Guild Wars 2

Before anyone rakes me for this, I did search for a topic on my upcoming question and didn’t find anything I thought was close. What claim do these 6 “gods” have to that title? Of course humans currently and in GW1 worshiped them gods, but even these beings call themselves gods. (i.e. cut scene after the Shiro/Lich mission in Nightfall)

Do we have any lore that tells us why they are gods? I read the Wiki and did a Google search but nothing I found gives me a clue to their “deity” other than humans worshiping them as such.

A great question, and one I’ve often wondered as well. It fit in GW1, as they were pretty much all there was, but now, seem seem much less “godly” and instead just more “powerful entity”.

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

We do know that their power is very strong. The Kormir stepped in to absorb Abbaddons power was it would caused massive destruction if it was allowed to blow.

Their realms if I am not mistaken are in the mist. This would suggest the original deities were from the mist. Whether or not the ones we know are the original mist beings or a being that surplanted one we don’t know.

My personal theory (nothing to back it up) is the original deities are from the mist, have their realms there. They then moved out into existing world/planes/realities and the being there started worshiping them. Also the power they hold is what makes them who they are not who they are in themselves. We see that by knowing Grenth taking over Dhumm or Kormir replacing Abaddon.

Also another idea would be they are being from another place that found this power in the mist.

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

Is stabbing a defeated, chained down god while searing him with fireballs, a natural death?

If you look at ancient mythology you will find that gods are merely powerful beings with the same flaws as humans and plenty of cases of misbehaviour.

The GW gods are behaving more like i would expect gods to behave, except for the little fact that it’s YOU who has to help them out all the time (in GW1). So, from a mythological point of view possessing supernatural powers alone makes them qualify as “gods”. And other races like the Charr just see them as that, beings of supernatural power.

I also think that humanity must have benefitted from direct actions of the gods once, so they earned their titles in the eyes of humanity. Even in GW1 one can get various buffs from their statues, although one has to pay them for it.

Now should we go on seeing them as gods in GW2, i am not sure of that.

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

Is stabbing a defeated, chained down god while searing him with fireballs, a natural death?

You got me wrong. I’m saying they cannot die, even unnaturally.

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

Is stabbing a defeated, chained down god while searing him with fireballs, a natural death?

You got me wrong. I’m saying they cannot die, even unnaturally.

But.. he got killed. Kormir absorbed his power, but didn’t become him.

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

Is stabbing a defeated, chained down god while searing him with fireballs, a natural death?

You got me wrong. I’m saying they cannot die, even unnaturally.

But.. he got killed. Kormir absorbed his power, but didn’t become him.

Kormir absorbed his power, but I’m not sure if he died. He could’ve become just powerless. And he could’ve been put in some kind of slumber like Dhum, just by different means.
I think we don’t have proof, beyond reasonable doubt that he died when we struck him down.

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

Is stabbing a defeated, chained down god while searing him with fireballs, a natural death?

You got me wrong. I’m saying they cannot die, even unnaturally.

But.. he got killed. Kormir absorbed his power, but didn’t become him.

Kormir absorbed his power, but I’m not sure if he died. He could’ve become just powerless. And he could’ve been put in some kind of slumber like Dhum, just by different means.
I think we don’t have proof, beyond reasonable doubt that he died when we struck him down.

The cinematic actually hint that he indeed isn’t dead. This is what matters in my opinion:

’
<Party leader>: “Abaddon?”
Kormir: “No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day.”
’

I don’t think it is equal to Dhuum either. Dhuum got sealed away (and re-sealed). Abaddon is different. He got robbed of all his powers. What there is left of him is unknown.

mercury ranique.2170:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

Ludovicus.7980:

Gandarel.5091:

They’ve been nerfed to make other races to feel better by removing things from the lore, like they are no longer credited with creating the world.

However, controlling the elements, having power over your soul, having their own realms, and also having the ability to give magic or seal that away from every single race is something that is definitely something. This means they aren’t just powerful magic users but control magic itself.

Also, they are immortals (can’t die naturally).

Did Abaddon die?

Is stabbing a defeated, chained down god while searing him with fireballs, a natural death?

You got me wrong. I’m saying they cannot die, even unnaturally.

But.. he got killed. Kormir absorbed his power, but didn’t become him.

Kormir absorbed his power, but I’m not sure if he died. He could’ve become just powerless. And he could’ve been put in some kind of slumber like Dhum, just by different means.
I think we don’t have proof, beyond reasonable doubt that he died when we struck him down.

The cinematic actually hint that he indeed isn’t dead. This is what matters in my opinion:

’
<Party leader>: “Abaddon?”
Kormir: “No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day.”
’

I don’t think it is equal to Dhuum either. Dhuum got sealed away (and re-sealed). Abaddon is different. He got robbed of all his powers. What there is left of him is unknown.

Well stated.

I do have to point out that Jeff Grubb came out and stated that Abaddon is dead, flat out dead. I sadly do not have the link though, but hopefully one of the elder lorekeepers can help me out there. I checked the wiki and didn’t find the link I am looking for.

OP: We don’t know exactly. What we do know is that the mantle of godhood is permanent. So this indicates that they are something more than just “powerful aliens”. We also know that a-net indicates that godhood is a somewhat relative term based on whether they are worshipped or not. But the caveat to that is just because something is worshiped doesn’t specificically make it a god, as the grawl have shown us. So I guess the answer lies somewhere in out own history of godhood. Would the ancient greek gods still be considered gods just because nobody worships them anymore? I would say yes. A god seems to be a powerful being with some sort of supernatural origin that presides over some element of the world. So depending on the exact source of the mantle of godhood, if it came from the mists (which is stated to be the building blocks of reality) then the mists seem very supernatural and mystic. Just because they are still some sort of deity that presides over worldly affairs, with supernaturtal origins.

edit: actually, we do have some sort of answer. They are gods because each one hold the mantle of godhood. A mantle that is permanent even if the personality that holds the mantle can be destoyed and replaced.

@Dustfinger. Great answer! But how do we know the mantle of godhood is permanent?

I guess to clarify my question a bit (and I know we don’t know the answer) did they give the mantle to themselves or did humans (or others) give it to them? They certainly didn’t shy away from the title no matter how they came about it.

I just thought of this. One indication that they are in fact deities is that Kormir’s avatar obviously adopted the mantle of godhood. And since she is the goddess of truth, I doubt she would lie about being a god.

it was in an interview. i’ll try to find it. There were no specifics about the origin of the mantle, only that it is permanent.

edit: I can’t find it right now but i’m currently in the midst of breaking down and categorizing all the links I’ve collected, for easier reference. Hopefully I’ll come across it soon.

I think by mantle of godhood, Dustfinger is talking about the magic contained within the “god” that creates it. I do believe that the mantle of godhood can be destroyed. I think that is exactly what was going to happen to Abaddon’s magic had Kormir not stepped in. Think of it like an atomic bomb, large amounts of energy that has been concentrated now suddenly being released, the devastation would be vast, but in the end the original could never be pieced back together. This is just a theory, but it makes sense that once Abaddon’s magic had been released, it would seem to be gone forever, at least as it was.

Keep in mind that, traditionally, the word god simply refers to a governing being of a higher plane of existence – usually the afterlife – who is capable of making and taking life, and either naturally or has a means to not age.

In short, outside of the monotheistic gods, the term god simply refers to a being of great power that governs aspects of reality.

The Six Gods do this – they do not age, to our knowledge; Grenth may, but he’s a half-god. They govern an aspect of life (War, Death, Life, Nature, Beauty/Illusion, and Knowledge). And they live on another plane of existence (afterlife) – though they once lived among mortals.

However, the main thing for the Six Gods is their power. The power itself is indestructible, and without containment of a living being (?) it would explode and destroy everything – supposedly, that is. Such hasn’t happened, but we have seen the magical energy of a god (Abaddon’s) going haywire before Kormir stepped into it to absorb it. In terms of GW, you can more or less define the word “god” as “a container for indestructible power that must be contained or else” and “false god” as “powerful being that is worshiped” with “half-god” being “child of a container for indestructible power that must be contained or else” (we really have no clue what would have happened if Grenth was killed off, or why he would be considered a half-god unless some of Dwayna’s indestructible power “seeped” into him while he was in her womb – which is highly likely, and thus Grenth would have a little of that indestructible power).

Narcemus.1348:

I do have to point out that Jeff Grubb came out and stated that Abaddon is dead, flat out dead. I sadly do not have the link though, but hopefully one of the elder lorekeepers can help me out there. I checked the wiki and didn’t find the link I am looking for.

here it is. This isn’t the interview but it references that interview.

I remembered that in one interview Grubb had mentioned that he felt that killing Abaddon in Guild Wars Nightfall was the wrong decision. Clearly it closed doors that Grubb was not ready to close. http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/03/18/gw2-pax-chat-with-jeff-grubb/

The “interview” actually wasn’t such, but rather the 2006 PAX Panel. Anet should still have the 6 part videos of it on their youtube page, I think it was the second video but not sure.

There was another confirmation, because someone felt the need to have him clarify it, since his statement in the PAX Panel was along the lines of “I wish we could have had Abaddon redeemed, but it was necessary that he wasn’t” – the death of Abaddon was only implied – and said person wanted clarification that they actually did kill Abaddon off for good, to end some debates that were happening at the time iirc.

Sadly, I don’t recall where said interview was.

Dustfinger.9510:

Narcemus.1348:

I do have to point out that Jeff Grubb came out and stated that Abaddon is dead, flat out dead. I sadly do not have the link though, but hopefully one of the elder lorekeepers can help me out there. I checked the wiki and didn’t find the link I am looking for.

here it is. This isn’t the interview but it references that interview.

I remembered that in one interview Grubb had mentioned that he felt that killing Abaddon in Guild Wars Nightfall was the wrong decision. Clearly it closed doors that Grubb was not ready to close. http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/03/18/gw2-pax-chat-with-jeff-grubb/

Well it says that that comment was a clarification he regretted. And since there’s nothing written in the lore that actually denies Abaddon’s reappearance, they could go tabula rasa about that subject and resurrect him any time.
From my point of view, interviews are good for understanding the lore, but they’re not a reliable source. Writers can change their minds if nothing is written yet.

Ludovicus.7980:

Well it says that that comment was a clarification he regretted. And since there’s nothing written in the lore that actually denies Abaddon’s reappearance, they could go tabula rasa about that subject and resurrect him any time.
From my point of view, interviews are good for understanding the lore, but they’re not a reliable source. Writers can change their minds if nothing is written yet.

Eh….Writers can change their mind if something is written. But if the company gives a word-of-god stance on any subject, lore communities tend to take that as the highest reliability possible.

True…but I would think written or otherwise visual representation of something in the actual game takes precedence over an interview. After all, it’s the finished product(granted future editing certainly comes into play). Gamer conventions, or similar events, aren’t courtrooms or publishing houses. Their answers aren’t really expected to be set in stone.

Ya, but that just falls into the “new lore trumps old lore” category. Anyone can change their mind about anything but if we are looking for a reliable source of intentions, word-of-god is as reliable as it gets until it actually changes. Change is always possible so it doesn’t seem to work as a real reason to dismiss word-of-god. Otherwise, nothing has any degree of reliability reliable at all. And just as ‘there is no spoon’, there is no lore because of the ominous and ever present “it may change”.

Obsidian.1328:

True…but I would think written or otherwise visual representation of something in the actual game takes precedence over an interview. After all, it’s the finished product(granted future editing certainly comes into play). Gamer conventions, or similar events, aren’t courtrooms or publishing houses. Their answers aren’t really expected to be set in stone.

OMG! I can’t help but laugh that you state the actual game takes precedence when you look at the current game and just scoff at it!

That being said, when a lore and continuity designer tells me the guy is dead, I take it to mean that the guy is dead.

Narcemus.1348:

Obsidian.1328:

True…but I would think written or otherwise visual representation of something in the actual game takes precedence over an interview. After all, it’s the finished product(granted future editing certainly comes into play). Gamer conventions, or similar events, aren’t courtrooms or publishing houses. Their answers aren’t really expected to be set in stone.

OMG! I can’t help but laugh that you state the actual game takes precedence when you look at the current game and just scoff at it!

That being said, when a lore and continuity designer tells me the guy is dead, I take it to mean that the guy is dead.

Not if he regrets having said that.

He stated he regrets the fact that Abaddon had to die, but that in the end it was necessary. Thus he still stands by the decision even in his regret.

Dust

Well that’s one way to look at it, but I believe in a middle ground between absolutism and complete relativity. Is truth subjective or objective? It’s both imo.

As for taking word-of-god(in fiction) as truth until it actually gets changed…well that’s kinda personal preference. Sure it comes from the developer, but we don’t, and can’t, play these games verbally. Unless you’re doin old-school table-top D&D. :P

Narc

I didn’t say anything that counters my forum points of view. Almost all of my other posts talk about stuff visually and thematically inside the 2 video games, this discussion is between in-game evidence vs. developer utterance.

Obsidian.1328:

True…but I would think written or otherwise visual representation of something in the actual game takes precedence over an interview. After all, it’s the finished product (granted future editing certainly comes into play). Gamer conventions, or similar events, aren’t courtrooms or publishing houses. Their answers aren’t really expected to be set in stone.

The bold makes the game itself just as credible as an interview.

“Finished product”? No, the game is not the finished product. The living story and expansions are still coming, and can still alter the lore. The finished product will be when the series ends, for good. Until then, all lore in the game is subject to be expanded upon – from all games, and even the books.

Statements straight from the proverbial horse’s mouth is better than statements from fallible NPCs.

You must keep something in mind: What Jeff and other devs say is the state of the lore and the game as of that very moment, irrefutably. Can it change? Yes. But until it does change, it hasn’t as far as we’re informed, and in turn, concerned – otherwise, we can argue that anything has changed sense, and at that point I have every right in the universe to argue that Zhaitan is the name of Logan’s castrated kitten that went berseker. On the flip side, what NPCs in the game say is the state of their view and knowledge of the lore, meaning that they can be wrong.

TL;DR:

• The developers are never wrong in what they say until they decide to change it and no sooner.
• Until it is changed, what is the case, is the case.
• NPCs and other in-game sources are all fallible unless it is a first-hand knowledge (e.g., “I was doing this”) and they’re not lying. However, until countered or implied to be false, they should be treated as correct.

Ludovicus.7980:

Not if he regrets having said that.

What he regrets is that they had to kill him off, not that he regrets saying he’s dead.

The deed was done, and Jeff Grubb wishes they could have redeemed him instead. Abaddon was a character Jeff liked and saw more potential for. But what was said is that he’s dead.

Obsidian.1328:

I believe in a middle ground between absolutism and complete relativity. Is truth subjective or objective? It’s both imo.

Correct, and a developer’s statement is objective – if the statement is worded to be an uncertainty, then it’s an objective uncertainty.

It is the in-game sources – for example, the History of Tyria from the prophecies manuals, or Thruln the Lost in Hoelbrak – that are subjective.

And in both cases, it is a situation of “new lore trumps old lore; objective lore trumps subjective lore; new subjective lore calls old objective lore into question but does not trump it outright.”

The possibility of change is ever present. It’s a given that the devs can always change their mind about anything. So there’s no point to bringing it up at all because it’s very nature means it applies to all things. there’s a point when things just get ridiculous to point out.

Can a-net change the sylvari from being plants to being elves? yes. The possibility is ever-present that they might change their minds. Does that mean a-nets specific statements about not wanting the sylvari to be elves in their game is somehow rendered obsolete? Of course not. if we want to have any kind of discussion that doesn’t resemble drug induced yammering about the relativity of the universe we are going to need to involve practicality into the infinite possibilities of existencialism.

Konig

Hmm, I’m not so sure. These aren’t real-life subjects that anyone can verify though, it’s high fantasy. And until creators put stuff down into some intentional medium of virtual existence it’s really only true for that creator and not for anyone else. A writer can dream up all sorts of things in his head, but unless one of the mediums of his storytelling is, say, interviews, then it doesn’t really matter.

What he or she finally decides to put into the game is what matters, and becomes the “finished product” of his/her creative thoughts. And whatever future expansions or whatnot he or she dream up still stay just a personal existence until they decide to insert it into the game-world, because that world is the only place where it is supposed to exist. At which point it becomes “real” for all intensive purposes.

If Guild Wars was merely a song that Jeff Grub, for instance, dreamt up but never actually produced and sang…then it’s just a song that exists for him. Yeah he can tell his buddies all about this cool song he has, but until he actually writes it down and sings it, or someone else does lol, it’s just part of his mind. Heck he could even belt out a few lines for kicks, but that doesn’t give the whole song justice. We could even misinterpret what few lines he gives us because we have no context with which to examine it…it’s just pieces of the whole floating around with no meaning.

Now, how the various npc’s or whatever tell it in the game is really how the writer wants us to see how those npc’s see it. The ultimate truths of the game remain hidden until the writer(s) decides to reveal that to us gamers… through the lens of the game-world. Until then it’s all just heresay.

An earthquake could hit ANet studios and destroy everything and everyone that knows what is to be installed in a Guild Wars expansion, at which point whatever was said at any interview relating to future content becomes completely moot because it will never make it into the game.

I mean, what your saying is like if ANet had folded and dissolved right before development for GW2, then all that stuff they mentioned about a 3rd Guild Wars expansion with the meso-American theme(can’t remember the name right now!) is perfectly legit as game canon. That certainly wasn’t the case, was it?

I always assumed the gods were just people who had assumed a vast amount of magic to put them beyond humanity in a sense, so much in fact they could well control it through the creation of the Bloodstones. They’d managed to advance their own magic so much that well…normal humans if you will looked upon them as gods but they were eventually able to use this magic to extend their lifespan to near immortality.

Obsidian.1328:

Konig

Hmm, I’m not so sure. These aren’t real-life subjects that anyone can verify though, it’s high fantasy. And until creators put stuff down into some intentional medium of virtual existence it’s really only true for that creator and not for anyone else. A writer can dream up all sorts of things in his head, but unless one of the mediums of his storytelling is, say, interviews, then it doesn’t really matter.

What he or she finally decides to put into the game is what matters, and becomes the “finished product” of his/her creative thoughts. And whatever future expansions or whatnot he or she dream up still stay just a personal existence until they decide to insert it into the game-world, because that world is the only place where it is supposed to exist. At which point it becomes “real” for all intensive purposes.

If Guild Wars was merely a song that Jeff Grub, for instance, dreamt up but never actually produced and sang…then it’s just a song that exists for him. Yeah he can tell his buddies all about this cool song he has, but until he actually writes it down and sings it, or someone else does lol, it’s just part of his mind. Heck he could even belt out a few lines for kicks, but that doesn’t give the whole song justice. We could even misinterpret what few lines he gives us because we have no context with which to examine it…it’s just pieces of the whole floating around with no meaning.

Now, how the various npc’s or whatever tell it in the game is really how the writer wants us to see how those npc’s see it. The ultimate truths of the game remain hidden until the writer(s) decides to reveal that to us gamers… through the lens of the game-world. Until then it’s all just heresay.

An earthquake could hit ANet studios and destroy everything and everyone that knows what is to be installed in a Guild Wars expansion, at which point whatever was said at any interview relating to future content becomes completely moot because it will never make it into the game.

I mean, what your saying is like if ANet had folded and dissolved right before development for GW2, then all that stuff they mentioned about a 3rd Guild Wars expansion with the meso-American theme(can’t remember the name right now!) is perfectly legit as game canon. That certainly wasn’t the case, was it?

I fully agree with this.
And you can say that the product is finished when the song is recorded. Even though the rest of the album is not finished.
Like the already written lore and the lore yet to be written.

PS. The expansion was named Utopia

Alright then, Abaddon is alive.
Alien races will soon descend, destroy the elder dragons with quick shots of lasers and take over the world.
The DSD is really a My Little Pony doll… AND SO ARE HIS MINIONS!!!

All of this is equally true in your eyes, because none of it can be proven wrong. All of this could possibly happen, and none of you can stop me from saying it will! Muahahahaha!!!

Narcemus.1348:

Alright then, Abaddon is alive.
Alien races will soon descend, destroy the elder dragons with quick shots of lasers and take over the world.
The DSD is really a My Little Pony doll… AND SO ARE HIS MINIONS!!!

All of this is equally true in your eyes, because none of it can be proven wrong. All of this could possibly happen, and none of you can stop me from saying it will! Muahahahaha!!!

It’d be funny if the seers did that.
And I know, humans are the aliens in Tyria and the seers are the locals.
But aesthetically it would look like that.

About the DSD and his minions. OMG I was trying to get some game reference to his looks and now I cannot shake the my little pony doll image from my mind. It’s like the second “Charly the Unicorn” episode, when they go to the bottom of the sea.

Chaaarlyyyy… Chaaaaaaaaaarly… Charly!

Narcemus.1348:

Alright then, Abaddon is alive.
Alien races will soon descend, destroy the elder dragons with quick shots of lasers and take over the world.
The DSD is really a My Little Pony doll… AND SO ARE HIS MINIONS!!!

All of this is equally true in your eyes, because none of it can be proven wrong. All of this could possibly happen, and none of you can stop me from saying it will! Muahahahaha!!!

Well …….. I suppose it is possible for the devs to decide this. :P

Narcemus.1348:

Alien races will soon descend, destroy the elder dragons with quick shots of lasers and take over the world.

Change “Alien” to “Asuran” and “descend” to “ascend” and that kinda feels like GW2.

Nope Obsidian, this is my theory, and the asura aren’t alien enough. They need more tentacles and other strange stuff attached for it to work.

Narcemus.1348:

Nope Obsidian, this is my theory, and the asura aren’t alien enough. They need more tentacles and other strange stuff attached for it to work.

Do you mean the aliens that made the gods retreat from tyria? Those aliens lurking in the mists? Those which their race created the gods? Those aliens?

Narcemus.1348:

Nope Obsidian, this is my theory, and the asura aren’t alien enough. They need more tentacles and other strange stuff attached for it to work.

Karka back piece?

Obsidian.1328:

Narcemus.1348:

Nope Obsidian, this is my theory, and the asura aren’t alien enough. They need more tentacles and other strange stuff attached for it to work.

Karka back piece?

Brilliant!!

Lol, okay then. So it was asura with Sclerite gear that kicked the Elder Dragon’s tails in. They still descended from the sky though and they had the head of each god/spirit of the wild/koda/everything inside set up as a museum inside of the ship they rode in, which was called the Eternal Alchemy! And yes, this means that everything is a part of the Eternal Alchemy!!!!

Narcemus.1348:

I do have to point out that Jeff Grubb came out and stated that Abaddon is dead, flat out dead. I sadly do not have the link though, but hopefully one of the elder lorekeepers can help me out there. I checked the wiki and didn’t find the link I am looking for.

I know what you’re talking about, let me do some searching.

Edit: Okay, not quite your wording, I think it might be what Ravious was referring to. Here you go, a panel from 2008 celebrating 3 years of Guild Wars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGJvedNjZI0&feature=player_detailpage#t=423s

He’s answering a question: If you could rewrite lore, is there anything you would change?

Answer: I would have redeemed Abaddon. That was one of the things when we were originally doing the story for Nightfall, we were talking about, you know, would Abaddon be ultimately destroyed? Or would we find a way to redeem him and to bring him back? And we examined it, we turned it over and saw how it would go over in gameplay and came back to it again and again and we decided in the end that we had to kill him.

But if given another chance and a different set of resources, I think I would have gone for redemption.

…and I’m not Eld…I just have a good memory. :P

Obsidian.1328:

And until creators put stuff down into some intentional medium of virtual existence it’s really only true for that creator and not for anyone else.

I believe that an interview or written document counts as an “intentional medium” – why does it need to be virtual? If the maker says its the case, it’s the case. Arguing otherwise is just fanon discontinuity

Obsidian.1328:

A writer can dream up all sorts of things in his head, but unless one of the mediums of his storytelling is, say, interviews, then it doesn’t really matter.

Why does it not matter? You say this, but give no reasons. It’s what the writer wishes to be the case. Maybe he or she doesn’t put it into the medium of the story itself because he or she wants it to be figured out on the audience’s own accord, and only answer because it was asked?

Obsidian.1328:

Yeah he can tell his buddies all about this cool song he has, but until he actually writes it down and sings it, or someone else does lol, it’s just part of his mind.

Y’see, this sounds contradictory. If he’s talking about it, then it no longer exists solely within his mind, so it cannot be “just part of his mind.” It’s an unfinished product at that point, but it’s more than “just part of his mind.” By simply talking about it, it has left his mind, even if it isn’t in the final form. I concur with the partialness you said, but nonetheless it is out there.

And as I said, until it has decided to be changed, it hasn’t been changed.

Obsidian.1328:

Now, how the various npc’s or whatever tell it in the game is really how the writer wants us to see how those npc’s see it. The ultimate truths of the game remain hidden until the writer(s) decides to reveal that to us gamers… through the lens of the game-world. Until then it’s all just heresay.

Or through telling us directly from their own opening mouths. If I write a story that has an ambiguous meaning behind it that’s never explicitly said in the story, and you read it and then ask me what the meaning is, would me telling you the meaning behind the story be not an ultimate truth of the story?

No, it is still the meaning behind the story, even if it’s not said or shown directly in the story. And I told you from my own mouth – or through some other medium that wasn’t the story itself. It’s still part of the story, but yet it’s not part of the story itself. A bit confusing in wording, I’m sure, but I hope I’m clear enough. You certainly cannot go and tell me “no, that’s not the meaning behind your story – this is” because it’s my story, and what I decided for it is the truth of the story. I decided the objective, or ultimate as you put it, truth of the story. Whether I put that ultimate truth in the story or not is irrelevant – it’s there, it’s just not in your face.

Obsidian.1328:

An earthquake could hit ANet studios and destroy everything and everyone that knows what is to be installed in a Guild Wars expansion, at which point whatever was said at any interview relating to future content becomes completely moot because it will never make it into the game.

That’s an entirely different situation, and would be akin to saying I was in the process of writing a story, then some bloke kills me off and now that story will never be. That’s not the same as there being a hidden truth within the story that already exists – that’s about something that doesn’t yet exist. Two very different things, as I said.

Obsidian.1328:

I mean, what your saying is like if ANet had folded and dissolved right before development for GW2, then all that stuff they mentioned about a 3rd Guild Wars expansion with the meso-American theme(can’t remember the name right now!) is perfectly legit as game canon. That certainly wasn’t the case, was it?

Again, no I didn’t. As I said things are as they are until they have been changed. By the act of ArenaNet being hit by an earthquake preventing the next GW2 expansion, or me being killed preventing the completion of a story I’m writing, or ArenaNet cancelling Utopia changes what was the case. So no, I’m not saying that Utopia is fully canon in game. In fact, I’m saying that it’s not canon, because things have changed since Utopia was being developed.

A case of the new supplanting the old – the old being Utopia, the new being Eye of the North. What was to canon during Utopia’s development, shown in game or not (there were hints in Nightfall about Utopia), is no longer canon because Utopia wasn’t developed.

However, on the flip side, until we are told that Abaddon is alive, he is and will always be dead in canon.

Konig,
After bashing my head with you personally, seeing how others have issues with you, considering your 6 months ban on the official wiki in conflicts with people and being annoyed to the bone with your attitude I will try once more to help you on a path that your knowledge deserves.

Firts off all let me tell you that I envy your knowledge,especially when it comes to lore. You have the biggest amount of GW lore knowledge ever alive. I don’t give compliments easy, but you can take this in your pocket. Your main issue is however you approach it too black and white. You often don’t see possible reasons why even arenanet officials are saying what they are saying. Lore is important in how each and everyone of us live the game. My eyes are different then yours and we also have interpretations. For me personally are things I experience in the game a lot more important then things outside the game. For me personally the second in line are the books and lore articles. Third in line are statements of individual people and last are personal interpetations.

But for each and everyone of them I am always critical. I don’t know the video interview you are refering too, I don’t have a source (and I did search both in wiki talk pages and youtube and guru for a link). So I have to believe your word. I don’t however have the power to understand the context in wich he said what he said. I know a lot of people here are declaring Zhaitan not dead. Though they might have that fantasy (and in many cases hope), there is little proof to support it. Maybe (again i can’t verify that) back then a simular discussion was rising with wild assumptions how abadon was going to be the thriving force behind future stories, as he was i nthe past. Maybe the dev in question was so sick and tired he said what he said to get through to some stuborn heads. Context matters too.

The story itself leaves the question bout the fallen god open. GW2 lore also calls him a fvallen god and doesn’t declares him dead. This is what trahearne calls him: ’ Trahearne: Abbadon[sic], the human god of secrets, was cast out of Arah by the other deities, and his name was erased from history. Very little remained.’

(Dead means there is nothing left, he could be talking bout his temple, but i wouldnt call that very little that remains, cause its big and active and present). So It is my personal interpetation that he is talking bout the god himself.

The entire question isn’t black and white and there is a lot of room for personal interpetation. Besides that. the freedom we have to see it in our own fantasy and through our own eyes makes us individuals.

Don’t make the same mistake you made too many times allready. Enjoy your status of the biggest authority on lore, but also give others room to breathe. You don’t have to prove yourself, so why so insecure????

One distinction here between the analogy of the song that was never written and ingame lore is that even if we don’t directly see most of what’s in that 400 page lore bible that ArenaNet apparently has, what we do see has been built off foundations that are, in part, based off things we do see.

While it’s true that ArenaNet could change something that we haven’t directly seen, as long as that doesn’t make contradictions with things we as players have directly observed, the things we have seen are built on those foundations.

A better analogy would be Tolkein’s work. No-one outside of his family knew about the stuff in the Silmarillion before it got published, let alone the massive History of Middle Earth series that spans pretty much, well, the whole History of Middle Earth – however, the books that were published during his life – Hobbit and Lord of the Rings – were built on those foundations.

@mercury ranique: You really do know how to lay on the insults from the get go. Anyways, regarding how I see things about lore being black and white, well I’m not sure of the full context you’re referring to (I wouldn’t say I am that black and white about the possibilities, except for particularly annoying topics (like the god=dragon thingamajig) – and I can tell you I am far less black and white about it than certain individuals who post less than me here are), but regarding this topic, while I agree – mostly – with your “hierarchy of importance” I would have to say that it is my personal opinion that one cannot subjectively decide whether a piece of information is correct or not when there’s no implication to it being what it isn’t shown as.

Anyways, context for what Jeff Grubb was saying? This is the video at the start of the question, but what Jeff said was already quoted in this thread. The other interview, if I could remember where it was I would have posted it. I know full well that people used to theorize that Abaddon would return. Hell, I was among those who suspected he would return – through overpowering Kormir. But since Jeff Grubb’s statement I’ve since drawn back, because unlike those who constantly try to argue for debunked theories coughSixGodsareDragonscoughPaleTreeisaDragonChampioncough I move on. In this, I’d have to disagree with your claim that I’m “black and white about lore” – I just don’t ignore the facts and, apparently, have a wider range of remembrance about facts or where I can find them to reaffirm my knowledge.

And I’m going to have to outright call you out on the claim that GW2 lore only calls Abaddon a fallen god. Because it calls him dead too! In more than one place.

“This book’s title is “Good Gods: A Treatise on the Pecularities of Divinity”. The author emphasizes on the twinned nature of Lyssa and the “dead” or deposed gods, Abaddon and Dhuum."

“Exactly what I’d expect from the ancient temple of a dead god. "

mercury ranique.2170:

This is what trahearne calls him: ’ Trahearne: Abbadon[sic], the human god of secrets, was cast out of Arah by the other deities, and his name was erased from history. Very little remained.’

(Dead means there is nothing left, he could be talking bout his temple, but i wouldnt call that very little that remains, cause its big and active and present). So It is my personal interpetation that he is talking bout the god himself.

Er… Trahearne was talking about the events of the Exodus, not Nightfall. “Very little remained” was referring to the knowledge of Abaddon in history.

(Fun fact: on a quick GW2W search, Abaddon is never called a fallen god – just forgotten or dead).

mercury ranique.2170:

The entire question isn’t black and white and there is a lot of room for personal interpetation. Besides that. the freedom we have to see it in our own fantasy and through our own eyes makes us individuals.

I would agree with you – and if it were before Jeff’s statement, I would be still – but by now I think it’s rather proven that Abaddon is deader than dead.

And just because you can see it in your own fantasy, doesn’t make it canon. That only makes it fanon. And despite being a writer of fanon myself, I keep a fine line formed between canon and fanon.

P.S., I hardly consider myself the “biggest authority on lore” and I am hardly insecure – if I was insecure, I’d actually be working to agree with everyone, not ensure that they get the facts where there are such.

@ Mercury:

I feel that your hierarchy is correct, but the problem is that there is nothing on the first level of the hierarchy to debunk something that was said on the second or third tier. The statement by Trahearne was talking directly about his temple and knowledge, so the very little remained was obviously talking about these (you do not change subject of the sentence at the very end).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@mercury ranique: You really do know how to lay on the insults from the get go. Anyways, regarding how I see things about lore being black and white, well I’m not sure of the full context you’re referring to (I wouldn’t say I am that black and white about the possibilities, except for particularly annoying topics (like the god=dragon thingamajig) – and I can tell you I am far less black and white about it than certain individuals who post less than me here are), but regarding this topic, while I agree – mostly – with your “hierarchy of importance” I would have to say that it is my personal opinion that one cannot subjectively decide whether a piece of information is correct or not when there’s no implication to it being what it isn’t shown as.

Anyways, context for what Jeff Grubb was saying? This is the video at the start of the question, but what Jeff said was already quoted in this thread. The other interview, if I could remember where it was I would have posted it. I know full well that people used to theorize that Abaddon would return. Hell, I was among those who suspected he would return – through overpowering Kormir. But since Jeff Grubb’s statement I’ve since drawn back, because unlike those who constantly try to argue for debunked theories coughSixGodsareDragonscoughPaleTreeisaDragonChampioncough I move on. In this, I’d have to disagree with your claim that I’m “black and white about lore” – I just don’t ignore the facts and, apparently, have a wider range of remembrance about facts or where I can find them to reaffirm my knowledge.

And I’m going to have to outright call you out on the claim that GW2 lore only calls Abaddon a fallen god. Because it calls him dead too! In more than one place.

“This book’s title is “Good Gods: A Treatise on the Pecularities of Divinity”. The author emphasizes on the twinned nature of Lyssa and the “dead” or deposed gods, Abaddon and Dhuum."

“Exactly what I’d expect from the ancient temple of a dead god. "

mercury ranique.2170:

This is what trahearne calls him: ’ Trahearne: Abbadon[sic], the human god of secrets, was cast out of Arah by the other deities, and his name was erased from history. Very little remained.’

(Dead means there is nothing left, he could be talking bout his temple, but i wouldnt call that very little that remains, cause its big and active and present). So It is my personal interpetation that he is talking bout the god himself.

Er… Trahearne was talking about the events of the Exodus, not Nightfall. “Very little remained” was referring to the knowledge of Abaddon in history.

(Fun fact: on a quick GW2W search, Abaddon is never called a fallen god – just forgotten or dead).

mercury ranique.2170:

The entire question isn’t black and white and there is a lot of room for personal interpetation. Besides that. the freedom we have to see it in our own fantasy and through our own eyes makes us individuals.

I would agree with you – and if it were before Jeff’s statement, I would be still – but by now I think it’s rather proven that Abaddon is deader than dead.

And just because you can see it in your own fantasy, doesn’t make it canon. That only makes it fanon. And despite being a writer of fanon myself, I keep a fine line formed between canon and fanon.

P.S., I hardly consider myself the “biggest authority on lore” and I am hardly insecure – if I was insecure, I’d actually be working to agree with everyone, not ensure that they get the facts where there are such.

I’m not going to react to the (lore-related) content of what your saying. You are getting a good amount of people here who had enough of your ways. On Reddit people expressed this. On the Wiki you have a 6 month ban for not being able to communicate with people. You have a lot of respect for your knowledge. But many people rather see you go here. Just as you have been forced to leave the wiki.

I know this sounds harsh, but if people where saying that bout me I would try and do my best to change, but you seems to be so uncapable of selfreflecting it seems to be a lost case.

I know this is completely off-topic, but since the thread has already been derailed from the original, interestic discussion to a boring debate of semantics and personal insults, I don’t feel bad for writing this out:

In Konig’s defense, it is disgusting those reddit mooks talk behind someone else’s back (fortunately, I was always disgusted by that site, and now I have one more reason to avoid it) instead of saying it straight to his face here, or in PM.

I’m sure Konig will explain the dirty little details surrounding his unjust ban, but here’s the gist of it: that Santax guy was – for the lack of a more polite but equally expressing word – an idiot. I saw his “vandalism” and it is horrible how much he kitten’d lore by making his personal theories, mis- and preconceptions actual part of many high-level lore articles. Konig merely tried to revoke, counteract, edit, and clarify these mistakes, so less people would be led astray by false information. Santax didn’t like the fact that he got corrected by someone with better understanding of lore, and cancelled all of Konig’s corrections. Konig, being the stubborn – but right, most of the time – kitten he can be, did the same, and so they were both banned. When their first ban was lifted, Santax stalked Konig and realized that he’d been doing stuff on the wiki as an anonymus IP (as if it would be a crime punishable by death). In the end, his smart-kitten fingerpointing got himself and Konig blocked. You can read his pathetic last message that resulted in the 6-month-long ban here.

Konig’s only “flaw” is that the 7+ years of incredibly active and beneficial contribution to the lore society may (rather: must) have eroded his patience to nonsense, BS, debunked but necro’d theories, wrong information or understanding, etc. His aggressive-looking way of handling such can be offending at times, but I of all people know it best that his intention is not to be a rude kitten… it’s become his semi-signature way of handling things over those 7+ long years of being involuntarily – and to his own protest – declared a lore god by some. And that brings me to the last point:

You have the biggest amount of GW lore knowledge ever alive.

I find this way more insulting than anything Konig threw at me in the beginning of our interaction over at GW(2)Guru. Because it is very condescending with the forefathers (Quintus, Drax, Gmr Leon) and the newer generation of vicious lorehounds that were born and steeled in the fires of first Lore War at Guru2 (including yours truly).

Konig’s knowledge is enormous, but nowhere near unparalelled. He’s human, too, so he forgets things and has to be reminded of them. Drax an I have corrected him quite a few times over our careers. (And for example, not so long ago I had to refresh his memory on Kurzick history when he criticized the way I presented the pre-vassal-independence Kurzicks in my fan-fic novel.)

As I mentioned before, Konig is maybe overly active on these forums, and as such it may look like he knows more than the rest of us – which is not the case. This activity is what spawned the thought in the head of many that he’s some sort of lore god, and the very same activity is why he clashes with people just as stubborn as him. Like it happened in 2009 and 2010 when the two of us were at each other’s throats the whole time about basically everything. Our quote wars resulted in the intervention of the very admins of GW2Guru. We were both kitten at each other, but now? We are writing a grand fan-fiction encompassing almost the whole of GW lore together. He’s a rather nice guy and can be compromisng and friendly even when we greatly disagree in some aspects of lore.

And thus I rest my case.