Guild Wars 2

CureForLiving.5360:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So . . . you’re asking for more retcons.

Retcons aren’t bad. Retcons just mean that the writers can’t see into the future and all knowing about their own lore. As time goes on errors occur, to the writers decide to take the lore into a more interesting directs and inherently retcons are needed.

Further down, pretty much my view on retcons. Of course, you can do them well, or you can do them poorly. Or you can do them invisibly . . . though that’s much much harder and takes some groundwork laid down from day -1 to get done.

I must say this rather impressed me. For all the talk of following an agile approach I never actually felt that ANet was following a agile approach in terms of lore, given the policy of release and only minor bug fixes to mechanical aspects of content. Actually being willing to go back and improve and expand on existing lore I think is the best way forward, also it allows me to hold out hope for further expansions to the dialog trees (give me more dialog options please! )

Seriously, guys? Can we get better dialogue work than we have now? Because LS2 had so painfully linear dialogue going on . . . I mean, we don’t need Bioware-level plotting out of flags and values and triggers . . .

Sublimatio.6981:

My opinion is that you can’t deal with the fact that sylvari are just different and that’s it – reason might be the Pale Tree spawning them in the human image, after all she is their creator, not the dragon. And the Pale Tree herself was planted on human graves + Ventari taking care of it. Knowing you from your posts, you would probably say that only Altar of Glaust and the forgotten ritual cleanses corruption, but we already saw with Mawdrey that it’s not true and there are other ways of doing that, which means there may be many ways of undoing the corruption that we are just not aware of

My opinion is that the sylvari being dragon minions is a lesser story choice (compared to, for example, sylvari being Tyria’s “anti-dragon” system; thus you have the balancers of the world (Elder Dragons) being rejected by the very thing they should be balancing – but this is a matter of opinion), and that they’ve set it up with trying too hard to counter the thoughts that may lead to such a thought – which still failed – that they make the sylvari too different.

They don’t even consume magic – the very principle of the Elder Dragons and their minions. Even Glint still consumed magic. Even mordrem consume magic by their very presence (see The Concordia Incident). Even Mawdrey is fed nothing but highly-magically-potent “foods” (Bloodstone dust).

I wouldn’t say that the Altar of Glaust+Forgotten ritual is the sole way to purify corruption. In fact, I’d argue against that notion – it’s just the only known means of purification (though given Mawdrey, I’d argue a second known magic that could potentially purify dragon corruption: whatever powered the Foefire).

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And? All minions are not created equal – Destroyers have evolved as well in the last era or so. They act and for the most part look different than their original counterparts when you look past the “constructs of magma and stone”. The Great Destroyer did not resemble Glint, or Tequatl, or even the Nornbear . . .

(The Shatterer and Claw of Jormag on the other hand . . . look a lot alike.)

That’s the other thing, the Nornbear did not resemble or behave, or have powers anything like Icebrood. It could travel through the Mists. It was an intelligent stalker instead of an almost-mindless force. It doesn’t even resemble what Icebrood now resemble.

But the Nornbear and Icebrood both trace their origin of power back to Jormag.

Same deal with sylvari and mordrem. Same origin, different suite of powers and appearance.

As I pointed out in another thread – I won’t bother going into length again – there are common aspects seen across all dragon minions – including mordrem. The sylvari lack all of these for the most part. Some can be easily argued away, others cannot.

Dragon minion appearances do seem to evolve over time; Primordus and the destroyers’ case would be due to the fact that destroyers mimic living beings in shape and form (so the lore goes), so GW1 destroyers were likely copies from the previous dragonrise’s races, while GW2 destroyers are more modern races encountered. This could explain the differences between modern branded and Glint even, as we have evidence that claims Glint’s appearance pre-and-post-pufication remained unchanged.

But the sylvari don’t function akin to dragon minions. The most critical is magical consumption. Dragon minions – be it risen or mordrem or, likely, others – consume magic simply by proximity (see Field Test and The Concordia Incident). Sylvari don’t.

There are dozens of physical differences between mordrem and sylvari, but what truly matter are the functions they have. And they don’t even match mordrem. They don’t even match Mawdrey.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As I pointed out in another thread – I won’t bother going into length again – there are common aspects seen across all dragon minions – including mordrem. The sylvari lack all of these for the most part. Some can be easily argued away, others cannot.

There are common aspects, of course. But there’s also a fair amount of differences.

Dragon minion appearances do seem to evolve over time; Primordus and the destroyers’ case would be due to the fact that destroyers mimic living beings in shape and form (so the lore goes), so GW1 destroyers were likely copies from the previous dragonrise’s races, while GW2 destroyers are more modern races encountered.

The word “likely” indicates an assumption of fact. For myself, I figured it was a crude attempt at craft for function over form. But then, either one of us could be right on this point. Shall we stick a pin in it and come back later?

This could explain the differences between modern branded and Glint even, as we have evidence that claims Glint’s appearance pre-and-post-pufication remained unchanged.

Possibly, but she does have some semblance in common with the Shatterer. Only, well, clear crystal instead of purple sparking crystal. And the Shatterer does not exactly lay eggs so much as entice Branded into appearing from charged crystals. Assuming the events of the Beta Weekend 1 finale aren’t canon . . .

But the sylvari don’t function akin to dragon minions. The most critical is magical consumption. Dragon minions – be it risen or mordrem or, likely, others – consume magic simply by proximity (see Field Test and The Concordia Incident). Sylvari don’t.

Has this been tested and specifically stated yet? Field Test concerns asura characters, and The Concordia Incident didn’t have sylvari present. It’s evident dragon minions either consume magic or act as a channel to take magic in and send it to their master (I recall more the Mouth of Zhaitan…) but it seems to require specified items regardless. We have not seen all dragons doing this, as of yet – only Zhaitan and Mordremoth. And Jormag is, apparently, still active enough in the North.

I find this insufficient, without further research evidence to state any dragon minions cause this drain and not particularly constructed ones (recall once the Mouth of Zhaitan was dead, it had not yet dispatched another before we broke into Arah and killed a second one). I would believe they might spread the corruption even unwillingly (see: Kellach) but that isn’t quite the same.

Finally, the sylvari aren’t directly created through the dragon but through the Pale Tree. It is equally likely the Pale Tree’s willpower from whatever purified it or set it free from Mordremoth allows it to stay that particular ‘feature’ from the sylvari.

There are dozens of physical differences between mordrem and sylvari, but what truly matter are the functions they have. And they don’t even match mordrem. They don’t even match Mawdrey.

No, no they don’t. But as I said, they’re second-generation . . . shall we go back to the pinned bit earlier?

It is said outright the sylvari were intended to serve the dragon. That does not mean it directly created them, and it is even unclear at this time if it created the seed from which the Pale Tree sprouted. (Or Malyck’s tree. Really a lot of unknowns on that front.) The sylvari are grown and shaped by their mother tree, and apparently other mother trees, resembling but not copying completely the dominant species at the time the seeds had entered the world – during the time of the Great Destroyer. It is . . . possible, I would say, the Great Destroyer was not the only dragon lieutenant active at that time period. A lieutenant of Mordremoth could have been active setting these seeds out and preparing them. Who? Give me some time, I’ll come up with a list but any living being which had gone that far west in the Maguuma Jungle could have encountered the dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But the sylvari don’t function akin to dragon minions. The most critical is magical consumption. Dragon minions – be it risen or mordrem or, likely, others – consume magic simply by proximity (see Field Test and The Concordia Incident). Sylvari don’t.

Well… maybe not obviously or in mass quantities. Has anyone ever put a sylvari in a ‘magic-free environment’ for any great length of time, just to see what would happen?

Tyria is chock full of magic. It’s everywhere. Or, at least, never very far away.

I got the impression that the lack of the use of the word “minion” in the game was intentional.

Hessian Mercenaries were hired by England to fight against the upstart colonists. Those mercenaries were servants of England, but they were not English. They also kind of quickly abandoned their masters and joined up with the colonists…

I think that the Sylvari were more along the lines of an experiment in which Mordy cultivated them to be independent and intelligent, but susceptible to his influence.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are common aspects, of course. But there’s also a fair amount of differences.

So you are saying it makes sense for there to be no differences, yet also few-to-no similarities, including a lack of difference in the defining factors of what makes a dragon minion (e.g., hive mind and consumes magic)?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Has this been tested and specifically stated yet? Field Test concerns asura characters, and The Concordia Incident didn’t have sylvari present. It’s evident dragon minions either consume magic or act as a channel to take magic in and send it to their master (I recall more the Mouth of Zhaitan…) but it seems to require specified items regardless. We have not seen all dragons doing this, as of yet – only Zhaitan and Mordremoth. And Jormag is, apparently, still active enough in the North.

In Field Test, the mere presence of risen reduced the ambient magic in the location. In The Concordia Incident, the mere presence of mordrem drained magic from the artifacts the caravan was transporting.

The mere presence of sylvari don’t drain magic from the area/artifacts. If this were so, I doubt that the Priory would let sylvari in their Special Collections.

Jormag has been collecting specific types of artifacts (see Honor of the Waves explorable – Plunderer path), so we can’t really say that Jormag hasn’t done this. Furthermore, we also know that Glint consumed magic. That’s four dragons there.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I find this insufficient, without further research evidence to state any dragon minions cause this drain and not particularly constructed ones (recall once the Mouth of Zhaitan was dead, it had not yet dispatched another before we broke into Arah and killed a second one).

So the fact that the mere presence of mordrem drained magic from artifacts nearby doesn’t count for comparison to the sylvari – both coming from the same dragon? Interesting argument.

And you keep falling back to the Mouth of Zhaitan, but we both know that the Mouth is not the sole minion to consume magic by this very discussion. It’s just a specialized minion. Same with the Eyes of Zhaitan – it’s outright stated that Zhaitan knows all its minions know, but yet it has specialized champions to act as its eyes throughout Orr.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Finally, the sylvari aren’t directly created through the dragon but through the Pale Tree. It is equally likely the Pale Tree’s willpower from whatever purified it or set it free from Mordremoth allows it to stay that particular ‘feature’ from the sylvari.

But nothing hints to the Pale Tree consuming magic either; and Glint did consume magic.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, no they don’t. But as I said, they’re second-generation . . . shall we go back to the pinned bit earlier?

Okay, sure. Then why doesn’t the Pale Tree look even remotely mordrem-like either?

The Vinewrath and the Tower of Nightmares were practically identical except in size. But they are like weeds, whereas the Pale Tree is described as a great White Oak tree.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It is said outright the sylvari were intended to serve the dragon. That does not mean it directly created them, and it is even unclear at this time if it created the seed from which the Pale Tree sprouted. (Or Malyck’s tree. Really a lot of unknowns on that front.) The sylvari are grown and shaped by their mother tree, and apparently other mother trees, resembling but not copying completely the dominant species at the time the seeds had entered the world – during the time of the Great Destroyer.

mtpelion.4562:

I got the impression that the lack of the use of the word “minion” in the game was intentional.

-snip-

I think that the Sylvari were more along the lines of an experiment in which Mordy cultivated them to be independent and intelligent, but susceptible to his influence.

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

Tomatoes come from my garden, does that make them my children?

mtpelion.4562:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

Tomatoes come from my garden, does that make them my children?

Only if they were sentient, you created them to be sentient and to serve a specific purpose. Then in essence they could indeed be considered your “children”.

mtpelion.4562:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

Tomatoes come from my garden, does that make them my children?

This a false equivalency, a reduction to the absurd, that doesn’t offer any insight into what a Syvlvari means by “we come from the jungle dragon”.

Konig, I understand and appreciate your way of looking at the lore and I agree that the Sylvari story is contrived. I think it has been from been from the beginning. Would Tyria, a world filled with potentially dangerous magical artifacts, produce fathers willing to bring back an object with such clear indications of being dangerous and filled with unrealized potential back to their families and then plant that unkown, likely dangerous entity as a tribute to their family? A farmer in Vietnam would be as likely to bring back unexploded landmines and bury them where their children play. The Sylvari’s origin story is of father’s pathological naivete and lack of concern for the outcome of his actions passed off as sentimentality and grief.

I have learned not to chase writers through worlds where anything can happen and past ‘happenings’ can be re-written. Looking for logical patterns within a plastic universe can be frustrating. I would accept the lack of similarity between the Sylvari and other dragon minions as obvious ploys to prolong the suspense.

Forgive me if this comes across as a rant, but I see Tyria becoming the ‘The Island’ from a Lost; a source of plot twists and not a genuine place.

CureForLiving.5360:

DaShi didn’t say that I did :P
But nice work! (…) However it does seems rather short.

So sorry about that (happens when you try quoting a quoted quote of a quote :P) – corrected now. And yes, it’s still quite short. Work in progress

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

You both have good points. Not everything that comes from the Elder Dragons is a minion, as the Elder Dragons can create other warped and perturbed structures. However, every acting organism, prior to the Sylvari, that comes from them appears to be a minion (i.e., controlled, magic consuming agent). It’s possible that that the Elder Dragons are more creative in what they can create, and Sylvari are one such creation that was bestowed other properties to suit the goals of Mordy. It is a curiosity why the other dragons haven’t made similar attempts, or there haven’t been examples of this prior to this reveal.

mtpelion.4562:

Psientist.6437:

mtpelion.4562:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

Tomatoes come from my garden, does that make them my children?

This a false equivalency, a reduction to the absurd, that doesn’t offer any insight into what a Syvlvari means by “we come from the jungle dragon”.

Konig, I understand and appreciate your way of looking at the lore and I agree that the Sylvari story is contrived. I think it has been from been from the beginning. Would Tyria, a world filled with potentially dangerous magical artifacts, produce fathers willing to bring back an object with such clear indications of being dangerous and filled with unrealized potential back to their families and then plant that unkown, likely dangerous entity as a tribute to their family? A farmer in Vietnam would be as likely to bring back unexploded landmines and bury them where their children play. The Sylvari’s origin story is of father’s pathological naivete and lack of concern for the outcome of his actions passed off as sentimentality and grief.

I have learned not to chase writers through worlds where anything can happen and past ‘happenings’ can be re-written. Looking for logical patterns within a plastic universe can be frustrating. I would accept the lack of similarity between the Sylvari and other dragon minions as obvious ploys to prolong the suspense.

Forgive me if this comes across as a rant, but I see Tyria becoming the ‘The Island’ from a Lost; a source of plot twists and not a genuine place.

Your opinion is duly noted and discarded as being irrelevant. Your dislike of the story’s direction has clouded your ability to discuss this issue in a logical manner.

We do not know what “from the dragon” means yet, only that a firm connection to the dragon has been established.

I don’t dislike the direction of the story, never had a pet theory. My criticism is directed at how the writers find their path and in my opinion they are forging a path parallel to that of a Marty Stu’s. Please make a note of that

Would this firm connection be firmer than the connection between you and your tomatoes?

I don’t know if I’m in the right discussion but even if the seed planted by Ronan was from Mordremoth, the Pale Tree by itself could not be.
What I mean by that is the seed could have grown something else but this one particular has a connection with the Dream, which until now is not necessarily stated as a draconic realm.
For an unknown reason the seed planted by Ronan could have gotten access to the Dream which gave some sort of sentience to the tree, making it change from a “mordrem factory” to the Pale Tree as we know it. Then I wouldn’t treat the Pale Tree as a champion of Mordremoth.

Then the Tree shaped her children as human because of Ronan and gave them the teaching of an old centaur while protecting them with their connection to the Dream. But this protection is not invulnerable and now that Mordremoth is awaken he can strike it, especially now that the Tree is injured. Like he would reclaim his “children”.
So yes sylvari were meant to be draconic minions but thanks to the history of the Tree they escaped their fate and became another race.

Psientist.6437:

I don’t dislike the direction of the story, never had a pet theory. My criticism is directed at how the writers find their path and in my opinion they are forging a path parallel to that of a Marty Stu’s. Please make a note of that

Would this firm connection be firmer than the connection between you and your tomatoes?

That would be impossible to say at this point. I was merely pointing out that there are “levels” to the meaning of the word “from”. Until we have more data, we cannot exclude ANY of those levels from the realm of possibility. This means that jumping to the conclusion that “from” means “minion” is premature.

I’ll let you Lore experts chew on this, but shouldn’t the key word in what Wynne says be meant…from this line in The Mystery Cave: “Wynne: We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.” Yes, I know her first words are *We come from the jungle dragon", and 2nd are “We belong to it.”, but the telling line to me is “We’re meant to serve it.” which could have several connotations, depending on how you want to interpret it…IMO.

Personally I was not a supporter of the “sylvari are dragon minions” theory and there were not solid profs before last episode, but honestly we can admit that the whole reasoning against the theory had some fallacies.
The main difference from other dragon minions is the lack of magic absorbing stuff, but this remained me something: imagine you take a trip around the world, and you see all kind of mammals, until you find this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus

Or more in general, we should remember that not all swans are white
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

The interesting question is why sylvari have this difference.
Obviously from the writing point of view making them absorbing magic creature would have made the mystery of their origin a bit too obvious ( even if again this guy is not a bird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus), but in a in-game perspective I think there are two possibilities:
- they were meant to be different for some reason (i.e. Mordy decided so)
- the Pale Tree decided to make them this way.

Both options are intriguing to me

mtpelion.4562:

Psientist.6437:

I don’t dislike the direction of the story, never had a pet theory. My criticism is directed at how the writers find their path and in my opinion they are forging a path parallel to that of a Marty Stu’s. Please make a note of that

Would this firm connection be firmer than the connection between you and your tomatoes?

That would be impossible to say at this point. I was merely pointing out that there are “levels” to the meaning of the word “from”. Until we have more data, we cannot exclude ANY of those levels from the realm of possibility. This means that jumping to the conclusion that “from” means “minion” is premature.

I don’t care how contrived it sounds, but Mordermoth needs to be raising Sylvari as food….
500 chef confirmed?

Anet has all the information and they can make us (or at least try to) believe whatever they want regarding their story choice.

However, so many things are missing to make it really believable. The whole “sylvari are dragon minions” has to make so many twists and turns to make it really understandable.

I don’t really doubt that it was their great plan 7 years ago, because when you plan a story you at least give the big ideas and flesh them out later on. But between then and now, they certainly got lost along the way. And I feel that it was a lot to do with Anet trying to please the community.

I can believe believe that “sylvari were always planned to be dragon minions”, but I still refuse to believe that Scarlet’s story and all of S1 weren’t rushed because of negative feedback and the updates pace.

But right now, I’m following GW2’s story the same way as I’m reading Bleach every week.

My personal stance is that I can accept that Sylvari were always planned to be dragon minions, although I still believe that they are minions only in the sense that they are like a “domesticated race” used by Mordremoth as livestock/corruption candidates to form his Mordrem. The Pale Tree might belong to an ancient species present on Tyria from the time of the Giganticus Lupicus, that was conquered by Mordremoth long ago and assimilated into his armies. They are still their own distinct living species, but their long history of association with Mordremoth, along with their plant nature, makes them especially susceptible to his corruption.

In short, the Sylvari are dragon minions in the same way that the Sons of Svanir are dragon minions. They are not corrupted minions in and of themselves, but they frequently end up becoming them due to their affinity for the Elder Dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So you are saying it makes sense for there to be no differences, yet also few-to-no similarities, including a lack of difference in the defining factors of what makes a dragon minion (e.g., hive mind and consumes magic)?

They don’t have a hive mind per se, they have the Dream but once ‘born’ they don’t access it anymore from what I understand. Otherwise they would know a lot more than they show they do, individually.

(And Sieran wouldn’t be so clueless all the time.)

It’s still not something any of the other races, even the lesser ones, really have. Skritt come close with the strange nature of their intelligence . . . but it’s not the same as the Dream for the sylvari.

In Field Test, the mere presence of risen reduced the ambient magic in the location. In The Concordia Incident, the mere presence of mordrem drained magic from the artifacts the caravan was transporting.

The mere presence of sylvari don’t drain magic from the area/artifacts. If this were so, I doubt that the Priory would let sylvari in their Special Collections.

Jormag has been collecting specific types of artifacts (see Honor of the Waves explorable – Plunderer path), so we can’t really say that Jormag hasn’t done this. Furthermore, we also know that Glint consumed magic. That’s four dragons there.

But the mere presence of Destroyers didn’t seem to have such an effect on it in the past, nor did they seek out extraordinarily powerful locations and/or artifacts the first time they awoke. They did not behave as the newly-awakened Mordrem did, seeming more interested in spreading via asura gate than . . . say . . . going for the Bloodstones, or Scepter of Orr, or other places (the tomb Rotscale guarded in Majesty’s Rest).

So the fact that the mere presence of mordrem drained magic from artifacts nearby doesn’t count for comparison to the sylvari – both coming from the same dragon? Interesting argument.

No, the sylvari come from the Pale Tree. The mordrem are directly created by the dragon.

And you keep falling back to the Mouth of Zhaitan, but we both know that the Mouth is not the sole minion to consume magic by this very discussion. It’s just a specialized minion. Same with the Eyes of Zhaitan – it’s outright stated that Zhaitan knows all its minions know, but yet it has specialized champions to act as its eyes throughout Orr.

So if it knows everything its minions know, why create the Eyes at all? If it consumes everything through the risen rank-and-file, why create the Mouths? There has to have been a reason for their creation and function.

But nothing hints to the Pale Tree consuming magic either; and Glint did consume magic.

Nothing hints the Pale Tree isn’t consuming magic. As for Glint, if she consumed magic, why wasn’t it harder to deal with her? It should have been like . . . fighting near the Bloodstones. But it wasn’t. Her lair had a lot of odd effects to it (both times we’ve visited it) but they didn’t seem to fit “magic is consumed”.

Okay, sure. Then why doesn’t the Pale Tree look even remotely mordrem-like either? The Vinewrath and the Tower of Nightmares were practically identical except in size. But they are like weeds, whereas the Pale Tree is described as a great White Oak tree.

Yeah, but it doesn’t look like a great White Oak tree. Really makes me wonder what people think a White Oak looks like. Take a look at the Grove sometime – it’s all plant organics until you hit the ground level, then it’s some rock or soil but mostly plants. Oak trees . . . they don’t look like that. Their roots don’t look like that – they’re not GREEN, for instance, since there’s no active chlorophyll in them . . . no need to as they draw nutrients out of the soil in other ways. Which suggests they look green for another reason – it could be because it’s not an oak tree.

I’m sorry, but “we come from the jungle dragon” kind of says they do, indeed, come from the jungle dragon, and in turn that they are indeed dragon minions.

I come from Germany too. And Russia. And Ireland. And Poland. And the United States. I have practically only identifying features from maybe half of those regions right there.

By the way, I don’t think they’re dragon minions so much as a very suggestible crop (heh) of people who can be turned. Sort of like Zhaitan turned the tombs of Orr into his own personal army.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the mere presence of Destroyers didn’t seem to have such an effect on it in the past, nor did they seek out extraordinarily powerful locations and/or artifacts the first time they awoke.

You are wrong on the latter account. Clearly we wouldn’t know on the former due to the fact that the very fact that dragons (and their minions) consume magic wasn’t discovered until 1325 (lore discontinuity of Vekk’s and Gadd’s books aside).

And from Defending the Breach
Engineer Xapp: “How utterly fascinating! Those enormous savages have fabricated something quite remarkable. Could this structure, perchance, be drawing the attention and ire of the Destroyers?”
Engineer Xapp: “If my postulations are precise and this sanctuary is, indeed, a rallying point for invading Destroyers, then we shall need to expedite our descent. Otherwise, Captain Sargen’s group shall be caught betwixt and between.”
Engineer Xapp: “Regrettably, the conundrum of what draws the Destroyers here must await another day. Every Dwarf we save today puts another obstacle between me and danger tomorrow”

This is in reference to Raven Shrine; even in GW, the destroyers sought out places of magical power. It just wasn’t known why – nor ever speculated upon by NPC or player.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They did not behave as the newly-awakened Mordrem did, seeming more interested in spreading via asura gate than . . . say . . . going for the Bloodstones, or Scepter of Orr, or other places (the tomb Rotscale guarded in Majesty’s Rest).

This is more likely to do with the Great Destroyer. It was said that the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ alarm clock and herald – it was to prepare the way for Primordus’ awakening… by killing all life on the surface. It’s goal was genocide.

But it did go to the Central Transfer Chamber from elsewhere (it only just fell before the storyline, but the destroyers have managed to destroy “countless civilizations” already before we joined in – Source ) It also assaulted Glint’s child, sent minions to a magical golem factory, a spiritual shrine, and a Searing Cauldron. Curious, no?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, the sylvari come from the Pale Tree. The mordrem are directly created by the dragon.

And the Pale Tree comes from the dragon. Just like the mordrem we see seem to come from the Vinewrath. But they still consume magic. And they can all trace themselves back to Mordremoth.

It doesn’t seem to matter which champion created the dragon minions – so why would it for the sylvari? You’re stipulating this off of nothing but “maybes”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So if it knows everything its minions know, why create the Eyes at all? If it consumes everything through the risen rank-and-file, why create the Mouths? There has to have been a reason for their creation and function.

Specializations typically mean that you’re better than others. It’s like saying “an amateur biker can ride a motorcycle, so why use a professional dirt bike rider for a race?”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nothing hints the Pale Tree isn’t consuming magic. As for Glint, if she consumed magic, why wasn’t it harder to deal with her? It should have been like . . . fighting near the Bloodstones. But it wasn’t. Her lair had a lot of odd effects to it (both times we’ve visited it) but they didn’t seem to fit “magic is consumed”.

I can’t answer why it wasn’t harder to deal with Glint, though she was one of the toughest Prophecies bosses, but we know she consumed and held magic – this fact is the very foundation of the Zephyrite’s Aspect lore.

And why would fighting a being that consumes magic be akin to fighting near objects that exude magic?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah, but it doesn’t look like a great White Oak tree. Really makes me wonder what people think a White Oak looks like. Take a look at the Grove sometime – it’s all plant organics until you hit the ground level, then it’s some rock or soil but mostly plants.

You do realize that it’s explicitly stated that the Grove is grown by the sylvari, right? First by Kahedins, then later by Gardeners.

However, you’re deflecting the question. Why doesn’t the Pale Tree look anything akin to the mordrem?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

By the way, I don’t think they’re dragon minions so much as a very suggestible crop (heh) of people who can be turned. Sort of like Zhaitan turned the tombs of Orr into his own personal army.

You realize that Zhaitan didn’t create the tombs, and that he turned them into dragon minions right? It’s a poor comparison.

It would be like saying “Zhaitan created standard zombies so that he can corrupt them at a later date” rather than “Zhaitan created risen from tombs.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the mere presence of Destroyers didn’t seem to have such an effect on it in the past, nor did they seek out extraordinarily powerful locations and/or artifacts the first time they awoke.

You are wrong on the latter account. Clearly we wouldn’t know on the former due to the fact that the very fact that dragons (and their minions) consume magic wasn’t discovered until 1325 (lore discontinuity of Vekk’s and Gadd’s books aside).

And from “Defending the Breach”, This is in reference to Raven Shrine; even in GW, the destroyers sought out places of magical power. It just wasn’t known why – nor ever speculated upon by NPC or player.

Except the Destroyers did not seek out the Bear Shrine, or the Wolf Shrine. They only emerged in the Raven Point caverns., when we see later they can potentially emerge elsewhere.

They should have gone to the Eye of the North, by all accounts, but strangely . . . did not. Despite it being a rather potent site of power. Even now it’s silent but untouched. Why is that?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They did not behave as the newly-awakened Mordrem did, seeming more interested in spreading via asura gate than . . . say . . . going for the Bloodstones, or Scepter of Orr, or other places (the tomb Rotscale guarded in Majesty’s Rest).

This is more likely to do with the Great Destroyer. It was said that the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ alarm clock and herald – it was to prepare the way for Primordus’ awakening… by killing all life on the surface. It’s goal was genocide.

But it did go to the Central Transfer Chamber from elsewhere (it only just fell before the storyline, but the destroyers have managed to destroy “countless civilizations” already before we joined in – Source ) It also assaulted Glint’s child, sent minions to a magical golem factory, a spiritual shrine, and a Searing Cauldron. Curious, no?

It’s curious how it didn’t assault all sources but only a few. And left some more powerful ones untouched or even unlooked at. There was already a Destroyer Vent in the area of the Golem Forge, the charr presumably herded the Destroyers into a pit (where they conveniently stayed for a long period), but the Cathedral of Flame was untouched . . . other dungeons with places of power remained untouched, and they could have emerged and attacked Kaineng since they were apparently in old catacombs under it . . . they could have attacked Emperor Kisu, a source of incredible magical potential as evidenced by what Shiro was after. And they did not.

That’s more curious than the list of attacks, I think.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, the sylvari come from the Pale Tree. The mordrem are directly created by the dragon.

And the Pale Tree comes from the dragon. Just like the mordrem we see seem to come from the Vinewrath. But they still consume magic. And they can all trace themselves back to Mordremoth.

It doesn’t seem to matter which champion created the dragon minions – so why would it for the sylvari? You’re stipulating this off of nothing but “maybes”.

So do a lot of people, and so do you. But to be more precise, I’m stipulating a lot off the absence of certain things. Or of certain behaviors, much like you have about the sylvari consuming magic or not doing so.

It’s also uncertain if the Vinewrath is in fact the source of the mordrem . . . chances are it’s not since the vines fail to die after it does, and mordrem still are active after it is gone. Killing it does little except stop its own activity for a time. It’s a lot like the Shatterer, or the Mega Destroyer, or Tequatl (pre-Arah) in that it’s created for the purpose of fighting.

1/2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So if it knows everything its minions know, why create the Eyes at all? If it consumes everything through the risen rank-and-file, why create the Mouths? There has to have been a reason for their creation and function.

Specializations typically mean that you’re better than others. It’s like saying “an amateur biker can ride a motorcycle, so why use a professional dirt bike rider for a race?”

And that could explain why certain behaviors aren’t inherent to the sylvari. You’re handing me back my points as you argue they’re not with merit.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nothing hints the Pale Tree isn’t consuming magic. As for Glint, if she consumed magic, why wasn’t it harder to deal with her? It should have been like . . . fighting near the Bloodstones. But it wasn’t. Her lair had a lot of odd effects to it (both times we’ve visited it) but they didn’t seem to fit “magic is consumed”.

I can’t answer why it wasn’t harder to deal with Glint, though she was one of the toughest Prophecies bosses, but we know she consumed and held magic; this fact is the very foundation of the Zephyrite’s Aspect lore.

Short stories aren’t in canon. You know better. It can be accepted her remains held magical power, but that is not the same thing.

Also “toughest Prophecies bosses” . . . please. Good interrupt timing and a solid team of six could take her down. The Confessor put up a better fight than her. Either of the two, come to think of it.

And why would fighting a being that consumes magic be akin to fighting near objects that exude magic?

They consume life force and energy, and we know this very well. Specifically the type of energy that is tied to resurrective magics, but they still do. No magic was stronger near the Bloodstones so I confess I find it hard to believe they exude magic . . . no matter what I’m told, if we go by what is in evidence they do not, in fact, exude magic but consume life force.

Which still brings the question up – if they exude magic why did no Destroyers target them? Those should have been top of the list.

2/2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah, but it doesn’t look like a great White Oak tree. Really makes me wonder what people think a White Oak looks like. Take a look at the Grove sometime – it’s all plant organics until you hit the ground level, then it’s some rock or soil but mostly plants.

You do realize that it’s explicitly stated that the Grove is grown by the sylvari, right? First by Kahedins, then later by Gardeners.

However, you’re deflecting the question. Why doesn’t the Pale Tree look anything akin to the mordrem?

Why should it? Why do the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan not resemble the same Risen which we fight? Why does Tequatl the Sunless look as it does?

Why do the fern hounds not resemble sylvari, come to think of it?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

By the way, I don’t think they’re dragon minions so much as a very suggestible crop (heh) of people who can be turned. Sort of like Zhaitan turned the tombs of Orr into his own personal army.

You realize that Zhaitan didn’t create the tombs, and that he turned them into dragon minions right? It’s a poor comparison.

It would be like saying “Zhaitan created standard zombies so that he can corrupt them at a later date” rather than “Zhaitan created risen from tombs.”

He didn’t create the tombs, but there were already undead in the area. We know this from Shards of Orr. But then, Jormag is creating an army of Sons of Svanir so he can turn them into Icebrood so . . . you figure it out.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

By the way, I don’t think they’re dragon minions so much as a very suggestible crop (heh) of people who can be turned. Sort of like Zhaitan turned the tombs of Orr into his own personal army.

You realize that Zhaitan didn’t create the tombs, and that he turned them into dragon minions right? It’s a poor comparison.

It would be like saying “Zhaitan created standard zombies so that he can corrupt them at a later date” rather than “Zhaitan created risen from tombs.”

His compairson isn`t that far off, though.

Zaithan used his powers to his advantage to create his army. He was associated with the Dead, subsequently he should have an easier time to take control of them (which makes the whole necromancer stuff quite interesting in the fight against him, but I digress. Maybe dead constructs like a flesh golem work differently as a whole dead body.)

Tobias never said he created the dead, just that he was using them.
Like we use our knowledge to influence/alter crops to work more efficiently for us.

Of course Zaithan created more dead later on, but the Tombs of Orr were an easy to corrupt source of power.

Mordremoth is associated with Plant and Mind, sugesting that he is quite formidable with these areas.

Sylvari not only being sentient and being plants, could make them an easy target subsequently.
We know that Kalkatrorik also has a powerfull mind, that he is able to read other beings (like Glint could?), but we say it is actually Mordremoth`s domain.

So why take Sylvari over other races?
Is it because their “properties” make them easier to control, or is it because they were originaly spawned from him?

Maybe because they are the perfect combination of his associated powers, they are the perfect targets for him (I still believe the fact, that all influence over them happened at places where Mordremoth was located, aka the new areas. Aerin went crazy above Dry Top, Scarlet studied in that area and the Pact Sylvari went crazy as they flew into the west… coincidence? I think not…)

Maybe he is even able to control other beings, but it would strain him at the moment, since he would have a harder time fighting the minds of many non-plant beings.
Why exert more energy, if there is an easy target like the Sylvari and he get the job done that way as well.
(bringing up the idea of creating a mind shield for later, maybe ascension?)

If we go into evolution and how beings adapt to their enviroment, there could indeed be some Seeds who are not compatible with Mordremoth, simply because they were mutated, raised differently, etc.

Just because they come from a certain point, down the family tree, doesn`t mean they are the same.

The only one that is quite headscratching, though, would by Malyck`s pale tree .

I do agree with one thing – there’s a lot of “maybe” going on in either side of the argument and it all hinges on things either not said, or not present when it’s believed they should be. In absence of official lore detailing such things, there’s little to go on other than that.

There’s a lot more evidence for the sylvari’s potential for being corrupted by Mordremoth in two examples alone, possibly four : Ceara, Aerin and potentially Cadeyrn and Faolain. Suggesting either they are susceptible to it either from being plant-based life or the current conclusion of having been created with servitude in mind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Which still brings the question up – if they exude magic why did no Destroyers target them? Those should have been top of the list.

2/2

I think the Guild Wars 1 stuff has to be looked upon with a bit of distance.
Thinks that happen there, do not have to be fully fleshed out at that time.

However, there is also the thing, that what we see is not neccesary all that is happening.
We see the devours attack certain places and seemingly ignoring others.

Couldn`t that simply be because the Great Devourere only “just” (relative term) woke up at that time.
The fact that he went to Elona and Cantha are obvious ways to connect that content to the expansion, but could be seen as a simple scouting group, which used, or followed the magic flow of the Asura gates.

The attacks we wittness of the Destroyers are the first attempts of them, gaining magic and them excluding certain areas, might have been just some delgating reasons.

We might have not seen all attacks that were going on in the time we went around EotN and only saw, narratively speaking, only these attacks.

You mentioned potential targets. Just because they exist doesn`t mean I have to get them right away. Maybe I will get to them eventually, maybe never.

We fought an awakening being and were able to defeat it. We paid our price and in the end, we only won some extra time.
The great destroyer rose again. The eldar dragons followed. I think we should feel a bit lucky, about what our heroes acomplished at that time.

Thing is, if we start making excuses for that, we have to start making excuses for other things too, and we might as well stop trying to look at it as closely as Konig is on “why do these things not resemble these other things”.

If the behavior is a part of it, it must be examined from the GW1 era as well as GW2 era. In short, if we know these things are the primary piece of behaviors in absence of direct orders, then why was it inconsistent in the beginning?

If appearance is a part of it, then it must also be examined as a whole and not just restraining it to only trying to investigate the sylvari and mordrem. It has to be looked at for Branded and Glint, or Destroyers all across the board, or Nornbear and Icebrood.

And there is a significant problem in “if we didn’t hear about it, we need to assume it happened anyway” . . . because we didn’t hear about it after the fact either.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Thing is, if we start making excuses for that, we have to start making excuses for other things too, and we might as well stop trying to look at it as closely as Konig is on “why do these things not resemble these other things”.

If the behavior is a part of it, it must be examined from the GW1 era as well as GW2 era. In short, if we know these things are the primary piece of behaviors in absence of direct orders, then why was it inconsistent in the beginning?

If appearance is a part of it, then it must also be examined as a whole and not just restraining it to only trying to investigate the sylvari and mordrem. It has to be looked at for Branded and Glint, or Destroyers all across the board, or Nornbear and Icebrood.

And there is a significant problem in “if we didn’t hear about it, we need to assume it happened anyway” . . . because we didn’t hear about it after the fact either.

Of course, didn`t stop them from using that in the LS, did`t it?

We are supposed to see the whole world that way. That we only see a glmips of what is happening.
These are their limitations. It would be nice of course if they come out and set things straight.

Right now we just have to accept that there is apearently a giant pact construction yard somwhere in Tyria, which produced an army of ships, which were just shot down.
Including two or more Glory of Tyria sized ones.

The story we are getting told is only a glimps of everything, due to obvious limitations of the open world. They do not use phasing at the moment.

Problem 1, as you had said, is that we can only observe these glimpses and construct our theories from that.
Problem 2, is that they do not come out and actually say how it really is.
They try to show things later on, however that takes time and as they finaly come around to it, the damage is done.

btw. when do we finaly see the Pact Main base? I know we lost the fleet, doesn`t mean we have no base of operation. Fort Trinity is like Resolve just an forward outpost.
We need to get this stuff visible coordinated. This is a war…

Ronin.7381:

A lot better than Sylvari being Tyria’s Immune System against all Elder Dragons, were you to ask me.

A weak plot if you asked me. Why is it weak? Well one of the many things I’ve been told both for a D&D Campaign and a Novel is not to give the answer to your audience, such as leaving so many clues they already have the major reveals figured out long before you reach that point or the answer is in plain sight obvious to anyone who wishes to know. A few clues here and there is find, so long as they are direct enough the audience sees them but vague enough that no definite conclusions could be drawn from it.

What should have happened when this theory started gaining popularity was Anet seeding misinformation that supported the Immune System idea, or at least information that grew into opposing hypotheses of rivaling popularity. This of course assuming this was truly planned from the start, but then again looking at how it was presented from beginning of the game to now I am left thinking this statement is an attempt to deflect some of the backlash that may arise from the community. Another possibility is to give the community something to lash out at while they tinker on something in the background in relative peace.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Except the Destroyers did not seek out the Bear Shrine, or the Wolf Shrine. They only emerged in the Raven Point caverns., when we see later they can potentially emerge elsewhere.

They should have gone to the Eye of the North, by all accounts, but strangely . . . did not. Despite it being a rather potent site of power. Even now it’s silent but untouched. Why is that?

Let me get this straight. Your argument is “because they don’t go after all of the magical locations, they weren’t targeting magical locations”?

Why would have have to go to Bear/Wolf Shrine? Why would they have to go to the Eye of the North? And on the Eye, your last statement holds something to think about: why has Jormag apparently avoided it?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There was already a Destroyer Vent in the area of the Golem Forge, the charr presumably herded the Destroyers into a pit (where they conveniently stayed for a long period), but the Cathedral of Flame was untouched . . . other dungeons with places of power remained untouched, and they could have emerged and attacked Kaineng since they were apparently in old catacombs under it . . . they could have attacked Emperor Kisu, a source of incredible magical potential as evidenced by what Shiro was after. And they did not.

Why would they go to Cantha if they were nowhere near (that intro quest is of questionable canonocity as it would place the group under Kamadan, Lion’s Arch, and Kaineng at the exact same time)? What’s so fancy at the Cathedral of Flames (there wasn’t any powerful artifacts, just Ascalonian artifacts that ghosts tied themselves to).

And what Shiro was targeting was the royal blood. Likely no more potent than any others’ blood.

And that fissure wasn’t there before the factory – that was how they went to attack it. Unless I’m forgetting something and you’d like to enlighten me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So do a lot of people, and so do you. But to be more precise, I’m stipulating a lot off the absence of certain things. Or of certain behaviors, much like you have about the sylvari consuming magic or not doing so.

It’s also uncertain if the Vinewrath is in fact the source of the mordrem . . . chances are it’s not since the vines fail to die after it does, and mordrem still are active after it is gone. Killing it does little except stop its own activity for a time.

My arguments have been based off of dialogue and observations. Hardly “maybes”. But the Vinewrath is stated to be the source of the local mordrem, at the very least, and that’s my point – it may not be the source but it is a source, meaning that not all mordrem come directly from the dragon – the argument you’re holding for why sylvari differ.

Furthermore, Vinewrath doesn’t die, it retreats.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And that could explain why certain behaviors aren’t inherent to the sylvari. You’re handing me back my points as you argue they’re not with merit.

You’re going to explain how all minions having shared traits but other minions being better at said shared traits explains why there can be minions without said shared traits.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Short stories aren’t in canon. You know better. It can be accepted her remains held magical power, but that is not the same thing.

Also “toughest Prophecies bosses” . . . please. Good interrupt timing and a solid team of six could take her down. The Confessor put up a better fight than her. Either of the two, come to think of it.

Angel McCoy explicitly stated that the short stories are canon. And besides, that short story was put in-game

Pre-Factions, she and Rotscale were two of the toughest fights for most players. But that’s all subjective, especially if you know the biggest tricks to fighting a certain boss. Every boss has mechanical exploits that allow perfect destruction against – Glint was no exception.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They consume life force and energy, and we know this very well. Specifically the type of energy that is tied to resurrective magics, but they still do. No magic was stronger near the Bloodstones so I confess I find it hard to believe they exude magic . . . no matter what I’m told, if we go by what is in evidence they do not, in fact, exude magic but consume life force.

Which still brings the question up – if they exude magic why did no Destroyers target them? Those should have been top of the list.

The Bloodstones didn’t “consume life force and energy” or “energy that is tied to resurrection magic”. You’re very mistaken on the lore. What happened is that the Bloodstones were used as catalysts for the Soul Batteries taking souls of those killed atop of Bloodstones – resurrection couldn’t work because the souls were trapped. No soul, no resurrection (resurrection was still possible mechanically, but not by lore). No energy draining involved. No life force draining done by the Bloodstone itself.

As to why no destroyer targeted them? Maybe because 2 of the 3 known were out of the game area, and the third was far away from any destroyer activity and – as I said above – the apparent goal of the destroyer wasn’t “consume magic” but “kill all the things”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why should it? Why do the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan not resemble the same Risen which we fight? Why does Tequatl the Sunless look as it does?

Why do the fern hounds not resemble sylvari, come to think of it?

I would say that the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan do resemble the common risen – especially eyes, which is basically a risen tied to an anchor holding a giant eyeball. Tequatl is also very risen-looking; compare it to the abomination. The only difference is the shape, not the appearance.

And sylvan hounds do look akin to sylvari – colors aside, the texture is very similar. Unlike every mordrem out there.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

He didn’t create the tombs, but there were already undead in the area. We know this from Shards of Orr. But then, Jormag is creating an army of Sons of Svanir so he can turn them into Icebrood so . . . you figure it out.

Shards of Orr wasn’t anywhere close to Orr. It was in the Tarnished Coast, across the Strait of Malchor.

And Jormag isn’t really “creating” the Sons of Svanir – according to their lore, the Sons of Svanir are formed by their own choices to join. Then they come into contact to Jormag and his corruption via the shamans. This is vastly different from, say, Jormag creating sapient ice elementals just to later corrupt them.

Jaken.6801:

-snip-

Your argument seems, to me, to be missing the fact that: “We come from the jungle dragon.” – Wynne

If this was simply a case of Mordremoth targeting an unrelated plant race because hey, they’re plants and twisting plants is his thing, then I’d 100% agree that makes sense and is a proper comparison to Zhaitan and tombs. The thing is, however, that isn’t the case.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jaken.6801:

-snip-

Your argument seems, to me, to be missing the fact that: “We come from the jungle dragon.” – Wynne

If this was simply a case of Mordremoth targeting an unrelated plant race because hey, they’re plants and twisting plants is his thing, then I’d 100% agree that makes sense and is a proper comparison to Zhaitan and tombs. The thing is, however, that isn’t the case.

Am I really missing it?

Them being from the dragon is the obvious reason why he did take them over.
However it is still unclear what Wynne`s words really meant.

We are facing a jungle dragon and the race who is closely connected to the ED who is supposed to govern plant and mind takes the one race he would by nature have easy access to?

I just give another reason why they could have turned. I do not ignore the fact that they are or might be from the dragon.

We do not know enough about what makes the Sylvari different from (debateble) normal minions.
Are they still minions?

I just say it makes more sense. It`s like these glowing yellow parts in modern video games.
Mordremoth saw the army comming, saw the yellow glowing Sylvari and fired his mind bender on them. Critical hit.

To be honest, Sylvari against a plant dragon is like a straw puppet jumping into a vulcano in my book.
As soon as we figured out the plant mind relation things were going down for the Sylvari.

Them being dragon minions does only add a factor to the allready unfavourable calculation.

We got powerfull eldar dragon + power over plant/plantlike creatures + mind control (over plants so far. Don`t know if they go further with that angle) + Dragon corruption (+ supposed mega intellect + strategy) vs Unexplained Sylvari dragon corruption immunity.

So far not being able to be corrupted does not mean they are immune to other attacks.
Even if you give someone the strongest shield and strongest spear, it still depends on the wielder.

Morkel.2039:

Personally I was not a supporter of the “sylvari are dragon minions” theory and there were not solid profs before last episode, but honestly we can admit that the whole reasoning against the theory had some fallacies.
The main difference from other dragon minions is the lack of magic absorbing stuff, but this remained me something: imagine you take a trip around the world, and you see all kind of mammals, until you find this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus

Or more in general, we should remember that not all swans are white
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

The interesting question is why sylvari have this difference.
Obviously from the writing point of view making them absorbing magic creature would have made the mystery of their origin a bit too obvious ( even if again this guy is not a bird http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus), but in a in-game perspective I think there are two possibilities:
- they were meant to be different for some reason (i.e. Mordy decided so)
- the Pale Tree decided to make them this way.

Both options are intriguing to me

About Falsifiability, personally I don’t think it might apply to the magic consumption itself. To the sylvari as whole in this debate maybe, but not to the consumption. The problem is, dragons themselves are defined by their need to consume magic. It’s not a variable, like the different ways EDs corrupt. It’s the very foundation of their existence that they need to consume magic. It’s what makes dragons a part of the cycle of ‘nature’.
And by extension, all dragon minions absorb magic as well. Tequatl’s power boost and Ogden mentioning Glint potentially becoming an Elder dragon over time also point towards that, in addition to what has been said before.

Assuming Sylvari are the hipsters among dragon minions (we stopped consuming magic before it was cool!) leaves us with the following questions:

- Can EDs which nature it is to consume magic create champions and minions that don’t? Isn’t that contradicting?
- If EDs could stop consuming magic at will while awake and create minions that do not share the need either, what need keeps them from stopping? Wouldn’t the idea of them being able to stop not go against the idea of them as part of a natural cycle and it being their nature?
- Assuming the Pale Tree is the one to absorb magic as she is a dragon champion, how did she eliminate the need of magic for her spawn?
- Furthermore, assuming that the spawn of freed dragon champions does not need magic unlike their parent would mean in regards to replacing the EDs, Glint’s egg is useless?
- If the Pale Tree is simply unique and the parallel to Glint is not the case, meaning sylvari and the tree do not absorb magic while glint’s offspring does, again: what replaced/eliminated the need for magic that is present in all other dragon minions as it is part of their being? What completely annihilated everything that makes a dragon minion a dragon minion?

Though, just like with many things right now we might just be missing half of the picture. That wouldn’t make the reasoning itself wrong, it’d just mean we’re trying to puzzle with only a half book with the pages we have.
Anet could just reveal and put the mystery factor in this equation in and woop there it is. Though what we have in our hands right now conflicts with that idea.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Let me get this straight. Your argument is “because they don’t go after all of the magical locations, they weren’t targeting magical locations”?

No, I said it was curious and bore some questions for it.

Why would have have to go to Bear/Wolf Shrine? Why would they have to go to the Eye of the North? And on the Eye, your last statement holds something to think about: why has Jormag apparently avoided it?

I’d submit Wolf Shrine was attacked – by the Nornbear who was in those caverns. Not to mention that was in Drakkar Lake, where the frozen . . . whatever . . . in the lake probably was draining from it anyway. Someone reminded me of it last night.

As for the Eye of the North, it’s a good question. Neither of us have an answer and can only speculate, but I’m also curious – if it was standing before the Vanguard chose to move in and seems undamaged, why is it in ruins two hundred and fifty years later yet nothing has moved in?

It’s a source of far too many questions only answerable with one out-of-game answer: because it needs to be unconquered so players can go there and retrieve their “legacy”.

Why would they go to Cantha if they were nowhere near (that intro quest is of questionable canonocity as it would place the group under Kamadan, Lion’s Arch, and Kaineng at the exact same time)?

You might question it, but it did happen. As of yet no single one of those three introduction quests has been held up as canon. (It probably never will be determined one is worth more than the others.)

What’s so fancy at the Cathedral of Flames (there wasn’t any powerful artifacts, just Ascalonian artifacts that ghosts tied themselves to).

Fancy? The large amount of energy the Flame Legion had bound there in the process of making it a center of their worship. It bugs me slightly there aren’t Destroyers there when they were painting them as “the new Gods” . . . .

As for the other dungeons, there are the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar or the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. Both involve powerful dwarven artifacts which went untouched.

And what Shiro was targeting was the royal blood. Likely no more potent than any others’ blood.

Right, and it carried power enough to turn him into something capable of bending reality to make the seas turn to jade and the forest to stone. So all that potential power and it wasn’t interesting?

And that fissure wasn’t there before the factory – that was how they went to attack it. Unless I’m forgetting something and you’d like to enlighten me.

It was there beforehand, because the ranger boss “Storm of Destruction” was there for skill capturing. Look it up. You can actually go there at any time before doing that major quest and it’ll be there.

My arguments have been based off of dialogue and observations. Hardly “maybes”. But the Vinewrath is stated to be the source of the local mordrem, at the very least, and that’s my point – it may not be the source but it is a source, meaning that not all mordrem come directly from the dragon – the argument you’re holding for why sylvari differ.

Actually, my one argument for why they differ is because they’re not meant to be like mordrem, they’re meant to be like something else. Also, notably there is more than one source of the sylvari as Malyck proves.

My second argument would be because of the influence of Ronan’s corpse giving a “template” of sorts to shape the sylvari on, but that largely assumes a lot as to other trees which are out there doing the same.

You’re going to explain how all minions having shared traits but other minions being better at said shared traits explains why there can be minions without said shared traits.

I don’t need to explain it, you need to explain why it is imperative all minions share those traits you have selected when it’s clear they don’t have to.

Pre-Factions, she and Rotscale were two of the toughest fights for most players. But that’s all subjective, especially if you know the biggest tricks to fighting a certain boss. Every boss has mechanical exploits that allow perfect destruction against – Glint was no exception.

Rotscale I can give people, but that’s because it cheats. Pretty much that fight is designed to be fought right there where anyone approaching is going to be wasted thanks to an incredibly good defensive setup.

Pre-Factions, the Doppleganger was also said to be one of the toughest fights. I walked through it the first time too. Rangers made it real easy to do so, especially those who invested in the pet a lot.

Fighting Glint didn’t require a lot of tricks, that more required paying attention to enemy skills. (I credit it as one of the few quiet lessons about how to play PvP – “know what your foe is doing”.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Bloodstones didn’t “consume life force and energy” or “energy that is tied to resurrection magic”. You’re very mistaken on the lore.

I’m more looking at what happened when you were near the Bloodstones, three times. The first time, it hampers resurrection skills (“Resurrection skills take 4 times as long to cast”), and the second time it takes energy when people die and has effects when that happens.

As to why no destroyer targeted them? Maybe because 2 of the 3 known were out of the game area, and the third was far away from any destroyer activity and – as I said above – the apparent goal of the destroyer wasn’t “consume magic” but “kill all the things”.

But you argued they were drawn to the Raven Shrine because it was a magical location.

I would say that the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan do resemble the common risen – especially eyes, which is basically a risen tied to an anchor holding a giant eyeball. Tequatl is also very risen-looking; compare it to the abomination. The only difference is the shape, not the appearance.

See, I don’t think they resemble them enough.

And sylvan hounds do look akin to sylvari – colors aside, the texture is very similar. Unlike every mordrem out there.

I think sylvari hounds and mordrem wolves look close enough alike, too. Remove the leafy coverings over the back, and you’re pretty close.

Shards of Orr wasn’t anywhere close to Orr. It was in the Tarnished Coast, across the Strait of Malchor.

That’s where Orr was.

And Jormag isn’t really “creating” the Sons of Svanir – according to their lore, the Sons of Svanir are formed by their own choices to join. Then they come into contact to Jormag and his corruption via the shamans. This is vastly different from, say, Jormag creating sapient ice elementals just to later corrupt them.

That’s like saying the mursaat had nothing to do with creating the White Mantle, because people chose to join and possibly weren’t aware of the mursaat. We know the mursaat at least guided it to being formed, with interest in making it go a certain direction.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You might question it, but it did happen. As of yet no single one of those three introduction quests has been held up as canon. (It probably never will be determined one is worth more than the others.)

The Kryta one has – there’s explicit mention of an asura gate underneath Lion’s Arch during War in Kryta.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fancy? The large amount of energy the Flame Legion had bound there in the process of making it a center of their worship. It bugs me slightly there aren’t Destroyers there when they were painting them as “the new Gods” . . . .

As for the other dungeons, there are the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar or the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. Both involve powerful dwarven artifacts which went untouched.

Funny, I don’t recall any mention of there being a “large amount of energy” in Cathedral of Flames. As for the others, I’d have to just say “why would they attack all magical locations?”

Just because some weren’t attacked doesn’t mean destroyers don’t consume magic. It’s like saying Zhaitan doesn’t consume magic because he didn’t personally go to the Ring of Fire Islands and consume the magic of the bloodstone there.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Right, and it carried power enough to turn him into something capable of bending reality to make the seas turn to jade and the forest to stone. So all that potential power and it wasn’t interesting?

Uh… the Jade Wind was powered by magic gifted by Dwayna. Per An Empire Divided. So no, the royal Canthan blood cannot power something on the scale of the Jade Wind. That was a gods’ gift that got twisted.

And doesn’t exist in Kisu.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It was there beforehand, because the ranger boss “Storm of Destruction” was there for skill capturing. Look it up. You can actually go there at any time before doing that major quest and it’ll be there.

Because you can tell when the instance and the open world takes place in accordance to each other when the maps never change (sole exception: the garden zone in Vabbi). Right. Very convincing argument there.

Also, the foundry is there still! Sure, it doesn’t have anti-destroyer golems yet, but it’s still a golem foundry – and golems are powered by magic.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

My second argument would be because of the influence of Ronan’s corpse giving a “template” of sorts to shape the sylvari on, but that largely assumes a lot as to other trees which are out there doing the same.

Which was debunked – in a way – back in 2009. It was stated that the sylvari’s humanoid appearance is due to the Pale Tree shaping them to be roughly humanoid due to the influence from Ronan. Got nothing to do with corpses.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t need to explain it, you need to explain why it is imperative all minions share those traits you have selected when it’s clear they don’t have to.

Where is it “clear” that they don’t have to?

As Elysian stated, the consumption of magic is THE defining point of Elder Dragons and their minions. It is THE core of their lore.

You want an explanation? There you have it. But please do explain how there can be so many differences between mordrem and sylvari, when such differences don’t exist between different kinds of risen, different kinds of destroyers, etc.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m more looking at what happened when you were near the Bloodstones, three times. The first time, it hampers resurrection skills (“Resurrection skills take 4 times as long to cast”), and the second time it takes energy when people die and has effects when that happens.

The first two times happened because of the Soul Batteries.

The third time it released an aura (exuding magic) that triggered on deaths (not dissimilar to necromancy, hence the theory that such magic was of the Aggression school).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But you argued they were drawn to the Raven Shrine because it was a magical location.

But I never argued that they are drawn far distances to all magical locations.

There was an asura gate leading near Raven Shrine. They passed through it, felt nearby magical power, and gathered toward said magical power. That’s what seems to be the situation, since they arrived in the area via a gate. The same is likely true for all other nearby magical locations – they gathered there because they were passing by, not because they sought it out.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

See, I don’t think they resemble them enough.

Far, far more than sylvari to mordrem, though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I think sylvari hounds and mordrem wolves look close enough alike, too. Remove the leafy coverings over the back, and you’re pretty close.

I fail to see how a normal wolf animal’s corpse that has a flower parasite puppeteering it is anywhere akin to a fully plant hound.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s where Orr was.

No. You’re not listening. Shards of Orr was in the Tarnished Coast – which is across the Strait of Malchor from Orr. Shards of Orr is not in Orr, it was a militant settlement of Orr.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s like saying the mursaat had nothing to do with creating the White Mantle, because people chose to join and possibly weren’t aware of the mursaat. We know the mursaat at least guided it to being formed, with interest in making it go a certain direction.

That’s a false comparison.

The Sons of Svanir formed because norn saw Svanir’s power boost and wanted the same. They sought Jormag out, not the other way around. This is established in Edge of Destiny – when Eir is explaining the history of Jormag’s rise to Logan before the Dragonspawn fight.

With the White Mantle: Saul stumbled upon the mursaat and then spread its teachings.

If you want to properly compare White Mantle to Sons of Svanir, then what needed to happen was for Svanir to found the cult named after him. But he didn’t, therefore the comparison doesn’t match.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The first two times happened because of the Soul Batteries.

There were no Soul Batteries in Bloodstone Fen.

The third time it released an aura (exuding magic) that triggered on deaths (not dissimilar to necromancy, hence the theory that such magic was of the Aggression school).

But it wasn’t a release in proportion to the strength of the death triggering the effect. Which means there is a variable amount of entropy in the process. Which leads me to point out it is still, thusly, taking in energy even if it is to release a portion of it out again.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But you argued they were drawn to the Raven Shrine because it was a magical location.

But I never argued that they are drawn far distances to all magical locations.

There was an asura gate leading near Raven Shrine. They passed through it, felt nearby magical power, and gathered toward said magical power. That’s what seems to be the situation, since they arrived in the area via a gate. The same is likely true for all other nearby magical locations – they gathered there because they were passing by, not because they sought it out.
[/quote]

I presented a different perspective above -they attacked those sites because they represented a threat to them, not simply to consume them. Much the same as Svanir seemed to continue being drawn around the Wolf Shrine in the form of the Nornbear. He was not (apparently) consuming its power, since it could still be utilized to secure a blessing.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I think sylvari hounds and mordrem wolves look close enough alike, too. Remove the leafy coverings over the back, and you’re pretty close.

I fail to see how a normal wolf animal’s corpse that has a flower parasite puppeteering it is anywhere akin to a fully plant hound.

. . . you’re right, fern hounds are probably closer to Risen then in that example. Forget I said anything about them resembling sylvari in that case.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s where Orr was.

No. You’re not listening. Shards of Orr was in the Tarnished Coast – which is across the Strait of Malchor from Orr. Shards of Orr is not in Orr, it was a militant settlement of Orr.

That’s only because Orr as a region didn’t exist in GW1, due to it being . . . mostly underwater. It seemed pretty clear it was close enough to have some malign influence creating undead. Hinting at Zhaitan, so it seemed.

Also, if it was a settlement of Orr than it’s Orrian territory. Which means it’s effectively in Orr.

The Sons of Svanir formed because norn saw Svanir’s power boost and wanted the same. They sought Jormag out, not the other way around. This is established in Edge of Destiny – when Eir is explaining the history of Jormag’s rise to Logan before the Dragonspawn fight.

And Eir’s been wrong before, not to mention other characters being mistaken on factual basis in the past.

With the White Mantle: Saul stumbled upon the mursaat and then spread its teachings.

And it didn’t catch fire until the mursaat stepped in and helped push back the charr themselves, before vanishing with Saul and leaving Dorian in charge. In short, the mursaat created the White Mantle we see while Saul created the name and the basis of them.

If you want to properly compare White Mantle to Sons of Svanir, then what needed to happen was for Svanir to found the cult named after him. But he didn’t, therefore the comparison doesn’t match.

Ah. But we don’t know he didn’t. We know he was corrupted by the power leaking out of the frozen lake, and we know for some indeterminate amount of time he was ravaging homesteads before he was slain by Jora. We don’t know what happened before our characters came into the picture.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Kryta one has – there’s explicit mention of an asura gate underneath Lion’s Arch during War in Kryta.

Great! And the other two?

Funny, I don’t recall any mention of there being a “large amount of energy” in Cathedral of Flames. As for the others, I’d have to just say “why would they attack all magical locations?”

We also don’t have any mention of there not being energy there. Though there is whatever magic was used to make the Effigies and whatever power permits the ghosts to be as potent as they are in the return trip.

Just because some weren’t attacked doesn’t mean destroyers don’t consume magic. It’s like saying Zhaitan doesn’t consume magic because he didn’t personally go to the Ring of Fire Islands and consume the magic of the bloodstone there.

And I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing there was far better targets than the ones which were chosen, and easier to breach and seize. If consumption is a key drive of the Elder Dragons – why is it these were overlooked when it is clear Mordremoth doesn’t need to be made aware of strong magical sources . . . it just is.

So why not those places?

Uh… the Jade Wind …

I stand corrected on Kisu, but there are still sources which could have been taken in Cantha not far from where the Destroyers would have been from spotting where the fissure entrance was. Similarly, Elona, but there’s not as many on Istan as there were in Kaineng.

Because you can tell when the instance and the open world takes place in accordance to each other when the maps never change (sole exception: the garden zone in Vabbi). Right. Very convincing argument there.

You asked me to point it out. Don’t get snarky because I did. Also, the maps may not change but spawns would “phase” and it was possible to do that as of Nightfall. If they chose not to do it in EOTN for this, it might be because . . . those Destroyers were meant to be there.

Also, the foundry is there still! Sure, it doesn’t have anti-destroyer golems yet, but it’s still a golem foundry – and golems are powered by magic.

Sure, you’re correct in the old parts of it still stand and it is still active. So why hasn’t anyone gone after it, if the Destroyers saw it as something worth going after?

2/3

Which was debunked – in a way – back in 2009. It was stated that the sylvari’s humanoid appearance is due to the Pale Tree shaping them to be roughly humanoid due to the influence from Ronan. Got nothing to do with corpses.

Ronan and Ronan’s corpse are, potentally, one and the sane if we talk about humanoid form due to the influence.

Where is it “clear” that they don’t have to?

Well . . . sylvari, for one.

As Elysian stated, the consumption of magic is THE defining point of Elder Dragons and their minions. It is THE core of their lore.

The core of their lore has more parts to it than that. The cycle of awakening is part of it, the fact no cycle has succeeded in preventing wholesale destruction of life on Tyria is part of it, and the notable fact we did manage to destroy what was thought to be indestructible.

You want an explanation? There you have it. But please do explain how there can be so many differences between mordrem and sylvari, when such differences don’t exist between different kinds of risen, different kinds of destroyers, etc.

First and simply – because there are and it was already stated to be. So there are the differences already.

But if you insist . . . you already gave one potential answer – due to Ronan’s influence, the sylvari are not like mordrem except in lineage being traced back to Mordremoth. Considering we aren’t sure what that “influence” consisted of or what was done to the seed prior to it being planted, there’s a lot of what we don’t know going on.

Though, this does bring the snag of Malyck . . . again . . . to the forefront. If he is from another tree, why does that tree produce sylvari which also have a humanoid form and aren’t like mordrem? Was the other tree influenced in the same fashion by a human, and if so how did that come to happen? How many more other trees exist and are they all producing sylvari or are some producing mordrem?

Third, we do not know if sylvari or the pale tree consume magic passively to the extent the Risen did during the mission you mentioned before. Considering it’s unclear if the Destroyers of a past age did or did not seek out magic instinctively to consume it . . . or instead instinctively struck out at magic which was capable of harming them . . . there is much doubt here.

Too much doubt to say with certainty a dragon minion needs to actively be consuming magic at the same rate at all times.

3/3

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I wouldn’t say that the Altar of Glaust+Forgotten ritual is the sole way to purify corruption. In fact, I’d argue against that notion – it’s just the only known means of purification (though given Mawdrey, I’d argue a second known magic that could potentially purify dragon corruption: whatever powered the Foefire).

It might be worth going through the Mawdrey purification locations to see any lore threads that can be drawn between them to give a better idea of why Mawdrey was able to be purified. Personally I think Mawdrey might be a paralel to the Pale Tree – a seed of Mordrem origins that grows to become “good”. It’s implied that Mawdrey is influenced by the heroism of the PC hero, which also has a lot of parallels with Ronan and Ventari. Even Wynne, who at the time knew the origin of the sylvari, heavily emphasises the importance of teaching the sylvari to be good. That might be part of the big picture when it comes to understanding why sylvari don’t serve Mordremoth but some do – environmental influences play a role. It may be more complicated than a simple forgotten ritual.

The Foefire was caused by a sword that may have been gifted by the human gods. That could imply it has divine fire as we saw at the end of season 2. We can guess about what caused the sylvari to be independant from Mordremoth, but I don’t think we will have to once we’ve played the expansion. So far I haven’t seen a strong link between known Orrian/human god artifacts and the sylvari origins so my guess is something else.

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As I pointed out in another thread – I won’t bother going into length again – there are common aspects seen across all dragon minions – including mordrem. The sylvari lack all of these for the most part. Some can be easily argued away, others cannot.

My problem with this argument has always been the implication that there needs to be a strong formula for what constitutes an ED minion and what doesn’t.

Take minions of Zhaitan, Jormag, Kralkatorrik and Primordus as example. Had Zhaitan, Jormag and Kralkatorrik been the only known EDs the rules would state EDs don’t create minions, they corrupt them. We knew all along this wasn’t the case – Primordus was the first ED we came across and it seems to be able to create minions. There are big differences between corrupting an existing creature and creating your own, so that common rule is broken by the two EDs we come across in GW1 (Jormag and Primordus). That sets a precedent for ED lore varying a lot between dragons.

There is a lot of sylvari background to be told and judging from where the story is at, I suspect they will tell us in the expansion. Elder Dragon lore is going to be expanded with sylvari at the front lines. There is an explanation for why the Pale Tree and the sylvari are protected from Mordremoth and how they became that way. Maybe when we get those answers the sylvari will make more sense as ED minions?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But the sylvari don’t function akin to dragon minions. The most critical is magical consumption. Dragon minions – be it risen or mordrem or, likely, others – consume magic simply by proximity (see Field Test and The Concordia Incident). Sylvari don’t.

Is it explicitly stated that all known minions consume magic? I know there is a big emphasis on minions acquiring magic for their masters but I didn’t think magic consumption was a default feature of a minion. The sylvari are clearly magical beings and they seem to be connected to the Dream (the Pale Tree knew of Wynne’s death when it happened, the fact that sylvari experiences return to the Dream as their life’s go on suggests they are connected in some way their whole lives. More than the other races, sylvari are fairly magical.

Shiren.9532:

It might be worth going through the Mawdrey purification locations to see any lore threads that can be drawn between them to give a better idea of why Mawdrey was able to be purified.

Here’s a list:

Mysterious Seed
- Vial of Sacred Glacier Water (Unknown origin, but purified at the top of the Ice Floe Ruins)
- Polarized Ley Line Stone (a stone from the hub touched to the Breachmaker’s drill bit)
- Phantasmal Residue (Unknown origin, exposed to Foefire Ghost energies, which is also of unknown nature)

Cultivated Seed
- Chaos Orb (given by Countess Anise, then infused through Thaumanova with “chaos magic”. . . suspected to be a misnomer of dragon energy)
- Ley Line Dust (unknown exact origin, but can also be infused in Vexa’s Laboratory somehow)
- Mending Waters from Maguuma springs (always known to carry some odd properties)
- Enormous Foxfire Cluster (later infused with energy latent in Aurora’s Remains)

Pet Seed
- Water from the Font of Rhand (Unknown exactly how it has known mysterious properties)
- Mists Stone (From the Mistlock Observatory, clearly having power through being from the Mists)
- Destroyer Stone (“Heart of the Destroyer”, another piece from a dragon minion)
- Captured light from the Forsaken Halls (a dwarven dungeon associated with the Light of Deldrimor, could be this is a fragment of such power?)

Personally I think Mawdrey might be a paralel to the Pale Tree – a seed of Mordrem origins that grows to become “good”.

It’s intriguing to consider, but it took three generations of planting and cultivation before we got a “pet” plantling instead of something else. And a lot of mystical energies, some of which was known to be dragon-related.

The Foefire was caused by a sword that may have been gifted by the human gods. That could imply it has divine fire as we saw at the end of season 2.

The Divine Fire is known to be associated with Ascension, specifically the last key to reaching the interior of Augury Rock while the vision crystal draws the attention of the Five Gods down to witness the fight against the Doppleganger. It is not yet known to be associated with Magdaer or Sohothin, which until recent developments were just copies of the “Fiery Dragon Sword” possessed by father and son of a prominent royal line. (The direct decent of it being through Orrian royal lines being debatable, and highly unknown at this time.)

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

It’s not necessary they look like mordrem, especially if their appearance was influenced, as we now can agree through lore Konig has provided. Function is also debatable, as I would not be surprised to learn the Pale Tree does consume magic and is on a strong confluence of ley line energy. Considering there are four waypoints which are very close together, and we know waypoints are linked to ley lines . . . I consider it plausible.

As for the sylvari not consuming magic, it’s still debatable whether that is an active or innate part of the nature of dragon minions.

My problem with this argument has always been the implication that there needs to be a strong formula for what constitutes an ED minion and what doesn’t.

My biggest problem is it’s treated as a law when it is a theory. A theory which has been challenged through the reveal. The reaction as though a fundamental law of nature was broken is why I began to debate this in the fashion I have – there’s holes in both sides but there has been no absolute fundamental law dragon minions must behave in a certain manner or must possess several qualities.

There’s enough variation between each set of minions, that to try to codify a singular rule of behavior, nature, and powers seems to be problematic. The only rule which is known is this – an Elder Dragon controls these minions and sends them forth in some fashion. It is not necessary:

- For them to be corrupted from something already existing.
- For them to be created out of whole cloth.
- For them to follow a set organization.
- For them to be rational.
- For them to be sapient.
- For them to be intelligent.
- For them to possess immense magical prowess.
- For them to possess immense physical prowess.
- For them to have any immunities.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There were no Soul Batteries in Bloodstone Fen.

… Yes, there were. – you can clearly see 3 of them floating above the bloodstone.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it wasn’t a release in proportion to the strength of the death triggering the effect. Which means there is a variable amount of entropy in the process. Which leads me to point out it is still, thusly, taking in energy even if it is to release a portion of it out again.

The strength of the magic was proportionate to the proximity to the bloodstone… Stronger magic, closer to the bloodstone. If the bloodstone was taking in magic, then we shouldn’t have been healed, but hindered if anything.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s only because Orr as a region didn’t exist in GW1, due to it being . . . mostly underwater. It seemed pretty clear it was close enough to have some malign influence creating undead. Hinting at Zhaitan, so it seemed.

Also, if it was a settlement of Orr than it’s Orrian territory. Which means it’s effectively in Orr.

I am talking geography, not political borders. Orr is the peninsula. It was, geographically, part of the Tarnished Coast. Not Orr, like you claimed.

And there’s no way they were hinting at Zhaitan back in Prophecies, when the thought of Elder Dragons (very clearly given the number of retcons) did not exist in their heads.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And Eir’s been wrong before, not to mention other characters being mistaken on factual basis in the past.

But you have no basis for the likelihood that this one thing, in all of the things Eir mentions on the subject, is wrong. She was 100% accurate on the story of Jora and Svanir, and Jeff Grubb even referenced her mention of Drakkar drawing power from the Sons after their founding to aid Jormag rise.

So why, when the conversation is referenced by a dev, would this be wrong? What support do you have to claim otherwise?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it didn’t catch fire until the mursaat stepped in and helped push back the charr themselves, before vanishing with Saul and leaving Dorian in charge. In short, the mursaat created the White Mantle we see while Saul created the name and the basis of them.

I think the BMP and the fact that the Test of the Chosen (which is administered by knights who’s likely to be promoted to Justiciar) existed for at least 3 years prior to the Searing proves you wrong.

But this is irrelevant in the end.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ah. But we don’t know he didn’t. We know he was corrupted by the power leaking out of the frozen lake, and we know for some indeterminate amount of time he was ravaging homesteads before he was slain by Jora. We don’t know what happened before our characters came into the picture.

Edge of Destiny, page 221: “Svanir wandered the wastes in madness, attacking any who came near.”

Doesn’t sound like the description of someone who’d establish his own cult.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Great! And the other two?

No canonical mention. Which was my point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We also don’t have any mention of there not being energy there. Though there is whatever magic was used to make the Effigies and whatever power permits the ghosts to be as potent as they are in the return trip.

Lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. It’s on you to prove that there was, thus being usable as your argument that “destroyers didn’t go there despite magical energies there,” more than it is on me to prove that there wasn’t.

In GW2, we learned that effigies are made by the souls of a sacrifice. There’s nothing to suggest that the spirits of the dead’s strength is altered by an external force.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing there was far better targets than the ones which were chosen, and easier to breach and seize. If consumption is a key drive of the Elder Dragons – why is it these were overlooked when it is clear Mordremoth doesn’t need to be made aware of strong magical sources . . . it just is.

I fail to see how seizing the closest magical locations near their breaching points and/or asura gates is any harder than traveling dozens if not hundreds of miles to seize and control other locales.

And on that last part: do remember that we weren’t yet dealing with an Elder Dragon – just its minions. And I’m not so sure that Mordremoth “just is” aware, keep in mind that the tendrils ran along the ley lines, which were redirected by Scarlet – so it was made aware… then it got close to other magical objects/locations, and attacked (near) them too. Zhaitan didn’t collect artifacts in the temple of Abaddon for hundreds of years, either, despite proximity.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I stand corrected on Kisu, but there are still sources which could have been taken in Cantha not far from where the Destroyers would have been from spotting where the fissure entrance was. Similarly, Elona, but there’s not as many on Istan as there were in Kaineng.

Presuming that such is canon. Which there is nothing to suggest such. We even had Linsey Murdock state that the quests going from Nightfall to Prophecies/Factions isn’t canon lore – as it would involve time travel of going back in time 3 years – but a mechanical facilitation to allow Nightfall-made players access to the other games.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You asked me to point it out. Don’t get snarky because I did. Also, the maps may not change but spawns would “phase” and it was possible to do that as of Nightfall. If they chose not to do it in EOTN for this, it might be because . . . those Destroyers were meant to be there.

The thing is you actually didn’t prove that the destroyer hive was there before the foundry was. Both are there before the actual mission, and both are there after the actual mission.

So where did you “point it out” that one came before the other?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well . . . sylvari, for one.

Which is the very subject of debate and thus not a proper piece of evidence or support.

“Sylvari are different because the sylvari are different” is not that very convincing of an argument. That’s like looking at a question in a fantasy setting and shouting that the answer is “BECAUSE MAGIC!”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The core of their lore has more parts to it than that. The cycle of awakening is part of it, the fact no cycle has succeeded in preventing wholesale destruction of life on Tyria is part of it, and the notable fact we did manage to destroy what was thought to be indestructible.

I disagree, but it’s semantics at this point. The whole cycle of awakening, the destruction of Tyria, and everything else about their waking/sleeping/eating habits is all tied to the fact they consume magic and balance it for the world.

That last part hardly seems a “core point” in their lore, to me, though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

First and simply – because there are and it was already stated to be. So there are the differences already.

But if you insist . . . you already gave one potential answer – due to Ronan’s influence, the sylvari are not like mordrem except in lineage being traced back to Mordremoth. Considering we aren’t sure what that “influence” consisted of or what was done to the seed prior to it being planted, there’s a lot of what we don’t know going on.

Though, this does bring the snag of Malyck . . . again . . . to the forefront. If he is from another tree, why does that tree produce sylvari which also have a humanoid form and aren’t like mordrem? Was the other tree influenced in the same fashion by a human, and if so how did that come to happen? How many more other trees exist and are they all producing sylvari or are some producing mordrem?

Third, we do not know if sylvari or the pale tree consume magic passively to the extent the Risen did during the mission you mentioned before. Considering it’s unclear if the Destroyers of a past age did or did not seek out magic instinctively to consume it . . . or instead instinctively struck out at magic which was capable of harming them . . . there is much doubt here.

Too much doubt to say with certainty a dragon minion needs to actively be consuming magic at the same rate at all times.

Ronan’s influence/the reason Malyck is so similar to sylvari only hold an answer to their mentality – like the Forgotten ritual for Glint. It does not answer other questions, such as appearance (which, to me, you did not bring up sample support for countering with your “well Eyes and Mouths and Tequatl differ from standard mobs!” argument).

The prospect that sylvari simply consume “less” magic is an interesting one, but it brings up the question of why the Elder Dragons don’t consume magic slower to prolong their waking cycles. It is also something that would not go unnoticed when near magical artifacts unless it is so insignificant amount of magical consumption that they may as well not be consuming magic at all – which, again, begs the question of why don’t the Elder Dragons regulate this to avoid being forced into hibernation.

Shiren.9532:

-snip on Mawdrey-

“Grown under influence of a hero” would include what’s fed to Mawdrey.

As shown with Glint’s full story – taken from both Arah explorable and Edge of Destiny (as well as the little recap by Kas and Jory in Hidden Arcana), the Forgotten ritual merely gave free will. Thus, it was still possible for Glint to serve Kralkatorrik – and when adding it all up, it seems she did for a time.

So even with the Forgotten ritual, it would be possible for a sylvari to still serve Mordremoth – arguably – so the concept of needing proper nurture would still be around.

Shiren.9532:

I’m saying that given all evidence – including both Glint and Mawdrey – that purifying dragon minions don’t make them so different as sylvari are. Sylvari look nothing like mordrem, they function nothing like mordrem. Mawdrey does on all accounts – looks, function, everything that Glint remains sharing with her old self, Mawdrey shares with the modern mordrem.

And that’s been half of my point – originally.

Glint still functions like a dragon champion – she consumes magic; she remained crystalline; she retained her powers – it’s just that she had a mind of her own.

Mawdrey also still looks and functions like a dragon minion – it consumes magic, remains very mordrem-like (all three generations), etc.

But sylvari don’t function like dragon minions. They differ even from Glint and Mawdrey.

Shiren.9532:

My problem with this argument has always been the implication that there needs to be a strong formula for what constitutes an ED minion and what doesn’t.

Take minions of Zhaitan, Jormag, Kralkatorrik and Primordus as example. Had Zhaitan, Jormag and Kralkatorrik been the only known EDs the rules would state EDs don’t create minions, they corrupt them.

First off, Kralkatorrik creates minions too (The Shatterer; by description, the crystal guardian-thing from Ghosts of Ascalon).

Second off, no, nothing says there needs to be. But we see it anyways. And it encompasses mordrem too.

Third, there are differences between the Elder Dragons and their minions. But there are also similarities. Things like “how/what they choose to corrupt” is among the differences, not the similarities. What they can corrupt, however, is a shared similarity – we know, for example, that Primordus can corrupt the living, that Jormag can corrupt the dead, that Zhaitan can corrupt the living and plants. But they don’t choose to – where the difference lies.

Shiren.9532:

Maybe when we get those answers the sylvari will make more sense as ED minions?

Maybe.

Shiren.9532:

Is it explicitly stated that all known minions consume magic?

Not in one place, no, but we see dragon minions drawn to places of magic more often than not. We know that mordrem do; we know that risen do; we have seen destroyers gather near close-by magical locations; we’ve seen icebrood collecting artifacts for Jormag. The only one we’re lacking such on, aside from the know-nothing-about DSD, is Kralkatorrik. But that’s also group of dragon minions we have the least knowledge of out of the four.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Chaos Orb (given by Countess Anise, then infused through Thaumanova with “chaos magic”. . . suspected to be a misnomer of dragon energy)

Correction: The Inquest added dragon energy to chaos magic, thinking the two to be the same. That’s what caused the explosion – mixing chaos and dragon energies without knowing. Explained by Ellen Kiel if you talked to her during Fractured! after doing the fractal – and again later during A Study in Scarlet

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Divine Fire is known to be associated with Ascension, specifically the last key to reaching the interior of Augury Rock while the vision crystal draws the attention of the Five Gods down to witness the fight against the Doppleganger. It is not yet known to be associated with Magdaer or Sohothin, which until recent developments were just copies of the “Fiery Dragon Sword” possessed by father and son of a prominent royal line. (The direct decent of it being through Orrian royal lines being debatable, and highly unknown at this time.)

Magdaer and Sohothin are actually the originals – the rest were the copies. But in Episode 8, it is stated that Divine Fire was a gift of the gods to both Forgotten and humans. It is also shown to be highly effective against dragon minions – or at least mordrem – while Foefire ghosts are immune to (Kralkatorrik’s) dragon corruption, and ghostfire which comes from said ghosts can burn through anything (relates to Ogden’s warnings of divine fire being deadly) but burns exceptionally fast through risen. Magdaer and Sohothin were also gifts from the gods.

Nothing solid, but the parallels are undeniable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s not necessary they look like mordrem, especially if their appearance was influenced, as we now can agree through lore Konig has provided.

You’ll have to forgive me, but what lore that I’ve provided shows this, exactly?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s not necessary they look like mordrem, especially if their appearance was influenced, as we now can agree through lore Konig has provided.

You’ll have to forgive me, but what lore that I’ve provided shows this, exactly?

You provided the lore about the sylvari resembling humans due to Ronan’s influence.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Which was debunked – in a way – back in 2009. It was stated that the sylvari’s humanoid appearance is due to the Pale Tree shaping them to be roughly humanoid due to the influence from Ronan. Got nothing to do with corpses.

I mean, unless you didn’t say that.