Guild Wars 2

I read that Human Gods won’t back…
I believed that They could back, but really??? They will stay in the "Unknown "?

That would be great if Gods could come back, I want see Kormir, my favorite goddess..

The Six Gods left the world of Tyria because of the damage they do when they directly involve themselves. A civil war between them turned an entire sea into a desert, and a verdant coastline into a poisonous wasteland.

They also want humanity to stand on their own, and the best means to do that is non-interference.

It would be nice to see plots related to them again – particularly Menzies and Dhuum need to be handled – but I wouldn’t expect them to just up and return to Tyria. Seeking them out on the other hand…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Six Gods left the world of Tyria because of the damage they do when they directly involve themselves. A civil war between them turned an entire sea into a desert, and a verdant coastline into a poisonous wasteland.

They also want humanity to stand on their own, and the best means to do that is non-interference.

It would be nice to see plots related to them again – particularly Menzies and Dhuum need to be handled – but I wouldn’t expect them to just up and return to Tyria. Seeking them out on the other hand…

I would love to see them build on Menzies and Dhuum in the absence on of the Six.

im more interested in our PC ascending and becoming a god itself since every player see the world as its own story having 1 player the PC becoming god in the narrative wont break lore

Except it rather would because you’d have to be “no longer a god” when in the open world, and all future content – presuming such wouldn’t be the finale of GW2 – would be trivial or suffer from the Dragonball Z complex of having to up the ante to previously shown-to-be-insane levels.

In other words, there is no difference between player character becoming a god in GW1 as there is in GW2.

And if Anet ever hopes to have another sequel, having a nameless, genderless, raceless god would just be silly.

The human gods are beings comprised of or supremely powerful in magic, like an army of ley-line anomalies. from what i understand, the gods initially left Tyria because their presence was causing problems for the races, like the fight between Dhuum and Grenth or Abaddon’s meddling. as of the current events, we know that the elder dragons consume and corrupt magic, we also don’t know exactly how to kill them. Zhaitan was shot down by “anti-elder dragon cannons” and we don’t know what the cannons where firing as its never explained. perhaps magic the dragon couldn’t eat non-magical ammo but either way we don’t know. Mordremoth isn’t actually killed, just turned brain dead so there is a chance that it might recover in the future. and the other dragons we don’t know yet. but its safe to say that beings of magic want to stay far away from things that consume magic.

as for Dhuum and Manzies, those will most likely take place in they’re own dimensions, Underworld and Fissure of Woe.

We actually do know what the cannons were firing. It was basically a combination of Gorr’s research (used in the Whispers PS if you recruit him), the cannon testing at Tequatl (particularly the laser), and Kudu’s research from Crucible of Eternity.

There was small dialogue about it so it’s hard to catch and I’m not sure the wiki has those lines up tbh (or if they even still exist with all the PS dialogue redoing they did).

As for gods being beings of magic and thus want to stay away from Elder Dragons that consume magic… I’m not so sure. Gods are beings of magic, yes, but they are beings of divine magic. And as seen at the end of Season 2… divine fire is very useful in fighting mordrem. Further, Forgotten magic – the magic of the Six Gods’ most faithful followers – cannot be consumed by Elder Dragons (see Arah Forgotten path and Exalted), and the Foefire which originates from the Gods’ time on Tyria also seems to be anti-ED (the Foefire ghosts were not corrupted by Kralkatorrik and its Dragonbrand; ghostfire from the Foefire ghosts burn through risen and sylvari faster than anything else).

It very well may be that the Six Gods could singlehandedly slam the Elder Dragons down with ease if their magic truly is immune to the Elder Dragons – and if the purification the Forgotten had originates from them, it would even mean that the Six Gods could turn the Elder Dragons’ minions against them.

Avatar Rage.4369:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Six Gods left the world of Tyria because of the damage they do when they directly involve themselves. A civil war between them turned an entire sea into a desert, and a verdant coastline into a poisonous wasteland.

They also want humanity to stand on their own, and the best means to do that is non-interference.

It would be nice to see plots related to them again – particularly Menzies and Dhuum need to be handled – but I wouldn’t expect them to just up and return to Tyria. Seeking them out on the other hand…

I would love to see them build on Menzies and Dhuum in the absence on of the Six.

For me, I definitely want to see more on Dhuum. Out of the new, Abaddon was the oldest of the six and I think Dhuum was also a part of that original pantheon. But recently I’ve been wondering what Abaddon knew of the Elder Dragons and without him around and no sign of Komir to ask her instead, Dhuum would be the next best individual to ask as I’d almost think that the original Pantheon were present alongside the Elder Dragons if not confronting them from time to time. They could have very well been just beasts to the likes of Abaddon, Dhuum, etc that roamed rampant while the original pantheon simply observed.

Abaddon wasn’t the oldest of the Six, he was even once a mortal (having replaced a god like Kormir and Grenth did), and while Dhuum was part of the pantheon we don’t know if he was an original god or just ascended into godhood like Abaddon, Grenth, or Kormir did (same can be said for all of the Six, technically, but only Dwayna and Melandru are lacking hints that they were original gods iirc).

And the Six Gods never confronted the Elder Dragons or were around when the Elder Dragons were last awake – the Six arrived on Tyria well after the Elder Dragons went to sleep according to Arah explorable lore. Or at the very least, they arrived near the end of the last Dragonrise, so they were not awake for very long if they still were (and even then, Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar were the first on the world and thus would know the most).

I feel it is important to note that Arah’s EXP does not address the difference(s) between Komir and Abaddon or Grenth and Dhuum. There’s no data saying Abaddon “arrived”, it is only safely assumed thanks in part to shoddy paraphrasing.

Arah explorable doesn’t talk about when any individual god arrived, but it does mention that Glint’s individuality from Kralkatorrik was pre-Six Gods on Tyria, and that the Six Gods did not know they were pulling magic from Zhaitan when they strengthened the Bloodstone.

The arrival of gods comes from the Orrian History Scrolls in Malchor’s Leap, which only specifies Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru (in that order of arrival).

It also stats Lyssa’s origins are lost, which is rather suspect and sounds similar to the cover up of Abaddon’s existence, hinting that Lyssa may have had a precursor the knowledge of which was wiped out (and done better than knowledge of Abaddon).

The Return of Human Gods could be like the Greek “Deus ex machina”
when will be end of dragons

I miss Gods, because they could help us when a problem comes.
They could be with us, not in “unknown”.

But They did what They thought is better for Tyria.

There will be no return of the gods…their magic and artifacts, however, may be coming into the picture this season.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It very well may be that the Six Gods could singlehandedly slam the Elder Dragons down with ease if their magic truly is immune to the Elder Dragons – and if the purification the Forgotten had originates from them, it would even mean that the Six Gods could turn the Elder Dragons’ minions against them.

On the other other hand, Zhaitan did seem to be able to corrupt the magic of the statues and the cathedrals pretty easily, although Grenth’s proved somewhat more resistant than the others according to the PS.

Mind you, they could have been enchanted by mortals, but it could be an indication that while the Forgotten and possibly the gods can make things immune to dragon corruption, the gods themselves may not be safe from the dragons.

That said, it would be nice to see the gods and the animal spirits getting some more of the spotlight.

The only thing I want to know is what they exactly are. We know they aren’t really gods, just powerful beings. But what are they exactly?

What is a god?

In every polytheistic belief, “long lived powerful beings capable of creating and reshaping life and landscapes that live in an afterlife world” is the very core definition of what a god is, and the Six Gods fit that definition exactly.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What is a god?

In every polytheistic belief, “long lived powerful beings capable of creating and reshaping life and landscapes that live in an afterlife world” is the very core definition of what a god is, and the Six Gods fit that definition exactly.

To add to this, the gods have this divine spark or however you want to call it which can apparently be transferred from one individual to the next (as happened when Kormir took over the mantle from Abaddon).

Though in light of GW2 one might wonder whether that spark is nothing more than a large concentration of magic.

The definition of “god” is a critical question.

A lot of players look at the term from a monotheistic lens: omniscient, omnipotent, and a list of other omnis. However, to our knowledge, no Tyrian belief system has a being who is believed to have those qualities. The closest might be Kodan, or an Elder Dragon from the point of view of its minions.

Polytheistic gods are generally neither all-powerful nor all-knowing – there may be a supreme god that is, but generally, the gods in a polytheistic system can be tricked and defeated (by each other and other immortals if not by mortals). The polytheistic definition is generally that a god is a being who has dominion over a particular aspect of life, who can be propitiated in the hope that the god will support the supplicant’s efforts in that area.

Asura and charr, in declaring that the Six and their like “are not gods”, seem to essentially be using a definition that states that a god is a being who should be worshipped. Neither asura nor charr believe the Six and their ilk should be worshipped, and hence, the Six are not gods in their eyes. Both, however, acknowledge that the gods do (or did) have influence over aspects of life, they just don’t believe they should be worshipped and hence they don’t consider them to be gods. A human might say that it’s up to an individual to decide whether to worship or not, but the gods are what they are.

The best explanation, however, might be the norn attitude: the gods are spirits that embody abstract concepts rather than animals. So Dwayna is Life, Balthazar is War, Melandru is Nature, Grenth is Death, Lyssa is Art, and Kormir is Knowledge (note: not all of these attributions are official, some are my best guesses). It’s worth noting, however, that pretty much any definition that encompasses the Six and other gods would probably also apply to the Elder Dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What is a god?

In every polytheistic belief, “long lived powerful beings capable of creating and reshaping life and landscapes that live in an afterlife world” is the very core definition of what a god is, and the Six Gods fit that definition exactly.

Well I guess it depends on what someone percieves as a god.
For me personally, gods would be: Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and creator of all creation. Eternal entities of pure perfection. I don’t think the six gods fit that description.

I’m in no way as versed in the lore as any of you, nor do I know much about theology, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, but as Drax said I think the norn got the right idea. The six gods being spirits that embody a specific concept.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Well I guess it depends on what someone percieves as a god.
For me personally, gods would be: Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and creator of all creation. Eternal entities of pure perfection. I don’t think the six gods fit that description.

Yeah, that’s pretty much part of the issue. Those traits are pretty much all traits of monotheistic systems (where there is one supreme deity who has all those traits, such as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic group), and Koda is the only religion which even might be monotheistic in that sense.

The humans of Tyria have never had a monotheistic system, and they’re aware that their gods have limits and imperfections. So the term ‘god’, in the Krytan language, was never meant to include the traits you list. Instead, it’s used in the sense of the Greek or Norse gods: more powerful than humans, and generally carrying a responsibility to govern some aspect of life, but still very much fallible.

Basically, to a Tyrian, the Six are gods, because the term ‘god’ (in the human language) was coined to describe the Six in the first place. In this context, it doesn’t really make a lot of sense to ask the question “if they’re not gods, what are they?”. The question is more “what is the nature of the beings that are called gods in the Krytan language?”

Since the term was coined to describe them in the first place, it doesn’t make sense to say they’re not gods because we find out they’re not as powerful or important as we thought. It just means we have a better idea of what a god is (in the context of Guild Wars 2). It would be like saying that cats should no longer be called cats because you find out that they don’t actually have nine lives and sometimes, when they don’t have time to twist around, they do actually land on their backs. Just because they don’t have those qualities doesn’t mean they’re no longer cats!

However, I think some of the writers haven’t thought this through to this detail, and are thinking of ‘god’ as having a definition closer to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic one rather than the Greek or Norse one. So you get things like asura and charr saying “they are not gods” when what they should be saying is “we see no reason to worship them”.

(As an aside, it’s worth noting that ‘spirits of abstract concepts’ are pretty much exactly what the gods are in some other fantasy settings. Most of the gods of the Warhammer and WH40K universe are exactly that, in fact – they’ve either formed directly out of the Warp as the embodiment of an abstract concept, or they’re a former mortal that has absorbed a lot of Warp energy and has become an embodiment of an abstract concept as a result, similar to the ascension of Kormir.)

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Well I guess it depends on what someone percieves as a god.
For me personally, gods would be: Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and creator of all creation. Eternal entities of pure perfection. I don’t think the six gods fit that description.

That’s less of what “gods” are and more of what “God” is. And as Drax said, is the crux of the issue.

To put it simply, it is physically impossible to have two gods that are all powerful, all knowing, all present, and the creator of all creation. So any polytheistic religion cannot have that definition for what a god is.

Thank God and gods for words with multiple definitions, eh?

It’s fine for a personal belief in the real world to say “Yeah, there’s only one God because a god must be the creator of all things” and the like. But in a fictional universe, the term of what makes a “god” is ultimately defined by the writer(s), and there are beliefs in the world which would say “you’re too strict on what defines a god”.

A quick google search comes up with:

God
?äd/
noun
noun: God; noun: god; plural noun: gods; plural noun: the gods

1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh;
(God) the Father, (God) the Son, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, the Holy Trinity;
the Great Spirit, Gitchi Manitou;
humorousthe Man Upstairs
“a gift from God”
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
“a moon god”
synonyms: deity, goddess, divine being, celestial being, divinity, immortal, avatar
“sacrifices to appease the gods”

In the setting of Guild Wars, “god” – except, potentially, Koda – always falls under the second definition. And when you look at Grenth, Dwayna, Balthazar, Kormir, Lyssa, Melandru, Zintl, Amyali, Mellagan, Koda, and the Great Dwarf – they all fit that definition. Proving, of course, that they are actual beings with a consciousness.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

as Drax said I think the norn got the right idea. The six gods being spirits that embody a specific concept.

Alternatively, humans may think of the Spirits of the Wild as gods (or demigods) – there is at least one human priest who believes the Spirits of the Wild are servants of Melandru.

Point being is that the norn viewing the Six as “Spirits of Action”, from the description I recall given by Jeff Grubb, is more of a cultural compromise – a method to understand other cultures by relating the said other cultures to their own.

To add, polytheistic cultures usually accepted other cultures polytheistic gods as also being gods. They just weren’t “their own” gods. So battles were seen as sign of who’s god(s) were more powerful or at the very least, who was favored by their god(s).

Oh, yes. There are some ancient and neighbouring religions, in fact, where the names of the demons of one religion are recognisably derived (after a couple of thousand years of linguistic drift) from the angels of the other… and vice versa.

I really would like to see the return of the gods in some form or another as well, they are interesting and having them as these sort of nebulous beings that watch but do nothing is boring. Especially after Kormir ascending to godhood in GW1. I think a lot of people really want a return to the plots and stories from the first game because they were so good, and so far the stories in GW2 are definitely not as good. I believe we MAY see some stuff relating to them with the current LS plotline, so here’s hoping.

Hue hue. What do you say now?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What is a god?

In every polytheistic belief, “long lived powerful beings capable of creating and reshaping life and landscapes that live in an afterlife world” is the very core definition of what a god is, and the Six Gods fit that definition exactly.

Well I guess it depends on what someone percieves as a god.
For me personally, gods would be: Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and creator of all creation. Eternal entities of pure perfection. I don’t think the six gods fit that description.

I’m in no way as versed in the lore as any of you, nor do I know much about theology, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, but as Drax said I think the norn got the right idea. The six gods being spirits that embody a specific concept.

Theyre very near it. Balthazar even weakened, is still absurdly omniscient. He’s already appears knowing about Lazarus, about the white mantle, that the commander killed 2 dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s fine for a personal belief in the real world to say “Yeah, there’s only one God because a god must be the creator of all things” and the like. But in a fictional universe, the term of what makes a “god” is ultimately defined by the writer(s), and there are beliefs in the world which would say “you’re too strict on what defines a god”.

And in the matter of story building it is very complicated to put an omnipotent being in the middle, if he is omnipotent has no story to happen, he only does what he wants and end. Snap his fingers and him destroy all the world. The Saint Seya series is an example of overcomplication when making stories with beings who were supposed to be omnipotent, its turns into an Deus ex-machine party.

ugrakarma.9416:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s fine for a personal belief in the real world to say “Yeah, there’s only one God because a god must be the creator of all things” and the like. But in a fictional universe, the term of what makes a “god” is ultimately defined by the writer(s), and there are beliefs in the world which would say “you’re too strict on what defines a god”.

And in the matter of story building it is very complicated to put an omnipotent being in the middle, if he is omnipotent has no story to happen, he only does what he wants and end. Snap his fingers and him destroy all the world. The Saint Seya series is an example of overcomplication when making stories with beings who were supposed to be omnipotent, its turns into an Deus ex-machine party.

Except that the gods in that series are not omnipotent. That’s why they can be defeated by lowly bronze knights. Athena isn’t neither was Hades. They get reborn but they are not omnipotent.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except it rather would because you’d have to be “no longer a god” when in the open world, and all future content – presuming such wouldn’t be the finale of GW2 – would be trivial or suffer from the Dragonball Z complex of having to up the ante to previously shown-to-be-insane levels.

In other words, there is no difference between player character becoming a god in GW1 as there is in GW2.

And if Anet ever hopes to have another sequel, having a nameless, genderless, raceless god would just be silly.

I guess you could theoretically implement it like the Mark of Cain in Supernatural (implicit spoilers) — rather than being a vessel for divine power, you’re the bearer of a mark, curse, or artifact that keeps that unbound power walled away in another realm where it can’t do harm to Tyria. While it most like has negative side effects (say, constantly fighting the influence of that power) in the story, it could also make you somewhat more powerful than an ordinary person (cue new Mastery traitline like Ancient Magics). That power could be justified either as a deliberate mechanism to help safeguard the seal, or as a result of leakage of that power corrupting you slightly. Either way, it makes you a bad kitten, not a god. And if the seal were a transferrable burden, then the nameless protagonist issue is less of a problem in a hypothetical GW3.

draxynnic.3719:

Oh, yes. There are some ancient and neighbouring religions, in fact, where the names of the demons of one religion are recognisably derived (after a couple of thousand years of linguistic drift) from the angels of the other… and vice versa.

One of them is a race in GW2…