(edited by Alexander.4827)
The Six Gods: Borrowed Power From Dragons
1 2
I don’t know who borrowed the power from who. But they surely have a very similar theme.
I’m glad to see that someone linked Dwayna with Zhaitan. I’ve always seen the dragons as a corrupted and uncontrolled form of the gods.
By the way, you forgot kralkatorrik and lyssa
The glory of my ancestors shall be restored.
you’re like the billionth person that tries to tie the elder dragons to the human gods and have to start making flimsy assumptions and broad changes to your own line of thought just to fit.
also you forgot lyssa, who’s the current keeper of the title “god of water”.
also (x2) the human gods were gods before they even got in tyria, and the dragons were around since before the gods showed up.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Kormir didn’t really seem to inherit the water thing from Abaddon’s secretive DSD powers.
Lyssa does match up decently well with Kralkatorrik, however.
That said, this proposal seems to be jumping to some pretty big conclusions.
Yes, I agree. I also felt I was making big leaps and tried to acknowledge that within my post. It’s a wild theory but one I felt would be fun to discuss.
- “Kormir didn’t really seem to inherit the water thing from Abaddon’s secretive DSD powers.”
-Azujax
- “also you forgot lyssa, who’s the current keeper of the title “god of water”.”
-BrunoBRS
That is true. She is currently considered having domain over water however my theory was based off how the gods originally got their power. In that scenerio it doesn’t matter how the power was later distributed.
However that actually does mean that I should have also listed Dhuum instead of Grenth. I will correct that.
- " I’ve always seen the dragons as a corrupted and uncontrolled form of the gods."
-Ludovicus
I am actually proposing that the gods are a controlled form of the dragon’s power. I do truly believe the elder dragons were here long before the human gods were.
(edited by Moderator)
so what you’re saying is that they sapped that power, then they traded it around like it was some card game?
and my other point stands. the human gods first walked into tyria after the dragons had been put to sleep, and when they got here, they were already gods.
so i’m sorry to say, but your theory is moot.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Where is it stated that the human gods were considered gods when they brought the humans to Tyria or even what that even means to begin with?
And yes they did trade power around. Grenth took it from Dhuum, then Kormir took Abbadon’s remaining power. Menzies battled Balthazar for power and Balthazar first emerged in Tyria holding his own father’s head which has it’s own implications.
While I don’t personally entirely agree with the theory, I’ma play devil’s advocate here.
so what you’re saying is that they sapped that power, then they traded it around like it was some card game?
This is sort of what the Asura did. Who knows how much of Primordus’ power was used to construct/float Rata Sum?
and my other point stands. the human gods first walked into tyria after the dragons had been put to sleep, and when they got here, they were already gods.
That’s just what the Humans say. And ArenaNet has, on more than one occasion, shown that Tyrian history is not immune to cultural biases changing how the story is told.
^ i’ll tell you how much of primordus’ power was used on rata sum:
none.
you know why? because the moment primordus awoke, if rata sum was fueled by him, the city would’ve crumbled and broken into pieces.
remember that magic in this game is like gasoline. you can’t obtain it and just keep it. you’re constantly spending it, and if the source ends, the magic stops working. that’s why once the destroyers started appearing on the central transfer chamber, the asuras designed a new asura gate system that did NOT need that power from primordus.
and one more thing: humans came to tyria from south of cantha. the elder dragons are in tyria. the humans, and their gods, sailed from cantha and elona towards tyria, and settled there. that piece of lore matches not only human lore, but charr lore too, so unless they’re both lying, the gods were gods before the dragons were even a thing.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
^ i’ll tell you how much of primordus’ power was used on rata sum:
none.
you know why? because the moment primordus awoke, if rata sum was fueled by him, the city would’ve crumbled and broken into pieces.
remember that magic in this game is like gasoline. you can’t obtain it and just keep it. you’re constantly spending it, and if the source ends, the magic stops working. that’s why once the destroyers started appearing on the central transfer chamber, the asuras designed a new asura gate system that did NOT need that power from primordus.
Oh, my bad. I’m not quite up to snuff on GW1 lore as I’d like to be.
and one more thing: humans came to tyria from south of cantha. the elder dragons are in tyria. the humans, and their gods, sailed from cantha and elona towards tyria, and settled there. that piece of lore matches not only human lore, but charr lore too, so unless they’re both lying, the gods were gods before the dragons were even a thing.
That’s a pretty strong counterpoint, although I would say that this doesn’t completely rule out the possibility of harnessing of some sleepy dragon power to become as great as gods when they arrived. Before arriving in Tyria, they could have just been a bunch of pretty important/powerful dudes.
^ i’ll tell you how much of primordus’ power was used on rata sum:
none.
you know why? because the moment primordus awoke, if rata sum was fueled by him, the city would’ve crumbled and broken into pieces.
remember that magic in this game is like gasoline. you can’t obtain it and just keep it. you’re constantly spending it, and if the source ends, the magic stops working. that’s why once the destroyers started appearing on the central transfer chamber, the asuras designed a new asura gate system that did NOT need that power from primordus.
Oh, my bad. I’m not quite up to snuff on GW1 lore as I’d like to be.
and one more thing: humans came to tyria from south of cantha. the elder dragons are in tyria. the humans, and their gods, sailed from cantha and elona towards tyria, and settled there. that piece of lore matches not only human lore, but charr lore too, so unless they’re both lying, the gods were gods before the dragons were even a thing.
That’s a pretty strong counterpoint, although I would say that this doesn’t completely rule out the possibility of harnessing of some sleepy dragon power to become as great as gods when they arrived. Before arriving in Tyria, they could have just been a bunch of pretty important/powerful dudes.
“pretty important/powerful dudes” that come from another realm and single handedly brought the entire human race from another planet, into tyria. “pretty important/powerful dudes” that come from the mists and have the power to create entire dimensions to call theirs.
the six are worshipped in cantha and elona as well, they didn’t become gods after reaching tyria.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
- _"remember that magic in this game is like gasoline. you can’t obtain it and just keep it. you’re constantly spending it, and if the source ends, the magic stops working. that’s why once the destroyers started appearing on the central transfer chamber, the asuras designed a new asura gate system that did NOT need that power from primordus."
That is my point. The Asura harnessed Primordius power until he awoke and then they couldn’t use it. That is one of my connections. The god’s influence and power waned when the dragons awoke. Also, the Asura built their civilization on top of a new existing one. We don’t know what sources they are harnessing.
- “and one more thing: humans came to tyria from south of cantha. the elder dragons are in tyria. the humans, and their gods, sailed from cantha and elona towards tyria, and settled there. that piece of lore matches not only human lore, but charr lore too, so unless they’re both lying, the gods were gods before the dragons were even a thing.”
That is a big leap to make. The Charr as a culture aren’t one of the oldest to exist. Look to the Dwarves and Jotun who both reference a time when the human gods weren’t even active on Tyria and when they survived the dragons awaking last time there was no hint of the human gods being active.
If the human gods were so powerful why did they need to sail?
- ““pretty important/powerful dudes” that come from another realm and single handedly brought the entire human race from another planet, into tyria. “pretty important/powerful dudes” that come from the mists and have the power to create entire dimensions to call theirs.”
The extent of their powers is not known, but it is known they are not omniscient, and by their own very nature as a pantheon each is not omnipotent. Also please reference where they created the realms and if they were powerful enough to create these realms why they have such a hard time keeping them. So hard of a time that they have to employ a group of humans to help them battle within it.
The method they brought humans to the world is not known.
The size of the human race when they brought humans to the world is unknown.
- _"the six are worshipped in cantha and elona as well, they didn’t become gods after reaching tyria."
That’s a big leap to make. The gods were active on Tyria before they even brough the gods and the humans were clearly no more sophisticated than the Grawl as stated by the Jotun when they first arrived. Once again the extent of their powers is not known, but it is known they are not omniscient, and by their own very nature as a pantheon each is not omnipotent.
The Grawl can be manipulated into believing an Asura in a skull shaped mountain is a true god. Of course if the gods were interacting with humans since before they even reached Cantha and their goal was to be worshipped they are going to be worshipped from Cantha to wherever else they spread to.
We know the human gods aren’t traditional all powerful gods but rather extremely powerful beings who the humans consider gods.
(edited by Alexander.4827)
the only person making big leaps to fit the thesis is you.
it’s well stated in lore, throughout multiple races, that the humans and their gods first reached Tyria by sailing, and that if you match the humans’ arrival in tyria with the last sighting of the elder dragons, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of years separating the events. first they were in Cantha, then Elona, and only then Tyria, where the 3 kingdoms were initially colonies of these foreign places.
what you’re trying to deny is the same as denying that europeans came to america, despite both european history and native american history saying that yes, europeans came to america. they were in europe (cantha), and sailed to america (tyria). the difference is that there were no humans, god or not, in tyria until that moment. that’s not arguable, that’s a fact.
whichever way the gods obtained their power, it was completely and utterly unrelated to the elder dragons. the power of the gods exists even when they are beyond the elder dragons’ reach (read: in cantha or elona), they are born with that power (see grenth, a half god who ascended to godhood after defeating the previous god of death, dhuum), and their power hasn’t “waded”. they simply left. and they left during nightfall (which, BTW, has a human become a god without having to sap any dragon magic), years before the first sign of elder dragon activity (destroyers).
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
- “it’s well stated in lore, throughout multiple races, that the humans and their gods first reached Tyria by sailing, and that if you match the humans’ arrival in tyria with the last sighting of the elder dragons, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of years separating the events.”
Exactly, there is a clear timeline. the elder dragons were around long before the gods.
“Ancient jotun stelae indicate that throughout prehistory, the elder dragons have gone through cycles of awakening, destruction, and hibernation, each time ending an era of life in Tyria and bringing forth a new one. As contact with other continents has been severed, it is not known whether or not the elder dragons are unique to the continent of Tyria. However, the records surviving from the previous cycle mention only six dragons.”
“What knowledge we have of the elder dragons comes from the survivors of the previous cycle of awakening, over 11,000 years ago. During that time, the dragons are believed to have caused the extinction of the Giganticus Lupicus, along with most life on Tyria.”
Timeline :
786 BE Humans appear in Cantha for the first time and settle the northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent. Their development is unhindered by the Forgotten.
10,000 BE Last of the Giganticus Lupicus, the Great Giants, disappear from the Tyrian continent.
Humans showed up after the last elder dragon attack.
- “first they were in Cantha, then Elona, and only then Tyria, where the 3 kingdoms were initially colonies of these foreign places.
what you’re trying to deny”
I am not denying how the humans spread across Tyria.
I am questioning how that is proof that the gods “were gods before the dragons were even a thing”.
- _"whichever way the gods obtained their power, it was completely and utterly unrelated to the elder dragons."
That is likely true however there is no certainty which is why there are room for fun theories. No one knows how the gods obtained their power not even you. I don’t claim that my theory is the definite answer either which I went into in the original post.
- “the power of the gods exists even when they are beyond the elder dragons’ reach (read: in cantha or elona)”
Where does it say that? Yes, the dragons are currently on the continent of Tyria but where is this proof that they have some sort of invisible border they can’t cross? Cantha is called the empire of the dragon and Kuunavang was in Cantha. That leans towards dragon influence in Cantha.
In fact Glint was even in the Crystal Desert which is connected to Elona and Kralkatorrik is in the desert now.
- “they are born with that power (see grenth, a half god who ascended to godhood after defeating the previous god of death, dhuum)”
Grenth was born a half god and gained Dhuum’s power when he defeated him so he wasn’t born with the power he has today.
- “and their power hasn’t “waded”. they simply left. and they left during nightfall (which, BTW, has a human become a god without having to sap any dragon magic), years before the first sign of elder dragon activity (destroyers).”
I shouldn’t have used that wording. I don’t know what’s happened to them or their power anymore than you do. That aside:
First, this isn’t the first nor the second time the dragons have awoken but simply one of many times in a long cycle. Second, it was only three years before earthquakes erupted across Tyria that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t destroyers didn’t start slowly waking before that.
“786 BE Humans appear in Cantha for the first time and settle the northern coastline before spreading completely across the continent.”
remember this: with the humans came the human gods. the human gods were not in tyria before the humans, they arrived together. THAT is my proof. if humans came to tyria much after the first elder dragon attack, then so did the gods. and as far as lore takes us, the gods have always been gods, since way before they sat foot in the planet.
“Where does it say that? Yes, the dragons are currently on the continent of Tyria but where is this proof that they have some sort of invisible border they can’t cross?”
so now you’re implying that the gods have been dragging the dragons around, to have their source of power within reach? the dragons were in Tyria for the entirety of humanity’s existence, the human gods couldn’t have possibly absorbed some of that power all the way from cantha, where they were already gods. unless you’re also implying there are more dragons, in which case this ceases to be a lore discussion and becomes a “what if” discussion.
“Grenth was born a half god and gained Dhuum’s power when he defeated him so he wasn’t born with the power he has today.”
how do you overthrow a god? remember that there are only two known cases of this: a group of heroes blessed by the 5 gods to take down a weakened, trapped god, and Grenth, with 7 mortals, taking Dhuum down when Dhuum was in full power, and with no help of the other gods. Grenth wasn’t born human. he was born with the power to become a god. all that was left was taking Dhuum down.
.
you’ve presented a theory: the gods were once humans that harvested the power of the dragons.
i’ve proven your theory wrong: the gods, and the humans, came to the planet Tyria together, with the gods already in their “god status”. it would be hundreds of years until a human god came even close to a sleeping elder dragon (namely, when they sat foot in Orr).
there are hundreds of years where the human gods were gods and weren’t anywhere close to a dragon, and as such, their power does not come from the dragons. theory proven wrong. end of discussion.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Not to flame or hate or anything really, but I’m pretty sure Gods vs Dragons have little or no connection at all.
Also, the “Pale Tree: Melandru” part almost made me not want to read the rest of your post.
Again, not hating or anything, but people really need to stop connecting the Elder Dragons with everything.
I’m almost positive that Anet has said something like, The Elder Dragons aren’t everything.
Sorry for the typos….
I’m usually typing on my phone
I’m usually typing on my phone
This is most likely going to getting drowned in other posts and nobody will listen to me, but…
The Pale Tree is not an Elder Dragon
The reasoning:
Elder dragons, CORRUPT life and magic, the Pale Tree CREATES life.
I understand that people will use the CoE as an example, however, the “tree” corner is only representative of NIGHTMARE. The nightmare is NOT evidence to support that it is the pale tree’s natural state. We can see this in the Personal Story quest where you meet another Sylvari from a different tree. He is NOT corrupted or within nightmare. Also, if you knew anything about what the pale tree actually was, you’d understand that it was PLANTED. Not created. The Elder Dragons have always been, the pale tree hasn’t. It was a seed. Case closed, theory destroyed. End of story.
BUT WAIT THERE’S MORE!!
The Gods Already Had Their Power
The Gods actually had to get to Tyria. There is evidence for this is Orr. They actually state several times about this. Also, Balthazar held the head of his FATHER, Dhuum isn’t really spoken much about, though he has nothing to with Ice, that’s Abaddon’s domain at the time. Abaddon had a predecessor, as stated by the Apostle. This is possibly Arachnia, however she is not cannon lore. Abaddon is God of Knowledge and Water, however this power is transferable between gods. It became Grenth’s domain (Water elementalists worshipped Grenth in GW1’s time) and then when Kormir ascended to godhood, Lys and Illya (aka, Lyssa) took it over. Lyssa is actually two gods. Primodious is more heavily associated with EARTH rather than fire. Balthazar is not. Zhaitan has nothing to do with Dwayna, period. He has to do with undeath, arguably Dhuum’s domain, however Dhuum never allowed for resurrection or undeath. Lyssa has nothing to do with Energy.
Again, your theory comes apart here.
If you were actually well versed in lore, you would understand ALL of this and not bother with such rubbish theories. Yes, your theory is kitten. Just like the Pale Tree theory. The Elder Dragons = Anything theory does not make a single ounce of sense. It just doesn’t. They don’t match up with anything, other than LOOSELY the races (Charr=Kralk, Asura=Prim, Sylvari = Zhaitan, Norn= Jormag, Human = DSD, but that’s where it falls apart, the DSD)
Also, if you’re looking for a Sixth Elder Dragon, look for the community named “Celestia”. Evidence shows there was six or is six and that it is possible Kuunavang represents a celestial elder dragon. Though this is wild speculation, though based upon better evidence than the Pale Tree theory.
noice
- “remember this: with the humans came the human gods. the human gods were not in tyria before the humans, they arrived together. THAT is my proof.”
So your thought is they wherever they came from they were always as powerful as they are now and considered gods.
- “. if humans came to tyria much after the first elder dragon attack, then so did the gods. and as far as lore takes us, the gods have always been gods, since way before they sat foot in the planet.”
It wasn’t the first elder dragon attack just the previous in a long cycle.
- “so now you’re implying that the gods have been dragging the dragons around”
No. My theory was based off of them gaining power from the dragons not that they were their only source of power.
- “you’ve presented a theory: the gods were once humans that harvested the power of the dragons.”
This is the third time you’ve put words in my mouth. I never said I thought the gods were humans. Here is my exact theory again:
Theory: The human gods are somehow harnessed the raw energy of dragons while the dragons slumbered, just like the Asura did, which explains why their power has waned during the awakening of the dragons. Perhaps they were even weakening and prolonging the awakening of the dragons by doing so.
- “This is most likely going to getting drowned in other posts and nobody will listen to me, but…”
Don’t worry fellow lore person when I said I welcomed all discussion on this topic I meant it no matter the tone.
- “Case closed, theory destroyed. End of story.”
Oh well in that case-
- “BUT WAIT THERE’S MORE!!”
Oh case rep-opened, gotcha.
- “There is evidence for this is Orr. They actually state several times about this.”
“Evidence shows there was six or is six and that it is possible Kuunavang represents a celestial elder dragon.”
That’s really interesting and I’d love to read it myself and further learn about the lore. Would you share your evidence?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr
Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forgotten
It is said that the forgotten were originally brought to Tyria from some unknown realm beyond the Mists by the Six Human Gods.
The gods were here long before they brought humanity to the land. They brought the Forgotten here too.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
No, the Six Human Gods arrived with humans on Tyria the world:
At an unknown time after the writing of the Tome of Rubicon, they arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them (although humans believe that they created Tyria, and the charr also have legends of Melandru creating the world), but from where is not known. Their age is also unknown, but it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods
Wherever they originated, humans are not native to the world as they were brought there by the Six Gods. The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History
Now, curiously, we know when humans arrived on Tyria:
Humanity arrived in Cantha in 786 BE, over 500 years before their arrival on the continents of Tyria and Elona. (Official Timelines)
And, we also know what the Human Gods did at that time:
The sunken city of Arah was the home to the Old Gods during their stay in Tyria. Originally founded by the gods when they brought the humans to Tyria…
It’s rather clear. The Six Human Gods haven’t been around on Tyria since day one, they arrived with humanity and were most likely human themselves until they each took upon one of the Six Aspects of Tyria.
These Aspects of Power are in discord with the Elder Dragons and have been part of Tyria for a long time, long before humans arrived.
Alexander’s Theory dovetails nicely with my own which you can find posted with reference links here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/74556-on-the-origin-of-the-human-gods-of-tyria/
(edited by Kuldebar.1897)
So we have two seemingly conflicting ideals. A-Net endorses both of them. In an effort to reconcile these statements i’ll propose this:
The “gods” themselves predate the humans on Tyria by many centuries (The beginning of history by charr standards). Indead they can be traced to the arival of the Forgotten on tyria. But the incarnations of the actual power of the gods has changed over time. Most recently being the personalities we know today.
Or, they were here before leaving and came back with humanity. But they were here in some way shape ot form long before humanity was.
So we have two seemingly conflicting ideals. A-Net endorses both of them. In an effort to reconcile these statements i’ll propose this:
The “gods” themselves predate the humans on Tyria by many centuries (The beginning of history by charr standards). Indead they can be traced to the arival of the Forgotten on tyria. But the incarnations of the actual power of the gods has changed over time. Most recently being the personalities we know today.
Or, they were here before leaving and came back with humanity. But they were here in some way shape ot form long before humanity was.
Kudos for attempting to untangle the knot!
I would offer this as an alternative to this statement by you:
The “gods” themselves predate the humans on Tyria by many centuries
ANet clearly states that the Human Gods only slightly predate humanity, so I offer that the Six Aspects of Power existed on Tyria before the Six Human Gods took up the mantles of those Aspects.
I only have 2 things to offer:
1) There seems to be conflicting lore between GW1 and GW2. Perhaps it’s just a simple matter of having different writers on staff. :P
2) The cyclical nature of the dragons, as well as their environment altering powers, overwhelmingly points towards them being responsible for the ice ages, and therefore global warming. We should all be on the lookout for any leafy looking dude who’s name starts with a “T” and ends with “rahearne.” 20 bucks says he’s in Oregon with all dem tree-huggers!
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
There are some conflicts in GW Lore and GW2, but I notice it depends on the “voice”. The scribe type accounts tend to be more flowery and seem to indicate they are based on traditional accounting.
The History of Tyria is a good example of this “voice”.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria
That tone usually involves the inclusion “hearsay” type information in its presentation.
This is good because it allows us to see what Tyrians believed but it has a limited use letting us know what really went down. Full of color and flavor but somewhat squishy.
Compared to this History:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyria_%28world%29
(edited by Kuldebar.1897)
I have a feeling that the lore changing has nothing to do with new writers, since Ree and especially Jeff Grubb have been around for a while. No the differentiation in lore is to show that much of what we knew in GW1 was entirely from the human perspective. We are learning new things in the game because we have new viewpoints, both from the new races, and the ancient races.
@Kuldebar
I agree with that, it is more of a storied account of history.
I was merely wondering if the writers of both are really the same writers. And if not, how many liberties were they given with the lore? I mean, having some GW1 lore be vague and inconclusive would certainly allow for a writer to steer the history this way or that…even if that writing is filling in blanks from GW1 lore and not strictly GW2 material.
As a history major I can tell that trying to sort out GW1 lore is a nightmare. =D
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
I have a feeling that the lore changing has nothing to do with new writers, since Ree and especially Jeff Grubb have been around for a while. No the differentiation in lore is to show that much of what we knew in GW1 was entirely from the human perspective. We are learning new things in the game because we have new viewpoints, both from the new races, and the ancient races.
It’s unclear when Ree was brought onboard ANet, the only info I can find about her concerning writing is that she is "credited as the author of the GW backstory for GW2. Whatever that means.
And Jeff was hired on to write story for Nightfall, and later EotN. But not before that.
So I dunno. :/
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
ANet clearly states that the Human Gods only slightly predate humanity, so I offer that the Six Aspects of Power existed on Tyria before the Six Human Gods took up the mantles of those Aspects.
Upon further exploration, A-Net seems to support this.
It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria
ANet clearly states that the Human Gods only slightly predate humanity, so I offer that the Six Aspects of Power existed on Tyria before the Six Human Gods took up the mantles of those Aspects.
Upon further exploration, A-Net seems to support this.
It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria
I think this helps nail it down:
it is known that the current pantheon is not the first
You realize though, that the quote you are making is extremely flawed?
The race of serpents mentioned in this text are the Forgotten, and it is known that these creatures existed on Tyria during the time of the last awakening of the Elder Dragons. Now this isn’t to say that the gods didn’t bring them to Tyria, but if this is the case it seems that the gods tend to come to Tyria, bring races, and get the heck outta dodge before the dragons awake again. Hmm perhaps the gods are bringing the dragons meals so that they won’t attack the mists? :P
You realize though, that the quote you are making is extremely flawed?
The race of serpents mentioned in this text are the Forgotten, and it is known that these creatures existed on Tyria during the time of the last awakening of the Elder Dragons. Now this isn’t to say that the gods didn’t bring them to Tyria, but if this is the case it seems that the gods tend to come to Tyria, bring races, and get the heck outta dodge before the dragons awake again. Hmm perhaps the gods are bringing the dragons meals so that they won’t attack the mists? :P
I proposed something similar higher up in the thread(Getting out of dodge) but then I found them referred to as the ‘old gods’. This plus the confirmation that the pantheons change seems to indicate that the personalities change as other attain or take the mantle of godhood from the previous god.
You realize though, that the quote you are making is extremely flawed?
The race of serpents mentioned in this text are the Forgotten, and it is known that these creatures existed on Tyria during the time of the last awakening of the Elder Dragons. Now this isn’t to say that the gods didn’t bring them to Tyria, but if this is the case it seems that the gods tend to come to Tyria, bring races, and get the heck outta dodge before the dragons awake again. Hmm perhaps the gods are bringing the dragons meals so that they won’t attack the mists? :P
There have been predecessor pantheons of Gods, so I don’t really see the flaw.
Yes, but I would like to point 1 thing out, the last dragon awakening was believed to be around the time of the extinction of Giganticus Lupicus (I haven’t seen anything to outright say this though). Now that is 10,000 BE, the gods appeared on Tyria (for the first time that we have evidence of) in 205 BE. So for the gods to have brought the forgotten to Tyria it would have had to have been muuuuuuuch longer ago, well before the last dragon awakening.
And the fact that the gods, in this instance, brought the forgotten into the world well before ever bringing in humans points to the possibility that these gods are lords over many differing races, as opposed to solely humanity.
But that being said, I have no problems with the idea that the gods are not all permanent beings, in fact we know that a large portion of them had predecessors. Balthazar’s father, Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor, Kormir from Abaddon, and Grenth from Dhuum.
Sidenote: the date of the appearance of the gods that I used is the first date of humans on Tyria, I know this isn’t exactly correct, but that it gives you a general idea of the differences in time.
Is there a single instance of any being using the dragon’s power that hasn’t been wholly corrupted? Vizier Khilbron, for instance, was tainted by Zhaitan’s power. Further, didn’t Zhaitan have to GRANT Khilbron that power? To claim that the gods somehow tapped the dragons power without consequence – corruption, etc. – and against the dragon’s will seems without precedent or foundation.
Is there a single instance of any being using the dragon’s power that hasn’t been wholly corrupted? Vizier Khilbron, for instance, was tainted by Zhaitan’s power. Further, didn’t Zhaitan have to GRANT Khilbron that power? To claim that the gods somehow tapped the dragons power without consequence – corruption, etc. – and against the dragon’s will seems without precedent or foundation.
Facets are interesting.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Facets
“The Facets encountered in the Tarnished Coast and during The Path to Revelations are said to “reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed”
Is there a single instance of any being using the dragon’s power that hasn’t been wholly corrupted? Vizier Khilbron, for instance, was tainted by Zhaitan’s power. Further, didn’t Zhaitan have to GRANT Khilbron that power? To claim that the gods somehow tapped the dragons power without consequence – corruption, etc. – and against the dragon’s will seems without precedent or foundation.
Erm…didn’t Zojja’s mentor(the name eludes me at the moment) tap into Zhaitan’s mind and temporarily shut him down when Destiny’s Edge confronted him? There’s nothing that said he got corrupted from it, only that he was slain by Z’s minions because Thackeray had to leave to save his gf.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
ANet clearly states that the Human Gods only slightly predate humanity, so I offer that the Six Aspects of Power existed on Tyria before the Six Human Gods took up the mantles of those Aspects.
Upon further exploration, A-Net seems to support this.
It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_TyriaI think this helps nail it down:
it is known that the current pantheon is not the first
I don’t mean to pry, but why do you keep assuming that since there have been different pantheons of gods, that the ones at the Forgotten’s time have to be of a different pantheon. We don’t even know what a pantheon here is, outside of a real life definition. Does having one god change identities, like Grenth and Dhuum, constitute a different pantheon? Or do they all have to change to be so? Do they have to be in human form? Were they in human-forms just for humans, or did they assume other forms for other races? There’s too many variables out there still to concretely say… they were not the same ones.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time.http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History
If they were the same gods, they’d have to predate them by multiple thousand years.
The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time.http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History
If they were the same gods, they’d have to predate them by multiple thousand years.
See other thread. :/
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
Is there a single instance of any being using the dragon’s power that hasn’t been wholly corrupted? Vizier Khilbron, for instance, was tainted by Zhaitan’s power. Further, didn’t Zhaitan have to GRANT Khilbron that power? To claim that the gods somehow tapped the dragons power without consequence – corruption, etc. – and against the dragon’s will seems without precedent or foundation.
Erm…didn’t Zojja’s mentor(the name eludes me at the moment) tap into Zhaitan’s mind and temporarily shut him down when Destiny’s Edge confronted him? There’s nothing that said he got corrupted from it, only that he was slain by Z’s minions because Thackeray had to leave to save his gf.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Snaff
It was Kralkatorrik, not Zhaitan. But is controlling the body of an ED the same as tapping into its power? I don’t see any reason to think they’re identical, and during SE story Zojja mentions that Snaff would never approve of Kudu’s experiments with dragon power because it’s too unstable and too dangerous. I don’t see where you’re getting the idea that Snaff used dragon power. What have I missed?
(edited by xev.9476)
Is there a single instance of any being using the dragon’s power that hasn’t been wholly corrupted? Vizier Khilbron, for instance, was tainted by Zhaitan’s power. Further, didn’t Zhaitan have to GRANT Khilbron that power? To claim that the gods somehow tapped the dragons power without consequence – corruption, etc. – and against the dragon’s will seems without precedent or foundation.
When was it stated that Khilbron was tainted by Zhaitan’s power?!? Everything I have ever seen in either game pointed towards his creation being a side effect of the spell he used, as well as the creation of the undead orrian army that plagued kryta in GW1. I mean even in the game it says that Zhaitan claimed the orrian army for his own upon awakening, which is something he wouldn’t need to do if he had made it in the first place.
@xev
Ah yeah you’re right, my mistake. And I didn’t know you were being specific on assuming the dragons power. I don’t remember it being Zhaitan who corrupted the Vizier, is that right?
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
In GW1 it was Abaddon who corrupted the Vizier but I could swear that Khilbron is mentioned in the same breath as Zhaitan in one of the GW2 personal stories…
Perhaps it was just some theory I read elsewhere. I think the point still stands, though, about their not being anyone we know of able to “tap” or use the dragon’s power without becoming corrupted.
(edited by xev.9476)
Is there a single instance of any being using the dragon’s power that hasn’t been wholly corrupted?
I already gave an instance of it at nearly the start of my post.
“Theory: The human gods somehow harnessed the raw energy of dragons while the dragons slumbered, just like the Asura did…”
“Polestar to the vast wheel of Asura Gates, the Central Transfer Chamber is a magical and architectural marvel constructed atop a major pocket of magical energy. The Asura channel that raw power to fuel all the gates in the network and link them together via this great crossroads of transport. Most of the major gates across Tyria lead to this location.”
“Primordus was the first of the Elder Dragons to awaken in Tyria. Primordus’ original resting place was in a cavern deep underground, where it was assumed by the asura to simply be a statue emitting a high amount of magical energy. For this reason, they built the Central Transfer Chamber near the dragon.”
(edited by Alexander.4827)
I agree with the ties except for Dwayna and Dhuum/Grenth. My personal take is the aspects the represent are reversed.
Dhuum was the god of Death. He forbid undead. Zhaitan isn’t about death so much as undeath and converting things to this state.
Jormag is associated with ice, but as we find out with some of the Norn stories, he has some powers over the Mists. If you look at the corrupted crystals representing his influence, they look like light taken solid form. Light is Dwayna’s domain.
Okay, I think these kinds of theories are bogus, because of the fact that if there was meant to be a tie in it would be just a little bit more obvious and less convoluted. To prove this I’ll tie the dragons to the gods that would be similar to them.
Jormag takes control of his minions through a form of mind control, but his primary form of corruption is ice (not crystal) This would (in your theory) point to him being tied to both Lyssa (Mind Control) and Grenth (Ice)
Primordius is literally just in control of rock and fire, so he pretty much only correlates to Balthazar that we know of.
Zhaitan creates a mockery of life and death through his undead monstrosities, thus he would be the relate able to both Dwayna and Grenth/Dhuum.
Kralkatorrik corrupts nature by manipulating it, and if you don’t believe this just look at the dragonbrand. So Kralkatorrik would be related to Melandru, but only in an opposing fashion. None of the gods seem to fit into Kralkatorrik’s style otherwise.
The Deep Sea Dragon (Bubbles) is something we know nothing about. The only thing we know is he likes the oceans, and Abaddon/Lyssa being the gods of water are the only correlation we have there.
So you see, it’s a messy, sticky, convoluted mess. So if they really want to make the connection, there’s definitely some work to do there.
Personally, I prefer to think that the dragons simply ate the gods. This is why there have been several pantheons.
More realistically, that the connection between the two is that the gods search the realms in the mists for races with “potential”, abduct them, bring them to tyria, guide them, nurture them, and when the dragons are about to awake, leave. It’s as if they want to remove the dragons but can’t do it themselves for whatever reason, so they spend the majority of their time looking to find someone that can do it for them.
This would also explain why there are just SO MANY COMBAT ARENAS apart from any major realm, just sitting in the mists. The gods are shopping and set them up.
What they didn’t account for was something that likely hasn’t happenned before, that race striking an alliance with its peers to raise sufficient force and weaponry to actually do the job.
Lets face it, in the eyes of Tyria, humanity has had a pretty bad run of things. In the eyes of the gods? They killed Abaddon, re-imprisoned the titans, and assisted the envoys with Shiro. From the perspective of the gods, if this theory is accurate, humans look like a pretty good bet to them.
Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
(edited by PopeUrban.2578)
Personally…
…the connection between the two is that the gods search the realms in the mists for races with “potential”, abduct them, bring them to tyria, guide them, nurture them, and when the dragons are about to awake, leave.
Now that is interesting. I’ve always felt that for whatever reason the gods were hiding from the dragons. Their timing is just too convenient. If the dragons can consume powerful magic sources then the gods would be targets. They would be better off spreading magic out between millions of organisms and making sure they know how to use it.
I think the gods just bring helpless races to tyria in order to feed the dragons and keep them at bay and out of the mists during the time of their awakening :P
Go for Sacrifices!
1 2