Guild Wars 2

Hello,

So I’ve been playing the living story since release and it is really going down hill.

You guys really need to work on immersing the players in the story and rewarding them for doing the story.

What I’m finding is most of the people I talk to have no idea what is going on in the story or simply don’t care. They see a new set of achievements and start going for the meta reward.

I love what you did in flame and frost where every few days something new would happen in game. The living story would progress in some way. While I do wish the idea would be expanded upon (it was simply adding in more refugees to the camp) it is a great idea. Progressing the story every 3-4 days but keeping the previous quest for the 2 week time. For exampe the Baazar. Here is what I would have done. Keep in mind that these portions of the game are instanced and can be repeated so that players who come in later can do them. After 2 weeks is up they all go away. 1. Help Kiel gather supplies for the trip to the Baazar- Go around the open world into these story missions where you raid enemies or help towns and they give you various supplies. 2. Kiel and the crew of the ship have stopped in Southsun to restock on a few supplies- Players can go there and see the ship/her crew walking around the camp doing usual stuff. They can enter a instance mission where you have to defend the camp against waves of pirates then barely escape on the ship. 3. The Current part of the living story. Reward players for doing the story. ALWAYS add in a guaranteed reward to the game and make it useful. Don’t give us a already in the game skin with stats that are already in the game. To a game without a gear grind this is useless to most players. You’ve been giving us the guaranteed rewards through the meta achievements, but that isn’t immersive at all and very boring. Take this months LS. I’m finding players just grinding out the achievements and getting bored/annoyed.

You’re turning the achievement system into a quest giver system. Don’t do that, please. Achievements should be a nice reward for players on the side, they should NOT be the main focus of the endgame/living story.

Finally the living story needs to have more of an impact on the world in general. So far I feel like have done nothing. Every living story introduces something new, usually with a new character that I have little to no attachment too. This entire year seems like every LS arc has just been more and more blocks on the base foundation of the LS that you guys are planning on building on. You’ve given us enough characters at this point now, it is time to start getting us attached to these characters. Make these characters interactable outside of the living story. Make them like the Modus Sceleris where they wonder around the world and you can find them and do events with them. Keep in mind that these events need to be rewarding to all players, not just the typical karma+gold+ exp reward. 80s would have no desire to do them. Finally use characters, enemies, and locations already in the game. So far we went to wayfarer, disseau, southsun, and LA. Start spreading these out in these maps and make them over multiple maps. Players are attached to stuff already in the game, when you introduce new locations, characters, enemies, and other things we have no attachment to them which causes the living story to have less of an effect on us.

tl;dr: LS needs to be more immersive. Achievements are too much of the focus and feel way too much like quest givers telling players what to do. We need to start getting attached to characters. Please no more new characters and new enemies. Guild wars 2 open world has so much depth in terms of the story and you guys haven’t utilized it at all.

This LS has the community more immersed than any content thus far. In the forums there are heated debates over which candidate players prefer, their concerns on the impact of the electoral choices, people actually role playing debating sides on the forum and in game, people concerned with lore past and present, and even some joking posts that just have fun with the political atmosphere (references to Anthony Weiner, candidate slam posts, speculation). We’ve even seen more devs reply to posts concerning this LS than we’ve seen with most content which also shows they’re excited about what’s happening and just as into it as we are.

Immersion is being vested in the game you’re playing emotionally, being concerned with it’s future, and caring about your character and events. I feel this time around they’ve nailed it on the head and got a great player response.

LS since F&F has been nothing but improving. I think you’re looking at Flame and Frost with rose colored glasses cause the way I remember it there was a sign fixing quest that was finished in 20 minutes in January and then no more until February. At that time people liked the idea of the LS but they gave us too little to do with enormous gaps of time between the release of more things to do in said living story. It was a hurry up and wait situation and these days it’s a lot better than Flame and Frost was.

Uvatha.5476:

This LS has the community more immersed than any content thus far. In the forums there are heated debates over which candidate players prefer, their concerns on the impact of the electoral choices, people actually role playing debating sides on the forum and in game, people concerned with lore past and present, and even some joking posts that just have fun with the political atmosphere (references to Anthony Weiner, candidate slam posts, speculation). We’ve even seen more devs reply to posts concerning this LS than we’ve seen with most content which also shows they’re excited about what’s happening and just as into it as we are.

Immersion is being vested in the game you’re playing emotionally, being concerned with it’s future, and caring about your character and events. I feel this time around they’ve nailed it on the head and got a great player response.

LS since F&F has been nothing but improving. I think you’re looking at Flame and Frost with rose colored glasses cause the way I remember it there was a sign fixing quest that was finished in 20 minutes in January and then no more until February. At that time people liked the idea of the LS but they gave us too little to do with enormous gaps of time between the release of more things to do in said living story. It was a hurry up and wait situation and these days it’s a lot better than Flame and Frost was.

Maybe, but the forums is the vocal minority. While it may be intense on here, most players in game I find that don’t visit the forums are not immersed at all. They simple see achievements>quest>ignore everything else.

so the players that don’t care about immersing themselves and only chase achievements are.. not feeling immersed?

duh?

immersion is a two-way street, if you don’t involve yourself the game won’t do it for you.

“immersion is a two-way street, if you don’t involve yourself the game won’t do it for you.”

One way if badly done. Never been as immersed in any GW2 quest as any Secret world or SWTOR quest.
I’m done with the “Good guy vs Bad guy” anyway, a world’s real interest is made by its shades of grey.

I have to agree with the OP in some aspects, I have made the same experience. Most of my friends/guildies have no clue what’s going on storywise. A whole map appears out of nowhere (Labyrinth Cliffs). How is this connected to the sky pirates? Why did the skypirates attack? Lore about Kiel and Gnashblade is introduced not in the game but on a website… not very accessible.

Sure, people who invest extra time to gather lore together from various sources (website, books, occasional npc chatter —> youtube,…) will get their full experience. It’s sad that the writers who create this stuff have no ingame-platform to spread the stories to the players playing the game.

People who have played jewels like Baldurs Gate have to wonder how that game had looked like if all the decent ingame-lore would have been on websites.

I find that add to the realism, though.

In real life, if I want to know what’s going on, I have to get informed, too.

At least in GW, there’s only a limited number of sources for info: website/blog announcements (which you get emailed, too…), wiki, forum (in that order) or if you want to save some time, dulfy.

It’s really not that hard.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I find that add to the realism, though.

In real life, if I want to know what’s going on, I have to get informed, too.

At least in GW, there’s only a limited number of sources for info: website/blog announcements (which you get emailed, too…), wiki, forum (in that order) or if you want to save some time, dulfy.

It’s really not that hard.

…if you follow it constantly. If you are new to the game it might get a bit difficult to find the story of Mr. Sparkles or Canach for example. It could be so easy, those book-carts in Divinity’s Reach could simply contain real ingame books with a few pages of the website/blogpost/wiki-content. And every newcomer or people who missed it the first time would have easy access to it.

I’d also love to re-read such wonderful pieces while waiting for the WvW queue or something like that, without having to leave the game and look for long-forgotten bookmarks in my webbrowser.

btw: some stories aren’t even available anymore on the official Anet blogpost page.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Lore about Kiel and Gnashblade is introduced not in the game but on a website… not very accessible.

How is a website ‘not very accessible’?

not only are you using a website right now, you can even access it directly in-game with the /wiki command.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

without having to leave the game and look for long-forgotten bookmarks in my webbrowser.

Dude come on, you’re talking about alt-tabbing to your web browser like some insurmountable hurdle to your fun, it’s something most computer users do countless times each day.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I find that add to the realism, though.

In real life, if I want to know what’s going on, I have to get informed, too.

At least in GW, there’s only a limited number of sources for info: website/blog announcements (which you get emailed, too…), wiki, forum (in that order) or if you want to save some time, dulfy.

It’s really not that hard.

…if you follow it constantly. If you are new to the game it might get a bit difficult to find the story of Mr. Sparkles or Canach for example. It could be so easy, those book-carts in Divinity’s Reach could simply contain real ingame books with a few pages of the website/blogpost/wiki-content. And every newcomer or people who missed it the first time would have easy access to it.

I’d also love to re-read such wonderful pieces while waiting for the WvW queue or something like that, without having to leave the game and look for long-forgotten bookmarks in my webbrowser.

btw: some stories aren’t even available anymore on the official Anet blogpost page.

I know, other people suggested to put all the info into the Priory’s library.

The thing is… most people don’t even read the books and journals that already lie around in open world. In book carts, the information would be pretty well hidden from 9 out of 10 players, so I don’t know what that would solve.

Uvatha.5476:

This LS has the community more immersed than any content thus far.

You’re thinking “Engaged” not “Immersed”.

I agree with alot of what the OP says. I personally have felt a huge disconnect with the “story” it comes across as just a huge list of achievements and no where do I find any direction other than the achievement list and starting mail.

I would love having books to read, but seriously, some players are too lazy to even read the update notes, even comparing them to a book. Do you think they will bother reading an actual book?

Deified.7520:

You’re turning the achievement system into a quest giver system. Don’t do that, please. Achievements should be a nice reward for players on the side, they should NOT be the main focus of the endgame/living story.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 and so on!

The living story is too achievement heavy. you need to tone it down. make new achievements in the world but NOT in the content updates (with time restrictions)!

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I find that add to the realism, though.

In real life, if I want to know what’s going on, I have to get informed, too.

At least in GW, there’s only a limited number of sources for info: website/blog announcements (which you get emailed, too…), wiki, forum (in that order) or if you want to save some time, dulfy.

It’s really not that hard.

Omg… How in the world a new player could know where to start looking?! There is no way you can excuse AN for not introducing everything you need to know about the in game story INSIDE THE GAME! It’s that simple.

The only reason why it’s not in the game is that they don’t have proper tools to do that (like quests).

knyy.6427:

Deified.7520:

You’re turning the achievement system into a quest giver system. Don’t do that, please. Achievements should be a nice reward for players on the side, they should NOT be the main focus of the endgame/living story.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 and so on!

The living story is too achievement heavy. you need to tone it down. make new achievements in the world but NOT in the content updates (with time restrictions)!

They are using achievements because there is NOTHING else that they can use to tell people where they need to be.

Agreement from me as well. Everything we need to know about current and past stories should be available in-game. Having to go outside of the game irritates me because it smacks of laziness and a lack of concern for immersion — there’s just a colossal difference between my character learning something from an in-game source and me having to google the same information. It’s one thing to give out-of-game “behind the scenes” information like what the inspiration for a design or a story or a culture were, or touch on something that has not shown up in the game (yet).

Standing on Zephyr’s Sanctum listening to the NPCs talk among themselves, or going to talk to them, is fun. I generally like sitting idle for a while and see if any NPCs around me have anything to say. That is immersive. “Go to this link to read a story that explains what’s going on” is not.

For that matter, immersion would also be helped if my character was more involved and felt like she has a place in what’s going on. If I’m not actively taking part in conversations and events as they happen, but only get a second-hand “go-here-do-that” order after the fact, I — again — feel irritated because it’s like my character has no brains and no agency and is just an servant for the NPCs.

As for achievements, hunting them CAN be fun — the Sanctum meta had me going for some jumping puzzles which I had not done before because I generally do not like them, or managed to miss them altogether. I found that when I did succeed at them it was actually satisfying in and of itself, not just because it advanced the achievement count. But overall, there’s definitely too much emphasis on random tasks and not enough on story and lore.

I don’t know. It seems to me that stuff is happening and a player could figure out that stuff is happening just by paying attention to the existence of new content. The walls of text explaining that new content should probably be relegated to the browser. So long as they are showing in-game, that should be fine. For those of us who want the telling, stepping outside the game for a bit isn’t unreasonable.

Indeed, if I were to put the “telling” in-game, I would probably turn bookcarts and flyers and stuff into browser links… but only if it’s written from an “in-game” perspective. (And actually, adding dozens and dozens of “in-game” books, truth, lies, heavily biased opinions and all, like in Elder Scrolls games, to Guild Wars 2, would be really, really neat.) The synopsis should be linked purely from the launcher.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

…Lore about Kiel and Gnashblade is introduced not in the game but on a website… not very accessible.

Sure, people who invest extra time to gather lore together from various sources (website, books, occasional npc chatter —> youtube,…) will get their full experience. It’s sad that the writers who create this stuff have no ingame-platform to spread the stories to the players playing the game.

People who have played jewels like Baldurs Gate have to wonder how that game had looked like if all the decent ingame-lore would have been on websites.

Chadramar.8156:

Agreement from me as well. Everything we need to know about current and past stories should be available in-game. Having to go outside of the game irritates me because it smacks of laziness and a lack of concern for immersion — there’s just a colossal difference between my character learning something from an in-game source and me having to google the same information….

This is a really interesting point, but I believe this just isn’t the way the world works anymore, and it’s not how this game works, either. Keep in mind that both the devs and the target market for this game are pretty much all people under 30 (Did you see the dev Halloween picture? Babies! And who has the time to really play MMOs? People without as many responsibilities.). They don’t even publicize information about their game on their own website for the most part: it’s distributed between reddit, facebook, twitter, their forums, other forums, and interviews given out to a huge random bunch of sites (and probably other places). That’s because the walls between different ways to distribute and gather information don’t exist for them, partially because the walls that separate “official” or verified information from speculation and gossip are being torn down (especially online) all in the name of speed of access. For people under 30 (and especially under 22) I don’t think there is much difference between getting information online and offline, because it all flows together constantly. Take the rude retort to the original comment about “why can’t you just alt tab” – this person is probably serious about why you can’t just alt-tab. They probably honestly have no idea why that is immersion breaking because for them: it isn’t. And they can’t even imagine a perspective where it would be. Their game world exists both inside and outside the game in the same way that “being connected” happens both when you’re online and when you’re not.

I think modern games have come to accept the idea that their game does not exist solely within the game itself. Some have really played with this idea further, but even simple games still have FAQs and videos and fan sites and a huge plethora of out-of-game information which is all still a part of the whole experience of playing the game. I mean take these forums: some people come to the forums while they’re at work because they can’t play the game any other way while they’re at work. Using the forums is just another way of participating in the game. And in the end, isn’t the game actually richer because of all this? Isn’t it actually a bonus that there are so many ways to feel and participate in the game even when you’re not playing, and so many layers to what is available for you? And GW2 is one of the most modern, forward-thinking games I’ve ever participated in when it comes to having a more “distributed” view of how the world works, or how their game works, and as I said before I have to think it’s due in no small part to the fact that their team and talent are so young. That’s the new generation. The information is more spread out and harder to access but also more rich. It’s less “deeply immersive” but at the same time “more shallow immersive.” Less deep, more rich. Think about how google works: there is only one layer of information. But it has everything.

I’m sure I’ve waxed far too philosophical for most people on these boards but it’s ok: they won’t read a post this long anyway. This is really directed toward those who actually know what Baldur’s Gate is and how alt-tabbing could possibly break someone’s immersion.

arabeth.2361:

They don’t even publicize information about their game on their own website for the most part: it’s distributed between reddit, facebook, twitter, their forums, other forums, and interviews given out to a huge random bunch of sites (and probably other places).

That is one of the things that seriously keep ticking me off. It’s lazy and unprofessional, and frankly I’m not keen on many of these “social media” sites with their highly questionable (at best) stances on user privacy and harassment/abuse protection.

You make some really good points, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it. :p In fact, you may have put into words one reason why the game fails to grab me as I’d hoped it would.

I think modern games have come to accept the idea that their game does not exist solely within the game itself. Some have really played with this idea further, but even simple games still have FAQs and videos and fan sites and a huge plethora of out-of-game information which is all still a part of the whole experience of playing the game. I mean take these forums: some people come to the forums while they’re at work because they can’t play the game any other way while they’re at work. Using the forums is just another way of participating in the game. And in the end, isn’t the game actually richer because of all this?

Sure, it’s also great fun to discuss the plot and characters with like-minded fans — sometimes to a much greater depth than the game itself affords these issues. And class/dungeon strategy guides can be a great help. Nonetheless, there is a colossal difference between communication among the player community, which is impossible to do to this extent in-game, and the devs not bothering to make information promptly and centrally available, or not bothering to write a coherent story in-game.

Maybe I’m “old-fashioned”, but there is no way I’d be able to enjoy a game a fraction as much if I can’t experience it by actually playing it.

The information is more spread out and harder to access but also more rich.

I can’t agree with that. At all. When I first learned about this game, I thought its lore and setting were quite interesting, but they don’t seem to be doing anything with it. Also, there is no reason why any “richness” that may exist can’t be available in-game.

Uvatha.5476:

This LS has the community more immersed than any content thus far. In the forums there are heated debates over which candidate players prefer, their concerns on the impact of the electoral choices, people actually role playing debating sides on the forum and in game, people concerned with lore past and present, and even some joking posts that just have fun with the political atmosphere (references to Anthony Weiner, candidate slam posts, speculation). We’ve even seen more devs reply to posts concerning this LS than we’ve seen with most content which also shows they’re excited about what’s happening and just as into it as we are.

Immersion is being vested in the game you’re playing emotionally, being concerned with it’s future, and caring about your character and events. I feel this time around they’ve nailed it on the head and got a great player response.

LS since F&F has been nothing but improving. I think you’re looking at Flame and Frost with rose colored glasses cause the way I remember it there was a sign fixing quest that was finished in 20 minutes in January and then no more until February. At that time people liked the idea of the LS but they gave us too little to do with enormous gaps of time between the release of more things to do in said living story. It was a hurry up and wait situation and these days it’s a lot better than Flame and Frost was.

The election is a one trick pony. If we kept having elections players would run away in droves. The interest you are talking about is a consequence of giving players a real choice over the future of the game (despite it being relatively minor). Players aren’t truly engaged by the story, they are engaged by the choice. Once they were invested in either side, other things developed around that (to the point where players were arguing for against characters not because they cared about those character but because they chose a side). Also note that this is the holidays in some parts of the world, so player participation is going to be higher this month than most.

It’s not the story that engaged people this month, it’s the choice.

Shiren.9532:

It’s not the story that engaged people this month, it’s the choice.

And with it, the mystery of which Fractal is going to win, so which part of the playerbase knows to quit playing

Chadramar.8156:

You make some really good points, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it. :p

Ha! Well, right back at you: we don’t have to like it, but I do wonder if this is the way the gaming world is headed.

Chadramar.8156:

Nonetheless, there is a colossal difference between communication among the player community, which is impossible to do to this extent in-game, and the devs not bothering to make information promptly and centrally available, or not bothering to write a coherent story in-game.

I think those walls are coming down, though. I think the difference between the “player-driven” narrative of participating in the game and the “developer-driven” narrative is becoming smaller. Think about this: when you play an MMO, what’s the most important part: the game’s preset story, or the “story” that develops from playing with other people? The first may as well be a single-player game; it’s also static and can only happen once (or a predetermined number of times). The second is something that can happen as many times as you have the time and effort to invest in it. And that’s really the heart of what makes an MMO a multiplayer game. I think the player-driven experience of massive online games is where those games are headed; it’s really the only sustainable long-term solution. And I think GW2 plays into this fairly well, although they straddle the line quite a bit. Sure, they gave us a semi-hack (but not insignificant) “personal story” to sucker the Baldur’s Gate crowd in, and keep posting minigame-filled “living story” updates, but the real meat – and what keeps people playing hundreds of hours instead of scores – is the experience of playing with other people, which cannot be scripted but is also capable of being more authentic. Here’s another example: I can’t name every member of Destiny’s Edge off the top of my head (I’m lucky I even got the guild’s name right). But I can tell you the names of my guild leader(s), fun people I play with online, and Dulfy without blinking. Those are powerful player-driven experiences, and those are more meaningful to me than what they’ve delivered “officially” in-game. And rather than try to control or centralize those experiences, Anet chooses to simply provide the catalyst and then get out of the way. Hence: decentralization, propagation, and instigation.

I think this is a sea change. We can choose to stand defiant in the storm or accept this brave new world.

Shiren.9532:

Uvatha.5476:

This LS has the community more immersed than any content thus far. In the forums there are heated debates over which candidate players prefer, their concerns on the impact of the electoral choices, people actually role playing debating sides on the forum and in game, people concerned with lore past and present, and even some joking posts that just have fun with the political atmosphere (references to Anthony Weiner, candidate slam posts, speculation). We’ve even seen more devs reply to posts concerning this LS than we’ve seen with most content which also shows they’re excited about what’s happening and just as into it as we are.

Immersion is being vested in the game you’re playing emotionally, being concerned with it’s future, and caring about your character and events. I feel this time around they’ve nailed it on the head and got a great player response.

LS since F&F has been nothing but improving. I think you’re looking at Flame and Frost with rose colored glasses cause the way I remember it there was a sign fixing quest that was finished in 20 minutes in January and then no more until February. At that time people liked the idea of the LS but they gave us too little to do with enormous gaps of time between the release of more things to do in said living story. It was a hurry up and wait situation and these days it’s a lot better than Flame and Frost was.

The election is a one trick pony. If we kept having elections players would run away in droves. The interest you are talking about is a consequence of giving players a real choice over the future of the game (despite it being relatively minor). Players aren’t truly engaged by the story, they are engaged by the choice. Once they were invested in either side, other things developed around that (to the point where players were arguing for against characters not because they cared about those character but because they chose a side). Also note that this is the holidays in some parts of the world, so player participation is going to be higher this month than most.

It’s not the story that engaged people this month, it’s the choice.

Seems like a chicken or egg situation to me.

arabeth.2361:

This is a really interesting point, but I believe this just isn’t the way the world works anymore, and it’s not how this game works, either. Keep in mind that both the devs and the target market for this game are pretty much all people under 30 (Did you see the dev Halloween picture? Babies! And who has the time to really play MMOs? People without as many responsibilities.). They don’t even publicize information about their game on their own website for the most part: it’s distributed between reddit, facebook, twitter, their forums, other forums, and interviews given out to a huge random bunch of sites (and probably other places). That’s because the walls between different ways to distribute and gather information don’t exist for them, partially because the walls that separate “official” or verified information from speculation and gossip are being torn down (especially online) all in the name of speed of access. For people under 30 (and especially under 22) I don’t think there is much difference between getting information online and offline, because it all flows together constantly. Take the rude retort to the original comment about “why can’t you just alt tab” – this person is probably serious about why you can’t just alt-tab. They probably honestly have no idea why that is immersion breaking because for them: it isn’t. And they can’t even imagine a perspective where it would be. Their game world exists both inside and outside the game in the same way that “being connected” happens both when you’re online and when you’re not.

I think modern games have come to accept the idea that their game does not exist solely within the game itself. Some have really played with this idea further, but even simple games still have FAQs and videos and fan sites and a huge plethora of out-of-game information which is all still a part of the whole experience of playing the game. I mean take these forums: some people come to the forums while they’re at work because they can’t play the game any other way while they’re at work. Using the forums is just another way of participating in the game. And in the end, isn’t the game actually richer because of all this? Isn’t it actually a bonus that there are so many ways to feel and participate in the game even when you’re not playing, and so many layers to what is available for you? And GW2 is one of the most modern, forward-thinking games I’ve ever participated in when it comes to having a more “distributed” view of how the world works, or how their game works, and as I said before I have to think it’s due in no small part to the fact that their team and talent are so young. That’s the new generation. The information is more spread out and harder to access but also more rich. It’s less “deeply immersive” but at the same time “more shallow immersive.” Less deep, more rich. Think about how google works: there is only one layer of information. But it has everything.

I’m sure I’ve waxed far too philosophical for most people on these boards but it’s ok: they won’t read a post this long anyway. This is really directed toward those who actually know what Baldur’s Gate is and how alt-tabbing could possibly break someone’s immersion.

I would say their target audience is 30-somethings…and their kids. It’s pretty apparent to me they want the older, casual, cash-cow crowd, along with a new younger, and impressionable, generation.

At any rate I think you have a very good point in what you say about immersion. There’s tons of stuff to see and read and learn in tons of different outlets. I don’t think that’s what people are arguing here though. It’s the richness that’s missing. On a personal note, even if I didn’t have issue with how the Guild Wars story has been morphed over the years, I still would have trouble liking it. It’s just so random and frilly and superficial. It’s almost as if ANet wanted to cater to the modern, teensy, ADD crowd who can’t be bothered with focusing on one thing for longer than a few moments. It’s depressing.

Deified.7520:

Hello,
You guys really need to work on immersing the players in the story and rewarding them for doing the story.

The Living World is not story driven content, it is activity driven content with a story wrapped around it. It has always been designed to get the player base to engage with certain activities and areas.

—In this moment in time, we converge in this spot and do these things, together. It has succeeded in every way as far as I am concerned, even if it is not everyone’s cup of tea.

If you don’t like activities and are looking for an extension of the personal story experience, then you should wait until larger content is released. Let those who enjoy the Living World for what it is, do so.

Even though the Living World is not story driven, I do believe that the story that has been wrapped around it, is going to be taking us to said larger content (which has basically been confirmed).

My belief is that at the end of the day, the Living World will look as follows:
Month to Month = Activity Driven Content
Annually-ish = Larger Content (Expansion)

If that turns out to be true, I think it would be pretty awesome that ArenaNet integrated two game mechanisms (monthly activities and content expansion) into one cohesive process.

arabeth.2361:

Chadramar.8156:

You make some really good points, but that doesn’t mean we have to like it. :p

Ha! Well, right back at you: we don’t have to like it, but I do wonder if this is the way the gaming world is headed.

Chadramar.8156:

Nonetheless, there is a colossal difference between communication among the player community, which is impossible to do to this extent in-game, and the devs not bothering to make information promptly and centrally available, or not bothering to write a coherent story in-game.

I think those walls are coming down, though. I think the difference between the “player-driven” narrative of participating in the game and the “developer-driven” narrative is becoming smaller. Think about this: when you play an MMO, what’s the most important part: the game’s preset story, or the “story” that develops from playing with other people? The first may as well be a single-player game; it’s also static and can only happen once (or a predetermined number of times). The second is something that can happen as many times as you have the time and effort to invest in it. And that’s really the heart of what makes an MMO a multiplayer game. I think the player-driven experience of massive online games is where those games are headed; it’s really the only sustainable long-term solution. And I think GW2 plays into this fairly well, although they straddle the line quite a bit. Sure, they gave us a semi-hack (but not insignificant) “personal story” to sucker the Baldur’s Gate crowd in, and keep posting minigame-filled “living story” updates, but the real meat – and what keeps people playing hundreds of hours instead of scores – is the experience of playing with other people, which cannot be scripted but is also capable of being more authentic. Here’s another example: I can’t name every member of Destiny’s Edge off the top of my head (I’m lucky I even got the guild’s name right). But I can tell you the names of my guild leader(s), fun people I play with online, and Dulfy without blinking. Those are powerful player-driven experiences, and those are more meaningful to me than what they’ve delivered “officially” in-game. And rather than try to control or centralize those experiences, Anet chooses to simply provide the catalyst and then get out of the way. Hence: decentralization, propagation, and instigation.

I think this is a sea change. We can choose to stand defiant in the storm or accept this brave new world.

I really disagree with this. There’s a difference between “controlling” your experience, and “elevating” it. What your saying is simply providing a giant meeting room for player interaction, albeit with colorful and interesting wallpaper and toys. If good storytelling, like that of SWTOR and Skyrim(or even Guild Wars1), are seen as not only highly engaging and immersive, but intrinsic to overall player enjoyment of the game, then why not provide for it?

Anyone can make a glorified chat room, not everyone create a story and world that compels you to lose yourself in it. If what you’re describing above is the wave of the future, I need to find another game genre. :/

Obsidian.1328:

I would say their target audience is 30-somethings…

…It’s almost as if ANet wanted to cater to the modern, teensy, ADD crowd who can’t be bothered with focusing on one thing for longer than a few moments.

So what makes you think the game is for 30-somethings? Just the freemium nature of it? (I read somewhere that while it’s generally assumed that whales run the show, most FTP games – which GW2 basically is – actually really do make most of their money from zillions of small transactions. So I guess… plankton? Too many ocean metaphors…) Neither of us are Anet execs, so we’ll never know, but I’d still say GW2 is a game by 20-somethings, for 20-somethings. Even if it wasn’t intended, hiring 20-somethings to develop and market it naturally pushed it that way.

Obsidian.1328:

What your saying is simply providing a giant meeting room for player interaction, albeit with colorful and interesting wallpaper and toys. If good storytelling, like that of SWTOR and Skyrim(or even Guild Wars1), are seen as not only highly engaging and immersive, but intrinsic to overall player enjoyment of the game, then why not provide for it?

Good storytelling only lasts so long. Player-driven stories can go on for as long as people like your game. MMOs aren’t planning for 100-hour experiences: they’re planning for 1000-hour experiences. Or more. Not even Skyrim can provide that for millions of people.

Don’t get me wrong: they’re still stuffing a huge helping of story in there, just to provide that fancy wallpaper and whatnot. And we’re here, talking about it, right? So there’s definitely substance to it. But I think it’s a mistake to believe that developer-lead story telling is the true focus of any modern, sustainable MMO.

Obsidian.1328:

If what you’re describing above is the wave of the future, I need to find another game genre. :/

Eh, who has the time anymore anyway, right?

Edit: As I realize I’ve gotten wildly off-topic, I withdraw all questions… Nothing to see here…

BobbyStein.2315:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll post it here for safety. We’re working on a system to direct people through the Living World (and other) content to address many of the issues people have in experiencing a linear narrative in a non-linear setting. This is something we’ve been aware of for a while but we’re now able to talk about since the system is being built. I can’t go into specifics just yet, but the long term plan is to provide players with a central mechanism for tracking content and having a better understanding of the stories in the game.

As always, thanks for the constructive feedback.

One question… When? Weeks? Months? This Year?

HiddenNick.7206:

BobbyStein.2315:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll post it here for safety. We’re working on a system to direct people through the Living World (and other) content to address many of the issues people have in experiencing a linear narrative in a non-linear setting. This is something we’ve been aware of for a while but we’re now able to talk about since the system is being built. I can’t go into specifics just yet, but the long term plan is to provide players with a central mechanism for tracking content and having a better understanding of the stories in the game.

As always, thanks for the constructive feedback.

One question… When? Weeks? Months? This Year?

I’d place bets on two to three LS story updates, at the beginning, which is when they tend to throw major changes in.

I wonder if this was sort of a reaction to some of the things discussed in this thread?

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-social-media-side-of-guild-wars-2/

Although ironically I get nearly 0% of my GW2 info from facebook, and less than 0 from twitter. Fan sites and gaming sites have much better, more detailed, and faster access to information.

arabeth.2361:

Obsidian.1328:

I would say their target audience is 30-somethings…

…It’s almost as if ANet wanted to cater to the modern, teensy, ADD crowd who can’t be bothered with focusing on one thing for longer than a few moments.

So what makes you think the game is for 30-somethings? Just the freemium nature of it? (I read somewhere that while it’s generally assumed that whales run the show, most FTP games – which GW2 basically is – actually really do make most of their money from zillions of small transactions. So I guess… plankton? Too many ocean metaphors…) Neither of us are Anet execs, so we’ll never know, but I’d still say GW2 is a game by 20-somethings, for 20-somethings. Even if it wasn’t intended, hiring 20-somethings to develop and market it naturally pushed it that way.

Obsidian.1328:

What your saying is simply providing a giant meeting room for player interaction, albeit with colorful and interesting wallpaper and toys. If good storytelling, like that of SWTOR and Skyrim(or even Guild Wars1), are seen as not only highly engaging and immersive, but intrinsic to overall player enjoyment of the game, then why not provide for it?

Good storytelling only lasts so long. Player-driven stories can go on for as long as people like your game. MMOs aren’t planning for 100-hour experiences: they’re planning for 1000-hour experiences. Or more. Not even Skyrim can provide that for millions of people.

Don’t get me wrong: they’re still stuffing a huge helping of story in there, just to provide that fancy wallpaper and whatnot. And we’re here, talking about it, right? So there’s definitely substance to it. But I think it’s a mistake to believe that developer-lead story telling is the true focus of any modern, sustainable MMO.

Obsidian.1328:

If what you’re describing above is the wave of the future, I need to find another game genre. :/

Eh, who has the time anymore anyway, right?

Edit: As I realize I’ve gotten wildly off-topic, I withdraw all questions… Nothing to see here…

30-somethings… and their kids. Don’t forget that last part. :P I could be wrong, but that’s just how it feels to me. A lot of the random RL jokes and references in the writing seem to be aimed at my generation(30’s). Although I will say that recently the references are for a slightly younger crowd, so perhaps you’re right about ANet hiring more 20-somethings.

And are you implying ANet should cater content to the individual tastes of all of us players? I thought player-driven stories was just good-ole role-playing…you know, like heading out with a few guildies and acting out some scripted scenario that may or may not have anything to do with the actual game setting. Am I wrong?

Trying to derive actual story content from the whims of thousands of fickle gamers…I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Besides, you’ll never satisfy anyone by trying to cater to everyone. Any politician can tell ya that lol. And why would you want to? They are the story-tellers, not us. Wth do we know about writing a great tale anyway?

BobbyStein.2315:

The first bits of the system should be online before the end of the year. It’s a rather big undertaking, so thanks for your patience.

thanks Bobby, sounds good. Is the system retroactive (explains what happened in earlier Living Story steps) or does it only work for new content?

I also hope it’s a bit more in depth than the personal story tab, but maybe that’s just me. Can’t have enough of lore in the game.

I wonder what the reason/difficulties might be, why none of the blogposts can be found in the game in some form. Maybe I’m looking at this too blue-eyed.

I wish they added a historian that lets you replay past living stories in instanced content, just without the same rewards, or even any rewards at all.

It would help those that missed stuff, those that want to see stuff again, those who want to edit things in the wiki like missing dialogues, those who want to revisit certain areas to roleplay…

Tracking new content helps, but reviewing old content helps even more.

Bobby, are there any plans to allow our characters to actually take part in upcoming story arcs as someone who’s involved in what is going on and has a place in it, a role to play? Someone who can speak up, make decisions or at least suggestions, forge friendships, earn trust, make enemies? Something, anything, that gives us the feeling that we’re actually allowed to be a character in your world and your story instead of just, well, the NPCs’ silent servant who runs all the errand while they get all the credit and spotlight?

I don’t want to be The One And Only Chosen One. I just want a voice, a part, an emotional connection, a sense of actually “being there”. All I see is NPCs talking among themselves, moving the story along entirely by themselves with no acknowledgement of all my work on their behalf, and then barking orders at me in one-line non-voiced “conversations” that have no impact on anything.

I can follow the story just fine and it does take a bit of reading up on release pages on the official website, the wiki and paying attention to mails, stories, cut-scenes, dialogue etc in-game.

What irks me is the references here to friends/guildies who don’t know what it’s all about. Yes, a system to give a recap of LS to everyone wanting that will be greatly appreciated, but on the other hand, the majority actually just don’t care. I’m in one of the biggest guilds on SFR and our guild chat is riddled by the same questions over and over and over on patch days with new content releases…

“Hey, what are these <insert token name here, most recently Support Token> for?”

“How do I get those achievements quickly… I don’t care about who wins the election”

“Where can I find refugee items?”

“What do I do with Jade Ticket, where can I find holograms?”

There’s so many players who just click-click-click through the game, they don’t pay attention and aren’t bothered with it either… to state that all these struggle to relate to the story is missing the point altogether, they don’t care about story, only rewards, achievements, progress and click through everything which would’ve explained it in detail, but instead they sit dumb on their chair and need to ask about every little thing.

And I don’t mind explaining/answering on that guild chat when they’re asking – heck even on map chat I’ll provide help

But if you lack the initiative to even bother to check out the story, don’t come complaining it’s not there. I doubt 10% of them even checked out the Audience with a Master instance – iirc it doesn’t give you anything, it’s just lore or backing story, but the achievement/rewards hunters probably don’t check that out.

Obsidian.1328:

Trying to derive actual story content from the whims of thousands of fickle gamers…

I think you’re conflating “story telling” with “experiences.” I probably wasn’t clear enough.

arabeth.2361:

Obsidian.1328:

Trying to derive actual story content from the whims of thousands of fickle gamers…

I think you’re conflating “story telling” with “experiences.” I probably wasn’t clear enough.

Erm…probably not then. I thought we were talking about the pro’s and con’s of the Living Story, were we not?

Explain.

Obsidian.1328:

I thought we were talking about the pro’s and con’s of the Living Story, were we not?

I wasn’t – I was way off topic. Far bigger picture. Sorry!

Anet already perfected this in GW1. The books. Players were pointed at an NPC that gave them a journal and it cataloged the players achievements. When it was full, players could turn it in for a faction boost.

This is as simple a problem to fix as adding a historian NPC to capital cities that players can interact with to get this years Tyrian Almanac. Each page summarizes an event. Maybe there could be a little reward for having your Almanac updated by a chronicler from each event. Signing off on the fact you were there. Maybe a little stamp on the corner of the image. Something consistent.

Here is the way I see it…

1. Players go to historian NPC to get an Almanac. This almanac contains a table of contents that lists the names of each LS event. You can click them to go to that events page.
2. The left side of the almanac features an image from the event (concept art loading screens) and the right side has text summarizing what happened and who was involved.
3. The historian can look at your achievements and stamps each event you participated in, retroactively, for the last year only.
4. A chronicler NPC at each event can take your book, stamp it, and gives you a little thing for helping preserve Tyrian history and having that page authorized during the event.
5. At the end of the year (the beginning of a new Almanac) you can save yours for posterity, or turn it in for a reward based on how many pages are authorized.
6. Players coming back from a break have the ability to say “hey, I can just go to the historian to catch up and pick up or update my Alamanac”

Functionally and thematically, I think that would be awesome. Bobby, PM me, we’ll work out the details

BobbyStein.2315:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll post it here for safety. We’re working on a system to direct people through the Living World (and other) content to address many of the issues people have in experiencing a linear narrative in a non-linear setting. This is something we’ve been aware of for a while but we’re now able to talk about since the system is being built. I can’t go into specifics just yet, but the long term plan is to provide players with a central mechanism for tracking content and having a better understanding of the stories in the game.

I hope its an account wide journal,

- with stories added
- bios of main characters
- a place where you can click on an icon to view a cutscene again (carrying them around in bags is stupid)
- visuals like in the living story section
- even use it as a link to the TP to buy the equipment main characters are using
- clickable links to waypoints
- have a section where as you read the story there are achievement notices attached (as in this part is where you go to get X achievement)
- I’d like it to be a place where all those cool little stories the writers put on this site can be housed.

Deified.7520:

Hello,

You’re turning the achievement system into a quest giver system. Don’t do that, please. Achievements should be a nice reward for players on the side, they should NOT be the main focus of the endgame/living story.

This is exactly what the game is atm. +1
You randomly see players doing their personal story and I posted several times in gw2lfg an announcement : helping players with personal story. it is more fun to do it with a party,
Guess what? no one ever whispered even if I have updated the lfg every 15 min.

BobbyStein.2315:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll post it here for safety. We’re working on a system to direct people through the Living World (and other) content to address many of the issues people have in experiencing a linear narrative in a non-linear setting. This is something we’ve been aware of for a while but we’re now able to talk about since the system is being built. I can’t go into specifics just yet, but the long term plan is to provide players with a central mechanism for tracking content and having a better understanding of the stories in the game.

As always, thanks for the constructive feedback.

I think you would be much better served dropping Living Story entirely. It has proven probably the worst waste of resources one could possibly imagine for the studio that created such an incredible core game.

What happened to Dynamic Events telling a story that you experience organically? Where we become the story?

You guys should have been progressing the story in each game zone via alterations to existing DEs and replacement of old events with new ones that continue the natural progression of the series of events that occurred their previously.

You could even have accentuated regular Dynamic Event creation/modification/evolution across the game world by choosing a zone every month to enhance with Instanced Story content congruent with some big change in the course of events in that zone.

If Frost and Flame had provided a transition to a boat load of new events that were an outgrowth of the story, that would have been content worthy of the game. This linear, inane and mostly temporary content that does nothing to evolve the actual game world really, really needs to go.

The new twice monthly LS schedule has only had one positive attached to it. The pace has accelerated the rate at which we could all come to realize what a colossal waste of resources the concept has been.

It’s not just that it has failed to engage many of us, but it has actually turned some very loyal players completely off to the game and you can count me among them.

So, please, if the goal is to drive players from the game, keep right at it. However, I have to hope and pray that someone over at ANet who is at the controls will pull back on the yoke before the entire title crashes nose first into the ground.