Guild Wars 2

Wanderer.3248:

They most definitely do create the Nightmare.

Incorrect, I just quoted the wiki which you yourself recited but clearly did not read.

The memories and experiences of the Nightmare Court are the Nightmare. They perform evil acts so that the memory and experience of those actions enters the dream.

To perform isn’t to create. Instead it’s more like they “weaponized” it. The Nightmare was present before the founding of the Nightmare Court since Caedern, the creator of the Nightmare Court was a secondborn and Faolain was first.

Whatever darkness Faolain and Caithe encountered was outside the Dream.

Obviously they weren’t. If you read the wiki, that same place where you recite your comments from, it explicitly states that unless if you’re Soundless, you (a sylvari) are still connect to the Dream.

You failed to read the first part of my post and removed it.

• The Nightmare Court is a home to those sylvari who reject the Ventari Tablet’s teachings, embrace the nightmares encountered within the Dream of Dreams
• Eventually, Cadeyrn had managed to bring the Firstborn Faolain into his fold though this was after Faolain had first touched the Nightmare herself

The wiki completely contradicts your statements, in a pretty blatant way.

Within the Dream is a nightmare, tugging at the heart of each sylvari. Some sylvari are more susceptible than others, and those who have succumbed to the nightmare have formed the Nightmare Court

Where does it say they “created” the Nightmare? The answer is simple, it doesn’t.

Ronin.7381:

To perform isn’t to create. Instead it’s more like they “weaponized” it.

Now you’re just making stuff up. They weaponise nothing. They don’t take from the dream, they add to it.

Ronin.7381:

Whatever darkness Faolain and Caithe encountered was outside the Dream.

Obviously they weren’t. If you read the wiki, that same place where you recite your comments from, it explicitly states that unless if you’re Soundless, you (a sylvari) are still connect to the Dream.

The wiki completely contradicts your statements, in a pretty blatant way.

Caithe and Faolain left the Tree (so obviously it was after they entered the real world), went exploring, encountered a darkness. Faolain then joined Caderyn and attempted to corrupt the Dream.

Those are known facts. I don’t know where you get the idea that this darkness was from the dream. The only other time people have re-entered the dream is the personal story mission in Arah.

Ronin.7381:

Within the Dream is a nightmare, tugging at the heart of each sylvari. Some sylvari are more susceptible than others, and those who have succumbed to the nightmare have formed the Nightmare Court

Where does it say they “created” the Nightmare? The answer is simple, it doesn’t.

They create. Present tense. The creation is ongoing, (and growing) because of their actions. Just like the rest of the dream is added to by Dreamers.

The Sylvari personal story starts with the Nightmare Court attacking the dream.

Caithe: “This poison spreads hatred and anger. We must fight it.”
Player: Who caused this?
Caithe: “An evil group called the Nightmare Court. They wish to harm the sleepers. Trust me, sapling. All will be made clear to you very soon.”
Player: Why attack the Dream?
Caithe: “Because the Dream shapes us all before we awaken, just as it is now shaping you. A darkness within it takes root in our own hearts and becomes a lasting shadow there.”

If you’re quite done derailing this thread, I’d like to see some proof for all the claims you’re making since apparently none of the proof to the contrary we keep posting is sufficient. I’ve already said it’s too early to tell where the whole NC angle will go, and that it has almost 0 bearing on the rest of the theory when there are the sylvari of Malyck’s tree to consider, but if you insist on arguing semantics, I’m gonna need to see some proof.

Wanderer.3248:

Ronin.7381:

To perform isn’t to create. Instead it’s more like they “weaponized” it.

Now you’re just making stuff up. They weaponise nothing. They don’t take from the dream, they add to it.

That is incorrect. They add to something (the Nightmare) that already existed and predated the NC. Hence “weaponise” they didn’t create anything but a group to associate with. This same “group” was inspired by the Nightmare within the Dream of Dreams. I can’t help you any further if you’re going to make excuses by making up stuff while referencing something you are not reading properly; and then accuse me of making these things up. This is a user issue, you are not supplying any facts, you’re misinterpreting that which has been presented to you.

Case in point, you’re wrong. Your entire interpretation is wrong, it’s all based on your lack of paying attention to the very same material you claim to be looking into. I’ve quoted those text from the wiki:

• Dream of Dreams
• Nightmare Court

So you’re arguing against the facts.

Wanderer.3248:

Caithe and Faolain left the Tree (so obviously it was after they entered the real world), went exploring, encountered a darkness. Faolain then joined Caderyn and attempted to corrupt the Dream.

If we’re going to take NPC dialog as “fact”, as silly as that sounds, then you reach an inconsistency. Example:

Caithe: Excellent. But before you go, a warning: do not listen to their lies. If you become corrupted… there is no cure.

So she couldn’t have possibly encountered the Nightmare like you suggest by your logic. She would be an ally of the NC and our enemy. Clearly that doesn’t happen.

Maybe it’s time to rename this thread into ‘The NC, Paletree and Mordremoth’ ? :P

SpeedFiend.4521:

If you’re quite done derailing this thread, I’d like to see some proof for all the claims you’re making since apparently none of the proof to the contrary we keep posting is sufficient. I’ve already said it’s too early to tell where the whole NC angle will go, and that it has almost 0 bearing on the rest of the theory when there are the sylvari of Malyck’s tree to consider, but if you insist on arguing semantics, I’m gonna need to see some proof.

You aren’t posting any. Your just denying what is in the Wiki and in the Personal Story, and what happens in the open world and dungeons.

How many pieces of evidence do you need:

Time and again we see the Nightmare Court acting to create recruits with pain and suffering. If you don’t believe me, go to Briarthorn Den and see for yourself.

In the personal story Caithe explains that the Court perform of evil so that these acts will corrupt the dream. She also points out that Faolain is attempting to corrupt the dream.

Gavin openly states that he will use the Pale Stag to corrupt the dream.

The Wiki entry for Caderyn makes it quite clear that the aim of the Court is to corrupt the dream, and the tree.

The start of the Sylvari person story has the Nightmare Court attacking the dream.

The entry on the Nightmare Court describes how they convert Sylvari, and how they influence the dream.

The Wiki entry on the Dream clearly states that it is the memories of Sylvari that fill the dream. The Coutier’s memories also enter the dream. In fact if they weren’t trying to corrupt the dream, they’d probably just cut themselves off, like the Soundless do.

That’s eight pieces of evidence that the Nightmare Court are creating The Nightmare.

Edit:

The NC killed/torture/commit acts of wickedness because in doing so their negative emotions become part of the Dream. This strengthens the Nightmare, turning more sylvari toward it, the endgame being to turn the Pale Tree itself to Nightmare.

Those are your words.

It makes nonsense of the idea that Mordremoth (or anyone) is using the Nightmare to covert Sylvari. If anything, the reverse is happening and something is using the court, specifically Faolain, to create the Nightmare.

Ronin.7381:

So she couldn’t have possibly encountered the Nightmare like you suggest by your logic. She would be an ally of the NC and our enemy. Clearly that doesn’t happen.

That’s not what the Wiki entry for Faolain says:

When the pair encountered a great darkness, Caithe pulled back from it, while Faolain embraced it. The two have been separated since, but the Grand Duchess has vowed that Caithe will return to her in time, and so often shadows her beloved, armed with pleas and temptations.

Wanderer.3248:

You aren’t posting any. Your just denying what is in the Wiki and in the Personal Story, and what happens in the open world and dungeons.

How many pieces of evidence do you need:

Time and again we see the Nightmare Court acting to create recruits with pain and suffering. If you don’t believe me, go to Briarthorn Den and see for yourself.

In the personal story Caithe explains that the Court perform of evil so that these acts will corrupt the dream. She also points out that Faolain is attempting to corrupt the dream.

Gavin openly states that he will use the Pale Stag to corrupt the dream.

The Wiki entry for Caderyn makes it quite clear that the aim of the Court is to corrupt the dream, and the tree.

The start of the Sylvari person story has the Nightmare Court attacking the dream.

The entry on the Nightmare Court describes how they convert Sylvari, and how they influence the dream.

The Wiki entry on the Dream clearly states that it is the memories of Sylvari that fill the dream. The Coutier’s memories also enter the dream. In fact if they weren’t trying to corrupt the dream, they’d probably just cut themselves off, like the Soundless do.

That’s eight pieces of evidence that the Nightmare Court are creating The Nightmare.

Edit:

The NC killed/torture/commit acts of wickedness because in doing so their negative emotions become part of the Dream. This strengthens the Nightmare, turning more sylvari toward it, the endgame being to turn the Pale Tree itself to Nightmare.

Those are your words.

It makes nonsense of the idea that Mordremoth (or anyone) is using the Nightmare to covert Sylvari. If anything, the reverse is happening and something is using the court, specifically Faolain, to create the Nightmare.

• This doesn’t preclude the Nightmare from being caused entirely by Mordremoth.

• Caithe has lied to her allies more often than not, so anything she says is actually more likely to be BS than not.

• Considering the Pale Tree is keeping secrets, see #2.

• You mean like the Sons of Svanir are using the alpha wolf to corrupt the entire wolf pack?

• This does nothing to explain the source of the Nightmare, which predates his awakening.

• Yeah, the Nightmare Court are attacking the dream in the shape of a giant plant dragon. Clearly that makes more sense than the Nightmare being caused by, oh, I don’t know, A giant freaking plant dragon.

• And how did the first Sylvari fall to Nightmare? Oh, that’s right, the nightmares they saw were in the Dream before any of them fell to Nightmare.

• The wiki entry you so quote also has a link to an official post clarifying how the Dream comes from the Pale Tree and has existed before a single sylvari fell off the Tree. Essentially, Ventari’s Tablet forms the basis for the Dream, starting with the Pale Tree itself.

Much as you may want to deny this, it’s kind of hard to skip the part where both of the guys working their hardest to free Mordremoth have been Sylvari and that embarassing moment when the supposed Nightmare Court attack on the dream is basically shaped like a nature dragon. Clearly it’s preposterous to think that the dragon-shaped nightmare in the dream is caused by a freakin dragon.

I’m fully aware of what I said, and yes, evil acts and so on strengthen the nightmare, but they are not the original source. You think some sylvari just rolled out of bed one morning and said to himself “You know what, I’m going to be a kitten to everyone and everything I meet today, take that Pale Tree!”

It makes perfect sense that Mordremoth is using the Nightmare to weaken the Pale Tree’s grasp on her children, as the Nightmare didn’t just come out of nowhere and was certainly not a product of any sylvari to begin with.

Wanderer.3248:

So for starters, it’s nothing like what Faolain felt for Caithe, and which was requited, for a time. Minions of Zhaitain do not have feelings towards other creatures (except possibly hate and hunger). You will not see a branded with a crush on Logan, or an Icebrood making the moves on Zojja. It’s just silly.

/sigh

The original question was, “Do dragon minions feel?” You said no, and I said yes. I then gave the Branded trying to follow the Dragonbrand in an attempt to get to their master and basically all the dialogue of the Risen of Orr as an example.

Your reply was to basically try to move the goalpost saying, “Well… They don’t feel anything towards other creatures so it doesn’t count.” It doesn’t help your argument when you contradicted it when you said, “Minions of Zhaitain do not have feelings towards other creatures (except possibly hate and hunger).”

Hate is a feeling of intense or passionate dislike.

Equally silly is the notion of a minion of Mordemoth having romantic inclinations for Caithe.

I never said that the Nightmare Count were minions of Mordy. I was repeatedly pointing out that the NC share a lot of the same general qualities that all the dragon minions share. Other posters were making the argument of the possible connections, some of which I agree with, but it was never apart of my argument.

And, in fact even the “emotion” of fanaticism, if it is such a thing, is not something I would ascribe to Dragon minions. Sons of Svanir are fanatics. Icebrood are slaves. If they have any feelings, they are their master’s feelings, not their own.

Fanaticism is a depth of emotion. That is why I kept pairing it together with “devotion” when describing them. Utter devotion is what they feel towards their master, and they are fanatical in their zeal towards it.

As for the bolded, you seem to be under the misconception that slaves, especially brainwashed slaves, can’t be fanatical devoted towards their master, but I already said that earlier in the threat…

Erukk.1408:

So, yes. While we don’t have a full understanding of the emotional spectrum of the Elder Dragons themselves, their minions do still feel emotions. It’s just that all their emotions like love, desire, anger, and empathy were corrupted, twisted, and remade by the Elder Dragons just like they were.

Even if they are fake and put in there to make them brainwashed drones, they are still emotions, and they are still felt by the dragon minions. That is what the entire debate has been about. “Do dragon minions feel?” Yes, they do. They feel fake emotions given to them by their ED master to make them obedient slaves.

The truth is this: That big blue guy in the mists that we save is an AI construct made by the original True dragons who ruled Tyria. They had realized the certainty that at some point, living species would become too potent with magic and destroy all of creation, so they made the AI to solve this problem. Unfortunately the AI did solve this problem, in his own way, and created the elder dragons. The elder dragons come in cycles every 10,000 years to wipe Tyria clean of magic and thereby “reset” the clock, creating an artificial equilibrium where magic never gets too strong in Tyria.

Unfortunately, us, being the kittenes that we are, will fight the dragons and make it to the mist citadel to confront Big Blue (see the name was a hint that it’s an AI) who will appear to us in the form of some random kid we saw in Lion’s Arch and say that his solution is no longer sufficient.

We will then be asked to pick a new solution which is actually the same solution in a variety of three different colors.

Rukh.9287:

We will then be asked to pick a new solution which is actually the same solution in a variety of three different colors.

8/8, but surely you mean 6 colors?

broin.3856:

Rukh.9287:

We will then be asked to pick a new solution which is actually the same solution in a variety of three different colors.

8/8, but surely you mean 6 colors?

pssst.

he’s making fun of mass effect 3

This vine, while appearing to be touched by Mordremoth, has been grown from seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria.

Gee, I wonder if there’s some other thing that was grown from a seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria that appears to have been touched by Mordremoth.

SpeedFiend.4521:

This vine, while appearing to be touched by Mordremoth, has been grown from seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria.

Gee, I wonder if there’s some other thing that was grown from a seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria that appears to have been touched by Mordremoth.

Because you know there wasn’t any huge amount of highly magical outside influence as well to go along with all of that as well. Stuff like: a huge amount of Bloodstone Dust, a highly magical flower pot, some Sacred Glacial Water, and finally a glob of Phantasmal Residue.

You know… Stuff everyone has lying around!

/sarcasm

Erukk.1408:

SpeedFiend.4521:

This vine, while appearing to be touched by Mordremoth, has been grown from seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria.

Gee, I wonder if there’s some other thing that was grown from a seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria that appears to have been touched by Mordremoth.

Because you know there wasn’t any huge amount of highly magical outside influence as well to go along with all of that as well. Stuff like: a huge amount of Bloodstone Dust, a highly magical flower pot, some Sacred Glacial Water, and finally a glob of Phantasmal Residue.

You know… Stuff everyone has lying around!

/sarcasm

Indeed, if only gameplay and lore were one and the same and the collective population of Tyria hadn’t destroyed enough bloodstone dust over the last few months to build a 1:1 scale replica of Orr entirely out of the kitten stuff. Just because you have to complete a fun lil’ scavenger hunt and get some stuff to plant a flower in a pot doesn’t mean the exact same conditions can’t exist elsewhere in the world.

Indeed, if only gameplay and lore were one and the same…

Until such a thing happens, we don’t know if a gameplay item like a backpack that you craft during a fun lil’ scavenger hunt could be taken as an actual example in lore or not yet.

Strange how item flavour text always has to do with lore instead of gameplay though.

Speaking of flavor text and back pieces, maybe we will so find out why Scarlet thought Tyria would need her one day as well, because words without explanation mean nothing in the end of the day.

Unless they give us alot more information on the matter in the next LS, I’m going to regard that backpack as only a gameplay item. After repeatedly making it clear that dragon corruption is irreversible (other than the Forgotten ritual), they can’t expect us to easily except something simple like the player’s “good vibrations” magically cured Mordremoth’s influence/corruption from the plant.

I suspect that, much like Caithe’s big secret, it’s a grab at making Scarlet’s character less crappy and boring. Both will probably be unveiled in another 20 months when the writers have come up with something that fits “which was the plan all along, you see”.

As for the irreversability of dragon corruption, I assume that’s the case when it’s fully completed, not so much when you step in half way through and screw it up.

Erukk.1408:

Speaking of flavor text and back pieces, maybe we will so find out why Scarlet thought Tyria would need her one day as well,

I wouldn’t hold your breath.

Wanderer.3248:

Erukk.1408:

Speaking of flavor text and back pieces, maybe we will so find out why Scarlet thought Tyria would need her one day as well,

I wouldn’t hold your breath.

i think that was sarcasm