Guild Wars 2

Valis.5907:

“I won’t be told what I can and can’t do.” – Marjory

I understand her decision, but what’s the point of having a Guild hierarchy if its not respected? Why join the commanders guild if they’re just going to branch-off whenever they disagree with a decision?

^THIS.
Why even join the guild if you are just going to do your own thing anyway!?

Braham is right about one thing though. Caudecus is none his concern. It’s entirely a human matter.

JTGuevara.9018:

I don’t understand all this Braham hate. The PC over-stepped the bounds and deserved it. Simple as that. Also, all this talk of killing off a character just because you don’t like him and he doesn’t obey you is ridiculous. The PC has no authority outside of the Pact.

Another thing, there’s just a lack of character development with the PC. The PC is the typical hero character. What are the PC’s dreams, background, struggles, flaws, addictions, traits, quirks, habits? The only development you see with the PC is in the first half of the personal story, and with….Aurene.

In a way, I understand why. Since this is an MMO where thousands of people play, the PC’s character development has to be as uniform to satisfy as many players as possible.

The PC has no authority with in the pact either.

DarcShriek.5829:

Braham is right about one thing though. Caudecus is none his concern. It’s entirely a human matter.

Eir wouldn’t have thought so.

The fact is that Caudecus can take the human faction out of the fight against the EDs, and THAT is a concern for everyone. Braham may not think so, but we know better.

What is the evidence that Caudecus would take the humans out of the fight against the EDs? Also, we shouldn’t kill the remaining EDs, just killing two is causing problems with magic.

There is no evidence that Eir would involve herself in this. You’re just making stuff out out of nothing.

DarcShriek.5829:

What is the evidence that Caudecus would take the humans out of the fight against the EDs? Also, we shouldn’t kill the remaining EDs, just killing two is causing problems with magic.

There is no evidence that Eir would involve herself in this. You’re just making stuff out out of nothing.

It took a dragon lieutenant attacking the world summit while she was present for Jennah to commit any forces towards the elder dragons. Even then, she would only part with some strategists because centaur opponents aren’t exactly bright.

Caudecus has made it clear that his endgame has always been taking the human crown. When (not if) he starts his civil war for the throne, Jennah will be forced to pull back what forces she’s committed to the dragons.

The other races will be prepared for it, since they’re used to humans pulling out of dragon fights, but it will still hurt to lose resources.

DarcShriek.5829:

Braham is right about one thing though. Caudecus is none his concern. It’s entirely a human matter.

He’s an outspoken opponent of the charr-human truce. If he succeeds and rules Kryta, it will most likely lead to another Charr-Human conflict, or at the very least cease all cooperation between the two races. This would negatively affect all of Tyria, especially with Jormag en Primordus on our doorstep and the Pact mostly in ruins. We can’t afford to be divided.

And even IF Kryta being lead by an evil dictator would somehow miraculously not affect the rest of Tyria in any way, if Braham doesn’t care about other people’s problems, then why should we give a kitten about his?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

DarcShriek.5829:

Braham is right about one thing though. Caudecus is none his concern. It’s entirely a human matter.

He’s an outspoken opponent of the charr-human truce. If he succeeds and rules Kryta, it will most likely lead to another Charr-Human conflict, or at the very least cease all cooperation between the two races. This would negatively affect all of Tyria, especially with Jormag en Primordus on our doorstep and the Pact mostly in ruins. We can’t afford to be divided.

And even IF Kryta being lead by an evil dictator would somehow miraculously not affect the rest of Tyria in any way, if Braham doesn’t care about other people’s problems, then why should we give a kitten about his?

So if one country is putting the wrong person in charge of their government, then the other countries have an obligation to prevent it?

If someone attempts to overthrow a legal government it would not necessarily be inappropriate for allies to assist against the coup attempt. Particularly if the would be usurper is in league with enemies of all involved.

DarcShriek.5829:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

DarcShriek.5829:

Braham is right about one thing though. Caudecus is none his concern. It’s entirely a human matter.

He’s an outspoken opponent of the charr-human truce. If he succeeds and rules Kryta, it will most likely lead to another Charr-Human conflict, or at the very least cease all cooperation between the two races. This would negatively affect all of Tyria, especially with Jormag en Primordus on our doorstep and the Pact mostly in ruins. We can’t afford to be divided.

And even IF Kryta being lead by an evil dictator would somehow miraculously not affect the rest of Tyria in any way, if Braham doesn’t care about other people’s problems, then why should we give a kitten about his?

So if one country is putting the wrong person in charge of their government, then the other countries have an obligation to prevent it?

1) I never said that. You said it’s entirely a human matter. I said that it’s not entirely a human matter. Meaning that Kryta being lead by an evil dictator will affect other nations. Especially since Caudecus opposes the Charr-Human piece treaty.
2) If Caudecus succeeds, then Kryta didn’t put the wrong person in charge. An insurgent staged a coup and illegally took the throne by force, big difference.
3) Like Ashen already said, it would not be inappropriate for allies to intervene when the legal goverment gets overthrown by the head of the White Mantle. An order that doesn’t exactly have the best reputation..

Simply put, Kryta being lead by Caudecus would have negative repercussions on Tyria, not just humanity. That makes it everyone’s business.

Thinking otherwise would be ludicrous. Imagine if the same thing was about to happen to one of the other races. Each race has a rival faction of the same race, for the humans it’s the White Mantle.
Imagine if the Sons of Svanir ruled the Norn and they all sided with Jormag?
Imagine if the Flame Legion ruled all the charr again and they decide end the peace treaty?
The list goes on.
Having one of the 5 major races being lead by their evil rival is bad for everyone, not just that race in particular, and that makes it everyone’s business.
Not just a <insert 1 race> matter.

As norn don’t believe in the formal Hierarchy that humans have, it’s reasonable for norn to assume that if Queen Jenna can’t maintain her rule, then she doesn’t deserve to rule. The only outside race that may have a stake in this would be the charr. If they value the peace treaty, the might be compelled to step in.

DarcShriek.5829:

As norn don’t believe in the formal Hierarchy that humans have, it’s reasonable for norn to assume that if Queen Jenna can’t maintain her rule, then she doesn’t deserve to rule. The only outside race that may have a stake in this would be the charr. If they value the peace treaty, the might be compelled to step in.

While you have a point about the norn views, I think that’s only for a fair contest to her ability to rule. Otherwise, it would be fair to say that the norn deserved to lose to Jormag, or to be driven from their homes by the Molten Alliance. They clearly don’t agree.

If Caudecus was to take over through political means, they would likely feel it’s her fight alone. But he’s not planning to “play fair” and meet her on the grounds of who’s the best leader, he’s planning on attacking her. The norn have no problems with defending an ally that’s under attack.

Now, as to the other races? Well, don’t forget that the White Mantle (posing as bandits) have strong ties to both the Nightmare Court and the Inquest, and there’s clear signs that they support the Separatists as well. If the White Mantle rises to power, threats to the sylvari, asura, and charr all grow.

Oh, and Lion’s Arch would be in trouble as well. That city used to be part of Kryta, and I don’t think anyone assumes that Caudecus would allow it to remain separate and free from his control. The Lion Guard would have to pull back to defend the city, so there goes all the guards on the trade routes. I’m sure the Sons of Svanir would appreciate that.

In short, if Caudecus and the White Mantle following him win, all the major races are going to have a harder time of it.

DarcShriek.5829:

As norn don’t believe in the formal Hierarchy that humans have, it’s reasonable for norn to assume that if Queen Jenna can’t maintain her rule, then she doesn’t deserve to rule. The only outside race that may have a stake in this would be the charr. If they value the peace treaty, the might be compelled to step in.

Whether or not Norn believe in formal hierarchy (for their own culture) has no bearing on whether or not they have a stake in the matter being discussed. Their stake in the matter is essentially the same as everyone else’s…namely the future of their race.

Palador.2170:

DarcShriek.5829:

As norn don’t believe in the formal Hierarchy that humans have, it’s reasonable for norn to assume that if Queen Jenna can’t maintain her rule, then she doesn’t deserve to rule. The only outside race that may have a stake in this would be the charr. If they value the peace treaty, the might be compelled to step in.

While you have a point about the norn views, I think that’s only for a fair contest to her ability to rule. Otherwise, it would be fair to say that the norn deserved to lose to Jormag, or to be driven from their homes by the Molten Alliance. They clearly don’t agree.

If Caudecus was to take over through political means, they would likely feel it’s her fight alone. But he’s not planning to “play fair” and meet her on the grounds of who’s the best leader, he’s planning on attacking her. The norn have no problems with defending an ally that’s under attack.

Now, as to the other races? Well, don’t forget that the White Mantle (posing as bandits) have strong ties to both the Nightmare Court and the Inquest, and there’s clear signs that they support the Separatists as well. If the White Mantle rises to power, threats to the sylvari, asura, and charr all grow.

Oh, and Lion’s Arch would be in trouble as well. That city used to be part of Kryta, and I don’t think anyone assumes that Caudecus would allow it to remain separate and free from his control. The Lion Guard would have to pull back to defend the city, so there goes all the guards on the trade routes. I’m sure the Sons of Svanir would appreciate that.

In short, if Caudecus and the White Mantle following him win, all the major races are going to have a harder time of it.

Care to explain why the norn didn’t interfere in the Charr/Human war then?

DarcShriek.5829:

Palador.2170:

DarcShriek.5829:

As norn don’t believe in the formal Hierarchy that humans have, it’s reasonable for norn to assume that if Queen Jenna can’t maintain her rule, then she doesn’t deserve to rule. The only outside race that may have a stake in this would be the charr. If they value the peace treaty, the might be compelled to step in.

While you have a point about the norn views, I think that’s only for a fair contest to her ability to rule. Otherwise, it would be fair to say that the norn deserved to lose to Jormag, or to be driven from their homes by the Molten Alliance. They clearly don’t agree.

If Caudecus was to take over through political means, they would likely feel it’s her fight alone. But he’s not planning to “play fair” and meet her on the grounds of who’s the best leader, he’s planning on attacking her. The norn have no problems with defending an ally that’s under attack.

Now, as to the other races? Well, don’t forget that the White Mantle (posing as bandits) have strong ties to both the Nightmare Court and the Inquest, and there’s clear signs that they support the Separatists as well. If the White Mantle rises to power, threats to the sylvari, asura, and charr all grow.

Oh, and Lion’s Arch would be in trouble as well. That city used to be part of Kryta, and I don’t think anyone assumes that Caudecus would allow it to remain separate and free from his control. The Lion Guard would have to pull back to defend the city, so there goes all the guards on the trade routes. I’m sure the Sons of Svanir would appreciate that.

In short, if Caudecus and the White Mantle following him win, all the major races are going to have a harder time of it.

Care to explain why the norn didn’t interfere in the Charr/Human war then?

Because maybe that is a totally different thing?

You are comparing an interspecies conflict that had been going on since before the Norn even met these species, between two races that that were not hostile to them, to one of their allies being illegally taken over by a faction that’s hostile to everyone?

Not to mention back then, Jormag wasn’t as much of a threat as he is now. Jormag absorbed the power of at least one other dragon, maybe even more. If jormag wipes out Hoelbrak it’s game over for them. And this time the orders are in no shape to help them out. They need assistance from the other races.

The Norn are not going to get this help if they act like Braham and say “lol just human crap”. By that logic, Jormag taking their land was “just a norn matter”.

You make it sound like the other races are a bunch of bullies and that the humans have no choice but to do as the other races demand.

DarcShriek.5829:

You make it sound like the other races are a bunch of bullies and that the humans have no choice but to do as the other races demand.

I’m pretty sure I did no such thing. And if I somehow did, it was definitely not my intent. How did you come to that conclusion?

DarcShriek.5829:

Care to explain why the norn didn’t interfere in the Charr/Human war then?

As I understand it, there’s two reasons.

First is the fact that the Human/Charr war has always been just that, a war. It has never been anything else. Open and direct conflict, no political backstabbing or anything like that. (Yes, on each side there might be some of that, but not in the actual conflict between the two races.)

Second is that they’ve long considered both humans and charr to be allies. They can get along well with both, and usually do. So, which side should they take?

Braham is an annoying liability. I’d not miss him at all. Majory on the other hand is a pillar of the story.

I have a theory!

It’s not even about story telling as much it is for Anet to reduce production costs. The best way to do it is just to get rid of some characters and put them in the off-screen action. That way you can much better and much easier focus your resources into what is really important.

You can always use “woki-toki Taimi”-like conversation with off-screen characters to get information from them, or messages, and then later in the storyline put them again all together for the epic story finish!

It seems like a logic approach to me if we think about Anet’s resources, cuz for sure, they are in some problems atm.

I wouldn’t even be surprised if this story is rushed, and if Anet is thinking of making GW3 instead 3rd expansion, for the whole purpose of working on new engine, cuz this one they are having, is eating too much time and resources, and is a bit outdated.
But that is maybe me thinking a bit too far

-Kasmeer = waifu
-Marjory = Kasmeer’s girl
-Kill Marjory = sad Kasmeer
-Sad waifu = sad lifeu

Marjory clearly overreacted, but I can see the merit in what she’s doing.

Braham… seems completely unreasonable, though I do blame the PC for not mentioning the fact that even the elders of the tribe say that the story of the tooth is just there to keep the most reckless people from charging off against Jormag.

One weapon that can scratch Jormag in the entirity of the army is… not a great plan. It would make much more sense to see if elementalists could potentially study the enchantment and reproduce it, or at least create something of similar or greater effect.

Coffietire.2783:

-Kasmeer = waifu
-Marjory = Kasmeer’s girl
-Kill Marjory = sad Kasmeer
-Sad waifu = sad lifeu

Whatu?

To be honest I actually disagree… I think it was ballsy for a-net to have the chars be sassy at all.

It was good to see them actually have their own motivations and goals that trancend just being one dimensional companions and partners, what makes for interesting characters is growth and willingness to be more interesting.

Brahams actions are largely regarded as “sassy and childish” but people forget that as much of an edgelord as he has become he did literally loose his mother right infront of him.

Imagine that if it was you for a second, im not saying he was perfect by any means but he did SEE it happen which is not the same as HEARING about it. It had a strong, and deeply traumatic effect on Braham and understandably changed him into a bitter and more angry character.

As for Jory, she lost her sister, she also left the ministry guard because she refused to be told what to do in the first place. Her entire character from the start was a rebel and a detective, she called you the boss because she went along with it, not because she regarded you as her superior, at any point.

Jory is actually the most interesting member of DE 2.0 next to Kas with both having some particularly deep family storylines yet untold, like the fact Jory has more than one sibling, a complex relationship with her father, a mother whom she has a distant relationship with and a dead sister whom shes haunted by, literally.

Then take Kasmeer, who was a noble who lost literally everything, whos family was torn apart all because of her brother Kyle who basically got himself into trouble with shady characters. Her father ended up in debters prison, and rotted to death there never knowing freedom, and she lost literally everything to her brothers greed except one thing, her stuffed bear, which she later lost anyway. Jory was literally her lifeline and the only thing she had left by the end of that mess.

Taimi… is a bit of a mary sue, even if she has this love/hate vibe for me, Taimi started off great as this chaotic character that just appeared into the chaos and mess of things and claimed to know everyone. I strongly suspected at first she was just some spy working for Scarlet but being her fangirl made her alot more hilarious and complex. But the only thing I didnt like was her initally bratty personality and how angsty she was about giving her invention away rather selfishly kitten ing all of Tyria for a brief moment because she wanted the credit.

I get that it was her invention, but that was annoying for me. It was however redeemed when she finally learned to depend on her friends instead of being a brat and after that she grew on me heavily. Since then, ive really come to like her as a character and shes all but replaced Zojja at this point who is frankly a spare part since Zojja’s role as scientist extrodinare is literally now Taimi’s role.

The weak link in DE 2.0 is Rox, unfortunatley. Rox entire story was “notice me Senpai Rytlock” which eventually boiled down to “no I dont want to join your warband anyway” and wasted the entire plot on her pride and personal desire to help her friends. Its understandable they tried to make something of her but Rox has never really “shone” for me, at any point.

Thats her biggest weakness, she is just “there” a spare part in the group who honestly wouldnt be missed if she died because her story has the least impact of the group. She has no real story at all, her backstory is sad, sure, she was part of the stone warband, it got destroyed, things went badly, but she never really… does anything with that, or with herself.

She has no growth.

This is where Braham/Marjory really have excelled as they are the two most developing members of DE 2.0

In conclusion, I think its unfair to hate on them for actually being interesting, because at least they’re doing something, which is more than just standing there and looking pretty, like Zojja is right now.

Part 2:

Continueing from my previous post ill finish with this, saying the following:

Regarding the origional Destinies Edge.

Eir was probably the weakest link in that entire camp.

Eir had no story going for her aside from being the leader of the group, and never being up to the job. Eir was unfortunately portrayed poorly in the games while having an amazing backstory in the novel edge of destiny that really builds her character in alot more ways.

But focusing on why Eir is bad, Eir is bad because the one chance she had to be interesting, was told off screen.

Braham and Eir bonded, we never SEE how they bonded, and that was a MASSIVE hit to the player as it removes any sense of relationship between them because, what was that relationship, how did they connect?

From that point its partially understandable why some feel Braham even caring about Eirs death is strange. We were supposed to have something in season 2, but in episode 3 of season 2 it was all just told “away” from the camera, meaning, what ever happened, we have no idea.

This is the same reason that Rytlocks “Mist journey” is honestly Bullkitten, in storytelling medium its not good story when your entire plot revolves around a mystery that you probably didnt even have the ability to answer.

I get that it was a cool idea, and that the plot wasnt fully there yet, but sometimes its better to have a clear idea what to write before writing it, than just putting it there because its cool then figuring it out later.

The most developed member’s of DE 1.0 were Logan and Caithe, despite people hating on Logan he had the most story in Season 1+2 as most of his character development revolves around launch content and the first two seasons of the game where he has involvement with Jennah at all times.

Logan definatley has plot, and Caithe? While her plot was a … well, lets just say Cluster-F of odd choices it was a plot even if the egg thing was a terrible drive. Season 3 sort of clears the air with Caithe but still leaves her unsolved and her story unfinished, really, it should have been easier to tell that from the start, instead of making it so unnecessarily complicated.

And Zojja? No, Zojja can honestly die for all I care, Zojja was a terrible character even before she was a character in the game. Her story is aweful, shes meant to be something interesting but she is awefully written and awefully portrayed in terms of personality, character and agenda. Her entire character is a “sassy asura” who basically gives people lip because she “knows better”. The thing is, she doesnt, at no point does Zojja believably seem smart or intelectual except to people who are blatantly more stupid than herself which really demeans her even more.

Zojja’s problem was also a lack of standing out, with Taimi in the story, Zojja is literally unneeded, her plot is so backwards now that killing her off might actually be the best way to move her on. That being said, I do think there is ONE way to redeem this character that I feel is PIVOTAL in bringing her back.

I would like Zojja to have a buddy-cop story with Taimi, against Kralkatorrik, with Zojja becomming Snaff 2.0 this would actually give her a role again, and yes, that even includes Zojja’s fate, dying as Snaff did, to save her academic apprentice.

Only this time Zojja will actually do something meaningful and injure the dragon, or fatally wound it before finally dying, having succeeding in avenging snaff before passing on to join him and leaving the future in Taimi’s hands.

That, would be the only way Zojja at this point, has any story left to tell in my mind.

As brutal as that is, Zojja is frankly expendable, even more so than Eir was.

Caithe still has something to do, her story with Aurene could go somewhere, Rytlock NEEDS TO GIVE US AN EXPLINATOIN AND THAT CRAP CANT BE HIDDEN FOREVER.

And Logan could still very much come back from his comatosed state, as he needs a story where he can finally grow away from Jennah.

Im hoping, she dies in episode 4, which will let Logan go back to being Ascalon Renegade Logan from the book, and make him into the edgy kitten he was before.

Regardless…

I feel strongly that DE 2.0 has a place, more so than DE 1.0 but DE 1.0 needs to play its part, or its going to become irelevent, and right now, they’re definatly falling into the background too much.

Closing

Also lets talk about Canach quickly.

Canach is awesome, end of story.

Okay, in seriousness, Canach really was awesome, firstly because hes a reformed criminal that went from being a get-rich-quick consortium idiot to a kitten trying to actually fix his own mistake by… unintentionally killing everyone, then getting arrested for it, then turning into the edgy kitten hes become working for Anise.

Can I just say, I love Canach, right now, Canach’s cynical, ruthless, brutal personality is what makes him one of the best Sylvari ever in the story. He is somewhere close to a courtier but never quite on the edge, hes ruthless enough to make even Caithe pause, but still able to know the limit, even if he is merciless to those with an evil agenda.

His cynical character makes him one of the most interesting Sylvari, with alot of humanity and depth to his layers giving him a relatable perspective of that redeemed villian persona that defines him.

Also, speaking of Villians.

Scarlet… now lets be honest, Scarlet was not great, Scarlets biggest downfall was exactly the same as Eir’s. Scarlet had an AMAZING short story written on this very website about her backstory that really helped flesh her out and give her layers but ALL her plot was told in stories and NEVER in game nearly enough making all of her actions feel like a “I did it” annoyance more than an “im actually smart” genious. She was just being outwardly obnoxious when she revealed in the tower she did everything since everyone just said “we know” by that point.

Now Lazarus is alot more interesting in this respect, so far, his mystery and lack of clear agenda have made him alot more engaging as a villian if he is a villian at this point, or even an anti-villian, as his personality makes him directly difficult to understand.

So far that enigma around Lazarus makes him someone I want to know more, unlike Scarlet who I knew too much by the end of it. I mean literally every episode you had a recap of everything scarlet did and it was annoying by the end. People can figure this out themselves, they dont need to be told.
They have the tools to read with their eyes, and listen with their ears, they dont need everything spoonfed repeatedly as if they’re morons.

In closure, A-net, I hope you fix DE 1.0 but I really hope you consider the future of DE 2.0 too, and I hope most importantly, you remember, every character is a person, and they have stories to develop, and grow with, we need to see that in game im afraid, you cant just get away with hiding it in a lore book forever.

Though I would love to see a novel detailing some of these things, like Belinda’s past before she died, as a Seraph, and maybe even her life before it.

Maybe she was an amazing kitten, or maybe she even saw her own death and was unable to prevent it in some tragedy.

Regardless, thats a story for another time, like Belinda, Mai Trin, Mister E and alot of other characters id like stories on or even the ability to play as and learn about from their POV.

Thank you, CaptainVanguard, for your in-depth analysis. I think you really nailed it.

I do not understand why anyone would hate Logan. I think he is the most likeable of them all (besides Rox). He isn’t annoying in any way, like all of the other characters are on occasion: they are either annoyingly naive (Kasmeer, Caithe, Taimi up to LWS3), annoyingly arrogant (Taimi most of all, but also many of the others), annoyingly “hip” (mostly Braham, whatever comes out of his mouth just makes me want to smack him in the back of the head, he sounds like a 13-year old), annoyingly sarcastic and/or patronizing (Rytlock, Taimi, Zojja). Logan is just loyal and human in his ways, and I like his agenda most of the time.

Logan is a bit of a wuss. That’s why I find him annoying. Braham is a positive menace, a loose cannon.

Ithilwen.1529:

Logan is a bit of a wuss. That’s why I find him annoying. Braham is a positive menace, a loose cannon.

Like I said, Braham is an immature annoyance with his “hipster language” and his childish agenda. Only kids can find that to be “cool”.

Why do you consider Logan a “wuss”, just because he has normal feelings and isn’t emotionally and mentally screwed up like the others?

Braham to be honest was a little offencive to me as a man as hes literally just portrayed as a stupid norn while the rest of the DE 2.0 team except for Canach were portrayed as strong intelectual women.

I get that there is a strong agenda in the writing of A-nets work but sometimes it comes across a little too aggressive and Braham doesnt need to be this stupid forever.

I quite hope that after he decides to solo Jormag and aptly fails, he will learn to appriciate teamwork a bit more once again, considering he was a very heavy team player before Eir Died.

Still hes immature for a reason, hes a teenager whos about to reach early adulthood, hes literally not grown up yet even if he looks tall.

So I can kind of forgive him being a “dumb” male but I do wish he’d start getting smarter, theres only so much that writing can come across as unoffencive and frankly insulting, not all Norn Males are idiots.

As for Logan, Logan I suppose could be considered a Wuss because hes literally hypnotised and enchanted by Jennah, but again, he is far from a dumb male, if anything Logan prooved that by luring the mantle into a trap in the human lost parents storyline and also by being slightly corrupt and above the law in the noble/commoner storylines where he manipulates things to his advantage.

Logan is what one would regard as a morally clever kitten, since he takes advantage of his own power and uses it to get what he wants but usually for the right reasons.

Despite this however, it will be interesting if Jennah dies, because Logan’s old personality was alot closer to a rebel/survivor than a corrupt guard and chances are, he’ll go back to Ascalon without her to protect.

Jennah is after all his “one” reason for being in Kryta.

[quote=6418087;ATMAvatar.5749:]

Well, norn males are pretty much a caricature. They’re deformed and ugly by most standards while female norn are doll-like and attractive with human proportions, and male norns are depicted as simpletons while the women seem to manage them like dumb cattle you use for physical prowess.

Male norns have hunched over postures, with a triangular neck to shoulderline shape, huge case of bow leg with gaps and tiny lower body proprotional to the chest. Male norn head isn’t even properly sized to the trunk of the body.

They’re a joke in every way.

Zenith.7301:

and male norns are depicted as simpletons.

Correction: Young male norn are depicted as simpletons. The elders seem to show more wisdom.

Thuggernaut.1250:

As soon as the sidekicks/henchmen start to get sassy and disrespect/insult the player, the writers need to kill them off.

Just one last thing, since I still consider your whole argumentation silly: It’s the writers who make characters “sassy” or “disrespectful”, so you are basically asking them to kill their own creations due to what you consider bad decisions on their end. Paradoxon.

Eponet.4829:

Zenith.7301:

and male norns are depicted as simpletons.

Correction: Young male norn are depicted as simpletons. The elders seem to show more wisdom.

Unfortunately, most of what we see are the simpletons.

Thats because we don’t see lots of norn characters. Norn are the most poorly represented race ingame. Humans, sylvary, asura have a lot of characters involved into the story, with adequate amount of screen time and development. Norn had only two significant persons: Eir and Braham. And Eir is dead. It is a funny thing to think of, most of the races have some kind of major inner antagonist (Caudecus, Faolin, Kudu) while norn have just some random nameless icebrood/sons of Svanir. Charr are poorly represented aswell, but at least both Rythlok and Rox are alive, so we have a typical (Rythlok) and non-typical (Rox) charr representatives.

I would love if they had altered the story by killing off Braham instead of Eir. Then she could have gone for revenge like only a parent could!!!!

BrotherBelial.3094:

Doam.8305:

Krinstin.6287:

Keep Braham and Majory alive.
Kill Caithe.

Unlike Braham and Majory

Caithe is a perfectly fine character if your a Sylvari in fact as a Sylvari I find I’m way to hard on Caithe. She was their for our personal stories and the only personal story character people universally hate is Logan.

I don’t get why people hate him. Seeing as he’s tied to the queen thanks to her magic and an oath he gave her, but I guess it’s easy to forget theses things and just band waggon on the hate train.

I think you have forgotten that he gave the oath out of blind stupid love on first sight. Some fairy tale bs. And then he lets Snaff and Glint die because his Queen oh so needed his help (No she didn’t, she is far stronger than Logan and we see this again in ep 4).

Caithe on the other hand was under Mordremoth influence and fight it. This caused her to have problems. I hate it when I play the new Living world with my Sylvari and there is the same treatment for Caithe as all the other Sylvaris get in Maguma from the other Races.
And here the thing with Caithe again. As a Sylvari player we give her a hard time but take everything this over sized cry baby gives us like a sponge.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Taimi… is a bit of a mary sue, even if she has this love/hate vibe for me, Taimi started off great as this chaotic character that just appeared into the chaos and mess of things and claimed to know everyone. I strongly suspected at first she was just some spy working for Scarlet but being her fangirl made her alot more hilarious and complex. But the only thing I didnt like was her initally bratty personality and how angsty she was about giving her invention away rather selfishly kitten ing all of Tyria for a brief moment because she wanted the credit.

I get that it was her invention, but that was annoying for me. It was however redeemed when she finally learned to depend on her friends instead of being a brat and after that she grew on me heavily. Since then, ive really come to like her as a character and shes all but replaced Zojja at this point who is frankly a spare part since Zojja’s role as scientist extrodinare is literally now Taimi’s role.

This is where Braham/Marjory really have excelled as they are the two most developing members of DE 2.0

In conclusion, I think its unfair to hate on them for actually being interesting, because at least they’re doing something, which is more than just standing there and looking pretty, like Zojja is right now.

Also I think many people think of this characters just as Humans. That they should react like Humans do and all. This is my problem with Braham. He acts like a Human would do. We have a great Norn in the Book Ghosts of Ascalon. Gullik Oddsson, we see him grieving over his Sister but not like a cry baby like Braham. He is only angry with Dougal Keane because he was told he wouldn’t tell her story. The Norn way of grieving.

And this can be ported over to Taimi as well. She comes from a very different Race and culture than humans could ever understand. We have this in the books and also in the story and all how they want credit for their intellect and other recognition in form of crews and high positions. And how they are ready to go over dead bodies to do this.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

I would love if they had altered the story by killing off Braham instead of Eir. Then she could have gone for revenge like only a parent could!!!!

That would of been awesome! Especially versus the mood swings of Braham. He seemed totally cool with me when we fought mordy, but a few weeks pass and he’s lost his kitten. If we was an interesting character, I may give a kitten, but no cats here.

BlackDragon.2084:

I think you have forgotten that he gave the oath out of blind stupid love on first sight. Some fairy tale bs. And then he lets Snaff and Glint die because his Queen oh so needed his help (No she didn’t, she is far stronger than Logan and we see this again in ep 4).

I’m pretty sure he had no idea she could do that when he went rushing off to her rescue. Also, I seem to recall that HE was the one that released the charr prisoners in Ebonhawke to help defend the city during that final fight. That’s the really impressive thing he did right there, he convinced a bunch of prisoner charr to take up arms and fight alongside their lifelong enemies against a greater threat, and it did it quickly.

Logan is very much a heroic character. When that fails, he seems lame. When it’s the right moment for a hero to step forth, he shines. I think the announced role change for him in LS3 is just what was needed.

Sorry, if the new excuse for Braham is that he’s young, then he shouldn’t be out adventuring with “the team” to save the world. I said the same about Taimi. If you can’t hack it, then go home. We’re not out goofing around. There’s no room for idiots when you’re trying to save the world.

This is my view on this:

Braham is filled with regret.
He basically hated his mother all his life because he didn’t understand why she didn’t raise him. Near her end, they finally got closer and he started understanding the reasons for her actions and started seeing her in a new light, seeing that he was wrong about her all this time.
Just when they started getting closer she died.
Now he is regretting that he treated her so poorly and that he never acknowledged all the things she has done, her legacy and he feels like he has to make up for a lifetime of wrong judgment twords her and make sure nobody else makes the mistake he did and doesn’t acknowledge the heroine she was. Which is why even in his darkest moments he made sure to arrange the memorial.

He is full of regret and and angry at hisself and goes off to fight svanir, icebrood and whatnot for weeks all alone – with nobody there to help break thew his negative spiral of thoughts which are dragging him deeper and deeper into bitterness and further and further away from rational judgement or logical thinking.

His only goal now is to make up for how he wronged his mother. By finishing what she started and killing the remaining elder dragons and by keeping her legacy alive and her story told. He doesn’t see anything other than that anymore. He gets angry at everyone he feels is trying to keep him from archieving his goal. Which is why he is so angry at us too.

Rox manages to break threw to him a little at least, he agrees to not fight Jormag right away but form a scouting party which makes it seem like having her there does help break threw that downward spiral of anger and regret a little at least which allows a minimum of logical thinking.
I doubt Rox will have more than a very limited effect though and there will probably be people (maybe even Rox) dying before he understands just how stupid and selfish he really is behaving.

Palador.2170:

BlackDragon.2084:

I think you have forgotten that he gave the oath out of blind stupid love on first sight. Some fairy tale bs. And then he lets Snaff and Glint die because his Queen oh so needed his help (No she didn’t, she is far stronger than Logan and we see this again in ep 4).

I’m pretty sure he had no idea she could do that when he went rushing off to her rescue. Also, I seem to recall that HE was the one that released the charr prisoners in Ebonhawke to help defend the city during that final fight. That’s the really impressive thing he did right there, he convinced a bunch of prisoner charr to take up arms and fight alongside their lifelong enemies against a greater threat, and it did it quickly.

Logan is very much a heroic character. When that fails, he seems lame. When it’s the right moment for a hero to step forth, he shines. I think the announced role change for him in LS3 is just what was needed.

He didn’t do it on his own. He used the Blood legion Amulet that Rytlock gave him as a sign of their friendship. He was seen as a brother of a Charr and so a Charr himself. Also something he wasn’t worthy to have after betraying the others. The Queen cried for help and like a dog he ran to her.

It was not because he was such a great character or something. It was because of the Charr culture that he could rally the prisoners behind him.

Braham needs to be let go. Not killed. He’s obviously not worth recruiting for the new guild just for the sake of him being Eir’s son. He’s unstable mentally, unreliable, doesn’t obey orders, he just needs to be left behind to the fate he chooses. I’d like to see him go and some other Norn to join the group. I don’t know, didn’t Braham have a sister, cousin, aunt, uncle, something?
As for them acting like teenagers, well, some of them ARE teenagers or very early 20s.
Taimi is the most rounded up of all of them. And Rox is ok. But yes, the love story between Marjorie and Kasmeer is too much in your face and just repeats Caithe/Faolain. Ok, we got it, Arena Net is all for lesbianism, now can we focus on the story? Otherwise, if you really want to beat that dead horse to oblivion, just find a NPC for the player character to have a romantic interest in and let us choose our favorite type of relationship, lol

I really don’t understand why people have a problem with Marjory. I have more of a problem with the way the PC responded to her. In response to her saying, “I’m going to keep an eye on this person we don’t trust,” I would have ACTUALLY said “Okay, thank you. Be careful, call me if there’s any trouble.” End of story. I wouldn’t try to forbid her from doing something, good grief. Just like threatening to kill Caithe in HoT – barf. Totally out of character imo.

RDarken.2495:

I really don’t understand why people have a problem with Marjory. I have more of a problem with the way the PC responded to her. In response to her saying, “I’m going to keep an eye on this person we don’t trust,” I would have ACTUALLY said “Okay, thank you. Be careful, call me if there’s any trouble.” End of story. I wouldn’t try to forbid her from doing something, good grief. Just like threatening to kill Caithe in HoT – barf. Totally out of character imo.

I agree an Marjory, but I disagree on Caithe- the way she was presented was that she was unpredictable and a potential threat. Under those circumstances I felt the commander justified in laying down a few threats if she steps out of line. If anything I thought the commander was way to lenient with her to not make her just explain herself first.

Actually I never distrusted Caithe. She told me “remember we are on the same side,” and I believed her. Was I happy with her? No. did I distrust her her? No.

If I had to go into battle irl.. Caithe would be one I’d want beside me. Braham? I’d want him as far away as possible.

I never understood why people felt Caithe was like the embodiment of evil, and distrusted her that much. Even if her actions were a breach of trust, she didn’t come across wholly malicious, and she still remained my favourite DE member. In the context of the story, I guess I could maybe understand why she was treated so harshly by the player character, what with the dragon being so important, but the hate for her makes zero sense to me, especially when I liked her character, whilst others were far more annoying. So, even if she were to be seen as malicious, I’d still like her as a character more than some of the others who follow the player around.

Ashantara.8731:

Coffietire.2783:

-Kasmeer = waifu
-Marjory = Kasmeer’s girl
-Kill Marjory = sad Kasmeer
-Sad waifu = sad lifeu

Whatu?

roflmao ^^ best analogy ive read in a long time

Howeve,r like Ive written in that other thread, personally I’d be happy to see some characters getting killed off.
Rox, Braham, Canach and Marjory are so worthless to the game.
GW2’s story telling needs some fresh air and the easiest way how the game can get some fresh new is is through replacing characters with new ones.

Rox = Zero Character Development from Day One until today.
Canach = At the peak of his Development, from now on nothing more than just a boring ordinary Sylvari like millions of others full of sarcasm, but sarcasm alone makes a charascter not good, nor entertaining and interesting for a long time.
Braham = This character has been basically destroyed by Anet, he could have been so much more, but anet totalyl crashed his development agaisnt the wall
Marjory = Has reached her best part with HoT, then has Anet crashed her agaisnt the wall, like Braham.

What GW2 needs, are strong willed, mature, self confident and trustworthy Characters with personalities that stand for the characters and make them likeable.

For example, I would replace anytime without regret now Marjory with Livia from GW1, which is a strong willed, experienced and mature character – but at the same tiem also powerful, mysterious and self confident as current wielder of the Scepter of Orr and I’m sure, Anet would be able to tell about her, the past from her and what she made through within the last 250 years most likely as a “Lich” from the scepter’s powers and her profession as a Necromancer.

If I would be as hero and main character in a life dangerous situation, where my life depends from someone else and that someone else would be either Marjory, or Livia, then I woudl definetely trust Livia more to save my characters life, then I’d do that with Marjory to be honest, because Marjory is just a way too inexperienced character that has to me no personality – shes to me someone, who would break in under pressure, unreliable – where Livia has to me personality, comes over as a much more strong willed person with more self convidence in her own abilities and powers.

New Characters always mean also a new chance, besides of the fresh air they brign to the game. It must even be to kill certain characters off.. it would be also enough to make them forcefully make some kind of longer break, like letting them get injured so that they need to take for a longer while a break, like breaking them some legs and arms, while introducing at the same time some kind of new super talented recruits that amazed you at some missions, that convince you by their personality to given them an invitation for Dragon’s Watch to become new recruits for your Guild instead of going for the Pact, because you believe, no, you know, that their talents would be under your lead better for Tyria, than they wastign their talents as some kind of simple guards in Lions arch or somewhere else

Thats the simple way how it would be easily possible to give your group of characters some fresh new meat, while the old characters just take a break either for a while, or permanently if a kill off would be dramatically better suited for the situation, because I thikn, we could see eventualyl finalyl some real character development as some kind of reaction for Rox, if she would have to watch braham gettign killed of right in frotn of her eyes by Jormag or one of his champs….

Rox has finally to get outta of herself, so much non existing character progression within her is just not normal.
That character literally needs a kick into her butt, or we will most likely never see some kind of progression within her character development anymore, if Rox gets not some kind of motivation soon or some kind of change in her life and its most unlikely, that anet will ever kill of Rytlock.
Therefore is he way to iconic now for the game – but Braham.. that would be melodramatic enough I think to shake Rox awake perhaps.

Moonyeti.3296:

I agree an Marjory, but I disagree on Caithe- the way she was presented was that she was unpredictable and a potential threat. Under those circumstances I felt the commander justified in laying down a few threats if she steps out of line. If anything I thought the commander was way to lenient with her to not make her just explain herself first.

I think as a Sylvari we see often enough, in the story of HoT, how hard the influence of the Dragon is. So I don’t think we have any justification to attack Caithe who acted in this situation as if everyone could be the enemy. And she was not really wrong. As even the pact commander Sylvari nearly was controlled by the dragon.So yeah.

Orpheal.8263:

roflmao ^^ best analogy ive read in a long time

Howeve,r like Ive written in that other thread, personally I’d be happy to see some characters getting killed off.
Rox, Braham, Canach and Marjory are so worthless to the game.
GW2’s story telling needs some fresh air and the easiest way how the game can get some fresh new is is through replacing characters with new ones.

Rox = Zero Character Development from Day One until today.
Canach = At the peak of his Development, from now on nothing more than just a boring ordinary Sylvari like millions of others full of sarcasm, but sarcasm alone makes a charascter not good, nor entertaining and interesting for a long time.
Braham = This character has been basically destroyed by Anet, he could have been so much more, but anet totalyl crashed his development agaisnt the wall
Marjory = Has reached her best part with HoT, then has Anet crashed her agaisnt the wall, like Braham.

I agree with Braham.
With Rox I am not sure, yeah she is more of a background character. But at least not the worst.
Marjory and Canach I think you are wrong. Majory maybe made a bad decision, but she shows us a strong personalty with her wish to learn more about the Mursaat and the Mist. Topics that are interesting for a Necromancer. And well so far I have only seen Canach as the loyal dog of a Human. maybe we get some more character development when we see him again after he is free now and want to go his own way. He didn’t really had a way to develop as he was forced to be part of the shiningblade.