Guild Wars 2

So… I think Trahearne is going to die.

Let me explain. Trahearne was, as we all know, a big part of the Personal Storyline. And he was well-suited for it. A scholar of Orr, a Necromancer of formidable power who studied the undead, and a Valiant whose Wyld Hunt was the cleansing of the undead corruption. Well-known and respected by the Three Orders, he was the perfect figurehead to form and lead the pact against Zhaitan.
Except… with the fall of Zhaitan and the conclusion of his Wyld Hunt, every single one of these plot coupons has expired. The same traits that made him perfect to lead this campaign also, by definition, give him no real special qualities that make him a good choice for any other campaigns. To be blunt, the story no longer needs Trahearne.

On top of that, well, Mordremoth is about to get out of bed and go looking for breakfast. Now, if the implied connection between Mordremoth and the Sylvari turns out to be what it looks like, the Sylvari’s famous immunity to the Dragon Corruption might turn out to be not all it’s cracked up to be. Trahearne himself as a Firstborn might even turn out to be especially vulnerable to Mordremoth’s power.
Mordremoth also wants to flex its muscles a bit. With the defeat of Scarlet Briar, it’s time we saw a show of force from the Elder Dragon itself, and as we all know, the traditional way to do that is to find an In-Universe Hero and grind him into a fine paste. The Marshal of the Pact is one of the most famous and respected heroes in Tyria, and he also just so happens to be leading an alliance that exists to fight the Elder Dragons. Tactically speaking, Mordremoth has a lot to gain by going out of its way to squish him.

Also, and I hate to break the Fourth Wall, but it must be said… Trahearne’s had his popularity issues. Now speaking for myself, I liked the character and thought he was a vital part of the story. I thought it suited the story better with the player character not being the leader of the Pact and Trahearne filled the role well. But escorting him everywhere so that everyone in Tyria could compliment him for things that I’d done… even as one of his fans I’ll admit that there’s a faint whiff of the Mary Sue here.

Now none of this actually means anything yet, they’re just observations on the character, but this is where the twist kicks in. The sixth Elder Dragon is waking up. The Pact exists for the sole purpose of fighting the Elder Dragons. When Mordremoth starts to flex its muscles, the Pact is pretty much guaranteed to get involved because of course they are. As leader of the Pact, Trahearne is definitely going to be there.
In short, the Living World story can’t simply ignore the fact that he exists. The story absolutely has to do something with his character at some point in the near future. And as much as it pains me to say this as a fan of his, the best thing I can see his character doing at this point in the story is, well, dying.

There’s a lot of ways it could happen and I’ll refrain from speculating on those until the story unfolds further. There’s a lot of twists that could happen as a result of his death. Certainly the implications of Mordremoth’s awakening and the upcoming chapters of the Living Story have definitely got me interested and excited. But I just can’t shake the feeling that wherever the story goes… Trahearne’s role in it might just come to a short sharp stop.

Thoughts?

First off, No, people don’t give credit to Trahearne for your actions. I recently did the claw island-Arah part of the story and noticed how they heap a LOT of praise toward you, and actually little toward Trahearne outside a few instances which HE did something major personally.

Secondly, I think it’s bad storytelling to go “Oh, this guy served his roles, let’s just kill him off!”

Trahearne is still widely respected, and has grown into the leadership spot. If he was to die, the replacement would be.. hard to pull off because they’d have to gather respect of ALL three orders, and prove they can lead all three groups together on the field or as an army. And unless they make the player character that role, another person like that doesn’t exist.

At no point did I say that he was not widely respected, and I’m aware of the implications of his death, which is sort of the point. The Elder Dragons aren’t just mindless beasts, they are extremely intelligent. Trahearne is an excellent leader, and would be nearly impossible to replace, which is why killing him is an incredibly smart tactical move for Mordremoth to make.

I went out of my way to highlight that it’s not a matter of “Kill this guy because the plot no longer needs him!” I simply pointed out that the plot no longer specifically requires this character, because he’s played his strengths to the best possible ends. Having said that, I pointed out that while I like the character, it actually makes sense for him to fall in the coming campaign against Mordremoth.

You’re absolutely right that Trahearne is a widely respected hero and would be nearly impossible to replace as leader of the Pact.

And that is very specifically my point.

I agree with all of your points, Tipper, but I think it’ll mostly come down to rather ANet has finally gotten over their continuity headache with the personal story.

True. Hey, it could even be that the Living World will play out with Mordremoth’s awakening… at which point, rather than being limited content, the campaign against him will be added as an expansion of the Personal Storyline instead. Which would be cool!

Well the only issue is that how much value can Trahearne bring to the table in regards to Mordy? He was chosen to lead the pack for 2 reasons: 1 ) he was neutral but well respected by the factions, 2 ) he’s knowledge of Orr and Zhaitan. Since Mordy is a new enemy Trahearne would have no useful insights. Maybe since he proved himself against Zhaitan, he’ll stay but I don’t know.

Trahearne needs to die. Not because of some personal vendetta you, I, or anybody else might have against him, but because it would be the most narratively succinct and perfect way for Mordy to endcap a complete routing and shattering of the Pact.

Make no mistake, shattering the Pact would be the best possible thing ANet could do for the game’s story.

Take a look at this image-post for a far better thought out and skillfully written justification than I could ever write:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/143977/ThreePointsNumberTwo.jpg

It’s from Shriketalon.1937’s excellent thread “Narrative Lessons From 15 Months of Scarlet” which is sadly now buried deep in the lost halls of the “LA: Aftermath” LS subforum. You can find the original thread in full here…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Narrative-Lessons-From-15-Months-of-Scarlet/first

…and for posterity, here are the other two thirds of the “Three Points” post that “Pact Must Die” graphic is part of:
(1) https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/143976/ThreePointsNumberOne.jpg
(2) https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/143977/ThreePointsNumberTwo.jpg
(3) https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/143978/ThreePointsNumberThree.jpg

He also has another 5-part graphic article in his original post on that thread.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well the only issue is that how much value can Trahearne bring to the table in regards to Mordy? He was chosen to lead the pack for 2 reasons: 1 ) he was neutral but well respected by the factions, 2 ) he’s knowledge of Orr and Zhaitan. Since Mordy is a new enemy Trahearne would have no useful insights. Maybe since he proved himself against Zhaitan, he’ll stay but I don’t know.

This is treating it as if the moment you turn toward any other dragon minion Trahearne will start stuttering and going “IDUMMO WAT TO DO!” He’s a learned scholar, plus the three orders have experience with other dragon minions and he can get advice. Besides the fact a campaign against another dragon would see experts on that group brought in as well.

DaMunky.6302:

Trahearne needs to die. Not because of some personal vendetta you, I, or anybody else might have against him, but because it would be the most narratively succinct and perfect way for Mordy to endcap a complete routing and shattering of the Pact.

Make no mistake, shattering the Pact would be the best possible thing ANet could do for the game’s story.

As I’ve said before, such logic can easily lead into an endless (and BAD) cycle of “They go to fight next dragon. they get utterly defeated. They rebuild and come back stronger and beat the dragon.” until it gets stupid.

Mordi appearing and shattering the pact instantly and without effort is a bad move. Also, the Pact doesn’t fight that many people besides dragons… so it’s easy to say they only fight bad guys.

Hell, he seems to be complaining about the Pact being an “unstoppable force of good with huge backing and fights all the bad guys” yet the Pact featured ONCE in living story, and that was an airship arriving post battle of LA to investigate the rumors of Scarlet’s involvement with a dragon…

So tell me how the pact ruined the living story? Not once did the Pact charge forth to put an end to the evil events in living story.

Scarlet took LA briefly because she used Miasma and aerial bombardment to force the defenders to flee the city or die. Dragons could do the same thing. Only difference is the Risen were delayed by Claw Island, allowing a rally to hold the city. Scarlet bypassed the fort and attacked the city directly.

Kalavier.1097:

This is treating it as if the moment you turn toward any other dragon minion Trahearne will start stuttering and going “IDUMMO WAT TO DO!”

For someone who knows what to do he sure asked my opinion a lot.

I don’t think the Pact necessarily needs to be destroyed. There’s a reason that it was formed: It would not have been possible to kill Zhaitan without it. If you take that away, there’s… really no force in existence capable of matching the other Elder Dragons. That’s not promoting them to “Look Tough” or anything, that’s basically flushing Tyria down the drain. A simple band of adventurers is not capable of killing an Elder Dragon by themselves. Destiny’s Edge tried and failed, and even with Logan there’s no guarantee they’d have succeeded.

Now, what is true is that the Pact pretty much curb-stomped Zhaitan with a string of nearly flawless victories. It wasn’t easy, but their campaign was a big long success story marred by only a few notable losses of personnel. But we can actually justify this by the simple fact that nobody in all of history has ever challenged the Elder Dragons on this scale before. Zhaitan was utterly unprepared for such an organized, well-supported, full-scale attack on it, and that’s doubly true because Trahearne specifically led the Pact against it. Immune to the Corruption, a gifted Scholar of Orr, one of the most formidable Necromancers alive, and guided by the visions of the Pale Tree while wielding Caladbolg. Honestly, Zhaitan really didn’t stand much chance. So I can sort of see why the Pact might seem overpowered and boring from one perspective.

But none of that stuff is really relevant any more, is it?

The Elder Dragons are extremely intelligent, and they’re obviously going to be aware of the Pact and the fact that they slew Zhaitan. They will be much more careful, they will be much less likely to underestimate the Pact’s capability. And again, as ideally suited as Trahearne was to fight Zhaitan and the Risen of Orr, he no longer has specialized knowledge or skills that will be relevant against the other Dragons – let alone Mordremoth, who is a complete unknown.
What does make sense is that the Dragons would target the Pact specifically now, as a visible and significant threat to them. And considering how incredibly valuable Trahearne is, as a leader, a figurehead, and a symbol of unity – not to mention that the entire Pact is his fault anyway – he should be at the absolute top of the remaining Dragons’ Kill List.

I want to emphasise that I liked the character of Trahearne. I think he played a vital role in the story the player character could not, and he was believable as a scholar who got thrown into being a military leader and had to find his footing. I just acknowledge that he was a tiny bit of a Mary Sue in his infallibility and limitless knowledge, and that the player carries him through every one of his important victories. To me this is not a reason to want him dead, I still like him, but it did make him unpopular in some circles – and that’s not a complaint, just an observation that he is unpopular in some circles. So ArenaNet may want to shed an unpopular burden?
For me though it’s that Trahearne is not as vital to the story as he was. Zhaitan could not have been defeated without him. But the remaining Elder Dragons can be defeated without him, and it makes perfect sense in the story that they desperately want him dead. From a narrative perspective, it raises the stakes and deals the first real blow to the Pact since it was formed. From a character perspective, it gives closure to Trahearne’s story in a way that suits the continuing campaign. And he’s no longer as vital to the story as he was – he’s incredibly important to the Pact and all but impossible to replace, but his loss would not be a death blow to the alliance any more.

It’s not a matter of him having outlived his usefulness. It’s not a matter of killing him off for the sheer fun of it because he’s no longer a necessary plot device. Rather, it’s that the most valuable thing his character can do for the story at this point is to be killed – because that will push the story on further, even without him.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I agree with all of your points, Tipper, but I think it’ll mostly come down to rather ANet has finally gotten over their continuity headache with the personal story.

This just in….

Chronologically, the Season 2 story will take place after Season 1, which in turn occurs after your character’s personal story and the story of Zhaitan in Guild Wars 2. For dialogue purposes, NPCs in Season 2 will assume your character completed their personal story and Season 1, even if they did not. You do not need to complete the personal story on a character in order to play the Living World content, although it will make more sense if you do!

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-story-journal/

All of Season One has clearly been stated to take place after Personal Story and Season Two takes place after that. End of the debate.

Season Two will be heavily instanced from the sounds of it so timeline issues and permanence won’t be an issue. Old versions of maps and events can be preserved in the instances (hopefully retrofited to Lion’s Arch) and the permanent changes on the world can pass over to the Open World. As long as it’s nothing dramatic like the cleansing of Orr, there is a lot they can do to Tyria without causing too much disturbance in the timelines.

I agree with others here, Trahearne didn’t really take a lot of credit, his position as the central figure of the Orrian campaign was well earned because of his unique skills and knowledge. Who else in Tyria had his expertise in all things Orrian? At times he did delegate to those who knew better (the largos when it came to Abaddon’s temple, the Priest of Grenth when it came to contacting the reapers) but he was the central governing leader and his diplomatic position (well connected with the three Orders and many others across Tyria – largos, tengu etc, Trahearne’s travels have made him a very interesting individual and I hope we see those stories) had him well suited to unite the three Orders. The player always had a voice when he was around, they always made decisions and they were always recognised. It wasn’t like Kiel in Southsun or Dragonbash where she was the only one talking, the primary one being praised and the one calling all the shots. Hopefully the VAs of the player returning means this won’t be a problem with Kiel or anyone else going forward.

I do agree that perhaps he may not be the best suited for future dragon campaigns, but lets not forget he is now the only person in Tyria with experience successfully leading a united organisation as big as the Pact in a campaign against an Elder Dragon. His expertise with Orr won’t matter as much, but he knows how to fight a dragon, how to lead troops etc. It depends on how they choose to evolve him in future, but I think killing him at this point would be a mistake. If he does step aside and let a more military minded character lead the Pact (someone like Laranthir but hopefully more interesting, I wasn’t sold on Laranthir that much), I hope he stays around at least in a diplomacy role. I really think there are some interesting side stories to explore with him, especially when it comes to his link to individuals like the largos. It’s a pretty remarkable thing to explore and survive in Orr during the time of Zhaitan, the people he helped and worked with give Trahearne a lot of side story potential.

More than likely I think he will be like Jennah, the Pale Tree or one of the other racial leaders, technically they are the big wigs and in charge, but in the field you interact with Logan or some other senior officer. This allows the Pact to be a solid organisation but the story can use unique commanders and characters to tell the stories of different campaigns. Trahearne stays at HQ, but a charr commander calls the shots against the Branded, a norn commander leads to fight against Jormag etc. You still have your core leadership, your core senior officers (the three Order representatives, Laranthir) but the individual campaigns and related missions have all new sets of characters to deal with. To me that’s far more exciting story potential than constantly reusing the same characters over and over and it makes a lot of sense that an organisation like the Pact would function like that.

What I found interesting about the post is the mention of NPCs talking to you as if you’re done with Personal Story. That’s a solid stance to take and implies we will see at least some, possibly a lot of world progression relating to old characters and old plots this year.

CureForLiving.5360:

Kalavier.1097:

This is treating it as if the moment you turn toward any other dragon minion Trahearne will start stuttering and going “IDUMMO WAT TO DO!”

For someone who knows what to do he sure asked my opinion a lot.

That’s a problem?

Besides most of the time when he asked your opinion, it was more in a “Hm, we can get this objective completed in two ways, which way would you like to do it?”

Shiren.9532:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I agree with all of your points, Tipper, but I think it’ll mostly come down to rather ANet has finally gotten over their continuity headache with the personal story.

This just in….

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-story-journal/

FINALLY! And while we’re touching the topic, I’m thrilled that they at least touched upon making the Personal Story replayable, even if it was just they’re typical “not off the table” wording.

As far as Trahearne goes, my thoughts have previously been along the same lines as Shiren’s in regards to his future role. However, now that Mordremoth is on the table… IF they opt to have a real connection between Mordremoth and the sylvari, and IF they choose to start exploring that connection somewhat early on, instead of something they cram into a big reveal at the end of the road, then I think it could be fitting to use the eldest of the Firstborn, the very first sylvari, to do that exploration. And if it ends up killing him… as others have pointed out, ANet might see that as a two birds, one stone situation.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well the only issue is that how much value can Trahearne bring to the table in regards to Mordy? He was chosen to lead the pack for 2 reasons: 1 ) he was neutral but well respected by the factions, 2 ) he’s knowledge of Orr and Zhaitan. Since Mordy is a new enemy Trahearne would have no useful insights. Maybe since he proved himself against Zhaitan, he’ll stay but I don’t know.

On the other hand, who else should lead the Pact?

Tyria seems to lack competent leadership.

Someone with leadership ability and who’s reasonably well-known. Perhaps a member of the Council of Lion’s Arch? Failing that, someone new who’d be introduced before Trahearne needs replacing and prove themselves capable. A lot of people want the Tengu to become playable, one of them would be interesting…

Tipper.7354:

…someone new who’d be introduced before Trahearne needs replacing and prove themselves capable. A lot of people want the Tengu to become playable, one of them would be interesting…

I like this idea, that would be a great step to introducing Tengu race

That idea wouldn’t really work for one of the same reason people complained about Trahearne. “Who is this person? I don’t know him. He came out of nowhere!”

The Tengu had little to no contact since they have established the DoW. One popping out of the woodwork and taking the reins of an international military alliance would make no sense.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Shiren.9532:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I agree with all of your points, Tipper, but I think it’ll mostly come down to rather ANet has finally gotten over their continuity headache with the personal story.

This just in….

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-story-journal/

FINALLY! And while we’re touching the topic, I’m thrilled that they at least touched upon making the Personal Story replayable, even if it was just they’re typical “not off the table” wording.

Yeah, I would love to be able to repeat personal story steps. I really hope they can figure it out because it would be nice to be able to revisit some of those lore details. For all the praise I give GW:Beyond, one big flaw I had with it was it was only doable once.

I think it would be cool if they allowed us to choose different options (but still have our original choices act as the true ones). One of the things I loved about GW1 was playing through the campaign over and over. I watched every cut scene (even the Factions ones) every single time.

Oh yeah, this thread is about Trahearne, back on topic.

Erukk.1408:

That idea wouldn’t really work for one of the same reason people complained about Trahearne. “Who is this person? I don’t know him. He came out of nowhere!”

The Tengu had little to no contact since they have established the DoW. One popping out of the woodwork and taking the reins of an international military alliance would make no sense.

Oh, absolutely they couldn’t do it straight away. Part one of the Living Story Chapter Two shouldn’t be, “Trahearne dies, here’s a Tengu replacement.”
But… suppose we investigate Mordremoth’s awakening for a while, and a Tengu or two is introduced as Trahearne attempting to form allies. Doesn’t even have to be a raw recruit, they could simply be officers that were recruited during Living Story Chapter One, who you haven’t met yet. Trahearne and the Pact had to be doing something during the months that we now have it confirmed that Chapter One took place in following the defeat of Zhaitan. We could spend the entire Chapter getting to know the new officers before Trahearne is defeated, betrayed, killed by the Dragon, steps down from leadership voluntarily – Or if a popular theory pans out...Mordremoth's corruption could slowly turn him to the dark side before it kills him, or he turns evil and we kill him, or he kills himself to stop himself falling completely. At which point it would be a much less awkward transition, with the Tengu being an established character and a member of the Pact without ties to the Orders of Tyria.

For that matter, replace “Tengu” with any other race you’d like to see more of and it works as well. I’d like to see the Tengu explored more, so that’s what I’d enjoy, but it’s open for anything. And this is just a random suggestion off the top of my head, I’m sure the writers have considerably better ideas if it comes to that.

It would help a little bit if the Tengu character was a previously know character, but as I said before, the person, and the race as a whole, would really have no ties outside of the Pact.

Trahearne, while not know to (some of) the players, was still a major character in the world before we met him. It was one of the meaning reasons he fit the leadership role of the Pact.

• He was on good terms with the three Orders.
• He was a neutral figure.
• He was knowledgeable on the world as well as the enemy.
• And he probably has at least some political clout with the other player nations, being a Firstborn.

People have to remember that the Pact is an international military alliance, so its leader is a political role as well as militaristic one, and they have to maintain good relations with all the Orders and nations to work fully.

So if a Tengu replaced Trahearne, even if he’s well respected in the Pact, he/she would have nowhere near the ties and trust that Trehearne has. It doesn’t help matters at all that the Dominion of Wind has no ties with its surrounding nations. He/she would literally be a stranger from a land unknown to most people.

Does anyone think the whole Scarlet terrorism thing might make a negative impact on Trehearne as leader of the pact? I believe it was mentioned a few times that people are suddenly becoming a little suspicious of the Sylvari because of the whole mess, and that might make people less willing to look to the pact respectfully if it’s lead by a one. Just a thought. It might not happen.

People in LA*

It’s not really implied that people outside of Lion’s Arch look at Sylvari that way, and it’s just the grieving people in the city going to the easiest (but false) explanation.

Erukk.1408:

Trahearne, while not know to (some of) the players, was still a major character in the world before we met him. It was one of the meaning reasons he fit the leadership role of the Pact.

• He was on good terms with the three Orders.
• He was a neutral figure.
• He was knowledgeable on the world as well as the enemy.
• And he probably has at least some political clout with the other player nations, being a Firstborn.

People have to remember that the Pact is an international military alliance, so its leader is a political role as well as militaristic one, and they have to maintain good relations with all the Orders and nations to work fully.

All good points and obviously true, but it does raise the obvious question – if not Trahearne, who?

It would need to be someone who’s completely neutral for starters. No history with the Priory, Vigil or Order – they’re all struck out and that pretty much eliminates any existing, high-ranked Pact members from the original Personal Storyline. They’d also need to be completely politically neutral, which I think we can say rules out a Charr or a Human – their treaty is reasonably sound, but still has plenty of detractors, and placing one or the other as leader of the Pact would be awkward at best. And if Trahearne does fall, what with the mistrust caused by Scarlet Briar and especially if...there does turn out to be a connection between Mordremoth and the Sylvari race, I’m not sure there’s another Sylvari could possibly fill his shoes.

Eir Stegalkin could perhaps take over – I can’t see another member of Destiny’s Edge taking on the role, and she does have the leadership experience to boot – but she’s pretty much the only reasonable choice of existing characters.

But again, there’s been a big window of time passed with the Living World Chapter One story. It’s now officially canon that Scarlet Briar’s campaign completely took place following Zhaitan’s defeat, which gives us a minimum of 18 months in which the Pact has been solidifying its strength. Add to that however long Chapter Two will go on before the question of Trahearne’s replacement becomes an issue, and it could be two or more years that end up passing since the Pact’s victory in Orr.
With that timeline, it’s not just plausible but extremely likely that the Pact’s leadership has some new faces we haven’t met before. But even if we don’t know them, they could still be well-respected within the Pact itself, and with all the upcoming Living World Chapter Two content, we have at least as much time to get to know these new characters as we had to get to know Trahearne.

So, a new leader needs to be completely independent of any existing politics in Tyria, can’t be a member of the Three Orders, and ideally would have some sort of relevant skills or knowledge that would make them suited to leading a campaign either against a specific Elder Dragon or in a specific geographical region. It’s perfectly reasonable that they might not be someone we know yet, they could quite easily be a member of the Pact’s leadership, they have plenty of time to prove their worthiness as replacement Marshal before an actual need arises, and the whole point of the pact is that literally anyone can join, regardless of background, species or capabilities, so long as they’ll do their part in the battle against the Elder Dragons.

At this point a Tengu isn’t just plausible, it’s sensible.

Tipper.7354:

At this point a Tengu isn’t just plausible, it’s sensible.

The next leader of the Pact doesn’t have to be totally neutral. Trahearne’s neutrality is what allowed him to be able to start the Pact with the player. Him and the player acted at the neutral ground in which the Order could get over their previous conflicts and start to be able to work together. As long as the next leader can show he/she has a level head, some leadership qualities, and can act as a mediator between the different factions, it shouldn’t be too much of a problem for them taking the reins.

What I was repeatedly pointing out, with the Tengu being unknowns still and the leadership role being political as well, is that the Order leaders, as well as the nation leaders, need to trust whoever is in charge. They are giving their resources over to the Pact to use against the Elder Dragons in good faith, but that might change if someone they don’t even know, or even have a slightly bit of a clue about, takes over the Pact. How do they know that the new person is trustworthy or not?

Trahearne is known to everyone, and he is seen as trustworthy by most, if not all, the leaders.
Random Tengu, even if he is respected Pact member, would be totally unknown to the nation leaders.

True, but my point is that just because we as the player don’t necessarily know this potential Tengu character doesn’t mean that everybody else doesn’t know him. The Tengu may be isolationist, but at the same time they’re not mythical unicorns that nobody’s ever seen before. It’s perfectly reasonable that there would be Tengu ambassadors, travellers, military leaders and craftsmen who are well-known, or simply Tengu individuals that choose to live in Tyria for their own reasons.

Of course, you are right that a Pact leader doesn’t have to be 100% neutral now, but it would still be preferable if they were. And yes, a Tengu character would not necessarily be any better than any other race, obviously! I just… well, I think it’d be cool, and at the very least it’s quite plausible.

My first thought for a pact leader would have been the commodore of Lion’s Arch. He is not a military man, but the major goals “unite the world” and “fight the dragons” are here basically congruent . Both sides would profit somehow and Lion’s Arch would have Claw Island again in the hand of it’s own army. QuestionDid it really secretly swap from lionguard to pact during personal story and nobody cares?

The Tengu could, but won’t take over. At the moment there is a huge difference in the threat evaluation between us and the Tengu. That might be the reason why they are reserved and cannot simply take over without causing a lot of confusion. Trahearne had a lot of doubts during personal story and didn’t even join the final fight against the dragon, because he knows that there are some things that do not fit. He has still lot potential for further story and shouldn’t die after just half of his story is told.

The mentioning of Eir Stegalkin is an interesting catch. She fits the role and took over the role of Glint according to the Zephyrite teacher on board of their airship.

Tipper.7354:

At this point a Tengu isn’t just plausible, it’s sensible.

Only a single Tengu is known to us to be in the Pact, and he’s a SMITH.

Plus what information would the Tengu have on the Maguuma wastes and jungle? Or the Crystal desert… or the far shiverpeaks or the depths of Tyria?

I don’t see how it’s sensible… or maybe even plausible for the most part.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

My first thought for a pact leader would have been the commodore of Lion’s Arch. He is not a military man, but the major goals “unite the world” and “fight the dragons” are here basically congruent . Both sides would profit somehow and Lion’s Arch would have Claw Island again in the hand of it’s own army. QuestionDid it really secretly swap from lionguard to pact during personal story and nobody cares?

It never swapped to Pact… they just retook the island from the Risen. It never, ever was hinted they took over the fort permanently.

Personally…

I don’t really view the first assumption as valid. Trahearne achieved the conditions needed for Orr’s cleansing to occur and he’s arguably achieved the hard part, but the remaining Risen still need to be cleaned out, the land has to fully recover, and the question of Orr’s political future still needs to be determined. If ArenaNet never returns to Orr, they’re potentially losing at least another year or so’s worth of potential plot threads, where it would probably be useful to the story to have Trahearne around (even if it is so he can be killed as part of the Orr-related content. Thus, I don’t think it’s actually time to throw him under the proverbial bus just yet.

Thing is, though, a lot of the reasons why he was made leader of the Pact don’t really apply to the Mordremoth theater. He has no special expertise like he had with Zhaitan, and his Wyld Hunt is/was with Orr. Furthermore, at the start of the PS, the orders distrusted one another, but winning as important a battle as killing an Elder Dragon could easily have ameliorated this distrust enough that members of one order would be willing to place themselves at the disposal of a higher-ranking member of another – particularly if someone neutral but respected by all remains in overall command to step on any abuses of power that do occur.

As a result of this, I consider it entirely possible that Trahearne simply won’t be more than an aside in the Mordremoth theater, and somebody else, who might be a member of an order, will have overall responsibility for the Mordremoth theater. Depending on what ArenaNet considers appropriate, this might even be the PC.

Kalavier.1097:

Only a single Tengu is known to us to be in the Pact, and he’s a SMITH.

Plus what information would the Tengu have on the Maguuma wastes and jungle? Or the Crystal desert… or the far shiverpeaks or the depths of Tyria?

I don’t see how it’s sensible… or maybe even plausible for the most part.

Well, I should specify that I meant “More sensible than, say, an ex-Blood Charr from the Vigil, who would be a politically awkward choice.” A Tengu isn’t objectively better simply by virtue of being a Tengu, but one would lack certain disadvantages that some other races might have. But yeah, that was badly phrased on my part, sorry.

As for the Tengu Smith, sure, we know him. But I can only repeat it so many times – it is not necessarily true that our player will know every Tengu in Tyria. The better part of two years has passed since we last checked in with the Pact. Even if we personally knew every single Pact soldier at the time of Zhaitan’s defeat (which would be absurd), and we were 100% sure there was only one Tengu in the entire alliance (which we are not), that was still two years ago.
In the time since Zhaitan’s fall, anyone could have joined the Pact from any race. If they also had some leadership experience or valuable knowledge, it’s perfectly reasonable they’d be given at least a minor leadership position, and they’ve had two years to prove their worth. When the story starts up again, they’ll have even more time to prove themselves as leadership material – remember, Trahearne had zero military or leadership experience when he was appointed Marshal. All he had was relevant knowledge and the respect of the Order heads, and this hypothetical newcomer has had plenty of time to earn both of those.

And regarding what the Tengu know… that’s the point, we have no idea what they know. They know about the Elder Dragons, and their cycles of awakening. They live along the Tarnished Coast, which means they almost certainly had to deal with Risen and Destroyers, and their city at the very least borders on the Maguuma Jungle, which means the TriWurm and other such events wouldn’t have gone unnoticed by them.
The awakening of the Dragons and the chaos it’s spawned forced the five main nations of Tyria to band together for sheer survival; the Tengu, supposedly a lesser nation, is doing just fine on its own. So while we don’t know what skills, lore or power the Tengu have… they must have something or they’d have been wiped out or forced to relocate by now, like the Skritt or the Quaggans or the Hylek or any number of lesser races. The fact they held their ground must count for something.

When all’s said and done, I agree a Tengu isn’t necessarily a better choice simply by virtue of being a Tengu. What I am saying is that I think it’d be cool, and there’s no reason why not!

I’d always thought that the most sensible way to deal with the Pact for season 2 was to have Trahearne assassinated (or otherwise removed) and the Pact dissolve. Having the Pact available to fight all the future Dragons was always going to get in the way of adventuring story lines.

And adventurers cannot hope to fight the dragons…

Yeah, that’s literally the point of the Personal Story – without an army as organized, well-supported, and diverse as the Pact, there was absolutely zero chance of taking down Zhaitan. The Pact was absolutely necessary.
Killing, retiring, or otherwise taking Trahearne out of command is one thing, but ending the Pact itself essentially dooms Tyria. The remaining five Elder Dragons aren’t suddenly weaker now that Zhaitan is dead. We need the Pact.

The Pact being destroyed at the beginning of a new arc because of a new BIG BAD (Morde, not saying he’s a cliche but using him in this way would make him more cliche) is a terrible cliche. Please don’t listen to this, Anet.

There’s no reason for the Pact to dissolve just because its leader dies. First off there is the PC/Commander who is there. If the 3 orders have some in fighting if Trahearne died then that’d be another huge cliche. Terrible idea.

Mr Mango.3504:

The Pact being destroyed at the beginning of a new arc because of a new BIG BAD (Morde, not saying he’s a cliche but using him in this way would make him more cliche) is a terrible cliche. Please don’t listen to this, Anet.

Well ANet would be skirting with the worf effect. Still a strong introduction is still in my mind a must.

Now that they’ve announced that Living Story 2 will continue from after the end of the Personal Story, Trahearne has to make some appearance surely? I’m guessing it will take us longer than we expect to prove that a new dragon has arrived, so the Pact will not turn up immediately, and Trahearne will want to stay in Orr anyway.

CureForLiving.5360:

Mr Mango.3504:

The Pact being destroyed at the beginning of a new arc because of a new BIG BAD (Morde, not saying he’s a cliche but using him in this way would make him more cliche) is a terrible cliche. Please don’t listen to this, Anet.

Well ANet would be skirting with the worf effect. Still a strong introduction is still in my mind a must.

The problem is how it can easily, VERY EASILY turn into a “We face a new dragon, entire Pact is destroyed/disbanded from defeat and scattering. Then we regroup, come back stronger and defeat the dragon!” happening for EACH elder dragon. That’s very bad. Also the fact Pact being utterly defeated or scattered would be a huge morale blow in universe and possibly to players, which would be bad.

A strong introduction is fine. IMO, if they say had the commander lead a GROUP of the Pact to the new dragon’s awakening, hoping to kill it before it rises fully, and that group gets destroyed and the commander (aka player) sees a dragon rising firsthand, and escapes with the survivors.

That’s fine. The entire Pact being defeated? nope.

Stooperdale.3560:

Now that they’ve announced that Living Story 2 will continue from after the end of the Personal Story, Trahearne has to make some appearance surely? I’m guessing it will take us longer than we expect to prove that a new dragon has arrived, so the Pact will not turn up immediately, and Trahearne will want to stay in Orr anyway.

Living story season 1 took place after personal story… Pact/Trahearne will show up when we deal with dragons.

“Living story season 1 took place after personal story”

98% of Living Story 1 was written to have a deliberately ambigious time setting.

Living story EXPLICITLY starts after personal story. Anet has said this, timeline says this. Hell, they’ve explicitly said that in the lore forums before.

Is was written to deliberately avoid the Personal Story like it was the plague, but that was for the sake of casuals and newbies, not to obscure its placement on the timeline.

“Living story EXPLICITLY starts after personal story. Anet has said this, timeline says this. "

Except that it wasn’t true for anyone who actually played the game! Each character created their own time sequence through the ambiguity written into the game. They could not create their own continuity errors. Anet are saying for LS2 that there is no ambiguity and every character who starts LS2 before finishing the personal story will see continuity errors.

Besides the fact they explicitly state it as such?

Chronologically, the Season 2 story will take place after Season 1, which in turn occurs after your character’s personal story and the story of Zhaitan in Guild Wars 2.

Directly from the blog post. Aka, exactly what we’ve been stating.

1325 AE, start of personal story.
1326 AE, start of living story season 1
1327 AE, end of living story season 1.

I don’t think I would like seeing the Pact destroyed by an Elder Dragon. Humbled maybe, but outright destroyed? No. We don’t need to see an Elder Dragon have a complete victory against the Pact to show them as a threat. We just need to show them have a victory, and that there are consequences to us losing. Bad consequences.

While it might be somewhat understandable given the circumstances, if you actually knew what was all going on during the lead up to the fight, Zhaitan was shown to the players to be an easy win. We just fought our way too him, and we killed/defeated a global threat with the pressing of a single button. It makes it look way too easy.

If they want to show us that the Elder Dragons are a threat, they can have the player join in a Pact assault against one, and they can have the Pact lose the fight. Horribly if need be. Afterwards, they can show in the next couple of chapters of the LS: the ED expanding its territory, launching counterassaults, and possibly changing the terrain a bit, and adding to the events of an area.

They tried this a bit in the PS, with the battle of Claw Island, but that was too isolated to really make an impact in the rest of Tyria. It was an island that the player only visited for those missions, and when the Risen pressed the attack and assaulted LA, it didn’t change anything. Once you exit the mission, you’re back to the bustling city with children running underfoot, and there isn’t a hair out of place damage wise.

At least when Scarlet attacked the city, she destroyed it, and it stayed destroyed. It’s those types of changed that make much more of an impact in the story. Or as many like to sum it up as, “Show, don’t tell.”

Kalavier.1097:

A strong introduction is fine. IMO, if they say had the commander lead a GROUP of the Pact to the new dragon’s awakening, hoping to kill it before it rises fully, and that group gets destroyed and the commander (aka player) sees a dragon rising firsthand, and escapes with the survivors.

Well a bit of back and forth would be nice for a change. Although the PS was suppose to portray a up hill battle against Zhaitan, practically we tended to end each PS instance with a resounding victory. Small defeats would be nice, even perhaps the pack teetering on defeat (a better climax than the PS story where Zhaitan was pretty much already beaten and we were just busy hammering the last nail into his coffin).

There is absolutely zero ambiguity: it’s been stated in-game, out-of-game, in all forms of the lore, everything. The Personal Storyline ends, then it’s Living World Chapter One an undisclosed amount of time after that, and now we’re leading into Living World Chapter Two. We don’t know exactly how long the gap is, and how far back Scarlet Briar’s history goes in the timeline alongside the Personal Story, but the first playable part of her narrative (Molten Alliance) is very specifically stated to have happened after the defeat of Zhaitan.

If the attack of the Molten Alliance happened the day after Zhaitan’s fall, and time in-game moves at the same pace as real-world time, then the last time we as players interacted with Trahearne and the Pact in any plot-relevant way will have been a year and a half before the start of Chapter Two. That’s absolute minimum. If time in Tyria moves faster for the sake of plot, or if there was a gap between Zhaitan’s fall and the Molten Alliance forming – both of which are almost certainly true – then we can easily say it’s been two years or more.

Considering this, we have no idea what the Pact has been doing for all this time, where they’ve been fighting, or what the current leadership looks like. Hell, we’re even making assumptions by saying that Trahearne is still the Marshal. At best we’re making educated guesses about everything. But if Living World Chapter Two is going to involve the rise of Mordremoth, or any other dragon, we have to assume the Pact is going to show up, and that we’re going to see Trahearne again.
Absolutely everything else is uncertain at this point. That’s why making theories are fun!

EDIT: Gah, got kitten’d on the qualifier “big” before the word “assumption”. Annoying.

Sure, we know the LS is set after the PS now, but when it first came out, they were tippy toeing around the subject. It confused everyone for a long time, and we really didn’t get full confirmation on the subject until the LS that introduced the marionette fight. (I can’t remember the LS’s name.)

And yes, we do have confirmation that Trahearne is still the Pact’s Marshall. Laranthir of the Wild said he had to get his permission to take an airship to LA, and that he only permission once word got out that Scarlet’s target was an Elder Dragon. That was during the s1 epilogue.

While that’s true, regardless of what confusion there once was, it’s been cleared up in the bluntest way there is, and at this point trying to claim ambiguity in the timeline is impossible. It’s basically a guy standing on a river bank, wanting to cross to the other side, and refusing to use the newly-built bridge ten feet away because it wasn’t there six months ago. There’s not even plotholes or continuity errors caused by this resolution, it’s just cleared up an issue as simply as possible.

Good to get confirmation on Trahearne still being Marshall, though. It pretty much guarantees he’ll play a role in the upcoming Chapter Two. It’s just a question of what that role will be…

ArenaNet has flip-flopped on the timeline of LS1 and the Personal Story a couple of times. Lost Shores was explicitly set after Zhaitan’s fall – the only reason the area (so close to Orr) was relatively safe for either the karka or the Consortium was because Zhaitan had been defeated and the Risen were much less of a threat outside of Orr and its environs as a result. Sometime during LS1, they shifted tack and came up with a concept of the two being chronologically accurate regardless of where in the PS the character is at – so if the character has killed Zhaitan the current LS arc happens after Zhaitan’s death, if the character hasn’t gone any further than the tutorial step, then the whole PS happens after the current LS arc (it’s unclear at which point this flip happened, but there was a lot of discussion about this point around when the Tequatl update hit, with a few ArenaNet representatives pointing out that while it had been said out-of-game that Lost Shores was post-Zhaitan, it was never said in-game and thus wasn’t primary canon). While an interesting idea in theory, it was untenable for a number of reasons that it would be impolite to repeat since that policy has been dropped – the policy now is back to LS1 happening entirely after the Personal Story.

It’s great that they’ve reconsidered and reverted to LS1 being post-Zhaitan, but there were certainly points during LS1 where ArenaNet was saying the chronology was a little… fuzzier.

Tipper.7354:

If the attack of the Molten Alliance happened the day after Zhaitan’s fall, and time in-game moves at the same pace as real-world time, then the last time we as players interacted with Trahearne and the Pact in any plot-relevant way will have been a year and a half before the start of Chapter Two. That’s absolute minimum. If time in Tyria moves faster for the sake of plot, or if there was a gap between Zhaitan’s fall and the Molten Alliance forming – both of which are almost certainly true – then we can easily say it’s been two years or more.

Considering this, we have no idea what the Pact has been doing for all this time, where they’ve been fighting, or what the current leadership looks like. Hell, we’re even making assumptions by saying that Trahearne is still the Marshal. At best we’re making educated guesses about everything. But if Living World Chapter Two is going to involve the rise of Mordremoth, or any other dragon, we have to assume the Pact is going to show up, and that we’re going to see Trahearne again.
Absolutely everything else is uncertain at this point. That’s why making theories are fun!

Well, event time doesn’t match real time. For example, the marionette fight happened ONCE. not the hourly event every day for two weeks. Likewise the battle of LA (escape and battle parts) only took place ONCE…Which is why the idea of LA being sieged for “weeks” (as wiki says) is very, very silly.

So we can assume some events take place over certain timeframes, but others are much shorter.

Also, I believe on these forums, but somewhere Anet confirmed post personal story (and during the living story) the Pact has been focused on rebuilding and resupplying it’s forces, and planning the next dragon campaign (alongside working to continue clearing Orr of course). Also I think Laranthir of the Wild mentions Trahearne being in charge when he was at LA.

ArenaNet has flip-flopped on the timeline of LS1 and the Personal Story a couple of times. Sometime during LS1, they shifted tack and came up with a concept of the two being chronologically accurate regardless of where in the PS the character is at

It’s great that they’ve reconsidered and reverted to LS1 being post-Zhaitan, but there were certainly points during LS1 where ArenaNet was saying the chronology was a little… fuzzier.

IIRC the devpost here correctly, they never flip flopped on the timeline. They simply made the biconics (Braham, Marjory, etc) and events of living story be seperate from personal story, so you wouldn’t run into the issue of say, somebody working with Logan (new human character), then doing a personal story instance with Logan mentioning how they had killed zhaitan.

As somebody else said, they just made the two stay apart.

Kalavier.1097:

Well, event time doesn’t match real time. For example, the marionette fight happened ONCE. not the hourly event every day for two weeks. Likewise the battle of LA (escape and battle parts) only took place ONCE…Which is why the idea of LA being sieged for “weeks” (as wiki says) is very, very silly.

So we can assume some events take place over certain timeframes, but others are much shorter.

True, I’m sure the invasion of Lion’s Arch didn’t involve desperately evacuating citizens for a full month. Though the Marionette was a weapons test, and it does make sense that Scarlet would test it more than once, and it could simply be that Lion’s Arch was taken and then held by the Miasma and Scarlet’s forces for weeks, and the dynamic events simply focused on the more interesting playable parts of that. But yes, the timeline almost certainly doesn’t go 1-1 for every event.
Still, at the same time it is silly to assume that the events happened in anything resembling a short time frame. At the very least, Wintersday and Halloween both happened in the meantime, and we didn’t jump from Molten Alliance to Toxic Alliance to Tower of Nightmares to the Invasion all in the space of a week or a month. If we assume that some events went faster and others went slower, then we could reasonable average it out to say that the real-world timeframe of 18 months is pretty close to the in-game timeframe. And I’d still argue that if it’s not an exact comparison, it’s much more likely to have been longer in-game than it was real-world.

Like I said, they explicitly stated around the Tequatl release that whatever story step the character was on was, for that character, happening simultaneously with the current Living Story step. The context was when a number of players were surprised to received Living Story-related mail indicating that Zhaitan was still alive in the Tequatl update, late in Season 1.

I really don’t want to have to go through red posts dating back several months to demonstrate it, but the flip-flops happened, and there was a major controversy over it that lasted for months and was a major point of discussion in the Collaborative Development threads around the end of last year. They’ve now, wisely, decided to clear it up and revert to a coherent timeline.

The timeline probably now says that Rox participated in Tequatl’s destruction roughly a year after Zhaitan’s, but there was a period where it was official policy that whether Rox participated in Tequatl’s destruction before or after Zhaitan fell depended on what stage of the PS your character happened to be late last year.