Guild Wars 2

Glad you like it. The story of the 1st GW is very well witten i think.

The problem with GW2 is the ‘balanced writing’ I think. They must focus equal amount on all 5 races, and make ‘fair setups’, thus destroying 80% of human kingdoms because it was needed for GW2 to be fair for all races… also, they can’t just make an awesome story for 5-6 months on Kryta, they feel like they have to throw random stories, random characters and random threats at us on random locations all around the continent.

But that’s what they should do. Make longer stories. Every race could have it’s time, but would add a depth to the stories.

I’m the fan of Ascalon (and a charr hater), so I would really want to see a longer LS on the Treaty for example, and I really hope they will reclaim Drascir. They could connent the 2 parts of Ascalon with an asura gate. Easy.

Other thing, the Sylvari. They are new so they are pushing them. They lead the pact, they are the main evil in the LS and so on.

I think they’ve got a problem with the personal story locking down a lot of the game content, so that it can’t be changed with the living story. However that doesn’t explain the shallowness of some of the story lines. Perhaps the game is being designed with monsters and mechanics designed first and then stories written afterwards. Perhaps product planning for GW2 is uncertain and the writers don’t know what writing is needed. Perhaps the writers are creating good lore but managers are cutting parts out to concentrate on marketable events. Really however the story should be written and reviewed long in advance of an update reaching our game so that voice acting, art and animation, new game mechanics, etc can all be done in time.

I think that when Arenanet decided to step away from “old-school” MMO quests they were visioning a much more interactive way of telling you the massive amounts of lore hidden in long text walls. Instead of being told what was going on, they wanted us to be able to see it happen through the dynamic events. This is a wonderful idea that makes Tyria feel alive, but there are a few downsides to it:

1. No full replacement for text walls
It would be very difficult to make the same amount of details that were found in the GW quest texts actually visible through gameplay, and thus the depth of the GW2 lore has suffered from this decision. We simply have no real alternative to completely replace quest texts in terms of backstory and details to fully understand what we see happening on the screen; the result is plots and stories throughout the world appearing more shallow than before.

2. Rushed story content
Because it’s harder to present a story by showing it to you instead of telling you (making cutscenes, animations, voice acting, bug fixes) there just might not be enough time to create good and compelling storylines, especially not every two weeks aside all the other updates going into the game. They’ve chosen an expensive and time consuming way to tell the lore, and when they put in the resources to do this well it becomes amazing (I think the early human personal story levels are good examples) – but sometimes it feels like they don’t, and many storylines and characters feel like they could have been so much more if they had received more attention.

Unlike Gandaral, I disagree that GW1 had well written. Prophecies was overly predictable and Factions point-blank.

But it was better than GW2. I think nostalgia just makes it seem better than it truely was with gw1 gerribad voice acting (Not just factions, Prophecies too! But so is GW2… ANet needs to find better voice actors).

But anyways… ANet has had problems relying on out of games document since Prophecies. You get as much, if not more, lore out of the game than in it. GW2 is “worse” because of two things, at least by my view:

1. They lowered the amount of reading text. This reduces the chances they actually have to show lore because voice acting costs more money. They also replaced one-time quests with many-times events, meaning that they must be geared as much as possible to “being repeated events”.
2. They dumbed things down. A lot. Made it simpler and easier to understand. You don’t need to read the books or play the first game to know what’s happening in gw2… Which is imo bad. Another case of dumbing down – when the game was being revealed bit by bit in promotion, the official site’s lore on races and professions was large. A good summary of their placement in the world. Close to release, it became what it is – next to no lore and simple descriptions of mechanics. Another example is the bio – we were told it was originally to be 10 questions, not 5. But those additional questions either got removed or placed in the game itself (I suspect the fear was to be a bio question).

At some point during development of gw2, it seems that ANet decided to dumb things down a lot. This made it easier to understand the main plot. But at the same time you lost the depth of the story.

Ingame i met an NPC named Jhavi Jorasdottir today, apparently a descendant of Jora from GW1, i would like to hear more about her and her familiy history, but there just isn’t (i disliked that she only told me where to find the latrine in Vigil Keep – a bit more interaction would have been great). But new players will not even notice she exists at all – i guess the majority of players doesn’t care a lot about the lore, so why give more details…

There is not much of a difference imo between how lore was presented in GW1 and 2 – in the original GW game one often had to draw connections oneself, read between the lines, and interpret things for oneself, especially in the Prophecies campaign. Only when looking back onto what had happened and having a “bigger picture” did many pieces fall into place (it was somewhat better in Factions and Nightfall). When playing the game without having an eye onto the lore (or not caring about it) one could easily lose the feeling of continuity, and the campaign felt like it was pieced together from several storylines. So don’t expect GW1 to be more lore-friendly than GW2, just saying…

Neither is the lore presented in a worse way in GW2 than in the original game imo. I would like to be given more background information, ingame or through other sources, but i assume not that many people care about the lore that much, and the people at ANet have their hands full with plenty of things. I also assume that plenty of information is being held back, for later use. At least i hope so.

So why is GW2 so “lore-unfriendly” to new players? It’s kinda the same as in GW1, people interested in the lore have to look for it themselves, while most players don’t care much about it. It has improved, with 3 novels and short-stories like the recent one about Ceara. Also, for fans of the lore there can never be enough information i guess…

Frosch.7809:

Ingame i met an NPC named Jhavi Jorasdottir today, apparently a descendant of Jora from GW1, i would like to hear more about her and her familiy history, but there just isn’t (i disliked that she only told me where to find the latrine in Vigil Keep – a bit more interaction would have been great). But new players will not even notice she exists at all – i guess the majority of players doesn’t care a lot about the lore, so why give more details…

There is not much of a difference imo between how lore was presented in GW1 and 2 – in the original GW game one often had to draw connections oneself, read between the lines, and interpret things for oneself, especially in the Prophecies campaign. Only when looking back onto what had happened and having a “bigger picture” did many pieces fall into place (it was somewhat better in Factions and Nightfall). When playing the game without having an eye onto the lore (or not caring about it) one could easily lose the feeling of continuity, and the campaign felt like it was pieced together from several storylines. So don’t expect GW1 to be more lore-friendly than GW2, just saying…

Neither is the lore presented in a worse way in GW2 than in the original game imo. I would like to be given more background information, ingame or through other sources, but i assume not that many people care about the lore that much, and the people at ANet have their hands full with plenty of things. I also assume that plenty of information is being held back, for later use. At least i hope so.

So why is GW2 so “lore-unfriendly” to new players? It’s kinda the same as in GW1, people interested in the lore have to look for it themselves, while most players don’t care much about it. It has improved, with 3 novels and short-stories like the recent one about Ceara. Also, for fans of the lore there can never be enough information i guess…

Looks like I’ll have to get the books then

EchenSketch.9142:

Looks like I’ll have to get the books then

If you are interested in the lore of the game, then yes, get them, they are a must for fans.

Ghosts of Ascalon, Edge of Destiny, Sea of Sorrows in case you didn’t know the titles.

Frosch.7809:

There is not much of a difference imo between how lore was presented in GW1 and 2 – in the original GW game one often had to draw connections oneself, read between the lines, and interpret things for oneself, especially in the Prophecies campaign. […]

Neither is the lore presented in a worse way in GW2 than in the original game imo.

Its presentation is mostly the same, true; though GW2 has a heavier usage of subjective truth than GW1 does. But the main difference between the two games is quantity. GW2’s lines to read between are fewer and harder to fine, IMO.

There’s quite a lot of lore in the game, don’t get me wrong. It’s just that it’s less up-front than GW1. By far. And what there is, is often hidden in talking to NPCs during events when folks probably wouldn’t do so – like Protect Explorer Harlow while he finds the Dragon’s Eye – if you don’t talk to him, you won’t get the significance of the Dragon’s Eye – a fist-sized sapphire imbued with Elder Dragon power (personally, reminded me of The Heart of Ice from Prophecies).

I think GW2’s main problem regarding lore, is that it is all built upon the remains of GW1’s lore. GW1 had a lot of lore, -none of which included the Elder Dragons of course. Sure, the writing was very cliche and predictable, as Konig pointed out. But Tyria had a vast back story regarding the gods, the origin of magic, and the history of the various kingdoms. It was an entirely humans-centered storyline.

GW2’s story is bogged down by having to stay faithful to GW1’s lore. Some how it also has to work the Elder Dragons in, and redcon various things from GW1 that they don’t really want to deal with any more (like those pesky Bloodstones). And then it also has to spend equal time with all the races, even though these races are less well developed than the humans in GW1 were.

So in the end, what you get served is the crumbled remains of the GW1 lore, with some dragons pasted on top. That’s really what it all is. A lot of the elements that made GW1’s lore interesting, are either not mentioned (Bloodstones, Mursaat, Titans), or conveniently pushed out of the game to make room for the new big bad. They couldn’t add too many new back story for GW2, without out right contradicting GW1. So some sort of mix is the end result.

And then we also have a main storyline that leans far too heavily on characters from the books. Got to sell those books after all. But if you haven’t read the books, there’s not much reason for the player to be interested in any of these characters from Destiny’s Edge. And as was mentioned before, now that everything is spoken dialogue, there’s a lot less text to read through too.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They couldn’t add too many new back story for GW2, without out right contradicting GW1.

To this, I disagree with you. It is very much possible to add new back story for GW2. After all, if you seriously look at the historical lore presented in GW1, with the exception of the Canthan empire, we know very little about the past of the human nations. And even with the Empire, there’s a lot of blank slates to work with.

People may ask “why wasn’t it mentioned before?” The answer is simple: it wasn’t relevant to mention before. For example, we knew since Prophecies that Lion’s Arch was the home okitteng Doric and his family. Yet we were told even then that Kryta was established as a colony in 300 AE. In GW2, this got expaneded – in GoA (and other novel timelines), we learned Elona colonized Kryta in 300 AE; and in the sylvari personal storyline we learn that Mazdak was the first king of Kryta, being from humanity’s early reign; now in Malchor’s Leap, we learn that King Doric sent humanity out to not only Ascalon, but Kryta as well; then in Sea of Sorrows we learned that Kryta and Orr were at war in Kryta’s early years, and in an interview shortly after that, we learn that Mazdak (though never named, perhaps for spoiler reasons) more or less gave up his right to the Orrian throne.

It was an expansion of human nation history we knew about, but knew just so little.

There’s a lot in GW1 lore where we knew “something” about, but not a lot (in some cases, just a single sentence), and there were large gaps of “nothing at all known.” The history of the jotun – ignoring Thruln the Lost’s questionable dialogue – holds no contradictions to GW1 lore at all, for example. Heck, part of Thruln’s dialogue even builds upon the jotun in GW1 that we saw (his claim that elementalism is “primitive magic” – there were no elementalist jotun in GW1).

There’s only three cases where Anet ended up contradicting GW1 lore – before Angel McCoy’s interview that botched up what little remained of History of Tyria’s account of magic after Nightfall was revealed. That being Arah explorable, the Charr Invasion of Orr, and dwarven history/interaction/knowledge of the Elder Dragons (apparently the Stone Summit had dealings with the Elder Dragons in every other item they possessed).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s quite a lot of lore in the game, don’t get me wrong. It’s just that it’s less up-front than GW1. By far. And what there is, is often hidden in talking to NPCs during events when folks probably wouldn’t do so – like Protect Explorer Harlow while he finds the Dragon’s Eye – if you don’t talk to him, you won’t get the significance of the Dragon’s Eye – a fist-sized sapphire imbued with Elder Dragon power (personally, reminded me of The Heart of Ice from Prophecies).

This! In Guild Wars 1 you could miss something, hear about it (or suspect its existence later), then go back and replay the relevant story steps to search for clues. In Guild Wars 2, once you’ve done a personal story step there is no going back to it unless you start a new character and choose all the same branches along the path.

A lot of interesting tidbits can be gleaned by talking to NPCs instead of following objectives while in your personal story steps, but it’s painfully easy to miss out on that.

I think they need to utilize the Priory(and their library) more. Here is a huge in-game organization of scholars, researchers, explorers, and scientists, but they aren’t used to their full effect lore wise. We see them for renown hearts ever so often, but they can be used to greater purpose when explaining the lore behind certain areas as well. It would be nice to be able to stumble across a Priory explorer, camping in the middle of no where, researching. No renown hearts or anything. Just a lonesome npc that you can ask questions about a more in-depth history of the area. Events that happened there, important figures that might have lived here, certain aspects of the indigenous species… That sort of thing.

As for their library, they should add another function to the Priory’s skill point, the Heart of the Priory. Once you commune with it, you can talk to it again to get “imbued” with parts of its knowledge: the collective research of the Priory. (aka: You can read walls of text about certain parts of the history of Tyria.) Plus, since hopefully the Priory’s scholars were documenting the events of the LS, a summery of the event could be added to the Heart once that part of the LS is over.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

. It was an entirely humans-centered storyline.

I would have been very content to still have humans as the only playable characters. I remember way back when I first heard GW2 would have multiple playable races and thinking “Oh great, that means X number of functionally identical themed areas.” Sure enough, five cities and Lions Arch. There’s not anything specifically bad about that, except that it’s emblematic of the issue…creating five copies of everything takes resources, and when it’s done in storytelling, it’s devastatingly detrimental (in my opinion). Without it, we could have had a storyline five times as long or five times as detailed…whatever.
In GW1, I actually read all those text boxes and watched those cutscenes. They really did, 85% of the time, provide interesting information that added some weight to the story. In GW2, I’m to the point I don’t ever care to sift through the 3-4 minute cutscene to find the two or three sentences that add anything useful to the story, and much of that is repeated “cliche” information (“Charr are violent. Cool, now what else about them?” “Asura are smart. Ok, then what?”). Add on top of that, all the LS content which just feels tacked on there.

In short, I wanted intricate diorama, I got schizophrenic collage.

Erukk.1408:

I think they need to utilize the Priory(and their library) more. Here is a huge in-game organization of scholars, researchers, explorers, and scientists, but they aren’t used to their full effect lore wise. We see them for renown hearts ever so often, but they can be used to greater purpose when explaining the lore behind certain areas as well. It would be nice to be able to stumble across a Priory explorer, camping in the middle of no where, researching. No renown hearts or anything. Just a lonesome npc that you can ask questions about a more in-depth history of the area. Events that happened there, important figures that might have lived here, certain aspects of the indigenous species… That sort of thing.

As for their library, they should add another function to the Priory’s skill point, the Heart of the Priory. Once you commune with it, you can talk to it again to get “imbued” with parts of its knowledge: the collective research of the Priory. (aka: You can read walls of text about certain parts of the history of Tyria.) Plus, since hopefully the Priory’s scholars were documenting the events of the LS, a summery of the event could be added to the Heart once that part of the LS is over.

That would be great i think! Even though i guess it should be limited to characters who actually joined the Priory. There are just some things you dont tell to every bypasser adventurer, say, where is the nearest old ruin to plunder before the Priory can set up a working research camp. The detailed explanation behind how Spectral Agony worked. That small fracture they found of the words that Khilbron read from the scroll.

But the idea itself is good, and it could work. Its not like 100% of every said word is voiced in the game. Much of the lore could be flashed out from simple dialogue boxes.

lakdav.3694:

Even though i guess it should be limited to characters who actually joined the Priory.

Then the Vigil and Whispers need their own libraries – which would make sense.

The Vigil should have archives of past battles with Elder Dragons, and other major foes they help out against, for reference when planning strategies (Efut’s job of “theoretical strategizing” would require such information). The Order of Whispers should hold political information, especially blackmail materials.

But a lore library or even a codex in the Hero Panel, getting its own tab, is really needed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

GW2’s story is bogged down by having to stay faithful to GW1’s lore. Some how it also has to work the Elder Dragons in, and retcon various things from GW1 that they don’t really want to deal with any more (like those pesky Bloodstones). And then it also has to spend equal time with all the races, even though these races are less well developed than the humans in GW1 were.

So in the end, what you get served is the crumbled remains of the GW1 lore, with some dragons pasted on top. That’s really what it all is. A lot of the elements that made GW1’s lore interesting, are either not mentioned (Bloodstones, Mursaat, Titans), or conveniently pushed out of the game to make room for the new big bad. They couldn’t add too many new back story for GW2, without outright contradicting GW1. So some sort of mix is the end result.

The bolded parts are very untrue. Had they put effort into it, they could’ve perfectly explained everything from GW1 making sense in GW2 without contradicting the established lore when expanding on those elements.

As I presented in my five-part-long post chain, the bloodstones can be flawlessly explained and elaborated on even with the Elder Dragons around (and the new knowledge about them (lesser dragons, too) being “sponges of magic” keeping magical levels in check – there’s a difference between keeping in check and removing it entirely (what the EDs do), mind you):

Thalador

Today we know that it was the seers and not the gods who created the original Bloodstone, with the specific purpose to lock away all the uncorrupted, free magic of the world from the Elder Dragons during their last rise. The effects of such a drastic move showed for millennia to come: a world where magic was scarce, slowly regenerating, with the rest concentrated in dragons and the Bloodstone. Later on, the gods and humanity arrived, presumably from a world where magic was also very rare. Humans blessed with the power of the gods or communing with spirits were the only to master this strange phenomenon, yet it still made their conquest of the world laughably easy, since aside from the remnants of the elder races no other species had access to such powers. Another jump in centuries: the gods tampered with Bloodstone, effectively strengthening the impossibly huge amounts stored in there with Zhaitan’s energies. Then Abaddon found a way to release the Bloodstone’s contents back into the world, and went on to present this gift to the oppressed species as well for unknown reasons. Wars ensued, threatening the existence of humanity beleagured by enemies from both inside and outside. King Doric pleaded the gods to end this insanity, so the Five sundered the Bloodstone to five pieces, resealed the shards with Doric’s blood, and enacted another safety mechanism (the keystone) to make the reuniting all the harder. But in the time the Bloodstone was boosted and unlocked, it spilled magic back into the world unchecked. <- The very reason why magic became so pervasive and strong for the next 1,326 years. Without the Bloodstone and the tampering with it, the Guild Wars (the actual events) and the events of Guild Wars 1 (the three campaigns and their prelude) never would’ve occured. There would’ve been far too little magic to bring about the tragedies, cataclysms, unparalleled feats, etc. that shaped the world into what it is now.

So once more: this outrageous disregard for the Bloodstone’s role and its “dogma” that changed Tyria forevermore is incredibly detrimental to lore.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/2#post2683447

Another thing that confuses me is that they have a lot of leftover lore from GW1, like the Mursaat, Palawa Joko, the Tengu, Order of Whispers, etc.

And instead they keep introducing new groups and villans. How awesome would it have been if Scarlet were a Mursaat instead, or maybe even controlled by the Mursaat?

But instead we get Aetherblades and Zephyrites. Which are cool in their own way, but using the existing lore could have enriched the story because the basis was already there. Now, the little lore texts there are go to waste introducing the new guys, while the old guys could have just shown up and continued from what they had.

Zephyrites did use existing lore. They’re the spiritual successors of the Brotherhood of the Dragon.

Though I agree with the “why bring in new guys” bit. Molten Alliance worked enough because it was two old groups working together. Aetherblades, not so much. It’d be nice to deal with Scarlet quickly (be it killing her, imprisoning her (perhaps in The Grove’s prison), or forcing her to flee into exile), and then go back to some of the older enemies of lore – the White Mantle/Lazarus (Sinister Triad anyone?), Joko, etc. The initial release did well enough utilizing old foes (centaurs, Flame Legion, dredge, jotun), but some still exist to delve into. Especially in Cantha coughhintcough.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Vigil should have archives of past battles with Elder Dragons, and other major foes they help out against, for reference when planning strategies (Efut’s job of “theoretical strategizing” would require such information). The Order of Whispers should hold political information, especially blackmail materials.

But a lore library or even a codex in the Hero Panel, getting its own tab, is really needed.

+1 for that. So who’s gonna write into the Suggestions forum where there is a slightly bigger chance for a dev reading it?

lakdav.3694:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Vigil should have archives of past battles with Elder Dragons, and other major foes they help out against, for reference when planning strategies (Efut’s job of “theoretical strategizing” would require such information). The Order of Whispers should hold political information, especially blackmail materials.

But a lore library or even a codex in the Hero Panel, getting its own tab, is really needed.

+1 for that. So who’s gonna write into the Suggestions forum where there is a slightly bigger chance for a dev reading it?

That 0.1% doesn’t motivate me enough to try QQ.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They couldn’t add too many new back story for GW2, without out right contradicting GW1.

To this, I disagree with you. It is very much possible to add new back story for GW2. After all, if you seriously look at the historical lore presented in GW1, with the exception of the Canthan empire, we know very little about the past of the human nations. And even with the Empire, there’s a lot of blank slates to work with.

Yeah, but you’re still filling in gaps. You’re not writing anything new, just adding clay on top of an already finished sculpture. And that’s GW2’s problem, everything they write has to expand on what is already there. And while that be a great amount of free filler, it’s also a burden, that constraints the writers creatively. And it shows.

Thalador.4218:

The bolded parts are very untrue. Had they put effort into it, they could’ve perfectly explained everything from GW1 making sense in GW2 without contradicting the established lore when expanding on those elements.

The problem is that they’d still be constantly railroaded by the lore that is already there. They can’t step out of that box. Explaining away holes in a previous plot, is not as interesting or engaging, as a new plot. It’s like Darth Vader back story. He was an interesting character, until they actually explain how it all happened. Tyria is the same way, you don’t need to know everything. It’s far more interesting to experience a new story, rather than the remains of an older one.

The problem here is that the writers can’t really take Tyria in an entirely new direction. There’s already established lore from GW1, that directly limits them in what they can write. So either they have to redcon stuff, push it to the side, or not make any mention of it. Sure you can write everything in a way that makes sense, but you’d still be busy filling in the holes left by other writers. If you want to truly do something new, you can’t.

ThiBash.5634:

Another thing that confuses me is that they have a lot of leftover lore from GW1, like the Mursaat, Palawa Joko, the Tengu, Order of Whispers, etc.

And instead they keep introducing new groups and villans. How awesome would it have been if Scarlet were a Mursaat instead, or maybe even controlled by the Mursaat?

But instead we get Aetherblades and Zephyrites. Which are cool in their own way, but using the existing lore could have enriched the story because the basis was already there. Now, the little lore texts there are go to waste introducing the new guys, while the old guys could have just shown up and continued from what they had.

To be entirely honest, I would be all right with A-net introducing new enemies, if they were a bit more… interesting. I, personally, got a little tired of all the technology that enters the world of Tyria – from the asura complex computers, through the charr tanks, to the human watchknights it all feels a bit much to me. The Molten Alliance had an interesting concept with their weird combinations of flame legion magic and dredge technology, but Scarlet and the Aetherblades feel like they push the story away from high fantasy too much for my likings.

This matter aside, I certainly believe that lore should be placed in more convenient places, where some players who are not diehard Guild Wars lore lovers can easily access it. In GW1, the wiki, while an outside source, was a nice place for players to fill in some gaps. In GW2, unfortunately, my experience has lead me to believe that this is not the case.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Thalador.4218:

The bolded parts are very untrue. Had they put effort into it, they could’ve perfectly explained everything from GW1 making sense in GW2 without contradicting the established lore when expanding on those elements.

The problem is that they’d still be constantly railroaded by the lore that is already there. They can’t step out of that box. Explaining away holes in a previous plot, is not as interesting or engaging, as a new plot. It’s like Darth Vader back story. He was an interesting character, until they actually explain how it all happened. Tyria is the same way, you don’t need to know everything. It’s far more interesting to experience a new story, rather than the remains of an older one.

The problem here is that the writers can’t really take Tyria in an entirely new direction. There’s already established lore from GW1, that directly limits them in what they can write. So either they have to redcon stuff, push it to the side, or not make any mention of it. Sure you can write everything in a way that makes sense, but you’d still be busy filling in the holes left by other writers. If you want to truly do something new, you can’t.

Erm… how about the introduction of the Elder Dragons (very new) into a Tyria that works well with the pre-existing lore of the bloodstones (very old)? (The one I just quoted above.) Hell, Cliffside Fractal is brand new, they’ve done it, and if they juggle well it will make for an incredibly epic chapter of Tyria’s past that can and does make sense with the stories and lore we’ve known already.

As I said before: it’s a difficult task, but if you actually try and put effort into it, it can be done successfully. Now, if you’re lazy and you have a half-baked idea that is cool in theory but makes no sense in practice – it is incompatible with what you already have – and you force it into the well-constructed whole of lore (effectively demolishing (read: retconning) the fields it’d connect to), it will surely fail to live up to both expectations for quality new stuff as well as honoring the traditions/customs of the old stuff. And unfortunately, GW2 and the whole of the GW universe are being taken towards this “new direction” to ruin by the writers who seemingly care no more about what happens on the world of Tyria and beyond.

Thalador.4218:

Erm… how about the introduction of the Elder Dragons (very new) into a Tyria that works well with the pre-existing lore of the bloodstones (very old)? (The one I just quoted above.) Hell, Cliffside Fractal is brand new, they’ve done it, and if they juggle well it will make for an incredibly epic chapter of Tyria’s past that can and does make sense with the stories and lore we’ve known already.

To be fair, those Elder Dragons were kind of shoehorned into Eye of the North to set up things for GW2. So they had already quickly set up the dragons at the end of GW1. It’s easy to build on top of that, since they had already laid the foundation.

But regarding the Bloodstones, they were a plot device that mattered in Prophecies. After that, they became irrelevant plot-wise (Only Eye of the North took a short trip to the Bloodstone Caves). Now they’re kind of stuck with them. They can’t write them out of the plot. Same thing with the human gods. The gods had a strong influence in GW1. But now in GW2 we have all these races, with their own beliefs, so the human gods are shoved out of the way for plot convenience.

It all turns into a bit of a dance around the old lore for the writers. I think this is one of the main reason why the GW2 lore feels less rich. There’s few fresh new lore. The Cliffside Fractal is a nice new bit of content. But did we really get any new lore out of it? Without context, it is just another random encounter.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They couldn’t add too many new back story for GW2, without out right contradicting GW1.

To this, I disagree with you. It is very much possible to add new back story for GW2. After all, if you seriously look at the historical lore presented in GW1, with the exception of the Canthan empire, we know very little about the past of the human nations. And even with the Empire, there’s a lot of blank slates to work with.

Yeah, but you’re still filling in gaps. You’re not writing anything new, just adding clay on top of an already finished sculpture. And that’s GW2’s problem, everything they write has to expand on what is already there. And while that be a great amount of free filler, it’s also a burden, that constraints the writers creatively. And it shows.

False.

History put in before human history is not “filling in the gaps” – history unrelated to the human histories (for example, the whole of The Ecology of the Charr) is not filling in the gaps. While that’d be true in some cases, when there’s nothing to hint at something having happened, that’s not quite filling in the gaps. If it is, then your argument can be used on the full existence of Factions and Nightfall, and even Eye of the North.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem is that they’d still be constantly railroaded by the lore that is already there. They can’t step out of that box.

I disagree. It all depends on how you work with what you’re given. You may be right about it being a “dance” in storytelling, but that is a far cry from shoehorning or being railroaded, let alone “filling in the gaps.”

I mean, what if the first expansion – should such ever take place – takes us to a previously unexplored continent? Will that still be shoehorning things in? Will it still be filling in the gaps? No, I don’t think so.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem here is that the writers can’t really take Tyria in an entirely new direction.

The problem is that the writers are deciding to do away with GW1 lore. That’s the problem. They are going in an entirely new direction, too much of one.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There’s already established lore from GW1, that directly limits them in what they can write. So either they have to redcon stuff, push it to the side, or not make any mention of it.

Or build off of it which is 100% perfectly possible, unlike your claim.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sure you can write everything in a way that makes sense, but you’d still be busy filling in the holes left by other writers. If you want to truly do something new, you can’t.

In writing, “holes left by others” regard things mentioned but unexplained, not the utterly never mentioned stuff. Writing what happened in Kryta between its independence in 358 and Thorn’s life in cerca 800 AE is not filling in gaps – explaining the life of Thorn is filling in gaps.

Like I said, if you argue that it is, then you’re saying that EVERYTHING beyond the very initial lore of the very first game is “filling in the gaps.”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The Cliffside Fractal is a nice new bit of content. But did we really get any new lore out of it? Without context, it is just another random encounter.

Wasn’t that how most of Prophecies was? Just a little sentence on lore, or a mere observance like the runes on the pillars in the Chaos Plains of the Underworld. The giant skeletons of unexplained origins throughout Tyria and Elona.

Very little of Prophecies’ lore had in-game context. And that made us speculate and theorize over them. That’s why Uncategorized and Cliffside Fractals get so much attention. Same with the Pale Tree’s origins. Because we’re going just so little. Just like practically everything in Prophecies.

I fail to see how this is a problem in the least. If anything, that “just another random encounter” is exactly how ArenaNet has done their lore since day one. The very first quest ever designed, The Villainy of Galrath, is exactly this. No context, just some guy wearing White Mantle armor that we’re told to kill because he’s trying to access something that could prove dangerous.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, but you’re still filling in gaps. You’re not writing anything new, just adding clay on top of an already finished sculpture. And that’s GW2’s problem, everything they write has to expand on what is already there. And while that be a great amount of free filler, it’s also a burden, that constraints the writers creatively. And it shows.

False.

History put in before human history is not “filling in the gaps” – history unrelated to the human histories (for example, the whole of The Ecology of the Charr) is not filling in the gaps. While that’d be true in some cases, when there’s nothing to hint at something having happened, that’s not quite filling in the gaps. If it is, then your argument can be used on the full existence of Factions and Nightfall, and even Eye of the North.

I agree with Konig. Any history real or in this case imagined, is expansive. I don’t believe the writers/creators are constrained at all. They have a 250 year gap between games and an amazing amount of history before the first game that they can create. True creativity in this case is not replacing or being constrained by known history, but using it and making it more rich.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem is that they’d still be constantly railroaded by the lore that is already there. They can’t step out of that box.

I disagree. It all depends on how you work with what you’re given. You may be right about it being a “dance” in storytelling, but that is a far cry from shoehorning or being railroaded, let alone “filling in the gaps.”

I think MQM that they don’t need to step out of the box for anything. The box is vast. It isn’t even the tiniest fraction full. There are not gaps, there are expanses. The writers could never cover all of the history concerning GW1 lore that is left for them to expand upon. They aren’t railroaded, they in fact, have been given a solid base of information to play off of and haven’t utilized what they have been given to any broad extent.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem here is that the writers can’t really take Tyria in an entirely new direction.

The problem is that the writers are deciding to do away with GW1 lore. That’s the problem. They are going in an entirely new direction, too much of one.

Amen Konig. Although they have two hundred and fifty years to play with there is much history that we have today from 250 years ago that we are well aware of. We should be seeing more of it in my opinion. Also history gets convoluted over the centuries, but I believe you are right. They are going in to much of a ‘new’ direction.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There’s already established lore from GW1, that directly limits them in what they can write. So either they have to redcon stuff, push it to the side, or not make any mention of it.

Or build off of it which is 100% perfectly possible, unlike your claim.

Exactly Konig. They are taking the easy, not the creative way out.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Sure you can write everything in a way that makes sense, but you’d still be busy filling in the holes left by other writers. If you want to truly do something new, you can’t.

In writing, “holes left by others” regard things mentioned but unexplained, not the utterly never mentioned stuff. Writing what happened in Kryta between its independence in 358 and Thorn’s life in cerca 800 AE is not filling in gaps – explaining the life of Thorn is filling in gaps.

IMO that is the GW2 creative team’s job to fill in holes from GW1 and expand on it’s very rich lore. GW2 may be a new game, but it is a game built upon the foundations of a beloved game that had many years of life due to its rich story and locations. Why even call this game Guild Wars, if the writers can just throw out what many, many players loved about the game that holds the original title of Guild Wars?

ThiBash.5634:

Another thing that confuses me is that they have a lot of leftover lore from GW1, like the Mursaat, Palawa Joko, the Tengu, Order of Whispers, etc.

Palawa Joko would have been an amazing ally/lacky for Zhaitan! And there seem to be Tengu in the game already.

I suppose it’s possible they are saving some of this lore for future updates/expansions. I guess I’ll have to hope they’re keeping their really good cards in hand.

jheryn.8390:

True creativity in this case is not replacing or being constrained by known history, but using it and making it more rich.

That’s true, that is being more purely “creative.” But that’s certainly not the only thing to consider when expanding on an established fictional history. A good story, when borrowing heavily from another, should try as hard as it can to stay true to the spirit of the first. Otherwise the two seem incongruent and foreign to each other…which is exactly what we have here.

Whatever the reason for the massive disconnect(personally I think it was just plain old greed), the two games don’t really sync with each other right. Sure, technically most of it works and fits together, but realistically that’s not really the case. It’s like ANet did a game version of “Extreme Makeover” or something…bleh.

However, one simple question you can ask yourself it this:

Does this game really feel like Guild Wars 1 Tyria?

To me, it might as well be an entirely different game with it’s own separate lore. Everyone needs to judge that for themselves… but …the sheer amount of dissatisfaction attributed to this topic has to say something. There is such a thing as a consensual truth, however imperfect that may be.

I have to agree with Konig. Nothing good comes from having free reign everywhere. Eventually, to get anything strong, or rich, or excellent you have to give yourself boundaries. In this instance they were given lore, and IMO they have done a great job of including new lore to the old lore and giving the world a little more depth and richness from the standpoint of the Personal Story and IMO the early parts of the Living Story. I originally liked what the Living Story was building off of, with tying up loose ends of the story, but things are definitely on a strange track. I’m teetering on the fence so far with it, but I can say one thing for certain. If there is one thing ArenaNet is struggling with, it isn’t looking back and filling in the past, it is looking forwards and seeing what Tyria’s future is like.

Obsidian.1328:

jheryn.8390:

True creativity in this case is not replacing or being constrained by known history, but using it and making it more rich.

That’s true, that is being more purely “creative.” But that’s certainly not the only thing to consider when expanding on an established fictional history. A good story, when borrowing heavily from another, should try as hard as it can to stay true to the spirit of the first. Otherwise the two seem incongruent and foreign to each other…which is exactly what we have here.

Whatever the reason for the massive disconnect(personally I think it was just plain old greed), the two games don’t really sync with each other right. Sure, technically most of it works and fits together, but realistically that’s not really the case. It’s like ANet did a game version of “Extreme Makeover” or something…bleh.

However, one simple question you can ask yourself it this:

Does this game really feel like Guild Wars 1 Tyria?

To me, it might as well be an entirely different game with it’s own separate lore. Everyone needs to judge that for themselves… but …the sheer amount of dissatisfaction attributed to this topic has to say something. There is such a thing as a consensual truth, however imperfect that may be.

The problem is, the dissatisfaction in your case comes from the game in general, from day one. The dissatisfaction found throughout most of this topic, minus the OP, is found pointed in the general direction of the Living Story.

Obsidian.1328:

[SNIP]

That is exactly my point. Obsidian. I agree with you 100%. 250 years or not it feels like there isn’t much left of the game we all loved.

I think there was such an amazing foundation to build this game on, and they seemed to throw much of that out the window. Instead of building on many of the beloved places and themes in GW1 then destroyed most location and have glossed over many of the themes.

In their defense, they do have four new races to absorb into lore and establish. I get that, but even in the very human and Char areas we are intimately familiar with, much of what we wanted to see is simple not there.

It doesn’t feel like the things and places of GW1. When I am in the Kryta areas, I don’t feel like I am in the Kryta of GW1. The Maguuma jungle no longer feels like a jungle but a semi-suburban sprawl. Where are all the HUGE mountains we were able to roam around in and on top of in the Shiverpeaks?

It is just like you asked. Does it really even feel like the Tyria we knew? Where is the nostalgia for the game that brought us here? Just my feeling as I go through the game.

Narcemus.1348:

The problem is, the dissatisfaction in your case comes from the game in general, from day one. The dissatisfaction found throughout most of this topic, minus the OP, is found pointed in the general direction of the Living Story.

I really don’t feel that way Narcemus. I am OK, with the actual storylines of the LS. Introducing new threats, etc., into a story is fine. Heck 250 years ago in RL people weren’t worrying about texting and buggy driving. Things are different after 250. There are new threats and issues.

I think myself, Konig and Obsidian are not griping about the LS but more the disregard for what we know in GW1. I’m OK with the addition of new lore, I just don’t want to throw the old lore out the window and pretend it doesn’t have impact on life in Tyria today.

Narcemus.1348:

The problem is, the dissatisfaction in your case comes from the game in general, from day one. The dissatisfaction found throughout most of this topic, minus the OP, is found pointed in the general direction of the Living Story.

Hmm, I respectfully disagree. The Living Story gets called out on it because it’s so obvious. But the dissatisfaction I hear in-game, and see on these forums, is not restricted to just the LS. It’s endemic to the overall story arc.

For my part, I wasn’t really jaded at launch. On the contrary, I had a huge amount of optimism for the game, but it wasn’t until I played it for a month or two that I began to see it for what it was. The gorgeous landscape tamed me until then I suppose. :/

Not restricted to the LS, no, but focused upon it. There isn’t really that much that’s bad of the initial release. Some things, for sure, but not as much as you make it out to seem Obsidian. I can easily summarize the entirety of the lore issues of GW2’s initial release with 4 simple bulletpoints not even a sentence long each:

• Arah explorable
• Select pieces of Orr’s history and geography
• Stone Summit
• Asura “magitech” (aka “tool of ‘anything goes’”)

The first retcons – to varying degrees – what little remained of the History of Tyria’s ancient history records (Forgotten and Seer paths). The second just causes confusion – primarily regarding Izz-al Din’s geography, but also the Charr Invasion of Orr which becomes questionable on how they could so easily succeed when Orr was full of magic users, and then there’s the whole matter of humanity arriving on the world (3 points). The third is that nearly everything about the Stone Summit got turned into “Elder Dragon objects!!!!” when they didn’t even have similar counterparts (Sanguinary Blade, last wielded by Dagnar Stonepate – wait, what? He had an axe!). And the fourth is that the asura turned from magically-acceled midgets from underground to ArenaNet’s “push to do anything” button – from ED killing lasers (reasonable but needed more exposition) to cameras and microphones (arguably reasonable but needs any amount of exposition) to video game systems within a video game 8D (wait… what?).

The LS though… that’s more questionable with everything from Secret of Southsun and on. Only thing good in the LS since then has probably been the unexplained tentacles on Southsun, and the Zephyrites (though the Bazaar udpate fails because how the hell did the ship get to Labyrinthine Cliffs from LA?).

Not all of us hate the game as vehemently as you Obsidian ;D

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the fourth is that the asura turned from magically-acceled midgets from underground to ArenaNet’s “push to do anything” button – from ED killing lasers (reasonable but needed more exposition) to cameras and microphones (arguably reasonable but needs any amount of exposition) to video game systems within a video game 8D (wait… what?).

I think I feel the strongest about this point. In Eye of the North the Asura were mainly just inventors of golems and portals. That was about it. They did some funny business with crystal arrays, which is where it already started getting sketchy. But on the whole, they down played the stuff that Asura could do with their magic. They also showed the problems Asura have with agreeing with each other, and working together.

GW2 doesn’t do this. Instead, Asura are a wildcard for the writers to throw anything they want into the story, as the plot requires it. Dragon killing laser? Sure, why not. Virtual reality? No problem. Which begs the question why the other races are still needed. What do you need Norn for, or Sylvari, or Charr? Or humans? The Asura seem perfectly capable to build any device of plot convenience, that is far superior to anything the other races can bring to the table.

I could accept the Charr tanks, because that made them kind of awesome. But the science of the Charr is vastly overshadowed by giant airships and lasers. They inject just anything they can think of, and explain it with the holodeck… -I mean Asura. Which makes everything else seem rather pointless really. Why are we still wielding swords?

Totally agree with Malafide. Asura OP. It’s not only leaning forward to asura and charrs, but technology.

I think races and methods should be balanced. If the asura got the lasers, humans and norns should posess equal magical power. Jennah does. Ok. But she isn’t fighting the dragons, but asura lasers do. There should be more spellcasters in GW2. Basically it’s almost only the player character and ghosts from the past that still use magic.

… You know, I never really thought on this, but Gandarel’s right. Disregarding magitech (aka sci-fi) the development of magic seems to have come to a screeching halt. Nearly every magical plot point that I can think of is either "this artifact is from Orr!’ or “the Durmand Priory discovered such-and-such in some long-forgotten tome.” From the charr and asura, it’s understandable, but no contemporary human magics feature in the storyline. Ditto with sylvari (maybe Trahearne’s cleansing ritual, but honestly, that felt more like a sidetrack than the main plot to me). Norn I suppose I’ll let off the hook, as their powers have always been derived from a primal connection with their totems, and not independent magic.

EDIT: This makes me even more disappointed that Scarlet is an engineer, with more hordes of robots at her command. I know it’d be a bit cliche, but she would have made a great necro, and that might have put magic back in the proper spotlight.

To be somewhat fair, magic being consumed/devoured by the dragons IS a relevant plotpoint. One can assume that there is a lot less magic circulating around than in the GW1 eras.

Also, the most prominent magical events were mostly the doings of Abaddon. The Jade Wind, the Searing and the Cataclysm are all his, also there is the Foefire that is not (or maybe it was supposed to be, but it came too late to work into his overall plans). With his threat gone, and the gods departing fully from Tyria (not even aspects are around anymore), and the dragons consuming/corrupting magic, its no wonder that the only possible route Tyria can take is technology. Especially with the charr and asura around.

The most magical thing in GW2 are the sylvari and the Grove/Pale Tree. Sadly, they have their own difficulties when it comes to credibility and how well they can work as plot-moving characters. We saw a few times already how sylvari characters put into the spotlight can become suspect of lazy or bad writing, so much so that that seems to be the standard attitude when we see one entering the stage.

tl:dr
Dragons have most of the magic, and they are the enemy. We have technology. Sylvari are our own ‘magic’, but they tend to feel shallow story-wise.

I don’t think that the dragons have most of the magic. I mean, supposedly they were leaking magic for 250ish years after the events of GW1 and through that timeperiod the PC’s have learned skills that put GW1 skills to shame (commenting on dialogue in the EotN. I would say that even with the dragons around magic is most likely at least as strong as it was in GW1 if not still stronger. They do not seem to be magical vacuums, they instead seem to have to consume items imbued with magic, or, if Oola is correct, corrupting creatures might also be a means of consuming magic.

Actually asura technology uses crystals that dragons can consume. They are still sending golems to the battlefields.

Poor excuse. We need magic back, professions feel overdue. I am carving a terminator with my axe, shooting a golem with arrows and throw fireballs on megalasers… srsly.. we need a threat that we can defeat without asura or charr technology..

The "funny" thing is that, according to Angel McCoy, everyone and everything has access to magic, uses magic, and knows they can. And magic has only gotten stronger since GW1.

Then what’s with the over-the-top use of technology? I get it, cultures advance, we’re fighting magic consuming eldritch abominations (in the personal storyline), and honestly I don’t have a problem with technology in the game. My problem is that it’s just too heavily played.

Kind of funny, though, how the introduction of Scarlet has gotten just about the entire lore forum in an uproar about the direction of the lore, and talking about things earlier.... Well, I guess the Living Story has reached the "too much" point.

TBH, for me, I could live with where the asura and charr were in the initial release. And if not for Angel’s interview but a better proper explanation, I could deal with the whole Orr-is-very-magical and other lore from Orr.... But now it’s gone too far from the original lore.

So much for ArenaNet claiming that they seriously care for the lore.

Maybe Scarlet’s tempering with the most advanced technology will put some kind of stigma on technology as a whole now. Where as people had reasons to distrust magic given its long and bloody history on Tyria, technology seemed that uncorruptable new power that could even kill dragons. All looked fine until a single crazy shrub started hacking into watchknights and building a technologically more advanced force than the Pact itself. and started burning kittens down out of fun without limit.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. They dumbed things down. A lot. Made it simpler and easier to understand. You don’t need to read the books or play the first game to know what’s happening in gw2… Which is imo bad.

I really have to disagree intensely with you on this one. I don’t feel like spending even more money on the books or the previous game to get more out of the game I’ve already paid for.

I want to get a full explanation of all the lore of the game, in the game itself.
I don’t care how they do it, they might add books that have lots and lots of pages to read, I honestly wouldn’t mind.

But please, allow all the game lore to be in the game itself. It’s ludicrous to say that, in order to fully understand and comprehend the GW2 lore, you have to consult multiple external sources.

As I’ve said earlier, books would be extremely helpful. A good read is never unwelcome! Hah!

(N.B: If there are any grammar or spelling errors, I apologise. I’m very sleepy.)

I actually don’t have any problem with the initial game lore. I haven’t seen GW1 so I had to pick up some of the back story by going round zones, doing events, following through the personal story. That portrays the current game world quite well through events that players can participate in. However the events shows contemporary lore rather than a Tolkeinesque historical enyclopaedia, and historical lore has to be found with the F key. In my opinion, that’s good enough.

My problems are with a living story that seems entirely detached from the existing game world, in contrast to the personal stories that were integrated into the game world.

Derigar, I think you misunderstand me.

What you’re saying you want, however, would require basically repeating everything from GW1 in GW2. Everything lore related that is. I Doubt such would happen.

It seems you think I was wanting that you wouldn’t understand GW2 without playing GW1 or reading the books – that’s not what I meant. What I meant is that what ArenaNet is doing is putting so little historical lore care into the plots, that you don’t really care about finding out about the lore.

Take the Vigil lvl 30-40 storyline, and the whole events of Fields of Ruin. Sure, you get there’s a charr-human treaty being written up and you got some groups trying to end it… but why is that treaty so important? I mean other than the whole “unite to fight the dragons” – why is it taking so long? Why is it such a tedious ground? What is the history of the two races? Why is there so much rivalry between them? GW2 barely gets into it, and you can go through the whole plot without caring, finding out, or becoming interested in it. But if you played GW1, you’d know a lot more about it and you’d care about it.

What I meant is that Anet dumbed things down to the point where it doesn’t matter whether or not you know the background. It’s not all there, and it doesn’t have to be there – that’s how Anet made GW2. Which is a double-edged sword. It reduces the need to put more lore in, but it also reduces the interest in the lore.

It’s because of that action on ArenaNet’s part – their dumbing down of the plot and having so little lore upfront – that people like WoodenPotatoes is so large in the community. He doesn’t make the lore interesting, or even accurate most of the time. He does a rather poor job of research, quite frankly, when he says to be unable to find certain lore facts he’s heard about – said lore facts being from in-your-face NPC dialogues often enough, but what he does a good job of doing is showing people that the game does have lore.

ArenaNet doesn’t show that. Instead of showing the game has lore and story and background, they put their background on their official site, where it’ll be lost to the nether of news posts. Or removed entirely like their blog posts (thank god they got put on the wiki first).

The tone on this subforum really got harsher towards Anet and it’s way of dealing with lore in the last month(s). And I totally agree with it. I sure hope someone from Anet reads this and understands it as constructive criticism. We need a lot of changes both in the lore itself and how it is distributed.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ArenaNet doesn’t show that. Instead of showing the game has lore and story and background, they put their background on their official site, where it’ll be lost to the nether of news posts. Or removed entirely like their blog posts (thank god they got put on the wiki first).

This is an excellent point. It certainly was not perfect, but in GW1 the writing and progression of missions and quests really told not only the main story, but gave us much background on the history/culture of the GW1 areas. Having lore, any lore new or old, relegated to blog posts and official sites is just not good. The game itself should tell the story and give us the history.

I also believe that the devs don’t have to recount all of GW1 history in GW2, but it should be an evident presence in the new game. GW1 itself should be a history lesson and foundation for GW2. Still new lore and history shouldn’t have to be Googled in order to access it.

I have no problem with supplemental information out there such as books, but even the book information should at least in part be embedded in the game IMO.

The thing is, the missions in the game didn’t give squat really for lore. I mean if you literally just ran from mission to mission you could go the whole time not really knowing what the gods were and if they were real or fake (speaking of the Prophecies missions). The white mantle were ruling Kryta, but not sure why or how. Most of the big answers and explanations came from walls upon walls of quest text and dialogue within these quests. GW2 is no different.