Guild Wars 2

Plagiarised.2865:

Niamh: I awakened at the zenith of the first day of our race.
Aife: I awakened as the sun rose on the first dawn of our race.

They don’t state they were the first to awaken within their cycle, only that they were one of the first. Is the inconsistency due to an assumption that the firstborn woke up on different days. That, I don’t think is in the game. Is it is some interview?

The source I have for these statements are Konig.
I have previously asked him if he’s absolutely sure about it – and he seems to be.

Now, while Konig is – as all of us – occasionally wrong, he usually is right. I wanted to play through the PS and document EVERYTHING to confirm what’s true and false. But until we do that – I don’t have any reason to doubt Konig’s statements.

You’ve pointed out something very important there Plagiarised. Konig might have put too much into those statements by Niamh and Aife (plus similiar statements from the other two)? I’ll check in with him to see if that may be the case.

(P.S. You might want to take a look at the Sylvari “family” tree in my sandbox. At least I find it easier to think when I get a more visual presentation.)

Konig

There is also one by Kahedins and Malomedies which state they were born on the first sunset/night of the first day.

The thing is, we were told that the Firstborn were born 4 a day, 1 per cycle per day, over 3 days. They weren’t all born on the same day. This was both in-game somewhere, and an interview.

So Malomedies/Wynne is older than Caithe by a day or two.

Thank you to you both for trying to answer my question. I am still a little skeptical that the information is in the game, but I will take Konig’s word. If it was only stated in an interview (especially a pre-launch interview) then it might be information that was ‘infamously’ malleable.

Wasn’t Trahearne awakened a good deal earlier than the rest of the Firstborn though? I can’t remember where I read it, but I seem to recall that he was alone for a good half day or more before the second Firstborn awoke.

I’d like to apologize for not replying sooner.

I needed some emotional break from the toxicity some people on this sub have been spreading since the reveal and then the forum log-in acted up for me <_> yay.

Anyways, I still couldn’t find any source or backup for my claim …eventhoughIstillfeeltohavereaditsomewheresob, but yeah the burden of proof is on me and I can’t prove it unfortunately. So feel free to dismiss my claim about Trahearne.

Though about the firstborn and luminaries, the interview you were looking for probably was this one: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/17676-arenanet-dream-and-nightmare/page__st__210#entry842850

Same one which gave us the First/Secondborn age difference that was dismissed later on tho, so YMMV.

Yeah, things have been a bit heated to say the least.

But back to the query. Correct me but, I can’t find anything in that thread that said the firstborn awoke in the span of three days, 4 per day.

For the last few days I’ve been looking through interviews, the novels, and playing through the sylvari Personal Story (screenshot’ing everything). So far, I haven’t found anything.

If we can’t find evidence of this statement within the next few days, we’ll just have to correct the Firstborn article on wiki (and the attached “Lore discrepancy” tag).

For all we know, if it ever was mentioned in-game, they might have realised the inconsistency and removed it. Who knows!?

@Plagiarised

I just linked that interview for the sake of having sources. It confirms the 3 to each cycle part. The other part about the time-span might be ingame or maybe referred to in another interview. Totally possible with just how spread the lore is. .__.

Also Titus, major props. That kinda work’s hella appreciated.

I get the feeling that the interviews are subject to the lack of QA that was mentioned with Riannoc’s “lore bug.” It might also be why Anet is a bit more tight-lipped, so as to not give any wrong information (or let out that an xpac is near!).

Essentially, if it isn’t actually in the GW2 universe, then it’s not (yet) canon.

Angel McCoy.1832:

And I’ll end this post on a question. What do you imagine that first conversation between Caithe and the Pale Tree was like, after Caithe killed Wynne? I’d love to hear your imaginings.

The Pale Tree must’ve felt terribly betrayed and dissapointed towards Caithe, but eventually understood; it was Faolin’s poisoning what led her to that, and killing Wynne was necessary for the greater good of the sylvari.

Thank you for the information, Angel. That does clear up a lot of confusion. While I would still prefer for all the Firstborn to have “sensed it” when Riannoc died, the current system is fine. I’ll incorporate all of this into my knowledge of Sylvari.

I imagine that first meeting between Caithe and the Pale Tree after Wynne’s death would have felt very much like a mother coming to see her child after he’s been arrested for committing a crime. “What have you done? WHAT have you DONE?!” And Caithe just breaks down and begs forgiveness, and the truth slowly comes out. Based on what the Pale Tree knows about Faolain and Caithe’s relationship with her, she “forgives” Caithe for the act, but true forgiveness takes a while longer.

Also, based on your not-too-subtle hints, Trahearne is obviously a Dusk bloom.

Thank you for giving some official word on these confusions! I was worried we’d be left hanging until the 24th.

Angel McCoy.1832:

1. The Pale Tree is not omniscient. She does not get a complete report of events when a sylvari dies. She feels the death as a loss, but she doesn’t always know exactly what happened. Sometimes, she sees a part of what happened, especially if the emotions surrounding it are strong. But, not always. If the sylvari is Soundless, for example, she may not even feel the death. This is evidenced in the Personal Story by the fact that she had no idea what exactly had happened to Riannoc.

2. Riannoc was the first to die (evidenced in the Personal Story). The implication that all sylvari felt Riannoc’s death is not intended to be literal, but rather emotional. The sylvari can’t all tap into the Force and feel each others’ deaths. Once they learned of the death, however, all sylvari were deeply affected in a very personal way by it. When did the Pale Tree tell them about it? Not until after the Secondborn were kidnapped and also killed, confirming for the Pale Tree that the feeling of loss probably meant the sylvari in question had died. She is not omniscient.

Good to know that Riannoc’s death and the Sylvari’s reaction to it was not a mistake in the writing. When I first did the story, I assumed it was less mystical and more figurative as it’d be pretty weird to either:

a. Profoundly feel the death of every Sylvari, considering their population expands so quickly, or
b. Only feel the deaths of Firstborn, meaning that they really are “special” as opposed to just “famous”

Angel McCoy.1832:

3. Trahearne was the first Firstborn, but is not a night bloom. At heart, he is scholarly, studious, and intelligent. That should give you a clue to his cycle. He did not want to be the leader of the Pact.

I’ll let someone else determine the cycle. I always saw the cycle as inconsequential since the PC is free to approach every situation however they like to. But good to have it confirmed that Trahearne was indeed first and this was not a mistake in writing.

Angel McCoy.1832:

6. The Pale Tree can keep information she knows out of the heads of newly awakening sylvari. They do not have free access to everything she knows, especially if she doesn’t want it known.

I’m going to be careful about the wording here as you could be saying one of a few things:

1. The Pale Tree controls your Dream (something that the Nightmare Court propagandizes, but has never been proven true)
2. All Sylvari’s thoughts and experiences are in the Dream, but the Pale Tree’s thoughts and experiences are not
3. The Pale Tree can censor anything existing in the Dream so that newly awakened Sylvari do not have to see/experience it

From any of the above, it raises the question: Why does the PC face the Shadow of the Dragon? Speculation would be reliant on knowing which of the above is correct, though, which I’m not sure we know based on the current lore.

Angel McCoy.1832:

And I’ll end this post on a question. What do you imagine that first conversation between Caithe and the Pale Tree was like, after Caithe killed Wynne? I’d love to hear your imaginings.

I think since you put a spoiler on #4 and #5, you probably should have put one here! I don’t consider myself well-versed enough to even think about it, but I’m excited to see what happens! (I hope we get to see it… the looking-glass-into-the-past is my favorite part of any developed story!)

Thank you for your post, Angel! It’s good to see that my long-time assumption that Trahearne is the first dusk based on his traits is in fact on track.

Overall, I’m sure there was a great deal of distress on both parts; Caithe had to kill one of her sisters, the Pale Tree lost one of her Firstborn daughters, and they must both have realized they were losing Faolain in a different manner. More than that, Caithe had a new and terrifying secret to keep, and I’m sure she wanted answers.

I would hope that the Pale Tree would forgive Caithe for not seeing how terrible Faolain had become sooner and refusing to help her reach Wynne. It’s clear that Faolain was manipulating and emotionally abusing Caithe; when you’re the focus of a person like that, it is incredibly difficult to see what’s going on and break away. That Caithe did at last isn’t something to scorn her for not having achieved earlier; it’s something to be proud of her for managing at all.

I think it would be a very sorrowful conversation. Maybe a little angry, a little despairing. And maybe just a little relieved that the secret was safe, despite the tragedy it took.

I’d love to know more of their relationship, but unless Caithe or Faolain keeps a diary, there’s no way to tell the entire tale in-game. In my opinion, the Caithe & Faolain dynamic is the most interesting in the entire GW2 universe, but this is also the perspective of someone who didn’t really start playing until Festival of the Four Winds and never made it past level 3 in GW1.

@Koviko to the best of my knowledge, the game only states that the luminaries were born within the first corresponding time of day. That they were first of their cycle seems to hinge on a possibly misremembered interview that no one can seem to turn up, as is the idea that the Firstborn were spread out over more than a day- in other words, unless further evidence surfaces, those ideas are unsubstantiated.

Angel McCoy.1832:

“Cycle Luminary” is a title that is not bestowed based on awakening order.

Interesting you say that because, to quote each luminary in the first and last instance of Chapter 1 sylvari Personal Story (all three variants):

Aife: I awakened as the sun rose on the first dawn of our race.
Niamh: I awakened at the zenith of the first day of our race.
Kahedins: I awakened as the sun first set on our race.
Malomedies: I awakened on the first night of the sylvari race.

And I recall it being said somewhere that there was 1 Firstborn sylvari born per cycle per day (thus 4 sylvari every 24 hours over 72 hours).

So Malomedies and Kahedins (given your hint, Trahearn’s Dusk) are liars in 7 instances of the Personal Story. Now, Kahedins’ (and Aife’s) lines can be interpreted on the second day but the first sunrise/sunset (implying the first of the cycle was born after the sun’s movement but during the cycle still), but Malomedies’ line (like Niamh’s) is harder to argue out (Melomedies’ more than Niamh’s).

Please feel free to explain this to me, since this is where the problem lies – less the claim that Wynne/Trahearne are first, but that the luminaries proclaim themselves they awoke on the first day of the sylvari race.

Assuming Angel has not misspoken, either:

a) The luminaries are lying about being born on the first day, or
b) The Firstborn were born on the same day (or at least Trahearne, Wynne, Kahedins, and Malomedies were born on the same day).

I never got the impression that the Firstborn were born on different days or that Trahearne spent any time “alone” during the first day. But I’ve also not paid that much attention to the Sylvari until now, so I may have missed it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And I recall it being said somewhere that there was 1 Firstborn sylvari born per cycle per day (thus 4 sylvari every 24 hours over 72 hours).

Konig, I cannot find this information anywhere. I have been digging for days now, with no avail. I am beginning to be really skeptical of such a statement.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And I recall it being said somewhere that there was 1 Firstborn sylvari born per cycle per day (thus 4 sylvari every 24 hours over 72 hours).

For the last couple of days, both I and Plagiarised (and more?) have been looking through interviews, searching the books, playing the Sylvari storyline – in search of this statement.

But no one can find it anywhere. If it was ever mentioned in-game, for all we know; it may have already been removed (/retconned) by the devs.
I don’t think we can call this a lore inconsistency anymore.

That means that Kahedins (dusk) and Malomedies (night) were not the first of their cycles. Aife (dawn) and Niamh (noon) may still be.
Though the luminaries’ statements may be meant being “poetic”, they do suggest that all (or at least half) of the Firstborn were born on the same day.

@Angel: would be great to have some kind of confirmation of what’s true/false here. Thank you for stopping by to fill us in. We greatly appreciate it!

Unexpected Red post is unexpected.

Thanks Angel! Great to see that we can get an official response on the deeper lore that is a bit fuzzy.

Angel McCoy.1832:

Spoilers if you haven't finished playing Season 2: 4. & 5. ...

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4. At the time Wynne died, they had not yet decided how they were going to deal with the Secondborn nor had they set up a structure for this (as seen in the first Caithe flashback). They didn’t have Wardens yet. “Cycle Luminary” i

You say that, and yet they had Menders (Scarlet was welcomed by Mender Serimon). So clearly there was a structure set up since you guys decided to chuck Scarlet/Ceara into the Seeds of Truth instance. I think you guys have dug yourselves into a hole. The instance, and what you’re saying now, is clearly trying to state that the Sylvari had no structures for dealing with the Secondborn, and yet what we observe suggests otherwise. It wouldn’t really make sense for there to have not been a structure set in place the second Secondborn started arriving.

Take note:
“Sapling?” Serimon said. “I’m here to help you acclimate. To help you understand your place in this world and identify the purpose Pale Mother has given you.”

So clearly Secondborn were already being aided at the time they emerged from the dream, and yet what Kahedins says in ‘The Newly Awakened’ (“I try to find time to help each of the new sprouts interpret their Dreams, but it’s becoming difficult with so many awakening. I fear some will go astray and misinterpret their Wyld Hunts.”) seems to be more in line with what you, Angel, are trying to convey.

You guys are screwing up and it’s a little ridiculous. If forum users can keep track of your lore, then why can’t you?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Angel McCoy.1832:

Spoilers if you haven't finished playing Season 2: 4. & 5. ...

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4. At the time Wynne died, they had not yet decided how they were going to deal with the Secondborn nor had they set up a structure for this (as seen in the first Caithe flashback). They didn’t have Wardens yet. “Cycle Luminary” i

You say that, and yet they had Menders (Scarlet was welcomed by Mender Serimon). So clearly there was a structure set up since you guys decided to chuck Scarlet/Ceara into the Seeds of Truth instance. I think you guys have dug yourselves into a hole. The instance, and what you’re saying now, is clearly trying to state that the Sylvari had no structures for dealing with the Secondborn, and yet what we observe suggests otherwise. It wouldn’t really make sense for there to have not been a structure set in place the second Secondborn started arriving.

Take note:
“Sapling?” Serimon said. “I’m here to help you acclimate. To help you understand your place in this world and identify the purpose Pale Mother has given you.”

So clearly Secondborn were already being aided at the time they emerged from the dream, and yet what Kahedins says in ‘The Newly Awakened’ (“I try to find time to help each of the new sprouts interpret their Dreams, but it’s becoming difficult with so many awakening. I fear some will go astray and misinterpret their Wyld Hunts.”) seems to be more in line with what you, Angel, are trying to convey.

You guys are screwing up and it’s a little ridiculous. If forum users can keep track of your lore, then why can’t you?

You seem to be blowing this way out of proportion?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

You say that, and yet they had Menders (Scarlet was welcomed by Mender Serimon). So clearly there was a structure set up since you guys decided to chuck Scarlet/Ceara into the Seeds of Truth instance.

What’s the screw up? They didn’t have wardens or the luminaries but they already had menders. They are all exclusive, and there is not doubt some structure was in place. The structure she was referring to was schooling, teaching, and learning. Not helping newborn to get acquainted.

Because Kahdenis shouldn’t be struggling with trying to show “each” of the new Sylvari how to interpret their dreams if there are already Menders in place to do so. I could understand if he was acting as a Mender and aiding some Sylvari in interpreting their Dream, but he specifically says he is trying to help “each” Sylvari with that. If you have Mender Serimon, and presumably others since the concept of a Mender exists, then Kahedins shouldn’t be doing all of that.

Yeah it seems like a very small detail and one that can be easily explained away by the devs saying that I’m reading it wrong, but if you look at it with any semblance of logic then it just doesn’t make sense. So either they’re writing their world very poorly or they’re making genuine errors. Both reflect poorly.

I’m sorry but I think your misinterpreting Kahdenis’ words. Him saying that he is helping each of the newly awakened doesn’t mean he is solely responsible. It could mean that the menders was a very small group that put a strain on the him (which would lead to the larger group found in 1325 AE.

Plagiarised.2865:

I’m sorry but I think your misinterpreting Kahdenis’ words. Him saying that he is helping each of the newly awakened doesn’t mean he is solely responsible. It could mean that the menders was a very small group that put a strain on the him (which would lead to the larger group found in 1325 AE.

“I try to find time to help each of the new sprouts interpret their Dreams, but it’s becoming difficult with so many awakening. I fear some will go astray and misinterpret their Wyld Hunts.”

It doesn’t mean he is solely responsible but it does mean that he is talking to each and every Sylvari newborn. Why would you need to talk to every single newbown Sylvari if you had at least one mender (Mender Serimon) who was clearly doing the exact same thing. So either Kahedins is an idiot, is doing far more than he needs to be, has no faith in the menders to do exactly what they exist to do, or the writers made an error. Given the fact that Angel just tried to say that the Sylvari didn’t “know how they were going to deal with the newborn” it seems the writers have forgotten/did not care that they had previously established that there had to have been menders helping newborn Sylvari at that point. That takes organisation and it clearly suggests that the Firstborn had made some sort of decision as to what needed to be done with the newborn, aka having Menders to guide them through their birth and through interpreting their dream.

I’m not saying Kahdenis didn’t see every new sylvari, just that he didn’t do it alone. Now why he would do such I thing is obvious, there was, during the time, a little fear and anti-sentiment towards non-firstborn (this can also be seen in Cadeyrn’s story, where he was accompanied by Niamh) Examples of this sentiment can be seen in the Newly Awakened story:

Newborn: There they go again. Probably talking about us.
Newborn: Why aren’t we involved in their discussions?

Now Angel’s comment, I reiterate, it seems to me that it referred to the new (in recent months) influx of sylvari. Which would occur after Ceara’s awakening.

Cadeyrn, the first of the Secondborn, states he was only awake for a few months.

Thus your comment of “the new (in recent months) influx of sylvari” would include all – or at least most – Secondborn. Eitherway, FlamingFoxx has a point. The instance is talking about how there isn’t a structure yet for dealing with the Secondborn. But What Scarlet Saw clearly shows that when Scarlet woke there was. On top of that, these flashbacks are stated by Caithe to be shortly before the Nightmare Court’s forming, but as we see in the old blog post Dream and Nightmare stories, the Nightmare Court was established after things like Wardens were (unless the hunting party of noon sylvari led by Niamh was not a warden party) – in fact, the very reason for the Nightmare Court’s foundation, and how/when Faolain joined the Court, gets messed up with Episode 8 (Faolain fell to Nightmare long after its foundation, per Caithe in Twilight Arbor story; Caithe was the cause for Cadeyrn’s decision to go rogue, and it was relatively fast – there was no preaching and meetings to discuss things based off of the blog).

What FlamingFoxx said rings true to what I’ve been thinking for over a year now:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

You guys are screwing up and it’s a little ridiculous. If forum users can keep track of your lore, then why can’t you?

And yeah, many of these things are minor. Some of them are fixed when pointed out. But when you clump all of this together… it makes a ridgy storytelling.

But the main point… forum users shouldn’t be better than the authors on a continuous timeframe. The writers shouldn’t have to explain themselves and their story’s “inconsistencies and confusions” after every release like we’ve seen Angel (and sometimes Bobby) doing after each story release since Escape from Lion’s Arch. When you get to that point… you’re doing something wrong.

I guess we’ll agree to disagree about the Wardens. That is not to say there wasn’t inconsistencies. Scarlet’s age, Modremoth’s name, the formation of the toxic alliance are all good example. I just don’t think this particular complaint is warranted. Again that is not to say there aren’t other complaints, even in the latest episode.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Why would you need to talk to every single newbown Sylvari if you had at least one mender (Mender Serimon) who was clearly doing the exact same thing.

Menders don’t deal too much with dreams. They are here to be sure sylvari awaken in a proper manner, that they are not alone when the pod opens, that they understand they left the Dream where Ventari’s teachings were given to them.
When our character awakens and tell mender Serimon that he felt a call to kill the dragon, the Mender acknowledges this as a Wyld Hunt but by no mean interpret it further.
The interpretation is given by the Pale Tree when she says she believes that our character will fight Zaitan.

He did the same with Ceara as he is not specifically speaking about what she dreamt about but only that she understands that she is born in a world where she should use the knowledge given by her mother while she was dreaming.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Cadeyrn, the first of the Secondborn, states he was only awake for a few months.

Thus your comment of “the new (in recent months) influx of sylvari” would include all – or at least most – Secondborn. Eitherway, FlamingFoxx has a point. The instance is talking about how there isn’t a structure yet for dealing with the Secondborn. But What Scarlet Saw clearly shows that when Scarlet woke there was.

If you refer to the presence of Serimon, I don’t think this is a structure. And this is the only thing mentioned in the first paragraph of the short story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On top of that, these flashbacks are stated by Caithe to be shortly before the Nightmare Court’s forming, but as we see in the old blog post Dream and Nightmare stories, the Nightmare Court was established after things like Wardens were (unless the hunting party of noon sylvari led by Niamh was not a warden party) – in fact, the very reason for the Nightmare Court’s foundation, and how/when Faolain joined the Court, gets messed up with Episode 8 (Faolain fell to Nightmare long after its foundation, per Caithe in Twilight Arbor story; Caithe was the cause for Cadeyrn’s decision to go rogue, and it was relatively fast – there was no preaching and meetings to discuss things based off of the blog).

I couldn’t find a statement of Caithe saying this sadly. If it is true then you are right that there is a problem especially since when they chase the kraits it is said that they are with “two others of an even younger generation than Cadeyrn”.
Nevertheless during episode 7/8 I’m not sure one can say for sure that Cadeyrn and Faolain have already fallen into Nightmare.
They question Ventari’s teachings but they are not in the state where they want to influence the Dream for the future generations. Faolain only says she doesn’t think the Secondborn should be reminded the teachings the all day as would Wynne and Trahearne do. But all Firstborn are focused on protecting the new ones from death.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

My feeling is that a few of the self-appointed lore experts go too far, in effect writing fan fiction by interpreting what they see and telling the rest of us how we are supposed to understand the lore. It’s only a few people who do this, but I think it becomes a distraction to the actual story.

Thanks for the reminder Personally I can say that interpretation is always something I try to keep in mind. As a lore fanatic, it can be easy to get furious over minor details, and at the same time we can easily get the impression that we’re being 100% right – “because it says so in this dialogue box”.

People care about what they care about though, and so should it be. As long as we remember to present our arguments in a consise fact-based constructive matter – while separating opionions as opinions.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’d like to offer another point of view: a lot of people with strong opinions about lore won’t be participating in this or similar conversations. I hope the writing team spends their most of their time working on the next evolution of the story and very little time on molehills-turned-into-mountains.

There are a lot of fans who do great work documenting lore. As they do so, they uncover inconsistencies and contradictions, which should be expected in both a well-written and horribly-written story, as well as when the writer(s) aren’t keeping track of the details.

The question is: what are the rest of us to make of this? My feeling is that a few of the self-appointed lore experts go too far, in effect writing fan fiction by interpreting what they see and telling the rest of us how we are supposed to understand the lore. It’s only a few people who do this, but I think it becomes a distraction to the actual story.

For example, “all the sylvari felt it when rhiannoc died” — even when I first encountered this idea, I always thought it was hyperbole. To me, this is the same as people saying that “all Americans felt it when Kennedy died” — people found out at different times, but nevertheless feel they shared a specific experience, even though technically, they did not. But some lore experts would have us believe that this was originally intended to be literal, because that is how they (the expert) interpreted it upon first reading. To be sure, there wasn’t that much evidence one way or another to know what the writers meant with certainty, but that could be a result of both good or bad writing.

It’s also clear from the personal and living stories that NPCs in GW2 aren’t always honest. They tell outright lies, omit critical details, and bend the truth to suit their interests. Because this is an MMO, this tends to be obvious most of the time, but I think it’s great when it’s subtle, too — I’d like to see more of the characters behaving like real people, i.e. full of their own contradictions and other foibles.

A lot of things were left ambiguous in the original personal story, perhaps intentionally, perhaps because (as some believe) the game was rushed to release to make NCSOFT shareholders happy, perhaps because the writing team wasn’t paying that much attention to matters they considered minor. As a player, I don’t really care — as long as the story compels my attention, then I’m okay with some details being inconsistent.

For example, I’m not bothered by luminaries claiming to be the first to be born in their cycle — “first” is obviously a big deal among the sylvari. I’m not concerned that there are contradictions between dreams of some and statements by others — the dreams don’t seem to be literal and sylvari are just as prone to misunderstandings as charr or humans (although not as bad as the asura). But even if I’m mistaken, none of this affects the basics of the story. Wynne’s reveal is still powerful, Scarlet’s motivations are still mysterious in some ways, and the conflict between Mother Tree, firstborn, and Nightmare Court still leaves me wanting to learn more.

tl;dr I hope the writing team focuses on what they perceive as critical, and doesn’t get too distracted by whatever latest “outrage” is posted on the forums. I’m enjoying the living story and I’m looking forward to the next installment.

Preach! Somebody had to say it, cause lately I have seen too much people rely on these self-proclaimed loremasters for answers meanwhile these ‘loremasters’ don’t know everything or are correct about it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Interesting you say that because, to quote each luminary in the first and last instance of Chapter 1 sylvari Personal Story (all three variants):

Aife: I awakened as the sun rose on the first dawn of our race.
Niamh: I awakened at the zenith of the first day of our race.
Kahedins: I awakened as the sun first set on our race.
Malomedies: I awakened on the first night of the sylvari race.

[…]

So Malomedies and Kahedins (given your hint, Trahearn’s Dusk) are liars in 7 instances of the Personal Story. Now, Kahedins’ (and Aife’s) lines can be interpreted on the second day but the first sunrise/sunset (implying the first of the cycle was born after the sun’s movement but during the cycle still), but Malomedies’ line (like Niamh’s) is harder to argue out (Melomedies’ more than Niamh’s).

Why does this necessarily mean they were the first to wake? All it means is that they awoke on the first day.

I think people are getting a liiiiittle too focused on minutiae and literalism.

Neilos, Konig operates under a premise he remembers that sylvari Firstborn awoke one per cycle over three days.

However, it’s a premise that literally no one can find the source of, so yeah, no one is lying.

qarinus.3869:

Neilos, Konig operates under a premise he remembers that sylvari Firstborn awoke one per cycle over three days.

However, it’s a premise that literally no one can find the source of, so yeah, no one is lying.

You have twelve Sylvari. Of those twelve we know who 10 are. Of those 10 we have 1 Dawn, 3 Night, 3 Dusk, 1 Noon, and 2 unknown ( making 4 unknown in total). We know from an interview that the firstborn are split across each of the cycles, which means there are 3 of each in total.

This is probably of interest because it showcases what Konig is getting at:
http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=651
“Ree: It started really with the second-born, because until the second-born were created the first-born didn’t even realize, there were going to be more. As far as they knew, they were the only Sylvari ever, that would ever be. And the tree had not yet flowered again. And when she did she started to create slowly generation after generation and that’s when they started to create a society. They had to break it up somehow; Sylvari are born very quickly -especially now. And they divided into the cycles of the sun because each of the first-born would tend to the tree for a period of the day. One was at dawn, one was at noon, one was at dusk and one was during the night. And at that period the Sylvari who were born, who awakened during that time, would be taken under the tutelage of that first-born. And so they were called the cycle of night or the cycle of day according to when they were born.”

What she is talking about near the end is a reference to the Luminaries, and she is suggesting that each of the luminaries is the first born into that cycle.

Does anyone know when/in what part of the personal story Trahearne talks about when he awoke? I feel like that might be kind of helpful here.

All of the first 12 are called the Firstborn. There is nothing in there to suggest that Ree’s use of ‘first-born’ means “the first four” and not “four of the first 12.” Secondborn refers to the second wave of sylvari after the first 12.

Not “everyone after the first four.”

You’re reading something that literally isn’t there, and is directly contradicted elsewhere.

What she is speaking about, in my opinion obviously, is the firstborn tending to the tree, something luminaries were never explained to do. They teach and train the newly awakened, that is it. She is not talking about luminaries there.

The whole inconsistency is based on the premise that the luminaries were stated to be the first of their cycle, something that has been contradicted ever since the launch of the game, and I cannot find anywhere.

qarinus.3869:

All of the first 12 are called the Firstborn. There is nothing in there to suggest that Ree’s use of ‘first-born’ means “the first four” and not “four of the first 12.” Secondborn refers to the second wave of sylvari after the first 12.

Not “everyone after the first four.”

You’re reading something that literally isn’t there, and is directly contradicted elsewhere.

“They had to break it up somehow; Sylvari are born very quickly -especially now. And they divided into the cycles of the sun because each of the first-born would tend to the tree for a period of the day. One was at dawn, one was at noon, one was at dusk and one was during the night. And at that period the Sylvari who were born, who awakened during that time, would be taken under the tutelage of that first-born.”

I don’t recall saying that the firstborn was somehow only the first four…
That specific bit talks about how the Sylvari born in each cycle would tend to the tree during that time of day, which means there were three tending the tree at any given time of the day, or at least whose shared responsibility it was. The issue comes where Ree says the secondborn born in a specific time of day “would be taken under the tutelage of that first-born”, not ‘those’ firstborn, “that’ firstborn.

None of this is contradicted everywhere else. It’s only contradicted in newly released Living World content.

That was what my impression of where you were drawing your conclusion from was; clearly I was wrong. But your conclusion is still reading something that isn’t there.

It says that sylvari who were born were taken under the tutelage of the firstborn who was tending the tree when they awoke. Which could have been any of the three, not the first one.

The more likely interpretation is that the firstborn of each cycle took turns tending her during their cycle, and it has nothing to do with the luminaries at all. It’s very much a stretch to say the word “that” implies only the first of the cycle, and not “the one who was tending the tree right then and found the newborn.”

FlamingFoxx.1305:

“would be taken under the tutelage of that first-born”, not ‘those’ firstborn, “that’ firstborn.

Okay, I am going to be completely honest. You are taking one word, said in a live interview, at the top of a person’s head. This is why stuff from interviews are considered malleable. Not because their evil and don’t care about story and lore, but because this is a very small detail, that, and this is the most important part, NOT the main information from that interview question. There are contradictions worth talking about, but this is not one of them.

@Plagiarized/Bobby/Titus: I’ve been looking for the line, but it doesn’t seem to be up on the wiki. I’m fairly certain it was on a low level sylvari of mine relatively recently while in the Grove – which could mean a C1 or C2 storyline (White Stag, Shield of the Moon, and Malyck are the storylines I did as such – as Dusk and Night).

Or it was removed subliminally. Or from an obscure interview. I certainly do recall it.

But Bobby, why not look into your lore bible document and see what that says regarding the luminaries and birthdates? Because if it’s different (if something is said) then that may mean that whatever I saw was a slip up.

Ranael.6423:

If you refer to the presence of Serimon, I don’t think this is a structure. And this is the only thing mentioned in the first paragraph of the short story.

The fact that Serimon refers to himself as a mender and has a clear role shows to me that there’s a structure for how to deal with bringing sylvari into the world, which is part of what the meeting is about.

Ranael.6423:

I couldn’t find a statement of Caithe saying this sadly. If it is true then you are right that there is a problem especially since when they chase the kraits it is said that they are with “two others of an even younger generation than Cadeyrn”.

If you mean that the events were shortly before the NC’s founding – you have to be a sylvari, I think, and go in a certain order of questioning her after the final memory.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Or it was removed subliminally. Or from an obscure interview. I certainly do recall it.

But Bobby, why not look into your lore bible document and see what that says regarding the luminaries and birthdates? Because if it’s different (if something is said) then that may mean that whatever I saw was a slip up.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are simply mistaken? Is that really such an impossible thought?

We need to do a frieze of events to place them. it would be more convenient for us spotted. =)
A timeline, there’s nothing quite like to know where we stand.

(And our lore-master Konig should calm down a bit. ^^)

I can say that I have most definitely played dusk and night sylvari through those questlines several times over the past two years and not seen what you’re talking about, Konig.

Those are my favourite cycles and my favourite storylines, and I have never seen any such line. While it’s vaguely possible I somehow missed it multiple times, if no one else can come up with a “oh, yeah, I saw that, [X NPC] said it,” I really have to doubt it was ever there.

lordkrall.7241:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Or it was removed subliminally. Or from an obscure interview. I certainly do recall it.

But Bobby, why not look into your lore bible document and see what that says regarding the luminaries and birthdates? Because if it’s different (if something is said) then that may mean that whatever I saw was a slip up.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are simply mistaken? Is that really such an impossible thought?

Obviously. I had thought that was implied. And thanks, by the way, for taking the lines out of context and responding to them in a fashion as if I’m some condescending, uptight, overbearing asswipe.

You and the others who’ve been taking the reveal of the sylvari to insult me continuously have been so much fun to read.

Though I’m sure you’d take this to be in the exact same manner as you presented my previous post through your response. But guess what? I’m not a know-it-all. And until last year, I would tell others not to call me their various nicknames – to no prevail. If you actually knew me, you would know that I’m quite the opposite of what most people here think of me – either side of the coin, both those who insult me and those who appreciate my posts here.

But I digress. Could I have been wrong? Of course. But I’m fairly sure I saw somewhere, in some form, that the luminaries are the first born of their cycle and/or that the Firstborn were born over the course of 3 days. I just don’t recall where. And this isn’t the first time I’ve recalled something but not the source – like how sylvari couldn’t be corrupted by Kralkatorrik (eventually re-found that it was from the original sylvari page on guildwars2.com).

And because I may be wrong, is why I asked Bobby if he could state what their internal wiki or whatevertheycallit says.

All I know for certain is that I saw this before July 2014, as that’s when I first write it up on the wiki. Given that I was temp banned prior to, it could be as early as the Tower of Nightmares arc that I found it (and I did make a new sylvari then). But it may also have been an interview for all I know – which Anet can just toss aside because interviews are “malleable”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So Malomedies and Kahedins (given your hint, Trahearn’s Dusk) are liars in 7 instances of the Personal Story. Now, Kahedins’ (and Aife’s) lines can be interpreted on the second day but the first sunrise/sunset (implying the first of the cycle was born after the sun’s movement but during the cycle still), but Malomedies’ line (like Niamh’s) is harder to argue out (Melomedies’ more than Niamh’s).

Please feel free to explain this to me, since this is where the problem lies – less the claim that Wynne/Trahearne are first, but that the luminaries proclaim themselves they awoke on the first day of the sylvari race.

Personally I see it as saying that the first day is the first 24 hours (or however long a Tyrian day lasts :p)

I wonder, since for a human it’s pretty clear that a day is chronologically morning-noon-dusk-night. But there’s no indication that for sylvari it might just as well be dusk-night-dawn-noon, because their race started at dusk.

Personally about this whole thing I already had my suspicions that the dream isn’t all super clear and alot more vague. I’m pretty sure it’s a stretch in to the mists of sorts, while everyone knows the mists isn’t all that bound by normal rules.

AS to Angel original question:

And I’ll end this post on a question. What do you imagine that first conversation between Caithe and the Pale Tree was like, Spoiler if you haven't played all Season 2--and don't read the responsesafter Caithe killed Wynne? I’d love to hear your imaginings.

I merely presume Caithe got the task of protecting the secret of the sylvari. Of course the death of Wynne would need to be explained if it came out too early. In one way or another I usually found the Pale Tree to be pretty understanding in most cases.

And I think the egg probably has something to do with the task she got at that moment, or at least I had a feeling the Pale Tree had an idea what Caithe would be doing with the egg even though it wasn’t her intend. Which is probably why we got the memory seeds. Except it’s still not very clear why Caithe took the egg, but presuming that the egg is akin to Kralkatorrik as the sylvari are to Mordremoth then she could be devising something with that fact in hand.