Guild Wars 2

Spoilers : If you have not played the Point of No Report, STOP READING!

Soooo is it just me or are we not getting the Asura murder of Sylvari retconned?

Seems more like Riannoc’s “first dead sylvari” is getting retconned since now Wynn seems to have died before Riannocs excursion.

I DO NOT like this lore retcon, especially since the Personal story (sylvari subpath) is basically just falling apart even more.

Can we get an official statement as to WHAT is going on with the whole Riannoc thing?

Somewhere a dev said the Riannoc thing was an oversight and it would be fixed later. I don’t know if it was fixed this patch. It wasn’t in the notes I believe.

I’m pretty sure Riannoc is still the first dead, just not so long before the other secondborn as in the last release.

I have been curious about this as well.

(I was also curious as to why ascended sinister stats is named after verata when verata last I recall was a minion mancer whose archetype was based off of healing minions via self infliction and well, minion associated stuff not direct affliction of opponents)

Mr Mango.3504:

Somewhere a dev said the Riannoc thing was an oversight and it would be fixed later. I don’t know if it was fixed this patch. It wasn’t in the notes I believe.

I’m pretty sure Riannoc is still the first dead, just not so long before the other secondborn as in the last release.

I can sort of dismiss the fact that SECONDBORN died before him as Caithe and the other firstborn could have kept it from the wider world and other sylvari to not incite panic.

But Wynn (a firstborn) dying, is very significant and can not possibly kept secret, keeping the details secret sure, but not the fact that shes dead.

So Riannoc could definitely not have been perceived by ANYONE, EVER to be the first dead sylvari and it upsets me that this is in the GAME as well as wiki even before release and will probably never be fixed.
Seriously a massive problem for my immersion.

They could easily fix this by saying that Riannoc is dead by the time of the “The Newly Awakened” episode. They said they will fix that episode. Could someone check if the dialog is changed already?

ProTech.8402:

They could easily fix this by saying that Riannoc is dead by the time of the “The Newly Awakened” episode. They said they will fix that episode. Could someone check if the dialog is changed already?

And if I remember correctly Riannoc is present at the first born discussion of the secondborn too.

So yeah, easy fix, but WILL THEY DO IT?

“When he died, all living sylvari felt it, Caithe describing it as “like a part of the Dream was torn away” while the Pale Tree describes it as “the sun dimmed, and the Dream wept.” "

If Riannoc’s death was that impactful then Wynne’s surely would have been just the same. The writers screwed up. There’s no way around that and it’s quite pathetic.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

“When he died, all living sylvari felt it, Caithe describing it as “like a part of the Dream was torn away” while the Pale Tree describes it as “the sun dimmed, and the Dream wept.” "

If Riannoc’s death was that impactful then Wynne’s surely would have been just the same. The writers screwed up. There’s no way around that and it’s quite pathetic.

Still able to dismiss it since it could just not have been mentioned. The FACT that she dies might not have been a secret, but HOW she died would have been, so that is perfectly acceptable since it could just not have been discussed before.

However it seems to be BEFORE Riannoc.

Bobby Stein confirmed that the thing with Rhiannoc in Seeds of Truth was a bug. Bug in the sense of lore inconsistency that slipped past QA.

So yeah, he’s dead already in the portion of Caithe’s past we explore.

What does seem to be a retcon however is Wynne being the first nightborn.

We’ve got Trahearne who was the first Sylvari ever and is a Nightborn and Malomedies who is the luminary of the night cycle and thus often disputed to be either the second night bloom or the first since there’s been some confusion about Trahearne and him being the first.

And now we’ve got Caithe claiming that Wynne was the first one and that the secret was revealed to her because nightblooms and secrets and her being the first.

Anet, untangle me this mess plz.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Bobby Stein confirmed that the thing with Rhiannoc in Seeds of Truth was a bug. Bug in the sense of lore inconsistency that slipped past QA.

So yeah, he’s dead already in the portion of Caithe’s past we explore.

What does seem to be a retcon however is Wynne being the first nightborn.

We’ve got Trahearne who was the first Sylvari ever and is a Nightborn and Malomedies who is the luminary of the night cycle and thus often disputed to be either the second night bloom or the first since there’s been some confusion about Trahearne and him being the first.

And now we’ve got Caithe claiming that Wynne was the first one and that the secret was revealed to her because nightblooms and secrets and her being the first.

Anet, untangle me this mess plz.

Wow. that is a mess :S
Maybe Anet hate Trahearne as much kitten many players seem to and forgot about him entirely.

Clearing it up is the least they can do, they need to FIX it in game!

Novuake.2691:

ProTech.8402:

They could easily fix this by saying that Riannoc is dead by the time of the “The Newly Awakened” episode. They said they will fix that episode. Could someone check if the dialog is changed already?

And if I remember correctly Riannoc is present at the first born discussion of the secondborn too.

So yeah, easy fix, but WILL THEY DO IT?

I checked the wiki and according to it Riannoc is not present there, he mentioned in a conversation which is problematic. I’m unable to check it now ingame.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Newly_Awakened

ElysianEternity.6215:

Bobby Stein confirmed that the thing with Rhiannoc in Seeds of Truth was a bug. Bug in the sense of lore inconsistency that slipped past QA.

So yeah, he’s dead already in the portion of Caithe’s past we explore.

What does seem to be a retcon however is Wynne being the first nightborn.

We’ve got Trahearne who was the first Sylvari ever and is a Nightborn and Malomedies who is the luminary of the night cycle and thus often disputed to be either the second night bloom or the first since there’s been some confusion about Trahearne and him being the first.

And now we’ve got Caithe claiming that Wynne was the first one and that the secret was revealed to her because nightblooms and secrets and her being the first.

Anet, untangle me this mess plz.

One explanation could be that Wynne was the Luminary of the Night until she died, then the title passed on to Malomedies who is the oldest living Sylvari born in the Night cycle. The wiki does not specify in which cycle Trahearne was born. I don’t know if there is any mention of ingame.

I don’t think Trahearne was ever stated to be a night bloom.

I can’t find info that states that the Luminaries are the first of their cycle. Could you provide a link? Not doubting, just curious.

I confirm, we don’t know what cycle Trahearne is.

I remember it from one of the sylvari PS-steps. Tho it doesn’t seem to be documented on the wiki so I don’t even have anything to link and I have no night-sylvari to play the PS to search. /holds head, the wiki for early PS is a wreck holy **** ;__;

I tried to google it but the only thing I found is another thread from 10 months ago https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Which-cycle-do-Trahearne-and-Scarlet-belong/first#post3702611 …which however doesn’t have any screenshot or such attached either.

Though I trust Konig’s memory more than mine and he remembered it too but… idk, not having direct access to the source bothers me too and there’s both the chance that we came across one of the exclusive-dialogue trees during story most people skip/miss or that we’re both either misremembering or came across something that was a lore-bug .

ElysianEternity.6215:

What does seem to be a retcon however is Wynne being the first nightborn.

We’ve got Trahearne who was the first Sylvari ever and is a Nightborn and Malomedies who is the luminary of the night cycle and thus often disputed to be either the second night bloom or the first since there’s been some confusion about Trahearne and him being the first.

And now we’ve got Caithe claiming that Wynne was the first one and that the secret was revealed to her because nightblooms and secrets and her being the first.

Anet, untangle me this mess plz.

Trahearne was never called Nightborn. His cycle is unknown. But yes, two luminaries are liars – Malomedies and another (whomever shares the cycle with Trahearne – most likely dawn or dusk luminary). Aka lore inconsistencies. Again. Just one of a few I noticed in this update.

ProTech.8402:

One explanation could be that Wynne was the Luminary of the Night until she died, then the title passed on to Malomedies who is the oldest living Sylvari born in the Night cycle. The wiki does not specify in which cycle Trahearne was born. I don’t know if there is any mention of ingame.

Malomedies states that he “awakened on the first night of the sylvari race.”
On the wiki at Beneath a Cold Moon but is stated in the first and last instance of Chapter 1 for sylvari Night players.

Each luminary claims something similar – e.g, first to see the sun rise on our race, first to see the sun set on our race, first to awake to the first day of our race (paraphrasing) – the luminary that shows depends on your bio choice. There’s a little bit of flexibility with the dusk/dawn meanings, but not the other two, and that includes Malomedies.

All four lines are on the wiki, though hardly ever on the same page. Again, first and last instance of the first chapter for sylvari PS, and the luminary that shows depends on your bio choice.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Malomedies states that he “awakened on the first night of the sylvari race.”
On the wiki at Beneath a Cold Moon but is stated in the first and last instance of Chapter 1 for sylvari Night players.

Each luminary claims something similar – e.g, first to see the sun rise on our race, first to see the sun set on our race, first to awake to the first day of our race (paraphrasing) – the luminary that shows depends on your bio choice. There’s a little bit of flexibility with the dusk/dawn meanings, but not the other two, and that includes Malomedies.

All four lines are on the wiki, though hardly ever on the same page. Again, first and last instance of the first chapter for sylvari PS, and the luminary that shows depends on your bio choice.

If we’re being really pernickety (and I guess we’ll have to be if we want to avoid this here inconsistency), Malomedies saying that he “awakened on the first night of the sylvari race” doesn’t specifically exclude the possibility that Wynne also awoke that night, before him.

What bothers me about the Wynne development is that Caithe basically said “no kitten the Pale Tree knows how she died, all she had to do was look into the Dream”. How does that square up with the premise of an entire PS arc being that no one knew, Pale Tree included, how Riannoc died?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

What bothers me about the Wynne development is that Caithe basically said “no kitten the Pale Tree knows how she died, all she had to do was look into the Dream”. How does that square up with the premise of an entire PS arc being that no one knew, Pale Tree included, how Riannoc died?

I suppose it might have been explained with the fact that Riannoc was not killed by a Sylvari, whilst Wynne were. And as such the Dream got information from Caithe rather than Wynne.

id also say the fact that it was a giant secret was part of the reason it is said that Riannoc was the first

wayne for all the sylvari knew had gone off somewhere and perhaps her dream beconed her to somewhere else(tho we know the truth now) this could have been an easy assumption to make for the other sylvari

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Malomedies states that he “awakened on the first night of the sylvari race.”
On the wiki at Beneath a Cold Moon but is stated in the first and last instance of Chapter 1 for sylvari Night players.

Each luminary claims something similar – e.g, first to see the sun rise on our race, first to see the sun set on our race, first to awake to the first day of our race (paraphrasing) – the luminary that shows depends on your bio choice. There’s a little bit of flexibility with the dusk/dawn meanings, but not the other two, and that includes Malomedies.

All four lines are on the wiki, though hardly ever on the same page. Again, first and last instance of the first chapter for sylvari PS, and the luminary that shows depends on your bio choice.

If we’re being really pernickety (and I guess we’ll have to be if we want to avoid this here inconsistency), Malomedies saying that he “awakened on the first night of the sylvari race” doesn’t specifically exclude the possibility that Wynne also awoke that night, before him.

It’s been established somewhere in-game (not sure where, I think it was A Light in the Darkness?) as well as in interviews that there were four Firstborn born a day, over three days – one per cycle per day.

So Malomedies, Wynne, and Caithe were born on different days. And it sounds like Caithe’s the youngest of the night Firstborn.

Similarly, it’s stated that the luminaries are the oldest of the cycles. Malomedies wasn’t the oldest of the cycle – though one could argue this away by saying that he stepped into the role because he became the oldest with Wynne’s death.

saventis.1485:

id also say the fact that it was a giant secret was part of the reason it is said that Riannoc was the first

wayne for all the sylvari knew had gone off somewhere and perhaps her dream beconed her to somewhere else(tho we know the truth now) this could have been an easy assumption to make for the other sylvari

But the secret doesn’t seem to be Wynne’s death – Faolain knew that Wynne was killed by Caithe’s hands. Caithe said that very act made Faolain think Caithe was like her and was why she continues trying to draw Caithe to the Nightmare.

Faolain would not be quiet about that. Especially not to her Courtiers, who in turn would not be quiet to non-Courtiers they taunt. Especially if it wasn’t common knowledge amongst sylvari. How better to demoralize your enemy than to say one of their figureheads is just as evil as the leader of the Nightmare Court?

I suspect Wynne’s murder by Caithe is simply an “unspoken truth” amongst sylvari. Not known by everyone, but those who do know, don’t think it’s important to dwell upon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I suspect Wynne’s murder by Caithe is simply an “unspoken truth” amongst sylvari. Not known by everyone, but those who do know, don’t think it’s important to dwell upon.

That, or they just didn’t think it through too deeply.

ProTech.8402:

Novuake.2691:

ProTech.8402:

They could easily fix this by saying that Riannoc is dead by the time of the “The Newly Awakened” episode. They said they will fix that episode. Could someone check if the dialog is changed already?

And if I remember correctly Riannoc is present at the first born discussion of the secondborn too.

So yeah, easy fix, but WILL THEY DO IT?

I checked the wiki and according to it Riannoc is not present there, he mentioned in a conversation which is problematic. I’m unable to check it now ingame.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Newly_Awakened

Correct. The Firstborn express concern for Riannoc – I think the intended implication was that Riannoc had died, but that the Firstborn weren’t aware. Which was still an inconsistency, but not as bad as no longer being the first to die.

As Bobby mentioned above, the plot hole of the Firstborn not being aware of Riannoc’s death at the time of “The Newly Awakened” was realised (and should be fixed now, although I haven’t replayed it to check what is said now).

Basically, Riannoc is still indeed the very first Sylvari to die, and it happened before Malomedies was captured and experimented on by the Asura. It seems that now Wynne is the second Firstborn to die, and the very first Sylvari to be murdered by her own kind (even if she did ask Caithe to do the deed).

I can’t find any information that states the luminaries are the first of their cycle. Where is this located?

Chiming in to report the Riannoc line has indeed been altered. Malomedies now says “We went so long without losing one of our own, but first Riannoc and now three of our newly awakened have been killed. This is unacceptable.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

saventis.1485:

id also say the fact that it was a giant secret was part of the reason it is said that Riannoc was the first

wayne for all the sylvari knew had gone off somewhere and perhaps her dream beconed her to somewhere else(tho we know the truth now) this could have been an easy assumption to make for the other sylvari

But the secret doesn’t seem to be Wynne’s death – Faolain knew that Wynne was killed by Caithe’s hands. Caithe said that very act made Faolain think Caithe was like her and was why she continues trying to draw Caithe to the Nightmare.

Faolain would not be quiet about that. Especially not to her Courtiers, who in turn would not be quiet to non-Courtiers they taunt. Especially if it wasn’t common knowledge amongst sylvari. How better to demoralize your enemy than to say one of their figureheads is just as evil as the leader of the Nightmare Court?

I suspect Wynne’s murder by Caithe is simply an “unspoken truth” amongst sylvari. Not known by everyone, but those who do know, don’t think it’s important to dwell upon.

true but having the blackmail is a great reason also. As well as the fact that they still do love each other however there view points different slightly.

for me even after a relationship i would never spread around another s secrets, and if foalain had any love for caith left she would not want to see her in pain (all she wants is for caith to join her in nightmare)

Dude.. GW2 is one giant retconn. From the Gods to the dragons to the mists.

BobbyStein.2315:

Mr Mango.3504:

Somewhere a dev said the Riannoc thing was an oversight and it would be fixed later. I don’t know if it was fixed this patch. It wasn’t in the notes I believe.

I’m pretty sure Riannoc is still the first dead, just not so long before the other secondborn as in the last release.

The fix should have gone live with yesterday’s build. Please let us know if the conversation from episode 7 wasn’t updated. Thanks.

Thanks! You really should put these in the Patch Notes. :P

Plagiarised.2865:

I can’t find any information that states the luminaries are the first of their cycle. Where is this located?

It is mentioned at the start of the Sylvari personal storylines (by each luminary, depending on who you choose to go with).
Unfortunately, these story steps have yet to be documented on the wiki.

(it’s on my to-do-list … has been for quite some time to be hounest)

BobbyStein.2315:

Mr Mango.3504:

Somewhere a dev said the Riannoc thing was an oversight and it would be fixed later. I don’t know if it was fixed this patch. It wasn’t in the notes I believe.

I’m pretty sure Riannoc is still the first dead, just not so long before the other secondborn as in the last release.

The fix should have gone live with yesterday’s build. Please let us know if the conversation from episode 7 wasn’t updated. Thanks.

Thank you Bobby. As I’m sure you know, small changes like this means A LOT to us in the lore community. Keep up the good work!

(P.S.: please remember to get such updates in the patch notes though, makes it a lot easier for us to update the wiki and spread the great news.)

BobbyStein.2315:

Mr Mango.3504:

Somewhere a dev said the Riannoc thing was an oversight and it would be fixed later. I don’t know if it was fixed this patch. It wasn’t in the notes I believe.

I’m pretty sure Riannoc is still the first dead, just not so long before the other secondborn as in the last release.

The fix should have gone live with yesterday’s build. Please let us know if the conversation from episode 7 wasn’t updated. Thanks.

Episode 7? Riannoc was episode 3.

> 3. Justice for Riannoc

I literally just left the instance in the Omphalos Chamber. I wish I had the foresight to pay attention to who said what and report back to this thread. Being in there is what prompted me to see if anyone else noticed it or if there was an explanation. I really wish there was a way to replay your personal story.

Either Caithe or Trahearne said that he was the first of the firstborn to die after speaking to them (after the cinematic conversation). If that conversation should have been fixed, it has not been. I believe this was prior to being able to go with the Priory or Whispers to investigate the swamp or Waine. After that mission was when they commented on Riannoc being the first to experience betrayal, but before the mission was when they said he was the first to experience death.

I thought maybe they were supposed to be keeping Wynne’s death a secret, but considering Faolain was aware of the death, that is not a possibility. I remember seeing Riannoc in Caithe’s visions and I don’t think he was on his way to battle Madrak, so he certainly wasn’t yet dead.

^ You are talking about the personal story. The rest is talking about the Living Story.

In that case, Riannoc’s death dialogue still needs to be updated in the Sylvari Personal Story.

Why?

Doesn’t it state that he was the first to die?
Just as the now updated Living Story Episode.

It does state that. Which is incorrect. Wynne was the first to die, not Riannoc.

Even as things stood before Wynne was after 3+however many Vorpp killed secondborn. She was at no point the first to die. What’s going on is it was established years ago that Riannoc was the first to die, whoever did the ep. 7 dialogue forgot, and so Mr. Stein went back for us and made sure that mistake was fixed.

When does Riannoc die in relation to Wynne?

Earlier, clearly.

We don’t actually have an exact year as to when Wynne dies (nor as to when Riannoc dies) so we can’t really answer that.

So, they fixed the bug in the Living Story, now they just have to fix the bug in the Personal Story. In the POI episode today, they recommended people make a Sylvari and play it. They’re all gonna see this mistake in episode 3 of the PS.

But there is no mistake in the Personal Story.

The mistake was made in the Living Story Season 2 Chapter 7, which have now been fixed.

lordkrall.7241:

Earlier, clearly.

We don’t actually have an exact year as to when Wynne dies (nor as to when Riannoc dies) so we can’t really answer that.

• Riannoc dies shortly before the birth of the secondborns: 1303-1304 AE.
• Wynne dies shortly after the birth of the secondborns: 1304-1305 AE.

Oh, so the “fix” being referred to is the Sylvari saying that Riannoc is already die before we see Caithe murder Wynne? I assumed the fix was the other way around. I didn’t actually investigate it, yet.

Koviko.3248:

It does state that. Which is incorrect. Wynne was the first to die, not Riannoc.

No Riannoc is. The answer is earlier in the thread.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Chiming in to report the Riannoc line has indeed been altered. Malomedies now says “We went so long without losing one of our own, but first Riannoc and now three of our newly awakened have been killed. This is unacceptable.”

The dialogue is not ambiguous, Riannoc is dead during the conversation in the Grove and it states he was first. Wynne is present during the conversation. There is no way to be unclear on who was the first sylvari to die.

I’m unsure of the impact this has on the story beats when it comes to the sylvari. Worst case scenario, the writers forgot that Riannoc was supposed to be a hugely important beat in the sylvari story and Wynne was inserted into their history with the original intent of her death being the first of the Firstborn to die. That would mean all the other plots being written, the character experiences and motivations are written around Wynne’s death and Riannoc was forgotten. I strongly suspect this is not the case and that the dialogue from Malomedies was just a mistake or an oversight and that in the writer’s minds when they were writing Wynne and the other Firstborn in the current content they did so keeping in mind that Riannoc was the first to die. If they had forgotten that Riannoc had died at this point, wouldn’t they have included him in the instance?

Regardless, it’s now as clear as day that Riannoc was the first sylvari to die and that the other sylvari knew about it. The change in the instance has fixed the mistake they made in episode 7.

Yeah, I misinterpreted where the thread was heading.

Titus.4285:

It is mentioned at the start of the Sylvari personal storylines (by each luminary, depending on who you choose to go with).
Unfortunately, these story steps have yet to be documented on the wiki.

(it’s on my to-do-list … has been for quite some time to be hounest)

I played through the first story on dawn and day cycle, and they have this to say:

Niamh: I awakened at the zenith of the first day of our race.
Aife: I awakened as the sun rose on the first dawn of our race.

They don’t state they were the first to awaken within their cycle, only that they were one of the first. Is the inconsistency due to an assumption that the firstborn woke up on different days. That, I don’t think is in the game. Is it is some interview?

I also want to reiterate that I’m not arguing; I am just very confused.

They really do need to clarify that. There is a Firstborn born at every time of the day “first” yet Trahearne is the first Firstborn. That’s a plot hole that’s existed far longer than this and really needs some fixing.

Unless they stated that the firstborn awoke on different days, 4 sylvari each day on each cycle for four days, I don’t see the plot hole. I am asking where this was stated, because I cannot find it (I assume it is in an interview and I would be grateful if someone can point me to it, if true).

1. Trahearne is stated to be the first sylvari.
2. Wynne is stated to be the first night bloom.

Trahearne is never stated to be a night bloom, so the first sylvari to awaken is still him. We now know he cannot be a night bloom, as must be one of the other three cycles.

Now, the luminaries all state they awoke on the first day of their race.

This is where the plot hole might exist. If it was stated that the firstborn awoke on four different days, then that is a plot hole. But if it was not stated, then I am under the assumption that all 12 awoke on one day, 3 per each of the four cycles.