gods and dragons
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I’ll get you some goggles and you can find out for us :P
But they are risen. They are called
risen, even if their names are not.
Risen are called undead.
Undead are called risen.With the exception of mentions of Joko and any rare mention of GW1 events, the term “undead” in GW2 is used interchangably with the term “risen”.
So, it’s just another bug to put undead and risen in the same instance? I don’t think so, because most of the undead are in a separate position.
Orrian = Undead = Risen
The terms are interchangeably used by the NPCs.
Annoying? Yes. Confusing? Apparently. Fact? Yes.
The spy might really not be the best example, since we are having the first contact here for the undead orrian elder dragon which produces risen.
orrian = population of Orr (even if dead)
undead = not living but moving creatures
risen = dragon corruption (which probably doesn’t even belong to this dragon or is affected through consuption of a certain magic)
As long as you don’t see a difference between risen and common undead and orrians, the whole discussion gets pointless.
Not sure why we’re having so much issue with this, but again.
It is not a bug.
Undead and risen are synonymous in this game. They literally are the same thing with different names, even if necromancer minions are also called undead.
Here. A black jaguar and a black leopard are both called panthers. But where I live, mountain lions are also called panthers – as well as being called cougars and pumas. It’s the same animal with many different names. Just because I might call a mountain lion a “panther” does not make that mountain lion the same thing as black leopard. It isn’t the same animal at all. They just share a name.
As well, whether you call it a panther, a puma, a cougar, or a mountain lion, it’s always the same animal, but not every animal called a panther is a mountain lion. Another example is calling a mountain lion a cat. It IS a cat, but it’s not the same thing as a house cat.
This sort of thing is exactly what is happening here with Risen. They fall under the “undead umbrella,” so it’s fine to refer to them as undead. The ones referred to as undead are not a different thing from other risen. They’re just risen under a different name, but not everything that is called undead is a risen, such as necromancer minions and whatever the hell Mad King Thorn’s minions are.
In this case, when you see monsters with the name “Risen” and “Undead” in a group together, or “Undead” working on Zhaitan’s side, they are always risen. I even confirmed earlier that these “undead,” when they have dialogue, have the exact same dialogue as normally named risen, and that undead wraiths are just the Elite version of risen wraiths. The reason why you would never see another undead type (such as Joko’s followers) mixed in with Risen is because the risen would absolutely slaughter them, no matter the intent of the Other-Undead. That’s just how risen work, and Zhaitan has never been noted to accept followers.
Aside from that, an NPC somewhere would acknowledge it if they were actually something else mixed in with the risen, like Sons of Svanir that haven’t gone icebrood yet. They’re fully acknowledged in the story. Just like they acknowledge that Jormag “accepts” willing followers. I know Anet likes to be vague sometimes, but not with things like that.
Regarding “undead” being in a separate position.. They’re not? The only time this happens that I can recall is whenever the Scout (risen drake with a translucent overlay) shows up without any other risen, and I think that only happens in the Priory and Order versions of the quest, where it’s called an “Orrian Scout” and “Risen Creature” respectively, even though it’s presumably the same creature in all three. I just did the Vigil version yesterday, it showed up with a risen shark (which isn’t noted at all on the wiki). This is the version where it’s called an “Undead Scout.”
Even “Undead Sharks” in Breaking the Bone Ship have risen thralls and risen sharks mixed in with them.
The singular exception to this that I can think of of the top of my head are the Shades that show up in the Cathedral of Silence during the Grenth Temple event, but to make things even more convoluted and funny, that’s because the Risen Priest is a necromancer and they’re undoubtedly his minions. Due to their master and the environment from which they were raised being corrupted, they should probably be considered corrupted/risen-by-proxy. Not to mention that those particular Shades, and I think only those, use an attack called “Corruption.”
Is there a definition for souls in guildwars? When can I define something as soulless?
Yes, but it isn’t exactly clear. Soul, spirits, ghosts – all the same thing. Nightmares appear to be overtly hostile souls, ghosts are souls that linger in the world.
In GW1, most undead are claimed to be soulless. Only the more powerful spellcasters were capable of controlling souls (aside from ritualists but they did things differently) – such as Khilbron, Shiro, Fendin Nin, Murakai, and possibly Palawa Joko. So traditionally, with exception of special cases like liches and probably sentient standard undead, undead appear to be soulless. This is not always the case with risen and even then, the standard risen is capable of more speech but less tactics than the standard undead.
Some events are done over a long time (like killing Ulgoth and overtaking the whole map is a war of several years).
Tequatl fled before the update and dies now at the end of the event. He got stronger, why should the risen reduce as long as we put them on the same side? That the probes are placed in Orr is basically the proof that Orr is after the personal story.
Nothing says that “several years” takes place in Harathi Hinterlands. They take time, sure, but nothing really indicates that the centaurs are pushing in Queensdale and Kessex Hills while also being pushed back in Harathi Hinterlands for example.
The risen should reduce because that’s what we were told is happening after killing Zhaitan.
Trahearne: Victory at last. With Zhaitan defeated, the corruption it wrought can be undone. The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated. One day soon, that plague will be but a memory.
So the dragon is angry, because he got what he wanted? Nothing aside from our allies and our mission tells that there is an artifact. Furthermore Eye & Mouth & champion to claim an artifact in an empty temple, what an army, must be a very very important artifact. It’s about Alzudin and we kill him, because that’s the real task. Why would Trahearne involve a Largos assassin for it?
The dragon is angry because one of its champions was killed. This is no different than Zhaitan’s roar of pain and frustration at the end of Sea of Sorrows novel.
The Mouth of Zhaitan consumes artifacts, the Eye of Zhaitan sends its visions of Zhaitan. If there’s no threat to them (the Pact invasion is only beginning at this point), why wouldn’t he send those so he can instantly see and consume the magic of the temple?
Though honestly, their placement there was more to show them to the players to explain the next goals.
It is NOT about Alzudin. If you actually read the dialogue, you’ll know:
Trahearne: Zhaitan craves something inside that temple, so we must get there first. Sayeh will accompany you as a guide.
(Talking to Trahearne):
-> What’s the mission?
You and Sayeh are to investigate the Temple of Abbadon [sic] and discover why Zhaitan’s minions have displayed such a keen interest in it. I suspect they’re seeking something powerful.
<Character name>: It was victory, but we lost the artifact.
(talking to Trahearne upon returning):
-> We came up short, but we saw two remarkable creatures.
The point was to figure out why Zhaitan was interested in the temple. It turned out to be an artifact that (iirc) we could see the Mouth consuming as we approached them. When the Mouth and Eye left, Alzudin remained to kill us – but we killed him, and killing a champion results in dragon roars (happened with Captain Whiting’s death in SoS; happened here; happens with the Eye and Mouth we kill in the personal story).
It’s a poison extracted from a plant and used for magic. No magic?
Did you even read my post? That’s a unique case, and the original point you brought up was about them tormenting themselves with magic to become immune to poisons! Which is what I was saying is natural.
Why are you changing your arguments? Just to win a pointless debate?
With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer.
The nightmare is everywhere is statement which you can hear from nightmare courtiers, just like “it’s beautiful”. I don’t think that you tried to get an impression what the nightmare is. A lot of things around us are going the wrong way and we just don’t notice it, because we are all heroes and want to save the world, but we can’t do it this way (we know so little). Turning to the nightmare is just seeing the world as it works now (while even the nightmare court doesn’t know what’s really up).
And how does this relate to what we were just talking about? Again, you’re changing the argument for no apparent reason.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
They don’t have choices: Ventari (dream), shut up (soundless) or you are an enemy (nightmare). The sylvari never even try to turn a nightmare courtier back, they are lost and can be killed. The philosophy isn’t true if it’s interchangeable in it’s turnout, but everyone has to follow the layout of it.
If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous. (Pale Tree to Scarlet in the short story)
Go to the Grove. Bottom level. Outside the westernmost House PoI – there will be a sylvari who says she cannot agree with either of the three, and will forge her own path. They are not forced into the three. There are choices. The Ventari Tablet is not the same thing as the Dream, and it isn’t “follow the tenets or you’re not of the Dream” either.
Hearing Vorpp say “to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy” shows me that this concept is pretty fixed too. If the eternal alchemy is a concept then there is still room for try and error. It is more a religious science while messing around with the nature and there is inconsistency too, thinking of Zojja and her behaviour.
Well of course it’s fixed. What changes isn’t the Eternal Alchemy (what things are) but how individuals interpret it (what people think things are).
What about this sentence told from the Pale Tree?
Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.
It knows about a problem that we obviously aren’t informed about.
There’s no context for this line. Who is “us”? What are “the forces”? She could mean how magic functions. She could mean the Mists (which we know from the kodan, trying to connect the mind to the Mists can lead to insanity). She could mean a lot of things – and very few of them actually refer to some sentience controlling the Dream, which is little more than a location full of memories and magic.
Working on a dragon army. Showing us Trahearne as leader of the pact even before it’s founded. The orders are competetive towards each other, so they don’t accept any other order as leader. We belong to an order and just had the choice which one, but not like Trahearne working together without joining. Until we suggest the pact and suggest Trahearne as leader. Because we have a time shortage and have to defend LA from the dragon we put the fastest and logical decision together, but it’s guided from the Pale Tree independent from your race origin. All fine and subtle settings that guide our way without giving us another choice for it. Pressure, the whole personal story, pressure for fast decisions and low amount of options.
And? Again, feels like you’re bringing up unrelated things just to change the discussion.
I don’t believe every NPC. I try to figure out if it is true, which is a basic task to get behind the scene.
I never said you believe every NPC. I said you shouldn’t believe the risen. Certainly not at face value.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
So, it’s just another bug to put undead and risen in the same instance? I don’t think so, because most of the undead are in a separate position.
It’s not a bug. Because they’re just labeled as undead – they are still risen, and most (read: 99.9999999999% of) risen are undead, so it’s not a mislabeling. They’re just not traditional undead.
How hard is this to comprehend?
They are undead. They are risen. There is no mislabeling and they are not different. They’re just labeled differently for whatever design reason was made. This is purely game design change and is not a differentiation in lore. Just like how you have Veteran, Elite, Champion, and Legendary. Just because they’re labeled legendary doesn’t mean that there are legends about them.
The spy might really not be the best example, since we are having the first contact here for the undead orrian elder dragon which produces risen.
orrian = population of Orr (even if dead)
undead = not living but moving creatures
risen = dragon corruption (which probably doesn’t even belong to this dragon or is affected through consuption of a certain magic)
As long as you don’t see a difference between risen and common undead and orrians, the whole discussion gets pointless.
I could say the same to you.
To the standard Tyrian, to almost every Tyrian, the terms mean:
Orrian = A dragon minion from Orr or someone of human Orrian kingdom heritage
Undead = A rotten mobile corpse
Risen = A dragon minion of Zhaitan
And the three terms are often used interchangably when referring to minions of Zhaitan. Because they’re rotten mobile corpses that are dragon minions of Zhaitan which come from Orr.
Aside from necromancer-made minions (things like the Flesh Golem or Bone Fiend), there are no “common undead” in the game. And you do not seem to get this. And to use your own words: As long as you don’t see [this], the whole discussion gets pointless.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Souls, spirits and ghosts are not necessarily the same thing. A ghost is usually the soul of a dead mortal, trapped in the mortal realm. At a stretch you could call these undead. Wraiths and shades may be souls that have returned from the underworld, but I doubt all of them are.
A spirit may be used to refer to a ghost, but it could also refer to something that was never mortal in the first place. Some of them are very similar to undead, but some spirits (e.g. Ranger spirits) are nothing like the undead.
No ghost is akin to undead, as they’re all incorporeal (read: without a physical body) while undead are corporeal (read: with a physical body). Souls/Spirits/Ghosts don’t have to have had a flesh and blood body (e.g., Spirits of the Wild, forest spirits like Urgoz, sea spirits like Zhu Hanuku all seem unlikely to have had a flesh and blood body).
Typically in GW (but not always) the difference is “ghost = a wandering soul, often one unable to move on to the Mists; spirit = a soul who’s moved on to the Mists and remains there, or was called back.” And soul is just an umbrella term.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
It seems unlikely than Norn spirits (especially the more esoteric spirits, like the wurm spirit) or Ranger spirits ever had any connection to the living.
It seems unlikely than Norn spirits (especially the more esoteric spirits, like the wurm spirit) or Ranger spirits ever had any connection to the living.
I agree with you, but either way they are distinct from the undead, which is the important point.
Concerning wraiths- in both Guild Wars 1 and 2, the only parts of their “bodies” to have a distinct form appear to be physical matter, specifically a skull and skeletal hands. The “ethereal” bits are just a shapeless mass of energy contained within a robe. When contrasted with ghosts and spirits, who with the exception of shades are both fully ethereal and possess a form, I would venture that wraiths are actually corporeal undead- that is, partial skeletons twisted and reanimated and held together with general necrotic energy, unrelated to ghosts.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
Tell me, has anybody confirmed the kill (lore wise)?
Rox got his tail and said that he is dead now. I take this as confirmed.
Nothing says that “several years” takes place in Harathi Hinterlands.
Two years have passed and the war isn’t over.
The risen should reduce because that’s what we were told is happening after killing Zhaitan.
From the same NPC that we put into lead position and that defines our major tasks during the whole story. This scholar either didn’t his homework about Orr or he just guides us through another war than the one we’ve got told. The NPCs which should know truth are very rare and Trahearne should at least know about the source of Orr after 23 years of studying, but he doesn’t. Don’t take him to serious, either he knows something that causes his doubts or he misguides us on purpose.
Did you even read my post? That’s a unique case, and the original point you brought up was about them tormenting themselves with magic to become immune to poisons! Which is what I was saying is natural.
I meant that they torment themselfes with potent poison (whilst immune to common poison) to get access to magic and I understood that you are telling me that they have no magic. Agree or disagree?
With your appearance, the truth grows ever closer.
And how does this relate to what we were just talking about? Again, you’re changing the argument for no apparent reason.
Pale Tree, Orr, Trahearne …. if we talk about them, then we should take a look at the counter side to see what’s up with them. You said the nightmare court want to drive all into nightmare. I say the nightmare is everywhere. You said they want to corrupt more Pale Trees. I say the knows Pale Tree is not natural and needs to be freed from Ventari’s tablet and this is what the nightmare court wants to do. No need for corrupting, because they want to purify the known one (and I understood that you won’t see the problem there).
Go to the Grove. Bottom level. Outside the westernmost House PoI – there will be a sylvari who says she cannot agree with either of the three, and will forge her own path. They are not forced into the three. There are choices. The Ventari Tablet is not the same thing as the Dream, and it isn’t “follow the tenets or you’re not of the Dream” either.
Then she has a problem, because the Dream will never let her go, except she decides to cut it off and become soundless. The Pale Tree will ever be with her if she wants or not, the nightmare court has the same problem. She has no choice, even if she thinks so.
Well of course it’s fixed. What changes isn’t the Eternal Alchemy (what things are) but how individuals interpret it (what people think things are).
In the common world you have multiple choices to aquire something you want. There are several mechanics or methods that you can use, not only one. The turnout might be different and there is the point. If the eternal alchemy fixes something, because it’s the way, then it is a way towards a planned future. If it is just a giant mechanical concept then it has an intended use and the Asura are working towards it.
I don’t believe every NPC. I try to figure out if it is true, which is a basic task to get behind the scene.
I never said you believe every NPC. I said you shouldn’t believe the risen. Certainly not at face value.
If my allies don’t tell enough to get the story then I have to look what my enemy tells and check how much truth is in his words.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Because they’re just labeled as undead – they are still risen, and most (read: 99.9999999999% of) risen are undead, so it’s not a mislabeling. They’re just not traditional undead.
How hard is this to comprehend?
They are undead. They are risen. There is no mislabeling and they are not different. They’re just labeled differently for whatever design reason was made. This is purely game design change and is not a differentiation in lore. Just like how you have Veteran, Elite, Champion, and Legendary. Just because they’re labeled legendary doesn’t mean that there are legends about them.
They are different and that’s the mistake. This is the way racism and other unlikely behaviour works, put all under one hat, while they are different. They are risen or undead and I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart. Everytime an event with risen starts and the NPCs are shouting that the undead are coming, they are wrong, because they are risen. It’s a fine line, but it’s important.
back to topic
The artesian waters are known as the gate to the mists where the gods came to Tyria. While not knowing if all six came from there, at least Dwayna is listed ingame as coming from the mists. If Zhaitan has corrupted the artesian waters, he may have access to the mists or the corruption could go through the gate into the mists. I think this is a problem. Maybe he had already gone through this gate and entered the mists. That is all speculation, but the statement of the risen priestess gets more validation if he really corrupted the artesian waters. (And Trahearne should know about them, studying the nation of gods for 23 years.)
Lyssa (one of both) liked to hide in Orr, close to the village Wren. What if either Lyss or Ilya were already in Orr (underwater) while Zhaitan woke. He would have had his meal right to his feets.
It is hard to compare dragon power with godly power, but the undead orrian elder dragon obviously produces risen instead of using undead. Taking me back to the question could he really have consumed Lyssa (maybe not both, but the preistess states that he ate our gods only naming Lyssa)?
addendum
ANet has content planned for several years. I omitted some posts for the simple reason that I have to explain things that I won’t explain at the moment. I want to focus that I found ingame, but it isn’t this simple, because we have a giant jigsaw here trying to hide a story in front of our eyes and pulling us into a war that we won’t fight. It’s hard sensitize people about real problems with our allies, while they are still thinking that Jennah is an illusion. The next city will fall and the next and the next and we will just focus on our villains without even realizing that there are problems caused from our allies.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Tell me, has anybody confirmed the kill (lore wise)?
Rox got his tail and said that he is dead now. I take this as confirmed.
And yet we blasted Tequatl many times with the megalaser before (which is canon), and he lived and returned.
Just like plaguebringer, With the dragon champions (especially Risen, which are supposedly very tough to kill), I’d rather see hard confirmation then Rox who took a piece of his tail and left, and didn’t stick around to see if he came back out or not.
Hard confirmation being “We’ve seen his corpse laying there on the ocean floor.”
Narru explicitly states Tequatl repeatedly emerged from the water, each time growing stronger.
“I take it you are here as part of Operation Screaming Sky. Excellent, I’m Warmaster Narru, commanding officer. Mark my words, Zhaitan’s champion will not outfox us here.”
“Vigil tacticians have noticed that Tequatl has been improving its battle strategies with every emergence. We’re here to see if there’s any truth to that analysis.”
“If it is adapting, we’ll face a smarter, deadlier foe every time it emerges. What we determine here will chart the course of future dragon-lieutenant conflicts.”
“Infantry, support golems, technicians. The only non-regulation item is the megalaser cannon. It should put a hole in Tequatl, assuming we can properly deploy it.”
“Some asura have been testing this laster against Tequatl for a while. We’ve made a generous offer for the weapon. Now, we’re amplifying its power for the operation.”
Unlike other dragon champs, or world bosses, Tequatl explicitly is noted to emerge repeatedly. He’s been blasted by the megalaser many times, yet is still around.
About the gods, Jeff said in an interview that the gods are in the mists. So none got eaten by Zhaitan. They’ve been in the mists for a long while now.
Nothing says that “several years” takes place in Harathi Hinterlands.
Two years have passed and the war isn’t over.
…. This is the discussion on this topic:
“Zones are stuck in time unless affected by the Living World”
“But Harathi Hinterlands has been in war for two years!”
…
Harathi Hinterlands is stuck in time because no Living World has progressed that storyline. We don’t really know the state of the human-centaur war, especially where the battles are now taking place – it seems unlikely that humans are being pushed back in Gendarran, Queensdale, and Kessex while at the same time humans are pushing back centaurs in Harathi Hinterlands.
From the same NPC that we put into lead position and that defines our major tasks during the whole story. This scholar either didn’t his homework about Orr or he just guides us through another war than the one we’ve got told. The NPCs which should know truth are very rare and Trahearne should at least know about the source of Orr after 23 years of studying, but he doesn’t. Don’t take him to serious, either he knows something that causes his doubts or he misguides us on purpose.
You say this as if someone who’s studied the Pyramids after 23 years should know why the Egyptians built them in that shape.
But that and this are different. Him not knowing about something that has no recorded history about it and him knowing the state of the risen after Zhaitan’s defeat are two separate matters.
I meant that they torment themselfes with potent poison (whilst immune to common poison) to get access to magic and I understood that you are telling me that they have no magic. Agree or disagree?
I never said they have no magic. I said that there is no magic involved with their natural immunity, which is what you were originally claiming with your self-inflicting-torment comment (which is false – they do not torment themselves with potent poisons).
Pale Tree, Orr, Trahearne …. if we talk about them, then we should take a look at the counter side to see what’s up with them. You said the nightmare court want to drive all into nightmare. I say the nightmare is everywhere. You said they want to corrupt more Pale Trees. I say the knows Pale Tree is not natural and needs to be freed from Ventari’s tablet and this is what the nightmare court wants to do. No need for corrupting, because they want to purify the known one (and I understood that you won’t see the problem there).
If you did any of the sylvari personal storylines, you’d know that there is a fine difference between their original/proclaimed goal (“free the sylvari from the Ventari Tablet”) and their actual goal (sending all sylvari into nightmare). In Shield of the Moon storyline, if you decide to defend Astorea instead of goign with Tiachern, he falls into nightmare and his personality completely changes, and such is irreversible. Malyck, whom is not affected by either Nightmare nor Dream, acts very differently than the Nightmare Court – so we know that the NC are not “true sylvari”. They outright state they would corrupt other pale trees. They outright state they intend to plunge the full race into nightmare. The Nightmare is not everywhere, otherwise you’d be having “bathe in the blood of the fallen! burn them alive and dance on their corpses!” (basically, the standard newbie roleplayers take on necromancers in most MMOs) will be commonplace, as that is what the Nightmare turns people into.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Then she has a problem, because the Dream will never let her go, except she decides to cut it off and become soundless. The Pale Tree will ever be with her if she wants or not, the nightmare court has the same problem. She has no choice, even if she thinks so.
Dream != Ventari teachings
Do you not read?
You combine the two, my point in bringing her up is that they are not the same. She doesn’t reject the Dream (unlike Nightmare Courtiers), but she does reject the Ventari Tablet – and she rejects the nightmare.
In the common world you have multiple choices to aquire something you want. There are several mechanics or methods that you can use, not only one. The turnout might be different and there is the point. If the eternal alchemy fixes something, because it’s the way, then it is a way towards a planned future. If it is just a giant mechanical concept then it has an intended use and the Asura are working towards it.
“Means of acquiring something” isn’t what the Eternal Alchemy is. It is how things work together, not how they will act nor their future.
If my allies don’t tell enough to get the story then I have to look what my enemy tells and check how much truth is in his words.
The risen will only tell you what they want you to believe is the truth.
They are different and that’s the mistake. This is the way racism and other unlikely behaviour works, put all under one hat, while they are different. They are risen or undead and I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart. Everytime an event with risen starts and the NPCs are shouting that the undead are coming, they are wrong, because they are risen. It’s a fine line, but it’s important.
My point, however, is that those NPCs that are labeled “Undead Abomination” etc. are all risen. There is no case of “there are undead mixed in with the risen” – its just risen being called undead.
To put home the point: non-champion dragon minions attack anything that isn’t connected to their hive mind mentality. Even with many Sons of Svanir, the icebrood will attack them.
So if you have something that doesn’t outright look risen, walking amongst risen and not being attacked… it is corrupted by Zhaitan, thus is a risen.
The artesian waters are known as the gate to the mists where the gods came to Tyria. While not knowing if all six came from there, at least Dwayna is listed ingame as coming from the mists. If Zhaitan has corrupted the artesian waters, he may have access to the mists or the corruption could go through the gate into the mists. I think this is a problem. Maybe he had already gone through this gate and entered the mists. That is all speculation, but the statement of the risen priestess gets more validation if he really corrupted the artesian waters. (And Trahearne should know about them, studying the nation of gods for 23 years.)
They are not a gate. They are a spring (an underwater cave system) which happens to gather a lot of magic, and is where the Six Gods first stepped foot on the world – a gate opened at the Artesian Waters, the Artesian Waters are not a gate.
Melandru and Balthazar are also stated to come from the Mists, not just Dwayna. With heavy implications of Abaddon (“Only you remember what happened in the Mists.” – description of Abaddon from Orrian History Scrolls)
Lyssa (one of both) liked to hide in Orr, close to the village Wren. What if either Lyss or Ilya were already in Orr (underwater) while Zhaitan woke. He would have had his meal right to his feets.
Nope. All gods left the world of Tyria physically during Year 0 (aka 0 AE), over 1,000 years before Zhaitan awoke. The comment about Lyssa hiding in Wren takes place around 45 BE, when her scriptures’ event took place (meeting and blessing Sara), and likely beforehand.
It is hard to compare dragon power with godly power, but the undead orrian elder dragon obviously produces risen instead of using undead. Taking me back to the question could he really have consumed Lyssa (maybe not both, but the preistess states that he ate our gods only naming Lyssa)?
Can you eat a turkey that’s being cooked halfway across the globe?
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
And yet we blasted Tequatl many times with the megalaser before (which is canon), and he lived and returned.
The whole event has changed with the update. Before Tequatl update he fled after being defeated. After Tequatl update he dies at the end of the event. This is an important difference. If you don’t believe me, then check how Shatterer dies at the end of the event (he doesn’t). If we can take this as a real confirmation in addition with Rox’s statement, he is possibly dead now. I looked the end of the event up again and there is still the possibility that he rises over and over again.
About the gods, Jeff said in an interview that the gods are in the mists. So none got eaten by Zhaitan. They’ve been in the mists for a long while now.
We know that Jormag tried to enter the mists of the spirits. With a place that is connected to the mists close to Zhaitan, it is possible that he tried to enter the mists too. Further are the gods missing (at least it is stated often enough in this Forum).
Additional evidence are the temples, because they are connected to the godly power, either from the mists or to the god himself. We seal the magic in the temples back. All evidence that Zhaitan either corrupted the mists or consumed (a part of) the gods. Another reason that not only the sealing of the artesian waters is needed to lower the risen corruption of Orr, the interruption of the temples is also needed.
“Zones are stuck in time unless affected by the Living World”
The big feature update changed a lot balance in the world. I think we can assume all maps are up to date at the moment.
Harathi Hinterlands is stuck in time because no Living World has progressed that storyline. We don’t really know the state of the human-centaur war, especially where the battles are now taking place – it seems unlikely that humans are being pushed back in Gendarran, Queensdale, and Kessex while at the same time humans are pushing back centaurs in Harathi Hinterlands.
If I use level as an additional time indicator, then is Harathi after Gendarran after Kessex after Queensdale. And all belong to the same war, so it could be that we even haven’t entered Harathi Hinterlands with our forces, but we are on the way. There is a reason why all is repeating endless, so it could be this one too, but Ulgoth dies at the end and he doesn’t have obvious signs that he revives over and over again.
But that and this are different. Him not knowing about something that has no recorded history about it and him knowing the state of the risen after Zhaitan’s defeat are two separate matters.
He can replay orrian culture with his magic. We see it through the personal story. And there are recordings. If he knows nothing about orrian culture, then he has basically the equal amount of informations or even less about risen. The recordings of the dragon are by far older than the recordings of the gods. Even if the dragon is active, while the gods aren’t, we still know nothing for sure about risen, because we have recordings about an elder undead orrian dragon.
If you did any of the sylvari personal storylines, you’d know that there is a fine difference between their original/proclaimed goal (“free the sylvari from the Ventari Tablet”) and their actual goal (sending all sylvari into nightmare).
There is no difference between these goals. The only failure about that is that the nightmare court is well seemingly blinded too, thinking that the nightmare is a desirable state.
In Shield of the Moon storyline, if you decide to defend Astorea instead of goign with Tiachern, he falls into nightmare and his personality completely changes, and such is irreversible.
It is irreversible, but have you ever asked yourself why? What if the nightmare is not the desirable state of the world, but the truth that we are living in?
Malyck, whom is not affected by either Nightmare nor Dream, acts very differently than the Nightmare Court – so we know that the NC are not “true sylvari”.
They outright state they would corrupt other pale trees.
Malyck is a trap. And like stated before, the nightmare court is still connected to the Pale Tree while Malyck isn’t. Showing that the nightmare court are no free sylvari, influenced at any time from the Pale Tree. Malyck is also far away from calling him a true sylvari. The only information that we get from him is that there is/was another Pale Tree and the physical appearance is comparable.
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
Dream != Ventari teachings
Do you not read?
You combine the two, my point in bringing her up is that they are not the same. She doesn’t reject the Dream (unlike Nightmare Courtiers), but she does reject the Ventari Tablet – and she rejects the nightmare.
She will never be disconnected from the Pale Tree, never be disconnected from the dream, never be disconnected from Ventari’s teachings (and his tablet). All of them are connected, you cannot choose to omit one and stay with the other.
“Means of acquiring something” isn’t what the Eternal Alchemy is. It is how things work together, not how they will act nor their future.
If the eternal alchmy excludes a way to go then there is an intention behind. As a concept it would basically been used to explain the world and how it works, but not forbid actions or predetermine any way. The only thing that the eternal alchemy usually would support are changes and explanations how it affects the world. Macha says the sprocket could be replaced, but they are still missing. In an concept the sprocket doesn’t need to be replaced, just the result would change without the sprocket.
The risen will only tell you what they want you to believe is the truth.
And red haired are witches which worship satan. Nobody tells the full truth, neither does our enemy nor do our allies. So I have to search. I adjust your sentence to: “The Pale Tree will only tell you what it want you to believe is the truth.”, because if the one side has this flaw, then I have to check if the other side has this flaw too. Real wars use truth and lie on both sides, just to give their people enough reasons to fight blindly and many other reasons. I wouldn’t have started this post if I had the opinion that this one is lying. I am searching for evidence that it is lying, but simply saying don’t trust a risen doesn’t help to tell truth and lie apart. Furthermore are a lot possibilities given to demotivate people, so why did it choose the gods as topic, especially if we have 4 playable races who don’t worship the six?
My point, however, is that those NPCs that are labeled “Undead Abomination” etc. are all risen. There is no case of “there are undead mixed in with the risen”
- its just risen being called undead.
I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart.
To put home the point: non-champion dragon minions attack anything that isn’t connected to their hive mind mentality. Even with many Sons of Svanir, the icebrood will attack them.
So if you have something that doesn’t outright look risen, walking amongst risen and not being attacked… it is corrupted by Zhaitan, thus is a risen.
The sparks at the statues of Dwayna don’t automatically attack the risen there if the temple is cleaned. Does it turn sparks into risen? The cleaned Lyssa statues has several elementals around it which also do not attack risen. Does it turn earth-, fire and iceelementals into risen? That they automatically don’t attack each other, doesn’t mean they are of the same kind, the ones are risen and the other are undead.
They are not a gate. They are a spring (an underwater cave system) which happens to gather a lot of magic, and is where the Six Gods first stepped foot on the world – a gate opened at the Artesian Waters, the Artesian Waters are not a gate.
It’s a physical place which was connected to the mists. Why should this connection go away, when it is listed as the first place where the gods came to Tyria.
Nope. All gods left the world of Tyria physically during Year 0 (aka 0 AE), over 1,000 years before Zhaitan awoke. The comment about Lyssa hiding in Wren takes place around 45 BE, when her scriptures’ event took place (meeting and blessing Sara), and likely beforehand.
There are 1300 years in between and Orr was 200 years underwater. We cannot say for sure that the gods stayed there and if one of them liked to wander around in Orr, he could do it without meeting any living human around.
Can you eat a turkey that’s being cooked halfway across the globe?
If I made my mouth a separate creature, yes
Slow clap for the great puppet player.
And yet we blasted Tequatl many times with the megalaser before (which is canon), and he lived and returned.
The whole event has changed with the update. Before Tequatl update he fled after being defeated. After Tequatl update he dies at the end of the event. This is an important difference. If you don’t believe me, then check how Shatterer dies at the end of the event (he doesn’t). If we can take this as a real confirmation in addition with Rox’s statement, he is possibly dead now. I looked the end of the event up again and there is still the possibility that he rises over and over again.
Check your facts. Shatterer dies after a successful event, he flies north and explodes. Each Shatterer is a new dragon champion.
About the gods, Jeff said in an interview that the gods are in the mists. So none got eaten by Zhaitan. They’ve been in the mists for a long while now.
We know that Jormag tried to enter the mists of the spirits. With a place that is connected to the mists close to Zhaitan, it is possible that he tried to enter the mists too. Further are the gods missing (at least it is stated often enough in this Forum).
There are no implications of a strong connection to the mists at Artesian Waters. The gods can open portals to their realms seemingly wherever they want to.
“Zones are stuck in time unless affected by the Living World”
The big feature update changed a lot balance in the world. I think we can assume all maps are up to date at the moment.
The feature pack had nothing lore related in it, sans the not-so-serious reasoning for removing repair costs.
Harathi Hinterlands is stuck in time because no Living World has progressed that storyline. We don’t really know the state of the human-centaur war, especially where the battles are now taking place – it seems unlikely that humans are being pushed back in Gendarran, Queensdale, and Kessex while at the same time humans are pushing back centaurs in Harathi Hinterlands.
If I use level as an additional time indicator, then is Harathi after Gendarran after Kessex after Queensdale. And all belong to the same war, so it could be that we even haven’t entered Harathi Hinterlands with our forces, but we are on the way. There is a reason why all is repeating endless, so it could be this one too, but Ulgoth dies at the end and he doesn’t have obvious signs that he revives over and over again.
Your logic is flawed. Continue that thought and place the events in level order. Whoops, Zhaitan dies at level 80, now we know that Ulgoth dies before that, so it’s not in the future. And you are just violently agreeing with Konig there about the zone being locked in time…
But that and this are different. Him not knowing about something that has no recorded history about it and him knowing the state of the risen after Zhaitan’s defeat are two separate matters.
He can replay orrian culture with his magic. We see it through the personal story. And there are recordings. If he knows nothing about orrian culture, then he has basically the equal amount of informations or even less about risen. The recordings of the dragon are by far older than the recordings of the gods. Even if the dragon is active, while the gods aren’t, we still know nothing for sure about risen, because we have recordings about an elder undead orrian dragon.
The source of Orr isn’t Orrian culture and isn’t something there would be records for. Trahearne studied Orr and the risen, he’s the foremost expert on their workings. Forgive me, but I don’t see you making much sense.
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
Additional evidence are the temples, because they are connected to the godly power, either from the mists or to the god himself. We seal the magic in the temples back. All evidence that Zhaitan either corrupted the mists or consumed (a part of) the gods. Another reason that not only the sealing of the artesian waters is needed to lower the risen corruption of Orr, the interruption of the temples is also needed.
We don’t “seal the magic in the temples back,” we are protecting it from Zhaitan. If taking it back from Risen forces and defending it from them isn’t enough, here’s the text it gives when you defeat the priest: “The Risen Priest of Balthazar has been defeated! The flow of corruption to the statues of Balthazar has been disabled. The Pact holds the Temple of Balthazar but remains alert.” You are protecting the temples from corruption.
The big feature update changed a lot balance in the world. I think we can assume all maps are up to date at the moment.
It did change a lot of the balance, but I don’t think they changed much of the story/events in most zones as that’s a lot more work. Most of the maps are probably not up to date. This is just a weakness in MMOs in general.
There is no difference between these goals. The only failure about that is that the nightmare court is well seemingly blinded too, thinking that the nightmare is a desirable state.
There is a significant difference between those goals. Freeing the Sylvari from the Ventari Tablet would make them more like Malyck or some of the other Sylvari who tread their own path (Ceara, in her years of exploration and learning from the other races before she became Scarlet). The nightmare, interestingly, is a way for the Nightmare Court to directly oppose the Ventari Tablet’s teachings and change the Pale Tree and is therefore just as tied to the Tablet as someone who follows its teachings.
Malyck is a trap.
You just state that Malyck is a trap, but have nothing supporting the assertion. What makes you so sure Malyck is a trap?
If you did any of the sylvari personal storylines, you’d know that there is a fine difference between their original/proclaimed goal (“free the sylvari from the Ventari Tablet”) and their actual goal (sending all sylvari into nightmare).
There is no difference between these goals. The only failure about that is that the nightmare court is well seemingly blinded too, thinking that the nightmare is a desirable state.
You clearly do not know enough about the information regarding the nightmare to make theories of it. Nightmare isn’t a view or philosophy, it is a thing, something Faolain and Caithe found, and it changed the Nightmare Court. Why do you think the founder of the Court is a subordinate to Faolain?
In Shield of the Moon storyline, if you decide to defend Astorea instead of goign with Tiachern, he falls into nightmare and his personality completely changes, and such is irreversible.
It is irreversible, but have you ever asked yourself why? What if the nightmare is not the desirable state of the world, but the truth that we are living in?
See above.
Malyck, whom is not affected by either Nightmare nor Dream, acts very differently than the Nightmare Court – so we know that the NC are not “true sylvari”.
They outright state they would corrupt other pale trees.
Malyck is a trap. And like stated before, the nightmare court is still connected to the Pale Tree while Malyck isn’t. Showing that the nightmare court are no free sylvari, influenced at any time from the Pale Tree. Malyck is also far away from calling him a true sylvari. The only information that we get from him is that there is/was another Pale Tree and the physical appearance is comparable.
The Nightmare Court wants to corrupt the pale tree, but the teachings of Ventari make it difficult. If the existence of other such trees were to be known to Nightmare Court, they would seek to corrupt them, as it would be easier.
Dream != Ventari teachings
Do you not read?
You combine the two, my point in bringing her up is that they are not the same. She doesn’t reject the Dream (unlike Nightmare Courtiers), but she does reject the Ventari Tablet – and she rejects the nightmare.
She will never be disconnected from the Pale Tree, never be disconnected from the dream, never be disconnected from Ventari’s teachings (and his tablet). All of them are connected, you cannot choose to omit one and stay with the other.
Sylvari have full freedom of choice. Canach, for an example, was neither Nightmare Court or Soundless, yet hardly acted on Pale Tree’s behalf.
“Means of acquiring something” isn’t what the Eternal Alchemy is. It is how things work together, not how they will act nor their future.
If the eternal alchmy excludes a way to go then there is an intention behind. As a concept it would basically been used to explain the world and how it works, but not forbid actions or predetermine any way. The only thing that the eternal alchemy usually would support are changes and explanations how it affects the world. Macha says the sprocket could be replaced, but they are still missing. In an concept the sprocket doesn’t need to be replaced, just the result would change without the sprocket.
But the Eternal Alchemy doesn’t forbid actions or predetermine any way. It is the philosophical view of seeing everything as connected, the causal relationships between the entities and forces of the world.
The risen will only tell you what they want you to believe is the truth.
And red haired are witches which worship satan. Nobody tells the full truth, neither does our enemy nor do our allies. So I have to search. I adjust your sentence to: “The Pale Tree will only tell you what it want you to believe is the truth.”, because if the one side has this flaw, then I have to check if the other side has this flaw too. Real wars use truth and lie on both sides, just to give their people enough reasons to fight blindly and many other reasons. I wouldn’t have started this post if I had the opinion that this one is lying. I am searching for evidence that it is lying, but simply saying don’t trust a risen doesn’t help to tell truth and lie apart. Furthermore are a lot possibilities given to demotivate people, so why did it choose the gods as topic, especially if we have 4 playable races who don’t worship the six?
So… you use the argument that lies are used to motivate troops and demoralize the opposition… to reason that the risen are trustworthy? You are not making a lot of sense. And you are speaking of human priests and priestesses, how is it strange that they would talk about their own gods?
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
My point, however, is that those NPCs that are labeled “Undead Abomination” etc. are all risen. There is no case of “there are undead mixed in with the risen”
- its just risen being called undead.
I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart.
If you have a valid reason to believe it, why not present it? Telling you have your reasons is no argument at all and contributes nothing to the discussion.
To put home the point: non-champion dragon minions attack anything that isn’t connected to their hive mind mentality. Even with many Sons of Svanir, the icebrood will attack them.
So if you have something that doesn’t outright look risen, walking amongst risen and not being attacked… it is corrupted by Zhaitan, thus is a risen.
The sparks at the statues of Dwayna don’t automatically attack the risen there if the temple is cleaned. Does it turn sparks into risen? The cleaned Lyssa statues has several elementals around it which also do not attack risen. Does it turn earth-, fire and iceelementals into risen? That they automatically don’t attack each other, doesn’t mean they are of the same kind, the ones are risen and the other are undead.
Elementals can be corrupted by the Elder Dragons, see Icebrood Elementals and Branded Earth Elementals. The sparks could be corrupted, or the risen might not recognize them as alive beings. Afterall, they are pretty much just balls of electricity.
They are not a gate. They are a spring (an underwater cave system) which happens to gather a lot of magic, and is where the Six Gods first stepped foot on the world – a gate opened at the Artesian Waters, the Artesian Waters are not a gate.
It’s a physical place which was connected to the mists. Why should this connection go away, when it is listed as the first place where the gods came to Tyria.
How about Lion’s Arch, then? Balthazar opened a mist portal there after the Battle Isles sunk. Again, the gods can open portals seemingly anywhere they wish. As seen from Godslost Swamp and Grenth’s former temple in Shiverpeaks, effects may linger and new portals may tear open, but always to Tyria from the Mists, not the other way around. And even though the gods stepped on Tyria at the Artesian Waters, it doesn’t mean that the place had a particularly strong connection, nor that the portal lasted for a long enough time to create a powerful link.
Nope. All gods left the world of Tyria physically during Year 0 (aka 0 AE), over 1,000 years before Zhaitan awoke. The comment about Lyssa hiding in Wren takes place around 45 BE, when her scriptures’ event took place (meeting and blessing Sara), and likely beforehand.
There are 1300 years in between and Orr was 200 years underwater. We cannot say for sure that the gods stayed there and if one of them liked to wander around in Orr, he could do it without meeting any living human around.
We also cannot say for sure that all of those Santa Clauses you see around holiday season are just acting the part, but it’s fair to assume that there is no real Santa amongst them. It’s a poor theory to suggest something happened when all present information suggests otherwise.
EDIT: fixed link
EDIT2: fixed more broken stuff…
Only fools and heroes charge in without a plan.
(edited by Tuomir.1830)
Ventari’s tablets are merely teachings. They can be in the dream but not follow the teachings above all else. Even then, the teachings basically end up as being decent, kind people…
And yet we blasted Tequatl many times with the megalaser before (which is canon), and he lived and returned.
The whole event has changed with the update. Before Tequatl update he fled after being defeated. After Tequatl update he dies at the end of the event. This is an important difference. If you don’t believe me, then check how Shatterer dies at the end of the event (he doesn’t). If we can take this as a real confirmation in addition with Rox’s statement, he is possibly dead now. I looked the end of the event up again and there is still the possibility that he rises over and over again.
The Shatterer explodes. Tequatl’s defeat animation however, is exactly the same besides a small piece of his tail flying off and landing on the ground.
The big feature update changed a lot balance in the world. I think we can assume all maps are up to date at the moment.
Hatrdly. You’re taking what was stated to be an update without a story as a continuation of lore. You’re mixing pure mechanics for lore.
If I use level as an additional time indicator, then is Harathi after Gendarran after Kessex after Queensdale. And all belong to the same war, so it could be that we even haven’t entered Harathi Hinterlands with our forces, but we are on the way. There is a reason why all is repeating endless, so it could be this one too, but Ulgoth dies at the end and he doesn’t have obvious signs that he revives over and over again.
But you’re claiming that Harathi is happening presently still, that the war is ongoing in Harathi. That would mean Queensdale, Kessex, and Gendarran are too.
You’re arguing both sides of the coin, in the very same post. Pick one.
He can replay orrian culture with his magic. We see it through the personal story. And there are recordings. If he knows nothing about orrian culture, then he has basically the equal amount of informations or even less about risen. The recordings of the dragon are by far older than the recordings of the gods. Even if the dragon is active, while the gods aren’t, we still know nothing for sure about risen, because we have recordings about an elder undead orrian dragon.
Whomever said he knew nothing of Orrian culture? And what he does isn’t replay Orrian culture, but specific scenes – and he has to be at the location of it. He cannot replay all of history all over Orr just to learn about something so unknown. He has to know what he’s looking for.
He knows a lot about risen by studying them in the now, so of course he doesn’t know risen history – not that they even have a culture to study. But where did this come from anyways? Once more, you’re bringing up things irrelevant and changing the discussion.
There is no difference between these goals. The only failure about that is that the nightmare court is well seemingly blinded too, thinking that the nightmare is a desirable state.
Of course there’s a difference in the goals. Freeing from the Ventari Tablet doesn’t result in falling to Nightmare in of itself. Otherwise, all the pirates out there would have fallen to Nightmare.
It is irreversible, but have you ever asked yourself why? What if the nightmare is not the desirable state of the world, but the truth that we are living in?
I fail to see how you can come to such a conclusion. As I said, if it were the “truth that we are living in” then everyone would be like that, not just the Nightmare Court (which, I will mention, has been stated to be about 10-15% of the sylvari population).
Malyck is a trap. And like stated before, the nightmare court is still connected to the Pale Tree while Malyck isn’t. Showing that the nightmare court are no free sylvari, influenced at any time from the Pale Tree. Malyck is also far away from calling him a true sylvari. The only information that we get from him is that there is/was another Pale Tree and the physical appearance is comparable.
And that he’s not influenced by the Ventari Tablet, or the Dream, or the Nightmare. That’s what makes him closest to a “true sylvari.”
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
She will never be disconnected from the Pale Tree, never be disconnected from the dream, never be disconnected from Ventari’s teachings (and his tablet). All of them are connected, you cannot choose to omit one and stay with the other.
Actually, you can. Take the sylvari pirates – they’ve obviously rejected the tablet and Ventari’s teachings, but they’re not of the Nightmare by all indications.
Ventari Tablet != Dream of Dreams. They are separate. One is a philosophy (the tablet), while the other is a metaphysical biological/magical connection the children of the Pale Tree hold.
I am searching for evidence that it is lying, but simply saying don’t trust a risen doesn’t help to tell truth and lie apart.
We gave you evidence. The Six Gods left the world completely a full millenium before Zhaitan rose. And there’s no means of Zhaitan accessing the Mists.
Furthermore are a lot possibilities given to demotivate people, so why did it choose the gods as topic, especially if we have 4 playable races who don’t worship the six?
Because it’s a priest, and though the other races don’t worship the gods, except for the sylvari they all believe they exist and they’re powerful – norn view them on par to their Spirits of the Wild. But the priestess may not know this anyways, but she came from Orr whom view the gods higher than any other.
I have my reasons to insist to tell both apart.
Then do share! Because all you’ve been saying is “they’re different! they’re different!” when in fact, they’re not.
The sparks at the statues of Dwayna don’t automatically attack the risen there if the temple is cleaned. Does it turn sparks into risen? The cleaned Lyssa statues has several elementals around it which also do not attack risen. Does it turn earth-, fire and iceelementals into risen? That they automatically don’t attack each other, doesn’t mean they are of the same kind, the ones are risen and the other are undead.
A lot of elementals and oozes do not attack risen – this is likely due to how they function on a whole. Elementals are formed from magic, so it wouldn’t be odd to see that they’ve been corrupted either. Oozes take in the capabilities of those they digest, so if they digest risen it would be odd for them to not end up being corrupted. Though that’s speculative, but the point remains that anything not of the dragon’s minion will be attacked because anything not of the hive mind is perceived an enemy. This is a fact stated by Jeff Grubb and in Edge of Destiny. The fact they don’t attack elementals and oozes is interesting, but the fact remains.
But the so-called “undead” are risen. There’s no difference.
It’s a physical place which was connected to the mists. Why should this connection go away, when it is listed as the first place where the gods came to Tyria.
Because the gods only arrived there because they sensed powerful magic. The portal was removed, it doesn’t exist any more. It’s just a place of powerful magic.
There are 1300 years in between and Orr was 200 years underwater. We cannot say for sure that the gods stayed there and if one of them liked to wander around in Orr, he could do it without meeting any living human around.
It is a FACT stated by the developers that the Six Gods left the world in Year 0. You’re arguing against the developers themselves.
Can you eat a turkey that’s being cooked halfway across the globe?
If I made my mouth a separate creature, yes
Not if that separate creature could never reach the turkey. Zhaitan lacks access to the Mists.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
She will never be disconnected from the Pale Tree, never be disconnected from the dream, never be disconnected from Ventari’s teachings (and his tablet). All of them are connected, you cannot choose to omit one and stay with the other.
Actually, you can. Take the sylvari pirates – they’ve obviously rejected the tablet and Ventari’s teachings, but they’re not of the Nightmare by all indications.
Ventari Tablet != Dream of Dreams. They are separate. One is a philosophy (the tablet), while the other is a metaphysical biological/magical connection the children of the Pale Tree hold.
Indeed. I once viewed pirate sylvari as ones who may have left nightmare court/wasn’t fully turned, but that might not hold true anymore.
They could be soundless, or connected to the dream, but they still are acting outside the “ONLY HAVE THREE CHOICES” thing.
Furthermore are a lot possibilities given to demotivate people, so why did it choose the gods as topic, especially if we have 4 playable races who don’t worship the six?
Because it’s a priest, and though the other races don’t worship the gods, except for the sylvari they all believe they exist and they’re powerful – norn view them on par to their Spirits of the Wild. But the priestess may not know this anyways, but she came from Orr whom view the gods higher than any other.
High priests of Orr wouldn’t know about the Norn, Sylvari, or Asura. Either way, it’s likely to be part of how Zhaitan controls them/their soul (Since the priest in the story instance is stated to have his soul). Zhaitan couldn’t just have their soul follow him willingly, so he plants the idea that he consumed the gods in order to make the priests soul twist and bend to his will.
Purely theory though.
The sparks at the statues of Dwayna don’t automatically attack the risen there if the temple is cleaned. Does it turn sparks into risen? The cleaned Lyssa statues has several elementals around it which also do not attack risen. Does it turn earth-, fire and iceelementals into risen? That they automatically don’t attack each other, doesn’t mean they are of the same kind, the ones are risen and the other are undead.
A lot of elementals and oozes do not attack risen – this is likely due to how they function on a whole. Elementals are formed from magic, so it wouldn’t be odd to see that they’ve been corrupted either. Oozes take in the capabilities of those they digest, so if they digest risen it would be odd for them to not end up being corrupted. Though that’s speculative, but the point remains that anything not of the dragon’s minion will be attacked because anything not of the hive mind is perceived an enemy. This is a fact stated by Jeff Grubb and in Edge of Destiny. The fact they don’t attack elementals and oozes is interesting, but the fact remains.
But the so-called “undead” are risen. There’s no difference.
Hell…
“Icebrood elementals” and “branded sparks.”
It would not be a stretch at all to say there are “risen” corrupted elementals. Destroyers would be the stretch, but that’d only be for ice elementals or air. They could easily corrupt earth or fire ones :P.
edit: Meaning obviously Jormag wouldn’t corrupt fire elementals, and Primordus Ice ones. But the fact remains we’ve seen elementals explicitly corrupted by dragons.
Indeed. I once viewed pirate sylvari as ones who may have left nightmare court/wasn’t fully turned, but that might not hold true anymore.
They could be soundless, or connected to the dream, but they still are acting outside the “ONLY HAVE THREE CHOICES” thing.
It seems to be a common misconception of players to think that “Dream = Good; Nightmare = Evil” – it isn’t so black and white, actually.
While most Nightmare Courtiers that are spotlighted are of the “I will rend the flesh from your bones and drink the blood of innocents mwuahahaha!” such as twisted Tiachern, Sariel, and the three TA exp guys, there are those like Gavin and Ysvelta which hold up honor and pride, love and duty (respectively) above the acts of cruelty. To these, the Nightmare is a means to an end, rather than the end itself like it is for the… eccentric ones.
Similarly, being of the Dream doesn’t demand you follow Ventari’s Tablet nor does it demand that you act good in all you do. Aside from the pirates, we got Dream sylvari like Canach, Caithe, Gairwen, and, dare I mention it, Scarlet whom are more selfish, immensely vengeful to the point of 0 mercy, and outright assaulting both sides (again, respectively).
There’s more than three sides of “Ventari, Nightmare, or None.” If I must say anything, those four sylvari I mentioned in the latter are probably closer to “true sylvari” since they aren’t too dissimilar from how Malyck acts (trusts those who show trustworthiness, hate those who harm others, and to use his words “those who show no mercy deserve none.”)
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Arguably there are very few Sylvari who follow the tablet fully. The Sylvari pirates are obvious example of Sylvari who ignore the tablet, but realistically you’d have to be a pacifist monk that eats only sunlight to follow the teachings to the letter.
How many PC Sylvari have never killed some innocent deer or rabbit?
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