Guild Wars 2

Those are the vocal minority. We should talk more loudly than them to make our point valid.
Anyway, I totally agree with you with the idea that our character should not get ALL the credit. It doesn’t feel right at all to see hundred of people fighting beside us just for us to get all the credit. It feels like kormir or Traherne but backward.

You’ve beaten me to this. +1.

They are simply addressing something that many players complained about (even back in GW1).

I guess it’s hard to find a good balance between giving too much and too little credit.

But well, in many ways it’s the same for the Personal Story, in some cases. Canonically, I doubt there are as many “heroes of Shaemoor” as there should be, looking at all the surrounding players. In fact, the title sounds more like the player was the only civilian getting involved.

SunRoamer.5103:

They are simply addressing something that many players complained about (even back in GW1).

I guess it’s hard to find a good balance between giving too much and too little credit.

But well, in many ways it’s the same for the Personal Story, in some cases. Canonically, I doubt there are as many “heroes of Shaemoor” as there should be, looking at all the surrounding players. In fact, the title sounds more like the player was the only civilian getting involved.

yes but personal story has ended and now we play living story, they destroyed a very nice story just to feed the ego of players and make the outcome silly,
“i finished the job”. bleh.

Well i do not mind the “you did it” part, even though it is their writing and not our actual “winning”, however they might want to word it better.
Maybe in points where actual skill is involved.

If they would put in a real challenge at the end, maybe resulting in a dungeon that stays, instead of a mindless Zergfight and a “one button ending” then i would actually say: “yes i did it.”

However that is not the case. It is nice that they want to give us that feeling to acomplish something and it is always something that bothered players if they are alongside NPCs and scripted events, however in the end it is all how it is delivered.
Magnus is a straight man and is just bold with it. However they should cut it back a bit.
In the end it was a joined effort and no single person win.

Even though i can say: “yes i finaly killed Scarlet”

In other forum I wrote before update that “I would hate if in the final battle against Scarlet, the player would be the one that kills her in an instanced area”, well … it happened just like the way I didn’t want.
Now all players that saw that cut-scene is THE slayer of Scarlet, that makes the story inconsistent, in the future how they will tell who killed Scarlet?

Belzebu.3912:

In other forum I wrote before update that “I would hate if in the final battle against Scarlet, the player would be the one that kills her in an instanced area”, well … it happened just like the way I didn’t want.
Now all players that saw that cut-scene is THE slayer of Scarlet, that makes the story inconsistent, in the future how they will tell who killed Scarlet?

i guess the living story will keep praising you as the one that did it
they basically gave us an mmo with a single player story

Belzebu.3912:

In other forum I wrote before update that “I would hate if in the final battle against Scarlet, the player would be the one that kills her in an instanced area”, well … it happened just like the way I didn’t want.
Now all players that saw that cut-scene is THE slayer of Scarlet, that makes the story inconsistent, in the future how they will tell who killed Scarlet?

I don’t think it makes it inconsistent. We’re the ‘Pact Commander’ and the ‘Hero of Shaemoor’ as well. In an MMO certain areas of a game are permanently frozen in time. The dungeons are one such example. No matter how many paths they add (which I hope they do), the EXP 1-3 paths will always take place right after the story and before the next dungeon/slaying of Zhaitan. The player ‘canonically’ can only do the story of the dungeon, and one explorable path.

So for Scarlet’s death, it’s really only you and the B Iconics in the instance that spikes her. As someone pointed out on a different thread, if we really get down to it, only one hero of the game can exist. But it is an MMO and we need to bend slightly on that. The 1-80 zones of the game right now are all pre Zhaitan death zones. Southsun is not. Any newly added zones will be post Zhaitan and post Scarlet death. So, like in GW1, a player traveling zones (assuming they are not locked) will be traveling through time.

In GW1 you could run from AC to the Crystal Desert. Doing this fast forwarding through time and lore breaking as the dialogue at each location assumes a certain portion of the story complete.

I love my character being the main hero, and I have no interest in being the humble soldier, or otherwise just a background character. There have been many complains about how NPC’s overshadow our character or not being acknowledged in the past so I’m not the only one who feels this way. Guess you just can’t please everyone though.

I love my character being the main hero, It’s a good thing Anet finally let us be the hero. It’s been long overdue. No Trahearne this time around to steal the glory.

If I just want to be a cog in a machine I will play wow.

Funny thing is I remember post after post on these forums of players sick and tired of being second fidel to others (NPCs) in the game and clamoring to get a more central role in the story. Not ONCE did i see a large group of people crying out against this…until now. AFTER Anet delivers on the thing the community was seemingly asking for do we now see people not wanting it. LOL, it really is too funny. And more importantly the reasons why are just goofy. Saint said it best just now, the story assumes you to be a hero. Not that there are 19287349587435 people playing and that they are all the hero at the same time. Just you. Its a game people, really.

If you think Trahearne stole your glory then you didn’t get it and you’re missing the point of an MMO.

I can understand the reasoning behind the OP, good food for thought.

Saint.5647:

I don’t think it makes it inconsistent. We’re the ‘Pact Commander’ and the ‘Hero of Shaemoor’ as well. In an MMO certain areas of a game are permanently frozen in time. The dungeons are one such example.

We are not “the” Pact Commander, we are “a” Pact Commander, that is why Trahearne is “the” General and not us.
‘Hero of Shaemoor’ is the same thing, there is a big chance that in your Personal Story you saw another player with you killing the Earth Elemental and he is also one more ‘Hero of Shaemoor’.

Saint.5647:

In GW1 you could run from AC to the Crystal Desert. Doing this fast forwarding through time and lore breaking as the dialogue at each location assumes a certain portion of the story complete.

At least in GW1 a message appeared telling that: “Events you see here happened in the past”, or something close to that.

I know that MMOs have that problem, but they could try to avoid those situations, in the Scarlet case, if the player had a fight with her and then Kasmeer finished her, it would be all fine, all the players could be there helping and in the future anyone could say “Kasmeer gave the final blow on Scarlet” making the story 100% plausible.

EDIT: Most players will like this ending, but the more “hardcore” lore players won’t be truly satisfied.

I agree to some point. We have mass events with 200 people participating. It should be “You, the heroes” , not “You, the hero”.

At the moment we’ve got both sides of the problem.

(a) You cannot do anything storywise unless Trahearne, Kiel, Rox, Jory, or someone else drives the story for you.
(b) You get all the credit anyway even though you’re always just doing what someone else tells you to do.

This is mainly because the story is linear.

^agree

I would be happy even with minimal branching and even with same result but done in possible different way. Something like this:

Marjory is unconscious. Braham is hurt. Kasmeer is trying to kill Scarlet while Rox won’t leave Braham. You get to choose.

Option A: Choose to kill scarlet and end it just like in the game. Tiami doesn’t like you so much any more.

Option B: Choose to imprison Scarlet rather then kill her. Rox is ok with that but Kasmeer wants to kill her, and you can choose to let her or confront her. One of the following events takes place.
Option B1: Let her kill Scarlet. Kasmeer and you are ok, but Tiami is sad. And doesn’t like you any more.
Option B2: Confront Kasmeer. You fight her, but let her live. Kasmeer and Marjory are angry at you and don’t like you so much any more. Scarlet is later found dead in her cell due to unexplained events. But you know who to blame.

Option C: Let Scarlet escape so you can find out what is she up to. Rox doesn’t like this and puts an arrow trough her head. None from team B likes you no more, but Tiami is happy. You don’t need those lamers to like you anyways.

Mr Mango.3504:

If you think Trahearne stole your glory then you didn’t get it and you’re missing the point of an MMO.

If that was true we wouldn’t have the glory now.

I personally see it like this:
From a lore perspective, my character is the main character. And all other player characters are random soldiers/adventurers. And my alts simply exist in a paralell universe, hence why it’s possible to complete the same story more than once.

Rod.6581:

I agree to some point. We have mass events with 200 people participating. It should be “You, the heroes” , not “You, the hero”.

Getting to that point was a group effort but you actually finish her in your own instance, solo.

Would like it more if it was 5 man dungeon reather than this cinematic which i can’t skip.

I’m kinda shocked that being the main heroes means our characters are forced to commit murder on a beaten and defenseless enemy. I’d have preferred to capture her.

ThiBash.5634:

I’m kinda shocked that being the main heroes means our characters are forced to commit murder on a beaten and defenseless enemy. I’d have preferred to capture her.

I wouldn’t call someone who keeps throwing and endless supply of bombs at you defenseless

ThiBash.5634:

I’m kinda shocked that being the main heroes means our characters are forced to commit murder on a beaten and defenseless enemy. I’d have preferred to capture her.

She seemingly killed one of your friends and was actively trying to kill you while you finish her.

So you don’t get all the credit for killing Zhaitan and so you complain.
You get all the credit for killing Scarlet the second time around, and you complain.

Anet must feel like they cant win sometimes.

There are some things I would have done different but for how disjointed the Scarlet story arc was at the start, it had an alright ending. Though if Scarlet was meant to be the player’s “personal nemesis” then I feel it would only have been fitting for the final fight to be a 1v1 between you and Scarlet. Among other things that should have a spoiler tag so I wont post them here.

Belzebu.3912:

Saint.5647:

I don’t think it makes it inconsistent. We’re the ‘Pact Commander’ and the ‘Hero of Shaemoor’ as well. In an MMO certain areas of a game are permanently frozen in time. The dungeons are one such example.

We are not “the” Pact Commander, we are “a” Pact Commander, that is why Trahearne is “the” General and not us.
‘Hero of Shaemoor’ is the same thing, there is a big chance that in your Personal Story you saw another player with you killing the Earth Elemental and he is also one more ‘Hero of Shaemoor’.

Saint.5647:

In GW1 you could run from AC to the Crystal Desert. Doing this fast forwarding through time and lore breaking as the dialogue at each location assumes a certain portion of the story complete.

At least in GW1 a message appeared telling that: “Events you see here happened in the past”, or something close to that.

I know that MMOs have that problem, but they could try to avoid those situations, in the Scarlet case, if the player had a fight with her and then Kasmeer finished her, it would be all fine, all the players could be there helping and in the future anyone could say “Kasmeer gave the final blow on Scarlet” making the story 100% plausible.

EDIT: Most players will like this ending, but the more “hardcore” lore players won’t be truly satisfied.

No. You’re incorrect on both counts.

“We also agreed that I would be Trahearne’s second in command with the rank of commander. -Personal Story Hero Book”
“For THE hero of Shaemoor? Done. -Logan Thackery”
“Ah, THE hero of Shaemoor returns! -Lord Faren”

You’re also incorrect about the GW1 ‘message’. Guild Wars missions in Nightfall and Factions did indicate that players were about to Experience events as they happened. “Running” zones was, for the most part, halted/gated by Factions and Nightfall.

Please re-read what I wrote above (and you’ve quoted) regarding running AC to CD in Prophecies. Still stands true.

Cheers.

What I like: Being important to the other characters, seeing them invest in our friendship/partnership/trust and being able to do the same at times.

What I don’t like: Repeatedly being said how great I am and how my deeds were legendary as hell and stuff.

GW2 does le both, so nothing missing for me…

Shinzan.2908:

ThiBash.5634:

I’m kinda shocked that being the main heroes means our characters are forced to commit murder on a beaten and defenseless enemy. I’d have preferred to capture her.

She seemingly killed one of your friends and was actively trying to kill you while you finish her.

She was down. When the players goe down, they also attack stuff to rally. It’s self defense. Scarlet was literally fighting for her life at that point.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

ThiBash.5634:

I’m kinda shocked that being the main heroes means our characters are forced to commit murder on a beaten and defenseless enemy. I’d have preferred to capture her.

I wouldn’t call someone who keeps throwing and endless supply of bombs at you defenseless

they confirmed to her that they would kill her and then she started throwing bombs

Which brings me back to my original point. If the biconics decide they want to kill Scarlet, shouldn’t they at least do the job themselves? Why do we have to get out hands dirty? Are we some hired muscle mobsters or something?

You’ve been slashing and hacking your way through charr, mole-men, and aether-soldiers for the past week and now you’re having a moral dilemma about killing the chick that routinely drops orbital nukes on peaceful cities?

Personally, I felt like a pretty big kitten ed hero these last couple of events~

Warkupo.1025:

You’ve been slashing and hacking your way through charr, mole-men, and aether-soldiers for the past week and now you’re having a moral dilemma about killing the chick that routinely drops orbital nukes on peaceful cities?

Personally, I felt like a pretty big kitten ed hero these last couple of events~

if i had a choice i really did not want her to die because she was a very interesting character she could stay alive and mess with both good and evil guys.

but i cant beat a ranger in a duel how im i supposed to be the one that killed her?

and why are lore characters so useless?
Rox: “i dont have to do anything” ehhm ok

Saint.5647:

The 1-80 zones of the game right now are all pre Zhaitan death zones. Southsun is not.

Are you sure?

Warkupo.1025:

You’ve been slashing and hacking your way through charr, mole-men, and aether-soldiers for the past week and now you’re having a moral dilemma about killing the chick that routinely drops orbital nukes on peaceful cities?

Yes. It’s my job to make sure she stops harming people. I leave judgement to those more qualified. Also, the issue isn’t defeating her in self defense…it’s about killing her when she’s pretty much helpless. I’m against the death penalty irl too.

Let’s join a guild with Mar, Kas, Bra, Rox and Taimi in the next step and everyone can say. A member of ‘“Guildname” did it as well as "I’m a member of Guildname!".

I know what you mean but I liked finishing her.

I agree with the OP. It’s just silly not to say that the biconics killed Scarlet. It’s as if the main charakter of LotR wasn’t Frodo Baggins but [insert player name].

Rod.6581:

^agree

I would be happy even with minimal branching and even with same result but done in possible different way. Something like this:

Marjory is unconscious. Braham is hurt. Kasmeer is trying to kill Scarlet while Rox won’t leave Braham. You get to choose.

Option A: Choose to kill scarlet and end it just like in the game. Tiami doesn’t like you so much any more.

Option B: Choose to imprison Scarlet rather then kill her. Rox is ok with that but Kasmeer wants to kill her, and you can choose to let her or confront her. One of the following events takes place.
Option B1: Let her kill Scarlet. Kasmeer and you are ok, but Tiami is sad. And doesn’t like you any more.
Option B2: Confront Kasmeer. You fight her, but let her live. Kasmeer and Marjory are angry at you and don’t like you so much any more. Scarlet is later found dead in her cell due to unexplained events. But you know who to blame.

Option C: Let Scarlet escape so you can find out what is she up to. Rox doesn’t like this and puts an arrow trough her head. None from team B likes you no more, but Tiami is happy. You don’t need those lamers to like you anyways.

I’d love to have something like this. Not only for having a choice.

You know, the biggest problem I have with GW2 NPCs is that they all like you or are neutral. There is no main character that does NOT like you.

I find that extremely BORING.

Having the chance to make someone angry about something you did might actually make you feel like your actions matter, and you are NOT a puppet that gets all the glory.

SirMoogie.9263:

Saint.5647:

The 1-80 zones of the game right now are all pre Zhaitan death zones. Southsun is not.

Are you sure?

An interesting point. One I’ve considered myself as well. Some of the NPC dialogue is indeed contradictory. Actually, traveling to Sparkfly before completing the story up until Ft. Trinity, is ‘non-canon’. So I can see the point you’re making.

Events run cyclically because it is an MMO however. Were it a single player RPG, Tequatl could only die once. You could only claim a fort once. So, I think it is meant to be a progression from Lv1 zones, through your story, through the dungeon story paths (some w/multiple explorable paths and some with only one), and to the 80 zones. After this, the LS picks up canonically.

Lost Shores was confirmed to be post Zhaitan death. LS that followed was also post Zhaitan’s death. So, we do know that there is a timeline. Assuming a player joined the game a month after Lost Shores, they would essentially be ‘in the past’ up until they caught up on the entire personal story and killed Zhaitan.

I think it’s more of an issue of proper exposition than anything else. There is no overarching timeline laid out in game for players to know what came before. In Guild Wars 1, you could complete Prophecies missions with an Elonan character. This is non-canon of course. Still, it’s just a design choice.

Perhaps the best solution would be to establish an in game timeline and display messages for missions/quests that tell the player that these events took place X [measure of time] ago.

ThiBash.5634:

Which brings me back to my original point. If the biconics decide they want to kill Scarlet, shouldn’t they at least do the job themselves? Why do we have to get out hands dirty? Are we some hired muscle mobsters or something?

What I find even stranger is the only person from Lion’s Arch on the ship turns around and decides she doesn’t want kill Scarlet. Appearently Braham and Kasmeer had more reason to take down Scarlet than Kiel, a member of both the Lionguard and the Captain’s Council.

Kiel’s not a member of the new Destiny’s Edge-like hero guild. Its five members are Braham, Rox, Kas, Marjory, and the player character.

I would love to see branching choices with permanent consequences. That would increase replayability on multiple characters AND drive people to buy gems to unlock more character slots to experience all the quest choices. Everybody wins.

ThiBash.5634:

Which brings me back to my original point. If the biconics decide they want to kill Scarlet, shouldn’t they at least do the job themselves? Why do we have to get out hands dirty? Are we some hired muscle mobsters or something?

Let me tell you what: I actually felt dirty when I was “forced” to kill Scarlet. I’m against this philosophy in real life (if it ever happens to me <.<), I wish it could be the case with my character… It really sadden me.

Furthermore, not only was I against killing Scarlet, but our character also gains nothing. If we captured her instead, we could’ve at least force her to provide some crucial informations against our new threat: Mordremoth. What a waste really.

ThiBash.5634:

Warkupo.1025:

You’ve been slashing and hacking your way through charr, mole-men, and aether-soldiers for the past week and now you’re having a moral dilemma about killing the chick that routinely drops orbital nukes on peaceful cities?

Yes. It’s my job to make sure she stops harming people. I leave judgement to those more qualified. Also, the issue isn’t defeating her in self defense…it’s about killing her when she’s pretty much helpless. I’m against the death penalty irl too.

I generally share that opinion to a point; orbital nuking a city is that point. Scarlet has also proven to me that she is never ‘helpless’. You have to respect her enough to know that, even as she’s kneeling in a pool of her own blood, she’s still a deadly opponent that can take your head off if your approach her carelessly. Given that she starts chucking grenades at you as soon as you get close to her I don’t think striking her down is any different than the hundreds of enemies you would have had to strike down to get to her in the first place.

She quite clearly wanted to go to jail as that was another step in her plan. You can tell it in the way she mocks you as she brings up what she assumes is the next course of action. Killing her was the only decent solution.

jihm.2315:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

ThiBash.5634:

I’m kinda shocked that being the main heroes means our characters are forced to commit murder on a beaten and defenseless enemy. I’d have preferred to capture her.

I wouldn’t call someone who keeps throwing and endless supply of bombs at you defenseless

they confirmed to her that they would kill her and then she started throwing bombs

hmm, I wonder why they did that?
Maybe it has something to do with all the atrocities she commited and basically declaring war on the entire world. She got it coming. If you are a deranged psychopath who slaughters thousands of people then this is something you must expect.

She would also be way too dangerous in captivity.

To me it just feels way more epic to be a part of a band of heroes, who saves the world. To think that I could save Tyria single handedly from the great Elder Dragons is just plain silly.

If I want to be the one great hero, I’ll go play a single player game.
But in an MMO; in a war against the mightiest of the mightiest; I would be honored if I could say that: “On that day, when thousands and thousands of valiant soldiers stormed the beaches to fight the great dragon… I was there. I was one of them. And together we prevailed!”.

Compared to: “On that day, when valiant I stormed the beach to fight the great dragon. I did it all on my own. I poked him in the eye with a stick, he died. And I prevailed on my own while the rest of the world did nothing”.

Yeah, right…

Titus.4285:

To me it just feels way more epic to be a part of a band of heroes, who saves the world.

Then you’re in luck because that’s exactly what you got.
You were not alone when you killed Zhaitan and you were not alone when you killed Scarlet. Do you did make the killing blow, at least with Scarlet.

Warkupo.1025:

ThiBash.5634:

Warkupo.1025:

You’ve been slashing and hacking your way through charr, mole-men, and aether-soldiers for the past week and now you’re having a moral dilemma about killing the chick that routinely drops orbital nukes on peaceful cities?

Yes. It’s my job to make sure she stops harming people. I leave judgement to those more qualified. Also, the issue isn’t defeating her in self defense…it’s about killing her when she’s pretty much helpless. I’m against the death penalty irl too.

I generally share that opinion to a point; orbital nuking a city is that point. Scarlet has also proven to me that she is never ‘helpless’. You have to respect her enough to know that, even as she’s kneeling in a pool of her own blood, she’s still a deadly opponent that can take your head off if your approach her carelessly. Given that she starts chucking grenades at you as soon as you get close to her I don’t think striking her down is any different than the hundreds of enemies you would have had to strike down to get to her in the first place.

She quite clearly wanted to go to jail as that was another step in her plan. You can tell it in the way she mocks you as she brings up what she assumes is the next course of action. Killing her was the only decent solution.

You know, she wasn’t actually THAT smart:

she kept hurling grenades at the mesmer who wasn’t even touching her while ignoring the guy coming to impale her.

Other than that, killing her is the really DUMB solution:

you have NO idea what she was doing and you probably won’t be able to understand what’s going on from her ship. You are just hoping that whatever she was doing by drilling in front of Lion’s Arch has been stopped soon enough will have no consequences whatsoever and that the whole process will stop with her demise.

This means counting on the fact her goal required time to be achieved, and she worked on it betting on the fact she could invade Lion’s Arch without anyone actually striking back until she was finished. Betting that no one would care about the destruction of the most important city in all of Tyria.

i.e.: Killing her means counting on the fact that the enemy who everyone recognizes as the highest mind of this time does something INCREDIBLY stupid.

Braham deserved MUCH MORE than a broken leg.

jihm.2315:

Belzebu.3912:

In other forum I wrote before update that “I would hate if in the final battle against Scarlet, the player would be the one that kills her in an instanced area”, well … it happened just like the way I didn’t want.
Now all players that saw that cut-scene is THE slayer of Scarlet, that makes the story inconsistent, in the future how they will tell who killed Scarlet?

i guess the living story will keep praising you as the one that did it
they basically gave us an mmo with a single player story

what about the new player who didn’t kill Scarlet?

There needs to be a Kormir finisher just for OP.

frostyraziel.1854:

There needs to be a Kormir finisher just for OP.

Oh my.

I’d LOVE to kill Kormir.