Guild Wars 2

Hello Tyrians i have a theory worth listening too.

in the end cutscene we see 7 orbs, the big one in the middle and the other six surrounding it if i am right, the 7 orbs each represent one god, the six surrounding the big one are dragons, while the middle one is Tyria.

originally in gw1, we had 7 gods dwayna, balthazar, melandru, lyssa, grenth, abbadon/komir aaaaaaannd DHUUM. (many intend to forget this god).

Dwayna, god of healing and air = Tyria. (middle orb)
Balthazar, god of war and fire = Primordus. (Red ord)
Lyssa, god of illusions = Kralkatorik. (Purple orb)
Melandru, god of nature = Mordremoth. (Green orb)
Grenth, god of ice = Jormag. (White orb)
Abbadon, god of water = Deep Sea Dragon (blue orb)
And Dhuum, god of death = Zhaitan. (light green orb)

The reason for believing that Dwayna represents tyria is this.
Quotes:
“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world.”

“She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.”

Dwayna also gave birth to Grenth, which can lead to that she is older than atleast one god and proberly older than the others aswell.

Dhuum was the god of death before Grenth defeated him and ascended to a god in his place. They have similar powers (except one is evil and the other isn’t), so there wouldn’t be separate dragons representing them.

Also, what about Kormir, who took Abaddon’s place?

What about Menzies?

Also, Melandru is the eldest, atleast among the current gods. I should also note that there were gods before the current one. For example, when Balthazar came to Tyria, he was carrying the head of his father, which means that there was some serious conflict before the gods ever came to tyria, and might be what caused them to come to Tyria, and bring humans with them.

Also also, the Dragons went to sleep before the Gods came to tyria, and the gods left before the Dragons awoke. They are not linked in any way. There isn’t even evidence to support that the Gods even knew or cared that the dragons existed.

I would love it if Anet brought the Gods back into the story, and some of this hyper mythic, cosmic history, stuff, surrounding them was ever explained in fuller detail, but, trying to link them to the dragons is not the way to do it.

If there is a link between the Gods and the Dragons, then this link goes back to Tyria’s creation, back before the current Gods came to Tyria, back before the current gods even existed, back to a previous pantheon of Gods, back before the last Rise of the Elder Dragons, back to the first rise of the Elder Dragons, back to the beginning, something I don’t think will ever get explained because there is way too much time and history that we would have to go through first.

I’d quite like to hear the reason for including Dhuum in this. Grenth is the God of death and ice, he took Dhuum’s powers after he was imprisoned for being an unjust God, I believe.

Grenth is the God of Death and ice now, not Dhuum.
Or at least he was in gw1, the portals in Queensdale could mean Dhuum broke out and regained his power (Don’t qoute me on that though).

Some have already done speculation of this nature, but you got the gods off a little. For one, the reason that people ‘forget’ Dhuum is because Grenth outright usurped him, so he is no longer the god of death. (Menzies also exists, but, like Dhuum, is in some kind of godless/semi-divine state.) As for Dwayna ‘representing Tyria’, that feels a bit to me like trying to make everything fit as a divine. I think a better interpretation would be something like ‘each of the six gods is an intrinsical aspect/force of Tyria, and thus have a pseudo-symbiotic nature where either neither can exist without the other, or there they create a balance amongst themselves.’

Also, I would move Grenth to Zhaitan (since Grenth is the god of death), and Dwayna to Jormag. I’ll admit that Dwayna/Jormag isn’t the strongest of the pairing, at least in my eyes, but all the others fit pretty well, and Jormag may be a ‘Northern Wind’ type thing that pops up in multiple mythologies.

Edit: Internet went out for a bit there, appears others beat me to the punch while I waited.

Since you’re missing Menzies in that list of gods the seven gods theory is impossible since we don’t know weather Menzies is dead or not (which I think will be a plot device of a future living world season).

if you’re counting grenth, you have to count kormir. both of them were non-gods, then defeated a god and stole their power.

also, grenth is younger than the EDs. born in tyria. half god. not part of the pantheon until he kicked dhuum out of it.

sooooo… don’t try to connect him with dragons.

Here is a possible alignment based on gods, facets, dragons, and the Infinite Coil reactor. This was put together with help from my guild, but I would like to see if it holds any water here.

Lyssa – Illusions – Kralkatorrik – Chaos – Violet
Grenth – Death – Zhaitan – Darkness – Black
Kormir – Spirit – Jormag – Elements – White
Balthazar – Destruction – Primordus – Strength – Red
Melandru – Creation – Modremoth – Nature – Green
Dwayna – Existence – Bubbles – Light – Blue

shogei.8015:

Here is a possible alignment based on gods, facets, dragons, and the Infinite Coil reactor. This was put together with help from my guild, but I would like to see if it holds any water here.

Lyssa – Illusions – Kralkatorrik – Chaos – Violet
Grenth – Death – Zhaitan – Darkness – Black
Kormir – Spirit – Jormag – Elements – White
Balthazar – Destruction – Primordus – Strength – Red
Melandru – Creation – Modremoth – Nature – Green
Dwayna – Existence – Bubbles – Light – Blue

I actually did a diagram labeling the orbs and I did them similarly … Kormir felt forced as Jormag though. The white orb could be truth, but the rest are tied to elements so it seemed more logical it was ice. And if it’s ice, Grenth has ties to both death AND ice soo…

Thus I went with the dragons instead of the human gods.

Funny, I’m working on something quite similar to this …

One thing I would like to mention in regards to Dhuum and Grenth… mainly to support your claim that Grenth & Dhuum are separate entities. Do realize that Dhuum was NOT EVER killed, he was merely put in a dormant state and Grenth Ruled his realm in his place. Dhuum gained in strength with every death entering the underworld, which meant he had to be defeated time and time again.

Also worth noting is that Abaddon has always been the God of Water and that of Secrets. Now when Kormir absorbs his powers, the only thing ‘left’ is ‘secrets’ and she becomes the god of the opposite, ‘truth’. Now where did the ‘water powers go?’ …

Well Abaddon was defeated once b4, and he was cast into the Realm of Torment. Apparently he kept being the ‘God of Secrets’. But someone did gain the ‘God of Water’ powers. It was Grenth, only instead he became the god of Ice (/which is basically water) … Which I think he then used to defeat Dhuum, and take his place, and rule over the underworld. (I didn’t know he was Dwayna’s son though, the son of Dwayna and this lunatic sculpter?)

One of the constants in the Gods legends, is the absorption of powers of a previous god upon this God’s true ‘death’. Aka. Dhuum is defeated multiple times, but he keeps his power as the God of Death (he is Death – Death Eternal) that is perhaps why he can’t be truly defeated, and keeps getting stronger on every death (and entry into the Underworld). But all the other ‘Gods’ seem to have gotten their powers from a predecessor, like in the stories of mainly Abaddon, but also Balthazar & Menzies and their Father seem to have some ‘weird thing’ going on… It’s almost as if they fought (either their father) a God of ‘Fire & Shade’ and Balthazar got the Fire power (light) and Menzies drew the short stick and became a Lesser God of Shade (which then put him into ‘the shade’ of Baltazar, and Menzies fought his brother to also gain his power).

Aka. What I am getting at is that even though we see 6 (or 7) orbs, I have this feeling these ‘orbs’ represent a bound state of certain aspects of magic. I still need to leave in the middle whether this is the natural order of Magic dispersion on Tyria. But as woodenpatato mentioned in his analysis, there are various other ‘empty places’ in the enternal alchemie orb vision…

What are now ‘complete orbs’, in this day and age on Tyria. These other empty spots may hint that these orbs consist of various combined aspects of Magic. And these can even ‘mix match’ with eachother in various ‘states’ of magic, around the mists (aka. the galaxy or w/e you want to call the center). Sort of like an ‘atom’ has a core and various possible ‘energy states’ where electrons can reside.

Rainshine.5493:

shogei.8015:

Here is a possible alignment based on gods, facets, dragons, and the Infinite Coil reactor. This was put together with help from my guild, but I would like to see if it holds any water here.

Lyssa – Illusions – Kralkatorrik – Chaos – Violet
Grenth – Death – Zhaitan – Darkness – Black
Kormir – Spirit – Jormag – Elements – White
Balthazar – Destruction – Primordus – Strength – Red
Melandru – Creation – Modremoth – Nature – Green
Dwayna – Existence – Bubbles – Light – Blue

I actually did a diagram labeling the orbs and I did them similarly … Kormir felt forced as Jormag though. The white orb could be truth, but the rest are tied to elements so it seemed more logical it was ice. And if it’s ice, Grenth has ties to both death AND ice soo…

Thus I went with the dragons instead of the human gods.

Isn’t Grenth also the God of Ice?

Isn’t Lyssa also the Goddess of Water?

It seems more like you can place 2 gods with every Elder Dragon….

Kralkatorrik – Lyssa and Dwayna (remember that Glint is a champion of kralkatorrik, and that the zephyrite crystals represent different facets of air magic. Dwayna is the goddess of air. I also chose Lyssa because everyone equates the dragon with chaos (and by extension, illusions))

Jormag – Grenth, Balthazar (Grenth is the God of Ice. Balthazar seems like a god to put here, but remember that Balthazar is the God of War, Fire, and challenge, all representations of power. Jormag corrupted many Norn with promises of Power. This also cements Grenth here even more because in GW1, Necromancers worshipped Grenth because he gave them power)

Zhaitan – Grenth, Kormir (Grenth because he is the god of death, Kormir because she is the goddess of order, spirit, and truth, and there aint no greater truth than death!)

Primordus – Balthazar, Melandru (Balthazar is the god of fire, Melandru is the goddess of Earth. Primordus created his minions out of molten rock)

Bubbles – Kormir, Lyssa (Abaddon was the former god of water, and Lyssa is the current goddess of water. Kormir inherited Abaddon’s power and might still have an unseen link to water. Of course, this is if Bubbles if a dragon of water, and wasn’t just sleeping down there. He could be a flying, celestial sky dragon for all we know (in which case, these two goddesses would still fit when you look at their other aspects))

Mordremoth – Dwayna, Melandru (Dwayna is the goddess of Life, which people think Mordremoth represent. Melandru is the goddess of nature, which people also think Mordremoth represents.

Arghore.8340:

….snip…

Nope. Lyssa became the Goddess of Water after Abaddon was defeated long before the events of GW1.

Arghore.8340:

Also worth noting is that Abaddon has always been the God of Water and that of Secrets. Now when Kormir absorbs his powers, the only thing ‘left’ is ‘secrets’ and she becomes the god of the opposite, ‘truth’. Now where did the ‘water powers go?’ …

Well Abaddon was defeated once b4, and he was cast into the Realm of Torment. Apparently he kept being the ‘God of Secrets’. But someone did gain the ‘God of Water’ powers. It was Grenth, only instead he became the god of Ice (/which is basically water) … Which I think he then used to defeat Dhuum, and take his place, and rule over the underworld. (I didn’t know he was Dwayna’s son though, the son of Dwayna and this lunatic sculpter?)

“Abaddon was one of the Six Human Gods, a fallen predecessor of Kormir. His sphere was Water and Secrets, which were later absorbed by Lyssa and Kormir, respectively. He is also associated with Depths, Knowledge and Magic.”

@Chrispy, that is according to the GW2 wiki, and I think its wrong, check the GW1 wiki and Lyssa was NEVER mentioned as the god of Water. It is also ‘Grenth’ who is the mentioned patron of the water elementalists.

Also, Grenth is a mentioned to have been human, when he defeats Dhuum (or puts him ‘on ice’) he is said to become the Ruler of the underworld. But Dhuum was never the God of Ice! Which means, Grenth must have been the God of Ice prior to conquering the UW. And if he was human b4, he must have gotten the God of Ice powers from somewhere. If you check upon the old pantheon, the only logical place to gain these powers is from Abaddon, as he was the God of Water…

ps. Water in it’s liquid form currently has healing powers, which would hint more at ‘Dwayna’ gaining the power of water, and healing. And if indeed Grenth is her son, she might have granted him the power of Ice so her son would be a God like her, and not some semi-herculean mortal… (although, this might have been a reason for him to put Dhuum ‘on ice’ – if you rule over the dead, and put death on hold, you don’t have to die yourself either)

@Arghore,

I stand corrected (wiki says that she didn’t have the water aspect until after Abaddon died). If that’s the case though, this means that non of the Gods are actually gods of anything, they just represent what they represent because humans equated the gods with those aspects (much like we did in real world history). This means that Lyssa doesn’t have power over water anymore than Grenth would, just in different forms.

This will actually make it entirely pointless to compare the similar aspects of Elder Dragons to the similar Aspects of the Gods because while the dragons seem to have power over only one or two very specific aspects of nature, the Gods are a little more fluid in that regard, and could potentially have power over whatever the hell they want.

Arghore.8340:

@Chrispy, that is according to the GW2 wiki, and I think its wrong, check the GW1 wiki and Lyssa was NEVER mentioned as the god of Water. It is also ‘Grenth’ who is the mentioned patron of the water elementalists.

If you create a human in GW2 you get to choose which of the six gods is your patron. In the selection panel Lyssa is described as twin goddesses of beauty, water and illusion

Grenth was called a prince of Ice and Sorrow before fighting Dhuum…

Ice in GW does not mean water but rather Cold…..

Dwayna could have given Grenth Cold Icy Air powers to fight Dhuum.

Dwayna could be Ice and Air, Abbadon Water, Dhuum Death, Balthazar Fire, Melandru Plants and Earth and Lyssa Chaos….

Kralkatorrik is Air, Primordus is Earth, Jormag is Ice, Mordremoth is Plants, Deep Sea Dragon is Water and Zhaitan is Undeath….

None of the Elder Dragons match Lyssa before she stole Abbadon’s Water powers…….

But this is more or less what I was trying to hint at, the aspects of the magical plane can be reordered. And these orbs are just the current ‘allignment’ of most powerful combinations on the plane. The other ‘empty spots’ in the vision are the various breakdowns of how these aspects can be aligned.

In this sense it also makes sense to re-evaluate the realm of torment, each of the gods likely contributed one of the more horrible/painful sides of the magic they represent to build this prison. Which was as much intended to keep Abaddon in, but also, to keep others out…

The reason f/e of the ‘torment’ condition, could indicate that the balance of magic has shifted entirely. Abaddon is dead, the prison dispersed, and ‘Torment’ as an aspect of magic became linked to which ever magic it came from (if, in a system as this) you can even speak of a ‘side of magic it came from’, as these aspects can be mixed in all sorts of combinations, then again, Torment may well be a counter side of a specific aspect, and as such it can be assigned to a certain ‘source aspect’ (like a coin of sorts).

Part of me even wonders if Anet took the care, in the creation of their current professions, to use some sort of magic ‘table’ as to how magic is ‘devided up’ currently. F/e Water heals, so does this mean that the ‘Water’-power is currently sided up with a ‘Healing’-power? Or has it always been aligned with it? (see healing spring, with the ranger).

Sigh, well likely I’m taking this to far, and ‘game mechanics’ and ‘god/magic/power’-lore just go their separate way at certain points :P

If anything, I really like this LS episode!! only 2 instalments and it feels like a raging storm is blowing through the Lore Archives ^^

ps. Ok I didn’t know Lyssa got Water when Kormir became Truth, if it’s in the Human story then I will take that as a good enough source as anything. I do like the Ice as part of Air power though, for Grenth, unfortunately we do not know where he got it. But we can conclude that Ice is a separate aspect (even if it was once sided with air) because Jormag is clearly the Dragon of Ice…

I think those are not the gods, or the dragons.

I think those are the 6 domains of magic in the Eternal Alchemy.

Asura divide magic mainly in 3 colleges, but it looks like there’s actually 6.

Gods, spirits of the wild, and other mists entities are attuned to these domains, and other creatures attune themselves to domains when performing magic too, at different levels.

A mesmer will attune to the purple “chaos” orb to cause confusion or create a chaos field, but to fire when using a torch. And a warrior would attune themselves a bit to the blue one when using a healing skill with the banner, for example. Elementalists are a clear case of much more deep attunement.

Dragons seem to be linked to the domains beyond mere attunement, though. They have consumed so much magic to the point of nearly being indistinguishable from the magic itself. They literally bleed magic out like some cartoon character spewing water out of their ears after drinking too much. But kill the dragon, and the domain is released, and that magic freed and back into the flow in the leylines.

Too bad we don’t have 8 – one for each player class.

The Elder Dragons aren’t combinations but rather pure form of Elemental Magics….

Primordus – Fire
Jormag – Ice
Kralkatorrik – Air
Deep Sea Dragon – Water
Zhaitan – Death
Mordremoth – Plant

The central Orb represents Light……

Are we sure the voice that claims to be the Pale Tree is infact the Pale Tree and not just another Elder Dragon?

How do we know that the Sylvari aren’t unknowingly corrupted by a Light Elder Dragon passing itself off as the Pale Tree and using a random Sylvari as it’s avatar?

That would imply that Mordremoth is cutting into it’s territory as well as it’s subjects….

MithranArkanere.8957:

I think those are not the gods, or the dragons.

I think those are the 6 domains of magic in the Eternal Alchemy.

Asura divide magic mainly in 3 colleges, but it looks like there’s actually 6.

You know, each of Scarlet’s RBG teams was allegedly based on one of the colleges (AB:dynamics, MA:statics, TA:synergetics). Each was composed of two factions. 3*2 = 6. Could just be a coincidence.

The Gods
- Balthazar: Fire (&War)
- Dwayna: Life and Air
- Grenth: Ice & ’Death’* (it is unclear where Grenth, as a mortal, gained the power of Ice)
- Lyssa: Illusions (beauty)
- Melandru: Nature and Earth
- Abaddon: Secrets & Water -> Kormir: Truth & Knowledge (Water = absorbed by – Lyssa after the final defeat of Abaddon)
- Dhuum: Death, ‘dormant state’*
- Menzies: Lord of Destruction, Shadow ‘Army’.
--————————————-
Professions GW1:
- Balthazar: Command & Spear Paragons, Fire Elementalists, Scythe Dervishes, Protection & Smiting Monks, and Warriors.
- Dwayna: Air Elementalists, Divine Favor & Healing Monks, Leadership & Motivation Paragons, and Wind Dervishes.
- Grenth: Assassins, Necromancers, Ritualists, and Water Elementalists.
- Melandru: Earth Dervishes, Earth Elementalists, and Rangers.
- Lyssa: Assassins, Energy Storage Elementalists, Mysticism Dervishes, and Mesmers.
- ?Menzies?: Assassins ‘shadow magic’ ?!?
—————————————-
Champion – Dragons : power (COLOR)
- The Great Destroyer – Primordus: Fire (& Earth?) (RED, YELLOW)
- Unknown Champ – Bubbles: Water (?) (BLUE)
- Drakkar – Jormag: Ice (BLUE WHITE)
- Scarlet? – Mordremoth: Nature (LIGHT GREEN)
- Shatterer – Kralkatorrik : Chaos (?) (PURPLE/PINK)
- Tequatl – Zaithan: Undeath (GREY, DARK GREEN)
- ? – ? – CENTER (WHITE)
—————————————-
Linked to Realm of Torment ‘locations’:
- Primordus – Madness
- Bubbles – Darkness (nightfallen)
- Jormag – Secrets (?)
- Mordremoth – Pain
- Shatterer – Fear
- Zaithan – Shadow
- ??? – CENTER – Anguish (& Abaddon’s Gate)
—————————————-
Linking Torment Realms to ‘anti’-Godpowers.
(Neclecting descriptions of these realms, aka. what is locked into this realm, and thus viewing each as an ‘anti-aspect’ of the respected ‘magic’)

- Gate of Torment -> (ONLY ‘A GATE’ to the whole thing, ‘the tormented realm’.)

- Depths of Madness : bloody, fiery place -> Illusions (LYSSA), Firey place (=Baltazar), bloody (Grenth)
- Nightfallen lands: darkness, with river of souls -> Light / Fire (DWAYNA & pos. Balthazar, Grenth with Darkness & Souls)
- Domain of Secrets: earth & stone vegetation -> Truth (?ABADDON?), Vegetation (Melandru)
- Domain of Pain (physical): Leech Tunnels, river of souls -> Relief (healing – DWAYNA), Grenth ‘flesh & souls’)
- Domain of Fear : Insects -> Courage (fear = GRENTH? / anti-courage = BALTHAZAR / Insects = Melandru)
- The Shadow Nexus: Chaos -> Fire (see Balthazar/Menzies lore) (BALTHAZAR/ ?MENZIES?), (chaos = Lyssa)
- Center: Domain of Anguish -> (THIS IS PART OF Abaddon’s former Realm, Followers of Abaddon are cast here)
--————————————-
1 As can be deducted from the realms, they were truely constructed by all the gods, but they did use (apparently) the ‘structure of reality’ to construct
a prison that was to stand the test of time. Surely clever seeing as reality itself stands the test of time…

2 Linking these Domains though, does reveal one thing (in my eyes), the center ‘orb’ in the vision is an actual orb like the others. A white orb…
Seeing as all the locations in the Realm of Torment overview (where there are also orbs in the vision) relay to actual areas, even the center one.
Now true the center in the domain of Torment has some other things going on, but the only actual ‘place/place’ in there is ‘The Domain of Anguish’.
I have ‘back-filled’ the overview above with this knowledge (?), and added the center aswell…

3 Only the Depths of Madness and the Nightfallen Lands, can somewhat be related to the respected dragons, and locations on the map. But, if the white
is indeed an ‘orb’ on its own, after the green one now took the center, all the others will land in the 6 spots available, the order is anyone’s guess…
And seeing point 1., it’s entirely unclear with the realms even have anything to do with the dragons.

MithranArkanere.8957:

I think those are not the gods, or the dragons.

I think those are the 6 domains of magic in the Eternal Alchemy.

I think you are both right, and somewhat wrong. The God & Dragons are all but ‘representers’ of these domains of magic, so in a sense they ‘are’ these orbs, yet they are not.

I also think that seeing that from the center, each orb is ‘hit’ with light from the center, that the awakening order is actually the ‘cue’ for the Champion (which wakes up b4 its master), to start w/e champions do. (this was the order with Primordus.) The order of lighting up, and relation with the dragons does then make sense, the Champion of Mordremoth woke up as the 4th Champion.

Also, from the looks of it there are not 6 but 7 aspects of magic, unless it is to be viewed as ‘spectra’, where the center ‘white’ is all the magic domains combined. Similar to light in our world…

Then perhaps the location of the ‘domain of anguish’ in the center of the Realm of Torment, being an actual ‘piece’ of the realm of Abaddon. Might make sense in that the center in the ‘Vision’ is the actual world… where all the magic is just that ‘magic’.

Hope this all makes sense, also in relation to the post I made above here…

“Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

Put’s tinfoil hat on My theory is that Menzies was left in the realm of torment. With the planting of the pale tree, it provided Menzies with a link into Tyria. The dragons are the generals of the gods, whose role is to raise an army in order to destroy the pale tree to close the link. Also the dragons feeding on magic is so that they can gain power to help accomplish this goal.

We are being used by Menzies to destroy the elder dragons so that he can absorb their magic. This is seen by the orb(Zaitans) being incorporated into the light orb(the Pale Tree). Menzies needs this magic in order to create a gateway from the realm of torment into Tyria.

The Pale Tree appearing to represent light fits, as shadows only exist with the presence of light after all.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The central Orb represents Light……

The central orb represents Tyria, not light. It also bears resemblance to an Armillary Sphere

See Here

Correct me if I’m wrong: Lyssa is the Goddess of Water only in a symbolic sense, and not in a literal sense.

In GW1, water was very important in Vabbi religion because they acted as a mirror in the worship of Lyssa. There for, Lyssa is the Goddess of Water for its reflective properties, but not its actual liquid properties.

Correct me if I am wrong, though.

I came across an interesting find today while perusing the Armillary Sphere page then looking for more images to find what I believe I saw.
http://www.smphillips.8m.com/article-46.html
[img]http://www.smphillips.8m.com/images/A46fig2.JPG[/img]

I think it could quite easily be a “tree of life” diagram we saw at the center of Scarlet’s drawing, and in the eternal alchemy.

Ronin.7381:

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The central Orb represents Light……

The central orb represents Tyria, not light. It also bears resemblance to an Armillary Sphere

See Here

Starfleck.8392:

I came across an interesting find today while perusing the Armillary Sphere page then looking for more images to find what I believe I saw.
http://www.smphillips.8m.com/article-46.html
[img]http://www.smphillips.8m.com/images/A46fig2.JPG[/img]

I think it could quite easily be a “tree of life” diagram we saw at the center of Scarlet’s drawing, and in the eternal alchemy.

Then I assume that the two of you noticed that all 6 of the colored orbs had their own rings surrounding them as well (at least 2)? The sphere in the center also appeared to have stars surrounding the white light. The Eternal Alchemy is supposed to be all emcompassing and if that was what we saw then it should be showing us a lot more than just Tyria and 6 dragons, even if it was a simpler representation that we could comprehend….

The entire scene could have been a visual representation of the entire (Tyrian) solar system or even a larger universe, and the Tree that we saw could be a representation of a World Tree (Could be the Pale Tree as it seems to be connected to just about everything through Sylvari and the Dream.)

(((and this is where my theory escalates out of control!!!)))

I think what this scene was trying to show us is quite a bit higher on the cosmic scale than Mordremoth trying to corrupt Tyria. The game said that all the larger vines we have seen could be the dragon itself, which means that it is spread from the Maguuma Jungle, all the way to the Shiverpeaks, and beyond. He could even eventually reach into the Mists.

I think that whatever threat (/change/revelation/etc) that Scarlet released is on a scale that is far larger than any of us are willing to look at.

Other things to note….if your so intent on comparing the gods to the dragons, then you should read this page from the GW1 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Path_to_Revelations) which basically equates certain aspects of the gods with dragons (you also face 6 of these in the Dragon’s Lair mission). It also suggests that Anet was planning something similar to these Ley Lines for years before the living story, and that intersections of the Ley lines could be areas where you can enter the Mists.

(((That, or I’m just crazy from drinking to much caffeine tonight, I’m thinking about this way too hard, and I really need some sleep!!!)))

Every orb reflects something.

My theory:

• White orb in middle is Tyria
  - Pale Tree herself is rooted into Tyria, thus the positioning in the middle orb.

• Deeb blue orb is Deep Sea Dragon.
• Green orb is Mordremoth.
• Red orb is Primordius.
• Purple orb is Kralkatorrik.
• Black orb with faint greenish-yellow light is Zhaitan.
• Ice blue orb is Jormag.

The order which each orbiting orbs start to move is:

1. Primordus
2. Deep Sea Dragon
3. Jormag
4. Mordremoth
5. Kralkatorrik
6. Zhaitan

The orbs very likely displayed according to the order of the dragons awakening from slumber, not the date when they got up from their lairs, since races of Tyria cannot predict which one woke up from slumber, but can only write down the date on which the dragon started moving…

However the deeper nature of the dragon is quite unknown, as Ogden speculated on his book in Scarlets house on Dry Top, that the dragons might actually be part of Tyria.
Alot of info that was given in the history, Dwarves, Mursaat, Seers, Jotun and Forgotten also fought back, but were not capable of winning, only when the Seers made the Bloodstones, to seal their magic, thus becoming less important to the dragons to consume. After sealing their magic, the ancient races then hid with aid of Glint, who was released sometime before.

Another possibility about Mordremoth targeting the Zephyrites, could be that the Zephyrites grew crystals they used, from crystaline remains of Glint. Perhaps we’ll see more about it, or it’s pretty much nothing big…

Instead of trying to shoehorn the Six and the Elder Dragons together, I would be more inclined to believe that the Six got their “godliness” by taking the powers of the Elder Dragon equivalents from their previous world.

Chrispy.5641:

Other things to note….if your so intent on comparing the gods to the dragons, then you should read this page from the GW1 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Path_to_Revelations) which basically equates certain aspects of the gods with dragons (you also face 6 of these in the Dragon’s Lair mission). It also suggests that Anet was planning something similar to these Ley Lines for years before the living story, and that intersections of the Ley lines could be areas where you can enter the Mists.

For a while it was widely speculated on GWGuru that the gods merely borrowed their power which originated from the dragons. However the Dragons, as far as we can tell, have been native to Tyria and are older than the Gods themselves. I believed at one point that same mission in GW1 was meant to “hint” at something (all of Eye of The North was claimed to reference what was to happen in GW2, give ideas) but I figure a lot of ideas were scrapped.

That usually happens too. Throughout the development process, things are switched around and changed as time goes on. IE: Arah EXP were might have seen Zhaitan’s spirit but that whole portion was removed – it was based on a conscious decision.

Erukk.1408:

Instead of trying to shoehorn the Six and the Elder Dragons together, I would be more inclined to believe that the Six got their “godliness” by taking the powers of the Elder Dragon equivalents from their previous world.

Haha read my post above. Peeps on Guru thought exactly that when GW:EN first came out. That speculation has died down due to the loop hole of the Dragons being older than the god’s arrival to Tyria.

But I agree, at this point it’s grasping for answers in the wrong areas. I’ve yet to accept the relationship of the gods and EDs as a probable theory. Just as how Realm of Torment was practically shot down in this episode but people were really honing in for it. There’s a lot more left to uncover, that’s for certain.

Ronin.7381:

Haha read my post above. Peeps on Guru thought exactly that when GW:EN first came out. That speculation has died down due to the loop hole of the Dragons being older than the god’s arrival to Tyria.

Not Tyria’s Elder Dragons, but the possibly Elder Dragons, or something equivalent, from the Six’s and humans’ home world.

From both Dev quote and the Orrian Scrolls, we know something drove them away from that world and onto Tyria. If the Elder Dragons were possibly tied to their world like Tyria’s might be, and the human there drained them of their power and transferred it into a host (making a “god”) in a fight for survival, there is a good chance it might have killed that whole world. That would have forced the new “gods” and humans to evacuate that world to search for another.

One thing that could possibly give the whole Dragons and Gods are related thing credence is that there is that book in Scarlet’s Secret Room instance… I’ll post everything and bold the important part…..
(it goes without saying that there are actual ingame SPOILERS in this post. Not using spoiler tags, since no one should even be reading this thread without playing the newest release yet)
(and also, I still don’t believe there is any ‘literal’ link between gods and dragons)

• “The Nature of Dragons” by Ogden Stonehealer
• Or should I say the “Dragons of Nature”? Yes. Dragons have long been thought to be a part of Tyria as the sun, moon, land, and seas.
• No one, not even the dwarves, know how long they’ve been here. The jotun and the norn both have lingering stories passed down through the generations about the last rise of the dragons.
• Most scholars give these tales little credit, unfortunately, kitten much time has passed. It was over ten thousand years ago that the dragons last returned to their slumber.
• The very existence of these tales, however, have indicated that the dragons have awakened at least twice in history.
• Ancient documents, found now in the Durmand Priory’s collection, reveal accounts passed down by other races such as the powerful seers and even the Human Gods themselves. (end) (also, screenshot of this last part to show its in game for those who haven’t read it)

This means that the Gods did, in fact know about the elder dragons (I originally thought that they didn’t, but sources are starting to say that they did), which makes me wonder about some past events, such as the war between Abaddon and the rest of the gods over most of the world’s magic being sealed in the bloodstones. And if the Gods knew about the dragons, and the dragons most certainly were a threat to the gods, why did Abaddon give all the races of Tyria magic? Did the Gods break apart the original bloodstone only because of all the bloody wars Abaddon indirectly caused, or could the reason be related to the Dragons? And also, what about the bloodstones? And does this indirectly lead back to the Realm of Torment? Do this stuff fit into this at all….(Gah!!!! Too many questions, not enough time in the day to find answers!!!)

@Chrispy, yes, there is A LOT going on all of a sudden, it’s as if our critique on the series deviating to much from the original story has spurred Anet to go all out to prove they haven’t.

There are various things all happening at once, so much so that it is hard to un-raffle what belongs where. The destination of the vines, the whole vision, the dragon awakening, the effects of defeating Zaithan (possibly), the Zepherites fate, The locket and the Royal Bloodline of King Doric (in which case you might also have to view the assault on the queen by scarlet in a whole different light).

Anyways, in regards to the ‘bloodstones’ and ‘the Dragons’ : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/The-bloodstones-related-to-LS2/first#content
I un-raffled a possible ‘Dragon Concentration’ around the Bloodstone Caves, and (personally discovered, aka. I hadn’t yet realized) the actual entrance to this ‘dungeon’ is still in the game. Personally I think the locket is tied into this, through the ‘blood’(line) of king Doric and the Seal on Magic and the bloodstones with that same ‘blood’.

As far as God = Dragons goes, well a few things are worth noting:
- We do not know if ‘the Gods’ were already actual Gods when they entered Tyria.
- A party size was 8 in GW1.
- The pantheon strikes me a lot as a ‘Hero Band’
- It would not have been the ‘last’ time that a hero group falls apart, aka. Destinies Edge sort of did, So maybe the group that first entered Tyria (to then become the Gods) also did. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely…

So history may have gone more like:
- A group of heroes from another location in ‘the mists’ find a pathway to Tyria (which by all means is just another location (or time) in the mists).
- They find themselves in a Dragon torn land, and defeat these dragons, through this they attain/absorb the Dragons Powers. OR, they defeat those entities that hold these powers b4 them (the old races that defeated the dragons).
- They return to where ever the Humans came from, as heroes and ‘Gods’, but likely transferring that huge amount of Magic through the Mists disturbs the plane of the Humans. So in an effort to safe humanity the group of heroes do what is now their only option, return to where they attained their magic, and take humanity with them.
- Quarrel then arises over whether or not the Magic should be shared with all humans, Abaddon surely thinks so, the other ‘gods’ not so much… the rest is somewhat ‘known’ history…

With this in mind one could see an 8 group party form up:
- Dwayna
- Baltazar
- Menzies
- Dhuum
- Lyss
- Ilsa
- Melandru
- Abaddon

The ‘Destinies Edge’ of a time long forgotten, the first of ‘humans’ to arrive on Tyria, slayers of Gods (or Dragons), Assurpers of Power. In essence the demise of the Human world and the saviour of mankind by leading them to Tyria…

Now through various Absorptions of God Powers, we can deduct that these aspects of magic come in various sub-aspects. And combinations can thus differ (in this regard I already hinted at the vision displaying some sort of breakdown of the orbs in different ‘levels’). This is more then likely why we can not link all the Gods to one orb. These orbs are simply not a 1 on 1 translation of magic, to that of the Gods.

Quite possibly the Dragons are some form of a ‘reset’ mechanism, where the dissipation and chaos created by the mingling of magic is ‘reset’ into the 6 (or 7 – I will leave this open) aspects, as they relate to these Dragons. Do realise though that if this is a natural order, then after the Dragons there will be another ‘order’ a re-shake of the magical plane. Into the order of ‘that’ specific time and breakdown of magic. In this sense one might wonder if the action of anyone (even the gods and their quarrels, replacements and absorptions) are nothing but the playing out of the Natural Order.

Which ultimately leads to a sort of deterministic world view. Which, by all means, seems to be exactly the kind of struggle that Scarlet is wrestling with, and seems to be a large factor in her actions. There is even a quote from her saying something like: ‘I refuse to accept ’the deterministic vision’, I will take the actions I deem needed regardless of the consequences, to make a mark upon this world when all the dust has settled’ …

Though with some sort of ‘corruption’ mixed in, she might have seen her actions as the only ‘free road’ left to take (or as the road to freedom of choice and action), while in fact from that point onwards she was taking the actions that were dictated to unfold in a deterministic world. ‘Do not go against ’the dream’, we all have a part to play’…

Deeeeep stuff !

I do agree that there had to be some sort of conflict before the gods came to Tyria. The whole reason why Dwayna came to Tyria and brought humans with her was to lead the humans to peace, and paradise. I should also note that the gods weren’t even in agreement over how much control humans should have over Tyria. Balthazar wanted to defeat the already existing races and give Tyria to humans. Melandru wanted peace between everyone. Balthazar probably spent most of his time leading humans in battle fighting everything in sight while Melandru was fixing all the destruction that was caused…..yeah, some paradise. Lets also not forget that when Arah was built, Lyssa was living among the humans, but was commanded by one or more of the other gods to join them in Arah. Lets also not forget about Grenth.

Using the timeline, that was in 205 BE (Cantha places that time a few hundred years before). barely 200 years later, humans spread all over Tyria, drove the Char out of Ascalon, and Abaddon gave magic to the races of tyria. Somewhere during this time, Grenth was born, rose to power, kicked Dhuum out and took his power, and took over the Underworld. Also, barely a few years later, Abaddon was defeated and imprisoned in the Realm of Torment, the Bloodstone was broken apart, most magic was resealed inside of them, and the Gods left Tyria forever.

There’s a lot of stuff happening that we’ll never know about, but basically, I’m saying that there wasn’t just disagreement between Abaddon and everyone else, or Dhuum and everyone else. Every god seemed to be in disagreement with each other over some very fundamental issues (such as humans ruling over all of Tyria or living in peace with who lived there already)(such as human gods living among humans or not)(etc.)

I haven’t even gotten to how the dragons could fit into all of that yet if they even do, or how the Bloodstones and the huge amount of magic plays into this. There’s already too much going on between the gods themselves. Too much stuff gets thrown into play once you go back to that time period.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Every orb reflects something.

My theory:

• White orb in middle is Tyria
  - Pale Tree herself is rooted into Tyria, thus the positioning in the middle orb.

• Deeb blue orb is Deep Sea Dragon.
• Green orb is Mordremoth.
• Red orb is Primordius.
• Purple orb is Kralkatorrik.
• Black orb with faint greenish-yellow light is Zhaitan.
• Ice blue orb is Jormag.

The order which each orbiting orbs start to move is:

1. Primordus
2. Deep Sea Dragon
3. Jormag
4. Mordremoth
5. Kralkatorrik
6. Zhaitan

The orbs very likely displayed according to the order of the dragons awakening from slumber, not the date when they got up from their lairs, since races of Tyria cannot predict which one woke up from slumber, but can only write down the date on which the dragon started moving…

However the deeper nature of the dragon is quite unknown, as Ogden speculated on his book in Scarlets house on Dry Top, that the dragons might actually be part of Tyria.
Alot of info that was given in the history, Dwarves, Mursaat, Seers, Jotun and Forgotten also fought back, but were not capable of winning, only when the Seers made the Bloodstones, to seal their magic, thus becoming less important to the dragons to consume. After sealing their magic, the ancient races then hid with aid of Glint, who was released sometime before.

Another possibility about Mordremoth targeting the Zephyrites, could be that the Zephyrites grew crystals they used, from crystaline remains of Glint. Perhaps we’ll see more about it, or it’s pretty much nothing big…

sorry! wrong.

zhaitan rose orr from the bottom of the ocean more than a hundred years before kralkatorrik, who was sleeping right there in front of everyone, on the surface, arose. both events had eyewitnesses, so we know for a fact that zhaitan was wide awake well before we even knew that weird mountain was kralkatorrik.

zhaitan awoke before kralkatorrik, and there’s absolutely no way to spin that fact around.

@BrunoBRS, ill write this down one last time… unless, the orbs are not the dragons but the time their respected Champions awoke, just like how ‘we’ as players postpone the rise of Primordus by Killing it’s Champion. And we do not know why exactly these champions arise first, and why they seem to some power to corrupt.

So, if the order each orb lights up is correct, and corresponds with some ‘domain’ of magic being activated, which in turn wakes up a Champion, who then starts to amass an army (which we do know is used to collect magic → so it may be assumed their job is to collect enough magic in one place to awaken a Dragon by stirring his appetite) … THEN, it is quite possible that Zhaitans Champ was the last to awake, but among one of the first to actually complete his mission and thus give his master a head start…

Now if we look at the events surrounding scarlet, then in essence it is safe to say that Mordremoth too is awoken by a jolt (feedback) of energy, coming from a ley line he fell asleep on. His Champion (who/what) ever that is (it may have even been scarlet, in a sense), apparently took a rather long time to wake him up. If that champ was intended to be the Pale Tree, then it apparently got a case of ‘The Glint’ in some way or fashion. And it would explain why their powers are so similar…

Now seeing that there is (/are) other pale tree(s), at least one, it would be interesting to see what is going on there. They mentioned nothing about the dream, so the birth of the Pale tree (or rather the first time it fruited), might have been the time code for of that forth jolt, that supposedly represents Mordremoth. It just took Mordremoth (aka. his champ, which might have been that second tree) a really long time to both produce fruit, and have it gather magic… Actually, if Scarlet hadn’t intervened he might not have woken up for quite some time…

Arghore.8340:

@BrunoBRS, ill write this down one last time… unless, the orbs are not the dragons but the time their respected Champions awoke, just like how ‘we’ as players postpone the rise of Primordus by Killing it’s Champion. And we do not know why exactly these champions arise first, and why they seem to some power to corrupt.

So, if the order each orb lights up is correct, and corresponds with some ‘domain’ of magic being activated, which in turn wakes up a Champion, who then starts to amass an army (which we do know is used to collect magic -> so it may be assumed their job is to collect enough magic in one place to awaken a Dragon by stirring his appetite) … THEN, it is quite possible that Zhaitans Champ was the last to awake, but among one of the first to actually complete his mission and thus give his master a head start…

Now if we look at the events surrounding scarlet, then in essence it is safe to say that Mordremoth too is awoken by a jolt (feedback) of energy, coming from a ley line he fell asleep on. His Champion (who/what) ever that is (it may have even been scarlet, in a sense), apparently took a rather long time to wake him up. If that champ was intended to be the Pale Tree, then it apparently got a case of ‘The Glint’ in some way or fashion. And it would explain why their powers are so similar…

Now seeing that there is (/are) other pale tree(s), at least one, it would be interesting to see what is going on there. They mentioned nothing about the dream, so the birth of the Pale tree (or rather the first time it fruited), might have been the time code for of that forth jolt, that supposedly represents Mordremoth. It just took Mordremoth (aka. his champ, which might have been that second tree) a really long time to both produce fruit, and have it gather magic… Actually, if Scarlet hadn’t intervened he might not have woken up for quite some time…

again, wrong. kralkatorrik had absolutely no presence until he awoke. unless you count glint, in which case he should’ve been the first orb.

but then again, i could just point you to your in-game story journal that says the orbs represent the dragons, not “their champions”.

In which case I would like to point out that the story journal is written from the perspective of the Character, or rather, what Anet thinks your character thinks based upon what has transpired. And I do not need Anet to think for me, I can think for myself … aka. the story characters might find out it’s something completely different in LS2-part3.

Taimy: ‘Well now that I have seen the vision myself I don’t think the orbs are the dragons’
all: ‘What NO!, Taimy! We… grbml!
Taimy: ’Cool down, can’t you see I’m fine, besides, the boss was ok, so why shouldn’t I be’
we: ‘ok then, spill it out, what do you think?’
Taimy: ‘I think these orbs, represent the colors of Disco… and Mordremoth is telling us it’s time to /dance
Taimy: DANCE YOU FOOLS! While vines sprout from Taimy’s hips, wrap around her legs, and she rises in the air and Manically laughs "I Wont need Scrubby anymore!! Mhuahahahaha… Now didn’t I tell you to DANCE !!!

Obviously with some artistic freedom at the end there, but you get my gist, I am sure… At which point your story journal will tell you the orbs are actually colored disco balls, and Mordremoth is the lord of the dance!

Erukk.1408:

Instead of trying to shoehorn the Six and the Elder Dragons together, I would be more inclined to believe that the Six got their “godliness” by taking the powers of the Elder Dragon equivalents from their previous world.

Fleeing a dying world, kind of like superman?

Arghore.8340:

In which case I would like to point out that the story journal is written from the perspective of the Character, or rather, what Anet thinks your character thinks based upon what has transpired. And I do not need Anet to think for me, I can think for myself … aka. the story characters might find out it’s something completely different in LS2-part3.

Taimy: ‘Well now that I have seen the vision myself I don’t think the orbs are the dragons’
all: ‘What NO!, Taimy! We… grbml!
Taimy: ’Cool down, can’t you see I’m fine, besides, the boss was ok, so why shouldn’t I be’
we: ‘ok then, spill it out, what do you think?’
Taimy: ‘I think these orbs, represent the colors of Disco… and Mordremoth is telling us it’s time to /dance
Taimy: DANCE YOU FOOLS! While vines sprout from Taimy’s hips, wrap around her legs, and she rises in the air and Manically laughs "I Wont need Scrubby anymore!! Mhuahahahaha… Now didn’t I tell you to DANCE !!!

Obviously with some artistic freedom at the end there, but you get my gist, I am sure… At which point your story journal will tell you the orbs are actually colored disco balls, and Mordremoth is the lord of the dance!

“the perspective of the character” is the only information we have, and until proven wrong, it stands true. that’s how it works. considering he was the one actually seeing it, and that one of the kitten things roared at us, i see no reason to doubt it.

oh and even if it was proven false, it doesn’t change the fact that kralkatorrik awakened after zhaitan, and there was absolutely ZERO branded activity before that. so the theory doesn’t hold water.

seriously, if your theory requires this amount of mental gymnastics to kinda sorta make a bit of sense but not really be relevant to the story… you might want to revise it.

my perspective remains that the order of the orbs moving has nothing to do with lore and everything to do with “the artists had to make a pretty cutscene that still clearly showed us six orbs”, so they couldn’t start out moving, and they couldn’t all move at the same time (it would look odd).

BrunoBRS.5178:

zhaitan awoke before kralkatorrik, and there’s absolutely no way to spin that fact around.

This is true. There was a lot of suspicion over Risen activity and how Lions Guard knew there was activity but the whole point of the Personal Story was that suddenly Risen Activity approached the shores of Tyria and began spreading.

Suchface.3265:

Dwayna, god of healing and air = Tyria. (middle orb)

Why would Dwayna represent Tyria? The Gods made Tyria together.

Suchface.3265:

Balthazar, god of war and fire = Primordus. (Red ord)

Primordus represents fire and destruction.

Suchface.3265:

Lyssa, god of illusions = Kralkatorik. (Purple orb)

She is also the goddess of beauty and the arts. While Kralkatorrik is lightning and crystals, and has nothing to do with illusions.

Suchface.3265:

Melandru, god of nature = Mordremoth. (Green orb)

Mordremoth currently seems to represent not just nature, but corruption and invasive weeds.

Suchface.3265:

Grenth, god of ice = Jormag. (White orb)

Grenth is also the god of death and necromancy, which arguably is Zhaitan’s terrain as well. Jormag has nothing to do with half of what Grenth represents. In fact, Grenth replaced Dhuum, who had no connection to ice at all.

Suchface.3265:

Abbadon, god of water = Deep Sea Dragon (blue orb)

Abaddon mostly represents secrets, which has no link to the DSD. And isn’t ice basicaly just water as well?

Suchface.3265:

And Dhuum, god of death = Zhaitan. (light green orb)

Zhaitan mostly represents unlife.

“Dhuum ruled from his tower in the Underworld, and tolerated neither resurrections nor the existence of the undead, and he hunted down all those who escaped death, having promised death undeniable.”

Yeah, that throws a bit of a wrench into that theory does it not?

Suchface.3265:

The reason for believing that Dwayna represents tyria is this.
Quotes:
“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world.”

“She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.”

Dwayna also gave birth to Grenth, which can lead to that she is older than atleast one god and proberly older than the others aswell.

Or to quote something much more important:

“It was almost three thousand years ago that a race
of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil
of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved
upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate
culture. They had been summoned by the old gods,
brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task:
shepherd the other creatures of the land through this
time of transition, while the gods continued to create the
world around them.”

The Gods made Tyria together. Not a single one of them represents Tyria as a whole.

@BrunoBRS, apparently you didn’t quite follow my post of the order in which dragons awoke, and then looked at who did what, when… The brand, that is kralkatorriks doing, I fully agree. And I also agree that kralkatorrik as the major dragon awoke after Zhaitan (atleast, I take your word for it )… but, if the order of awakening is the same as with Primordus. And there is reason to believe it did… then based upon the orbs order of glowing, we can deduct that ‘the Shatterer’ awoke b4 ‘Tequatl’ did.

And seeing the Shatterer is a flying entity, we have NO evidence to say he did or did not come from someplace else, that we have no idea of, and no sources for… Now why did Teq. manage to awaken Zhaitan b4 the Shatterer managed to Awaken Kralkatorrik. Again we don’t know, we have no information that tells us ‘why’ the champs awake b4 their masters. But we do (at least in one instance, and based upon the order of the orbs glowing, and the possible relation with the 4th orb and Mordi, we might deduct from that a similar awakening order) have sources that tell us that it IS the likely order of the awakening process. And defeating a Champ CAN postpone the awakening of the Dragon himself.

And when viewed from this angle, the whole thing makes sense! The order of the ‘glowing’ of the orbs only has to do with the ‘stirring’ of the powers of these Dragons (not them awakening), and the order of Awakening is determined by the actions of the Champ!

I do not have to go to a stretch, as this is based upon the whole plot line of EotN, and it also explains perfectly why the purple sphere lights up b4 the grey one, while at the same time then hint at the likely reason why it was still Zhaitan that awoke b4 Kralkatorrik did. And more over, it also explains and supports, why it is Mordi’s orb to start glowing as forth, but is only now awakening (due to the actions of Scarlet I might add).

And as this all lines up, and is supported by the whole EotN chapter (and arguably by the awakening of all the dragons as we know by sources and as we relay these to the orb’s orders) all I have to do is (for the time being) is put aside the link my character makes with what the orbs represent.

In a sense I would even go as far as to argue that the vision we see now, could have been seen prior to all of the other Dragons awakening, only then with ‘them’ hitting the center. But seeing we do not yet know what the ‘hitting the center’ actually means, I will put that ‘on hold’ for now.

I hope the actual order in which I meant events to unfold is now more clear to you, it even takes your statement about kralkatorrik into consideration and explains exactly why the order of the orbs lighting up, is different from the order the Dragons wake up.

Arghore.8340:

@BrunoBRS, apparently you didn’t quite follow my post of the order in which dragons awoke, and then looked at who did what, when… The brand, that is kralkatorriks doing, I fully agree. And I also agree that kralkatorrik as the major dragon awoke after Zhaitan (atleast, I take your word for it )… but, if the order of awakening is the same as with Primordus. And there is reason to believe it did… then based upon the orbs order of glowing, we can deduct that ‘the Shatterer’ awoke b4 ‘Tequatl’ did.

And seeing the Shatterer is a flying entity, we have NO evidence to say he did or did not come from someplace else, that we have no idea of, and no sources for… Now why did Teq. manage to awaken Zhaitan b4 the Shatterer managed to Awaken Kralkatorrik. Again we don’t know, we have no information that tells us ‘why’ the champs awake b4 their masters. But we do (at least in one instance, and based upon the order of the orbs glowing, and the possible relation with the 4th orb and Mordi, we might deduct from that a similar awakening order) have sources that tell us that it IS the likely order of the awakening process. And defeating a Champ CAN postpone the awakening of the Dragon himself.

And when viewed from this angle, the whole thing makes sense! The order of the ‘glowing’ of the orbs only has to do with the ‘stirring’ of the powers of these Dragons (not them awakening), and the order of Awakening is determined by the actions of the Champ!

I do not have to go to a stretch, as this is based upon the whole plot line of EotN, and it also explains perfectly why the purple sphere lights up b4 the grey one, while at the same time then hint at the likely reason why it was still Zhaitan that awoke b4 Kralkatorrik did. And more over, it also explains and supports, why it is Mordi’s orb to start glowing as forth, but is only now awakening (due to the actions of Scarlet I might add).

And as this all lines up, and is supported by the whole EotN chapter (and arguably by the awakening of all the dragons as we know by sources and as we relay these to the orb’s orders) all I have to do is (for the time being) is put aside the link my character makes with what the orbs represent.

In a sense I would even go as far as to argue that the vision we see now, could have been seen prior to all of the other Dragons awakening, only then with ‘them’ hitting the center. But seeing we do not yet know what the ‘hitting the center’ actually means, I will put that ‘on hold’ for now.

I hope the actual order in which I meant events to unfold is now more clear to you, it even takes your statement about kralkatorrik into consideration and explains exactly why the order of the orbs lighting up, is different from the order the Dragons wake up.

Glint. a champion of kralkatorrik that has been around since before we even knew elder dragons were a thing. AND you forget that tequatl is far from the only champion of zhaitan. cobiah marriner was killing one mere years after his awakening, and edge of destiny was killing another one a few months before kralkatorrik awoke.

the shatterer is a byproduct of the brand. the shatterer requires the brand to exist. the shatterer did NOT exist before kralkatorrik awoke.

but let’s say we ignore all the lore, all the facts, all the estabilished things that disprove your theory, because you really, really want it to be true. what does it achieve? what importance can the order of the “stirring of the champions” possibly have? with the exception of glint and the great destroyer, none of the elder dragon champions so far have had any relevance to the plot, and with the exception of glint, they’ve all been disposable and replaceable (there’s a freaking army of tequatl clones flying through orr).

i’m sorry if i’m sounding rude, but your theory, which is just plain wrong from a factual perspective, achieves nothing. even when you disregard estabilished lore and distort information to come up with a convoluted pile of excuses to make it work, it serves no purpose for the lore and history of the game, because the dragon champions are only as important as the mess they make. no one cares if the shatterer had been flying around away from society for decades (even if it’s impossible for him to do so), they care about the great destroyer because he was actively making a mess. that’s why he’s a dragon champion people remember even before the dragon awoke.

BrunoBRS.5178:

but let’s say we ignore all the lore, all the facts, all the estabilished things that disprove your theory, because you really, really want it to be true. what does it achieve? what importance can the order of the “stirring of the champions” possibly have? with the exception of glint and the great destroyer, none of the elder dragon champions so far have had any relevance to the plot, and with the exception of glint, they’ve all been disposable and replaceable (there’s a freaking army of tequatl clones flying through orr).

I know that you are neck deep in an argument, arguing over the finer points of speculation….., but your statements aren’t entirely true. There is atleast one other Dragon champion we know of that was active 250 years ago in Cantha. Kuunavang was very important to the plot in Factions. And even though Drakar was frozen in a lake, he was influencing several characters on Tyria, which could mean that he too was active in a way.

That’s 4 of 6 champions that we know of that were active before their masters woke up. Either way, the order would still be wrong, because the blue(or white) and purple orbs should have lit up first if this was the case.