Guild Wars 2

First of all, I would like to start off by stating that i am by no means a lore geek. I think I do know a quite a bit more of the story than the average GW2 player, but my knowledge of the lore is nothing compared to what’s actually out there and what some lore geeks know.

Now, I think that this topic has been discussed a lot, but I would like to throw my own opinion in just for the sake of it.

Back in the day, before the release of GW2, the developers were talking about the dragons and representing them as a really bad earthquake/storm. They were like the worst possible weather, a force of nature, the greatest of all predators. They did not care for anything, their hunger drove them forward, to devour the world.

And that’s where the problem lies, that’s what Zhaitan represented to me. Killing Zhaitan felt like preventing bad weather. Now don’t get me wrong, the ambient and the music after Zhaitan’s fall was simply amazing, but in the end, I realized that I had no motive to kill Zhaitan, other than to feed my OCD and get rid of that personal story interface thingy in the top right corner of my screen.

Where’s the problem? Zhaitan wasn’t personal enough, all he really was; was a distant problem, and there was nothing personal tied to him that I could hate and fight against. I never saw Zhaitan himself destroying my homeland, I never saw Zhaitan gazing towards my character and charging at me, Zhaitan wasn’t there when Claw island was assaulted and Lion’s arch was threatened. I never saw any of Zhaitan’s generals talking about how much they fear him, or how mad he is.

Just imagine how cool it would be if we got a cinematic where Zhaitan destroyed one of his generals after he stopped being useful to him. Imagine how awesome would it be to hear him speak, what could he possibly say? He doesn’t even have to speak to us directly, it would be awesome if he was holding some epic monologue while flying across an undead battlefield. He could’ve acquired some artifact and confronted us in our dreams, anything would be better than actually just fighting a huge animal that summons undead.

I mean, just think about it! For example, why do people love the Joker from Batman so much? Because he’s got a freaking amusing character ! Zhaitan doesn’t have any character. Think to yourselves; who is your bavorite villain and why? You’ll find out that none of those villains are anything like Zhaitan and I mean that in a bad way.

TL DR; we need personal motivation to go after someone or to engage in a journey and I feel that there was nothing personal about confronting Zhaitan.

Also, the last fight felt lazy, just give us a cinematic of canons shooting at him and Zhaitan falling down, don’t force us to spam click autoattack to kill him.

Teulius.8752:

TL DR; we need personal motivation to go after someone or to engage in a journey and I feel that there was nothing personal about confronting Zhaitan.

Also, the last fight felt lazy, just give us a cinematic of canons shooting at him and Zhaitan falling down, don’t force us to spam click autoattack to kill him.

So someone killing loads of people, destroying towns and trying to kill everything that stands in its way is not motivation enough to confront them?

Keep in mind that we didn’t really go after Zhaitan until he attacked and took Claw Island. Sure, we worked against the dragons before that, but the real reason for going into Orr was the fact that he came closer and closer to one of the main population centers.

You have to keep in mind that the last fight has been going on for months (ingame) before we actually kill Zhaitan.

You’re missing the point, what I was trying to say was that Zhaitan had no character to go with it. All Zhaitan really was, was a storm, a threatening object, no personality at all.
I consider that to be a problem, but if someone else actually enjoyed the story as it is, then great, have fun!
Again, not bashing the game, just saying that nobody really cared about Zhaitan.
If anyone here has ever played wow just remember how hyped up everyone was a bout the lich king, and then how nobody really cared about Deathwing.
Why? Deathwing is not human, and there is nothing human about him, we couldn’t relate in any way.

You are essentially right however there is an introduction to the Elder Dragons in the personal story. It should come when you are around level 20-30 along with the pact?

Zaitan himself doesn’t actually need to be shown before Arah. The eyes and mouths are good enough for the personal story. Everyone knows the Arah finish isn’t good enough and Zaitan himself should have been a multi stage fight. We could have fought him once on the ground in Arah and driven him off, used airships to chase, then had a (better) finish on the airships.

There is a flaw in your argument however. You use wow as an example of character development, specifically the Lich King. The Lich King actually is no different from Zhaitan, albeit he talked but motives for fighting him were the same. He was just a bad ‘storm’ that the world of Azeroth had to fight in order to prevent untold devastation, much like when Deathwing returned for the fourth or fifth time.

Now the point about Joker is actually an interesting one. Joker is insane to the extreme, yet aside from that he doesn’t have much character to him. Same with Final Fantasy 6 Kefka (I’m probably spelling that wrong since I never can get it right on the first try) he was one of my favorite villains but when examined more closely he doesn’t have much character to begin with.

As for Stooperdale’s suggestion, I think they avoided that intentionally so that they wouldn’t accidentally copy Blizzard with the whole deathwing battle. Although they could of have the second or third stage be where the players do something similar to what Snaff did, or protect Zojja while she attempts the feat, instead of an airship chase.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

There is a flaw in your argument however. You use wow as an example of character development, specifically the Lich King. The Lich King actually is no different from Zhaitan, albeit he talked but motives for fighting him were the same. He was just a bad ‘storm’ that the world of Azeroth had to fight in order to prevent untold devastation, much like when Deathwing returned for the fourth or fifth time.

Zhaitan did not murder his father or betray the human kind like the lich kind did. We did not watch Zhaitan slowly turn from a paladin to a self righteous insane mass murderer. Zhaitan’s father did not return as a spirit when he died to converse with him. We never saw any risen separate form Zhaitan in order to strike back like we did with the forsaken. The lich king is a lot more human than Zhaitan (mentally) and that’s why the lich king is a far more interesting villain than Zhaitan.

So, for a villain to be interesting they have to be human?

Teulius.8752:

Where’s the problem? Zhaitan wasn’t personal enough, all he really was; was a distant problem, and there was nothing personal tied to him that I could hate and fight against. I never saw Zhaitan himself destroying my homeland, I never saw Zhaitan gazing towards my character and charging at me, Zhaitan wasn’t there when Claw island was assaulted and Lion’s arch was threatened. I never saw any of Zhaitan’s generals talking about how much they fear him, or how mad he is.

He’s the first of the Elder Dragons who has launched a direct attack to take over more lands. None of the orders were focusing on him until he attacked and took Claw Island, which, if left alone would’ve led to the destruction of Lion’s Arch (And he killed Tybalt/Forgal/Sieran).
His generals were remotely controlled by him. His will is their own, and so if he decided that killing them would help the odds of his cause, they would willingly give up their lives(?), so that’s why that kind of rambling would’ve been unnecesary.

Teulius.8752:

He doesn’t even have to speak to us directly, it would be awesome if he was holding some epic monologue while flying across an undead battlefield. He could’ve acquired some artifact and confronted us in our dreams, anything would be better than actually just fighting a huge animal that summons undead.

He did speak to us in different occasions during the storyline, albeit through his minions.

Teulius.8752:

I mean, just think about it! For example, why do people love the Joker from Batman so much? Because he’s got a freaking amusing character ! Zhaitan doesn’t have any character. Think to yourselves; who is your bavorite villain and why? You’ll find out that none of those villains are anything like Zhaitan and I mean that in a bad way.

Everyone’s got different tastes, so I’m not going to discuss this point any further.

How do we know Zhaitan didn’t murder his father? We don’t know what or whom made the Elder Dragons. It highly possible some other creature or force created them, perhaps along the Tyrian Gods, and the Elder Dragons destroyed this mysterious being or thing in the distant past. Also none of the reasons you gave actually give any of the players, including the Forsaken players, a reason to fight the Lich King on a personal level. Ok he betrayed his death knights and sent them to their possible death. Don’t the death knights do the exact same thing with their Ghouls? So he made the Forsaken’s leader, along with probably most of the Forsaken themselves, into undead personally. Don’t they do this to their enemies now as well? His back story is interesting, to say the least, but can’t be compared to the Elder Dragons due to the fact he is human and they aren’t. The Elder Dragons are presented as this mysterious force that isn’t very well understood. It can be taken in any direction, perhaps them being depicted as the Great Old Ones of Lovecraft. The Lich King is depicted as your typical spoiled monarchical brat who allowed his ego to lead to his easy corruption. He’s no more interesting than Zhaitan in the villain department using your logic. Both he and Zhaitan plan to conquer the world using their undead forces. Both he and Zhaitan send their lieutenants to fight the races of their respective world. Both are fought in their relative headquarters. Both are slain by the united forces of their respective worlds. The only difference is that Arthas is depicted as one of those pitiful weak villains who had a ‘redeemable’ quality at the end with his father’s spirit appearing before him, probably to try and instill some guilt at his fate in the players. Zhaitan was shown to be similar to a destructive of storm.

I agree with Teulius, one hundred percent- on the Zhaitan stuff, anyway. I’ve never played WoW, so when someone says ‘lich’ I think ‘Khilbron.’

Zhaitan is an uncompelling villain. He has no character, no personality, no flavor to him, aside from the small and frankly unreliable snippets you can gleam from his minions. Only the sylvari character has any real personal reason to want Zhaitan destroyed, and that’s only in the sense of “It’s my destiny to do this.” There’s nothing that makes you want to kill him (or secretly root for him); he’s a blank slate. I understand that’s what ANet intended, to a certain degree, but they overshot. A storm only has emotional impact when it’s pounding at your door. If you chase it down across half a continent to where you know kitten well you’ll find it, it’s not at all the same.

And before you all pipe up again about Claw Island or threats to the world, I’d like to point out that you are barking up the wrong tree. Those two bits are about risen, not Zhaitan, and the two are not compatible. He might be giving the commands, but he’s never there himself, taking part. He shares logical guilt, but not the emotional kind, and it is from the later that any chance of a compelling character would have arose. Back to the Claw Island example, as far as your mentor’s death is concerned, I felt a fair bit of satisfaction taking out Blightghast (and even that was eclipsed by the feeling of taking out my first dragon). When I was fighting Zhaitan, on the other hand, Tybalt never even crossed my mind. The personal connection simply is not there.

As for the whole “threat to the world” bit, that is pretty much your character’s driving motivation- and it is not only about the world, not Zhaitan, but it is also highly impersonal. It’s about saving people you haven’t met, and only care about because you’re a good person, from a undefined threat that they may or may not ever be placed in. People have died who you never knew, and in fact never knew existed. The enemy is one you have never met before, who may or may not do great harm without your direct involvement, and who themselves have only abstract reasons for fighting. Zhaitan himself is a name, then a dragon who never really gets close to you, then a target for a half-dozen cannons, one of which you happen to be in a place to man, and then a corpse. It’s all abstract, impersonal, and uncompelling, and again, it’s about the world, not Zhaitan. If Zhaitan had flown off never to be heard from again, if the risen had ceased their assault and pulled back within Orr’s boundaries, if Zhaitan had been captured and held where he could do no harm, it would have been all the same to our characters, because the world would be safe. I do love this game, but it is not for the villains.

So are you upset at how Zhaitan is portrayed (as a force of nature) or the fact that he (a force of nature) had no character. I think you’re answering your own question. Coming from various other games, I think it’s just difficult to adjust to the mentaility of what these enemies really are. The fact that they don’t necessarily have intentions, and that they just “are” is a difficult concept to grasp when you add the hero aspect.

I don’t know that upset is the right term- my argument, anyway, is that he doesn’t make for a compelling or interesting villain/antagonist. Zhaitan, as he was portrayed, was simply an obstacle to surmount, which is an iconic theme in many hero stories, but has never really grabbed me. I like feeling personally attached to both heroes and villains, and like my character has a stake in what is occurring, and neither of those things factored much into the storyline. But I’m not exactly upset, because I kept up with the pre-release, and I knew picking the game up that that was how it was going to be. I suppose the over-all point, if one can be said to exist, is that it would be nice if future Elder Dragons have that personal aspect. That, and the people trying to refute Teulius weren’t making strong arguments.

Do you think it was the telling of the story or the design of the dragon itself? I felt it was completely underwhelming just because of Trahearne, and the back seat world saving you did because of him.

I think for future dragons they should try to find a way to make a personal connection with the character but also keeping them unbiased, independent forces as they are intended to be. For the most part I agree with you, the story is not engaging. But I think Trahearne has a lot to do with that.

Aaron Ansari You not missing anything, lore wise, by not playing WoW. The ‘lore’ of WoW is so contradicting that it just feels like each ‘addition’ is Blizzard stopping and going ‘what popular thing can we throw into the game this time.’

Anyways I think the Elder Dragons aren’t suppose to be antagonists/villains just a ominous threat to the world, sort of like how a meteor bound for Earth wouldn’t be a antagonist/villain for us just something we need to handle.

I noticed if you look at things from Teulius perspective than Abaddon of Guild Wars 1 has a similar ‘problem’ as he never shown given a ‘personal/individual’ reason for us to face him. In fact many MMO villains have this problem as well, Arthas included amongst the list, as does a few villains of single player games.

I think it’s the structure of the story. Zhaitan never makes an appearance for himself, and thereby blunts any investment in him. This was done to create mystery, but the mystery culminates in one of the most rapid and underwhelming sequences the game has to offer, spoiling the whole work. Then add in that you mentor aside, the only characters that you can really create an attachment to are in the first two story arcs, and very few of those put in an appearance later, AND you could very well miss the arc where they do so. Trahearne I don’t blame so much- the voice-acting was subpar, and he wasn’t particularly likeable later on, but that’s the worst I can say of him. This is a bit of a sidetrack, but I honestly believe that the Trahearne hate is just from a relatively (gameplay speaking) useless character being perceived to be better rewarded than the player, in a community that has developed a knee-jerk reaction to such (Kormir and, to a lesser extent, Gwen).

@Darkbattlemage The difference with Abaddon is that he did directly attack a character you had a reason to be invested in, and there was another villain who was rather personal and engaging for about three-fourths of the storyline. Zhaitan’s lieutenants are nowhere near on par with Varesh Ossa.

True I found Varesh Ossa more loathable than Zhaitan’s lieutenants, but then again I always pity the undead as they just following orders. but I think we sort of derailed this from the topic.

I think the reason Zhaitan failed wasn’t because of the reasons Teulius stated but because he made the same mistake as Palawa Joko did originally. He underestimated his opponent and didn’t exploit his forces advantages over his opponents as much as he should.

Varesh and Shiro are two of the most well developed villains I’ve ever encountered. Shiro (and for that matter the entire Factions story) was phenomenol.

I have to agree with Aaron. I think the underwhelming value to Zhaitan is the fact that he is never personally involved with anything you do. I mean would Varesh have been an interesting enemy if all you ever saw in the cinematics was Morghan and Bayel talking and she just randomly appeared in the last mission (last Varesh involved mission anyways)? I think all it would really take was one very important life or area taken directly by the Elder Dragon (not by his minions, unless he had an interesting independent thinking champion that spoke for him, thinking Varesh again). Something of that caliber could give the players a personal vendetta against the dragon, a reason to want it dead and removed from the world. I personally think they should bring in some of the more interesting champion types like Morgus Lethe, rather than giant dragons. I personally find the Priests and Priestesses at the temples more interesting than the Tequatl’s just because they can speak and give us information, and use that to their advantage to give the players more reason to kill the Elder Dragons.

If they made a dragon take the life of a character that player is invested in, they’d have to do so in a way that didn’t downplay the dragon’s role in the world which is a force of nature. It would be difficult and frankly foolish for your character to delevop a personal vendetta with such a creature.

I think the problem is rooted at the foundation; the fact that these dragons don’t necessarily have an agenda, except consume – they just exist.

Unfortuneatley the gods can’t really be a huge part of the plot considering they are the human gods and we are now dealing with multiple races. I think it would have been more interesting to allow the living story to culminate into the major plot, which we may still see I suppose, but we know the overarching theme is these dragons.

If a particularly nefarious group found a way to control the dragons, it may add a layer of personality to the story (looking at you, inquest).

Dragons were not always the main antagonists of Guild Wars 2. According to The Making of Guild Wars 2 book, original drafts for story included demons and angelic beings descending to the world to judge it.

I’m wondering why this was scrapped in favor of dragons that have no particular vested interest in the world.

Gnat.9405:

Unfortuneatley the gods can’t really be a huge part of the plot considering they are the human gods and we are now dealing with multiple races. I think it would have been more interesting to allow the living story to culminate into the major plot, which we may still see I suppose, but we know the overarching theme is these dragons.

Haven’t the Humans Gods been silent since the Dragons began to wake up?

If a particularly nefarious group found a way to control the dragons, it may add a layer of personality to the story (looking at you, inquest).

That actually sounds like something we might see very soon, provided Snaff recorded how he managed to enter the mind of that Elder Dragon prior to his death. Maybe we see them ‘resurrect’ Zhaitan, since I think they have quite a few Necromancers in their ranks, as some golem undead hybrid creature.

Dragons were not always the main antagonists of Guild Wars 2. According to The Making of Guild Wars 2 book, original drafts for story included demons and angelic beings descending to the world to judge it.

I’m wondering why this was scrapped in favor of dragons that have no particular vested interest in the world.

Probably to avoid confusion with Diablo or offend people.

Avoiding the religeous aspect is what I figured too. If we get the Thaumanova fractal I think the inquest theory would be viable.

I think the failure behind Zhaitan (and the EDs in general) is that I feel nothing towards the places they attacked. The charr attacked and destroyed MY character’s hometown of Ascalon. Forever after, my Prophecies character became a refugee. Shiro’s Afflicted attacked MY monastery and MY city. My Factions character had to go and save a city already under attack, even dying at some point along the way. Varesh threatened the security of MY home island of Istan. I’m going to go lay a beatdown. I’m winning, oh wait she summons demons, wrecks my forces, maims my commander, destroys my fleet and proceeds to attack MY continent and MY world.

My point is, none of our safe havens are threatened. DR, Hoelbrak, Grove, BC, and Rata Sum are never threatened. Claw Island, Vigil, Priory, and Whispers HQ aren’t really havens, the fact that they get attacked wasn’t so much a surprise as it was meant to be. The dragons are so lazy, so slow, they don’t do anything! Zhaitan should have permanently destroyed a settlement. Jormag, Primordius, and Kralkatorrik should DO something! Even if we just got news of their movements, but make them MOVE! Make them an impending threat.

In GW1, what made the Charr, Mursaat, Shiro, Afflicted, Varesh, and the Destroyers so awesome was that they moved all over the place, destroying things wherever they go. They had a plan, a direction. That’s why the Great Destroyer was kinda just lame, he sat there waiting for us to go to him. Abaddon still has cool points because it was his planning, and its not like he had a choice, being chained by Balthazaar’s handcuffs. The Risen are pretty cool in this game, especially the one time Risen bosses in the story, like the Mouth of Zhaitan and the princes and priests. They have something to do. Zhaitan is soooooooo lazy. In Destiny’s Edge, Kralkatorrik got cool points because he woke up and the first thing he did was take care of business.

Gregorius.1024:

I think the failure behind Zhaitan (and the EDs in general) is that I feel nothing towards the places they attacked. The charr attacked and destroyed MY character’s hometown of Ascalon. Forever after, my Prophecies character became a refugee. Shiro’s Afflicted attacked MY monastery and MY city. My Factions character had to go and save a city already under attack, even dying at some point along the way. Varesh threatened the security of MY home island of Istan. I’m going to go lay a beatdown. I’m winning, oh wait she summons demons, wrecks my forces, maims my commander, destroys my fleet and proceeds to attack MY continent and MY world.

I agree with prophecies reason till Shiverpeaks because it becomes focus on the survival. Factions I was more curious why Togo, myself, and the other characters were apparently immune to this plague instead of actually wanting to fight Shiro. As for Istan it didn’t feel like it was actually being directly threatened until the preemptive strike that was conducted. Yes they were under threat but the whole starter area felt more like the corsairs are more a problem than the three nations warring with one another.

As for the last part. The Elder Dragons are essentially threatening the same thing just they more content with feeding off magic first. Let’s face it if they devour all the magic in the world we’ll be essentially defenseless as there no super weapon to damage them.

My point is, none of our safe havens are threatened. DR, Hoelbrak, Grove, BC, and Rata Sum are never threatened. Claw Island, Vigil, Priory, and Whispers HQ aren’t really havens, the fact that they get attacked wasn’t so much a surprise as it was meant to be. The dragons are so lazy, so slow, they don’t do anything! Zhaitan should have permanently destroyed a settlement. Jormag, Primordius, and Kralkatorrik should DO something! Even if we just got news of their movements, but make them MOVE! Make them an impending threat.

If they destroyed one of the capital cities than the players of that race will call it unfair, just look at nearly every mmo where one ‘faction’ has something bad happen to it. To keep it ‘fair’ they could only have the Dragons threatened the neutral ground Lion’s Arch.

In GW1, what made the Charr, Mursaat, Shiro, Afflicted, Varesh, and the Destroyers so awesome was that they moved all over the place, destroying things wherever they go. They had a plan, a direction. That’s why the Great Destroyer was kinda just lame, he sat there waiting for us to go to him. Abaddon still has cool points because it was his planning, and its not like he had a choice, being chained by Balthazaar’s handcuffs. The Risen are pretty cool in this game, especially the one time Risen bosses in the story, like the Mouth of Zhaitan and the princes and priests. They have something to do. Zhaitan is soooooooo lazy. In Destiny’s Edge, Kralkatorrik got cool points because he woke up and the first thing he did was take care of business.

That the difference between a Villain and a Force of Nature. A Villain has motives and plans while a Force of Nature is unpredictable. The Great Destroyer had woken prematurely, or intentionally, to begin waking up its master. It had no need to move because it was in a position to begin the process. It sent its minions to strike at the creatures who called the area home due to them simply being in its way.

i do agree a bit with it, the cinematic where we ‘show zhaitan fear’ and defend Fort Trinity, showed have shown a bit more of zhaitan getting raged instead of just dialogue, or a drawing with his concept art.

i do think Jormag and kralkatorrik are already more personal than zhaitan ever was.
with Jormag driving norn away and that corruption close to hoelbrak. doesnt the claw of jormag fly over the lower level areas in the shioverpeaks dropping crystals to destroy villages? (that should happen a bit more)
kralkatorrik already ravaged charr lands, bit far away from the citadel. branded dont really go far away from that dragonbrand. but i see that hapen in the future.

and we have that teeth of jormag in hoelbrak:P

I’m so happy I managed to spark up an interesting conversation here, thanks for all the input guys, but yeah my point still stands.
Some of you said Zhaitan did a lot of things to the lands we travel across and that Zhaitan took a lot of lives, but no, he didn’t. The risen took all of those lives and the risen attacked the lands, Zhaitan was just kinda hiding somewhere in Orr trying to get some food and that’s really it.
As for Claw island and Sieran/Tybalt/Forgal, no, Zhaitan did not even touch them. They just wandered in to give us some time. This had nothing to do with Zhaitan or even the risen. That scene was about their sacrifice and nothing else. They would’ve done the same if it was any other enemy. Do you understand that?
Now, if i saw Zhaitan crushing them with his jaws, and if there were more survival/horror quests where I had to hide/run from Zhaitan, that would make me hate/fear him and he would be a better villain.

Narcemus.1348:

So, for a villain to be interesting they have to be human?

I am not saying Zhaitan has to be human or anything like that, I am just saying that he has to have a personal impact on the player.

Hopefully they’ll make the rest of the dragons extra juicer to make up for zhaitan’s missing personalitits.

Just FYI, Zhaitan does actually make -some- kind of personal attack on you. There’s a 55/55/54 event where a veteran Risen Brute spawns (Risen Commander) with special quotes depending on your order mentor. Go to the bottom of Bloodtide around Whisperwill Bogs or something like that.

Side note,I think ANet admitted that the Zhaitan fight was lame because they were pressed for time.

I think the major issue with Zhaitan is lack of “direct” connection to your personal character rather than knowing your “hero” is his direct threat. Zhaitan is as much worried about you as he is Evon in Lions Arch.

I think for him to be compelling, he would had been directly threatened by us, and us by him. The age of games as steered away from that (according to interviews, conversations by ANet), that the story telling in a way “you” are the hero, versus “they” are heroes.

In a nutshell Zhaitan portrayed a sense of “indirect” threat moreover than a “direct threat” He threatened everyone and the world, but he had no personal nemesis (you).

Also correct was the crunch time to release and Zhaitan had to be finished.

Gnat.9405:

So are you upset at how Zhaitan is portrayed (as a force of nature) or the fact that he (a force of nature) had no character. I think you’re answering your own question. Coming from various other games, I think it’s just difficult to adjust to the mentaility of what these enemies really are. The fact that they don’t necessarily have intentions, and that they just “are” is a difficult concept to grasp when you add the hero aspect.

Showed as it is, is just boring.

I played Dragon Age: Origins (what I say doesn’t count Awakening, which was nevertheless a great expantion, IMHO). You know what was the most boring part? Who were the most boring enemies? The Darkspawn. And the Archdemon. They are kinda like Zhaitan in the game. You don’t really know why they do what they do. So it all ends up into farming them all.

Yeah, some fights were fun. Not Lore parts. I didn’t grow to hate them as I did with demons, or Logan, or the Queen. Or the whole Chant of light, for all that matters (I played a Mage, so I had good reasons to hate templars more than Darkspawn XD).

The problem is not whether it makes sense or not. The problem is: is it fun?

All good narratives have good antagonists.

Force of Nature can be a good antagonist, but only if it is dire, urgent, and personal loss occurs.

The problem with the story so far, is that there is no sense of urgency or personal loss.

what would have been awesome and made me really hate zhaitan is if they brought back your mentor as an undead champion as you pushed into orr. Such as when you try to ambush the eye. how would you feel facing your mentor, Tybalt for example (everone loves that guy) who has been completely corrupted and warped into a sadistic evil nemesis of sorts and you have to fight him through out your push into orr such as at the sunken temple instead of a no name champion and at various other clutch points in the story. Have them kill off other characters right in front of you and generally try to get in your way. You give evil a face (especially a face you know and like) and you will hate it to the depths of your soul even if it is some gargantuan force of nature. That’s how they should have done it. It would have been far more personal and immersive at that point you would really want to kill zhaitan. As a finisher imagine fighting your old mentor on that giant airship surrounded by undead while zhaitan flyes over head. far more epic.

Singer.8740:

what would have been awesome and made me really hate zhaitan is if they brought back your mentor as an undead champion as you pushed into orr. Such as when you try to ambush the eye. how would you feel facing your mentor, Tybalt for example (everone loves that guy) who has been completely corrupted and warped into a sadistic evil nemesis of sorts and you have to fight him through out your push into orr such as at the sunken temple instead of a no name champion and at various other clutch points in the story. Have them kill off other characters right in front of you and generally try to get in your way. You give evil a face (especially a face you know and like) and you will hate it to the depths of your soul even if it is some gargantuan force of nature. That’s how they should have done it. It would have been far more personal and immersive at that point you would really want to kill zhaitan. As a finisher imagine fighting your old mentor on that giant airship surrounded by undead while zhaitan flyes over head. far more epic.

There actually IS an event in Bloodtide Coast where (presumably) your mentor comes back and attacks you.

lordkrall.7241:

Singer.8740:

what would have been awesome and made me really hate zhaitan is if they brought back your mentor as an undead champion as you pushed into orr. Such as when you try to ambush the eye. how would you feel facing your mentor, Tybalt for example (everone loves that guy) who has been completely corrupted and warped into a sadistic evil nemesis of sorts and you have to fight him through out your push into orr such as at the sunken temple instead of a no name champion and at various other clutch points in the story. Have them kill off other characters right in front of you and generally try to get in your way. You give evil a face (especially a face you know and like) and you will hate it to the depths of your soul even if it is some gargantuan force of nature. That’s how they should have done it. It would have been far more personal and immersive at that point you would really want to kill zhaitan. As a finisher imagine fighting your old mentor on that giant airship surrounded by undead while zhaitan flyes over head. far more epic.

There actually IS an event in Bloodtide Coast where (presumably) your mentor comes back and attacks you.

I know the one you mean but that’s not your mentor. the mob just mentions that you will soon be joining your mentor in death then attacks you. insidentally that event is also on a completely different scope from my idea.

mtpelion.4562:

All good narratives have good antagonists.

Force of Nature can be a good antagonist, but only if it is dire, urgent, and personal loss occurs.

The problem with the story so far, is that there is no sense of urgency or personal loss.

Lovecraftian novels don’t have much urgency, But the antagonists are incredible. And mostly unknown. They put together your lust for infinite knowledge with your fear of something whose power is endless, against whom you are helpless. And you understand what you thought was the whole world is just an insignificant particle in an ostile universe.

Something more than a mere “force of nature”.

Singer.8740:

I know the one you mean but that’s not your mentor. the mob just mentions that you will soon be joining your mentor in death then attacks you. insidentally that event is also on a completely different scope from my idea.

It is actually quite likely that it is indeed your mentor, seeing as those with the Order of Whispers meet an undead Charr and the Vigil meets an undead Norn and it is in the area around where he died.

lordkrall.7241:

Singer.8740:

I know the one you mean but that’s not your mentor. the mob just mentions that you will soon be joining your mentor in death then attacks you. insidentally that event is also on a completely different scope from my idea.

It is actually quite likely that it is indeed your mentor, seeing as those with the Order of Whispers meet an undead Charr and the Vigil meets an undead Norn and it is in the area around where he died.

its 100% not. ive done that event 5 times. apart from the fact that the mob talks about your mentor in the third person which without a doubt confirms its not your mentor, the event happens no were near were your mentor died. they died on claw island you fight this event in the south of the bloodtide coast. incidentally you can check the wiki.
heres a link to a video of the OoW version.
http://youtu.be/NjJYW1cv52g
this will clear up any and all speculation.

There is some emotional parts even if it isn’t directly tied to the player. The bomb expert dies blowing up the risin ship you have to tell his wife he died. The is a mission where a boyfriend sacrifices himself to save his girlfriend and they he comes back as a risen and you have to slay him. There is alot of emotional stuff that drives people to fight zitan even if it isn’t directed at the player. To point out the npcs would fight him even if the player wasn’t there your role is small in the big picture.

Fafnir.5124:

There is some emotional parts even if it isn’t directly tied to the player. The bomb expert dies blowing up the risin ship you have to tell his wife he died. The is a mission where a boyfriend sacrifices himself to save his girlfriend and they he comes back as a risen and you have to slay him. There is alot of emotional stuff that drives people to fight zitan even if it isn’t directed at the player. To point out the npcs would fight him even if the player wasn’t there your role is small in the big picture.

That’s all fine and dandy, but I still didn’t care. I felt bad for that asura, I felt bad for certain people who got turned to Risen, but I was fighting Zhaitan for story completion, not because of a reason. I went after the charr, Titans, Lich, Mursaat, Shiro, Afflicted, Varesh and Abaddon because they wrecked my comrades, they had us on the run, they corrupted my world. I saw firsthand the corruption of the Garden of Seborhim, I saw people I knew turn into Afflicted, I saw the charr summon burning crystals to destroy Ascalon. I understand having a small role in a big picture, but give me a reason to be in that small role.

This is the problem with Guild Wars 2: lots of telling, very little showing. In writing class, they tell us to show as much detail in real time as you can, don’t tell. To make your villain feel dangerous and significant, show how dangerous and significant he is. The best analogy is probably Sauron from Lord of the Rings. Do you remember those awesome scenes when he was a giant floating eye? Nope. But I remember when they showed him step onto the battlefield as his minions started losing and proceed to curbstomp everything in his immediate vicinity. That scene set the tone for the whole movie: “They’re trying to stop a powerful dark lord from returning to life” not “Mr. Goofy Eye wants to rule the world.” Sauron as a physical being is a terrific villain for the 30 seconds that he’s onscreen. Him as a giant eye is a force of nature that would’ve been silly if we didn’t establish beforehand just how powerful he is.

Raising Orr from the ocean is pretty intense, but not enough. Zhaitan couldn’t kill at least one airship in his entrance? Not one? He broke the front of the one we were riding on and that’s it. He didn’t even fly in for another attack. Imagine if in the opening scene of Lord of the Rings, Sauron just knocked one person’s helmet off…. and then got torn to shreds by everyone else including the now helmetless person. That’s what Zhaitan did.

Gregorius.1024:

Fafnir.5124:

There is some emotional parts even if it isn’t directly tied to the player. The bomb expert dies blowing up the risin ship you have to tell his wife he died. The is a mission where a boyfriend sacrifices himself to save his girlfriend and they he comes back as a risen and you have to slay him. There is alot of emotional stuff that drives people to fight zitan even if it isn’t directed at the player. To point out the npcs would fight him even if the player wasn’t there your role is small in the big picture.

That’s all fine and dandy, but I still didn’t care. I felt bad for that asura, I felt bad for certain people who got turned to Risen, but I was fighting Zhaitan for story completion, not because of a reason. I went after the charr, Titans, Lich, Mursaat, Shiro, Afflicted, Varesh and Abaddon because they wrecked my comrades, they had us on the run, they corrupted my world. I saw firsthand the corruption of the Garden of Seborhim, I saw people I knew turn into Afflicted, I saw the charr summon burning crystals to destroy Ascalon. I understand having a small role in a big picture, but give me a reason to be in that small role.

This is the problem with Guild Wars 2: lots of telling, very little showing. In writing class, they tell us to show as much detail in real time as you can, don’t tell. To make your villain feel dangerous and significant, show how dangerous and significant he is. The best analogy is probably Sauron from Lord of the Rings. Do you remember those awesome scenes when he was a giant floating eye? Nope. But I remember when they showed him step onto the battlefield as his minions started losing and proceed to curbstomp everything in his immediate vicinity. That scene set the tone for the whole movie: “They’re trying to stop a powerful dark lord from returning to life” not “Mr. Goofy Eye wants to rule the world.” Sauron as a physical being is a terrific villain for the 30 seconds that he’s onscreen. Him as a giant eye is a force of nature that would’ve been silly if we didn’t establish beforehand just how powerful he is.

Raising Orr from the ocean is pretty intense, but not enough. Zhaitan couldn’t kill at least one airship in his entrance? Not one? He broke the front of the one we were riding on and that’s it. He didn’t even fly in for another attack. Imagine if in the opening scene of Lord of the Rings, Sauron just knocked one person’s helmet off…. and then got torn to shreds by everyone else including the now helmetless person. That’s what Zhaitan did.

Sauron and Zhaitan aren’t comparable. Sauron is a villain in the traditional sense. During Lord of the Rings the reason we didn’t see him do anything was because he had been previous defeated and was unable to do anything. He was essentially Abaddon except his prison was in the very world he wanted to conquer. Now if his plan succeeded we would of seen the return of this armored villain wrecking armies with one swing of a mace. Zhaitan and the Elder Dragons are nothing more than destructive forces of magic. We see them corrupting our world by their own rules. In Zhaitan’s case the dead rise once more as Risen and attack their former kin.

As for a reason for the small role it obvious. You, along with every player in the game, are part of a new generation that has to make their way through a world threatened by draconic creatures we do not understand. A world that also has it share of problems unrelated to these creatures.

Now I know many aren’t happy about the way the final battle was presented, with some thinking he may still be alive. But I am curious what if this has become intended. The Elder Dragons are ‘forces of nature’ to us but I haven’t seen anything resembling a hurricane. A few rumbling thunderous showers but nothing I could call a storm. Perhaps they the ‘calm’ before the real storm. Perhaps they herald something more ancient and more destructive. The Mursaat sacrificed humans to keep the Titans sealed, yet they did nothing about these dragons. Surely a race as ancient as they are would of taken the time to try and formulate precautions. Same with the Forgotten they didn’t focus on preparing the world for the Elder Dragons awakening. Only the dwarves seem to have taken precautions, yet even they didn’t know what their ancestors were referring to.

Could it be possible then that these dragons are actually the minions of something more fearsome. What could silence the gods of humanity? If Arachnia and those insectoid gods existed, what killed them and their worshippers? If one truly needs a “personal” reason to involve themselves in fighting Zhaitan or any Elder Dragon there plenty of reasons within Lore to do so.

Spoiler alert
Just saying your brothers and sisters who fight beside you die left and right and return as risen you have to kill. Almost every act of living story is like that people sacrificing themselves so the pact can advance. it is surprising that the army even made it to Zhaitan at all. Just because you don’t empathize with the people dying around you doesn’t mean they arn’t dying in the thousands. The fight with Zhaitan was not without loss is what I am trying to point out. We didn’t even inflict damage on him, we shot of his wings which are the weakest point of dragon and destroyed mountain he was on so he took fall damage->and then supposedly died. Fall damage increases with mass. It was exactly like “How you trained your dragon” ended without the fire.

Fafnir.5124:

Spoiler alert
Just saying your brothers and sisters who fight beside you die left and right and return as risen you have to kill. Almost every act of living story is like that people sacrificing themselves so the pact can advance. it is surprising that the army even made it to Zhaitan at all. Just because you don’t empathize with the people dying around you doesn’t mean they arn’t dying in the thousands. The fight with Zhaitan was not without loss is what I am trying to point out. We didn’t even inflict damage on him, we shot of his wings which are the weakest point of dragon and destroyed mountain he was on so he took fall damage->and then supposedly died. Fall damage increases with mass. It was exactly like “How you trained your dragon” ended without the fire.

Oh I dunno about the fall damage part.Dragons ARE reptilian after all and magical enough to attempt world domination and defy physics.Toss a lizard down a staircase and it’ll probably just run off after giving you a dirty look; a story writer could come up with any number of ways to bring a dragon back.What we needed in the story was a surefire way of checking if the kittener was really dead.Point blank elimination check.Coup de grace.He surely is dead and would be super lame is we had to kill him again,buut doubts linger But Anet will make up for the anticlimax while fighting the rest of the dragons…hopefully xD

Do a force calculation energy at impact is exponential with mass(maybe not) demonstration of relative height fall. Ant falls off table(still alive) person jumps off cliff dead.

The mountain Zitain was on was above the clouds which makes it minimum of 1.2miles high or more(based on height of cumulus clouds).

If you watch myth busters damage from g force of fall is only mitigated by slowing the deceleration at impact and it is physically impossible to decelerate using padding or shielding for example from magic. If Zitain didn’t slow his decent i garentee he is dead cause impact will liquifie enternals regardless of armor or magic.

Fafnir.5124:

Do a force calculation energy at impact is exponential with mass(maybe not) demonstration of relative height fall. Ant falls off table(still alive) person jumps off cliff dead.

The mountain Zitain was on was above the clouds which makes it minimum of 1.2miles high or more(based on height of cumulus clouds).

If you watch myth busters damage from g force of fall is only mitigated by slowing the deceleration at impact and it is physically impossible to decelerate using padding or shielding for example from magic. If Zitain didn’t slow his decent i garentee he is dead cause impact will liquifie enternals regardless of armor or magic.

Actually that is slightly incorrect. The scientific components are correct but the magical aspect isn’t. See Magic is a chaotic primal force that doesn’t obey laws as we understand it. To try and understand it we have developed ‘rules’ which magic is to be used. We normally call these ‘rules’ spells, from these spells we delve into the various disciplines of magic. Yet these ‘rules’ only restrict us in how we utilize magic. The Mursaat and various other ancient races have different means to utilize magic. The human gods and elder dragons also have different means of utilizing magic. It is entirely possible the impact itself didn’t kill Zhaitan but the disruption of his internal magical energies when he was struck by the weaponry specially made to damage the elder dragons. Even when dealing with Chaos Magic, as seen in the reactor, the magical energy will become highly volatile if disturbed in a significant manner. This normally has explosive results, again as seen with the reactor, yet there are notable exceptions.

Narcemus.1348:

So, for a villain to be interesting they have to be human?

You could simply look at Alduin from Skyrim to see a dragon who properly confronts the protagonist at various points in the game. However similar to Zhaitan, he had a pretty lackluster final battle too (Much better than Zhaitans though).

Magic and fantasy aside, from a biological point of view, the bigger and heavier a creature, the more vulnerable it is to falling. The internal bone structure easily snaps due to it’s own mass, and becomes an instrument of death in itself, as it pierces multiple organs in nasty ways.

But since we do not know what the Elder Dragons are made of, this is all just pointless speculation. One thing we do know how ever, some of the Elder Dragons have blood. If they have blood, this means they also must have veins, and an organ to pump said blood. So I think it is reasonable to assume that at least of the Elder Dragons of whom we know that they have blood, we can also assume they have organs. So there is definitely something there that can get horribly crushed during a fall.

Gnat.9405:

Varesh and Shiro are two of the most well developed villains I’ve ever encountered. Shiro (and for that matter the entire Factions story) was phenomenol.

Well, by Guild Wars standards… which aren’t very high standards. Because when compared to serious fantasy literature, the story is pretty poor, and so are it’s villains.

Turtle.4130:

Narcemus.1348:

So, for a villain to be interesting they have to be human?

You could simply look at Alduin from Skyrim to see a dragon who properly confronts the protagonist at various points in the game. However similar to Zhaitan, he had a pretty lackluster final battle too (Much better than Zhaitans though).

Because the protagonist is a single person who steals the souls of dragons. You want Zhaitan and the other elder dragons to bother taunting each and every player? I’m pretty sure they have better things to do then cater to a bunch of whiny players who feel neglected because they not getting the attention they believe they deserve. Besides it been said multiple times the Dragons aren’t evil which means they aren’t even villains. They’re basically Tyria’s response to growing magic. Magic grows to such a degree the Dragons wake up and consume magic as well as all life they can find. The real villains it seems are the inquest who are more than content to watch us fight against the elder dragons and each other while they silently work towards their own goals in peace. Sure we do have some confrontations with them, especially for Asura players, but they still permitted to exist by the Arcane Council and other races leadership.