Guild Wars 2

Lantyssa.6723:

The way I look at the dragons is they are Aspects. While certain elements are frequently associated with professions, things make more sense to me by considering everything being spawned by more abstract forces.

Glint’s trial consisted of Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength. There is a fairly good correspondence between these and the dragons if viewed as the destructive aspects of these. Similarly the human gods represent these concepts.

That was based on GW1, however. Concepts have evolved and been refined since then. Maybe Elements should really be Knowledge. How I slot things for the moment:

Darkness – Zhaitan – Grenth
Chaos – Kralkatorrik – Lyssa
Knowledge – Deep Sea Dragon – Kormir
Nature – The Nightmare – Melandru
Strength – Primordius – Balthazar
Light – Jormag – Dwayna

For now I consider The Nightmare to be the sixth dragon, and one that has not fully awakened yet. Sylvari fight a plant dragon and it’s thorn hound minions in their dreams, not one of the others. They mistake its form as representing the dragons in general, because they were not aware of a specific there was one of a specific Aspect which was calling to them. It also explains why Sylvari can be turned to Nightmare, be unable to be turned back, yet they’re immune to corruption by the other dragons.

well first of all, you have to replace Kormir with Abaddon. the dragons already existed long before Kormir was even born. I’d say the same about Grenth and Dhuum, but their roles are basically the same, whereas (correct me if i am wrong) Dwayna became the goddess of water once Abaddon was cast down.

second, you’re twisting your own theory to make it match. “let’s just change elements (which are fire, water, air and earth) to knowledge. that way it’ll fit”. except i’m pretty sure primordus would be fire, or earth, and both jormag and the deep sea dragon involve water. or you could see jormag’s power as the other half of necromancer magic, since jormag corrupts from ice.

then you have kralkatorrik, the storm dragon, who could be associated with air as well as chaos (which we only associate him with because both chaos magic and branded crystals are pink). but kralkatorrik is described as black and golden.

that’s just the issue with mixing glint’s trials with the dragons. with the gods, you have a whole other problem, especially the part where the matches aren’t perfect (goddess of life = jormag?) and the part where the dragons, for all we know, are from Tyria, and the gods are not. in fact, we even have a specific date for when the gods arrived in Tyria, and for all we know the dragons could’ve been there before.

last but not least, what does that add? what do we get from associating each dragon with a god? aside from strengthening speculations of a nature elder dragon and limiting the dragons to six, nothing.

Lantyssa.6723:

The way I look at the dragons is they are Aspects. While certain elements are frequently associated with professions, things make more sense to me by considering everything being spawned by more abstract forces.

Glint’s trial consisted of Light, Nature, Chaos, Darkness, Elements, and Strength. There is a fairly good correspondence between these and the dragons if viewed as the destructive aspects of these. Similarly the human gods represent these concepts.

That was based on GW1, however. Concepts have evolved and been refined since then. Maybe Elements should really be Knowledge. How I slot things for the moment:

Darkness – Zhaitan – Grenth
Chaos – Kralkatorrik – Lyssa
Knowledge – Deep Sea Dragon – Kormir
Nature – The Nightmare – Melandru
Strength – Primordius – Balthazar
Light – Jormag – Dwayna

For now I consider The Nightmare to be the sixth dragon, and one that has not fully awakened yet. Sylvari fight a plant dragon and it’s thorn hound minions in their dreams, not one of the others. They mistake its form as representing the dragons in general, because they were not aware of a specific there was one of a specific Aspect which was calling to them. It also explains why Sylvari can be turned to Nightmare, be unable to be turned back, yet they’re immune to corruption by the other dragons.

Firstly, nothing relates the facets to the Elder Dragons – instead, those seen in Eye of the North are related to the Six Gods and the forgotten and not the Elder Dragons (that is, we were told that they’re not (directly, at least) related to the ED). They appear to be more akin to the standard avatar, but designed for the forgotten (though that’s somewhat speculative). The relation to the EN facets to the Dragon’s Lair Facets are unknown, though given the same model, similar naming system, and in fact same builds outside the Kormir one (dervish replacing elementalist) would indicate there’s a connection.

However, I’d like to point out that Jormag has no ties to “Light” but instead to Strength (everything about Jormag is about having power and strength). Similarly, the DSD holds nothing of knowledge – to our knowledge – and Kormir’s Facet is in fact Spirit, not Elements or Knowledge.

The DSD is tied to water, instead, which is now governed by Lyssa, though formerly Abaddon. However, there is similarly no ties between Kralkatorrik and chaos.

And as has been stated in this thread a few times, I believe, the plant dragon in the sylvari tutorial is the Dream’s representation of Zhaitan.

BrunoBRS.5178:

well first of all, you have to replace Kormir with Abaddon. the dragons already existed long before Kormir was even born. I’d say the same about Grenth and Dhuum, but their roles are basically the same, whereas (correct me if i am wrong) Dwayna became the goddess of water once Abaddon was cast down.

Lyssa took over water.

BrunoBRS.5178:

then you have kralkatorrik, the storm dragon, who could be associated with air as well as chaos (which we only associate him with because both chaos magic and branded crystals are pink). but kralkatorrik is described as black and golden.

Except that Kralkatorrik is not the “storm dragon” nor is he associated with air. He is the Crystal Dragon. And although, yes, there is lightning in the Dragonbrand and there are indeed Branded Sparks, if you go to Frostgorge Sound there’s quite a lot of lightning around the northern parts which are heavily corrupted/filled with Icebrood – similarly there’s lightning around Zhaitan’s lair in the story mode of Arah.

And Kralkatorrik’s not called black – he’s actually teal.

If we are going to talk about what the gods represent each I would say that instead of going through Glint’s Facets we go with the facets of the gods that we find in Kerrsh’s quests.

In these quests you kill facets of the gods to gain ciphers to better understand their part in the world, and the eternal alchemy. The Facets go as such:

Facet of Spirit – Kormir
Facet of Destruction – Balthazar
Facet of Existence – Dwayna
Facet of Death – Grenth
Facet of Illusions – Lyssa
Facet of Creation – Melandru

I want to point out here that I do not see any references to the Dragons in these descriptors, except for the weak connection to death and undeath. I mean all of the dragons are destroying creation and wiping out existence, and there are none that provide the opposite of destruction, while all of them are causing large swaths of destruction.

Also Konig, I don’t remember ever hearing the description of what color he was, only what color the dragon’s blood was. Also the golden aspect was his breath, with which he corrupted living beings.

It isn’t an uncommon fantasy trope that magic Conjures (draws one thing from somewhere else) to explain how magic casters have access to certain elements when none are present. However, since games seldom focus on the exact mechanics of magic and it’s working outside of flavoring it up with things like class ties (Bloodstones filtering magic use) we can never be entirely sure. Back on the WoW forum it was fiercely debated in the difference between mage and shaman mechanics that no one could come to term (Fire under water example blasted around), so this isn’t a new thing. However, given that most elementalist skills are shown off where there are plenty of said element in the area, I think I hold some ground here.

As for the sage thing, that doesn’t do anything with my argument, you just basically spoiled a lot for me because apparently you thought I was questioning your knowledge on dragons being associated with magic… Really wasn’t necessary, you could have just said you already know the connection between Dragons and Magic…

The Entire reason for this argument, as you know.. is to question dragons of elements not yet covered, indicated by what magic has been shown to manipulate.. which would leave nature, light and Choas left, because leaving it on the footnote of nature dragon, while also dividing ice from water.. leaves ALOT left over sitting around.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that Kralkatorrik is not the “storm dragon” nor is he associated with air. He is the Crystal Dragon. And although, yes, there is lightning in the Dragonbrand and there are indeed Branded Sparks, if you go to Frostgorge Sound there’s quite a lot of lightning around the northern parts which are heavily corrupted/filled with Icebrood – similarly there’s lightning around Zhaitan’s lair in the story mode of Arah.

And Kralkatorrik’s not called black – he’s actually teal.

i’m just going by the description i remember from destiny’s edge, and the whole “one with the storm, black storm and golden eyes” stuff stuck. plus, you can see part of him in GW1, on those black mountains.

i know he’s known as the crystal dragon, but that’s got more to do with what he created than with what he is, at least if you go by the description in the book. unless the book didn’t bother describing the crystals in him, because it was a given or something.

Even though I consider Kralkatorrik the earth dragon (Despite people thinking crystals aren’t earth, You are aware most crystals are minerals, therefore stone?), He does have some sort of storm concept being applied, despite claims that all dragon corruption is electrified. They do describe him as a hurricane, not to mention many crystals have effects on electrical current.

it’s also worth mentioning that few people have actually seen kralk and survived. as with the other dragons, he’s being labeled after his creations. only caithe and trahearne had seen zhaitan (and lived) until the end of the story, but everyone called him the undead dragon. not because he looks like a giant clump of rotten flesh, but because he rose a nation from the sea and brought back to life every single thing that died in it, thus undead.

the only one that doesn’t fit this pattern is the deep sea dragon, because technically he’s not even known to Tyria.

Narcemus.1348:

Also Konig, I don’t remember ever hearing the description of what color he was, only what color the dragon’s blood was. Also the golden aspect was his breath, with which he corrupted living beings.

Sorrow’s Embrace cinematic shows Kralkatorrik up close, mind you in concept art – he’s teal/light blue.

Furthermore, we see him in light blue during GW1, in the Charr Homelands.

Bard.7215:

As for the sage thing, that doesn’t do anything with my argument, you just basically spoiled a lot for me because apparently you thought I was questioning your knowledge on dragons being associated with magic… Really wasn’t necessary, you could have just said you already know the connection between Dragons and Magic…

The Entire reason for this argument, as you know.. is to question dragons of elements not yet covered, indicated by what magic has been shown to manipulate.. which would leave nature, light and Choas left, because leaving it on the footnote of nature dragon, while also dividing ice from water.. leaves ALOT left over sitting around.

Don’t know what “sage thing” you mean that I mentioned, but one thing to worry about when reading lore forums is “you will be spoiled in the plot (most likely)” though the only thing I spoiled is in relation to one dungeon’s explorable mode (no plot spoiling, just lore spoiling) – but still sorry.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’m just going by the description i remember from destiny’s edge, and the whole “one with the storm, black storm and golden eyes” stuff stuck. plus, you can see part of him in GW1, on those black mountains.

He’s light blue in GW1… there’s nothing black around him.

And the storms he creates are not him. :p

looks black to me

but that’s beyond the point.

and i didn’t have time to post before, but if this is the cutscene/concept art you’re talking about, then notice that it’s actually glint that is shown as blue, the only time we see kralk is that snip where destiny’s edge is looking at a giant dragon face, and that face is black with shades of green (which could still mean nothing, zhaitan looks nothing like his concept arts, much less in color, even if you look at the art shown at the arah dungeon)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sorrow’s Embrace cinematic shows Kralkatorrik up close, mind you in concept art – he’s teal/light blue.

Furthermore, we see him in light blue during GW1, in the Charr Homelands.

I remember his back as being a grey/black in the charr homelands, and as far as dungeons go I have not played any because of not being able to find good groups to finish them.

@bruno: It’s the lighting He’s blue(ish)

Yes, that’s the cutscene, but there’s actually 2 images of Kralkatorrik (other than him flying). 3:14 is Kralkatorrik – note that it’s teal, and lacks Glint’s “beard” which are in the other two images. If you don’t want to try to find the scene – there’s this

@Narcemus: I can see gray, but it’s very much also having blue at the lower parts (under the “shell”) – and where does it say that’s his back? :P

Well, based on general anatomy, the bony structure seems to represent more of a spine or possible neck than, say, his belly, or his leg (lord if that is just a leg we’re in for trouble) this being said there is nothing stating that this is his back. Though it would make sense that in general most creatures, when sleeping, sleep with their back to the air because this is their least vulnerable part. Also, perhaps it is just the coloration of my computer screen, but I honestly do not see anything of blue when I look at the image, or the object in game.

@konig – nope, that’s definitely glint. it’s all in the details: the dragon pictured is small. very small. the dragon pictured is obviously standing on land, not flying. kralkatorrik only landed when snaff crashed him on the ground. when that scene plays in the cutscene, caithe is saying “we stood beside glint, ready to face an elder dragon”, as the teal dragon stands up, not facing destiny’s edge, but facing something in the distance. glint is the only dragon that is clearly shown in all instances of that scene, and in all of them, glint is teal.

on the other hand you have kralkatorrik, which displays a head bigger than all of the teal dragon from that shot, and has a completely different color (dark green and black, rather than teal). if the teal dragon from that shot was kralkatorrik, he’d be smaller than the shatterer, and have the power to change form and color at will. however, glint’s look on the other two shots are a perfect match of the teal dragon. notice that the “glint beard” you mention is absent from the teal dragon is also absent from the shot that shows glint dead.

as for the GW1 shot, still looks black to me. the only bright areas are the sun’s reflections.

Lol I didn’t mean sage, I meant seer.

I get Sages and Seers mixed up.

I actually meant Seer.

Lantyssa.6723:

Darkness – Zhaitan – Grenth
Chaos – Kralkatorrik – Lyssa
Knowledge – Deep Sea Dragon – Kormir
Nature – The Nightmare – Melandru
Strength – Primordius – Balthazar
Light – Jormag – Dwayna

It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who attributes chaos magic to Kralkatorrik. I understand the argument from a scientific perspective that crystal = rock, like a quartz or diamond. However, what if what you see as a crystal is merely an illusion? A coating of chaos magic covering a formerly organic object that now makes it look as if it’s made of crystals. And what better way to distort what you see than through a crystal that refracts & bends light to its will?

When you fight my mesmer’s illusions, they very much look real but in fact shatter like glass (or crystals) when destroyed. Just as when you fight a branded charr, there is nothing inherently “charr” left to fight but an illusion of a charr. Granted they’re more tangible than my mesmer’s illusions, but they are still created with chaos magic. Not to mention mind control & domination are often attributed to chaos magic as well.

In terms of the lightning or fire associated with Kralk, my mesmer shoots lightning from her greatsword and can harness fire with her torch. But they are merely chaos magic spells giving the illusion of another element. Chaos storm looks like lightning, but is actually chaos magic causing confusion rather than air damage. My staff shoots little fireballs that are actually made of chaos magic causing random contitions.

I think it makese sense that the DSD is associated with Abaddon/Kormir given that abbadon was the keeper of secrets, and the DSD is fairly secretive so far. Kormir may be the goddess of truth, but in keeping the ultimate truth from the denizens of Tyria she is keeping just as many secrets as Abaddon did. Not to mention they are both associated with the spirits, and we may very well be fighting the spirits from the depths of the ocean rather than creatures actually made of water. Which begs the question of whether the DSD is more present than we think with all the Ascalonian ghosts wandering around.

My only real hangup in this list is the Jormag/Dwayna/Light & Existence connection other than they’re the only ones left to match up if the sixth dragon is, in fact, plant based and correlates with Melandru. Maybe Jormag is rejecting his light nature in that light=heat, and ice is pretty much as un-hot as you get. However, ice & snow are typically very bright and reflective when the sun shines so maybe he is embracing light more than we know.

What you said here, Vargos, was pretty much my reasoning.

I consider the dragons negative aspects, not necessarily destructive. They are destructive to existing structures, but only because they transform the environment to suit their aspect.

Initially I was thinking Jormag should be Strength, but that was when I was trying to use classical Greek elements. The Sons of Svanir revere Jormag, but they would have revered any elder dragon that showed up in their territory because they are all massively powerful forces. Dwayna is seen as opposing winter every year against Grenth, but as part of a natural cycle. As a more malevolent force, Jormag seems to be naturally in opposition to her.

Much like crystals, or undead, or other manifestations of their influence, Jormag happens to be ice. Too many have overlapping spheres of influence were they merely following classic elements though. Jormag’s ice is also highly mystical with patterns of light flowing throughout. So I don’t think Ice or Strength is really his domain. Corruption of Light, however, would fit. Instead of warmth and hope, he brings cold and despair, and ice when it shines could be considered solidified light.

@Narc: That image doesn’t show the blue, which is at the bottom of what’s viewable (it’s a grayish blue at that).

@Bruno: I’m sorry, but there’s this thing called distance – it makes things look smaller. Furthermore, it looks nothing like Glint – it’s too smooth, and Glint isn’t teal, she’s a darker blue (like in the first image), she has a beard (not present), and furthermore about the “flying vs standing” bit – the cinematic, like all other concept art cinematics, are exaggurated for the intention of being artistic and appearing better. In that very cinematic, you have an image of Destiny’s Edge fighting on the Jade Sea (the green waves) and in the Crystal Desert – they never did the former, and they were only in the desert to fight Glint/Kralkatorrik. Furthermore, in the Ascalonian Catacombs Ascalon City is shown as circular – it isn’t. And the 3 cinematics with Zhaitan (Durmand Priory intro, Battle of Fort Trinity, and Arah), Zhaitan looks nothing like in-game. Things won’t be 100% accurate all things considered, but there’s enough differences between Glint and the teal dragon to say safely that it is, in fact, not Glint.

And the color between the first and second shot of Kralkatorrik is not that different – take note that the entire scene is also darker. What does teal look in a darker environment but green, the color of the second shot? Furthermore, the image of when Glint’s dead is, once more, darker blue. Just as she is the first time she’s shown. And as to the head’s size’s difference (which in of itself goes against your argument of flying vs standing!), that’s Kralkatorrik far closer to Destiny’s Edge than the previous image (I wouldn’t call him black there either, considering that’s shadow – he’s actually light green in darkness there).

As to your comment on Caithe’s line – “we stood beside Glint, ready to face an Elder Dragon” – they were facing towards the teal dragon.

The scene where Glint’s dead is the only real strong point you have – but also note how she’s blue there, not teal nor any shade of green. Blue.

Unless you’re saying Glint can change colors from blue to a shade of green at will. (The lack of the beard can be decided to have been done to show some battle damage – the teal dragon is prior to the battle, whereas Glint dead is obviously after. If one wants to get technical, the dead Glint is missing the fang marks where Kralkatorrik bit into her or how her neck was broken yet it looks fine there).

To the GW1 shot, then you should go into GW1 (if you have it) and look for yourself. It’s not black except where shadows are (e.g., not where “the sun’s reflections” are – which would show black if Kralkatorrik truly was black, even if it were reflections, cuz the reflections would just be brightness).

Lantyssa.6723:

The Sons of Svanir revere Jormag, but they would have revered any elder dragon that showed up in their territory because they are all massively powerful forces.

I wouldn’t be so certain of that. Keep in mind that Jormag’s all about strength and promising such even prior to corrupting individuals. That’s how he gains minions – he entices individuals with promises of power to win them over.

The reason the Sons of Svanir revere Jormag isn’t because he’s strong, but because he can make them strong as well – or so they believe (and he promises).

In all honesty, we know nothing really about what Kralkatorrik is/will be like. For all we know the concept art shown in the cinematics could be similar to the issue of Zhaitan, where he is much different in game from any of the concept arts, except the one that was specifically showing his image.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

snip

first, believe what you want, but that isn’t kralkatorrik. you’re the first person i’ve seen that watched that cutscene and thought “yeah, that’s kralkatorrik, and he’s not even looking at us. he just landed, then lied down, then woke up and looked in the horizon”. it seems to me that you’re having some really hard time grasping the basic positioning there.

let me show you the storyboard: show glint, talk about how she betrayed kralkatorrik > show kralkatorrik flying towards glint > show destiny’s edge beside glint, ready to face a dragon (not facing yet, that’s the wait before the fight) > show how big kralkatorrik is by putting his face in comparison to destiny’s edge, which are about the same size as they were on the glint shot > show dead glint, still about the same size as shown in previous shots, still much smaller than kralkatorrik.

still on the dragon, it’s called color grading. the whole shot is blueish, because of blending. it’s common digital art procedure, blending the objects within the frame by applying color filters.

last but not least, the “beard” thing is a non-argument. characters change looks between concept art all the time. just look at old art of caithe, or look at the different concept arts representing zhaitan. you have the underwater awakening art, which made it to the game, where zhaitan is just a normal, oversized dragon with blue eyes. than you have the other famous concept art, which also made to the game, where he is atop some mountains in orr, and just has two large wings, and has a jaw and 4 legs. then you have the pre-dungeon concept art, which is more similar to what we got on the gameplay version, but still has the colors wrong.

second, that’s not the jade sea. if you go to orr, you’ll notice all the water there is green due to the rotten flesh. that fight is described in the book, and if i recall, they even bring up the water being putrid. and there’s nothing contradictory about them being on the crystal desert, as you’ve said yourself. they had to worry about dragon minions as much as they had to worry about kralkatorrik in the sky.

as for the guild wars 1 shot, that’s not how light works. scales are like metal, they reflect light when polished. that white (or greyish teal as you insist on calling) is just the sunlight reflected, the dark areas are the actual color. unless you mean to say that my character’s armor wasn’t blue when i took this shot (hint, it is, and i have pictures to prove it).

konig, i have great respect for your knowledge of lore (from back when i lurked on guru), but just admit that you made a small misjudgment. it’s not even a major thing, it’s just the color.

Narcemus.1348:

In all honesty, we know nothing really about what Kralkatorrik is/will be like. For all we know the concept art shown in the cinematics could be similar to the issue of Zhaitan, where he is much different in game from any of the concept arts, except the one that was specifically showing his image.

agreed, which not only adds to my point that this is a pointless argument, but also adds to the point of “you can’t look at small details in concept art, especially the more artsy stuff, and use it as evidence”.

which reminds me, konig has to be the first person i’ve ever seen describing kralkatorrik as teal. and if we’re going to use concept art as argument, well… this is definitely not teal, and this is unquestionably kralkatorrik

Now now gentlemen, lets not let this digress into an argument about the color and appearance of the elder dragons.

Certainly now one foresaw Zhaitan being a mass of drag corpses patched together, not even the concept art hinted at this.

Arena net could very well design Krakkletorik in a manner unimaginable, he could be a winged turtle for all we know.

Bard.7215:

Now now gentlemen, lets not let this digress into an argument about the color and appearance of the elder dragons.

Certainly now one foresaw Zhaitan being a mass of drag corpses patched together, not even the concept art hinted at this.

Arena net could very well design Krakkletorik in a manner unimaginable, he could be a winged turtle for all we know.

i’m telling you, he’ll be just a cloud, and we’ll use a giant fan to kill him.

a LASER fan that we’ll have to charge mid battle, will blow at him once and almost kill him, and then we hop on our vaccuum cleaner cannons and finish him off.

If I could make a guess on what the elder dragons look like, I’d assume Jormag would be wurm like in appearance, not necessarily a Chinese dragon, but more like a serpenty dragon with legs and huge wings. This is because Jormag totems are particularly serpenty in appearance.

Krakkltorik I won’t even try to imagine…

I think Primordos will have the basic dragon look, mostly because we’ve already scene his head.

i think kralkatorrik would be more serpent-y, given what we’ve seen from him in GW1. like, not necessarily wurm like, but very, very long. then again, that would look stupid, and i wouldn’t mind if the dragons were more standard :P

in my perfect world, kralkatorrik would look exactly like this mysterious concept art that’s supposedly official.

it certainly matches the description (even the fuzzy line between flesh and cloud, and the golden lightning bolts).

jormag, i wouldn’t count on the sons of svanir actually knowing how he looks like. konig’s idea of him being aquatic (or at least amphibious) would be quite interesting, especially considering how he sunk the far shiverpeaks.

primordus could actually turn quite unique, because of where he lives. instead of flying, his appearance could reflect that of a crawler and a climber. clinging himself to ceilings and walls while spitting lava, being a fast runner and digger to compensate the confined environemnts he lives in, and his body could reflect that.

his head can be standard, but the rest of his body is anyone’s guess (and when you think about it, if you replace zhaitan’s xenomorph tongue thingies with a proper jaw, his head is pretty standard for a dragon).

BrunoBRS.5178:

believe what you want

This is pretty much what I have to say to you. Once again, and I’ll make this post short so you can see it:

Concept art cinematics are done with exaggeration in order to make them look better. As such, it won’t always make perfect sense.

Mind you, this argument can go both ways, however, the differences between the teal/light green dragon and the two blue dragons (the latter being Glint for certainty) is, imho, far too great a difference.

BrunoBRS.5178:

characters change looks between concept art all the time. just look at old art of caithe, or look at the different concept arts representing zhaitan.

This is a null argument. Yes, characters do indeed change between various concept art – however, Glint’s look was finalized over 6 years ago. Zhaitan’s and Caithe’s looks were finalized during development of GW2 – they were re-imagined during development, which is why they were changed. Glint, was not.

BrunoBRS.5178:

second, that’s not the jade sea.

Yes, actually, it is – the name comes from the artist himself . If the person who made the image doesn’t know what it is, then he must be a bigger fool than the dumbest idiot. I don’t think he is.

BrunoBRS.5178:

as for the guild wars 1 shot […]unless you mean to say that my character’s armor wasn’t blue when i took this shot (hint, it is, and i have pictures to prove it).

GW1 and GW2’s lighting systems are vastly different. Perhaps the image was of poor quality, but I distinctly remember that it is NOT black. Perhaps I am using the wrong word to describe the color – I am not one to caring about color shades, after all – but it is most definitely a silver-ish (that is to say, somewhere along the mixture of blue and grey spectrum of color – more on the grey side, IMO) in color. Lighter than Glint, and certainly not black.

There were likely some parts that were black, but certainly – by far – not the whole. And I cannot, at all, agree that color of Kralkatorrik’s exposed body is “black.”

BrunoBRS.5178:

which reminds me, konig has to be the first person i’ve ever seen describing kralkatorrik as teal. and if we’re going to use concept art as argument, well… this is definitely not teal, and this is unquestionably kralkatorrik

To use your own argument against you: characters change during development. That is, perhaps, the oldest concept art of Kralkatorrik. It’s vastly different than what’s seen in-game in GW1, in size, shape, and color.

BrunoBRS.5178:

in my perfect world, kralkatorrik would look exactly like this mysterious concept art that’s supposedly official.

I can agree with wanting Kralk to look like that.

However, it’s not GW2 art. It was art Kekai Kotaki made for himself in his free time. Same with the other epic dragon artwork of his. And other things I’d wish to be GW2 concept art…

As for Jormag and Primordus’ looks – I’m hoping Jormag’s a bit like Drakkar who also seems aquatic/amphibious, while Primordus I expect to be wingless and more serpentine (a thin dragon, since he’s underground).

i stand corrected on the jade sea argument (seeing it still makes for a clearer image… does that mean the sea hasn’t turned back to water yet?), but as for everything else, let’s just agree that concept art (even that used in cutscenes) changes too much from what we get (and uses a lot of artsy tricks like color grading) to be used as a valid argument on either side, and stop arguing about the freaking color of the dragon.

as for dragon looks, shame that it’s not technically official art, but nothing says ANet can’t use it as inspiration. i mean, it even matches the description of kralk’s powers (the whole turning into cloud thing and the gold lightning breath).

isn’t there some in-GW2 lore that implies that drakkar and jormag are the same thing, contradicting some dev statements? but either way, yeah i wouldn’t mind something like that, huge manta ray dragon, although we already got zhaitan as “that dragon with more wings than it should ever need”, and i can’t say i’m that much of a fan of zhaitan’s visual outcome :P

primordus i’m almost betting will be wingless, because of the stuff i said.

Kralkatorrik never turned into clouds… clouds and lightning formed around him. He turned into a sandstorm (or rather, a billion grains of sand) though.

On Drakkar/Jormag – there’s 3 NPCs that I’ve seen saying Jormag awoke from within/beneath Drakkar Lake, however I’m going to trust the interviews, direct intervention on Jeff Grubb’s part, and comment in the Making of Guild Wars 2 stating that Drakkar and Jormag are two separate entities. Especially since we have other NPCs being wrong (either intentionally or not) – such as calling Almorra Soulkeeper a former Tribune (she was a Legionnaire)..

Trust the NPC’s are wrong, I’ve said this before but duing the norn order of whispers chains.. Tibult Leftpaw refers to domisticated pack bulls as Dolyak…

In addition I was given an invisibility spell to sneak passed Dredge.. which are completely blind and rely on their other senses…

Yeah I’m pretty sure NPC claims are mistakes, Voice acting gets tricky and concepts can change after voice acting has been implemented.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kralkatorrik never turned into clouds… clouds and lightning formed around him. He turned into a sandstorm (or rather, a billion grains of sand) though.

you get what i mean >.> a cloud of sand is still a cloud. he’s in the middle of a thunderstorm that he created, and then he becomes a sandstorm. both things are basically oversized clouds. BUT I DIGRESS.

some food for thought regarding Jormag’s appearance: in the great lodge, his tooth is actually called “Serpent’s Tooth”. this could imply, as was raised in this thread as a possibility, that Jormag is more serpent-like.

also, on frostgorge sound, there are some Jormag-worshipping grawls, and they’d make paintings that are supposed to represent Jormag. grawls being grawls, it was stupid, but they were drawing long, squiggly and straight lines. then again, i’m not convinced those grawls (or the sons of svanir that make dragon paintings everywhere) have ever seen Jormag. however, the tooth of jormag was brought by someone alive, someone who saw him, took his tooth off, and walked away with it. someone who described Jormag as a serpent.

so there, speculate away.

That someone would be Asgeir Dragonrender, founder of Hoelbrak and grandfather of Knut Whitebear. He cut the tooth from Jormag’s mouth with the help of the Spirits of the Wild. In GW1 there was a dragon statue in Ice Cliff Chasms which closely resembles those seen at many Son of Svanir camps. So that, plus the “Fang of the Serpent” in Hoelbrak, along side the evidence of the Dragon Clan grawl in Frostgorge Sound would give strong credibility to your theory Bruno. Good find.

^ i knew he was related to knut, i just couldn’t recall his name, or his relation :P

and thanks, it was completely accidental. i was just doing 100% completion and i found those squiggly lines saying “painting of jormag” or something along those lines. then i went to hoelbrak to fix a glitch in my map (could’ve been any of the other cities, but for some reason i went with hoelbrak), turned out i didn’t have it completed as i thought i had, so i went around exploring. on what was like the 5th time i passed through jormag’s tooth, i noticed you could target it, and the invincibility icon. that drew my attention to what the tooth is actually called in game.

i wish my tale of how i might have found evidence of jormag’s looks was more endearing lol.

[quote=482143;BrunoBRS.5178:some food for thought regarding Jormag’s appearance: in the great lodge, his tooth is actually called “Serpent’s Tooth”. this could imply, as was raised in this thread as a possibility, that Jormag is more serpent-like.

also, on frostgorge sound, there are some Jormag-worshipping grawls, and they’d make paintings that are supposed to represent Jormag. grawls being grawls, it was stupid, but they were drawing long, squiggly and straight lines. then again, i’m not convinced those grawls (or the sons of svanir that make dragon paintings everywhere) have ever seen Jormag. however, the tooth of jormag was brought by someone alive, someone who saw him, took his tooth off, and walked away with it. someone who described Jormag as a serpent.

so there, speculate away.[/quote]Those “grawl” paintings are used by Sons of Svanir as well (as well as being in other places with graffiti – Anet has only 3 sets of “cave paintings” – all used by grawl, but also used in sometimes completely irrelevant locations as well).

I wouldn’t doubt Jormag turns to be more serpentine, but those “paintings” seem more like a reference/easter egg to the possible origin of Jormag’s name: Jörmungandr

If you want to get technical though, dragons are often called serpents – winged and legged serpents, particularly. I think this originates from Norse mythos, though I’m not certain, and was even continued into Christianity (the story of Adam and Eve – where Satan appears as a snake, he’s first something else – sometimes as a winged serpent, sometimes as a legged serpent; this is possibly due to Christianity’s affect on other mythologies which in turn influenced their own (calling other mythos’ “good guys” as demons of various kinds etc. – don’t wanna get into a religious debate on this though). So the representation and calling Jormag a “serpent” may just be references/easter eggs/inspirations of Norse mythos.

Not saying Jormag can’t be serpentine, just that it’s not entirely unlikely he isn’t.

^ you’d think that his name referencing a serpent would add more substance to the argument.

and the kinds of dragons that are described as serpents are exactly those that are long, serpent-like. the other half of the time, they’re compared to lizards, since the standard dragon is essentially a winged lizard. a “serpent dragon” is a snake, with two, maybe 4 arms that are very small in comparison to the rest of the body, really long, and have a pair of wings on the back. a lizard dragon is what we’re used to seeing, something more akin to a komodo dragon with wings.

and the paintings i’m talking about aren’t the same that the sons of svanir paint, and they aren’t those mursaat-like paintings either (why the hell are grawls painting mursaats in the shiverpeaks anyway?). they are very unique-looking as they are not as much “paintings” as they are objects you set on fire with a torch (that’s the heart’s objective). they are also unique to that location, as far as i’ve seen. if i wasn’t so poor at the moment for buying some cultural armor, i’d go back there and take some screenshots.

but like i said, i don’t think the grawl paintings, or the sons of svanir paintings, should be used as evidence, as i doubt any of either would have personally seen jormag without turning into icebrood and losing all rational thought.

It’s only speculative that Jormag is a reference to Jörmungandr (a strong one though), especially given Jormungand in GW1 (Anet rarely has multiple references on something so exact – though not impossible). But the concept behind the two is more or less the same anyways – Elder Dragon, World Serpent; Jörmungandr has poisonous saliva, Elder Dragons corrupt with their breath (supposedly); etc.

Those aren’t mursaat paintings, btw. They look nothing like mursaat either. It’s a painting version of their “demon totems” (a skull-headed scarecrow, more or less). Now I’m no longer sure what you’re referring to, since the Son of Svanir painting is definitely near the Dragon Clan grawl…

for reference on form, look up Peryite from TES, his dragon form sums up the body type Jormag could have. Serpentine body, but with standard dragon wings and legs.

Lets hope that there is at least one elder dragon with Wyvern type body, as in the more anatomically rational dragons who’s front arms are the wings, like bats. (like in Skyrim)

^ i was thinking more chinese-dragon like. a pair of legs right before the tail, a really long body with the other pair of legs right before the neck, and a pair of wings on the back, near that area. or wing arms, sure. zhaitan had those, why not :P

basically, an oversized, icy saltspray dragon.

@Konig – i’ll admit, i never actually played prophecies, so everything i know about it was from reading through lore. as a result, i only have a vague idea of what a mursaat looks like, and my brain decided to associate them with the archangels from diablo, since it matches the usual description of it :P i read someone comparing those paintings with mursaats, and the general consensus was that yes, that does look like a mursaat. BUT THAT’S STEERING OFF-TOPIC, so i digress.

i’ll jump in game, take a screenshot, and post it here. it’s essentially like this thick, neon-blue fat spread around in squiggly patterns.

A chinese dragon style would relate Jormag to Kuunavang which I doubt will happen.

Mursaat lookittentle like Diablo angels. There was a comment, I once saw, with them being said to look like mursaat – this was due to the supposed connection between Caudecus and the White Mantle, a cult who worshiped the mursaat. Those things actually look nothing like mursaat and… I don’t think there was a consensus of them looking like mursaat, actually.

Edit: Okay, text oddity: “lookittentle” should be “look” and “little” – apparently Anet decided to sensor a misspelling of a word irregardless of spaces between letters?

^ i was thinking of kuunavang when making that description lol. i don’t see the problem with looking similar. i mean, look at norns. and despite that, at least last i checked, people weren’t considering norns just a tribe of really tall humans, and if they were, well they’re wrong :P point is, they’re both dragons, so having the same basic body structure (although vastly different appearances, since i imagine jormag would resemble the icebrood it creates) would mean little. the serpentine body is also more advantageous to an amphibian dragon, since they’d be lighter and sleeker, allowing for faster swimming.

and i think there’s a thread on forum tech bugs about those problematic filters. just post whichever cases you spot and they should hopefully fix it.

Thing is, Elder Dragons are supposed to not look like traditional dragons – so sayeth ArenaNet in their Art of Guild Wars 2 book. Furthermore, it’s been repeatedly stated that Kuunavang (and other dragons) are different from the Elder Dragons. Furthermore, it would imply a relationship – and yes, people have speculated on a relationship between norn and humans (though not as a direct tribe of tall humans), and btw from Edge of Destiny: “It stripped him of his human form and made him his champion” – Eir, on Svanir, EoD page 221 – this implies that their human appearance is little different from Bear Form, Raven Form, etc. (also implying it’s not their natural form, but rather a preferred/comfortable form – also take note that there are NPCs in GW2 which are permanently in Bear Form, including the “Talking Bear” in the Rata Sum prison, indicating that unlike mechanics, Bear Form can indeed be permanent as well as the others).

While possible, I don’t see it happening, and Drakkar is more of what I’d expect an amphibious dragon to look like (though not exactly).

^ your norn speculation only makes me love the kodan even more.

and i did get the pictures i wanted, but imageshack is acting up and i can’t for the life of me attach more than one screenshot at a time on this forum. do you know how?

meanwhile, here’s one. there are two more patterns they draw (one of which is similar to the sons of svanir’s patterns, but look more like a rose than a spiraling dragon, the other is just a straight line)

Great point about norn human form being comforable

Kind of disappoints me though, I don’t like the idea that we haven’t seen the norn true form…

@Bruno: That hardly looks like a depiction of a dragon. Keep in mind that the grawl, being primitive, will likely have nonsensicle paintings as well.

@Bard: Who says they even have a true form? :o

BIOLOGY OVERLOAD!!!

I don’t think I would have the stomach playing norn if it turned out they were some ethereal energy being that maintains various biological forms at whim or any other Formless shape shifter trope. I’m too comfortable with the idea that norn are mammalian humanoids related to Kodan or Juton to were granted shape-shifting powers by the spirits :P

Actually, the idea I was trying to bring up is that their “true form” is merely “whatever they want it to be” – that they’re “true form” has become lost to time.

Though I don’t see a relation to jotun that others do – too physically different. Even the bear form is greatly different from kodan, and their own personal theory is a bit… racist, IMO (but hey, they’re kodan – they look down on everyone).

Well Jotun are far more humaniod than let’s say, Ogres and Etten. They essentially look like large hairless neanderthal like humans with sharp teeth. I wouldn’t say they look THAT different from norn, there are things far less humanoid in appearance (kodan).

The relationship between norn and Jotun I believe is stated somewhere in something reguarding the history of Jotun.

As you know, the Jotun were once a very powerful race that fell into a very bad dark age (that’s still happening) after the first Dragon Awakening. The Norn were living with them and the way this is stated is as if the norn were a living as citizens amongst the Juton civilization. whether they were mutally living together as a society or just two closely related races or ONE race is still unknown. In some ways I feel the Juton and Norn were once the same race, but after the dragon attack, those that discovered the spirits were saved and were able to lift themselves out of their decline while others degraded to the point of primitive cavemen. since this Timeframe is unknown, the norn and juton could have grown apart greatly in physical appearance.

There is a relation implied by Thruln the Lost, but over half of his information is false so his comments on the “Age of Giants” and how norn and jotun ruled Tyria with other giant races may not be accurate. Furthermore, Thruln the Lost – who, I reiterate, is wrong on multiple levels – is the sole source for any relation of any degree outside modern enemies in the game. The closest other thing we have is the norn biography question which states that jotun are the norn’s “ancient foes” – but how old is ancient in this regard? Either way, that’d imply the opposite of Thruln’s dialogue (and makes your hypothesis of the same race to be less likely).

The only race that is implied by an accurate source (Ree Soesbee) to be related to jotun would be the ogres, which are definitely not akin to the norn.

(Minor correction: previous dragon awakening – not first – which was 10,000 BE, estimated)

Given that lore surrounding humans has been retconned before, the notion the Thruln is entirely wrong in what he says regarding the “Gods” is pushing it. Perhaps the Jotun are mixing gods up, perhaps humans are a bit hazy with their origin. I’m not one to stand vigilant in the face of contradictory lore with the idea that arena net is throwing pointless lies around to try to make it seem like everyone else is wrong. Generally when in MMO wants to convey a religious beleif is wrong, you’re without a reasonable doubt given an indication that it’s wrong. I’ve scene this happen in other stories and generally the conservative approach to the lore results in them being stuck in a Retconn. It isn’t present with the Jotun, who have had “Ancient Master Race” as a fundamental part of their character. The notion that they once had such a power should be a lore incentive enough to listen to what they have to say, perhaps the sheer insanity of how it sounds is the flavor “This caveman couldn’t possibly know anything about my gods, hahahah”, but in truth holds a shred of handed down knowledge that the human couldn’t possible fathom.

Also, I knew you’d target the “First dragon awakening” in the literal sense. First dragon Awakening would refer to the First known dragon awakening or Previous Dragon awakening. not everything I say is in an abnormally literal sense nor should it be taken, reminds me of my early days when my A.S would cause me to take and express things to literally, glad I broke out of that cycle.

Except that he is outright contradicted not only by old lore, but new lore as well – humans were brought to the world (and perhaps the continent) by the Six Gods. This is both old and new lore – predating and postdating Thruln the Lost. However, Thruln claims that the Six Gods paid no heed to the humans until they made nations, and that the jotun were the ones to nuture the humans before they did so. However, humans made nations within 5 years of landing on the northern continent – one of which being Orr (though an exact date isn’t given to Orr’s founding, we know it’s the oldest continental Tyrian human nation and that humanity arrived on continental Tyria in 205 BE).

ArenaNet, and in turn GW2, is not a conventional MMO in its lore giving. They do not just spew out mere facts, nor are things in a central location. Guild Wars 2 has shown ever since Ghosts of Ascalon that lore is being presented in a subjective viewpoint – meaning there will be deviations from individual to individual, based on both their own limited knowledge and on how they wish to view things. It’d be like taking the priest in Godslost Swamp’s dialogue for why the Six Gods actually left (claiming it’s because humans sinned) as granted for the same reason he claims he knows it: he’s a priest, so he knows these matters best.

Even in GW1, this was slightly shown, though more due to retcons-made-not than anything. Things change, because the perspective was subjective and false. This is why you must look at everything on the matter and find the consistencies. And Thruln’s the largest *in*consistency in the matter of how gods and humans interacted with originally.

Now, I’m not saying that everything Thruln says is false – just that the majority of it is. We also know that his claims for why jotun society fell is, directly at least, also false. He blames solely the disappearance of magic from their society alone, however in actuality (as we’re told from a ghost “Elder Thruln” who shows us these events in one of the norn storylines, as well as being told in the blog post and by a multitude of Durmand Priory scholars) it’s that after ruling the entire Shiverpeak Mountains their pride and desire to rule brought them to civil war which in turn led to their downfall. They could have lost magic around this time, but it wouldn’t have been direct from the gods (most likely – it’s still a possibility mind you, just an unlikely one given our other sources on history – ones that aren’t passed down by the highly fallible oral tradition).
BTW, when I correct minor things – it’s not so much because I expect things to always be literal, but rather because I know that some people do read or write words in a literal sense, and I want to make sure that there’s no false information spreading as much as possible (keeps things easier).