Guild Wars 2

redslion.9675:

Warkupo.1025:

ThiBash.5634:

Warkupo.1025:

You’ve been slashing and hacking your way through charr, mole-men, and aether-soldiers for the past week and now you’re having a moral dilemma about killing the chick that routinely drops orbital nukes on peaceful cities?

Yes. It’s my job to make sure she stops harming people. I leave judgement to those more qualified. Also, the issue isn’t defeating her in self defense…it’s about killing her when she’s pretty much helpless. I’m against the death penalty irl too.

I generally share that opinion to a point; orbital nuking a city is that point. Scarlet has also proven to me that she is never ‘helpless’. You have to respect her enough to know that, even as she’s kneeling in a pool of her own blood, she’s still a deadly opponent that can take your head off if your approach her carelessly. Given that she starts chucking grenades at you as soon as you get close to her I don’t think striking her down is any different than the hundreds of enemies you would have had to strike down to get to her in the first place.

She quite clearly wanted to go to jail as that was another step in her plan. You can tell it in the way she mocks you as she brings up what she assumes is the next course of action. Killing her was the only decent solution.

You know, she wasn’t actually THAT smart:

she kept hurling grenades at the mesmer who wasn’t even touching her while ignoring the guy coming to impale her.

Other than that, killing her is the really DUMB solution:

you have NO idea what she was doing and you probably won’t be able to understand what’s going on from her ship. You are just hoping that whatever she was doing by drilling in front of Lion’s Arch has been stopped soon enough will have no consequences whatsoever and that the whole process will stop with her demise.

This means counting on the fact her goal required time to be achieved, and she worked on it betting on the fact she could invade Lion’s Arch without anyone actually striking back until she was finished. Betting that no one would care about the destruction of the most important city in all of Tyria.

i.e.: Killing her means counting on the fact that the enemy who everyone recognizes as the highest mind of this time does something INCREDIBLY stupid.

Braham deserved MUCH MORE than a broken leg.

It’s not as though she attacked Lion’s Arch for giggles; the convergence of laylines was under the city (ironically, right around the central hub in GW1. Who would have thought that was there the whole time). She had to drill there if she wanted to accomplish whatever it was she was trying to accomplish.

She clearly planned on people caring or she would not nuked the city, coated it in miasma, and then placed nearly the entirety of her army throughout the place. The only part that is kind of dumb is that she kept sending her knights down to try to kill us while those were simultaneously the only way for us to reach her. I’ll chalk that one up to a gameplay mechanic, but honestly all she would have had to do is just… Stay up in her floating, impenetrable tower.

Also, she pretty much succeeded in her plans anyway; her timing was only slightly off. We literally arrived seconds too late.

I don’t think killing her was a dumb solution from the perspective of our characters at the time either; clearly whatever she was doing was bad, but given her history letting her live so that she might outsmart everyone again and continue killing everything in Tyria is also bad. I call killing her a ‘decent’ solution because it didn’t actually solve all our problems, it was just one of the better paths available to us at the moment. You don’t corner a tiger and then try to negotiate with it.

I think Scarlet would have worked out better if she was less annoying and actually acted smart and calculating rather than trying to imitate the Joker, and also if she was less of a Mary Sue. As is I just wanted to be rid of her, and didn’t feel like listening to her smug boasting. She didn’t feel like a credible villain and didn’t earn my respect, so why should I care or listen to anything she has to say?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/too-many-npc-heroes/first#post3693466
That and now this.
Seems ANet can’t win no matter what.

Personally, I’m really pleased they’ve put the player character back in the spotlight. Throughout way too much of the early LW releases, I felt like my character was a complete lackey being ordered to go here and do this and then getting zero credit for it. It was bad enough when the personal story fell into that pattern.

I’ve disagreed with a lot of the LW, but this year the writing has been significantly better and I feel much more a part of what’s going on instead of Soldier X waiting around on standby for orders and then getting to watch NPCs bask in the glory.

Warkupo.1025:

snip

Yes, but she’s an engineer. Remove her gadgets, put her in restraints under heavy guard and she should be helpless, right? Then try to force her to say what she’s doing.

The problem is that no npc actually thought about understanding what she was doing, and they were all about killing her. Hoping she needed much more time (that’s what I was saying: they bet all their money on the fact she was trying to seize control of Lion’s Arch)

As a charr engi, all I know is that her work affected one dragon. Do we have information about where the dragon is, how much energy it needs, what its conditions will be in case of awakening and so on?

If yes, then I might understand killing Scarlet doesn’t matter, because the process would have worked nonetheless and we already gathered informations.

If not, she might have been the only way to know.

Other than that… why there wasn’t an asura engineer (I say asura because her technology seems similar to theirs) in the team sent to kill Scarlet? You know, someone with at least a chance of stopping her plan? Seems like the idea was just “kill Scarlet for justice” all along. Even during the whole battle before that, an expert on that kind of technology might have been useful.

jihm.2315:

if you talked to Magnus after Scarlet encounter then you will know what im talking about.
stop trying to boost players ego as being “that thing that did it all”.
our characters should be part of the story as humble soldiers not the main characters.

stop using the “i did it” thing.

i dont know if you catch my point but i wanted to say this.

the living story is great but has there is a lot cliche in it.

You should know who you are talking to! I am a commander of the pact, Trahearne’s right hand!
…
Oh wait, you are too?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I personally see it like this:
From a lore perspective, my character is the main character. And all other player characters are random soldiers/adventurers. And my alts simply exist in a paralell universe, hence why it’s possible to complete the same story more than once.

I agree with this point of view.

Consider that in PvP and WvW, you are stomping other players that are from alternate Tyrian realities. Anvil Rock is a completely different world than Black Gate, but all the events run parallel to each other, the only real differences being what heroes took part in those events,…and who killed Tequatl first.

So you know what? Yeah! My Game Client shows me a version of Tyria (out of a billion other versions) where my Character is the Pact Commander, Who killed an Elder Dragon, Broke apart Evil Alliances, and Fought an epic battle against a Red Salad. All the other players are Adventurers, soldiers, lackeys, and lesser commanders that are helping me while I play the game.

But in another person’s game, they are actually playing in a different reality of Tyria, one where they are the pact commander, who killed an elder dragon, broke apart evil alliances, and fought an epic battle against a red salad. In their game from their perspective, I’m the random adventurer, soldier, lackey, lesser commander that is helping him/her achieve great things.

Maybe in your perspective, and your game, we’re all just random adventurers, soldiers, lackeys, and lesser commanders, just following NPCs around while they get all the glory. There’s nothing in the game that says you’re exactly wrong, nor does it say that I’m exactly wrong either.

ASaturnus.4980:

I agree with the OP. It’s just silly not to say that the biconics killed Scarlet. It’s as if the main charakter of LotR wasn’t Frodo Baggins but [insert player name].

Wait, what about Strider? and Gandalf? And Sam? And Gollum? Why was half of the story (literally) spent on chapters talking about everyone else if Frodo is supposed to be the main character?

jihm.2315:

if you talked to Magnus after Scarlet encounter then you will know what im talking about.
stop trying to boost players ego as being “that thing that did it all”.
our characters should be part of the story as humble soldiers not the main characters.

stop using the “i did it” thing.

i dont know if you catch my point but i wanted to say this.

the living story is great but has there is a lot cliche in it.

I know EXACTLY what you mean, it’s like going in old LA and say “Hey everybody, I just killed Zaithan” yeah, so did everyone else.
The problem is writing a compelling story for the player when he’s not the focal point and the “hero”, a story like that might come across as underwhelming.
That say it is possible and I’ve seen it nice done in other games that I’m not gonna name here.

I want my character to be the hero of the story, I want my accmplishments recognised and not given to the supporting characters and I don’t want to follow around a band of other characters doing their work for them but I am perfectly fine with the way Tequatl is handed (aside from Rox’s inclusion in it). I don’t need NPCs to walk around saying “good job on killing Tequatl”, I’d love to be seen as part of the group that does so however.

When it comes to Scarlet I would have been fine if the heroes of Lion’s Arch (the players – all of them) got credit for the kill. I personally didn’t need to stomp her myself and I didn’t need everyone in Lion’s Arch to talk about me as if I’m the one who did it. From my perspective, Scarlet was defeated by around 50 heroes (or more if you will) on the platform outside of the instance. I thought the instance itself was unnecessary.

I liked the way the Karka Queen was handled and would have been fine if Scarlet went that way. I understand why we were given the chance to personally stomp her, I’m sure many players find that satisfying, but defeating her on her ship as a group and then it blowing up with her inside of it would have been just as satisfying for me.

CureForLiving.5360:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/too-many-npc-heroes/first#post3693466
That and now this.
Seems ANet can’t win no matter what.

Well, as of now, we got the worst of both worlds:

you are praised as if you were the centre of the universe, without being able to make choices that actually matter or to develop you character in your own way.

You are a glorified puppet.

On one side, you shouldn’t be the main hero. On the other, you should be able to make choices during Personal and Living story that change the way NPCs look at you.

You don’t need these choices to change the course of the story. At the end of the mission, the result will be the same. The thing that will change will be the dialogues between you and npcs. Time to put that personality indicator to work.

example: when you confront Scarlet, you might decide not to kill her, and fight against your allies for it. You win, and Scarlet ends up in prison. One day later, she is found dead.

There, Scarlet is still gone, nothing actually changed, but you decided to stand up for what you felt was right and those B-iconics might see you now with resentment mixed with fear, for you faced them and made them eat dirt.

Here, now players are not the main heroes, but likeable secondary characters.

They won’t have the spotlight, but they’ll come out and kick your kitten if they want to.

redslion.9675:

example: when you confront Scarlet, you might decide not to kill her, and fight against your allies for it. You win, and Scarlet ends up in prison. One day later, she is found dead.

There, Scarlet is still gone, nothing actually changed, but you decided to stand up for what you felt was right and those B-iconics might see you now with resentment mixed with fear, for you faced them and made them eat dirt.

Here, now players are not the main heroes, but likeable secondary characters.

They won’t have the spotlight, but they’ll come out and kick your kitten if they want to.

If such a thing could be implemented for future LS releases, I’d be very happy.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Titus.4285:

To me it just feels way more epic to be a part of a band of heroes, who saves the world.

Then you’re in luck because that’s exactly what you got.
You were not alone when you killed Zhaitan and you were not alone when you killed Scarlet. Do you did make the killing blow, at least with Scarlet.

That’s true. Still, I felt really lonely during the Personal Story. Instanced as the only player, the NPCs around me (even Trahearne) didn’t really help much to give me that “great army, great battle for the world” feel. I think that they could have done a lot for this feel, if they’ve done the same with Fort Trinity and Zhaitan (e.g.), like they did with the tutorials. That could have been a totally different and better experience imo.

When that’s said, I do feel that I’m more “a part” of the LS storyline. I didn’t defeat Scarlet alone, not at all. Yes, the killing blow is instanced, but I didn’t really mind that too much. I guess it also allows some creative space for players who do want to be ‘the hero’, and I’m fine with that. But, after the event I agree that NPCs should give credit to all heroes.

P.S. I love your signature line Windu

Is it me or does the OP message sound like "I don’t like being a special snowflake, I want to be an unrecognized cog in the machine! "

That’s the undertone I’m picking up. Not that it’s necessarily bad, but in a video game where the story is interactive with the player I feel it is.

When I want a story that doesn’t give me credit I’ll watch a show, a movie, or read a story. I’m not taking part in those stories so I shouldn’t get any credit.

Shockwave.1230:

Is it me or does the OP message sound like "I don’t like being a special snowflake, I want to be an unrecognized cog in the machine! "

That’s the undertone I’m picking up. Not that it’s necessarily bad, but in a video game where the story is interactive with the player I feel it is.

When I want a story that doesn’t give me credit I’ll watch a show, a movie, or read a story. I’m not taking part in those stories so I shouldn’t get any credit.

Watch out! You’ll get called out for being narcissistic and having self-esteem issues by various members of the community if you keep that attitude!

Then again, to be fair, These people can keep saying that they would rather be an unrecognized cog in a machine, but my experience working on passenger jets tells me that it doesn’t matter how big or small the ‘cog’ is. Every part is numbered and identified (even individual rivets and screws are numbered by section and location), and every part serves the equally important task of keeping the hundreds of passengers and crew aboard the plane alive.

Dozens of mechanics toil day after day, week after week, servicing parts that still have a long life ahead of them, cleaning them, and changing out parts that valiantly reach the end of their service life, to be replaced and retired to the recycling bin, to start life again a few months later as a new part to the plane, no more or less important than the part you started as. Not even hollywood gets the attention that mechanics put into a single part on a plane whose job is to keep people alive and in a safe enviroment.

So guess what? People might not like to say it (especially people in the Lore Forums), You’re still unique and a hero that will get the proper recognition and love, pretty much no matter what!

Shockwave.1230:

Is it me or does the OP message sound like "I don’t like being a special snowflake, I want to be an unrecognized cog in the machine! "

That’s the undertone I’m picking up. Not that it’s necessarily bad, but in a video game where the story is interactive with the player I feel it is.

When I want a story that doesn’t give me credit I’ll watch a show, a movie, or read a story. I’m not taking part in those stories so I shouldn’t get any credit.

Yes, you are a special snowflake (clapclap). But so am I, and every other player in this game. So you are just one of many “special snowflakes”. In this terms, it would be better if we were some guy in the backline rather than beeing the “hero”. The story wouldn’t be that flawed. It’s like “Hey, I’ve stombed scarlet!”, “Hey, I stombet her too”, “You know what, Player XY stombet her too! Man I fell so special right now.”

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Shockwave.1230:

Is it me or does the OP message sound like "I don’t like being a special snowflake, I want to be an unrecognized cog in the machine! "

That’s the undertone I’m picking up. Not that it’s necessarily bad, but in a video game where the story is interactive with the player I feel it is.

When I want a story that doesn’t give me credit I’ll watch a show, a movie, or read a story. I’m not taking part in those stories so I shouldn’t get any credit.

Yes, you are a special snowflake (clapclap). But so am I, and every other player in this game. So you are just one of many “special snowflakes”. In this terms, it would be better if we were some guy in the backline rather than beeing the “hero”. The story wouldn’t be that flawed. It’s like “Hey, I’ve stombed scarlet!”, “Hey, I stombet her too”, “You know what, Player XY stombet her too! Man I fell so special right now.”

Every player in GW1 did all the same story and it was told as if the player was the hero, except when Kormir becomes a god, but honestly the player couldn’t unless GW1 were to end with Nightfall .

Every player in any game does the same long term story. The different opinion is you don’t want your credit acknowledged and / or don’t want to be part of the most important symbolic moments? There’s no problem with getting the credit where it’s deserved. It’s better to make your player base feel good than slighted after all.

ThiBash.5634:

redslion.9675:

example: when you confront Scarlet, you might decide not to kill her, and fight against your allies for it. You win, and Scarlet ends up in prison. One day later, she is found dead.

There, Scarlet is still gone, nothing actually changed, but you decided to stand up for what you felt was right and those B-iconics might see you now with resentment mixed with fear, for you faced them and made them eat dirt.

Here, now players are not the main heroes, but likeable secondary characters.

They won’t have the spotlight, but they’ll come out and kick your kitten if they want to.

If such a thing could be implemented for future LS releases, I’d be very happy.

You cant let everybody live. Scarlet has shown she’s willing and able to attack and severely cripple major cities, kill thousands, and then laugh while she’s doing it.

This isn’t modern times, we cant just lock her up in a padded room. She’s shown she can easily get people out of jail and even killed someone on the captain’s council, the governing body of lion’s arch.

If you have the option WHY do you let someone like this live? Even if you roleplay a character as being passive or non-combative, there’s a line at some point and Scarlet has crossed it. If you are RPing a character that passive that you don’t want to kill someone who has done that, what does your character do at the battle for LA anyway? Why arnt you upset at anet not including any non-combat updates?

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

ThiBash.5634:

redslion.9675:

example: when you confront Scarlet, you might decide not to kill her, and fight against your allies for it. You win, and Scarlet ends up in prison. One day later, she is found dead.

There, Scarlet is still gone, nothing actually changed, but you decided to stand up for what you felt was right and those B-iconics might see you now with resentment mixed with fear, for you faced them and made them eat dirt.

Here, now players are not the main heroes, but likeable secondary characters.

They won’t have the spotlight, but they’ll come out and kick your kitten if they want to.

If such a thing could be implemented for future LS releases, I’d be very happy.

You cant let everybody live. Scarlet has shown she’s willing and able to attack and severely cripple major cities, kill thousands, and then laugh while she’s doing it.

This isn’t modern times, we cant just lock her up in a padded room. She’s shown she can easily get people out of jail and even killed someone on the captain’s council, the governing body of lion’s arch.

If you have the option WHY do you let someone like this live? Even if you roleplay a character as being passive or non-combative, there’s a line at some point and Scarlet has crossed it. If you are RPing a character that passive that you don’t want to kill someone who has done that, what does your character do at the battle for LA anyway? Why arnt you upset at anet not including any non-combat updates?

Well, you might not want to kill Scarlet yet because you might get some information from her. And she’s an engineer.Take away her gadgets and she is harmless, as long as you are not dumb.

kitten, severe all her limbs if needed! No matter how smart she is, she wouldn’t be able to do much without arms or legs.

Seems like every NPC forgot she was actually doing SOMETHING on that ship, and nobody bothered to look at it (yeah, even at the risk of going down with the ship). And now we havea dragon on the loose. Who knew! She wasn’t just standing on that ship.

Other than that, we knew she was messing with leylines. We also knew that magical power can be used to strengthen dragons enough to awaken them. There was a chance that she was trying to do exactly that. And a pretty big chance she was corrupted to want something like that.

But didn’t we know Silvary aren’t corrupted by dragons? How is this possible? A good reason to study her.

This might be more important than justice, right?

There is no obvious right decision. Don’t try to justify this living story choice finding one.

That attack she did to knock you back? The was very clearly magic and not a gadget. Plus again she has a personal army that are very loyal to her.

There might have been a reason to keep her alive, but theres more of a reason not to. There are only 6 elder dragons in the world that we know of, and we know 4 of the 6 to be awake, and 1 dead. What are the odds of Scarlet knowing the location of and waking up the last one?

The longer we let her live, the longer she has to escape, and after months of dealing with Scarlet, after all she’s done, knowing that Scarlet still has an army down in the city against 5 people, you still let her live when she’s cornered? That was still the best decision in the character’s shoes.

Also keep in mind, we know Scarlet was doing something with the leylines, but we don’t know what. For all we know her plan was in the early stages, but i’m sure the original plan was Rox or Marjory would have shut down the drill and Scarlet was sort of in the way blocking you from stopping it.

You’d still be complaining if Braham said “Ok Scarlet what was your plan?” and then she explained it for 10 minutes giving enough time for the dragon to wake up. Asking how could the heroes fall for that obvious stall for time.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

That attack she did to knock you back? The was very clearly magic and not a gadget.

That’s an altered version of Magnetic Shield…which is an engineering skilll and thus not magic. Magitech at best, but not magic.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

That attack she did to knock you back? The was very clearly magic and not a gadget. Plus again she has a personal army that are very loyal to her.

There might have been a reason to keep her alive, but theres more of a reason not to. There are only 6 elder dragons in the world that we know of, and we know 4 of the 6 to be awake, and 1 dead. What are the odds of Scarlet knowing the location of and waking up the last one?

The longer we let her live, the longer she has to escape, and after months of dealing with Scarlet, after all she’s done, knowing that Scarlet still has an army down in the city against 5 people, you still let her live when she’s cornered? That was still the best decision in the character’s shoes.

Also keep in mind, we know Scarlet was doing something with the leylines, but we don’t know what. For all we know her plan was in the early stages, but i’m sure the original plan was Rox or Marjory would have shut down the drill and Scarlet was sort of in the way blocking you from stopping it.

You’d still be complaining if Braham said “Ok Scarlet what was your plan?” and then she explained it for 10 minutes giving enough time for the dragon to wake up. Asking how could the heroes fall for that obvious stall for time.

The idea was to restrain her, send an expert to see what he could do to the machine, THEN question her. When at least you TRIED to stop her plan.

Then you can break her body and her mind into telling you everything, or dissect her to see if she was corrupted.

Yeah, you didn’t know if she was tryig to do that. But whatever it is, it would have generated a lot of power. Even if it was just to fuel Molten Alliance’s war machines (example), it would still be a hell of a problem.

Enough to make you not wanting to just HOPE she was in the initial stage of her plan.