Guild Wars 2

This thread is exactly what it says on the tin: a discussion of the properties, origin, nature, and purposes of the Elder Dragons.

What we know:

• They are the size of a small continent
• They are not strictly reptilian — skeletal, mineral, and perhaps even plant-like dragons are present
• They conform to the typical Western dragon archetype (six limbs: four legs, two wings)
• They appear as vertebrates, though whether or not the vertebrae do the same things they do in typical vertebrates (conduct nerve impulses) is unknown — they might not have any conventional anatomical analogs
• I’ve heard they eat magic, making technology the most efficient mechanism to deal with them
• Their breath profoundly twists the surrounding landscape
• They designate champions, some of which can acquire (or are given) free will
• Lore indicates that they were put to sleep because the previous civilization could not defeat them

Of course, this still leaves us with some profound lacks of information with regard to their motives, personality, and origin.

As an example: some of you may be familiar with an old-school J-RPG known as Chrono Cross. This game, too, had six rather-important dragons (though quite not so large as the Elder Dragons), each associated with an element (earth, air, fire, water, light, and shadow). Each one had its own personality and appearance: the water dragon looked like a large amphibian; the earth dragon had features reminiscent of a worm; the sky dragon had feathers. All six were scattered around the world between two different dimensions. As it turns out… ...each dragon represents one-sixth of the Dragon God, a biomechanical nature control system designed by the highly advanced Reptite denizens of a utopian alternate timeline in which the Reptites did *not* go extinct 65 million years ago; the Reptite civilization, including the Dragon God, was drawn into the Chrono Cross dimension to compensate for the introduction of a foreign object (the Chronopolis time lab, which had been sent back in time from the distant future during a failed time experiment) so early in the time stream; the Reptites warred with the high-tech denizens of Chronopolis and were eventually defeated. A supercomputer called FATE used the power of an artifact called the Frozen Flame (itself the scale of a monstrously powerful planetary parasite called Lavos, defeated in the prequel, Chrono Trigger, the events of which actually set Chrono Cross in motion by screwing up the time stream) to break the Dragon God into six pieces; later, the protagonists break FATE's control of the Frozen Flame, permitting the Dragon God to reunite... which was the Dragon God's plan all along. Believe it or not, that is a subplot.

My point is, there is room to explore the Elder Dragons further.

• Are the Elder Dragons biologically active, or are they magical constructs? If the latter: do they consume magic to keep themselves active? Does their life cycle correspond with sufficient the presence of sufficient magic to sustain them? If so, could the Gods of Tyria, in gifting magic to mortals, have contributed to the awakening of the Elder Dragons?
• Were they born or made? Are they a natural phenomena, or a deliberately constructed agent?
• Are they from Tyria, or are they extraterrestrial in origin?
• Is their ability to consume magic a selection mechanism to determine whether or not the denizens of Tyria are fit to survive? I mean, against the Elder Dragons, you only have a chance of winning if you have both high technology and the ability to cast aside petty differences and squabbles; consequently, the Elder Dragons might very well be a test to determine whether or not the denizens of Tyria are capable of both banding together and utilizing high technology for a common goal (as opposed to using technology to kill or subdue one another)
• What is the relationship between the Dragons, the Gods of Tyria (which were a tangible presence in the original Guild Wars), and the ancient giants (Giganticus lupicus)?
• What do the Elder Dragons think? Are they self-aware? Do they have plots and plans? Or are they automatons, mindlessly pursuing some mysterious objective?
• If the Elder Dragons do think, are their thoughts comprehensible to mortals, or are they wholly eldritch creatures, far beyond mortal ken?
• Does their ability to change their surroundings indicate that their purpose might be to stir things up, from an evolutionary perspective? To basically generate punctuated equilibrium, wherein a wide variety of new and diverse species appears rapidly, as though out of nowhere?

Discuss.

Well from what we learned when we reached Orr the Elder dragons goal so far is to devour all magic in the world. They have a mind and seems have the ability to be reasoned with but they seem to attack the other races and use them as minions because they see us as tools they can use to help gather more magic to eat and once they are done with all magic in the world the only magic left is in us so they most likely plan to devour all life as their last meal before going to sleep again until more magic returns to devour and new life to be used have returned to the world.

Only questions left for me is why do they only desire to eat only magic and why do they have this superiority complex over all life in the world.

They’re described as forces of nature, albeit possessing some level of sapience. They existed long before the giants, before the gods, even. They are akin to a primal forces, kinda skewing them into true neutral since we don’t why they seem to fight and destroy other than to just consume more magic and stay alive. They claim “territory” and use their champions to defend it and command their minions, which hints at evil, or maybe just that they’re influence over the land they reside in is so powerful that their will is passively exerted onto the populous, whether done on purpose or not. But then again, Zhaitan seems to be actively trying to destroy Tyria, but what’s not to say he’s just desperate for a big ol’ magic feast? There’s alot about the EDs we don’t know yet.

They are the size of a small continent

Ah… Nope? The biggest one we’ve seen so far was maybe Kralkatorrik and he was just a large mountain/couple of mountains in size.

Definitely not in continent range.

They conform to the typical Western dragon archetype (six limbs: four legs, two wings)

Zhaitan is more like … dragons stuck together into a massive undead dragon-esque… thing. And he’s the only one we’ve actually seen so far.

http://www.theroundtablet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/gw2-zhaitan-the-undead-dragon.jpg

He’s quite nasty.

They designate champions, some of which can acquire (or are given) free will

Glint was given free will by outside influences, and was killed for it. And as far as we know, the people that accomplished giving Glint free will are long dead and gone.

Lore indicates that they were put to sleep because the previous civilization could not defeat them

They went to sleep of their own volition because they’d eaten and destroyed everything they could find.

Are the Elder Dragons biologically active, or are they magical constructs? If the latter: do they consume magic to keep themselves active? Does their life cycle correspond with sufficient the presence of sufficient magic to sustain them? If so, could the Gods of Tyria, in gifting magic to mortals, have contributed to the awakening of the Elder Dragons?

They seem to be some kind of amalgamation between the two. Starving Zhaitan of his magical ‘food’ which he actually eats through a "Mouth of Zhaitan" completely separate from his body, which lends more to the idea that they're not really biological sufficiently weakens him to allow him to be attacked.

And it more seems like that they awoke simply… because. And that they all wake around the same time.

Is their ability to consume magic a selection mechanism etc…

It more seems like that’s just how they eat.

What is the relationship between the Dragons, the Gods of Tyria (which were a tangible presence in the original Guild Wars), and the ancient giants (Giganticus lupicus)?

Probably nothing. The Gods showed up after the Dragons were defeated last time, Humans in tow, and well after the giants seemed to have disappeared.

What do the Elder Dragons think? Are they self-aware? Do they have plots and plans? Or are they automatons, mindlessly pursuing some mysterious objective?

ANet has essentially stated that they exist to eat, destroy, make more minions, and fight each other. They don’t seem to have plans or goals.

Does their ability to change their surroundings indicate that their purpose might be to stir things up, from an evolutionary perspective? To basically generate punctuated equilibrium, wherein a wide variety of new and diverse species appears rapidly, as though out of nowhere?

Their corruption is… corruption. It doesn’t create new things, it alters that which is already there. And they don’t reproduce(other than by creating more of the same) so any changes they DID make would just die out over time from simple attrition.

They’re described as forces of nature, albeit possessing some level of sapience.

They’re described as akin to forces of nature, inasmuch as they don’t plan, they just destroy things. Not that they actually ARE forces of nature.

The size of a small continent is overblowing it. Kralkatorik was mistaken for some mountains and they are huge but not the size of landmasses.

I think that fundimentally all Elder Dragons are reptilian but so effected by the powers they hold it effects their physical form. Infact we know that at least Kralkatorik can change his physical form into a sandstorm. The reason I have this conclusion comes from Destiny’s Edge where we get a chance to look inside Kralkatorik’s mind from Snaff’s veiwpoint. Under all the chaotic, raging emotion and hunger was fundimentally a reptilian mind. A giant, winged, intelligent reptilian mind but a reptilian mind never the less.

They make me think of huge, powerful, magical junkies that dont give a kitten about anyone else. This is speculation though. Im guessing their origins could have been from many sources.

The magical energy a living dragon lets off is fundimentally corrupting. Its not only the breath. We see side effects from Inquest experiments resulting in dragon corruption and we see artifacts that are cursed to corrupt those who carry or touch them.

As far as I know lore suggest they fell asleep rather than were forced to sleep.

The human Gods arrived after the Dragons had gone to sleep. I have a feeling the reason for the Gods coming and bringing humans to Tyria has its whole independent story. It does seem likely that the Gods were aware of the EDs. Why they didnt directly act against the sleeping Dragons is anyones guess. We do know that the EDs and the Gods dont seem freindly with each other.

Its very likely the reason the Gods are sitting this out is because if the EDs beat a God and consumed it the result would be catastrophic. EDs gain power the more magic they eat.

Giganticus Lupicus was one of the races from the last cycle that didnt make it.

As to their origin, I think its still far too much in the air for a clear theory. My personal one is that they were a race that either made themselves or were made into their current form. Perhaps the reason we dont see many other dragons that arent minions around is because they were the first victims of the EDs hunger. I guess we will have to wait and see if there are any dragons not tied to the EDs.

Seeing some other dragons would be kind of interesting, if they go with EDs being supercharged normal dragons of some kind.

Could fill the “Bad guy gone good” niche people keep trying to fit the Sylvari into.

The Elder Dragons were a reference to Chrono Cross and I didn’t notice it yet? facepalm

Next you know Lavos will appear from the depths of the earth? (Or worse, Deus from Xenogears crash-lands on Tyria?)

The Elder Dragons were a reference to Chrono Cross and I didn’t notice it yet? facepalm
Next you know Lavos will appear from the depths of the earth? (Or worse, Deus from Xenogears crash-lands on Tyria?)

They’re not a reference, he was just pointing out some of the similarities.

Hmm… If the Elder Dragons are really akin to forces of nature, then what are the consequences of taking a “force of nature” out of the equation? Perhaps defeating Zhaitan will in turn empower the other dragons, making them stronger in its absence?

Also, from what I have gathered from the game and books, the Elder Dragons do appear to be “magical” beings, or maybe a better term would be beings which transcend biology/physical laws. They also do, as was previously stated, to “feed” off of magical artifacts/magic. So perhaps they are, in a way similar to the forces of nature, but instead “forces” of magic/transcendental beings, which are factors in the “equation” or “equilibrium” of the world? If so, their purpose may be simply to balance the world and keep a semblance of homeostasis in the world. Their motivations may even be incomprehensible to themselves, just as the ocean is not necessarily “aware” of itself or its purpose, but rather interacts with the world in the form of physics.

If they really are the magical counterparts of the forces of nature, their purpose may be simply to balance out the magic in the world, which does appear to be spontaneously created, in a way inconsistent with the real world concept of the conservation of matter and energy. They may just be a way of nature maintaining an equilibrium of magic; their consumption of magic and then cyclic “sleep” simply a way of taking the excess magic out of the equation.

Of course all of this is conjecture and hypothesis and may very well be completely wrong, but, to me at least, it seems the most logical answer.

Hmm… If the Elder Dragons are really akin to forces of nature, then what are the consequences of taking a “force of nature” out of the equation? Perhaps defeating Zhaitan will in turn empower the other dragons, making them stronger in its absence?

Well, they’re not forces of nature. They’re dangerous, they screw kitten up, and they leave, they don’t plan or scheme. Just like a hurricane would.

So taking one out of the equation MIGHT strengthen the others just from lack of competition, but they’re so disparate right now I really doubt it.

So perhaps they are, in a way similar to the forces of nature, but instead “forces” of magic/transcendental beings, which are factors in the “equation” or “equilibrium” of the world?

I really doubt. You’re really taking the ‘force of nature’ thing too far, when they’re not really the same. See my explanation above.

If so, their purpose may be simply to balance the world and keep a semblance of homeostasis in the world. Their motivations may even be incomprehensible to themselves, just as the ocean is not necessarily “aware” of itself or its purpose, but rather interacts with the world in the form of physics.

That… is a stretch. I really doubt that, because they essentially almost wiped out the world before, and only went to sleep when everyone hid and they ran out of things to eat.

If they really are the magical counterparts of the forces of nature, their purpose may be simply to balance out the magic in the world, which does appear to be spontaneously created, in a way inconsistent with the real world concept of the conservation of matter and energy. They may just be a way of nature maintaining an equilibrium of magic; their consumption of magic and then cyclic “sleep” simply a way of taking the excess magic out of the equation.

That just seems a huge stretch, and I really doubt it. They just eat and eat and eat, regardless of any sort of balance, since they would rather eat everything and almost did before.

The only reason that they didn’t before was because everyone hid.

There’s no balance in eating everything.

When I use the term “force of nature”, I mean it in a symbolic, conceptual sense. Not in a literal sense of the phrase.

It seems like we have two very different approaches to this, mine being more of a “grand scheme of things”, and yours being more of a direct line of reasoning from the perspective of say a denizen of Tyria. Neither of which is a bad way of looking at things, just different.

It’s good discussion, and definitely interesting to think about. Unfortunately, I think we need a few more pieces of the puzzle to figure it all out.

True.

I just guess I’m sticking to the idea that ANet’s presented rather than trying to come up with anything new, which in itself isn’t bad I suppose.

They’ve outright described the Elder Dragons as being… I guess, animals, but really strong and powerful animals. They have urges, they need to eat, they want to destroy things and all that nonsense, but they don’t plan or anything like that.

Instinctual is a good word.

They might be harvesters (A little bit like Reapers in Mass Effect), eating almost everything, leaving scraps alive and going to sleep for another cycle.

With that wild speculation of of the way… Tome of Rubicon. The ancient book of the dwarwes, written by the Great Dwarf before the arrival of human gods. It told of the battle against the Great Destroyer, who was later found to be a champion of Primordus. It also told of it’s second coming and the last battle of dwarwes. That happened, too. Zhaitan is seeking out the book, because it contained information on how the Elder Dragons were stopped before. From all that, we can gather that the Elder Dragons were to awaken ages ago, but were stopped, put back to sleep. My theory is that the dragon champions scout out Tyria for their masters before their awakening, seeing if the world is ripe for devouring. We know of three champions from GW1, The Great Destroyer, Glint, and the dragon in the lake. It wouldn’t be far fetched to think others had their champions somewhere, too. Primordus was about to wake in the end of EotN, but the defeat of the Great Destroyer put it back to sleep for fifty years or so. The awakening may or may not have had something to do with the different races banding together to oppose the destroyers. Glint was rebelling against Kralkatorrik, and the dragon in the lake was, well, frozen in a lake. That explains Jormag and Kralkatorrik only awakening later.

The Elder Dragons also have the power to spread corruption through their champions, even when in slumber, as seen with Svanir.

And then to human gods… Kormir ascended to godhood from a mere mortal...as did Grenth. It’s doubtful that the other gods wouldn’t have ascended from something before being gods, too. [wild speculation]They may have taken over the pantheon from older gods, which were left by the Elder Dragons to oversee the re-cultivation of Tyria to be devoured again. This would make perfect sense with the strong reaction of the other gods for Abaddon giving magic to humans. [/wild speculation]

However, it seems like the Elder Dragons are unable or unwilling to travel to the mists. When beings die, their spirit travels to the mists, where they may be directed to the realm of the being they believe to be in charge of overseeing them (So, Grenth for humans). In Nightfall, many lost spirits had been maddened and trapped to the Realm of Torment, the spirits of those manipulated by Abaddon. As a proof of this, there is a Charr spirit in Realm of Torment, but only human ghosts in Underworld aside from the monsters. Now, what of the Elder Dragons? Do they ever really die? If they do, do their spirits go to the mists? Would their spirits devour everything in their path there, too? [wild speculation] Perhaps the Elder Dragons are entirely locked to the “mundane” world, and need to devour magic from living creatures that act as conduits for the power of the mists. For this reason, they might have corrupted Abaddon long ago to give magic to humans.[/wild speculation]

Gaius.2781:

They conform to the typical Western dragon archetype (six limbs: four legs, two wings)

Skipping the “small continent” since others covered it enough. This is also false:

Zhaitan has 2 legs (no hind legs, like Bone Dragons from GW1) as well as about 4 or so pairs of wings. That’s a total of ~10 limbs. Similarly, Primordus has not been shown to have limbs (we see his model in GW1, with no implications of wings at the shoulders). Only their champions hold the western dragon archetype (and even then, the Shatterer is less draconic and more of a giant homomid with wings, claws, a tail, and dragon head in body shape). Though Kralkatorrik is depicted in EoD and concept art as traditional Western style.

Gaius

Their breath profoundly twists the surrounding landscape

Technically, only for Kralkatorrik. Zhaitan can corrupt organic materials, and Primordus inorganic materials, but I don’t think it’s proven its via their breath.

Gaius

They designate champions, some of which can acquire (or are given) free will

Also wrong. Glint was only able to obtain free will due to a powerful spell the Forgotten used. Combined with his mind-reading abilities.

Gaius

Lore indicates that they were put to sleep because the previous civilization could not defeat them

Actually, lore gives two indications: that the five elder races forced the ED to sleep, or what Glint said (that the ED fell asleep after devouring all they found). I find the former more likely, but given Glint hid the surviving races, the latter’s equally possible.

Gaius

Of course, this still leaves us with some profound lacks of information with regard to their motives, personality, and origin.

Their motives are fairly simple. They want to corrupt the world or destroy it. Personality is an interesting thing. Based off of Edge of Destiny and the personal story, and inspired by a friend’s comment, I believe that each Elder Dragon holds a single mental state, more or less. This is deduced by the ED’s means of corrupting, what they corrupt, Kralkatorrik and Jormag’s thoughts provided via EoD novel, and their minions actions and dialogue. Before going into detail, I believe that the ED’s personalities can summarized as desires; effectively:

• Primordus desires destruction
• Jormag desires power
• Zhaitan desires immortality
• Kralkatorrik desires perfection

Can’t say for the DSD or the unknown sixth ED (if it still lives), so I’ll elaborate on this, in anti-respective order:

From Edge of Destiny, on Kralkatorrik’s thoughts, we’re told that his mind is “like standing in the eye of a cyclone” (pg390) and that “the center of every vortex is a great emptiness-a hollow longing. The storm tries to fill the emptiness, but more it hungers, the deeper the the emptiness becomes.” (391) And as Snaff became what Kralkatorrik wasn’t, the harder Kralk tried to obtain Snaff. This ties into how the branded’s minds are in the book – they’re fanatic, but more than that. They’re seeking to give Kralkatorrik all they can. In other words, Kralkatorrik is attempting to obtain all that he is not yet. And when one obtains everything, they become “perfect.”

Zhaitan is another story. His minions denounce their faiths, despite how faithful the Orrians were they blasphemy the gods and call the Mists “lies.” (all Orr personal story bosses as well as some meta event bosses) But on top of this, they also say that Zhaitan is truth, and Zhaitan is the only true means of obtaining immortality. And through serving Zhaitan, by empowering him, they can obtain that. Where Kralkatorrik forces fanaticism, Zhaitan feeds lies of knowledge and longevity. And in a way, what better way to obtain immortality than through undeath – once you half the rotting process (which seems to be true for risen), there is no more aging. Thus, you have a form of eternal youth, and through becoming more powerful that eternal youth becomes invincible – thus “immortal.”

Jormag’s unique in his corruption. As Khrigar Ripjaw in southern Frostgorge Sound says, where other Elder Dragons corrupt to enslave, Jormag first promises power prior to corrupting. He entices those who will become icebrood to join him willingly, and corrupts through the mind whereas Kralkatorrik does physically and Zhaitan does magically. Through this, he tempts his minions to become stronger, and oddly, he is the only Elder Dragon who’s minions work alongside non-corrupted creatures – icebrood are often seen alongside non-corrupted Sons of Svanir as “gifts” of their devotion, but on top of this as seen through events and stories like Honor of the Waves, Jormag blesses those who prove themselves with more power – his power. He is creating an army of those who desire power, whereas others are merely creating armies and anything they can obtain.

(character length reached, splitting response)

My reasoning for linking Primordus to destruction isn’t in its minions names. Rather, it ties to the minions’ actions and how he corrupts. Unlike all other Elder Dragons (except possibly the DSD), Primordus does not corrupt living beings. At all. He creates mimicries of living creatures instead. His minions themselves seem to hold one objective, to kill everything that lives. Since Eye of the North, that is the main thing they were said to desire – and though I can’t recall where, it was said that the Great Destroyer’s purpose was to eliminate life to make the way for Primordus. So if Primordus didn’t want to kill everything, why would eliminating life make the way for him? Perhaps “destruction” isn’t as accurate as “genocide” would be.

Gaius

Are they from Tyria, or are they extraterrestrial in origin?

All lore indicates they’re of Tyrian origin.

Gaius

What is the relationship between the Dragons, the Gods of Tyria (which were a tangible presence in the original Guild Wars), and the ancient giants (Giganticus lupicus)?

The Giganticus Lupicus were a race of giant bipedal canines (basically big kitten dog-versions of charr). They were wiped out by the Elder Dragons. There doesn’t seem to be any direct relationship between the ED and the Six Gods (as said, Zhaitan’s minions repeatedly denounce their faith in the Six Gods, and Grenth is outright stated to be against Zhaitan).

Gaius

Does their ability to change their surroundings indicate that their purpose might be to stir things up, from an evolutionary perspective?

I actually had a fun thought on this yesterday. An interesting thing to note is that the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan fought during The Source of Orr mission seems to act as if we are the corruptors. Perhaps this is just part of his psychological warfare that he enjoys, but it gives an interesting viewpoint. What if the Elder Dragons’ corruption is Tyria’s original and true form, and the ED are merely trying to revert the world to its original, true, state?

Illushia.3721:

Is their ability to consume magic a selection mechanism etc…

It more seems like that’s just how they eat.

How Zhaitan eats*

It’s never really said that Primordus, Kralkatorrik, etc. devour magic – at least in the same way.

Illushia

ANet has essentially stated that they exist to eat, destroy, make more minions, and fight each other. They don’t seem to have plans or goals.

Except that they do have plans, as shown both in Edge of Destiny and in the personal story. However, they mostly don’t bother with such, as it seems to be a recent discovery for the races of Tyria that Zhaitan strategizes. Then again, they never became threatening. It seems that the Elder Dragons have the mentality of “they don’t care, why should I both trying to think of a means to outsmart them?” until the races become an actual threat (Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan both only showed some level of intelligence after being threatened).

Anet said sometime in the past that their responses in the interviews were all from the standpoint of the beginning of the game/how the races view the events. Most likely done to avoid spoilers.

Tuomir.1830:

Zhaitan is seeking out the book, because it contained information on how the Elder Dragons were stopped before.

A tome with knowledge on the Elder Dragons, actually. The tome that he’s after isn’t the Tome of Rubicon, as the tome found is one that’s been recently discovered in dwarven ruins, whereas the Tome of Rubicon was in Priory hands since 1075 AE at the earliest.

Tuomir

And then to human gods… Kormir ascended to godhood from a mere mortal...as did Grenth. It’s doubtful that the other gods wouldn’t have ascended from something before being gods, too. [wild speculation]They may have taken over the pantheon from older gods, which were left by the Elder Dragons to oversee the re-cultivation of Tyria to be devoured again. This would make perfect sense with the strong reaction of the other gods for Abaddon giving magic to humans. [/wild speculation]

There has to be an origin somewhere, and Dwayna and Melandru – being the oldest two it seems – very well may be that original stat (they’re both depicted as angelic, which we see female angel statues in the Hall of Heroes, the center of the Rift, but not tied to them directly).

Given that the Six Gods were gods prior to arriving on Tyria, it’s unlikely that they’re tied to Elder Dragons in any way, shape, or form. Except for the Six Gods possibly studying the Elder Dragons/Zhaitan and their/his magic.

(character length reached, splitting response)

Tuomir.1830:

However, it seems like the Elder Dragons are unable or unwilling to travel to the mists. […] Now, what of the Elder Dragons? Do they ever really die? If they do, do their spirits go to the mists? Would their spirits devour everything in their path there, too? [wild speculation] Perhaps the Elder Dragons are entirely locked to the “mundane” world, and need to devour magic from living creatures that act as conduits for the power of the mists. For this reason, they might have corrupted Abaddon long ago to give magic to humans.[/wild speculation]

Except that ED minions can travel to the Mists (the icebrood are invading the Mists currently), so I wouldn’t say the ED are unable to travel there. Perhaps there isn’t a portal large enough for them to fit through. :P

As to the gods’ distaste for giving magic – this was more due to the aftermath. It seems, though this is mostly my opinion, that the gods were in favor for giving magic out, but they had to take it back and Abaddon disagreed with this for some unknown reason. The Six Gods only acted to reduce magic after wars between races had become widespread, after all.

(P.S., we need longer character length limits in these forums)

The icebrood in the mists? Oh wow, I clearly have missed something major. Still, it’s not the dragon itself going, but the minions, right? So there might just be something to it. You see, I find it improbable that the ED would be bound to the mists. They’re said to be older than the gods, more powerful than them, even. The human gods hold their realms in the mists, some by force. If the ED could access the mists by themselves, wouldn’t they claim realms of their own there, instead of remaining in Tyria? Unless, of course, they have a very good reason to remain. What makes an almost infinitely powerful being stay in a world of limitations?

Oh, and the part about the god conspiracies was mostly speculation for the sake of speculation. I like to do that at times.

I think that the Dragons are Lovecraftian monstrosities in almost every sense. They have their own agendas and drives which are utterly alien to us. Their mere existence is completely inimical to our form of life. They were here long before the mortal races crawled out of the primordial ooze, and they expect to still be here when the sun goes out. They are in it for the long haul while the lives of mortals flicker about them like fireflies on a dark night. Or at least, they were.

The fact that the mortal races of Tyria were able to bring down Zhaitan is a wonder; imagine a swarm of gnats suddenly dropping a bomb on you. Completely unexpected, yes but now the other Dragons know we are a threat, and that we are too dangerous to continue ignoring.

I expect Zhaitan to be the easiest Dragon to take down for this reason. He underestimated the 5 races to his own downfall. The others will be expecting us.

Verteiron.8734:

I think that the Dragons are Lovecraftian monstrosities in almost every sense. They have their own agendas and drives which are utterly alien to us. Their mere existence is completely inimical to our form of life. They were here long before the mortal races crawled out of the primordial ooze, and they expect to still be here when the sun goes out. They are in it for the long haul while the lives of mortals flicker about them like fireflies on a dark night. Or at least, they were.

The fact that the mortal races of Tyria were able to bring down Zhaitan is a wonder; imagine a swarm of gnats suddenly dropping a bomb on you. Completely unexpected, yes but now the other Dragons know we are a threat, and that we are too dangerous to continue ignoring.

I expect Zhaitan to be the easiest Dragon to take down for this reason. He underestimated the 5 races to his own downfall. The others will be expecting us.

I’m not so sure about that, Kralkatorrik was attacked by DE and, were it not for Logan’s infamous decision, he probably was going to lose that fight and be mortally wounded/killed. And that was just 6 people, if the pact decides to bounce around Tyria like an ED-extermination service, we might just be able to spam #2 to win against these other EDs as well. I’m estimating Jormag and Primordus to be the strongest dragons, since Jormag was the only dragon that actively combatted other races (the Norn and Kodan) in order to claim his territory. Primordus’ destroyers are by far the strongest of the ED minions, and one of his champions was the boss of the original GW1, while Jormag’s, Kralky’s, and Zhaitain’s are mere world events.

Just to point out, they did say that the Zhaitan fight is bugged so it’ll probably change from spam 2 to win.

Tuomir.1830:

The icebrood in the mists? Oh wow, I clearly have missed something major.

Norn storyline for “Protect the Mists” biography option, as well as an event during The Frozen Maw meta event in Wayfarer Foothills – there’s also at least 2 or 3 portals that icebrood come through throughout the Shiverpeaks.

The concept is that they used the Wolf havroun to access the Mists, and that’s allowed Jormag to begin invading the Mists. Since portals of the same kind with icebrood coming through exists in lvl 80 areas (Frostgorge Sound), despite saving the Wolf havroun, the icebrood still have some means of getting into – and out of – the Mists.

Tuomir.1830:

You see, I find it improbable that the ED would be bound to the mists.

“Bound to” is not the same as “unable to enter” – rather, you’re instead arguing in your previous post that they’re bound to Tyria, rather than simply living on Tyria.

As to the ED accessing the Mists by themselves – that seems not the case. In fact, the only means to access the Mists at all seems to be through the aid of a deity figure that resides within the Mists – specifically the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Koda. As we’ve seen at least.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As to the ED accessing the Mists by themselves – that seems not the case. In fact, the only means to access the Mists at all seems to be through the aid of a deity figure that resides within the Mists – specifically the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Koda. As we’ve seen at least.

Fair points, but this is in fact what I’m saying, at least in a way. The deities that reside in the mists are extremely powerful beings. Mortal beings have ascended to be deities, too. But the ED, they are something different altogether. They are even more powerful than those deities, see Jormag devouring Owl and likely Ox, Wolverine and Eagle. Yet they are unable to open portals to the mists by themselves, meaning their origins are not of the mists.

Another interesting thought to consider: Jormag and Zhaitan have both, intentionally or not, replaced “mist deities” in the minds of their followers and minions. As far as I know, there is no dialogue on minions of Kralkatorrik or Primordus, but they might just as well do the same. However, the relevance of this is questionable, as it might just be about power and control.

I’ve played the Asura personal story quest that talked about the Elder Dragons consuming magic. I find it curious that it was taken as evidence that magic wasn’t a closed system but instead a consumable resource like water. The water system in our world is the prime example of a closed system, so overall I think some of the hyperbole of the quests are examples of Asura not knowing everything but acting like they do.

Overall, I don’t think the Elder Dragons consuming magic can be taken in the same light as animals consuming food. If anything it’s more of an enzyme consuming matter; an endless chemical process that will go on as long as there are raw materials. Replace base chemicals with magic and you get what I think the Elder Dragons are, especially considering taking Oola’s statement of us being the embodiment of magic as fact… a stretch given Oola’s ego, but it fits given the observable atmosphere.

Overall, I think that would be the dragon’s purpose. They don’t literally eat magic so much as remove it from the natural Tyrian environment and inserts it into their own… let’s call it ecosystem. As for why they’re like this… I see most though unfortunately not all the Elder Dragons as a hostile force of nature given motive to expand. Zhaiten is decay, Jormag the frozen waste, and Primordus maga/lava. Kralkatorrik is a bit harder to pin down, breaking this form of classification, so I’m just not sure… it’s just my best reflection on the matter.

As for defeating dragons, I haven’t done of the personal story myself but I see the fight against Zhaiten as a progressive thing. First you cut off new corruption, then you begin cleansing. Once cleansing has started and new corruption is prevented the Elder Dragon can only create new minions by given from itself. During the Personal Story we will destroy the Mouth of Zhaiten, but during the final dungeon we’ll we’ll fight such a monstrosity again. This isn’t unintentional redundancy; faced with attacks from multiple fronts Zhaiten spawns new champions to attack it’s enemies.

People say that those final moments in the story need some tuning (and admittedly I hope it is improved by the time I get around to doing them), but ultimately I see fighting a dragon as one big war of attrition. If anything Primordus will be the most difficult one to defeat due to the difficulty of preventing him from retreating back into the earth. The journey in doing any of this will be in finding out how to reverse their corruptions.

Tuomir.1830:

The deities that reside in the mists are extremely powerful beings. Mortal beings have ascended to be deities, too. But the ED, they are something different altogether. They are even more powerful than those deities, see Jormag devouring Owl and likely Ox, Wolverine and Eagle. Yet they are unable to open portals to the mists by themselves, meaning their origins are not of the mists.

It may not be the deities themselves that open portals.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Rift

The Mists connects to all things, and the Rift itself is a place of doorways, so to speak. Then you have placed like The Shadow Nexus which is literally a portal hub. In other words, the only way to open a portal to the Mists seems to be to have access to the Mists – power levels over 9,000 or not.

Lutinz.6915:

As to their origin, I think its still far too much in the air for a clear theory. My personal one is that they were a race that either made themselves or were made into their current form. Perhaps the reason we dont see many other dragons that arent minions around is because they were the first victims of the EDs hunger. I guess we will have to wait and see if there are any dragons not tied to the EDs.

Well, we still don’t know that the dragons and dragonlike creatures of Cantha are tied to the EDs (or, like Glint, were formerly tied to the EDs and released). There are also the drakes, basilisks, and similar draconic-esque creatures in Tyria, some of which rangers can tame as companions. If one wanted to look for an ecosystem that the EDs could have evolved from, if anything it’s actually kind of surprising how many potential relatives they have – unless it’s a case of the EDs deliberately aiming to conserve their relatives. (Which might explain somewhat that line about the races being the corruption – from the ED point of view, compared to the hypothetical ancient ecosystem of the dragons, anything else is an invasive species.)

On the gods – I thought why Abaddon didn’t like the limits placed on magic was actually explained (he felt that magic was his special gift, and when the other gods went behind his back to weaken it, he felt they were also conspiring to undermine his importance to and influence with mortals).

With regards the the Dwayna-Melandru connection – part of that is simply because they’re the only current gods which so far we’ve had no indication of having a predecessor. We know how Kormir ascended, we know Abaddon and Grenth had predecessors (and we now know Grenth was born on Tyria), it was implied and now confirmed that Balthazar’s sibling relationship with Menzies meant he had parents, and the twin goddesses comprising Lyssa implies that they too may have parents, but so far we haven’t anything to indicate that Dwayna, Melandru, or for that matter Dhuum didn’t simply spontaneously form as primordial representations of the concepts they embody.

Devs have mentioned(I forget where) that drakes have no relation to the Elder Dragons.

Lyssa represents duality, the two are one, so to speak. Two sides of the same coin, that through some four dimensional thinking both have their own back sides. That the deity consists of two doesn’t put them at a different position than Melandru or Dwayna. Same applies to Balthazar, too. And since there are records (well, legends) and older beings preceding the arrival of human gods (Dwarves, Elder Dragons, Seers, Giganticus Lupicus). So, all of the human gods came from somewhere, ascended from mortality or not.

Now, my theory is that the power of creation is linked to the Mists – let me quote Nightfall manuscripts here:

“Demons are more than creatures of the Mists – they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power.”

In other words, life created spontaneously just from the Mists itself. Deities have used or still use this power to create life on Tyria (On Tyria for more stability, because apparently just Mists makes demons…), and on death, spirits return to the Mists unless cursed or otherwise impaired. In a way, this makes it a closed system. A closed system the Elder Dragons aren’t a part of.

The Elder Dragons don’t create life – they corrupt it. In EotN, it seemed like the destroyers were created and given life by the Great Destroyer, and by extension by Primordus, but this seems to have been retconned so that the destroyers are corrupted living beings, trolls, crabs, harpies and so on. The Elder Dragons also seem to be above Mist Deities in power. However, where does their power come from? They don’t use the power coming from the mists, instead they have their own energy that Inquest is trying to tap into.

So, to put the whole point together, the Elder Dragons are fundamentally different from anything mortal or immortal on Tyria and in the Mists.

Destroyers are not corrupted living beings. Those Destroyer Trolls, Destroyer Crabs, and Destroyer Harpies are merely mockeries of living creatures. Primordus copies the shape of the creatures it knows of. All destroyers are made from lava and stone, not creatures. They are corruptions, yes, but of inorganic materials.

Racial Sympathy storyline part, Skritt path. In a dialogue between you and your mentor, it’s made clear that normally dragon minions can’t reproduce, but you find destroyer crab eggs. So, the logical conclusion is that the “crab queen” was corrupted after the eggs were conceived, but before they were laid, resulting in the eggs hatching into destroyers.

So much oversight and misinformation in here.. Its hard to sort out what is and isnt accurate and what needs correcting…

What are the Elder Dragons:
As far as we know and from their descriptions, they are primordial beasts older than currently known history. They care nothing for the world and seek only to burn it and feast upon the ashes that remain. They are Hunger and Hatred personified and magnified to colossal scales. magical and non magical at the same time.

Power:
Their Power comes from the corruption of magic adding it into their already expansive pool. They’re servants are gifted with portions of what becomes a Massive ocean, however their corruption can be reversed or cleansed in some cases and appears that the death of minions also weakens this power.

History:
Not much is known about the Elder Dragons last awakening, aside from a few smattered accounts from Arah. many races have not survived these periods of time, the only ones known being: The Jotun, Forgotten, Murrsaat and Seer’s.

The Jotun:
Described as the oldest race in tyria in lore, these once great beasts have warred themselves backwards to a primitive state. One masters of magic, even before the human gods split the blood stones and released magic and gifted it to the world once more. They now struggle with even simple magic and their great history is all but lost.

The Forgotten: This ancient race predates humanity and all other races currently in tyria today. Described as the over seer’s to the birth of Humanity and the world, aside Glint (whom’ they freed and were later hidden by) the cared for Tyria when there were no others. Upon Humanity’s expansion this race was pushed back into the Crystal desert where they may still reside. This race was saved from the Elder dragons by Glint as she hid them away until her master returned to his slumber.

The Seer’s and Murrsat:
These tow races seem to have a similar time line to the Forgotten and according to lost Lore kept in Arah, were responsible for the creation of the Blood stone’s. The Blood Stones sealed away all the Uncorrupted magic remaining in tyria, saving it from the dragons. These two races worked closely together for this purpose, then later hid away. afterwards they began to War upon one another, ultimately leading to the events of Guildwars 1 and the Flame Seeker Prof’s.

The exodus of the Human Gods:
While it’s not unthinkable that the human gods learned of and knew about the Elder Dragons from their studies of the older races, their exodus was caused by civil war. When Abaddon, the God of Secrects, took pity upon man and the mergonites and all the races of tyria as they struggled and gifted them with Magic. This sparked A great war amongst not only the races of tyria but the gods and their followers. The end of this war came when Abaddon was struck down and sealed away with his followers and secrets in the Realm of Torment by the other 5 gods. (this happened in the crystal Desert). After ensuring all memory of this 6th god and betrayer was erased or locked away, the human gods departed from Tyria but not before splitting the Blood stones created by the Murrsat and Seer’s, ensuring that magic was divided and shared equally through out all of tyria in all races..

Elder Dragons Exude pure, raw, magical energy. primodus while still in slumber was the solitary source of energy for the asuran portal hub in Gw1.

The dragons left guardians to guard them as they slumbered, obviously fearing the surviving races if there were any, while also ensuring they might have an easy meal when they time for them to awaken again came.

The death of the Great Destroyer (Gw1) Set Primordus’s awakening back by a full generation, implying the dragons are extremely weak and starved to the point where they cannot wake under their own power, outside sources of magic must be corrupted and added to the collective in order to awaken the primary source of the corruption. (this is not seen with the other dragons aside from Jormag thus far).

I can’t think of much more to write down at this time that might be helpful but it seems to me that These creatures might be the oldest surviving race Tyria has ever known. If magic were to flow naturaly from the Planet itself, it would infuse itself with all manners of life that flourish upon it. If evolutionary standards were to take place with this added element, the first primitive beasts to harness Magic for survival and gain would quickly begin to decimate the surround populations.

Now for my speculative point, I put it last so you can just skip to it…

If the first races on tyria to harness magic began to consume everything around them, internally they build a greater amount of force and magic. If this magic began to act as a drug or bottomless hole begging to be filled, a normal hunger to simply survive becomes a greedy need to consume any, and everything. This focuses and twists the magic into a single purpose, and the more that is consumed, the larger the hole becomes, creating a hatred for never being satiated. This hatred becomes the corruption of the Elder Dragons, twisting and warping their forms, minds, and essence until they become what they are today. A by product of Tyria itself, and nothing more than a lesson in caution and greed, and perhaps A closing for the guild wars universe as a revelation that magic must die to prevent a new batch of Dragons from arising.

have a good one guys. sorry it had to use two posts.

Swish.2463:

History:
Not much is known about the Elder Dragons last awakening, aside from a few smattered accounts from Arah. many races have not survived these periods of time, the only ones known being: The Jotun, Forgotten, Murrsaat and Seer’s.

You forgot the dwarves. Their knowledge of the EDs survived in myths and legends. Thus they had knowledge of the Great Destroyer and Zhaitan.

Swish.2463:

The Seer’s and Murrsat:
These tow races seem to have a similar time line to the Forgotten and according to lost Lore kept in Arah, were responsible for the creation of the Blood stone’s. The Blood Stones sealed away all the Uncorrupted magic remaining in tyria, saving it from the dragons. These two races worked closely together for this purpose, then later hid away. afterwards they began to War upon one another, ultimately leading to the events of Guildwars 1 and the Flame Seeker Prof’s.

The it was the human gods, NOT the seers/mursaat who created the bloodstones and split the four schools of magic to limit the destructive powers of the four when used together.

Swish.2463:

The dragons left guardians to guard them as they slumbered, obviously fearing the surviving races if there were any, while also ensuring they might have an easy meal when they time for them to awaken again came.

They didn’t necessarily fear the races. As far as we know, they consumed all they saw before them. Glint hid those who survived so the dragons would not discover them.

@ Tuomir Except that it wasn’t a corrupted creature, no destroyer is. It’s a destroyer that was creating other destroyers via eggs. Read the personal story overview in the Hero Panel

@Swish: Forgotten don’t predate jotun to our knowledge.

I don’t think it was stated the mursaat had anything to do with the bloodstones’ creation. Though I haven’t done the Arah explorable mode dungeon in full yet.

@Warriors of Asgard: The seers made the bloodstone, the gods found it, used it to grant magic, and then split it to reduce magic. Arah explorable mode.

Why are the elder dragons so weak in their current state? I’d imagine Zhaitan would be a match against Grenth, but I’m somehow disappointed in their scale of power. It would seem they are just like any other race, only more powerful. I thought they were not just a manifestation of the force of nature, but control the force of nature itself. Or maybe they are just “malnourished” at their current state? LOL The world of Tyria is overflowing with magical energies. I don’t know the source of this energy, if it originated from Melandru, Dwayna, etc., or it is really a natural part of the world. So maybe the elder dragons are a race that need to consume magic, and consume the world as a consequence?

@Konig I wasn’t aware of that yet. Still haven’t been to Arah.

I just came here to say +1 for noticing the Chrono Cross parallels between the Dragon Gods and Elder Dragons, I can’t believe I didn’t noticed it before, the Chrono games are my favorite games of all time.

@Tuomir: The key word is “arrived”. The gods as a group are not native to Tyria, although some of them are. Apart from the native-born gods, we literally have no idea how old the gods were when they arrived on Tyria – it’s possible that they predate Tyria itself (although it doesn’t seem like they were responsible for its creation).

One of the tidbits of information we find about Balthazar is that when he arrives on Tyria, he does so carrying the head of his father. This tells us that Balthazar had a father, and suggests that his father died violently, although whether Balthazar was carrying the head in triumph or in mourning is unclear. Either way, this tells us that Balthazar certainly did have a parent, while we have no such information regarding Dwayna or Melandru – for all we know they are first-generation gods with no parents or other predecessors, possibly even born directly from the Mists.

Lyssa is an interesting one. It could be her way of representing duality as you say, but there’s new information there in that her two parts do have their own names – one Lyss, while the other’s name gets contradicted by different sources. While that could still be part of the dualistic two-sides-of-a-coin aspect, that does increase the strength of the theory that the twin goddesses making Lyssa are actually twins in the familial sense that share the mantle of deityhood, not one entity with two sides – and if so, that implies a parent. Again, this distinguishes them from Dwayna and Melandru, neither of which have shown any signs of having a predecessor.