Guild Wars 2

Braham Eirsson should be correctly named Braham Borjeson. This is how the Icelandic naming works – the second name is derived from fathers name. Women are also named after father, but with extension dóttir (daughter). In this case it should be Borjedóttir (daughter of Borje).

Also since Eir did not show any interest in her child, and he himself did not knew who his mother was, until he was seven, there is no real reason to name Braham after his mother.

If Braham had to be named after his mother, he should be put into different culture. Spanish Roma use their mother name as the second name, for example Paco de Lucia means Paco, son of Lucia.

It’s ArenaNet’s choice how they want to name their characters, not out-of-game cultures.

No, this is just wrong. It is like they decided to use russian style naming, and made Braham like Braham Eirowich Egalkin. The same mistake.

Interesting thought… Not sure what to make of it this. He may be onto something.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Norn

“Names

Most norn follow a Northern European or Viking-style first name system, though some like the famous explorer Captain Romke and his crew have Dutch and Frisian names.

Their surnames can vary in a multitude of styles. Norn without any achievements or legends have surnames after one of their parents (father/mother’s first name followed by -sson or -dottir or a variant thereof); this is most commonly seen in children, and they’re named after the more famous of their parents even if they do not like said parent (e.g., Braham Eirsson). Surnames do not get adopted from generation to generation and they can be changed by the individual to fit their own personal legend (e.g., a famous Wolfborn member took the surname Wolfsdottir); married couples may not always share surnames either (though some may, e.g., Knut and Gaerta Whitebear). Some norn may also take titles instead of a surname if it fits them and their legend more (e.g., Borje the Sun Chaser)."

In short, Norn are more egalitarian than the RL culture they are partially based on, and care not for such petty distinctions as gender.

His mother is a legend. His father is basically an unknown nobody (when comparing to other Norn), thus it is rather logical that he would use the name of his legendary mother rather than his father.

Norn != Real world people. Thus applying real world naming convention to prove that it is wrong makes no sense whatsoever.

Fext.3614:

No, this is just wrong. It is like they decided to use russian style naming, and made Braham like Braham Eirowich Egalkin. The same mistake.

Your mistake is that you don’t understand the culture of the Norn in the game.

Norn are all about fame and creating legends. Eir, as a member of Destiny’s Edge, is a far more famous individual than Borje, who was basically a stay-at-home dad. So Braham is Braham Eirsson.

Sure, the Norse might have different naming conventions in our real world, but they also don’t fight evil plant dragons bent on consuming the world’s magic. Why haven’t you made a topic about how unrealistic all that magic is?

lordkrall.7241:

His mother is a legend. His father is basically an unknown nobody (when comparing to other Norn)

No, you are wrong. The “legend” is not really his mother, since she did not care about her biological child at all. OTOH the “nobody” is his caring PARENT who did trade a career and glory for his child happiness, and that is SOMETHING. Because a good and loving parent is something way more valuable than a skilled slayer (and from the dps point of view Eir sucks even as a slayer).

If the game wants to teach us the opposite point of view, it is bad.

You clearly have no clue about Norn culture. Norn are not human. You can’t apply human values to them.

lordkrall.7241:

You clearly have no clue about Norn culture. Norn are not human. You can’t apply human values to them.

Every specimen which needs to protect and raise their young, who cannot care about themselves until some age, works the same way: either you protect and love your children, or the children (and your genes) die. Therefore, every culture wich is OK from evolutional point of view values highly these parents who care for their children.
Just face it, Eir is a selfish piece of crap. And Brahams dad is the true hero.

Fext.3614:

lordkrall.7241:

You clearly have no clue about Norn culture. Norn are not human. You can’t apply human values to them.

Every specimen which needs to protect and raise their young, who cannot care about themselves until some age, works the same way: either you protect and love your children, or the children (and your genes) die. Therefore, every culture wich is OK from evolutional point of view values highly these parents who care for their children.
Just face it, Eir is a selfish piece of crap. And Brahams dad is the true hero.

. . . sure, let’s go with that.

I actually agree, that his name should be different. First of all he pretty much hated his mother before living story. I might be wrong, but in first season, he states that he “don’t take after his mother”, or something along those lines. That line of dialog would make sense, if he wasn’t named after her so I always thought, that it was writers intention to name him differently. They changed this along the lines for simplicity sake.
About Eir’s legend being greater than Borje’s is true now, but when Braham was born father was the famous one. She just left them.
Moreover, after wiki “he grew up not knowing who his mother was until his father died”. How he could be named after Eir if he did’t know even her name?
I vote Braham Borjesson.

Just because he didn’t know his mother doesn’t mean the father didn’t or the rest of the culture. I mean look at how many people are named after their dead grandparents, just because u didn’t know them doesn’t mean you cannot be named after them.

Even Eir admits how bad of a mother she was, but because we are not Braham how can we tell what his name should be? Maybe he has kept the name due to his fathers request, or maybe he wants to try and show he will be a better legend than his mother and by using her name he has a way to show I’ve become better. As for him not liking her and still keeping her name again goes with back story that we don’t really know.

And really who is to say that his name will stay that, he has yet to achieve something great, after that he may take a new name.

Braham probably didn’t take up the “Eirson” name until after he left Cragstead, learning about his mother. Being part of Destiny’s Edge makes her a bigger legend; while his father’s duty is no less important, how many people actually remember his name? On that same token, everyone knows of Eir and at least some of her legend. By norn tradition, he takes her name. Or maybe it’s just a cruel reminder to his mother of how she abandoned him.

You can argue all you want, Fext, about what norse naming convention is (which is sexist while the norn are more equal opportunist), but the long and short of it is he can call himself whatever the cat he wants to. Unless Eir is somehow NOT her son (and she has admitted as much, many times), it’s not the wrong name.

You really hate the iconic characters, Fext…

Let me put this in a real world context. I was adopted at birth, under the name of an abusive, drug-addicted man, who never once even picked me up and held me. I’m now 31 and on my 3rd “father”. I should, by your logic, carry my adoptive mother’s name, right? Or perhaps my biological mother’s, as she decided to give me up to protect me from her life of a 15 year old unwed living an impoverished life?

Wrong. To this day I carry that original surname, as the legal fees and court battle do not justify the need for change.

Norn are different. Their names, in lore, are malleable. They have the option to change their names based on noteworthy accomplishments, or have names assigned to them by the community by legacy or act. Braham is named Eirsson because of his famous mother. Period. Were she not famous, he might not even have a surname. By now, I’d say he has earned a name by his exploits, but Vinebane sounds silly.

Furthermore, your argument about his father being a hero as a protector holds no merit to norn. Lore-wise, norn care little for protection, familial or otherwise; play 5 seconds of GW1 EotN and you’ll learn this kitten quick. Norn would relegate an eternal legend to a child that died rearing itself, and ignore one raised by its parents yet did nothing of note.

You’re placing personal, skewed views on a fantasy world, without the consideration that they hold absolutely no bearing. Learn to live in the fantasy instead of turning it in to reality.

… When Braham and Rox finally consummate… Will his name be Braham Katzelieber?

I also found this kind of odd, at the current point in the story it makes some sense for him to be Eirsson, having been reconciled with his mother and all.

I know that the norn are not exactly the same as historical cultures they are based on but it seems to me like the Norn wouldn’t have a lot of written official texts like laws and name documents so they would be likely to have naming customs rather than rules leaving Braham free to pick the name from the parent he actually liked. (I know I’m pretty much guessing at Norn culture here and may very well be wrong.)

Also the name you know a person by is usually the one that person has given you so if Braham would have prefered not to be associated with his mother he could easily have introduced himself with a patronymic rather than a matronymic and it should take quite a while before anyone would notice that’s not the name he would traditionally use (until he’d tell someone who his mother is or until you’d meet someone who knows who his mother is and tells you).

So I’d guess either Braham chose to use his mother’s name even though he didn’t like her (for whatever reason, maybe he did like the prestige associated with it (although this would imply that there are few enough Norn for Eir to be a rare name)) or the writers messed up.

Also, related but somewhat off-topic, there doesn’t seem to be any consistency to whether it’s -son and -dottir or -sson and -sdottir.

Etienne.3049:

Also, related but somewhat off-topic, there doesn’t seem to be any consistency to whether it’s -son and -dottir or -sson and -sdottir.

Probably about how it sounds when spoken.

Etienne.3049:

I know that the norn are not exactly the same as historical cultures they are based on but it seems to me like the Norn wouldn’t have a lot of written official texts like laws and name documents so they would be likely to have naming customs rather than rules leaving Braham free to pick the name from the parent he actually liked. (I know I’m pretty much guessing at Norn culture here and may very well be wrong.)

Most likely he just wasn’t famous enough himself to make others use a different name. He could claim all he want to be Braham Borjeson, and other Norn would still call him Eirson. Because, for them, that would be his main defining characteristics – being a son of a Legend.

Once Braham picks up a little glory on his own (he’s already on a way to it), he will be able to change his name and make it stick. It still won’t likely be Borjeson though.

Astralporing.1957:

Etienne.3049:

I know that the norn are not exactly the same as historical cultures they are based on but it seems to me like the Norn wouldn’t have a lot of written official texts like laws and name documents so they would be likely to have naming customs rather than rules leaving Braham free to pick the name from the parent he actually liked. (I know I’m pretty much guessing at Norn culture here and may very well be wrong.)

Most likely he just wasn’t famous enough himself to make others use a different name. He could claim all he want to be Braham Borjeson, and other Norn would still call him Eirson. Because, for them, that would be his main defining characteristics – being a son of a Legend.

Makes some sense, they’d still have to know who his mother was for that though.
And most player characters aren’t Norn and might well call him by whaterver he’d introduce himself as.

Etienne.3049:

Astralporing.1957:

Etienne.3049:

I know that the norn are not exactly the same as historical cultures they are based on but it seems to me like the Norn wouldn’t have a lot of written official texts like laws and name documents so they would be likely to have naming customs rather than rules leaving Braham free to pick the name from the parent he actually liked. (I know I’m pretty much guessing at Norn culture here and may very well be wrong.)

Most likely he just wasn’t famous enough himself to make others use a different name. He could claim all he want to be Braham Borjeson, and other Norn would still call him Eirson. Because, for them, that would be his main defining characteristics – being a son of a Legend.

Makes some sense, they’d still have to know who his mother was for that though.
And most player characters aren’t Norn and might well call him by whaterver he’d introduce himself as.

But then he is Norn. A product of certain culture. Would he really try to pass himself as someone he is not? Would he even think of introducing himself with a different name?

Keep in mind he was a kid once – which means over a decade of everyone around him calling him “Eirsson”. Even with his gripes with his mother, I’m sure the sound of his own name seems quite normal to him at this point.

It’s not unheard of in Icelandic culture for someone to have a name based on their mother’s name, rather than their father’s. As such, it’s not out of the ordinary for the Norn to have the same thing.

Here are some examples of matronymics used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hei%C3%B0ar_Helguson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%C3%B0r%C3%BAn_Eva_M%C3%ADnervud%C3%B3ttir

Here’s one with both a patronymic and a matronymic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagur_Berg%C3%BE%C3%B3ruson_Eggertsson

“Matronyms were used exceptionally if the child was born out of wedlock or if the mother was much more high-born or well known than the father, a historical example being Sweyn Estridsson.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Nordic_countries

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Etienne.3049:

Also, related but somewhat off-topic, there doesn’t seem to be any consistency to whether it’s -son and -dottir or -sson and -sdottir.

Probably about how it sounds when spoken.

Whether it’s -son/-sson or -dottir/sdottir depends on what the possessive form of the parent’s name happens to be. A man named Helgi would have a son named Helgason and a daughter named Helgadottir, while a man named Gudmundur would have children named Gudmundsson and Gudmundsdottir, respectively.

I looked into this issue when I was considering a name for my Norn Engineer; Syph Raffendottir.

There are several alternative ways of spelling this type of name. The OP bases the comment on Icelandic. I don’t see any logical connection of Norn to Iceland.

In fact, they came from Frostgorge Sound as I understand it. Mainland Tyria.

Don’t recall seeing too many half naked males or females here in Scandinavia during the winter outdoors either, that black dead tissue look from frostbite seems to not be a thing in fantasy games either.

Yargesh.4965:

Don’t recall seeing too many half naked males or females here in Scandinavia during the winter outdoors either, that black dead tissue look from frostbite seems to not be a thing in fantasy games either.

Thank god. . .

Yargesh.4965:

Don’t recall seeing too many half naked males or females here in Scandinavia during the winter outdoors either, that black dead tissue look from frostbite seems to not be a thing in fantasy games either.

There are times when such a look has its place. Though I admit more in a fantasy game than in real life.

Hanayatori.3764:

Whether it’s -son/-sson or -dottir/sdottir depends on what the possessive form of the parent’s name happens to be. A man named Helgi would have a son named Helgason and a daughter named Helgadottir, while a man named Gudmundur would have children named Gudmundsson and Gudmundsdottir, respectively.

Makes sense, especially since the Norn apparently do speak a language other than whatever humans speak (in addition to the human language) which would probably be the one used for names.

There’s a few on the wikis that still look odd (the name with -son or -dottir removed looks odd for a possessive) but that may be due to me not knowing any language close to old norse.

It has to be Eirsson to show the players Brahams relationship to Eir. If it were Braham Whatchamacallumson, nobody see Braham in any way related to Eir.

Yes, the relationship is also mentioned in some LS instances, but few people notice this.

I can’t believe there was a bingo in a GW2 thread about the importance of parents, SMH

Maybe Eir was a single mom who kicked dad out of the picture. We know that Eir is kind of a deadbeat parent.

They also pronounce Niamh in the living story wrong. It’s a tradition gaelic name that should be pronounced “Neev”.

I think you have to be willing to let go of things like that though. Words and traditions change just like any living thing. Struggling to keep things like that the same, isn’t really worth the worry and effort.

For the record if you’re talking about Icelandic culture (im icelandic) when a child reaches a certain age, they can choose their own name. Picking the fathers or mothers name for surename is up to the child and is not determined which parent showed more interest or took more care of the child, its up to them.
They can also add a family name if one has existed sometime in the family, they can add it if they want.
Only thing that they need to make sure of before changing their name is that its correct grammar wise, if it can be bent correctly.

Dont know why OP thinks his name should bend towards icelandic culture since both names Brooham and Borje are neither Icelandic names and wouldnt get a green light if people tried to add them as new names. Only name that has any simularities to our culture is Eir.

Besides Arenanet has their own rules for names, its their fantasy game, they can do what they want and nobody can say that their naming is wrong.

Vulfgar.8735:

Besides Arenanet has their own rules for names, its their fantasy game, they can do what they want and nobody can say that their naming is wrong.

GEORmag approves.

(Seriously though, that hard J is a cheese grater on my psyche.)

It is true that in islandic culture one gets his name after the father. The norns however get their name after the parent that made the bigger name for themself. In the time of gw1 a couple of norns could start a relationship when they boath were same skilled hunters. I belived it was changed somewhere during the 250 year gap.

Fext.3614:

No, you are wrong. The “legend” is not really his mother, since she did not care about her biological child at all. OTOH the “nobody” is his caring PARENT who did trade a career and glory for his child happiness, and that is SOMETHING. Because a good and loving parent is something way more valuable than a skilled slayer (and from the dps point of view Eir sucks even as a slayer).

If the game wants to teach us the opposite point of view, it is bad.

You really need to understand the norn culture first and foremost. A huge mistake you’re making is that you claim they should follow human cultural naming practices.

As for legends, again, you need to read up on who the norn are. How many Elder Dragons did his father right? How many did Eir fight? In this context, Braham’s father is more akin to a stay-at-home parent than a warrior.

Le sigh. I’m Welsh, you should feel the pain inflicted on us Celts with gw2 naming. We have to grit our teeth all the time. Repeat It’s only a game. It’s only a game. It’s only a game. while clicking your heels together

Most norn follow a Northern European or Viking-style first name system, though some like the famous explorer Captain Romke and his crew have Dutch and Frisian names.

Their surnames can vary in a multitude of styles. Norn without any achievements or legends have surnames after one of their parents (father/mother’s first name followed by -sson or -sdottir or a variant thereof); this is most commonly seen in children, and they’re named after the more famous of their parents even if they do not like said parent (e.g., Braham Eirsson). Surnames do not get adopted from generation to generation and they can be changed by the individual to fit their own personal legend (e.g., a famous Wolfborn member took the surname Wolfsdottir); married couples may not always share surnames either (though some may, e.g., Knut and Gaerta Whitebear). Some norn may also take titles instead of a surname if it fits them and their legend more (e.g., Borje the Sun Chaser).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Norn#Names

Norn are not Icelanders. They are Norn.

Surnames of Norn that have not earned their own legend yet take the first name of their more legendary parent and add sdottir or sson to the end. When they gain a legend of their own, they take on a surname or title reflecting their greatest legend of their choosing.

This is why Jhavi Jorasdottir is not named after some nobody we have no name for that Jora from Eye of the North slept with.

Braham’s name is correct by Norn standards.

Ice of Dragons.1637:

It is true that in islandic culture one gets his name after the father. The norns however get their name after the parent that made the bigger name for themself. In the time of gw1 a couple of norns could start a relationship when they boath were same skilled hunters. I belived it was changed somewhere during the 250 year gap.

Actually it is still the same. Norn are expected to only marry other Norn with equal legends. However, a norn’s legend may rise greater after marriage, such as was the case for Eir with Bjorne.

What about the Sylvari player character I saw in-game called “Cabbagepants McGee”? Is that a proper Sylvari name?

Hamfast.8719:

What about the Sylvari player character I saw in-game called “Cabbagepants McGee”? Is that a proper Sylvari name?

They are talking about NPCs i think…

Hamfast.8719:

What about the Sylvari player character I saw in-game called “Cabbagepants McGee”? Is that a proper Sylvari name?

Dang straight it is!

Signed

Stinkyboots McFreak

Yargesh.4965:

Don’t recall seeing too many half naked males or females here in Scandinavia during the winter outdoors either, that black dead tissue look from frostbite seems to not be a thing in fantasy games either.

Norn are biologically different from human (so much so you’d have a good basis to call them a separate species), they can’t get frostbite. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Graff
They wear skins only as a cultural practice not to stay warm.

Hamfast.8719:

What about the Sylvari player character I saw in-game called “Cabbagepants McGee”? Is that a proper Sylvari name?

I’m not exactly sure how Sylvari naming convention works… I guess they just choice whatever sounds cool when they pop out of their pod?

Another Icelander weighing in here in two a two part rant. Thanks for bearing with me.
Part 1(about Icelanders and Norn): There are some similarities between norn and icelanders. Some of us may be pretty adventurous, climbing glaciers and diverting lava flows and sailing through storms to catch a few fish, and there is a reputation for heavy drinking, and a strong connection to storytelling traditions, and personal reputation is still a very important part of our culture, but instead of hunting huge monsters we raise sheep and knit sweaters, and for the most part, we don’t live legends, we just tell them. We are more like a nation of Skalds than a nation of heros. Let the Americans where the hero badge. We are a bit more domestic.
Also, addressing an earlier post I wont bother quoting, we are one of the most egalitarian countries in the world. We even had the worlds first lesbian head of state.
But I’m getting off topic. My point being that in spite of a few similarities, icelanders are not norn and vice versa.

Part 2 (About Norn naming conventions): What many people seem to have forgotten is this: According to Anet, Norn individuals are specifically named by their communities. They Do Not name themselves. They are named by their reputation among other norn, which encourages norn who receive unfavorable titles to do something more worthy. In Braham’s case, he has a reputation for being Eir’s son. Other norn likely gossip about him. They gossip about the son of Eir, and they know his name, and They are the ones who name him Eirsson. It’s not up to him, or Eir, or the people who raised him, it’s up to the norn community. It’s not like they vote on it either, and maybe some people do call him Vinebane or Thorn Slayer, or maybe they will start calling him Braham The Lame (If his leg doesn’t heal right). My point being that it will always be the norn community, with some Skaldic influences perhaps, who has the final say in a norn’s name, and right now they recognize him as Eirsson.

This is a silly conversation. The Norn are a fantasy race inspired by Nordic culture. Their naming conventions don’t have to match the real world any more than Arenanet wants them to.

I’m more bothered by the persistent mispronunciation of the word “golem”. It’s supposed to be “goh-lem”, not “Gollum” like the LotR character.

The OP kind of just sounds like a whiny chauvinist.

Einlanzer.1627:

This is a silly conversation. The Norn are a fantasy race inspired by Nordic culture. Their naming conventions don’t have to match the real world any more than Arenanet wants them to.

I’m more bothered by the persistent mispronunciation of the word “golem”. It’s supposed to be “goh-lem”, not “Gollum” like the LotR character.

The OP kind of just sounds like a whiny chauvinist.

Isn’t this rather silly though?
You claim that ArenaNet can do whatever they want with the lore, and yet you are bothered by them having a specific pronunciation of a certain word?

What? Hold on a second. When I was suggesting this game could have nordicist ideals, most people told me Norns had nothing to do with Nordic people and that they were inspired of Native Americans. Now you’re saying they are supposed to be Nordic again?

He’s Norn, not Icelandic.

Case closed.

Fext.3614:

Also since Eir did not show any interest in her child, and he himself did not knew who his mother was, until he was seven, there is no real reason to name Braham after his mother.

This was my thought on the matter for sure.

However, I wonder if in Norn culture a person is “named” by family accomplishment over lineage.

Prophet.6257:

This was my thought on the matter for sure.

However, I wonder if in Norn culture a person is “named” by family accomplishment over lineage.

Answer below!!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Norn are not Icelanders. They are Norn.

Surnames of Norn that have not earned their own legend yet take the first name of their more legendary parent and add sdottir or sson to the end. When they gain a legend of their own, they take on a surname or title reflecting their greatest legend of their choosing.

This is why Jhavi Jorasdottir is not named after some nobody we have no name for that Jora from Eye of the North slept with.

Braham’s name is correct by Norn standards.

Ice of Dragons.1637:

It is true that in islandic culture one gets his name after the father. The norns however get their name after the parent that made the bigger name for themself. In the time of gw1 a couple of norns could start a relationship when they boath were same skilled hunters. I belived it was changed somewhere during the 250 year gap.

Actually it is still the same. Norn are expected to only marry other Norn with equal legends. However, a norn’s legend may rise greater after marriage, such as was the case for Eir with Bjorne.

Hope that helped!