Guild Wars 2

Okay so Im not sure if this was brought up or not but I’ve always wondered about what might have been done to Zhaitan’s body after his defeat. I understand that he was actually killed at the end of the personal story and the last you see of him is when he falls dramatically into nothingness. I read on the wiki that since his defeat, Risen forces still do exist but they’ve thinned out.

My thing is, if Zhaitan was feeding on magical artifacts and dragons are known to contain immense magical power (correct me if Im wrong on that, Im still new to Guild Wars lore), then I’m sure that all that magic must still remain in his corpse, especially if some Risen are still hanging around. So there’s the problem, you have a dragon’s body teaming with magic which could possibly be harvested and harnessed in the worst ways.

So what do you guys think might have been done to properly dispose of his body? How DO you dispose of a dragon’s body with all that magical energy? Any theories?

We know one of his tails was taken to the Durmand Priory- we see it there in S2 of the Living World- but other than that, nothing. My bet, personally, is that it’s something too big to dispose of, and so it’s left where it is- under guard, perhaps, if the area has been sufficiently pacified.

One theory has been proposed by woodenpotatoes that Mordremoth may use Zhaitan’s dead body to make a clone of him, just like he does with other dead bodies.

Ah I totally missed that in living world season 2, Ill definitely have to replay it. But yeah I was thinking a dragon’s body would be way too big to get rid of. Thats why I brought up the issue of parts of its body being harvested. Placing guards there would make sense

Xstein.2187:

One theory has been proposed by woodenpotatoes that Mordremoth may use Zhaitan’s dead body to make a clone of him, just like he does with other dead bodies.

Now THAT would be interesting

WP’s theory hinges on the notion that the Cleansing Ritual that Trahearne used empowers Mordremoth. But there’s no reason for this to be – just like how Glint’s Lair, and her egg, remained separate from Kralkatorrik’s power it only makes sense for the same to be said of the Pale Tree’s power from Mordremoth. This would also explain why Mordremoth sought to kill/damage the Pale Tree, implying he cannot simply re-corrupt it.

I recall a twitchtv talk with Jeff and Ree shortly before release (now long removed, and a real shame too as during that livestream talk they compared Glint to Kuunavang despite it being well known then that Glint was a dragon champion), where they intentionally left it open for what the fate of Glint’s children/eggs were, and whether or not Kralkatorrik took control of them, while simultaneously mentioning that Glint remained fully free of Kralkatorrik. If the Pale Tree was freed from Mordremoth by the same or similar methods as Glint was from Kralkatorrik, then the Pale Tree would thus be immune to re-corruption. In turn, so would her direct magic – just as Glint’s Lair remained untouched despite the fact that the battle with Kralkatorrik happened in the skies above it, and he breathed his corruptive breath over the land several times over.

Caladbolg was used to cleanse Orr, not Trahearne, so it would stand to reason that Orr has become like Glint’s Lair. And just as Glint’s Lair remains untouched by Kralkatorrik… so would Orr from Mordremoth by extension.

That said

As to Zhaitan’s body, instutionalized, you’re correct about dragon corpses retaining the magic they consumed. This was brought up during Bazaar of the Four Winds in S1 during the short story Trek of the Zephyrites (parts of which can be found scattered in Dry Top), which described them recovering Glint’s body, and doing so for the very reasons you mentioned about Zhaitan’s body – they feared that Glint’s body, retaining its magic, could be used for harmful reasons in the wrong hands.

Evidently, the magic of the Zephyrite crystals actually comes from Glint’s corpse, though the crystals we see aren’t directly from her body but grown separate.

As for the magic in Zhaitan’s corpse – some speculate this is where Tequatl’s power boost came from.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

WP’s theory hinges on the notion that the Cleansing Ritual that Trahearne used empowers Mordremoth. But there’s no reason for this to be – just like how Glint’s Lair, and her egg, remained separate from Kralkatorrik’s power it only makes sense for the same to be said of the Pale Tree’s power from Mordremoth. This would also explain why Mordremoth sought to kill/damage the Pale Tree, implying he cannot simply re-corrupt it.

I recall a twitchtv talk with Jeff and Ree shortly before release (now long removed, and a real shame too as during that livestream talk they compared Glint to Kuunavang despite it being well known then that Glint was a dragon champion), where they intentionally left it open for what the fate of Glint’s children/eggs were, and whether or not Kralkatorrik took control of them, while simultaneously mentioning that Glint remained fully free of Kralkatorrik. If the Pale Tree was freed from Mordremoth by the same or similar methods as Glint was from Kralkatorrik, then the Pale Tree would thus be immune to re-corruption. In turn, so would her direct magic – just as Glint’s Lair remained untouched despite the fact that the battle with Kralkatorrik happened in the skies above it, and he breathed his corruptive breath over the land several times over.

Caladbolg was used to cleanse Orr, not Trahearne, so it would stand to reason that Orr has become like Glint’s Lair. And just as Glint’s Lair remains untouched by Kralkatorrik… so would Orr from Mordremoth by extension.

That said

As to Zhaitan’s body, instutionalized, you’re correct about dragon corpses retaining the magic they consumed. This was brought up during Bazaar of the Four Winds in S1 during the short story Trek of the Zephyrites (parts of which can be found scattered in Dry Top), which described them recovering Glint’s body, and doing so for the very reasons you mentioned about Zhaitan’s body – they feared that Glint’s body, retaining its magic, could be used for harmful reasons in the wrong hands.

Evidently, the magic of the Zephyrite crystals actually comes from Glint’s corpse, though the crystals we see aren’t directly from her body but grown separate.

As for the magic in Zhaitan’s corpse – some speculate this is where Tequatl’s power boost came from.

is it possible that glint’s seeming “immunity” to recorruption was from the Forgotten ritual?

we know that the dream is what protects sylvari from mordremoth, is it possible that the pale tree is protected from recorruption by the dream rather than an innate property of freed champions?

(for example, what about malyck’s tree? it is a free champion as well, but it lacks the dream, if it turns out that it has got corrupted, then it may imply that the pale tree’s equivalent of Glint’s Lair is not the Grove or Orr, but the Dream itself)

we know from the sylvari that the offspring of a free dragon champion can be recorrupted, so what about caladbolg? it is a creation of the pale tree much like the sylvari, can it be corrupted too? what would happen if Trahearne got corrupted and used a corrupt caladbolg in Orr?

While you raise interesting points, Konig, I actually think WP’s theory is a nice touch and an interesting plot thread to follow. You said that since the Pale Tree seems to be absolutely free of Mordremoth’s influence, Caladbolg, which was used to cleanse Orr, could not be an instrument of corruption.

However, if we think of Caladbolg of something akin to the One Ring, something that was made with a taint (As the seed for the Pale Tree was) but that can be used with good intentions (albeit in the end will have evil consequences), then the possibility of Mordremoth vying for Orr’s control is not so remote.

WP’s point is Caladbolg and the vines and plants that sprouted from the Artisan Waters upon the Cleansing ritual was done. Up to that point, I believe the theory is not viable. Mordremoth was fast asleep back then! It was only a couple of years later, when Scarlet made her move, that the ED woke up.

So, what I propose is a little different. What if, instead of this being a master plan from the beginning, which would pose MMoth was aware of unfolding events even while slumbering, those plants and vines were just a symbol of life returning to Orr; but NOW, now that MMoth is awake, he can USE them as a conduit for his power, for his corruption? Those waters reach all over Orr, which is how Zhaitan corrupted its land; it would be a forward post for MMoth to begin an even bigger offensive into Tyria.

So, to summarize: Mordremoth did not plan to use Traherne and Caladbolg to wrestle Orr from Zhaitan’s control; but the Cleansing provided him with a way to invade, now that he’s awake, and probably aware of the power void left in the previously sunken human kingdom.

Calcifire.1864:

is it possible that glint’s seeming “immunity” to recorruption was from the Forgotten ritual?

Hmmm, it could go either way.

The Forgotten ritual only gave her free will, according to Warden Illyra. However, Forgotten magic is known to be immune to dragon corruption, so it could have also – without Illyra knowing – added a “cannot be corrupted again”.

But given that it only gave free will, Glint was still “technically” corrupted – being a creature of crystal still. She was, by all intents and purposes, still a branded. And can you make a branded out of a branded? Unclear. Was Glint ever separated from the ‘hive mind’ that Kralkatorrik has with its minions? Unclear – he did know where exactly to find her upon waking, after all. And I doubt she’d go taunting him in his sleep saying stuff like “when you wake up, I’ll be waiting in the Crystal Desert to kill you!”

Calcifire.1864:

we know that the dream is what protects sylvari from mordremoth, is it possible that the pale tree is protected from recorruption by the dream rather than an innate property of freed champions?

The thing about the Dream’s protection is that it kills those corrupted. That’s the sylvari “immunity” – they cannot walk around in corruption, they simply die rather than being transformed.

So it may not be along the same lines. If the indication of Glint’s lair’s survival is what I believe it to be.

Calcifire.1864:

we know from the sylvari that the offspring of a free dragon champion can be recorrupted, so what about caladbolg? it is a creation of the pale tree much like the sylvari, can it be corrupted too? what would happen if Trahearne got corrupted and used a corrupt caladbolg in Orr?

Caladbolg is literally a piece of the Pale Tree, while the sylvari are grown from her. So I would argue that if the Pale Tree cannot be recorrupted – as implied by Mordremoth trying to kill her instead of corrupt her – then I would also argue that Caladbolg cannot be recorrupted.

But if a mordrem were to use corruption in Orr, then by all indications the same would happen as if the mrodrem used corruption elsewhere – unless my theory above proves right, and Orr is “protected” from Mordremoth’s corrupted because it’s already “corrupted” but in a lighter way.

It should be noted that as we see with Glint’s and the Pale Tree’s magic versus Kralkatorrik’s and Mordremoth’s magic respectively, there’s a clear “light versus dark”.

Glint’s Lair and crystalline creatures in GW1 were bright blue and light, while Kralkatorrik’s crystals and creatures are dark purple and black. Glint’s air magic (used by Zephyrites) is bright and clear skies, while Kralkatorrik’s air magic results in a perpetual thunderstorm called the Brandstorm by Sentinels. Pale Tree’s plants grown are bright, light green, often thornless, while Mordremoth’s – like the Nightmare Court’s – are dark, hard-bark, covered with thorns, and sinister looking.

There’s a very clear distinction of “good versus evil” in these two purified champions’ magic compared to their original masters’ magic.

Rhaegar.1203:

While you raise interesting points, Konig, I actually think WP’s theory is a nice touch and an interesting plot thread to follow.

Perhaps.

But honestly, why would Mordremoth need Zhaitan’s corpse? He doesn’t use the corpses themselves, and he can use living beings as well.

Why wouldn’t Mordremoth merely create copies of himself?

Or maybe he has… and that’s what the Shadow of the Dragon is. A literal copy of “the Dragon” (aka Mordremoth). A shadow of the original.

Rhaegar.1203:

However, if we think of Caladbolg of something akin to the One Ring, something that was made with a taint (As the seed for the Pale Tree was) but that can be used with good intentions (albeit in the end will have evil consequences), then the possibility of Mordremoth vying for Orr’s control is not so remote.

But Caladbolg wasn’t made with a taint. No more than the Pale Tree itself as it is a literal piece of the Pale Tree.

Rhaegar.1203:

So, to summarize: Mordremoth did not plan to use Traherne and Caladbolg to wrestle Orr from Zhaitan’s control; but the Cleansing provided him with a way to invade, now that he’s awake, and probably aware of the power void left in the previously sunken human kingdom.

Would make more sense than WP’s theory, but would require him to be capable of corrupting the Pale Tree’s magic as he can corrupt the sylvari.

But there’s a certain difference between the two. Sylvari are sapient, and “willingly” takes in Mordremoth’s corruption through trickery (Mordremoth pretending his whispers are their own thoughts) – those sylvari with strong wills can resist… magic doesn’t have a will, but it isn’t sapient either. You can’t whisper an animate object to let you in.

So the question is… is the Pale Tree’s magic also protected by the Dream?

If it is, then there’d be no Wyld Hunt for Mordremoth to use as kitten in the protection, making it immune to him without direct recorruption.

If it isn’t, then there’d be nothing to stop Mordremoth from controlling it – but again, he’d have to directly (be it personally or via minions) recorrupt the magic.

Which then falls down to the question: can the Pale Tree – and by extension, her magic – be recorrupted?

We have a difference of opinions, because I do think the Caladbolg had a taint from the get go; as you said, the sword is part of the Pale Tree, like a branch or bloom. Seeing as Ronan took a seed from a mysterious cave, surrounded by strange creatures, and it is heavily implied that other seeds had been there and are the sources of other Trees, I think that the seed that sprouted to form the Pale Tree had this taint.

Only due to the care of Ronan and later Ventari, did the Pale Tree get “cleansed” of the corruption or taint. Dragon corruption is removable: we not only have an example of this with the Forgotten path in Arah, but Mawdry itself is an example, as the flavor text for the Mysterious vine says that “This vine, while appearing to be touched by Mordremoth, has been grown from seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria.”

So Caladbolg can inherently have a taint; the Pale Tree may still have some part of the Mordremoth energies inside: Let’s not forget the Shadow of the Dragon fought in the Dream when starting the Sylvari PS. The Mother may be holding that “dark passenger” (to quote Dexter) at bay.

Define “taint” then.

To me, it would be corruption by Mordremoth in this case. But having been purified, the Pale Tree is thus taintless – and I would argue the rest of that cave was too, given the lack of indication of Ventari going and performing a grand ritual on the Pale Tree.

So if the Pale Tree is without taint, so too would anything she makes. And this is true – until they’re influenced by outside sources like the Dream, Nightmare, and Mordremoth. Though the Dream is “good” so there’s no indication of “taint” in a negative sense; the Nightmare and Mordremoth are different situations, but we’ve been told that the two are not linked and that the Nightmare Court don’t intend to follow Mordremoth.

I will stress that NOTHING indicates that the Pale Tree was freed “due to care of Ronan and later Ventari” – this is 100% player speculation that has been proven false time and time again. Dragon minions are slaves, it’s not a matter of proper raising or convincing (aka nurture). They don’t have free will. Something must give them that free will first.

And about Mawdrey – no, it is not an example. Why? Just look at all the stuff we feed it. Foefire magic, which is known to be immune to corruption and even counter act it (Kralkatorrik couldn’t corrupt the ghosts, and during A Grisly Shipment and Armor Guard ghostfire – from the Foefire – is used to fight risen and it is far more effective against risen than standard beasts). We have Mists magic. We have destroyer magic. We have a whole much of oddities being used. It could be any one of them – or the combination of it all – that allowed Mawdrey to be influenced by the PC and become “friendly”.

And dragon corruption isn’t removeable. The Forgotten path only gave Glint free will – it didn’t remove the transforming corruption. Same with Mawdrey – it still looks like a mordrem.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Define “taint” then.

To me, it would be corruption by Mordremoth in this case. But having been purified, the Pale Tree is thus taintless – and I would argue the rest of that cave was too, given the lack of indication of Ventari going and performing a grand ritual on the Pale Tree.

So you’re saying that when Ronan found the seed, these pods were already pure?
…how!?
Let’s see, if we accept that Sylvari “come from the Dragon”, then the seed must come from him too, otherwise the race cannot stem from him. The fact that has been stated all over the announcements is that Mordremoth called, and many Sylvari answered.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So if the Pale Tree is without taint, so too would anything she makes. And this is true – until they’re influenced by outside sources like the Dream, Nightmare, and Mordremoth. Though the Dream is “good” so there’s no indication of “taint” in a negative sense; the Nightmare and Mordremoth are different situations, but we’ve been told that the two are not linked and that the Nightmare Court don’t intend to follow Mordremoth.

You are thinking only in black or white. What I pose is that, while the care of Ronan and then Ventari cleansed the Pale Tree, it was not complete. Something remained, that the Mother is constantly fighting. And Canach, the (Sylvari) PC and Laranthir, among others, clearly show that the call of Mordremoth CAN be resisted; so they are, in essence, free willed, but still can be tempted.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I will stress that NOTHING indicates that the Pale Tree was freed “due to care of Ronan and later Ventari” – this is 100% player speculation that has been proven false time and time again. Dragon minions are slaves, it’s not a matter of proper raising or convincing (aka nurture). They don’t have free will. Something must give them that free will first.

If what you says is true, that R&V’s actions had nothing to do with the Pale Tree being “good”, then someone needs to edit http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree. It clearly reads:

Wiki:

[…]He and the peaceful centaur Ventari then tended the young tree, and their attitudes and philosophy had a significant influence on her nature.[…]

Not only that, but once again, if we accept that Sylvari are Dragon minions, and yet they show free will and… resilience to his beckoning… then some sort of cleansing must have happened, even if it was partial.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And about Mawdrey – no, it is not an example. Why? Just look at all the stuff we feed it. Foefire magic, which is known to be immune to corruption and even counter act it (Kralkatorrik couldn’t corrupt the ghosts, and during A Grisly Shipment and Armor Guard ghostfire – from the Foefire – is used to fight risen and it is far more effective against risen than standard beasts). We have Mists magic. We have destroyer magic. We have a whole much of oddities being used. It could be any one of them – or the combination of it all – that allowed Mawdrey to be influenced by the PC and become “friendly”.

Alright, that’s true, we gave it all that. Maybe it was one of the ingredients, or all combined. Or, you know, the empathy that the PC showed by jumping through hoops to give Mawdrey what it needed. The fact is, only one line is written about its conversion, and it’s the one I quoted on my previous post.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And dragon corruption isn’t removeable. The Forgotten path only gave Glint free will – it didn’t remove the transforming corruption. Same with Mawdrey – it still looks like a mordrem.

You speak of Dragon corruption merely as a physical malady. ED also affect the mind, you have said so yourself: minions don’t have free will. King Reza was affected, Glint was affected, the risen chicken was affected. Restoring their free will did not remove their physical transformation (or decay), but perhaps there is no spell developed for that… yet.

Rhaegar.1203:

So you’re saying that when Ronan found the seed, these pods were already pure?
…how!?
Let’s see, if we accept that Sylvari “come from the Dragon”, then the seed must come from him too, otherwise the race cannot stem from him. The fact that has been stated all over the announcements is that Mordremoth called, and many Sylvari answered.

The same way Glint was, or at least a similar way. I don’t see how the sylvari coming from the dragon statement is changed.

But let me throw what you said back at you:

So you’re saying that Ronan and Ventari purified those seeds?
…how!?

And on one note: nothing said anything about pods in the cave Ronan found the seeds. Just seeds and “plant monsters”.

Rhaegar.1203:

You are thinking only in black or white. What I pose is that, while the care of Ronan and then Ventari cleansed the Pale Tree, it was not complete. Something remained, that the Mother is constantly fighting. And Canach, the (Sylvari) PC and Laranthir, among others, clearly show that the call of Mordremoth CAN be resisted; so they are, in essence, free willed, but still can be tempted.

And who’s to say that Glint’s offspring differ?

Maybe that’s why Glint was alone when Destiny’s Edge came at her, and when Kralkatorrik came. She feared he would take control of any remaining Crystal Guardians, Crystal Spiders, or her eggs.

Besides, I don’t think I’m thinking in black and white. I fully agree with what you said – except for the notion that the Pale Tree was purified by the care of Ronan and Ventari. Too many contraditions.

First, we have the fact that other Pale Trees, not corrupted by Mordremoth, exist out there. Mainly, Malyck and his tree.

Second, we have the fact that dragon corruption results in the enslavement of will. This is why every dragon minion will fight for their dragon regardless of how much they hated the dragons before. You do not go from “we will kill the Elder Dragon and its minions!” to “Join Zhaitan and live eternally in undeath!” in a matter of seconds (literally) without some sort of mental enslavement (note: this situation was seen first hand with Bronn Svaar in Sea of Sorrows).

Third, we have nothing from Ronan and Ventari’s lives that indicate anything that would be powerful enough to give free will – no strange magics used. The only oddity is Ventari’s Tablet, but this is a mere piece of stone. Nothing special to it.

Rhaegar.1203:

If what you says is true, that R&V’s actions had nothing to do with the Pale Tree being “good”, then someone needs to edit http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree. It clearly reads:

Wiki:

[…]He and the peaceful centaur Ventari then tended the young tree, and their attitudes and philosophy had a significant influence on her nature.[…]

Not only that, but once again, if we accept that Sylvari are Dragon minions, and yet they show free will and… resilience to his beckoning… then some sort of cleansing must have happened, even if it was partial.

Guidance != purification

When Glint was purified from the Forgotten, she did not instantly turn against Kralkatorrik. It wasn’t until she heard the thoughts of those she killed, as well as the thoughts of her master, that she realized that Kralkatorrik would lead to the world’s end, and that the races were suffering and should not (in her opinion) suffer.

Free will alone does not mean separation from the Elder Dragon’s goals or servitude. It merely gives the opportunity for that separation. And even that separation doesn’t necessitate that the freed minion will aid the races of the world – it could result in a dragon minion seeking to replace the Elder Dragon.

The Pale Tree was separated from Mordremoth at some point. But as she was raised, she was nurtured by Ventari’s teachings and took them as her own.

Rhaegar.1203:

Alright, that’s true, we gave it all that. Maybe it was one of the ingredients, or all combined. Or, you know, the empathy that the PC showed by jumping through hoops to give Mawdrey what it needed. The fact is, only one line is written about its conversion, and it’s the one I quoted on my previous post.

Only line? Not really. But every line about it is always about nurture. But here’s the curious part…

It only starts being kind after being fed the Foefire essence and Sacred Plant Food. Before that, the descriptions talk about the “carniverous plant” having a “wild streak” to it. Here’s the most interesting one:

This young carnivorous plant has a wild streak to it. A meal of purified Sacred Plant Food should help it grow to be more obedient.

The Sacred Plant Food is made by standard plant food and “Purified Vial of Sacred Glacial Water”. With the following description: This cool clear mineral water from a sacred glacier could purify and nourish a magically growing plant.

Hmmmm…..

Purifying water and Foefire essence… results in turning a hostile dragon minion into a calm one… Coincidence?

Rhaegar.1203:

You speak of Dragon corruption merely as a physical malady. ED also affect the mind, you have said so yourself: minions don’t have free will. King Reza was affected, Glint was affected, the risen chicken was affected. Restoring their free will did not remove their physical transformation (or decay), but perhaps there is no spell developed for that… yet.

First off, Reza’s soul was not corrupted. It was imprisoned. There’s a difference – Zhaitan never corrupted souls (unless you consider Risen Wraiths to be that), but instead imprisoned them in his stronger, smarter, minions. Reza’s body was corrupted, and was not freed from that corruption, but slain.

But I did not intend to mean that dragon corruption is only a physical malady – if that was so, then there wouldn’t be such an issue with it as there is. Dragon corruption is a two-fold act. And the Forgotten ritual did not reverse either by any indication.

As I said, Kralkatorrik somehow knew where exactly to find Glint upon awaking. Elder Dragons know what their minions and champions know, and can communicate with them. What if this communication was never severed – after all, Glint hearing Kralkatorrik’s thoughts is one of the things that drove her to rebel. So then, the Forgotten ritual did not cleanse her mind either. It merely gave her free will – and with that free will, she chose – but not immediately – to betray Kralkatorrik. And he would know the instant she decided such if that link wasn’t broken.

Dunno if this has already been mentioned and there are way too many walls of text for me to bother checking. XD

Kind of in support of the theory that Mordremoth wants Zhaitan’s dead body for nefarious purposes.

After being told everything we’ve been told and seeing everything we’ve seen we’ve made a few assumptions.

We assume Mordremoth has a big dragony form because we’ve seen a dragony mouth, a foot, an almost-wing and his handsom big face.

We also assume everything we’ve seen of him thus far is in the Jungle.

Let’s start assuming otherwise.

Zhaitan’s design showed us that Anet can break the typical dragon design. He wasn’t so much a dragon but a flying fortress of recycled horrors rotting into eachother to form a creature that could make Cthulhu blush.

Taking another look at the release trailer where we get a good look at Mordremoth, the dragon himself.

I think he’s formless. He IS this world, so he says.
A massless being manipulating every thing from the blades of grass under your feet to an entire Race you thought were your friends. Not a physical dragon, he’s just a mind (with an unlimited supply of plant matter. Uh oh!).

A thought-dragon that invaded the minds of his Sylvari and drove them mad.

Avatar (the one with the blue people) would have been alot more interesting if this guy showed up >.>

So!

The opening mouth we see, taking his first breath of magic after Scarlet became the worlds craziest alarm clock, is simply that, just the mouth. We don’t see what it’s attached to, nor do we see what that giant foot is attached to in the trailer. Same goes for his almost-wing.

And when he comes face to face with Rytlock, we don’t see a head and a body, we see a twisting mass of vines being sculpted into a face like thing. All the nearby plant life simply slithers it’s way to his puppeteering stage.

Simply because he needed us to see him Smile.

What big teeth you theoretically have, Mr Mordremoth.

Now if the thought-dragon theory is true, assume that he’s actually not getting himself together in that scene as his “Final Form!” And he actually has just done that to break the ice with us. Whatever his “form” is, it’s already out there in it’s final state and this smiling face is just a way to say hi to Rytlock.

And if that’s true then you know this is gonna be one of those super hard bosses that takes us hours, only to find out that the bad guy can pull that one out his butt for a party trick.

And now to my point. At the very beginning of the trailer, just before we see a humanoid worrior being formed out of vines, we see larger vines twisting around something….

Is that a giant rib cage?

We don’t know what Orr looks like these days (though theres probably a Starbucks) but we do know it’s been “cleansed”.

Cleansing sounds a little sinister in hind sight, huh!? Quotation marks can’t help either.

Mordremoth is smart, if we’re Sherlock, he’s Moriarty. He had the foreknowledge to raise an entire Race of seemingly the most trustworthy creatures to work their way into our society and strike from within. Ultimate sleeper agents.

Even though Scarlet woke him up early he’s still kicking our butts…. Or maybe he woke up right on time.

When I say he is smart, that also means I think he has a complex personality, he wants something. What would a mind like his want? A mind with no physical form and yet the owner of a billion creatures that have what he can’t.

He want’s a body.

I like to imagine Mordremoth as a bitter old man, ancient in fact. He had a bad temper when he was just a kid, only a few hundred years old! A temper made worse because he always lacked something the other dragons had and they just rubbed that right in his face (if he had one. HA!).

He had to sit there with nothing but sunlight to satisfy him, jealously watching as the others as they feasted, fought, flew and ffffffff- went to social gatherings.
Now he can do something about that and he’s got millennias worth of rage to take out… On us. Figures.
That sounds like an antagonist I almost want to see win.

Some of the Sylvari had a built in need to kill Zhaitan or clense Orr. They were born knowing their purpose. Because that purpose isn’t their own.

And now Mordremoth happens to rise right when there’s a fresh dragon corpse laying around, not just any dragon, an elder dragon.

Fit for Mordremoth to inhabit and finally take his physical place as king of the hill, not through the eyes of his minions or the faux bodies he twists into shape from vines. His first had experience. Picture seeing colour for the first time in your life and you’re thousands of years old, now up the magnitude a few hundred percent. He won’t wanna let go of that any time soon.

Buckle up folks, I’ve got a feeling that this dragon won’t go down as easy.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Caladbolg is literally a piece of the Pale Tree, while the sylvari are grown from her. So I would argue that if the Pale Tree cannot be recorrupted – as implied by Mordremoth trying to kill her instead of corrupt her – then I would also argue that Caladbolg cannot be recorrupted.

Caladbolg, a thorn of the pale tree, is as grown from her as a sylvari, ergo it can be corrupted. While Mordremoth fails to corrupt the treemother herself, likely due to her willpower, I don’t see why he wouldn’t be able to corrupt something thats separated from her direct influence, as the sylvari. Why he wouldn’t be able to corrupt the vines spreading from the fountain in Orr. If anything the reason caladbolg cannot be corrupted would be it is in fact a dead peace of wood containing just a bunch of magic. The question is, is it dead or is it still a working organism like a separated vine from an ivy which can be put in dirt and survive, growing again.
Anyway, her magic cleanses the area of Orr from zaithans corruption, allowing vines to grow/life seeping back into Orr. But these vines are not attached to her, are a organism of their own, so they can be corrupted by Mordremoth again. So its a possibility for him to take advantage of them.

I agree with you that the seeds Ronan found doesn’t have to be corrupted in the first place. I would guess the seeds were uncorrupted and meant to be corrupted while/after growing, so there was no need for Ventari to cleanse it with powerful magic and rituals.
But its still possible that theres a ‘taint’ to the pale tree/caladbolg. In the cutscene you get from sylvari character creation is mentioned that something dark creeps in the dream, growing. Thats very likely to be Mordremoth corruption that already got hold of parts of the dream/the pale tree while she was growing and tapping with her roots deeper into the jungle – weak due to the fact Mordremoth was still sleeping, not able to speak and corrupt the young, curious mind of her with full conciousness, but with a slight empathic connection – which she tries to shield of now as far as possible from her children. But its there and can’t be removed, because she has no power over this kind of corruption.

Amraston.2846:

Caladbolg, a thorn of the pale tree, is as grown from her as a sylvari, ergo it can be corrupted.

Honestly, this comparison sounds like comparing a breaking off a fingernail to giving childbirth to me.

Amraston.2846:

But its still possible that theres a ‘taint’ to the pale tree/caladbolg. In the cutscene you get from sylvari character creation is mentioned that something dark creeps in the dream, growing. Thats very likely to be Mordremoth corruption that already got hold of parts of the dream/the pale tree while she was growing and tapping with her roots deeper into the jungle -snip-

It always came off as referring to the Nightmare, which is a dark part of the Dream and has been growing thanks to the Nightmare Court. But it’s also been indicated lately to be unrelated to Mordremoth.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We know one of his tails was taken to the Durmand Priory- we see it there in S2 of the Living World- but other than that, nothing. My bet, personally, is that it’s something too big to dispose of, and so it’s left where it is- under guard, perhaps, if the area has been sufficiently pacified.

How do you eat a elephant? One bite at a time. Heroes have been disposing of Zhaitan for years now https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shard_of_Zhaitan , one piece at a time :P

Calcifire.1864:

is it possible that glint’s seeming “immunity” to recorruption was from the Forgotten ritual?

No so far it seem you can’t be double corrupted (as also is the case with Sylvari), without scientific intervention. Glint was already corrupted by Kralky. Sure she was freed, but retained some of the physical corruption.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Forgotten ritual only gave her free will, according to Warden Illyra. However, Forgotten magic is known to be immune to dragon corruption, so it could have also – without Illyra knowing – added a “cannot be corrupted again”.

I think this might be a bit of semantics. If Forgotten magic is immune to dragon corruption it would seem that they’d have done a lot better against the EDs during the last rise (also would be EDs be able to consume their magic? i.e. would be bloodstones have been necessary for them). Or is it rather that they developed means of warding off ED minions and corruption.
Unless you have a link (very likely I imagine)?

Rhaegar.1203:

You speak of Dragon corruption merely as a physical malady. ED also affect the mind, you have said so yourself: minions don’t have free will. King Reza was affected, Glint was affected, the risen chicken was affected. Restoring their free will did not remove their physical transformation (or decay), but perhaps there is no spell developed for that… yet.

I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. Sons of Svanir probably demonstrate the most free will (initially at least), and several of Zhaitan’s champions demonstrate a lot of autonomy (granted autonomy in as far as their actions ultimately serve the dragon). So I’d say it’s more of a spectrum. No minion is ever truly free, but not all minions are not as mindless as the run of the mill cannon fodder.
Although I guess ‘free will’ has always been a bit of a tricky subject. Debatably a champion dragon minion has as much free will as any human being. Or not.

Takireo.8329:

I think he’s formless. He IS this world, so he says.

I wouldn’t say formless, since we know that some of the vines are possibly physically connected to him. He might be a bundle of vines (as indicated by the launch trailer) or those might simply have been him physically manifesting through the vines (i.e. those vines were simply some of the many vines attached to him which he shaped into something big and scary).
As for his claim of being the world, I assumed that was simply his perception of things. Elder Dragons have been around for thousands of years and play a role in regulating magic i.e. they are very literally a mechanism of balance of Tyria. If they perceive themselves in anyway it’s very likely that they perceive themselves as being a part of the world like the oceans, rivers and mountains are all a part of the world.

CureForLiving.5360:

Calcifire.1864:

is it possible that glint’s seeming “immunity” to recorruption was from the Forgotten ritual?

No so far it seem you can’t be double corrupted (as also is the case with Sylvari), without scientific intervention. Glint was already corrupted by Kralky. Sure she was freed, but retained some of the physical corruption.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Depending on your interpretation, you can take the Pale Tree’s lines to sylvari during Rallying Call (S2E3’s first instance) to indicate that it is the Dream that prevents sylvari corruption – and that only Mordremoth can bypass it.

Of course, until we toss a Soundless into the Dragonbrand and wait, we can’t really tell which interpretation is accurate.

CureForLiving.5360:

I think this might be a bit of semantics. If Forgotten magic is immune to dragon corruption it would seem that they’d have done a lot better against the EDs during the last rise (also would be EDs be able to consume their magic? i.e. would be bloodstones have been necessary for them). Or is it rather that they developed means of warding off ED minions and corruption.
Unless you have a link (very likely I imagine)?

Arah’s Forgotten path, the Wraithlord and its minions can’t destroy or corrupt the magically-infused Forgotten artifacts we find before the ritual (a vase and a book).

CureForLiving.5360:

I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. Sons of Svanir probably demonstrate the most free will (initially at least), and several of Zhaitan’s champions demonstrate a lot of autonomy (granted autonomy in as far as their actions ultimately serve the dragon). So I’d say it’s more of a spectrum. No minion is ever truly free, but not all minions are not as mindless as the run of the mill cannon fodder.
Although I guess ‘free will’ has always been a bit of a tricky subject. Debatably a champion dragon minion has as much free will as any human being. Or not.

Firstly, Sons of Svanir aren’t dragon minions.

But more importantly, on the matter of champions – they do have a level of autonomy, but all indication shows that they are still just as different from the living state as any other dragon minion. Take Captain Whiting from Sea of Sorrows. In life, he was a timid introverted person who was hesitant to serve his king, while as a dragon champion he was harsh, constantly-talking individual who constantly worked for Zhaitan’s benefit.

All dragon champions seem to exhibit similar approaches – their actions always benefit their dragon, they serve their dragon, but they have a choice in the “how” to serve… while the cannon fodder as you call them don’t.

CureForLiving.5360:

He might be a bundle of vines (as indicated by the launch trailer)

I believe it was confirmed that the thing at the end of the trailer was NOT Mordremoth.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

this is 100% player speculation that has been proven false time and time again.

Well to be fair, didn’t you say the same thing about Sylvari being dragon minions? :P

Technically what I said – or intended to get across – was that the arguments people made for sylvari being dragon minions didn’t add up to what dragon minions are.

And they still don’t. Sylvari are unique amongst dragon minions – probably due to the constant revisions they got to avoid the reveal being too obvious (so we were told happened).

I thought they called it a “vine creature”, but didn’t confirm it was/wasn’t Mordremoth. If that scene plays out in a similar form in the story, they may be using the term “vine creature” to keep people guessing and speculating.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

this is 100% player speculation that has been proven false time and time again.

Well to be fair, didn’t you say the same thing about Sylvari being dragon minions? :P

Psh. It’s pretty clear that ArenaNet just took that theory and rolled with it, since their reveal was so shoddily executed.

“We came from the Jungle Dragon cause my Dream said so!”

Nilkemia.8507:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

this is 100% player speculation that has been proven false time and time again.

Well to be fair, didn’t you say the same thing about Sylvari being dragon minions? :P

Psh. It’s pretty clear that ArenaNet just took that theory and rolled with it, since their reveal was so shoddily executed.

“We came from the Jungle Dragon cause my Dream said so!”

How else would a Sylvari know they came from the dragon? Certainly the Pale Tree wasn’t going to tell them, and I don’t think it’s one of those secrets you can just simple across while running through the world.

Well one good way would have been to find a sylvari from another tree (e.g., Malyck) and watch them go mad and turn into a fullblown dragon minion – or to find a Blighted Tree and see how it’s practically the same as the Pale Tree, but such would still leave room for interpretation which, imo, would have been the way to go until HoT itself and sylvari PCs hearing Mordrmoth’s calling.

I like the idea that he wants z’s body but I don’t know if that’s the direction they’re headed