesn’t mean you’re able to see the broken dam from your house.

By this analogy, Primordus should have moved to Dragon’s Stand, not the Ring of Fire. Furthermore, his original placement shouldn’t have placed him near a flooding ley line from what little we know of ley lines, and even if it did, it would have – again – led to Dragon’s Stand (most likely through Rata Sum and The Grove), not to Ring of Fire in a path closer to Malchor’s Leap than the Tarnished Coast.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Being able to find a small signature, even several miles away, doesn’t mean you can find a massive signature on the other side of the continent, not without assuming several things about how that sense works that we’re just not in a position to know. I’m not saying it’s impossible, in fact I believe it’s probable, but it’s not a solid enough case for me to be comfortable using it to rule out avenues of other theories.

Regardless of “how”, he still sensed that magic was pooling up at the Ring of Fire specifically, and went straight there. No detours to the Heart of Maguuma where that proverbial dam broke.

This might be just my fantasy but id like to share.

When mursaat past through to the mists, Menzies has seen an oppurtunity and made a deal with mursaat on beating balthazar.
But mursaat being mursaat they backstab menzies while they are about to win against balthazar and take both of their powers.
Balthazar gets throwed in prison of mursaat like lazarus the dire who must have became friends over the years?(who knows right?)
Then something happens and in the end balthazar fights his way out?
Balthazar, the guy who has lost his brother, friend and powers to mursaat, then goes to the tyria acting as lazarus-his friend.

So where is the intervention of other gods? Where is lyssa with her mirror?
Other gods might not like a guy with anger issues but lyssa being a bit two sided helps balthazar to atleast live as a normal mortal or to trick everyone?
Might be that after mursaat took menzies’s and balthazar’s powers,other gods might have to fight against mursaat and not being able to help any other than themselves.

Balthazar lost his ultimate opposite, his brother.
Thats why he doesnt feel like war is important anymore.
Because a war needs two sides.

(Shoot me(i dont know how realistic this all is))