Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

Same place the resources came from to split the Bastion bosses between regular and challenge mote. The precedent is there.

So longer development between raids.

Scale-wise, we have an idea of what players are expected to be able to handle in recent Living Story instances. While I’m not going to plant my flag at this particular point, an appropriate scale would probably be to make the story-mode raids a little harder than Living Story instances, taking into account that the story-mode raids would be done as a group while Living Story instances are generally soloed.

And we immediately run into the first problem. When you say group, I assume you mean the same size 10 man? That’s a barrier that has been stated time and time again by those non-raiding folks interested in the Raid lore as unacceptable right now. They want this to be soloed. If you don’t agree, you already are cutting the folks you are trying to get into this raid lore down quite a bit. But if we make it a solo instance…that’s a lot more work than just “tweaking the numbers”.

Rewards-wise… possibly around the level that explorable dungeons are at now. Enough that you aren’t getting nothing if you do choose to repeat them for fun, low enough that they’re not going to be the next farm.

So no more than a couple times, and a little more often than Activities. For a group that’s purely interested in the lore accessibility of the encounters themselves.

For training purposes, I expect so. The reward for failing a boss is pretty minimal: practicing against an easy-mode version of the boss until you feel ready to hit the real thing may well feel more rewarding overall, especially if you consider intrinsic rewards over “you got wiped for the nth time, have some magnetite shards as a consolation prize”.

Interesting that you suggest that this story-mode instance would be useful for training, that seems to supplement my thought above that you still think that this story-mode should be a 10-man. But furthermore, what’s the difference between training on the real thing and earning shards versus training on a lesser version that can’t possibly beat you and won’t give you a better picture of the real deal? I think the training would be far worse on the story-mode since it can’t accurately represent the real encounter at that low-level of ‘slightly above Living Story’.

Unquantifiable, but the interest is clearly there. People know that the first raid was really more of a prologue than a side-story anyway.

Interest doesn’t warrant a need to create. Hell I am interested in having Legendary Weapons being bought for Karma of which I reckon I can find a massive following agreeing with me. Doesn’t make it a good idea.

Again, unquantifiable, but other games have made the transition successfully. The full raids will still be the highest difficulty content in the game with unique rewards even if an easier mode was introduced.

I wouldn’t say successful. That’s a discussion for another day.

I think you underestimate the willingness of some people outside of the hardcore raiding community to repeat content for little extrinsic reward for the intrinsic reward of helping a friend to see something they wouldn’t be able to otherwise.

But it still wouldn’t be popular. The worry here is that Story-Mode will turn to dust on the wayside, just because the real Raid-mode gives the REAL rewards everyone wants and the same lore. They will do it once, go farm silverwastes or whatever OTHER open-world content gives them more Gold Per hour.

draxynnic.3719:

The above are the only folks that will gain something, that’s it. We aren’t attracting other communities like PvP and WvW obviously, but groups who aren’t interested in lore only won’t come. Players who in this story-mode to find the raid loot hopefully won’t come if you agree that Raid Loot should be obtained in the Raid-mode only. The appeal to apply resources to a story-mode version needs to have a pay-off. Because Raids right now are kitten ed well strapped for resources, they aren’t releasing a Wing every quarter, I didn’t expect Crystal’s enthusiasm with that comment to play out as intended.

Actually, it could lead to more resources being freed up for raids in the long run. How? Because if more people can experience the raid story, even if they just go through once, there’s going to be less rebellion if there’s an extended period where raids are the only new content of real note to come out – such as happened between October 2015 and June 2016.

The playerbase is selfish as hell sometimes, they forgot the returned and newly rewarding festivals, Revamped Shatterer, HoT Map rework, etc. The only thing that wasn’t added was the continued story while Heart of Thorns was launched for 8 months, and they needed a scapegoat.

Furthermore, by applying a story-mode, those who wanted the lore as an incentive to try the current difficulty and maybe realize they can do the content, no longer are part of a pool of new raiders coming in. What do Raiders gain? They gain nothing, they lose just about everything from this deal.

And maybe people who go through it at a level which is challenging but still more forgiving will then have more confidence to move on to develop their skills further and try to complete the full raids, therefore expanding the raiding community, instead of spending several hours eating dirt and deciding it just isn’t fun?

I want to iterate that the difficulty jump between something slightly harder than the living story, to current raiding is still rather large. Just visualizing the transition still makes me think Story-mode raiders will still spend hours on Raid-Mode VG.

And do not take your low-hanging fruit for resources applied here, your subjective experiences do not factor into the spagetti code that GW2 seems to be working from. Releasing just this recent wing has made Forsaken Thicket already more buggy than normal, KC is a kittenfest, still doable but so bad right now. In whatever you think Arenanet could just ‘nerf numbers’ isn’t something on a dial, the backend systems for fractals versus Raids/Dungeons (Given the interface I believe raids and dungeons share more similarities) are way different.

And yet, you have different difficulty levels in Bastion of the Penitent. The precedent certainly is there… and it’s not like the content has ever been bug-free all the time.

I despise what they did with Bastion. They disappointed a lot of raiders who were expecting something on-par with the previous wings and instead they went softer, and made the ‘hard-mode’ a one time, no reason to repeat, deal. The devs right now need to look to improve their raid difficulty a bit more now, not look to spend more time creating a lore mode that will still be group content, with a difficulty tuned far lower than the current raiding to make transitions easier, with rewards so crappy they aren’t run beyond a few times…

I am well aware the devs could create difficulty levels with motes, they technically did with changed abilities in Bastion. But it wasn’t done right. Not at all.

To interject a bit of fresh, if still anecdotal, perspective: my guild isn’t just complaining about needing ten people, they’re complaining about needing ten people with complimentary gear sets and builds, the coordination groundwork to communicate clearly and concisely, the free time to read up on mechanics and the skill to execute their roles, the patience to fail repeatedly over stupidly small mistakes until they got it right, the schedules to allow the full team to be on together long enough to stop failing, AND the hardware and geographical locations to make lag and disconnects an infrequent vexation. Despite those barriers, they still managed to get a raiding team for a while, but the never got to the point of reliably beating Vale Guardian, and they never got close to taking Gorseval. They burned out. Now, I hear the new wings ease you in better… but we also had substantial turnover during the content drought after HoT (the changes non-raiders got amounted to polishing content we’d already been repeating over and over for months), and most of our original team has stopped playing. It’d take an announcement of a more accessible mode to spur us to risk trying again, whether you call it Easy or Story is semantics… but we would go for it, and other members of the guild would flock to it as well. The raiding population in the microcosm of my guild would increase exponentially.

On the other hand, I personally would play it once or twice, and then not bother again unless someone else needed help running through. The story content is the chief draw for me, and once I’d consumed it, no shiny back piece or mini that wants me to make twenty more runs is going to draw me in. I’m not the kind of audience raids should be geared towards, because I’m not going to stick around. Some of my guildmates would wander off with me, and some would stick around, depending on the rewards, but they wouldn’t play for the challenge, and I don’t believe they’d make the jump up to the hard difficulty in any significant numbers.

Sykper.6583:

So longer development between raids

Now you’re making assumptions. Perhaps… if the team remains at 5 people. However, more people enjoying raids could mean more justification to have more people working on them.

And we immediately run into the first problem. When you say group, I assume you mean the same size 10 man? That’s a barrier that has been stated time and time again by those non-raiding folks interested in the Raid lore as unacceptable right now. They want this to be soloed. If you don’t agree, you already are cutting the folks you are trying to get into this raid lore down quite a bit. But if we make it a solo instance…that’s a lot more work than just “tweaking the numbers”.

I’m thinking 10, yes, because that’s probably the simplest, and because it retains a training purpose. People might complain about having to form a group, but for content that’s not tough enough to develop a toxic culture, it’s usually not too difficult to form PUGs, particularly if you can start off with a core of people you know.

So no more than a couple times, and a little more often than Activities. For a group that’s purely interested in the lore accessibility of the encounters themselves.

There’s a lot of content that is only intended to be played a handful of times per player. Most personal story steps, for instance, especially the original personal story.
Nothing wrong with that. A couple of times per player is still a lot better than zero, particularly if it’s in a period with a relative drought of other new content (as seen during the period the original raids were being released). And some of those players might be encouraged to transition to the real thing.

Interesting that you suggest that this story-mode instance would be useful for training, that seems to supplement my thought above that you still think that this story-mode should be a 10-man. But furthermore, what’s the difference between training on the real thing and earning shards versus training on a lesser version that can’t possibly beat you and won’t give you a better picture of the real deal? I think the training would be far worse on the story-mode since it can’t accurately represent the real encounter at that low-level of ‘slightly above Living Story’.

The difference is that you actually get to practice the whole encounter. The current system doesn’t allow you to practice later phases at all until you can reliably beat the previous phases. So it can turn into a frustrating process of beating your head against a brick wall to earn the privilege of beating your head against the next brick wall behind it. Being able to practice against the whole thing gives training groups the opportunity to train against the encounter holistically, rather than being a case of one phase followed by the next.
At the very least, it means people would know what the mechanics are. Reading on the mechanics is no substitute for seeing them, even if they’re at a lower level.
(You’re drawing a lot out of “a little harder than Living Story”, I note. I picked that point as something that sets a benchmark of what most players are expected to be able to do. Personally, I’d accept “a little harder than Giganticus Lupicus before Ascended was introduced” – that was hard but it was a level of hard that managed to remain fun.)

Interest doesn’t warrant a need to create.

One could say the same thing about introducing raids into a game that was designed to break the usual MMO moulds. People asked for it, and it happened… likely at the cost of new dungeons or some other content that could have been made instead.

Sykper.6583:

I despise what they did with Bastion. They disappointed a lot of raiders who were expecting something on-par with the previous wings and instead they went softer, and made the ‘hard-mode’ a one time, no reason to repeat, deal.

That’s a problem. You’re right – there should be an incentive to play at the higher levels. However, that doesn’t mean that having lower levels that can bring more people in is a bad thing – it just means that the challenge motes were implemented poorly by making them a ‘do once for the achievement’ thing rather than giving it the GW1-style Hard Mode treatment that does reward you for repeating it if that’s your thing.

draxynnic.3719:

Now you’re making assumptions. Perhaps… if the team remains at 5 people. However, more people enjoying raids could mean more justification to have more people working on them.

I have to disagree with this. As much as I might personally want more raid development, raids aren’t supposed to be the focus of this game. They are a subset being developed on the side with Fractals. They are supposed to come less frequently than LS releases which hit the majority of players. GW2 is not going to be a raiding game.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m thinking 10, yes, because that’s probably the simplest, and because it retains a training purpose. People might complain about having to form a group, but for content that’s not tough enough to develop a toxic culture, it’s usually not too difficult to form PUGs, particularly if you can start off with a core of people you know.

I only need to point you to Explorable dungeons, or Dungeons in general for how that turned out. New players coming in a year after the story release will have a hard time making that 10-man when the time and effort isn’t worth the rewards. Hence is why they want it solo-able which technically can resolve this issue straight out…but stops story mode from becoming a training mode.

draxynnic.3719:

There’s a lot of content that is only intended to be played a handful of times per player. Most personal story steps, for instance, especially the original personal story.
Nothing wrong with that. A couple of times per player is still a lot better than zero, particularly if it’s in a period with a relative drought of other new content (as seen during the period the original raids were being released). And some of those players might be encouraged to transition to the real thing.

I’m thinking it’ll be best for all of us if maybe, just maybe Raids were left where they are, but things like Current Events (something new they are trying) kept coming out after expansion releases? So that maybe Raids aren’t the scapegoat for why content was ‘delayed’ because that’s a foolish argument to make.

draxynnic.3719:

The difference is that you actually get to practice the whole encounter. The current system doesn’t allow you to practice later phases at all until you can reliably beat the previous phases. So it can turn into a frustrating process of beating your head against a brick wall to earn the privilege of beating your head against the next brick wall behind it. Being able to practice against the whole thing gives training groups the opportunity to train against the encounter holistically, rather than being a case of one phase followed by the next.

The typical GW2 raid boss formula is something new added on a per phase basis. Doing each phase properly means the raid boss mechanics for that phase were understood, so it’ll toss something new out at you. Doing the story-mode encounter holistically doesn’t mean you’ll be able to anticipate the real deal and what it can do. Many mechanics that were trivial that you seemed to have mastered before suddenly become relevant, let’s take VG Green Circles for instance (fairly common example). Let’s pretend that doing the mechanic correctly means 0 damage for everyone, but failing to do it means everyone takes a slight hit to their health on story-mode rather than a massive nuke. In the midst of training, we got boons and all sorts of healing sources coming out, it’ll be almost impossible to know the green circle had failed, or succeeded in the story-mode. The only reason why people learn green circles in Hard-mode is because EVERYONE notices when they take 10k to the face. Thus they find the issue and fix it, the raid-mode encounter was tuned better than the story-mode for this.

(The texts walls are op)

draxynnic.3719:

At the very least, it means people would know what the mechanics are. Reading on the mechanics is no substitute for seeing them, even if they’re at a lower level.
(You’re drawing a lot out of “a little harder than Living Story”, I note. I picked that point as something that sets a benchmark of what most players are expected to be able to do. Personally, I’d accept “a little harder than Giganticus Lupicus before Ascended was introduced” – that was hard but it was a level of hard that managed to remain fun.)

I agree with your first statement that seeing mechanics visually is vastly better than someone telling out over comms or having you read. Experience helps. But it’s a whole other thing to try to emulate what each mechanic does and making an easier version of it without it giving a detrimental effect for failing to do it. Imagine a player who absolutely can’t see the blue circles, they teleport players on VG after a few seconds in a small area. Obviously the story-mode version won’t allow this mechanic to be totally threatening so said player will…be susceptible to blue circles for a long time. This person has never had to dodge them before, and after feeling confident from a lot of Story-Mode VG kills he now feels super proud and wants to do the raid-version. How do you think that’s going to play out?

And yes, I specifically mentioned the difficulty you described for a reason. Do you actually believe players are at that level? We are still getting complaints about HoT difficulty…

draxynnic.3719:

One could say the same thing about introducing raids into a game that was designed to break the usual MMO moulds. People asked for it, and it happened… likely at the cost of new dungeons or some other content that could have been made instead.

I agree, this was a direct consequence of Arenanet giving players what they wanted during the CDIs. My opinion is that dungeons didn’t give players the end-game they wanted, and GW2 had one of the most engaging combat systems in an MMO to date. They craved more, and so they went bigger, stronger, etc. Thus Raids naturally developed, and luckily Arenanet at least went with 10-man. Could you imagine the discussions we would be having if they went 25? Leave those zergs to the open-world Shatterer thanks.

draxynnic.3719:

That’s a problem. You’re right – there should be an incentive to play at the higher levels. However, that doesn’t mean that having lower levels that can bring more people in is a bad thing – it just means that the challenge motes were implemented poorly by making them a ‘do once for the achievement’ thing rather than giving it the GW1-style Hard Mode treatment that does reward you for repeating it if that’s your thing.

I just think it might be a major waste of resources and time, and could cause potential issues like I described above. I don’t think as many players will transition into the raid-mode properly, there have been raiding games that have tried this, and I’ve read and heard some fairly…scary stuff about how unprepared the ‘Easy-Mode’ raiders were for the normal difficulty. But that’s fairly subjective, I will want to say this though. Other MMOs that implement raiding often have a vertical gear check, meaning that at some point gear will give you a good edge in encounters. GW2 does not have this, it relies more on the skill of the player. I think you understand what I mean by that.

Zaklex.6308:

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

“Raids are essentially side stories, and while they may sometimes share themes with other content they are not part of the core Guild Wars 2 narrative. Because of that, we can tackle darker or more mature topics that don’t fit elsewhere in the game: failure, guilt, betrayal, and struggles for redemption.”

These topics don’t fit in living world stories?

They are side stories, they really don’t have anything to do with the core of GW2 which is the battle against elder dragons. There’s a connection to the raids and GW1, but the White Mantle, Saul and Caudecus are essentially a side story. As a GW1 veteran and long time GW1 player, I’m siding with Bobby on this one, if you really want to see the story in game…look for a cleared instance, otherwise, either read it on the wiki or watch a video…it’s essentially the same thing.

I’m fine with that, I did it for all the wings long ago.

What I don’t understand is why topics of failure, guilt or betrayal supposedly (I’m quoting Bobby) don’t fit elsewhere in the game? I mean, in the personal story you have an entire chapter based on our biggest fear.

So from what i understand the story in raids is supposed to be a side story and not important to the main story…

Then what about these Questions: How can the raid story be a side story when the LS (which i consider main story) is based on it. What about bloodstone fen and its lore pieces. We clearly have an interaction between raid stories and non raid stories. So how can they still be considered as a side story?

Muchacho.2390:

So from what i understand the story in raids is supposed to be a side story and not important to the main story…

Then what about these Questions: How can the raid story be a side story when the LS (which i consider main story) is based on it. What about bloodstone fen and its lore pieces. We clearly have an interaction between raid stories and non raid stories. So how can they still be considered as a side story?

It’s about semantics and perception. By using the phrase side story, People think they can justify the accessibility split.

Truth is, the idea is ridiculous. As you note, the entire Mursaat storyline is tied to the theme covered in the raid.

And, even if it wasn’t, do we really want a game where playing through interesting stories of any kind (main, side, whatever) is reserved for a small percentage of the playerbase? That may work in single player games where that expectation is set up front, but in GW2, they instilled the themes of accessibility and community building early on. Changing gears now just seems like as desperate play for the attention of “hardcore” raiders from other games.

Within this game, it is a recipe for disaster that does nothing but instill resentment and split the playerbase into haves and have nots (from an experiential perspective) unnecessarily.

And people can debate the numbers all they want – All I can say is that, from my perspective as the leader of a very active guild, I know first hand speaking with guildees that this shift has cost Anet in both gem sales (casual players staying but MUCH more apathetic about end game knowing part of it is forever shut to them) and future expansion sales (players leaving after becoming disillusioned with the new direction of the game).

I don’t want an easy raid mode that’s soloable. I want one that is PUGable.

Ardid.7203:

I don’t want an easy raid mode that’s soloable. I want one that is PUGable.

That is definitely part of it.

What I want most of all is a mode that doesn’t unnecessarily punish or limit people for bringing the profession/build/playstyle they most enjoy to content/story they would enjoy.

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

Zaklex.6308:

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324:

“Raids are essentially side stories, and while they may sometimes share themes with other content they are not part of the core Guild Wars 2 narrative. Because of that, we can tackle darker or more mature topics that don’t fit elsewhere in the game: failure, guilt, betrayal, and struggles for redemption.”

These topics don’t fit in living world stories?

They are side stories, they really don’t have anything to do with the core of GW2 which is the battle against elder dragons. There’s a connection to the raids and GW1, but the White Mantle, Saul and Caudecus are essentially a side story. As a GW1 veteran and long time GW1 player, I’m siding with Bobby on this one, if you really want to see the story in game…look for a cleared instance, otherwise, either read it on the wiki or watch a video…it’s essentially the same thing.

I’m fine with that, I did it for all the wings long ago.

What I don’t understand is why topics of failure, guilt or betrayal supposedly (I’m quoting Bobby) don’t fit elsewhere in the game? I mean, in the personal story you have an entire chapter based on our biggest fear.

Saul is a massive part of the story of the White Mantle, he is not a side story. He could have been used as proof of what the murssat are like to the other Mantle. Braking them. But nope. He’s a raid story. Personally I feel it was a bad move.

Saul is a side story as far as the GW2 main story is concerned. A stronger argument exists around whether the Forsaken Thicket storyline is a side story as it feeds directly into LS3.

Personally, as a non-raider, I’m fine with how ANet have been handling story in raids. No major plot elements are gated behind raids (IMO at least) and even then ANet have included the ability for players to get a lot of the lore from a cleared instance.

Astraea.6075:

Saul is a side story as far as the GW2 main story is concerned. A stronger argument exists around whether the Forsaken Thicket storyline is a side story as it feeds directly into LS3.

Personally, as a non-raider, I’m fine with how ANet have been handling story in raids. No major plot elements are gated behind raids (IMO at least) and even then ANet have included the ability for players to get a lot of the lore from a cleared instance.

Yes you can get the lore from a cleared instance. But you have to rely on someone doing it for you when you want them to.

Saul is not a side story. He is the reason the White Mantle are a thing. His fate could have been used in a great way. He could have been used to undermine everything the White Mantle stand for. But nope. Just lock it away in a raid. If ANET are going to continue with this. Then add a clear option for people to go and have a look and see the lore for them self when they want to. Not have to beg in LA for someone to open a wing for them.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Saul is not a side story. He is the reason the White Mantle are a thing. His fate could have been used in a great way. He could have been used to undermine everything the White Mantle stand for. But nope. Just lock it away in a raid.

But how much of that is relevant? The Inquest and the Flame Legion and the Sons of Svanir are also all things, but we have no idea who founded them. That doesn’t mean we’re missing out; it means that characters who (were believed to have) died before our PCs were even born aren’t part of the current conflicts. Likewise, undermining the White Mantle would be beating a dead horse at this point. They failed their big attack, and their leader is dead- they haven’t been wiped out completely, but in ANet’s style of storytelling, that still amounts to a billboard saying “We’re Setting Them Aside And Moving On!” The only faction of the group left in play is supposedly on our side.

There wasn’t room in the story to linger on the Mantle and try to undermine their theological support, not when they’re only roughly one-third of the plot ANet has to get through this season. If Saul hadn’t been relegated to the raid, he’d just have gone the same way as Malyck, gathering dust on the shelf where they put loose threads with bleak prospects.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Saul is not a side story. He is the reason the White Mantle are a thing. His fate could have been used in a great way. He could have been used to undermine everything the White Mantle stand for. But nope. Just lock it away in a raid.

But how much of that is relevant? The Inquest and the Flame Legion and the Sons of Svanir are also all things, but we have no idea who founded them. That doesn’t mean we’re missing out; it means that characters who (were believed to have) died before our PCs were even born aren’t part of the current conflicts. Likewise, undermining the White Mantle would be beating a dead horse at this point. They failed their big attack, and their leader is dead- they haven’t been wiped out completely, but in ANet’s style of storytelling, that still amounts to a billboard saying “We’re Setting Them Aside And Moving On!” The only faction of the group left in play is supposedly on our side. There wasn’t room in the story to linger on the Mantle and try to undermine their theological support. If Saul hadn’t been relegated to the raid, he’d just have gone the same way as Malyck, gathering dust on the shelf where they put loose threads with bleak prospects.

Flaim legion are a charr legion. Same as the others, but there use of magic and the fact they enslaved the other legions and had them several false gods is the reason they are out casts. Sons of svanir are Norn who think Svanir was touched by a spirit of Nature and Jormag is that spirit. No one really founded them, they just believe different to the other Norn. As for inquest I’ve not looked into them as I am not interested in Asura. All this lore is in game for you to fine. But is not on the same level as Saul. Not to mention Sual is a left over from GW1. Are ANET going to put all the plot threads they left in GW1 in Raids. Like what happened to the scepter of Orr and why Livia went looking for it and what she used it for. Depending on how that plies out with people thinking she is the Queen or Annise. But yeah they could put that in a raid and cut a part of the story out of the main plot. It would be the same as the first 3 wings being the build up to LS3. But if you did the raid you missed the start of the story, that is a fact.

My point is they’re not cutting anything out of the main plot. This is stuff that just wasn’t going to show up in the Living World anyway, because there’s no room for it without derailing an episode. If we hadn’t got raiding, nobody would’ve met Xera or heard about the White Mantle trying to resurrect Lazarus until Out of the Shadows. Nobody would’ve found out what happened to Saul, and that’s what irks me about that argument. It’s not a choice between some of the players or all of the players having access to the story. It’s a choice between some of the players or none of the players. If I have to choose between getting Livia in a raid, or just not seeing her in GW2, I’ll take the raid, any day.

I’ve gone on the record as saying that Bastion of the Penitent was a reasonable thing to have as a ‘side story’ for a raid, but I think BrotherBelial is also right here… he COULD have been more important. ArenaNet has obviously gone a different route, but imagine if, a few chapters down the track, we have to fight Lazarus… but use Saul to split the White Mantle even further beforehand? Or they could have had some twist whereby somehow it’s actually Saul who’s impersonating Lazarus? That’s obviously not in the story now, but it could have been tied in.

More generally… I don’t buy the idea that either the content is in a raid or it wouldn’t exist at all. Raids have basically been introduced because, like underwater combat and countless other ideas, ArenaNet ditched dungeons like a hot potato and moved on to something else rather than actually trying to address the problems with them and focused on raids and fractals instead. The story of the first raid could have been told through a series of dungeon paths instead, calibrated at the difficulty of Arah Explorable scaled up for the power creep since release. Bastion of the Penitent could have been a fractal. If raids hadn’t been introduced, these stories would still likely have been told, just through a different (and more accessible) medium.

@Sykper: Since you’ve expressed being tired about walls of text, I’m going to focus on what I think are your primary arguments. If you think there’s something that you think I should have put more consideration into, let me know and I’ll respond to it.

I only need to point you to Explorable dungeons, or Dungeons in general for how that turned out. New players coming in a year after the story release will have a hard time making that 10-man when the time and effort isn’t worth the rewards. Hence is why they want it solo-able which technically can resolve this issue straight out…but stops story mode from becoming a training mode.

See, back when explorable dungeons were still a reasonably lucrative option, you essentially had two groups of people. You had the people who did it for loot in the minimum time possible, which had all the potential toxicity and barriers to bringing in new people that such arrangements often have. This group has moved over to raids (note: I am not saying that everyone who does raids is in this group. Far from it). Then you have people who do it for the experience. Such people are often willing to help others out in getting through, in order to stop others from being denied the experience… even now.

However, the second group tends to be less hardcore than the first group, because, simply put, their motivations are different. It’s entirely possible to form like-minded groups to do dungeons even now if you have a guild of like-minded people. Raids… not so much, because people with that mindset are generally not the people who are willing to spend hours failing at something while chasing the carrot of having a lucrative loot-treadmill to run on once they’ve mastered that content.

The typical GW2 raid boss formula is something new added on a per phase basis. Doing each phase properly means the raid boss mechanics for that phase were understood, so it’ll toss something new out at you. Doing the story-mode encounter holistically doesn’t mean you’ll be able to anticipate the real deal and what it can do. Many mechanics that were trivial that you seemed to have mastered before suddenly become relevant, let’s take VG Green Circles for instance (fairly common example). Let’s pretend that doing the mechanic correctly means 0 damage for everyone, but failing to do it means everyone takes a slight hit to their health on story-mode rather than a massive nuke. In the midst of training, we got boons and all sorts of healing sources coming out, it’ll be almost impossible to know the green circle had failed, or succeeded in the story-mode. The only reason why people learn green circles in Hard-mode is because EVERYONE notices when they take 10k to the face. Thus they find the issue and fix it, the raid-mode encounter was tuned better than the story-mode for this.

“Story mode” doesn’t mean that you’re covered in bubblewrap and can’t lose at all. Even at the “a little harder than Living Story” level… there are people still complaining about Caudecus after it was nerfed (personally, I didn’t like having the action key window being so short it was basically a reflex and connection speed check, but other than that I thought it was fine). It just seems to be a ballpark of what ArenaNet seems to consider a reasonable assumption for a typical player (whether that assumption is correct is a side issue).

The things you’re talking about can still have the potential to be nasty enough that you will learn how to deal with them in the story mode. Continuing with using VG as an example, the green circles could certainly be left as a strong enough hit that you’re going to notice it. The blue circles would still teleport. However, maybe the damaging areas that appear in phases 3 and 5 are less punishing, so you’re more likely to be able to survive if a blue circle teleports you into the bad or if a green circle appears in the bad. Anybody using it for training would likely know that the bad is a lot nastier in the real thing, so their target in training would be to reach a point where they can reliably ensure that nobody ends up in the bad.

draxynnic.3719:

The things you’re talking about can still have the potential to be nasty enough that you will learn how to deal with them in the story mode. Continuing with using VG as an example, the green circles could certainly be left as a strong enough hit that you’re going to notice it. The blue circles would still teleport. However, maybe the damaging areas that appear in phases 3 and 5 are less punishing, so you’re more likely to be able to survive if a blue circle teleports you into the bad or if a green circle appears in the bad. Anybody using it for training would likely know that the bad is a lot nastier in the real thing, so their target in training would be to reach a point where they can reliably ensure that nobody ends up in the bad.

See this is what I’m not getting about other people’s arguments. It’s like we’re assuming that if you’re tweaking numbers it means that you have to make all skills non-impactful. There are still difficult encounters in non-raid scenarios and skills that one shot players in dungeons. The only options are not “extremely hard or extremely easy there can be no other way!!1!” There is middle ground. Green circles would still one shot you, or at least close to it, if you stand in them. Blue teleports would still function exactly the same as they currently do. The biggest number you would have to change is how difficult it is to actually kill the boss (How big a meat shield it is) and in the mean time you would barely have to nerf the amount of damage the boss does at all, or even any of the mechanics. Yes, make it a 10 man dungeon, just make it a puggable experience so that it’s still a skill check but not as much of a DPS check.

draxynnic.3719:

More generally… I don’t buy the idea that either the content is in a raid or it wouldn’t exist at all.

That’s fair. Maybe I was being too emphatic with my response last night.

My concern is that, whatever form we get additional story content in, ANet’s policy for the last two-and-a-half years has been that it won’t be the main narrative. The Story Journal model has been kept far too tightly scoped, including no more than three or so plot threads at a time and only including peripheral elements where they can directly drive one of those threads along. (Even there, the core biconics cast monopolized those roles until S3.)

If there had been space in their schedule, resources to spare, and a priority placed on incorporating Saul, I think Saul would’ve been incorporated. The fact that he wasn’t indicates that at least one of those factors was absent. With dungeons ditched, and Fractals only now receiving ‘new’ content… well, in Stein’s words, “Raids are the only place where [they] can… tie up loose threads that don’t fit in the main narrative” for the foreseeable future.

You’re right, it didn’t have to be that way, but now that it is I think it’s more realistic to ask for the existing model to be tweaked until it’s accessible (the discussion between you and Sykper). Belial’s insistence that the loose threads we care about need to be in the main story would just push off their resolution indefinitely. Perhaps there would’ve been a point years down the line when they could include Saul… or perhaps not. it’s not a gamble I’d like to take.

If according to the Dev’s themselves, raids are a way to tie loose ends not contained within the main story, then it is definitely fair to question whether or not they are accessible to the majority. After all, this is Anet’s specialty: we have loose ends that go all the way back to GW1 (e.g Wing 4 itself). There are enough of these so called “loose ends” to make GW2 a full blown raiding game while the main story goes on in parallel. It also happens to be that, some of this stuff is what actually gets players curious and thrilling about, speculating what might have been.

While I enjoy that some things remain a mystery just for the sake of it being a mystery (like the Wizard’s Tower), one could argue that GW as a whole actually has more loose ends than it has actual “begin and finish” storylines. That means raids are getting the juicy stuff, the bulk of the GW lore, regardless of some specific plot point being the main narrative.

What should we expect from raids then? The fate of the human gods? Malyck’s Tree? The Seers and Forgotten? The Scepter of Orr? All that awesome stuff and more, only for hardcore ™ players of discerning talent?

Sojourner.4621:

draxynnic.3719:

The things you’re talking about can still have the potential to be nasty enough that you will learn how to deal with them in the story mode. Continuing with using VG as an example, the green circles could certainly be left as a strong enough hit that you’re going to notice it. The blue circles would still teleport. However, maybe the damaging areas that appear in phases 3 and 5 are less punishing, so you’re more likely to be able to survive if a blue circle teleports you into the bad or if a green circle appears in the bad. Anybody using it for training would likely know that the bad is a lot nastier in the real thing, so their target in training would be to reach a point where they can reliably ensure that nobody ends up in the bad.

See this is what I’m not getting about other people’s arguments. It’s like we’re assuming that if you’re tweaking numbers it means that you have to make all skills non-impactful. There are still difficult encounters in non-raid scenarios and skills that one shot players in dungeons. The only options are not “extremely hard or extremely easy there can be no other way!!1!” There is middle ground. Green circles would still one shot you, or at least close to it, if you stand in them. Blue teleports would still function exactly the same as they currently do. The biggest number you would have to change is how difficult it is to actually kill the boss (How big a meat shield it is) and in the mean time you would barely have to nerf the amount of damage the boss does at all, or even any of the mechanics. Yes, make it a 10 man dungeon, just make it a puggable experience so that it’s still a skill check but not as much of a DPS check.

There’s a lot of gray area here, I know exactly what you want though. The issue that presents to me is that this ‘Story Mode’ has to be able to reach out to the masses if that’s the idea behind it. It has to be puggable…

But then what would change? I imagine that there would be more players doing the story-mode, however I can easily envision these story-mode groups struggling with the fights, just because they are 10-mans that have some semblance of coordination involved. I’m not 100% sure the playerbase is at a level you guys think they are, and if I am correct in my assessment there will still be a large outcry from the playerbase who just can’t do the encounters themselves as they dislike organizing 10 people, and then proceed to go down and get defeated each fight which slow down runs for already low-quality rewards…

It feels like it could easily turn into a huge waste of resources, it’ll frustrate the larger playerbase as they honestly might start going a bit more elitist in story-mode just because normal pugging won’t work, and the raiders themselves will see raid resources diverted from development.

It’s entirely likely that I am incorrect, it could be a resounding success with little losses for raiders. But I think you guys think too highly of the general playerbase’s overall skill, this idea could backfire pretty badly.

i have this idea for a very long time now, raid spectator mode should be a thing. non raiders could be able to enter the istance in spectator mode, maybe follow the pov of someone playing the same class.
anyway, while you fight bosses in the raid nothing is happening, some bosses have some dialogs, but most of the story is told by interacting with npc or collecting letters from the ground or moving from a boss to the other, so i don’t understand all this bitterness non raiders have against raid.

edit: also i believe than when people is asking for story mode is asking for a solo istance much like arah story is now. which not only makes the instance boring because every fight should be scaled down to a normal champion encounter, but lose so much meaning that they might as well go on a cleared instance and experience the story that way

I think it is fair to say that ArenaNet has been setting a bar for the level of skill required for someone to get through the story without being carried, and that bar has been steadily increasing. Hearts and Minds is mostly difficult because of bugs in the aerial phases, but the Caudecus fight has certainly set the bar up a bit.

We also had very few complaints about lore being locked behind what was then difficult content in the Arah explorable (probably where the most interesting lore was in the initial release of GW2) and other explorable dungeons.

So, I think it’s reasonable to set a ‘minimum’ difficulty for story mode raids to be the difficulty of Arah or Caudecus, compensating for party size and power creep. GW2 is still an MMO at heart, so it’s reasonable to expect there to be content that requires getting a group together, and if you can’t get through the Living Story instances, then you kinda have bigger problems than whatever you may be missing out on in raids. :o

I find myself somewhat torn in all of this. I personally really want to have the opportunity to enjoy the content that we have in the raid, which isn’t really possible having only really 5- 6 good friends in game. But at the same time I can understand the desire to not have manpower taken away from the team, requiring it to take longer to create new raids. I know that the point of this is to convince devs to change, or not change, the way that they are doing things, but this will honestly not help the situation at hand now. Maybe months from now, but by then the Lore and story available in Bastion of the Penetent will be available anywhere, there will be no more sense of discovery.

My thought is that we need to find a good raiding guild that would team up with the Lore guild to help teach and guide us through these raids. This way we can get an opportunity to experience these locations before their lore and story become obsolete. Guild Wars has been claimed to have one of the greatest game communities out there, I have to hope that there would be a raiding guild or two out there willing to help.

I would love to see an ’’Easy mode'’ or us non-raiders, just for the story’s sake because I’d love to see what’s inside of those Raids!!
Since all these super-elite pro players are only looking for exp players and ’’omg u have to have these gears or u out!11'’ and kitten like that, there’s no chance for me to enter a raid.

And I really hate you Anet for making one of my Favorite weapons, the White Mantle Collection, ONLY for Raiders!!!!

I miss the old dungeons, because there you can actually enjoy playing whatever profession, weapon type etc, you have!