Guild Wars 2

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

They were both jerks, but they each had good reasons for disagreeing with the Player Character. There are lots of theories out as to why they behaved the way they did. Killing the two of them off just because they annoy us would be bad story telling.

Yeah, they’d never kill off a character cause he was unpopular.
Oh, wait….

They won’t be killed

We have the poll about the name of new guild, so we can expect happy end.

Braham will be like “new Eir” Dont worry, he will be fine

Doam.8305:

Unlike Braham and Majory

Caithe is a perfectly fine character if your a Sylvari in fact as a Sylvari I find I’m way to hard on Caithe. She was their for our personal stories and the only personal story character people universally hate is Logan.

What are you saying, I love Logan! Why would anyone “hate” him??

Caithe is as human as everyone else. It wasn’t her fault that her mind got infiltrated by Modremoth, like happened with many Sylvari.

As for the Commander not being assertive, perhaps you missed the part where s/he points out that Braham’s “hard proof” is nothing of the kind. But Braham immediately changed the subject to who was or wasn’t “allowed” to kill an elder dragon. He was not prepared to listen, so what would be the point of continuing to press him? Braham was continually misconstruing or dismissing or evading everything the Commander said, and holding a rational, complex conversation covering many issues while being jumped by 50 foes every 30 seconds is a little hard to pull off even among people that respect each other. It was not a good time to be arguing about respect.

As someone else pointed out, a guild is not an army. “Commander” is pretty much a courtesy title from the Pact, which WAS an army and subject to military discipline at all times. A guild is something looser. Also, you will note, Braham has not agreed to join Dragon’s Watch, so he is not even a guild member. The Commander is no more and no less entitled to Braham’s respect than anyone else.

As much as I’ve always enjoyed Illconcieved’s lucid posts and good sense, I have to disagree that Marjory was “being a jerk” in any way. She was firm in rejecting the Commander’s demands, but the Commander was overstepping the bounds of both friendship and authority. If anything, it was the Commander who came off as the jerk in that interaction, and I disliked it for exactly that reason. It seemed very out of character to me. The whole escalating hysteria of “may be a trap” … “probably a trap” … “certainly a trap” just didn’t ring true.

BrettM.9062:

The whole escalating hysteria of “may be a trap” … “probably a trap” … “certainly a trap” just didn’t ring true.

We cannot say that for sure yet. Lazarus has plenty of opportunity in the future to betray the player, and the Mursaat are known for epic betrayal.

Just guessing from past events, one possibility which cannot be disregarded is that Lazarus could be aiming to soak up the magic released when we kill the next dragon or two.

I wouldn’t terminate either of them by killing them off. I’d sever ties with them and look for replacements. It’s not like either one has been very useful. Marjory has always been more concerned with her personal interests and Braham has a tendency to get hurt. They’re both odious characters.

RoxBuryNine.4210:

I wouldn’t terminate either of them by killing them off. I’d sever ties with them and look for replacements. It’s not like either one has been very useful. Marjory has always been more concerned with her personal interests and Braham has a tendency to get hurt. They’re both odious characters.

But you can say much the same about any of the characters.

Kas? Oh, the shame of being reduced to a commoner! Oh, I’ve got to take care of Jory! And she’s been injured a time or two herself.

Taimi? She’s always been on a power trip. It’s about making her reputation and being THE authority on whatever fixation she has at the moment. Now she’s got her own krewe and is set on being the preeminent dragon researcher of all time. It’s all about her, not the team. How many times has she told the team to go do whatever but she won’t be budging from whatever she’s doing?

Rox? She’s been pretty evasive. “Haven’t seen you for a while, Rox, what have you been up to?” “Oh, stuff. You know … charr stuff. And that guy I was talking to? Um, just an old friend from my mining days. Yeah, that’s the ticket. No need for you to meet him.”

You can make any of the characters look bad without trying hard at all.

I have to agree with everything BrettM. wrote, especially about the Commander’s reactions on several occasions and the story NPCs’ behavior (Taimi’s in particular).

BrettM.9062:

and holding a rational, complex conversation covering many issues while being jumped by 50 foes every 30 seconds is a little hard to pull off even among people that respect each other.

Well, the devs made it “possible” during Caithe’s explaining a very important thing to us: that she was under Mordremoth’s influence when she kidnapped the egg and went solo. It was quite a ridiculous moment to behold, with all the fighting going on during the dialogue. At least the devs seem to have learnt from that mistake and placed the dialogue with Braham in between the fight sequences.

BrettM.9062:

It’s all about her, not the team. How many times has she told the team to go do whatever but she won’t be budging from whatever she’s doing?

To be perfectly fair, she’s never really been part of the team. She’s more of a mascot. She’s been sidelined by the team more than once because she’s the youngest and smallest, even when she had her golem handy. She even had an extra dialog option with you in one of the HoT missions about feeling like she wasn’t treated as part of the team.

Now, without her golem, it’s not like the team would be taking her along anywhere, anyway. She does the most good researching dragons right now. It’s a bonus that it happens to align with her interests.

ATMAvatar.5749:

BrettM.9062:

It’s all about her, not the team. How many times has she told the team to go do whatever but she won’t be budging from whatever she’s doing?

To be perfectly fair, she’s never really been part of the team. She’s more of a mascot. She’s been sidelined by the team more than once because she’s the youngest and smallest, even when she had her golem handy. She even had an extra dialog option with you in one of the HoT missions about feeling like she wasn’t treated as part of the team.

Now, without her golem, it’s not like the team would be taking her along anywhere, anyway. She does the most good researching dragons right now. It’s a bonus that it happens to align with her interests.

Taimi is a part of the team – only, the way we were using her in combat durring LS2-HOT was as logical as using a thief-healer in raids. Her talents lie in the Lab and Asuran politics – not in directly combating Inquest or busting down Mordremoth’s doorstep.

I think promoting herself to bridge-bunny was probably the wisest move she could have made.

I don’t understand all this Braham hate. The PC over-stepped the bounds and deserved it. Simple as that. Also, all this talk of killing off a character just because you don’t like him and he doesn’t obey you is ridiculous. The PC has no authority outside of the Pact.

Another thing, there’s just a lack of character development with the PC. The PC is the typical hero character. What are the PC’s dreams, background, struggles, flaws, addictions, traits, quirks, habits? The only development you see with the PC is in the first half of the personal story, and with….Aurene.

In a way, I understand why. Since this is an MMO where thousands of people play, the PC’s character development has to be as uniform to satisfy as many players as possible.

JTGuevara.9018:

I don’t understand all this Braham hate. The PC over-stepped the bounds and deserved it. Simple as that. Also, all this talk of killing off a character just because you don’t like him and he doesn’t obey you is ridiculous. The PC has no authority outside of the Pact.

Another thing, there’s just a lack of character development with the PC. The PC is the typical hero character. What are the PC’s dreams, background, struggles, flaws, addictions, traits, quirks, habits? The only development you see with the PC is in the first half of the personal story, and with….Aurene.

In a way, I understand why. Since this is an MMO where thousands of people play, the PC’s character development has to be as uniform to satisfy as many players as possible.

I think that’s simply not true – our character is far from the copy-and-paste personality of, say, a FPS shooter protagonist. Our character has a fair amount of characterisation – and a few loose ends (at least, as a human – did my sister die in orr? Why have I not tried to contact my family at the tavern?).

Think back to a light shining in the darkness – the level 60 story before the retaking of Claw Island. The Pale Tree gives us three fears – the fear of getting someone killed by our actions, The fear of being disgraced by those kittenpect us, or the fear of having someone suffer for our actions. At first, they all might seem like reasonable cut and paste fears – but at their core, all choices amounted to the same thing. The Commander simply doesn’t want to be ostracised from their peers.

These fears are exhibited several times throughout the story – the most potent of which occurs when Caithe ran off with the egg, causing the commander to exhibit extreme paranoia. The effects of this betrayal travels well into LS3 – why do you think the commander refuses the job as Pact Martial? Simply because they can no longer trust other people to do their jobs without screwing up and getting people killed. The Commander can’t trust Lazarus to Marjory, just as they want to mother Brahm. The commander failed to realise they had strong opinions about this treatment – and weren’t willing to oblige us with their usual “YES, COMMANDER!”.

At the root, I think the commander is a very caring person who simply fears being alone. The way the story is turning, the commander’s available friends are dwindling – causing them to panic. Perhaps their true companions are moving on, with the commander forced to “watch” the dragons alone? Perhaps the commander feels they are in the same heading down the same precarious situation as Eir with Destinies Edge, where they are forced to helplessly watch as their family fragmented?

This is just my interpretation though.

Westenev.5289:

JTGuevara.9018:

I don’t understand all this Braham hate. The PC over-stepped the bounds and deserved it. Simple as that. Also, all this talk of killing off a character just because you don’t like him and he doesn’t obey you is ridiculous. The PC has no authority outside of the Pact.

Another thing, there’s just a lack of character development with the PC. The PC is the typical hero character. What are the PC’s dreams, background, struggles, flaws, addictions, traits, quirks, habits? The only development you see with the PC is in the first half of the personal story, and with….Aurene.

In a way, I understand why. Since this is an MMO where thousands of people play, the PC’s character development has to be as uniform to satisfy as many players as possible.

I think that’s simply not true – our character is far from the copy-and-paste personality of, say, a FPS shooter protagonist. Our character has a fair amount of characterisation – and a few loose ends (at least, as a human – did my sister die in orr? Why have I not tried to contact my family at the tavern?).

Think back to a light shining in the darkness – the level 60 story before the retaking of Claw Island. The Pale Tree gives us three fears – the fear of getting someone killed by our actions, The fear of being disgraced by those kittenpect us, or the fear of having someone suffer for our actions. At first, they all might seem like reasonable cut and paste fears – but at their core, all choices amounted to the same thing. The Commander simply doesn’t want to be ostracised from their peers.

These fears are exhibited several times throughout the story – the most potent of which occurs when Caithe ran off with the egg, causing the commander to exhibit extreme paranoia. The effects of this betrayal travels well into LS3 – why do you think the commander refuses the job as Pact Martial? Simply because they can no longer trust other people to do their jobs without screwing up and getting people killed. The Commander can’t trust Lazarus to Marjory, just as they want to mother Brahm. The commander failed to realise they had strong opinions about this treatment – and weren’t willing to oblige us with their usual “YES, COMMANDER!”.

At the root, I think the commander is a very caring person who simply fears being alone. The way the story is turning, the commander’s available friends are dwindling – causing them to panic. Perhaps their true companions are moving on, with the commander forced to “watch” the dragons alone? Perhaps the commander feels they are in the same heading down the same precarious situation as Eir with Destinies Edge, where they are forced to helplessly watch as their family fragmented?

This is just my interpretation though.

Mmmm good points. I guess you’re right, he does in some respects. The PC is not faceless. However, the PC as shown currently, has a tendency to take control where the PC shouldn’t. He’s not in any position of authority. Ironically, what I didn’t realize when I last posted, that IS some characterization, a flaw. If anything, those very things you mention, such as the fear of being ostracized and someone suffering because of our actions are the precise things that should be further explored and emphasized. Say a cutscene? Flashback? Past relationships?

To be honest, this kind of dissent is likely to emerge in any group of people that work together for a while, especially in the stressful situations like the ones our protagonists find themselves in. The fact that this happens with the people I consider to be the more headstrong/independent people of the group (Braham, a young Norn, and Marjory, who worked as a private detective) makes it more believable as well.

If now suddenly Rox (a former charr private who values the concept of a warband) and Kasmeer (a relatively dependent person, especially before she became a protagonist) show up to give us the middle finger, then it would start to annoy me as bad storywriting.

However, as much as I found Braham annoying (when replaying the last instance of the new episode I tabbed out to not have to listen to the final conversation again), I think it nicely evokes the feeling of a leader trying to do what he thinks is best and then being told off by a person he respects for less than reasonable motives.
This situation could become interesting in my opinion, depending on how the writers take it further.

Eh, Braham’s blinded by his grief, simple as that. He shouldn’t die because of it. Marjory’s merely wanting to be a better fighter to be of more help to finishing off the elder dragons, so I can see why she wouldn’t take no for an answer.

But, I would like to give Braham a good beat down. Maybe the devs can have an instance where we do end up fighting him and putting him in his place. Make him a hard “boss type” that we can fight. Heck even put a leaderboard of it of who can take him down the fastest.

If they made Braham a difficult, boss-like, foe after all of this time with him a waste of space in combat, it would demonstrate that he was holding back in every fight so far.

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thuggernaut.1250:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Man I could kill everyone who’s ever bad mouthed me the world would be one empty place.

But really. Kill them off just because they disagree with you? Seems like a foolish thing to do. If story killed of everyone who disagreed with the protagonist they would all be the same.

The sidekicks/henchmen can disagree with each other, fine. That’s interesting and amusing. But the moment they disobey, insult, or disrespect the player, they need to go. If they express disagreement, fine, but if they do what Braham and Marjory did (defy orders from the player that has killed two giant dragons in a row), they need to experience retribution.

Then you have no idea about story telling do you.

In a fighting situation there has to be a leader. If the leader isn’t respected, you get infighting and the group accomplishes nothing and falls apart (like what happened to Destiny’s Edge). In this game, our character is the leader and the leader must demand respect. Everyone doesn’t have to agree or like each other, but when push comes to shove they have to take a direct order and give respect.

This “storytelling” might be “realistic” in the sense that some people react that way IRL, but this is Heroic Fantasy, not Reality. Heroes acting that way just doesn’t make any sense in this situation which is why some people object to it.

If they where in the middle of a battle, then yeah, you’d have a point, seeing as the disagreements happened after the battle was over and won, a good leader knows when to give his troops time to cool off so they can talk it out rationally, not walk up to Braham and kick him down a well screaming “THIS IS SPARTA!”. That would just make things worse and splinter the group even more. The way you want the story to go make is seem like “I’M THE COMMANDER YOU WILL RESPECT ME!” runs off sobbing

I can’t imagine why you would think I’m asking for the commander to be emo as well lol. I guess you haven’t seen any military movies/books if you think those are the only options for a commander to demand respect. And no, you can’t only demand respect in the middle of a battle. You must have respect 24/7 so that in the middle of a battle you don’t have to have that convo.

Having been in the army, I know what command is about. There are times to stomp a mud hole in someone and walk it dry, and there are times that would kit be the way to go. But movies and books are so real right? All of them and made by people who have an actual clue, the only war movie I have ever seen that got it right, is We where Soldiers. You don’t see people screaming at each other there.

Who said anything about screaming? You said you were in the army – you think the way to demand respect is by screaming? Watch a Clint Eastwood movie – he commands respect and never raises his voice.

Everyone knows that if it’s in a movie, it has to be real.

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thuggernaut.1250:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Man I could kill everyone who’s ever bad mouthed me the world would be one empty place.

But really. Kill them off just because they disagree with you? Seems like a foolish thing to do. If story killed of everyone who disagreed with the protagonist they would all be the same.

The sidekicks/henchmen can disagree with each other, fine. That’s interesting and amusing. But the moment they disobey, insult, or disrespect the player, they need to go. If they express disagreement, fine, but if they do what Braham and Marjory did (defy orders from the player that has killed two giant dragons in a row), they need to experience retribution.

Then you have no idea about story telling do you.

In a fighting situation there has to be a leader. If the leader isn’t respected, you get infighting and the group accomplishes nothing and falls apart (like what happened to Destiny’s Edge). In this game, our character is the leader and the leader must demand respect. Everyone doesn’t have to agree or like each other, but when push comes to shove they have to take a direct order and give respect.

This “storytelling” might be “realistic” in the sense that some people react that way IRL, but this is Heroic Fantasy, not Reality. Heroes acting that way just doesn’t make any sense in this situation which is why some people object to it.

If they where in the middle of a battle, then yeah, you’d have a point, seeing as the disagreements happened after the battle was over and won, a good leader knows when to give his troops time to cool off so they can talk it out rationally, not walk up to Braham and kick him down a well screaming “THIS IS SPARTA!”. That would just make things worse and splinter the group even more. The way you want the story to go make is seem like “I’M THE COMMANDER YOU WILL RESPECT ME!” runs off sobbing

I can’t imagine why you would think I’m asking for the commander to be emo as well lol. I guess you haven’t seen any military movies/books if you think those are the only options for a commander to demand respect. And no, you can’t only demand respect in the middle of a battle. You must have respect 24/7 so that in the middle of a battle you don’t have to have that convo.

Having been in the army, I know what command is about. There are times to stomp a mud hole in someone and walk it dry, and there are times that would kit be the way to go. But movies and books are so real right? All of them and made by people who have an actual clue, the only war movie I have ever seen that got it right, is We where Soldiers. You don’t see people screaming at each other there.

Who said anything about screaming? You said you were in the army – you think the way to demand respect is by screaming? Watch a Clint Eastwood movie – he commands respect and never raises his voice.

Everyone knows that if it’s in a movie, it has to be real.

Its called “an example”. I could give an example from my own life but it is less likely that lots of people would know what I’m talking about.

Are you trying to say that you don’t believe you can demand respect by speaking quietly?

Djinn.9245:

you can demand respect by speaking quietly?

Sure you can….if you also carry a big stick.

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

you can demand respect by speaking quietly?

Sure you can….if you also carry a big stick.

Not necessarily literally.

Djinn.9245:

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thuggernaut.1250:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Man I could kill everyone who’s ever bad mouthed me the world would be one empty place.

But really. Kill them off just because they disagree with you? Seems like a foolish thing to do. If story killed of everyone who disagreed with the protagonist they would all be the same.

The sidekicks/henchmen can disagree with each other, fine. That’s interesting and amusing. But the moment they disobey, insult, or disrespect the player, they need to go. If they express disagreement, fine, but if they do what Braham and Marjory did (defy orders from the player that has killed two giant dragons in a row), they need to experience retribution.

Then you have no idea about story telling do you.

In a fighting situation there has to be a leader. If the leader isn’t respected, you get infighting and the group accomplishes nothing and falls apart (like what happened to Destiny’s Edge). In this game, our character is the leader and the leader must demand respect. Everyone doesn’t have to agree or like each other, but when push comes to shove they have to take a direct order and give respect.

This “storytelling” might be “realistic” in the sense that some people react that way IRL, but this is Heroic Fantasy, not Reality. Heroes acting that way just doesn’t make any sense in this situation which is why some people object to it.

If they where in the middle of a battle, then yeah, you’d have a point, seeing as the disagreements happened after the battle was over and won, a good leader knows when to give his troops time to cool off so they can talk it out rationally, not walk up to Braham and kick him down a well screaming “THIS IS SPARTA!”. That would just make things worse and splinter the group even more. The way you want the story to go make is seem like “I’M THE COMMANDER YOU WILL RESPECT ME!” runs off sobbing

I can’t imagine why you would think I’m asking for the commander to be emo as well lol. I guess you haven’t seen any military movies/books if you think those are the only options for a commander to demand respect. And no, you can’t only demand respect in the middle of a battle. You must have respect 24/7 so that in the middle of a battle you don’t have to have that convo.

Having been in the army, I know what command is about. There are times to stomp a mud hole in someone and walk it dry, and there are times that would kit be the way to go. But movies and books are so real right? All of them and made by people who have an actual clue, the only war movie I have ever seen that got it right, is We where Soldiers. You don’t see people screaming at each other there.

Who said anything about screaming? You said you were in the army – you think the way to demand respect is by screaming? Watch a Clint Eastwood movie – he commands respect and never raises his voice.

Everyone knows that if it’s in a movie, it has to be real.

Its called “an example”. I could give an example from my own life but it is less likely that lots of people would know what I’m talking about.

Are you trying to say that you don’t believe you can demand respect by speaking quietly?

Your Clint Eastwood example is funny. He would talk quietly while sticking a gun in your face. Try it in real life sometime, I dare you.

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thuggernaut.1250:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Man I could kill everyone who’s ever bad mouthed me the world would be one empty place.

But really. Kill them off just because they disagree with you? Seems like a foolish thing to do. If story killed of everyone who disagreed with the protagonist they would all be the same.

The sidekicks/henchmen can disagree with each other, fine. That’s interesting and amusing. But the moment they disobey, insult, or disrespect the player, they need to go. If they express disagreement, fine, but if they do what Braham and Marjory did (defy orders from the player that has killed two giant dragons in a row), they need to experience retribution.

Then you have no idea about story telling do you.

In a fighting situation there has to be a leader. If the leader isn’t respected, you get infighting and the group accomplishes nothing and falls apart (like what happened to Destiny’s Edge). In this game, our character is the leader and the leader must demand respect. Everyone doesn’t have to agree or like each other, but when push comes to shove they have to take a direct order and give respect.

This “storytelling” might be “realistic” in the sense that some people react that way IRL, but this is Heroic Fantasy, not Reality. Heroes acting that way just doesn’t make any sense in this situation which is why some people object to it.

If they where in the middle of a battle, then yeah, you’d have a point, seeing as the disagreements happened after the battle was over and won, a good leader knows when to give his troops time to cool off so they can talk it out rationally, not walk up to Braham and kick him down a well screaming “THIS IS SPARTA!”. That would just make things worse and splinter the group even more. The way you want the story to go make is seem like “I’M THE COMMANDER YOU WILL RESPECT ME!” runs off sobbing

I can’t imagine why you would think I’m asking for the commander to be emo as well lol. I guess you haven’t seen any military movies/books if you think those are the only options for a commander to demand respect. And no, you can’t only demand respect in the middle of a battle. You must have respect 24/7 so that in the middle of a battle you don’t have to have that convo.

Having been in the army, I know what command is about. There are times to stomp a mud hole in someone and walk it dry, and there are times that would kit be the way to go. But movies and books are so real right? All of them and made by people who have an actual clue, the only war movie I have ever seen that got it right, is We where Soldiers. You don’t see people screaming at each other there.

Who said anything about screaming? You said you were in the army – you think the way to demand respect is by screaming? Watch a Clint Eastwood movie – he commands respect and never raises his voice.

Everyone knows that if it’s in a movie, it has to be real.

Its called “an example”. I could give an example from my own life but it is less likely that lots of people would know what I’m talking about.

Are you trying to say that you don’t believe you can demand respect by speaking quietly?

Your Clint Eastwood example is funny. He would talk quietly while sticking a gun in your face. Try it in real life sometime, I dare you.

I guess you haven’t seen the movies, most of the time he is not holding a gun.

Djinn.9245:

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Djinn.9245:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thuggernaut.1250:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Man I could kill everyone who’s ever bad mouthed me the world would be one empty place.

But really. Kill them off just because they disagree with you? Seems like a foolish thing to do. If story killed of everyone who disagreed with the protagonist they would all be the same.

The sidekicks/henchmen can disagree with each other, fine. That’s interesting and amusing. But the moment they disobey, insult, or disrespect the player, they need to go. If they express disagreement, fine, but if they do what Braham and Marjory did (defy orders from the player that has killed two giant dragons in a row), they need to experience retribution.

Then you have no idea about story telling do you.

In a fighting situation there has to be a leader. If the leader isn’t respected, you get infighting and the group accomplishes nothing and falls apart (like what happened to Destiny’s Edge). In this game, our character is the leader and the leader must demand respect. Everyone doesn’t have to agree or like each other, but when push comes to shove they have to take a direct order and give respect.

This “storytelling” might be “realistic” in the sense that some people react that way IRL, but this is Heroic Fantasy, not Reality. Heroes acting that way just doesn’t make any sense in this situation which is why some people object to it.

If they where in the middle of a battle, then yeah, you’d have a point, seeing as the disagreements happened after the battle was over and won, a good leader knows when to give his troops time to cool off so they can talk it out rationally, not walk up to Braham and kick him down a well screaming “THIS IS SPARTA!”. That would just make things worse and splinter the group even more. The way you want the story to go make is seem like “I’M THE COMMANDER YOU WILL RESPECT ME!” runs off sobbing

I can’t imagine why you would think I’m asking for the commander to be emo as well lol. I guess you haven’t seen any military movies/books if you think those are the only options for a commander to demand respect. And no, you can’t only demand respect in the middle of a battle. You must have respect 24/7 so that in the middle of a battle you don’t have to have that convo.

Having been in the army, I know what command is about. There are times to stomp a mud hole in someone and walk it dry, and there are times that would kit be the way to go. But movies and books are so real right? All of them and made by people who have an actual clue, the only war movie I have ever seen that got it right, is We where Soldiers. You don’t see people screaming at each other there.

Who said anything about screaming? You said you were in the army – you think the way to demand respect is by screaming? Watch a Clint Eastwood movie – he commands respect and never raises his voice.

Everyone knows that if it’s in a movie, it has to be real.

Its called “an example”. I could give an example from my own life but it is less likely that lots of people would know what I’m talking about.

Are you trying to say that you don’t believe you can demand respect by speaking quietly?

Your Clint Eastwood example is funny. He would talk quietly while sticking a gun in your face. Try it in real life sometime, I dare you.

I guess you haven’t seen the movies, most of the time he is not holding a gun.

In Heart Brake Ridge, he’s normally inflicting pain or knocking someone out to gain that respect. So not really fitting to demanding respect with a quiet voice.

Better if we sacrifice Braham and bring back Prince Rurik.

Codes.6870:

Better if we sacrifice Braham and bring back Prince Rurik.

Do you think Lazarus might have a solution for this?

Westenev.5289:

Codes.6870:

Better if we sacrifice Braham and bring back Prince Rurik.

Do you think Lazarus might have a solution for this?

But would he then have a fight with Uncle trombone? He has his sword after all.

I dont think that we need to kill these characters off for clashing with us. I do feel that, if the npcs are going to be written to engage in conflict or confrontation with us, we need to be allowed to option to respond differently than is currently the case. I have no problem with the idea of my character being a member of a group that has internal conflict but which sticks together because no one else can get the job done. But if the writers are going to insist on that approach to the group dynamic then let me take part.

As much as i dislike the Braham heel twist, I’m glad you guys wanting to George RR Martin the story aren’t the lead writers.

The only thing that needs to occur is for these characters to meet humility in some karmic form. Braham could learn that his newly acquired tool isn’t capable enough and needs to be amplified, by Taimi for example. Marjory could learn not to easily trust people and have to be saved by Kass from the lies being sold to her from Laz (if he is being deceitful at all).

I only hope they kill off Marjory because I’m sick of hearing her absolutely monotone voice. Does her voice actor ever exercise more than one chord?

Eggbutt.6213:

I only hope they kill off Marjory because I’m sick of hearing her absolutely monotone voice. Does her voice actor ever exercise more than one chord?

Originally, Marjory was brought in as a film-noir-style hardboiled detective; she’s been directed to sound as monotonic as Bogart in The Maltese Falcon.

Of course, given that her role as a detective has long since been thrown out the window (for good reason), perhaps the story writers can suggest that it’s also time to ask her voice actor to drop the sound of that role, too.

I don’t really want them death, but I do hope their plans blow up in their face so we can have an extremely satisfying “I told you so” moment.

Reasons aside, some of these characters need to be gone in some way or another. “Character focus of the month” just to keep these people in the story is getting tiresome to me. It needs a sharper focus on a few people. Long open stories are suffering from the need to fill some imaginary character quota.

Funny but I thought that the discord in the little group where Marjory was not willing to simply be told what to do as if she was a subordinate and Braham’s anger over what he saw as the disrespect for his mother’s (and Snaff’s) legacy was the first sign of any true “mature content” in the story line.

These are not soldiers in our own little army, they’re heroes and almost by definition a hero is someone who’s willing to stand up to and do what they think is right. When that’s at odds with what our character wants then a clash is inevitable and correct. Before now the characters were all just tagging along with us on our merry japes, now they have a little character of their own and their own goals. This will allow for a much more interesting story-line, IMO.

I suspect that they will return with a preview of the new elite specs before the next expansion but then I remember that norn who go to fight Jormag and fail tend to come back as icebrood so…

Pifil.5193:

Funny but I thought that the discord in the little group where Marjory was not willing to simply be told what to do as if she was a subordinate and Braham’s anger over what he saw as the disrespect for his mother’s (and Snaff’s) legacy was the first sign of any true “mature content” in the story line.

These are not soldiers in our own little army, they’re heroes and almost by definition a hero is someone who’s willing to stand up to and do what they think is right. When that’s at odds with what our character wants then a clash is inevitable and correct. Before now the characters were all just tagging along with us on our merry japes, now they have a little character of their own and their own goals. This will allow for a much more interesting story-line, IMO.

I suspect that they will return with a preview of the new elite specs before the next expansion but then I remember that norn who go to fight Jormag and fail tend to come back as icebrood so…

You think “I’m glad you didn’t join Destiny’s Edge. My Mother wouldn’t want you in there.” is mature? LOL

No, what people are complaining about is characters being immature or selfish.

Djinn.9245:

Pifil.5193:

Funny but I thought that the discord in the little group where Marjory was not willing to simply be told what to do as if she was a subordinate and Braham’s anger over what he saw as the disrespect for his mother’s (and Snaff’s) legacy was the first sign of any true “mature content” in the story line.

These are not soldiers in our own little army, they’re heroes and almost by definition a hero is someone who’s willing to stand up to and do what they think is right. When that’s at odds with what our character wants then a clash is inevitable and correct. Before now the characters were all just tagging along with us on our merry japes, now they have a little character of their own and their own goals. This will allow for a much more interesting story-line, IMO.

I suspect that they will return with a preview of the new elite specs before the next expansion but then I remember that norn who go to fight Jormag and fail tend to come back as icebrood so…

You think “I’m glad you didn’t join Destiny’s Edge. My Mother wouldn’t want you in there.” is mature? LOL

No, what people are complaining about is characters being immature or selfish.

I am not opposed to NPCs being immature or selfish…plenty of people are. My concern is not being allowed to avoid or ignore such people.

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Pifil.5193:

Funny but I thought that the discord in the little group where Marjory was not willing to simply be told what to do as if she was a subordinate and Braham’s anger over what he saw as the disrespect for his mother’s (and Snaff’s) legacy was the first sign of any true “mature content” in the story line.

These are not soldiers in our own little army, they’re heroes and almost by definition a hero is someone who’s willing to stand up to and do what they think is right. When that’s at odds with what our character wants then a clash is inevitable and correct. Before now the characters were all just tagging along with us on our merry japes, now they have a little character of their own and their own goals. This will allow for a much more interesting story-line, IMO.

I suspect that they will return with a preview of the new elite specs before the next expansion but then I remember that norn who go to fight Jormag and fail tend to come back as icebrood so…

You think “I’m glad you didn’t join Destiny’s Edge. My Mother wouldn’t want you in there.” is mature? LOL

No, what people are complaining about is characters being immature or selfish.

I am not opposed to NPCs being immature or selfish…plenty of people are. My concern is not being allowed to avoid or ignore punch such people.

FTFY

Rauderi.8706:

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Pifil.5193:

Funny but I thought that the discord in the little group where Marjory was not willing to simply be told what to do as if she was a subordinate and Braham’s anger over what he saw as the disrespect for his mother’s (and Snaff’s) legacy was the first sign of any true “mature content” in the story line.

These are not soldiers in our own little army, they’re heroes and almost by definition a hero is someone who’s willing to stand up to and do what they think is right. When that’s at odds with what our character wants then a clash is inevitable and correct. Before now the characters were all just tagging along with us on our merry japes, now they have a little character of their own and their own goals. This will allow for a much more interesting story-line, IMO.

I suspect that they will return with a preview of the new elite specs before the next expansion but then I remember that norn who go to fight Jormag and fail tend to come back as icebrood so…

You think “I’m glad you didn’t join Destiny’s Edge. My Mother wouldn’t want you in there.” is mature? LOL

No, what people are complaining about is characters being immature or selfish.

I am not opposed to NPCs being immature or selfish…plenty of people are. My concern is not being allowed to avoid or ignore punch such people.

FTFY

QFT

Djinn.9245:

You think “I’m glad you didn’t join Destiny’s Edge. My Mother wouldn’t want you in there.” is mature? LOL

No, what people are complaining about is characters being immature or selfish.

No and if you read what I actually said you’ll see that I didn’t say anything about Braham’s behaviour or dialog being mature or not. I was talking about the story direction not the dialog. There’s a difference.

In this case one could dismissively say this is just him being “immature” but I think that it’s less about his maturity and more about his anger. He had a lot of unresolved issues around his mother and her death has robbed him of any chance to resolve them. He’s angry with the entire world, he interpreted your actions as disrespectful to his mother’s memory and sacrifice (probably largely due to that anger) and is lashing out at you and everyone around him.

You may simply see this as him being selfish or immature, I see it as characters having their own motivation and their own ideas of what should be done; they’re not just “props” or exposition devices anymore.

Ashen.2907:

I am not opposed to NPCs being immature or selfish…plenty of people are. My concern is not being allowed to avoid or ignore such people.

It’s important to realise that you never will be able to avoid or ignore them; this is an MMO story line being developed with fairly limited resources so the story can never branch and you will have to follow the same story as every other (ex)Pact commander out there.

Pifil.5193:

Ashen.2907:

I am not opposed to NPCs being immature or selfish…plenty of people are. My concern is not being allowed to avoid or ignore such people.

It’s important to realise that you never will be able to avoid or ignore them; this is an MMO story line being developed with fairly limited resources so the story can never branch and you will have to follow the same story as every other (ex)Pact commander out there.

One of the things that I think The Secret World did right, and every other MMO that I’m familiar with did wrong, is that TSW did not make you “THE” hero. WoW, GW, everything else, you are.

We would be better off, story-wise, as part of the solution to saving the world than as the person leading the effort. Not only does it lead to the annoyance of “why am I being so kitteningly foolish here”, and the conflict of why a leader is so … insignificant, but it really starts to hurt the future.

I mean, we led the pact to destroy the dragons. Every one of us is THE single lone commander of the pact that did it. Now … what next? Can’t really promote us. Instead, we get “importance inflation” biting us.

If, instead, we were a critical part of the solution – a footsoldier who achieved amazing things, but not the leader, not setting direction, not “THE” anything … so much less conflict between the realities around us and what role our character played in the story.

Pifil.5193:

Ashen.2907:

I am not opposed to NPCs being immature or selfish…plenty of people are. My concern is not being allowed to avoid or ignore such people.

It’s important to realise that you never will be able to avoid or ignore them; this is an MMO story line being developed with fairly limited resources so the story can never branch and you will have to follow the same story as every other (ex)Pact commander out there.

Of course. I am putting forward a preference for the story to be written in such a way as to have the PC avoid and ignore the offending characters, removing them from the story going forward.

Ashen.2907:

Of course. I am putting forward a preference for the story to be written in such a way as to have the PC avoid and ignore the offending characters, removing them from the story going forward.

Sadly, Braham has just done something of major importance to the lore of the story. Like it or not, a lot of the story will center around him now. Even if we’re not in the same area as him, he’s going to be inescapable.

The real problem for me is that Rox and Garm are with him. Remember, Rox lost her entire family (her first warband, family for a charr) in one sudden and tragic accident. Not only did she lose everyone, she also had to deal with survivor’s guilt and suddenly being gladium. She was truly alone, and that must have been devastating for her. She sees what Braham is going through and wants to be there for him, but she doesn’t realize that what he’s feeling is more self-centered than what she felt. Braham isn’t alone, he just wants to pretend that he is. Rox is likely going to get killed trying to keep him alive.

And Garm? Well, there’s only four people I can think of that Garm might follow. Two of them are Rox and Braham, and as they’re the only two together, it makes sense that he’d follow them. And… yeah. He’s likely going to die too.

The annoying character we can’t avoid is going to drag down other characters with him.

Palador.2170:

Ashen.2907:

Of course. I am putting forward a preference for the story to be written in such a way as to have the PC avoid and ignore the offending characters, removing them from the story going forward.

Sadly, Braham has just done something of major importance to the lore of the story. Like it or not, a lot of the story will center around him now. Even if we’re not in the same area as him, he’s going to be inescapable.

The real problem for me is that Rox and Garm are with him. Remember, Rox lost her entire family (her first warband, family for a charr) in one sudden and tragic accident. Not only did she lose everyone, she also had to deal with survivor’s guilt and suddenly being gladium. She was truly alone, and that must have been devastating for her. She sees what Braham is going through and wants to be there for him, but she doesn’t realize that what he’s feeling is more self-centered than what she felt. Braham isn’t alone, he just wants to pretend that he is. Rox is likely going to get killed trying to keep him alive.

And Garm? Well, there’s only four people I can think of that Garm might follow. Two of them are Rox and Braham, and as they’re the only two together, it makes sense that he’d follow them. And… yeah. He’s likely going to die too.

The annoying character we can’t avoid is going to drag down other characters with him.

You’re right. And apparently Anet doesn’t understand that this isn’t “good drama”, this is “frustrating stupidity”. I’ll be that there are silly executives there right now saying “the fact that players are arguing about this means this was a great decision”.

Quite a late reply for a thread:

I would like to suggest that we get at least one instance in LS3 to knock some sense into Braham. If Marjory goes rogue because of Lazarus, we should get a chance to knock some sense into both Kasmeer and Marjory.

baliwsirg.4396:

Quite a late reply for a thread:

I would like to suggest that we get at least one instance in LS3 to knock some sense into Braham. If Marjory goes rogue because of Lazarus, we should get a chance to knock some sense into both Kasmeer and Marjory.

This sounds like a great setup to add more dungeons, given that the story modes for most of the original ones were based around reuniting Destiny’s Edge. We could have the same for Dragon’s Watch.

We’ve had hardly any additions since release, with just 1 path to Twilight Arbor, and 3 dungeons that 1) absolutely require a group, ruining the solo experience, and 2) Only have 1 path.

baliwsirg.4396:

Quite a late reply for a thread:

I would like to suggest that we get at least one instance in LS3 to knock some sense into Braham. If Marjory goes rogue because of Lazarus, we should get a chance to knock some sense into both Kasmeer and Marjory.

People keep complaining that Braham and Marjory are being immature and insolent. The preferred solution seems to be a chance to knock them around (with second place going to the option to unfriend them forever and stalk off in a snit). And now apparently we should also have a chance to knock around anyone associated with someone we disagree with, like Kasmeer, despite the fact that Kas has done nothing to cross us in any way. Junior high drama at its finest.

Wow. When did knocking people around become a mature response? Or do people think that an immature behavior is the best response to immature behavior?

Personally, I would prefer that the Commander continue to be depicted as a mature individual who leads by providing a good example. I would prefer that the Commander show restraint when a friend acts out in a temporary display of pique. I would prefer that the Commander try to repair relationships diplomatically instead of instantly writing them off. Because these are the things that mature people do instead of screaming abuse and knocking people around whenever things don’t go exactly as they wish.

BrettM.9062:

Personally, I would prefer that the Commander continue to be depicted as a mature individual who leads by providing a good example. I would prefer that the Commander show restraint when a friend acts out in a temporary display of pique. I would prefer that the Commander try to repair relationships diplomatically instead of instantly writing them off. Because these are the things that mature people do instead of screaming abuse and knocking people around whenever things don’t go exactly as they wish.

I agree, and right now we could mend things with Braham. In fact, the Commander was trying to be nice. Braham wasn’t having any of it.

The real problem is that we see where Braham is headed, and it’s going to get a lot of people hurt or killed. At what point do you give up on diplomacy and employ more drastic measures (not necessarily violence) to stop an oncoming tragedy? Instead, we’ll have to stand there and watch it happen, and then accept Braham back with open arms no matter who he’s killed. We don’t want that. (Or, at least I don’t.) We’re speaking out now to let ANet know that’s crap storytelling and we want better.

BrettM.9062:

Wow. When did knocking people around become a mature response?

I wouldn’t agree to it about Marjory, but to a Norn, that is the mature response. :P

I don’t even really see where the whinginga bout Marjory comes in. She’s a competent investigator and needed to be assertive with Commander to remind him/her about that.

Braham… I get the idea that he’s irrational from grief, but seriously, Commander has lost a lot more and ends up being this ultra-patient, almost mincing, paragon of patience. It’s unbecoming for some character backgrounds. (Blood Legion, rep!) Then again, a mega-hook to the chin isn’t a part of some others.

So, my big hope is that, when it comes to a critical moment that Commander actually settles Braham down, we get a choice of [Talk to him | Deck him]. We’d get the same resolution as an ending, but the dialog would be adjusted to how we get there.

Well, the sad truth is that because the model in GW2 story is, like most MMOs, that you are THE big kitten hero, they have to write a generic story, and your actions are always going to mismatch your self-image at some point.

TSW did better, because if I’m just a foot soldier – a hugely important pact member, but not THE leader – then it’s much more reasonable that I’m not able to change the direction of things the way I think I should.

“I won’t be told what I can and can’t do.” – Marjory

I understand her decision, but what’s the point of having a Guild hierarchy if its not respected? Why join the commanders guild if they’re just going to branch-off whenever they disagree with a decision?

As for Braham – never cared for him. He’s impatient and immature by nature – so I didn’t take his little tirade that seriously.