Guild Wars 2

@Konig des Todes

As you said, menders are Sylvari-healers. Obviously we can’t assume without base that Tyria has anything akin to a Hippocratic Oath. But even without that, a Mender is a person of trust. So her visiting a Mender and telling him while keeping it a secret to anyone else doesn’t seem that implausible to me.

And it could be post experiment, shortly after Ceara became Scarlet (seeing as that’s all a blank page.) The bit from the interview does make it sound like that.

Tho the reason I’m tending to think it’s not, is that by the end of the journal, Ceara/Scarlet only just decided to find a way to face the madness that keeps tormenting and eating away at her.

But by the end of ‘What Scarlet Saw’, she’s already come to the conclusion that her plan will involve nations burning down and whatnot and that she will leave a stamp on whatever in the ‘new world’. Basically it seems like at this point she knows exactly what will happen from there on.

So …the discrepancy just seems weird to me.

@Xukavi

Well I know we can’t dismiss the dragon-painting completely in this theorizing and it would fit the quality of the writing if it turns out to be Modremoth after all.

But errr… she refuses dream AND nightmare. And everything we had figured out so far linked the jungle dragon to nightmare, so why would she give in to the dragon of that if she states she wants to be directed by neither?
Unless it turns out that Modremoth isn’t tied to Nightmare at all, which after all the clues that the lore-forum collected would be surprising.

Truth be told, nothing solidly links Mordremoth and Nightmare together. It’s still just theorycrafting that mainly stands on the Crucible of Eternity’s Experimental Green Lab’s creatures being collected for ties to the Elder Dragons and not for, say, the sylvari’s immunity to Elder Dragon corruption.

After reading the short story and listening to Scarlet’s Journal again, I think that it takes place fully after the experiment. During the short story, there is no mention of any entity. In fact, the only mention of anything she saw was the Pale Tree and the “truth” about it. This “truth” let her understand the grand design behind the Sylvari and presumably their purpose. The experiment though showing her all this left her exposed or broken which in turn led to the nightmares she started talking about in her journal. This also led to that entity trying to control her as she claims in the journal.

I believe there’s two parts to Scarlet: The first is her ordinary self trying to figure out what is happening to her and trying to find this entity. The second is herself losing control of what she does, in which case this entity is responsible for her actions. I don’t think she’s let it take control over her fully, but when she said she felt power and she’s not afraid anymore I think that’s exactly the case. She started having Nightmares and felt herself losing control over herself. This caused her to be afraid of that event. Once she confronted the Entity, she was no longer afraid of losing control over herself. This doesn’t necessarily mean that she never has control over her actions anymore imo, just that sometimes she does lose control and she has stopped being afraid of that happening.

@Elysian: From my perspective, she came out of the experiment not wanting either Dream nor Nightmare. Later on she started getting these Nightmares that changed how everything was going for her.

I don’t think Scarlet’s nightmares, are part of “the nightmare”. I think it’s something in her subconcious. I still think the pale tree is a dragon champion that has gone Glint. Sylvari are obviously an intelligent race. The protected seeds indicate that they existed before, and obviously are valuable to someone. Yet, history makes no mention of them. In Omadd’s chamber, Scarlet was able to disconnect totally from the protection of “The Dream” and from “The Nightmare”. It was at this time the entity took advantage of Scarlet’s weakness and is now plotting to destroy the Pale Tree, just as Glint was destroyed.

Yeah, I know the claim that only a ritual known by the forgotten can convert a champion. However, Glint had existed for many years as a champion, where the pale seedling had yet to develop. Possibly due to the immaturity of the pale tree, Ventari’s and Ronan’s efforts were enough to change the tree.

DarcShriek.5829:

I don’t think Scarlet’s nightmares, are part of “the nightmare”. I think it’s something in her subconcious. I still think the pale tree is a dragon champion that has gone Glint. Sylvari are obviously an intelligent race. The protected seeds indicate that they existed before, and obviously are valuable to someone. Yet, history makes no mention of them. In Omadd’s chamber, Scarlet was able to disconnect totally from the protection of “The Dream” and from “The Nightmare”. It was at this time the entity took advantage of Scarlet’s weakness and is now plotting to destroy the Pale Tree, just as Glint was destroyed.

Yeah, I know the claim that only a ritual known by the forgotten can convert a champion. However, Glint had existed for many years as a champion, where the pale seedling had yet to develop. Possibly due to the immaturity of the pale tree, Ventari’s and Ronan’s efforts were enough to change the tree.

The only way the Sylvari could be dragon minions is if Scarlet is actually working to aid a dragon. Based on her journal showing her desire to be remove herself from the influence of others it seems more likely she’s not working with dragons. If she’s not working with dragon’s and the Sylvari are dragon minions and the nightmare court know this then Scarlet wouldn’t have been able to form an alliance with the Nightmare court.

ANet is in a position to play it any way they want and even follow either side of player speculation, as long they explain some things away.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.

She gives into the force? I didn’t get that impression at all. How did you come to this conclusion?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.

She gives into the force? I didn’t get that impression at all. How did you come to this conclusion?

I believe the part that she said that she stared back and saw what was looking at her and she was no longer afraid could be taken as giving into the force. I think the better question would be, what exactly is giving into the force? The way I see it, she was just afraid of the entity and her losing control over herself, and now she’s not afraid of either.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.

She gives into the force? I didn’t get that impression at all. How did you come to this conclusion?

It could go either way really. The final entries of the journal are a bit ambiguous on it.

“Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared.”

This could be taken any number of ways. On one hand, Scarlet could be saying she’s losing control of herself to the “Entity”. On the other hand, it could tie in with the previous entries about the lack of sleep. The sleep deprivation, constant paranoia, and tormenting visions during what little sleep she does have, is slowly driving her (more) insane. Something that she has accepted now.

“It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.”

Obviously, the Entity is trying to convert her to its side. Whether or not that is working at the moment is up to question, since Scarlet isn’t one to be bossed around easily. Not to mention, if I remember right, she isn’t one to really join another group.

To me, personally, it sounds like she might try and kill it first. That might lead to totally opposite results though, because she would have to get to it first to kill it. If the Entity is Mordremoth, and she accidently awakens him, she might lose her choice of whether she wants to be it’s champion or not.

So far, the manipulation has only been seemingly mental: whispers from the forest, nightmares, and visions. Scarlet already has its mental hooks into her, if it awakens and its able to turn its full attention to her, it could probably overwhelm Scarlet and forcefully convert her.

Okay, i see it allready.

Going from the “anti-hero”-Theory, that she is out to get the entity, which is tormenting her (she is brilliant as far as we know. In my opinion she wants to face this being in some way or the other)

As soon as she had it all more clear (Omadd), she started to research more focused.

She had an idea and let her computer run simulations to make it real (Nightmare Tower Chamber).
She thought about to put several groups/races together to let them ascend over their normal behavior/limits and reap the fruits of their cooperation.

Thus following were the Molten Alliance, the Aetherblades and the Toxic Alliance.

The attack on LA was maybe a distraction or had a more direct effect. It could have been testing the Aetherblades, or trying to get someone of her assets into LA, to have another “force” on her side.
Did not work out and we, the heroes, start to get in her way (again).
Mai Tins dialog suggests that the whole operation was indeed Scarlets idea in some way.

While Scarlet is seeing doom and destruction, humanity suddenly starts to celebrate.
This might have annoyed her, since she is seeing the destruction at the horizon and taking it easy, even with Zaithans defeat (if PS is to be included), is not what the world should do.

So she attacks, shows how dangerous she is and begins her silly invasions (which under these aspects start to make sense).
She basicly got everyone in red alert with this action.

With everyone on edge, ready to fight anything that could happen she goes into advanced weapon testing.

As she is already expecting collateral damage and believes her way is the best possible solution to this problem (and explaining that to all races and politics would take too much time and effort and just delay everything), she uses the people who she tries to “save” as guinea pigs.

Now with her probes finally in place, she can monitor the movements the entities movements.

Now, she has everything ready. All that is left is the final test before she can get face to face with the being that is tormenting her in her dreams.
Then it all will be clear for her.

Though i can already see this coming:
- Scarlet wants to save us and we “heroes” come up and nearly prevent that from happening.
- The markers on her map are not her attack routes, but the one of the entity.
- She used her “troops” so much to thin them out, now even recalling her watchworks to power her marionette, to have less cleanup in the end.
- with holographic, watchwork and some small loyal armies she would be able to “defend” these points.

We try to stop her, even succeed, but then all hell breaks loose, thanks to her plan we save the day… for now…

The Priory Scholar Ela (in the L.A. recap instance) makes a big deal about Scarlet collecting alliances that compose the 4 major elements related to elementalists. I haven’t heard anyone try to tie this aspect into their frameworks.

How does this fit in?

^ i don’t think anyone has a good idea about it. TBH, it sounded a bit silly to me.

BrunoBRS.5178:

^ i don’t think anyone has a good idea about it. TBH, it sounded a bit silly to me.

I agree, but this is probably the most direct information that we have about the story so far and where it might go. This NPC was basically built to give players a sense of direction in terms of the storyline. To blatantly and explicitly point the elements out that way makes me think that it’s very important.

Psynch.4087:

The Priory Scholar Ela (in the L.A. recap instance) makes a big deal about Scarlet collecting alliances that compose the 4 major elements related to elementalists. I haven’t heard anyone try to tie this aspect into their frameworks.

How does this fit in?

My friend said that it was a theory that was going around reddit for a while, I guess it just never really made it to the lore forums? I know in game was the first I saw it, but my friend said he had read that before on reddit, and I know a lot of the other In Game theories are player theories so I’m not inclined to call bull kitten.

There were also hints in the computer found in the Tower of Nightmares, that hinted at the various elements being an important factor.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Ends

Wasn’t the Bazaar of Four Winds also revolving around some elements. Weren’t they also related to Glint?

Xukavi.4320:

Wasn’t the Bazaar of Four Winds also revolving around some elements. Weren’t they also related to Glint?

no, those were aspects. they’re similar, but they’re not elements.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There were also hints in the computer found in the Tower of Nightmares, that hinted at the various elements being an important factor.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Ends

well the only thing that it really hinted at is that the aetherblades were “mathematically” the most successful faction, or something like that. basically said air magic > other magic. no mention of the other elements.

i’m starting to think that this might be just one of the many fan theories that priory woman mentions, though perhaps it might be the one going on the right track, since it got more exposition than the others. “what did she want from each faction” rather than “what’s her ultimate goal”.

Well, the big question is why the collection of elements is important.

To me, it makes Scarlet seem less tied to a particular dragon. Based on what we know about dragon preferences (Primordus = rock/fire, etc), it wouldn’t make sense for someone to be under the influence of a dragon if they spend their time collecting and refining other elements.

That’s the part I’m trying to reconcile.

DarcShriek.5829:

Yeah, I know the claim that only a ritual known by the forgotten can convert a champion. However, Glint had existed for many years as a champion, where the pale seedling had yet to develop. Possibly due to the immaturity of the pale tree, Ventari’s and Ronan’s efforts were enough to change the tree.

Immaturity doesn’t matter for jack here. To be a dragon minion is to be fanatically and fully devout to the Elder Dragon. To dragon minions, the idea of not following their dragon is simply not fathomable. Why is this so? Because they don’t have free will.

No free will = cannot disobey their dragon.

The Forgotten ritual gives them free will. That is the “cleansing” of the corruption – it breaks the chains of enforced mental slavery and allows self-consideration, free will, or whatever you wish to call it. The ritual alone is not what turned Glint away from Kralkatorrik but the combination of free will and Glint’s ability to read others’ minds.

Immaturity is not a question, because if the Pale Tree was a dragon minion it simply would not be capable of disobeying.

Think of it like mind control, as that’s basically what it is. A subtle, magical, mind control to give all things corrupted devout and fanatical desires to follow the dragon that corrupted them. And it just isn’t simply a matter of free will to break free as there is no free will; and it isn’t a matter of nurture because there’s no way to break the train of thought without first introducing free will – and that’s something nurturing cannot do.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.

She gives into the force? I didn’t get that impression at all. How did you come to this conclusion?

“Tonight, I saw it. I started into the abyss, anD it stared back at me. So much power. I don’t know what’s real and what isn’t anymore. Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared. It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.”

Confronting doesn’t only mean to conflict with, but can also mean to speak up to. That last sentence doesn’t automatically mean “I’m going to fight this force!” Then add in the previous lines – she’s no longer afraid that she’s losing control, and she must know more.

It sounds more like she’s intending to confront it to learn from it. That is how she’ll end the madness – by answering questions she doesn’t know.

To me it sounds like she’s intending to do the same as she did with Beigarth, Asagari, and the asura colleges. Use the entity to learn from, then discard.

Jaken.6801:

While Scarlet is seeing doom and destruction, humanity suddenly starts to celebrate.
This might have annoyed her, since she is seeing the destruction at the horizon and taking it easy, even with Zaithans defeat (if PS is to be included), is not what the world should do.

So she attacks, shows how dangerous she is and begins her silly invasions (which under these aspects start to make sense).
She basicly got everyone in red alert with this action.

Issue with your theory is here. We’ve already got confirmation that Scarlet attacked the Jubilee on a whim because of Jennah’s own speech about being tested. Basically, Scarlet went “you were tested? Oh, well, not by me you haven’t! -attacks-”

TBH though, I don’t like nor believe the whole “anti-hero trying to fight a great evil” theory of Scarlet. It would just diminish her character. I would much prefer an “anti-villain who’s out to ‘save’ her race by removing the Dream and Nightmare” or something of the like. Something more interesting than “I’m evil because!” but not something that would turn her into a ‘good guy’ because… she isn’t. She just isn’t.

Psynch.4087:

The Priory Scholar Ela (in the L.A. recap instance) makes a big deal about Scarlet collecting alliances that compose the 4 major elements related to elementalists. I haven’t heard anyone try to tie this aspect into their frameworks.

How does this fit in?

Ela spouts out a bunch of player theories as Priory scholar’s theories while recapping Scarlet’s actions. I wouldn’t put weight onto anything new she says, truth be told. I mean, what does the dredge in their technology really have to do with earth? Flame Legion have fire magic. Aetherblades use air magitech. Toxic Alliance use water and plant magic. Dredge? They’re just living underground. It seems too far fetched to be a plot element, no pun intended, but perfect as just another player theory put in-game.

But if the elements did have something to do with things, then I’d imagine that it revolves around being power sources. Fire, lightning, water… these are all capable of being used as power. Earth? Materials – ores. That’s my guess.

Now here’s something that really has been forgotten:

Azurite. Does it play into things? It was introduced as a newly discovered mineral that must be melted down to be harvested but is highly magically conductive once done so.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jaken.6801:

While Scarlet is seeing doom and destruction, humanity suddenly starts to celebrate.
This might have annoyed her, since she is seeing the destruction at the horizon and taking it easy, even with Zaithans defeat (if PS is to be included), is not what the world should do.

So she attacks, shows how dangerous she is and begins her silly invasions (which under these aspects start to make sense).
She basicly got everyone in red alert with this action.

Issue with your theory is here. We’ve already got confirmation that Scarlet attacked the Jubilee on a whim because of Jennah’s own speech about being tested. Basically, Scarlet went “you were tested? Oh, well, not by me you haven’t! -attacks-”

TBH though, I don’t like nor believe the whole “anti-hero trying to fight a great evil” theory of Scarlet. It would just diminish her character. I would much prefer an “anti-villain who’s out to ‘save’ her race by removing the Dream and Nightmare” or something of the like. Something more interesting than “I’m evil because!” but not something that would turn her into a ‘good guy’ because… she isn’t. She just isn’t.

Psynch.4087:

The Priory Scholar Ela (in the L.A. recap instance) makes a big deal about Scarlet collecting alliances that compose the 4 major elements related to elementalists. I haven’t heard anyone try to tie this aspect into their frameworks.

How does this fit in?

Ela spouts out a bunch of player theories as Priory scholar’s theories while recapping Scarlet’s actions. I wouldn’t put weight onto anything new she says, truth be told. I mean, what does the dredge in their technology really have to do with earth? Flame Legion have fire magic. Aetherblades use air magitech. Toxic Alliance use water and plant magic. Dredge? They’re just living underground. It seems too far fetched to be a plot element, no pun intended, but perfect as just another player theory put in-game.

But if the elements did have something to do with things, then I’d imagine that it revolves around being power sources. Fire, lightning, water… these are all capable of being used as power. Earth? Materials – ores. That’s my guess.

Now here’s something that really has been forgotten:

Azurite. Does it play into things? It was introduced as a newly discovered mineral that must be melted down to be harvested but is highly magically conductive once done so.

Given the similarities between the azurite caverns in F&F and the chaos crystal caverns, I considered that they might have similar properties. Of course, there’s nothing explicit that hints at this. But given Scarlet’s massive portals and the frequency of these invasions, the tech behind that needs a lot of crystals for tuning (if we assume that she’s utilizing the same portal fundamentals as asuran tech).

This would also account for the huge magic reserves that she has for much of her other activities like the marionette going on right now.

Konig, you forget that Svanir had free will before becomming a dragon champion. The Sons of Svanir, all choose to become dragon minions, they are not forced. So please drop your no free will argument, that dog don’t hunt.

The Sons of Svanir are not technically dragon minions. Most of them remain themselves, and worship Jormag willingly. They are cultists, who seek the same power as Svanir received.

As for Svanir, he was tempted by promises power, and embraced it. But in doing so, he became corrupted by Jormag’s champion. His decision to join Jormag was one he chose freely (sort of, depends on how powerful the call of Jormag is).

DarcShriek.5829:

Konig, you forget that Svanir had free will before becomming a dragon champion. The Sons of Svanir, all choose to become dragon minions, they are not forced. So please drop your no free will argument, that dog don’t hunt.

And you forget that the Sons of Svanir are not dragon minions. Yes, they chose to become dragon minions because they have free will before becoming dragon minions.

Son of Svanir != Icebrood

Same goes for Svanir – he willingly chose to tap into Drakkar’s magic and in turn got corrupted into an Icebrood, where then he lost his free will. He retained some of his personality, as all of the stronger dragon minions (especially champions like Svanir became) was.

Jormag is unique in how he corrupts anyways – he entices people to willingly accept his corruption (thus they willingly give up their free will), whereas the other Elder Dragons forcibly enslave. Some Sons of Svanir (or intelligent Icebrood that were Sons of Svanir) forcibly corrupt for Jormag, but otherwise he entices with power to lead beings into corruption.

But still, your examples were of beings not (yet) dragon minions.

Eeeehhhh I have really no idea where the elements are supposed to fit in, not only because they’re really, really, REALLY loosely tied to the factions butalsosoundkindasilly.

Tho I have a vaaaague but really not substantial idea? In the Tower of Nightmares, we threw 4 things together and – woops, the result was Arcane. (Or at least the event stated we’re breaking an Arcane-seal from something made in an Arcane forge).
So, fire, earth, air, water, and then there’s that.

Maybe she needs all the components for recreating something like that on a larger scale?

Tho, there was no earth-component. We took a watchwork core. And the spore was well, a spore. Toxic alliance stuff, but not really water-magic related. And the molten alliance metal was cooled down, uhm.

>???
Yeaaaah… I think the elements were thrown in for the sake of suspense and confusion, much like the rest of Makkay’s player-theories.

I can understand Anet loving our speculations, but yanno sometimes I get the vibe that the story is WAY too focused on pushing for these rather than just telling the story with the speculations created naturally as by-product :P

ElysianEternity.6215:

Eeeehhhh I have really no idea where the elements are supposed to fit in, not only because they’re really, really, REALLY loosely tied to the factions butalsosoundkindasilly.

Tho I have a vaaaague but really not substantial idea? In the Tower of Nightmares, we threw 4 things together and – woops, the result was Arcane. (Or at least the event stated we’re breaking an Arcane-seal from something made in an Arcane forge).
So, fire, earth, air, water, and then there’s that.

Maybe she needs all the components for recreating something like that on a larger scale?

Tho, there was no earth-component. We took a watchwork core. And the spore was well, a spore. Toxic alliance stuff, but not really water-magic related. And the molten alliance metal was cooled down, uhm.

>???
Yeaaaah… I think the elements were thrown in for the sake of suspense and confusion, much like the rest of Makkay’s player-theories.

I can understand Anet loving our speculations, but yanno sometimes I get the vibe that the story is WAY too focused on pushing for these rather than just telling the story with the speculations created naturally as by-product :P

mechanical core, spore, cooled down ore, and a freaking flash drive.

those are the four elements scarlet was truly looking for.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Issue with your theory is here. We’ve already got confirmation that Scarlet attacked the Jubilee on a whim because of Jennah’s own speech about being tested. Basically, Scarlet went “you were tested? Oh, well, not by me you haven’t! -attacks-”

TBH though, I don’t like nor believe the whole “anti-hero trying to fight a great evil” theory of Scarlet. It would just diminish her character. I would much prefer an “anti-villain who’s out to ‘save’ her race by removing the Dream and Nightmare” or something of the like. Something more interesting than “I’m evil because!” but not something that would turn her into a ‘good guy’ because… she isn’t. She just isn’t.

Was that a quote in an interview, or did she say that? I am not really sure. Though if she said that it would not go against the theory, since she could have just played her role.
Again we do not know her goal so far.

Even if it was mentioned in an interview like that, it could still be interpreted the way i discribed: she is busy getting something ready and they party. Talking about being tested. Fine, let me test them for real attack.

I am not saying that she would be a good guy in the end. She would not be redeemed, since what she was doing was clearly wrong. She went over everyone just to get her goal, ignoring casualities.
Even if she talked to everybody and convinced them that her way is the right one, it would still be wrong.
Her methods do see people as reccources and not as living being. Things she can use and discard at will.

You are right, maybe the term “anti-villain” is better in this case. That she is just such a rational evil genius. That she discards her “humanity” (or equivalent in that case) for her goal.
In that way she is closer to an Inquest scientist, who use the same practices.

So far, all bets are still open.
We unfortunatly do not know her real goal. We know one piece of information about her motivation and the new info does not change that:
she has seen something and that something is still on her mind, whispering into her ear everytime she wants to rest.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Jaken.6801:

We do not know when it started, though. or do we?

It started some time after Omadd put Ceara through his experiment.

Jaken.6801:

What if she had these visions while she was Caera

She didn’t, as far as we know.

Jaken.6801:

Is just saying that she is gathering forces of every element.
This seems rather weak, if we think about everything we already know.

I would take everything that the Priory say at this point with a pinch of salt. She was camping out right underneath their base after all.

Jaken.6801:

a problem with tunnel drills is, that it still creates material behind it.
Going vertical would just have the material fall onto the drill, maybe even damaging it.
However if we see it as a giant portal machine, just with a drill attached, the rubble created would just be sucked into the void and transported somewhere else.

This is a reasonable assumption.

Jaken.6801:

Mordremoth
As far as we know, he is sitting somwhere in the Maguuma jungle.

We do not know this, and we have nothing to assume this might even be the case.

darkfiremew.5937:

We can’t get to the Forgotten because they are deep in Kralkatorrik’s territory

We don’t know if they are still around.

darkfiremew.5937:

And the Seers are in hiding or extinct

We have nothing to base this on either. A wild assumption based on zero evidence.

darkfiremew.5937:

The Mursaat could do something about it, but after the events of GW1 they won’t lift a muscle to help.

We don’t know anything about whether the Mursaat are still around, nor if they would be interested in fighting the dragons. We have no idea what their agenda might be, in regards to the Elder Dragons.

Zin.1673:

Well first of all who are you to judge theories.

You do realize you are arguing with someone with way more knowledge about the lore than yourself, right? That’s like saying to a firefighter: “Well what do you know about fire?!”

Talking about knowledge….

Seers were defeated by the Mursaat, they are hiding since then. The last Seer that played a role in the modern history helped Zinn (we are not even sure, maybe Zinn only found some technologies belonging to them).

Mursaat are well defeated, the few survivors of the Komali Gate were distroyed during the battle for the Lion’s Arch. As far as we know, 4 for them are left and the last time Anet mentionned the Mursaat it was AGES ago. So they my pop from a flower and participated somehow to some events but I highly doubt that they would play a main part.

Jaken.6801:

Was that a quote in an interview, or did she say that? I am not really sure. Though if she said that it would not go against the theory, since she could have just played her role.

Interview.

Jaken.6801:

Even if it was mentioned in an interview like that, it could still be interpreted the way i discribed: she is busy getting something ready and they party. Talking about being tested. Fine, let me test them for real attack.

Now you have two separate reasons and mentalities. Which kind of clash, imo. “They’re having fun. I should show them they should be getting ready!” vs “They think they’ve been tested? I’ll show them they’re wrong!”

While it’s possible to have both… her motivation being stated to be to kind of throw Jennah’s words in her face kind of makes dual reasons unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

Zin.1673:

Talking about knowledge….

Seers were defeated by the Mursaat, they are hiding since then. The last Seer that played a role in the modern history helped Zinn (we are not even sure, maybe Zinn only found some technologies belonging to them).

Mursaat are well defeated, the few survivors of the Komali Gate were distroyed during the battle for the Lion’s Arch. As far as we know, 4 for them are left and the last time Anet mentionned the Mursaat it was AGES ago. So they my pop from a flower and participated somehow to some events but I highly doubt that they would play a main part.

Technically…

• Seers went into hiding from the Elder Dragons. After the ED went to sleep, with the mursaat being in the Mists, there’d be no reason for them to hide.
• The one in Zinn’s lab… might have been dead. And as far as we knew, there was only one seer left.
• Door of Komalie, not Komalie’s Gate. And 1 survivor of the mursaat, not 4. Specifically, Lazarus. As far as we know, Lazarus is the last mursaat.

True about the Mursaat, I don’t know why I believed 4 were left. I compared the beyond quest’s with the known Mursaat’s hierarchy and none is left except him (or what is left from him). Yet they won’t be able to have a major role (except if Anet decides to create a twist)
Seer fought the dragons, they most likely went into hiding from the Mursaat. Well, “she/he” as it seems to be alone. Maybe the “interesting ideas” are just some sort of final battle between the 2 (which would be lame).

As far as I remember the dialogues (it’s been a while) the Seer has a very aggressive attitude toward the Mursaat (I can’t blame him) and seems to only help you defeating them. Question would be, did he knew about the Titans (obviously he would also know about the Dragons, but maybe not the chain reaction that would result from the Prophecy) ? If so, the race is just as “evil” as the Mursaat.

Being vengeful is not the same as being evil. The mursaat are depicted as selfish to the point of willingly wiping out multiple races. There’s a pretty big difference.

And the seers did go into hiding from the Elder Dragons, rather than the mursaat, if you were implying the opposite – Glint was the one who hid the seers, alongside the jotun, Forgotten, and dwarves. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten

As to the seer knowing of the titans… Whether it knew of the titans behind the Door, it knew what titans were and seemingly seen them before.

Ancient Seer: “Unchecked, the Titans will rend Tyria asunder. Stopping the Lich is the only real way to defeat them. But there is more to this problem than you know.”

Ancient Seer: “Among the Titan horde are their champions, the Armageddon Lords. If they are not stopped, these demons will surely bring an end to both man and beast. Most likely, the Lords will be the last ones through the portals that have been opened.”

Ancient Seer: “I wish to see this to its end. Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hell%27s_Precipice#Intermediate_dialogue

Just uploading these screens here for those that didn’t take some or want them for perusal. They’re… interesting.

Zin.1673:

Talking about knowledge….

Seers were defeated by the Mursaat, they are hiding since then. The last Seer that played a role in the modern history helped Zinn (we are not even sure, maybe Zinn only found some technologies belonging to them).

But they have yet to make any appearance in GW2.

Zin.1673:

Mursaat are well defeated, the few survivors of the Komali Gate were distroyed during the battle for the Lion’s Arch. As far as we know, 4 for them are left and the last time Anet mentionned the Mursaat it was AGES ago. So they my pop from a flower and participated somehow to some events but I highly doubt that they would play a main part.

The devs have stated their desire to bring them back at some point, as they like them just as much as many of the players do. However, they felt that they could not do them justice within the tight Living Story schedule. I think it’s reasonable to assume that we will see them again at some point.

And while it is true that during The Battle for Lion’s Arch we defeated a vast army of Mursaat, do we know for sure there are not more Mursaat elsewhere? And there was only one survivor that I know of.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Being vengeful is not the same as being evil. The mursaat are depicted as selfish to the point of willingly wiping out multiple races. There’s a pretty big difference.

Well, according to Glint the Mursaat are evil. A very biased statement of course, since it is from Glint’s perspective.

What is good and what is evil is entirerly based on perspective and values, I don’t think the mursaat are “evil” they’re just totally not on our side and they liked being worshiped as gods a lot more than us trying to wipe them out… I mean they did sorta have good reason for doing what they did in Gw1, and I don’t blame them for taking the approach of “screw you guys I’m going home” when it came to the elder dragons rising back then…. I mean hell that’s what I suggested when I first heard about the dragons “can’t we just flee to another realm or something? I’m assuming that’s what the priory is trying to do” was the exact words I used.

We had a long discussion about this a while back, but when you commit acts of outright murder, then you are evil, regardless of whether you are trying to save the world.

Murder is an evil act. And the Mursaat committed acts of murder on a very large scale. Not just for ritual sacrifice, but also to try and take over the free city of Lion’s Arch, and kill the Queen.

If we can’t call the Mursaat evil, then I can’t think of anything that would.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We had a long discussion about this a while back, but when you commit acts of outright murder, then you are evil, regardless of whether you are trying to save the world.

Murder is an evil act. And the Mursaat committed acts of murder on a very large scale. Not just for ritual sacrifice, but also to try and take over the free city of Lion’s Arch, and kill the Queen.

If we can’t call the Mursaat evil, then I can’t think of anything that would.

Yeah, I think it’s important to acknowledge that evil is subjective, but from the perspective of most of Tyria the Mursaat should be regarded as evil – and since it’s a video game we can pretty much just slap a giant “evil” label across their faces.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

We had a long discussion about this a while back, but when you commit acts of outright murder, then you are evil, regardless of whether you are trying to save the world.

Murder is an evil act. And the Mursaat committed acts of murder on a very large scale. Not just for ritual sacrifice, but also to try and take over the free city of Lion’s Arch, and kill the Queen.

If we can’t call the Mursaat evil, then I can’t think of anything that would.

Keep in mind our races have murderrd a great deal too, I mean kitten, we kinda did commit genocide on the Mursaat, and one of the greatest “heroes” of the humans (Gwen) is seen as one of the greatest villains to the Charr, not to mention the whole Guild Wars thing (actual events not the PvP game mode) etc etc etc.

We can’t call the Mursaat evil when the Humans/Charr would’ve done the same thing to one another as the Mursaat did to the Seers had the dragons not shown up, and we all know asura just wait for the day they can wipe out the entire Skritt race.

Murder is just as subjective as what’s good and evil. Perspective is EVERYTHING.

The thing that separates humans, charr, etc. from the mursaat is that what you can label as evil for the other races are to specific individuals, while the mursaat? All mursaat waged war, betraying the Seers, and then all mursaat fled the world rather than using their effective magic against the Elder Dragons. All mursaat came back only to form a cult and all mursaat sacrificed thousands on the Bloodstones to seal the Door of Komalie just to keep their own race safe.

The mursaat as a whole are selfish to the point of easily willing to kitten anyone for their own survival, even if it means wiping out a race or leaving a world to the Elder Dragons to consume.

Unlike most races which are “most individuals are good/neutral, but there are evil ones” the mursaat are more akin to the krait – “most/all individuals are evil, but there might be some good or neutral ones here and there, we just haven’t met them.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The thing that separates humans, charr, etc. from the mursaat is that what you can label as evil for the other races are to specific individuals, while the mursaat? All mursaat waged war, betraying the Seers, and then all mursaat fled the world rather than using their effective magic against the Elder Dragons. All mursaat came back only to form a cult and all mursaat sacrificed thousands on the Bloodstones to seal the Door of Komalie just to keep their own race safe.

The mursaat as a whole are selfish to the point of easily willing to kitten anyone for their own survival, even if it means wiping out a race or leaving a world to the Elder Dragons to consume.

Idk if I’d consider that to be evil though, they’re doing it for the good of their race, and do we know that ALL the mursaat came back to form a cult? Are we sure that some of the mursaat didn’t stay behind or go somewhere else?

And let’s be honest here, I doubt ANY race would have more than a handful of people (if that) that would stay behind to fight the elder dragons if the option to just leave was available. Most are fighting for the safety of themselves/friends/family/their race.

Don’t get me wrong, their race has done evil acts, but so has every race, I wouldn’t say the mursaat are an EVIL race, they certainly aren’t a good race either though… They’re just a race, they have their faults they have their strengths, they’re no more evil than asura, humans, or charr even if they are a bit more united.

Durzlla, acting in the good of your own race is fine and all, but when you stomp all over others when there’s absolutely no reason to do so then yes it’s evil.

Compare the Mursaat to the present races. The present races have discovered ways to fight the dragons and they’ve shared that information with the others and worked together so that they can ALL live. The Mursaat discovered a way to phase themselves out of the world and just left the other races. Obviously we don’t know if it was something ONLY the Mursaat could do, but given that the other races all had magical ability I doubt it.

Then look at the actions of the Mursaat when they came back to Tyria, they rounded up humans to sacrifice on the bloodstones in order to keep a perceived threat to their species at bay. Once again you COULD argue that they’re just protecting themselves, but they’re protecting themselves after having made no effort whatsoever to do so without killing people and they also were rather merciless when it came to dealing with the Krytans that they did discover. They’re evil. It’s simple.

They ARE more evil than the asura, humans and charr – because they have absolutely no redeeming features. The major races have their faults, but as a whole they do a pretty good job of working together and helping each other out when they can. The Mursaat hid in the background and manipulated humans purely so that they would have a constant stream of bodies to sacrifice.

On the topic of ‘when’ the dairy was written, I haven’t seen anyone mention this:

She spells out a key for her console in the diary: OMADD. In my opinion, the diary had to at least been written after she met him. This kind of leans towards her writing the diary after the experiment.

I originally though the diary was before the experiment, but after thinking about the OMADD key, I’ve switched to the ‘after experiment’ group of thought.

Congratulations, wookalar, for bringing up something so painfully obvious it hurts that we all overlooked it.

The very first line includes the first letter key of O for the password, so that, at the very least, much be post-going to the asura. Even if this was as Ceara and before the experiment, it was 2+years after Ceara had left the Grove to supposedly never return.

But given that it is for a password of her lab under the Priory, it has to be written after making said lab/lair and the console. Given that everything in it is modern-Scarlet based, it’s likely that the dairy is fairly recent, and certainly post-experiment.

The only counter to that would be “she altered the diary well after she wrote it.”

or “gameplay over story”. they needed to hide a password somewhere, somehow, and they wanted a lore dump journal. it’s not unusual to think the devs went with that.

gotta remember that you’re playing a game, and sometimes game design prevails story.

>.> yeah thanks wookalar, that was just far too intelligent for me xD.

The other possibility is of course that she wrote the diary knowing full well that we would find it, meaning that it would be written recently and that the information in it would need to be taken with a grain of salt.

oh and before i get called out as desperate or in denial for claiming the password is just a case of gameplay over story:

let’s say you need a password. you settle on the name of the most important person in your life (after you, because you’re an egocentric talking plant). you even have a picture of that person in your room, and you often play with that picture using throwing knives.

do you really need to write down the password? like, really?

alright, let’s say that despite being a genius in just about every area, you have the memory span of a goldfish.

would you slowly and carefully write the password as hints in your journal, through the course of several days/weeks/months?

‘cause the diary takes place in a really, really long span of time. and if it’s a story hint as you claim, then every now and then, scarlet would remember to capitalize a letter halfway through her traumatized report, and after weeks, if not months, she’d finally have the whole password written down in the most inconvenient reminder ever.

if she really needed to write the password, she wouldn’t have remembered to write it through her journal in the first place. and she would have done something more practical too. but it’s not like she needed to write the password, she’s not dumb to forget a password with 5 freaking letters, named after the teacher that made her who she is, the teacher whose picture is plastered on a wall with knives stuck on it.

but the devs needed a clever way for the players to find out the password to access the teaser pictures. they needed to gate those pictures behind something: a password. and they needed to hide that password somehow as well, so they came up with the idea of hiding the password in the journal they wrote as a reward for players that opened all 5 chests. that way, they promoted the current content (the marionette fight), rewarded the players with money (through items), lore information (through the journal), and if the player stopped for 5 seconds to think, they’d be able to find out the password and access the hidden teaser pictures, but only after completing this release’s content multiple times.

and there you have it. why the password bears no relevance on when the journal was written.

BrunoBRS.5178:

’cause the diary takes place in a really, really long span of time.

Source. All we have for timespan is that several nights happen between the first and second. This whole journal can easily take the course of a single month, or even half a week if Scarlet is a person like myself where even mere hours can feel slow when in the present.

Am i the only one got the pictures from her console BEFORE getting the journal lol? I clicked on the console and noticed the letters spelt out her teachers name (i somehow have a good memory when it comes to the names of Asura, god help me with any other name though) xD.

That being said i’m almost positive that the Password being in the Journal was likely due to being a gameplay thing. And if it isn’t i’m almost positive that said images we’re seeing are a Red Herring aka Bait for the players from Scarlet, i mean as Bruno said, she’s intelligent and unless she has the memory of a gold fish writing that down isn’t required at all.

Durzlla.6295:

Am i the only one got the pictures from her console BEFORE getting the journal lol? I clicked on the console and noticed the letters spelt out her teachers name (i somehow have a good memory when it comes to the names of Asura, god help me with any other name though) xD.

That being said i’m almost positive that the Password being in the Journal was likely due to being a gameplay thing. And if it isn’t i’m almost positive that said images we’re seeing are a Red Herring aka Bait for the players from Scarlet, i mean as Bruno said, she’s intelligent and unless she has the memory of a gold fish writing that down isn’t required at all.

If you got the console images before the Journal it was a glitch – obviously one that was patched. The console actually won’t let you use it until you’ve acquired all the pages from her Journal. It’s probable that when they first put the patch out this wasn’t the case and the first cluster of people to enter her Lair were able to use the console despite not having the pages.

wookalar.8952:

On the topic of ‘when’ the dairy was written, I haven’t seen anyone mention this:

She spells out a key for her console in the diary: OMADD. In my opinion, the diary had to at least been written after she met him. This kind of leans towards her writing the diary after the experiment.

I originally though the diary was before the experiment, but after thinking about the OMADD key, I’ve switched to the ‘after experiment’ group of thought.

Merciful Grenth, I feel stupid now for missing something so obvious. Well done Wookalar.