Guild Wars 2

I see we have a new narrative director- great! Welcome to the team Leah

There is one issue i would love for you to address, when you have a slot for it. Time and time again we are subjected to pretty obvious misandry in LS episodes, the latest being the pathetic ‘master’ of wind. Can you please kill the misandrist writing in future LS episodes and ensure we have a more balanced view of genders and their interactions?

I’m getting the whole current feminist movement thing but really, i’m overexposed to that enough as it is without having to deal with it in my hobby as well.

As an egalitarian it’s really offensive to see male characters being consistently put-down and cuckolded in LS as well as generally in the game dialogues- i’m asking for realistic, strong male characters to balance out the profusion of realistic, strong female characters.

Thank you

I don’t think misandry means what you think it means.

You also seem to completely ignore the fact that during the Personal story most strong characters were male. There are also plenty of strong male characters in the game overall.

Here you go, krall:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry

lordkrall.7241:

I don’t think misandry means what you think it means.

You also seem to completely ignore the fact that during the Personal story most strong characters were male. There are also plenty of strong male characters in the game overall.

Most? I’d say it was fairly even, maybe a little more males. I don’t think there are any characters that aren’t strong by the way, because everyone we meet are soldiers.

The biconics aren’t even trying to be fair though. Not only do females out-number males 4 to 1, the one male in the group is a big dumb baby who’s only special because he’s Eir’s son.

Novu, i over-analyse everything anyway, it’s the type of person i am. Fyi, all i’m asking for (as an egalitarian) is balance in how both genders are portrayed.

I am of course not talking about physically strong. But rather strong as in powerful, either politically, magically or physically. Or simple important.

While the biconics have more females than males there are other characters in the Living Story.
Canach comes to mind. Not to mention all the other male characters that we have seen and interacted with during the LS, such as Magnus, Evon, Master of Peace and Aerin.

Funky.4861:

Novu, i over-analyse everything anyway, it’s the type of person i am. Fyi, all i’m asking for (as an egalitarian) is balance in how both genders are portrayed.

The fact that you over-anylize things is only your problem, not ANETs
Don’t assume that what you perceive is the truth.
Don’t assume that just because you noticed less strong male characters that it was intentionally done by ANET instead of an oversight or just simply your own delusion.

Balance does not exist because its a perspective thing.

Lets say for example…

There are MORE woman in the world than men, meaning should there not be more woman represented in media than men?

How many black characters (npc) do you see in GW2? How many Asian?

How far do you REALLY want to take this supposed “balance”?

Maybe there are fewer manly men characters because they have all already died off in the GW2 universe thanks to the constant fighting? So the woman have stepped in?

Do you see what I am getting at here?

EDIT : Just made the post easier to read.

I just would like to say, do not take my post personally, ALL my friends tend to do the exact same thing. Bad choice in friends, or good? Dono.
And thinking just a little further than the information you currently have, could broaden your mind a lot.
I need to prove their skepticism to be misplaced often, whether its in GW2 or any other game or anything really.

If this can be used as an excuse to kill of braham and replace him with someone that isnt a whiny teenager whose done twice as many steroids as barry bonds did in his entire life, then I second this.

Nothing makes this game harder to take seriously than him.

Firstly; over-analysing a thing is not a problem.

Secondly; if the facts that i perceive are not truth, then what are they?

Thirdly; i’m reasonably sure that the ‘more strong female characters’ was intentionally done by anet, as gw2 has been that way since the start. It seems i need to re-iterate: i do not mind that there are strong likeable female characters, i do mind that there is a lack of strong likeable male characters to balance them.

The rest of your points, while valid, largely fall under the marketing category. This game was marketed primarily at a north american audience, so anet had to choose which demographics to promote in the game to appeal to that audience.

Oh, are we playing this game? I can do it too!

“I thought the latest living story chapter was extremely misogynistic. Who was the thieving, lying, betraying villain? Caithe: yet another woman.”

Funny how you can support pretty much any argument when you cherrypick facts and have absolutely no sense of perspective.

Lmao olven, +1 for the attempted troll I’m not cherrypicking anything, just giving yet another example of misandrist writing in the game. Just because Caithe did steal, lie and betray the pact has nothing to do with her gender. Besides, Caithe IS a thief…

But why does gender even matter in the first place?

Would the game somehow be better if they switch the gender of Kasmeer and Majory to male? The stories would still be exactly the same. The writing would be the same and so on. The gender wouldn’t really change anything at all.

There are a rather large amount of strong male characters in the game as well, you simply seem to ignore them.

Equal numbers does not equal equality. It’s not inequality if there are more powerful characters of one gender than the other just as long as neither is universally shown as worse – just as it isn’t equality to demand a powerful character of either gender for the sole purpose of equality. Equality is when such a thing stops being an issue.

lordkrall.7241:

While the biconics have more females than males there are other characters in the Living Story.

Yes and most of those other characters are female.

Arena Net does have a bias towards female, it is not bad but I would like to see another likable prominent male role, Braham does not cut it and Canach is not important enough nor is he often present.

Aedelric.1287:

lordkrall.7241:

While the biconics have more females than males there are other characters in the Living Story.

Yes and most of those other characters are female.

Arena Net does have a bias towards female, it is not bad but I would like to see another likable prominent male role, Braham does not cut it and Canach is not important enough nor is he often present.

Dare i say it…

..Trahearne

-ducks for cover-

@Zonky

The problem is not over-analyzing, its that you do it without ALL the information, or without considering all the information.

Simply put your view of the world could be completely wrong. So can mind.

Now if you provided a detailed list of ALL the strong females vs all the strong males, THEN I would engage in debate.

But i still do not agree with your view SO FAR… Prove me wrong…

Aedelric.1287:

Yes and most of those other characters are female.

Arena Net does have a bias towards female, it is not bad but I would like to see another likable prominent male role, Braham does not cut it and Canach is not important enough nor is he often present.

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

This is the silliest thing I’ve read all week.

90% of games have powerful male characters outnumbering powerful female ones. Then, a game has an arguable, possible, ever-so-slight number more prominent females than males in one aspect of its story, and is immediately accused of misandry.

This is silliness. Silliness incarnate.

I’m not understanding why it matters if there are predominantly strong male or strong female characters. As long as the characters are strong, I fail to understand why anything else is relevant.

There is no bias towards female characters. It might appear that way, but only because you’re not used to seeing an equal balance of female characters in video games. So suddenly when we do have a more equal portrayal it appears imbalanced to some people.

There have been extensive psychological studies that have shown that mens ideas of balance between sexes are actually incredibly imbalanced. If a man and woman are both given equal speaking time, most men will still perceive the woman as having talked for longer. The fact that you think the portrayal is imbalanced actually speaks to how poorly women are represented in video games. I don’t even understand why this thread exists and you clearly have no conception of what misandry is, all the while you’re being a misogynist.

Flaming already pointed this out.
I’ma use a post from the previous topic on this to ilustrate why people talking from a position of privilege perceive balance as imabalance, partly because they’re used to being the target of the industry.
The 4 female & 1 male used are the biconics.

The personal bias angle that havoc mentioned gave me an idea. Earlier in this thread Raziel gave a link to a study that found an average male bias of 86% for game characters. I had pointed out how the 4F-to-1M distribution of DE Mk II is consistent with the null hypothesis of an unbiased distribution. Despite that, there seem to be players who feel very strongly that a bias is present. What gives?

Let’s repeat the null hypothesis (no bias) calculation. The distribution is B(5, 0.5) and the observed sample of { 4F, 1M } gets the probability P(| X – EX(X) | > 1) = 0.375. In other words, assuming a fair distribution of males and females, the observation of “at most 1 out of 5 of minority” has a reasonable probability that falls within the 1-sigma confidence limit. Thus, for a person without any preconceived notions about gender distribution, the observed distribution appears fair.

However, if we have another person who has already internalized the existing bias, then the observation appears completely different. The hypothesis distribution is now B(5, 0.86) and the evaluated probability P(X < 2) = 0.000615. This value is well beyond the 3-sigma limit of statistical significance. Thus, a person who sees the existing genre-wide bias as unbiased will perceive a 4F-to-1M situation as strongly biased.

Thus, we can have two groups of people, one perceiving no bias and the other perceiving a strong bias — both confident of the validity of their subjective perception. The difference in perception is explained by the latter group having a large inherent bias that they see as “normal”.

This demonstrates quite nicely the “talking from a position of privilege” part that has been mentioned earlier.

The study:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-009-9637-1 with a sample size of 489, out of which 86% is male.

And yet another post, from the same thread, that throws some light into this issue:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

As I’m sure others have pointed out already, but the more voices the more it is heard:

In nearly any other game you have a major cast of many many male characters. There are often token (and sometimes well-built) female characters, but there are very few. Now we get into the part where numbers and representation matters.

Men can see other men in the media wherever they look: the extremely vast majority of films and games and even many books have male protagonists. The issue of representation might be applicable to GW2 if it was the opposite case, but it’s not. There are enough men in the media. I, for one, find it refreshing to see a large number of good women characters in GW2 (or just women characters) because other games do not have this. GW2 does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in relation to other games. And newsflash, folks: women enjoy many games with a large majority of male protagonists! Many also have a problem with it, so they write threads like this one except their thread could be applied to almost any other game.

But…but…there’s TOO MANY women in GW2! The scales are skewed! There should be complete equality!
Uh…I don’t think you understand what’s going on in popular culture and in the media and generally in our western society, do you? Ideally, there should be overall an equal representation of race and gender and sexual orientation in popular media. There’s not. So, to help it along, you make shows and games like the others except you make the majority of them women or POC or LGBTQA-etc., or something else. Because you know what? There’s nothing inherently wrong with an all-male cast. So there’s nothing inherently wrong with a majority all-female cast. It gives women the variety in representation they need, because otherwise we’d have the ‘femme-fatale’ or the ‘shy, smart, and clutzy’ tropes being the only representations of women. To tip the scales back into balance, we need games like GW2 where the scales are tipped the other direction for a change. If you want a strong male lead, look at literally any other game or piece of media. Give women a place to be represented in a variety of ways for a change.

As to the characterization of all of the characters in the Living Story, that’s a different story.

Post is too long, will continue in next one

This horse has been beaten a million times already in this same forum, so I’ma call out the classic counter before it even happens:

a) “I’m talking of GW2’s missandry, not the industry’s”
GW2 does not exist in a vacuum, the people who play and analyze games & the representation of different groups dont either, expecting one piece of a larger gaming problem to be somehow removed from the context that favors it is a very cheap shot.

Other research:
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/handle/2142/47355
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-007-9307-0

More on social priviledge http://teddykw2.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/encyclopedia-of-communication-theory.pdf
Page 798.
A privileged group and be underrepresented to favor those who’re usually left out, that’s how it’s usually done. After all, you’ve 86% of the industry (and 96% of last year’s top games http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/06/women-in-film-video-games_n_4548558.html ) favoring you.

narwhalsbend.7059:

A – He’s in his teen years for a norn, meaning . . . yes, he is a whiny immature sod by the virtue of every other teenager being that way.

B – He’s not special for being Eir’s son, he’s special because he was the only norn who decided to act back in Frost and Flame. Also because he thinks that rooster mohawk-wannabe is cool.

C – I suspect there’s more to working with him than “big, dumb, hits things”. But it’s really hard to figure it out since the focus isn’t on him as much as it is Taimi, Kas/Jory, Mordremoth, et cetera.

I wouldn’t say the LW has misandry.

But looking at the overall, it does seem to be coming close. There is a pretty obvious favor of women in the game, which itself is not that bad, and in fact given the industry, I’d say it’s good. But when two racial enemies are women haters and there’s no men-hating groups (major or not), or you have a nearly all female Living World cast (I can count the number of major male characters in the LW on one hand – Braham, Evon, Canach; no I don’t count Logan, Rytlock, or Magnus as they rarely get a focus, and when they show up, they’re cameo appearances usually). It starts getting perceived as misandry.

And the same would happen the opposite way.

But it isn’t there yet. You’re just starting to cut it close, imo.

And to quote someone in this thread: equal numbers doesn’t make equality" – aside from low men in the LW’s major character roster, most of them are unimportant or without specialities while the women in the LW’s major character roster are the opposite: important or with specialities.

I’m guessing that this is stemming out of a desire out of (some of) the writers to bring focus on the “women of gaming” in a positive light. However, if you start neglecting the other side… it becomes a problem – as this thread shows. There is no need to lose one side of the coin to have the other. The personal story was perfect with this – it had prominent men and women, in near equal numbers. The Living World is a stark contrast to the Personal Story in many, many ways. This is but one small one.

I was actually thinking the past LS episodes were misogynistic. It seems like the writers artificially dumbed down the male leads so that the females appeared strong. It is as if they thought that female characters cannot be strong next to strong male characters. Hopefully, Leah is a better writer.

lordkrall.7241:

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

Yes.

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Keep in mind I am not counting the many other smaller voiced roles like soldier and such, which are often female. But at the end of the day none of this is really important, the real issue is the major characters and how the males are often portrayed as idiots or incompetent.

Arena Net could really do with making a new major male character that is useful and not a complete moron, the lack of relatable or likable male leads is disappointing.

Aedelric.1287:

lordkrall.7241:

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

Yes.

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Keep in mind I am not counting the many other smaller voiced roles like soldier and such, which are often female. But at the end of the day none of this is really important, the real issue is the major characters and how the males are often portrayed as idiots or incompetent.

Arena Net could really do with making a new major male character that is useful and not a complete moron, the lack of relatable or likable male leads is disappointing.

Ooh, you stacked the count by adding in characters who existed before the Living World launched, when the person you replied to avoided doing so. Foul! Yellow card.

Edit:

I just checked. Magister Ela Makkay was in Season One, twice. Once, though, as a purely infodump character. Belinda began in the epilogue instance of Season One. Ellen Kiel didn’t take part in events at all in Season Two, so she is a pure Season One character you pulled in.

Countess Anise, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Caithe, and Zojja were all in the Personal Story at various points for various races.

So really your list for season two comes down to . . . nobody.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aedelric.1287:

lordkrall.7241:

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

Yes.

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Keep in mind I am not counting the many other smaller voiced roles like soldier and such, which are often female. But at the end of the day none of this is really important, the real issue is the major characters and how the males are often portrayed as idiots or incompetent.

Arena Net could really do with making a new major male character that is useful and not a complete moron, the lack of relatable or likable male leads is disappointing.

Ooh, you stacked the count by adding in characters who existed before the Living World launched, when the person you replied to avoided doing so. Foul! Yellow card.

Uhhh…

Magnus was first shown to us in Edge of Destiny – though first in-game in The Lost Shores.
Evon has been in the game sense launch.
And he mentioned Rytlock and Logan – obviously, since launch (and before – both EoD and GoA).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I just checked. Magister Ela Makkay was in Season One, twice. Once, though, as a purely infodump character. Belinda began in the epilogue instance of Season One. Ellen Kiel didn’t take part in events at all in Season Two, so she is a pure Season One character you pulled in.

Uh… Ela was around for Flame and Frost, Bazaar of the Four Winds, Tower of Nightmares arc, Origins of Madness, and Battle for/Escape from LA. That’s more than twice.

Ellen Kiel was part of the Season 2 prologue (Festival of the Four Winds).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So really your list for season two comes down to . . . nobody.

Aedelric wasn’t talking about Season 2 only, but Living World. Both Seasons.

Not that I really care about your argument points (either side), but come on, at least read what you’re responding to.

Huh… okay, well, I can’t say whether or not there’s misandry to any real degree in the writing or not because I don’t care. I will say this though:

1. The following characters are annoying and I’d appreciate it if they were killed off: Braham, Evon, Caithe, Kas, Jory, Logan, Anise, and Keeper Fleethunter (although I would be satisfied if Keeper Fleethunter was kept a bit further away from Tactician Deathstrider so that I wont always accidentally trigger Fleethunters dialog button while rushing to trade my karma for shards)

2. I would appreciate one male character, preferably human, who was really likeable. Ideally a bald guy in heavy CM armor who’s tough as nails. Misandry shmisandry, I’d just like to see a prominent male character who seems like the sort of guy who’d be in my offline group of pals.

Also, Rox rocks. LS needs more Rox.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not that I really care about your argument points (either side), but come on, at least read what you’re responding to.

Hmm.

Aedelric.1287:

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Yup. I read it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aedelric.1287:

lordkrall.7241:

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

Yes.

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Keep in mind I am not counting the many other smaller voiced roles like soldier and such, which are often female. But at the end of the day none of this is really important, the real issue is the major characters and how the males are often portrayed as idiots or incompetent.

Arena Net could really do with making a new major male character that is useful and not a complete moron, the lack of relatable or likable male leads is disappointing.

Ooh, you stacked the count by adding in characters who existed before the Living World launched, when the person you replied to avoided doing so. Foul! Yellow card.

Edit:

I just checked. Magister Ela Makkay was in Season One, twice. Once, though, as a purely infodump character. Belinda began in the epilogue instance of Season One. Ellen Kiel didn’t take part in events at all in Season Two, so she is a pure Season One character you pulled in.

Countess Anise, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Caithe, and Zojja were all in the Personal Story at various points for various races.

So really your list for season two comes down to . . . nobody.

Ela MakKay had a prominent role in the last couple of episodes, you sure you been playing season 2? And yes, some characters existed before the living story season 2, but same with characters in his list.

How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? Seriously is a double standard going on here, some peoples passion seem to be getting the better of them.

End of the day I have a right to want a new male lead, just like anyone else has a right to want whatever it is they like. Why nitpick and complain about other peoples likes/dislikes, go do something constructive instead.

Aedelric.1287:

Ela MakKay had a prominent role in the last couple of episodes, you sure you been playing season 2? And yes, some characters existed before the living story season 2, but same with characters in his list.

How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? Seriously is a double standard going on here, some peoples passion seem to be getting the better of them.

End of the day I have a right to want a new male lead, just like anyone else has a right to want whatever it is they like. Why nitpick and complain about other peoples likes/dislikes, go do something constructive instead.

Just like white people had a right to demand more white representation on the prince of bel-air and guys had the right to demand more representation on sailor moon.
But we dont really pay much attention to them now do we? because the rest of the industry favors those groups.

As pointed above (math done by tmaniken, not me), your percepcion of imbalance -therefore, your demand – is influenced by the industry’s inherent bias.

So yeah, you have the right to ask for it. Anet has the right to ignore you and point you to almost every other game out there. Enjoy

Edit: btw "How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? " you’re the one who claimed the list was only from season 2, you lied, he simply called you out on it.

You can’t argue objectively with subjective points of view.

Raziel.4216:

So yeah, you have the right to ask for it.

Yes, everyone has a right to want things, but what gives the people in this topic the right to say those opinions should be ignored? Problem here is opinionated people who feel offended by the fact that not everyone sees the world in the same way as them, which is bizarre as nothing offensive is being said.

I want female roles, I also want -better- male roles. Currently compared to the female roles, the males in the living story are either useless, comical or moronic, any unbiased person can see that disparity.

Kurogami.9210:

You can’t objectively argue with subjective points of view.

Lets not get into that though because even ‘objectivity’ is a tenuous term. An objectivity has to be based on something, it does not stand completely on its own; it’s at least partially subjective. So yeah, really lets not go there.

Aedelric.1287:

Yes, everyone has a right to want things, but what gives the people in this topic the right to say those opinions should be ignored?

The fact that your demand is influenced by a harmful industry standard gives Anet the right so say a big “NOOOOO” and that’s what they’ve been doing so far.
Once again, you have the right to ask for it, Anet has the right to ignore you and point you to almost-every other game out there.

Aedelric.1287:

Problem here is opinionated people who feel offended by the fact that not everyone sees the world in the same way as them, which is bizarre as nothing offensive is being said.

Not really, problem is you dont know what influences your opinion and makes it worth it or not in other people’s and Anet’s eyes. So far, it’s not worth it on Anet’s eyes.

Aedelric.1287:

I want female roles, I also want -better- male roles. Currently compared to the female roles, the males in the living story are either useless, comical or moronic, any unbiased person can see that disparity.

The industry standard for almost every other game is the complete opposite, as pointed above (and in the previous 2 topics that you took part in) the privileged group can take the sidewalk to give the spotlight to the underrepresented, that’s what Anet is doing.

Aedelric.1287:

How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? Seriously is a double standard going on here, some peoples passion seem to be getting the better of them.

Oh, that’s not the standard, the standard is set by you making your own words of “and this is from season 2” when they were all started from season one or earlier. Or had no roles in season 2 (like Kiel).

End of the day I have a right to want a new male lead, just like anyone else has a right to want whatever it is they like. Why nitpick and complain about other peoples likes/dislikes, go do something constructive instead.

I see it as constructive to get people to do better with their arguments rather than formulate something with holes big enough to herd dolyaks through

I love that Guild Wars 2 is heavily female focused. I love that it has two, YES TWO!!, queer couples – one current and one past. I like the fact that it’s the women that are the main, relevant drivers of the plot.

Pretty much every game these days, and in the past, was mostly male characters, and if it had female characters, they were for the sexual gratification of the male characters in-game, or the gamers playing them – because the male demographic was/is what’s catered to.

No, Arena Net – DON’T CHANGE A THING! If anything, add more female characters.

One game out of, well, every game ever made, has a preponderance of female characters and emphasis on them, and cries of MISANDRY rain from the heavens. Don’t make me laugh.

Where were all you people when game after game after game with generic white male rubbish being pumped out, with no or appallingly portrayed female characters? Yeah, nowhere.

How can you call for equality when it’s already so unequally slanted towards males in gaming? And don’t tell me it isn’t. If anything Guild Wars 2, with it’s heavy female focus, is making things equal – equal against all the other games out there. Keep up the good job ANet!

Honestly, GW2 doesn’t have a heavy female focus – it just has about equal. It’s really refreshing, and I enjoy it (the romance writing, on the other hand – Marjory and Kasmeer are 30 going on 13, they act like schoolkids with crushes. They and Eir/Braham continue the trend of companions dumping their personal stuff in the middle of trying to accomplish really important things and it’s really irritating).

That some men can interpret ‘men are not 90% of all characters’ as misandry is a really sad reflection on gaming and society.

MashMash.1645:

I love that Guild Wars 2 is heavily female focused. I love that it has two, YES TWO!!, queer couples – one current and one past. I like the fact that it’s the women that are the main, relevant drivers of the plot.

Pretty much every game these days, and in the past, was mostly male characters, and if it had female characters, they were for the sexual gratification of the male characters in-game, or the gamers playing them – because the male demographic was/is what’s catered to.

No, Arena Net – DON’T CHANGE A THING! If anything, add more female characters.

One game out of, well, every game ever made, has a preponderance of female characters and emphasis on them, and cries of MISANDRY rain from the heavens. Don’t make me laugh.

Where were all you people when game after game after game with generic white male rubbish being pumped out, with no or appallingly portrayed female characters? Yeah, nowhere.

How can you call for equality when it’s already so unequally slanted towards males in gaming? And don’t tell me it isn’t. If anything Guild Wars 2, with it’s heavy female focus, is making things equal – equal against all the other games out there. Keep up the good job ANet!

While I completely disagree with your feminism-blinded assessment on the role of women in video games, your casual racism, and your desire to make men irrelevant in Tyria, I’d like to point out that there are at least four homosexual couples that I can think of off the top of my head (if you can count Sylvari that is).

@Canakun, there have been and continue to be organisations in the real world that are just as anti-women as the groups we encounter in GW2. And that’s the point: it’s not ok and Arenanet is pointing out how ridiculous it is.

In regards to male homosexual couples. Yeah we need more in game, though there is a couple that you can encounter at the very beginning of the Sylvari storyline. As it stands we have 2 lesbian couples and 1 gay couple. We need more of both, not less of one and more of the other.

And how on earth is there no such thing as male privilege. Western society is patriarchal. Men are paid more than women. Men are not faulted for their sexuality. I could continue that list for a very long time. Gender inequality is indisputable.

As an LGTBQ male you’re the member of a marginalized group in society (as am I). You would think that as someone who is actively marginalized you would be able to recognize when other groups are marginalized – for example women – rather than partaking in that marginalization yourself.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not that I really care about your argument points (either side), but come on, at least read what you’re responding to.

Hmm.

Aedelric.1287:

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Yup. I read it.

You claimed the person Aedelric responded to didn’t include PS-involved characters – they did.

Raziel.4216:

Edit: btw "How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? " you’re the one who claimed the list was only from season 2, you lied, he simply called you out on it.

To both you and Tobias:

Aedelric didn’t say the NPCs were only in Season 2 but rather that he took NPCs from Season 2 only – e.g., regardless of where else they were or were not involved, he only looked at NPCs involved with Season 2.

Reading comprehension, folks. It isn’t hard.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Oh, that’s not the standard, the standard is set by you making your own words of “and this is from season 2” when they were all started from season one or earlier. Or had no roles in season 2 (like Kiel).

Season 2 began with Festival of the Four Winds as its prologue/prelude. Kiel was involved there. Ergo, Kiel was involved with Season 2. I even said this in my previous post – proof that you apparently didn’t read even my full post.

All NPCs were involved in Season 2, and that’s what he said. He never said “they’re involved only in Season 2” – he said he pulled from Season 2 NPCs.

Gilosean.3805:

Honestly, GW2 doesn’t have a heavy female focus – it just has about equal.

Just to clarify: the argument isn’t “GW2 has a heavy female focus” – the argument is “Living World has a heavy female focus.” And it’s not about the number of characters, but the focus and attributes of the characters in relation to their gender.

Personally, I’m on the fence, and such writing – if such is intentional – only began after the Living World began.

narwhalsbend.7059:

MashMash.1645:

I love that Guild Wars 2 is heavily female focused. I love that it has two, YES TWO!!, queer couples – one current and one past. I like the fact that it’s the women that are the main, relevant drivers of the plot.

Pretty much every game these days, and in the past, was mostly male characters, and if it had female characters, they were for the sexual gratification of the male characters in-game, or the gamers playing them – because the male demographic was/is what’s catered to.

No, Arena Net – DON’T CHANGE A THING! If anything, add more female characters.

One game out of, well, every game ever made, has a preponderance of female characters and emphasis on them, and cries of MISANDRY rain from the heavens. Don’t make me laugh.

Where were all you people when game after game after game with generic white male rubbish being pumped out, with no or appallingly portrayed female characters? Yeah, nowhere.

How can you call for equality when it’s already so unequally slanted towards males in gaming? And don’t tell me it isn’t. If anything Guild Wars 2, with it’s heavy female focus, is making things equal – equal against all the other games out there. Keep up the good job ANet!

While I completely disagree with your feminism-blinded assessment on the role of women in video games, your casual racism, and your desire to make men irrelevant in Tyria, I’d like to point out that there are at least four homosexual couples that I can think of off the top of my head (if you can count Sylvari that is).

You point out that you disagree, call the view feminist-blinded yet fail to point out why and dont counter pretty much anything. Please, do try again, there’s nothing to argue with such post
Feminism in videogames aims for equal representation in the industry, not every single game (pretty goal, but not practical and imposible). It has been pointed out before with links to research articles but I’ll say it again; 24 out of last year’s 25 top games and around 86% of videogame protagonists are male, games like GW2 that go the opposite way help balance this situation.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aedelric didn’t say the NPCs were only in Season 2 but rather that he took NPCs from Season 2 only – e.g., regardless of where else they were or were not involved, he only looked at NPCs involved with Season 2.

Reading comprehension, folks. It isn’t hard.

Season 2 started on the gates of maguuma, not the bazaar.
From https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/
The 4 winds was a special event, not listed under season 2.
From Anet’s own website: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/get-ready/
Season 2 started on July 1st with the maguuma update.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Season 2 began with Festival of the Four Winds as its prologue/prelude. Kiel was involved there.* Ergo, Kiel was involved with Season 2. I even said this in my previous post – proof that you apparently didn’t read even my full post.

Read above ^

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All NPCs were involved in Season 2, and that’s what he said. He never said “they’re involved only in Season 2” – he said he pulled from Season 2 NPCs.

Really?

Aedelric.1287:

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

He said only, not either.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/only
I’m not sure how “only from season 2” can somehow include “characters who show up in season 1 and the special event in-between seasons”, specially after his message calls out the other guy for including season 1 characters in the discussion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Reading comprehension, folks. It isn’t hard.

Raziel.4216:

Wait what? Your post seems to insinuate that there’s no gender earning-gap (please no, so many debates with men’s right movements have beaten this horse pretty bad for me) patriarchy in western society and women marginalization. These aspects of our society influence games, specially the male-dominated culture.

Well, I’m not an MRA, but I’ll assume that what I’m about to say is similar to their rhetoric. Maybe if you just opened your mind and considered the possibiltiy that your worldview is incorrect, it wouldn’t feel like a dead horse being beaten?

Oh, no, there IS an earnings gap. But how is an earnings gap an injustice? What you need to understand is that the earnings gap isn’t telling us that between a woman and a man working the same job, a man is earning slightly more than that woman simply because he’s a man. What the earning gap is telling us, if you employ your reading comprehension skills I sincerely hope you picked up in primary school, is that over the average hours worked by all men and all women, women (again, on average) earn slightly less than men (on average). Women get paid the same as men individually, it’s just there are less women working, and more men working in higher paying fields (fields such as mining, construction, etc.) Depending on your country, go to your bureau of statistics web page and look for the difference in earnings between men and women. What it will say, black and white, is that this is an average built up over all hours worked across all fields by all men and all women. There is no PAY gap. There is an EARNINGS gap. So long as we’re a species that procreates sexually, with the female of our species carrying the child in her womb, there will ALWAYS be that earning gap.

If you look deeper, at more specific areas, there are actually other earning gaps…for example, in men and women aged between 19-29, women are actually earning more on average than men. There is an earnings gap that is age group specific, and it is in favor of women. It is not a wage gap, it is an earnings gap.

Wage gap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_Australia
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-biggest-myth-about-the-gender-wage-gap/276367/
http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/BAC94EBF241B1C9CCA25703B0080CCC8?opendocument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_Australia

Note key word “average”

Raziel.4216:

Why then? source?

Why what? Why are they marginalized? They aren’t. It’s offensive to every ACTUALLY marginalized group to suggest that women are, for being women, marginalized. When you look at rights, benefits, etc. that the government gives to men and women, and compare them, women end up being better off. This is limited to the western world, ofcourse. Women technically have more government rights given to them than men. Is that typical of marginalized groups? My findings would suggest that, uh, no, it isn’t.

Raziel.4216:

You just denied 3 long-standing facts, are you sure you’re studying these issues?

Just stating they are “long standing facts” doesn’t actually MAKE them long standing facts. I hope you know that.

Raziel.4216:

Please go ahead, dispute those long-established facts.

I did.

Raziel.4216:

Why not? Anet is free to compensate for anything they want, under-representing the privileged group is not an injustice, refer to the social enciclopedia linked above for more info.

Sure they are. But it wouldn’t be a smart thing to do.

Raziel.4216:

Privilege influences videogames too, this last part makes it clear that you’re not as enlightened on these issues as you claim, meh, quite the opposite.
For example, I (white, male & heterosexual) can take a peek thru steam right now and there’s a pretty big chance that I’ll find videogames with male, white and heterosexual protagonists. In fact, if I looked at last year’s top games, 96% had me in mind, while 4% had women.
That’s just a short example

It’s not a “privilege” that my sex is over represented in video games. Guess what…want more women in video games? Start funding groups like the Fine Young Capitalists. Stop tearing down the female-written heroines like Bayonetta. Make your own games. Because guess what pumpkin, this is capitalism. The audience drives the market. So long as you have straight white boys who can’t be bothered filling their societal roles of “checking their privilege,” and who would prefer to just play video games and stick their middle finger at the rest of the world, you will have a market seeped in this types of characters.
Feel free to see everything as an injustice, but just understand that it isn’t one.

^ I edited my previous post, providing links to the facts you denied btw

Raziel.4216:

^ I edited my previous post, providing links to the facts you denied btw

So did I

Actually two (I think) of the sources you provided said the same thing as what I’m saying.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short this article deals with average earnings of all male newly trained physicians vs. newly trained female physicians. There are more newly trained male physicians, therefore more average earnings.

If you’re in the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States
“earnings”, not “individual wage”.

I’m not denying there’s an earnings gap, I’m explaining to you how it doesn’t mean anything other than there are more men working than women, espeically in higher paying fields.
There’s a lot of reasons for this. Child birth. Career choice. etc. etc.
You choose to see outrage for the sake of it.

Before this gets too off-topic, and just to bump the OP’s convo a bit…
What kind of male characters would you all like to see to compliment the really well written female characters? (I think Kas is well written, and Caithe).

Canakun.8031:

Well, I’m not an MRA, but I’ll assume that what I’m about to say is similar to their rhetoric. Maybe if you just opened your mind and considered the possibiltiy that your worldview is incorrect, it wouldn’t feel like a dead horse being beaten?

I did, I’m a white guy, I realized my privileged view was wrong, oh so wrong.

Canakun.8031:

Oh, no, there IS an earnings gap. But how is an earnings gap an injustice? What you need to understand is that the earnings gap isn’t telling us that between a woman and a man working the same job, a man is earning slightly more than that woman simply because he’s a man. What the earning gap is telling us, if you employ your reading comprehension skills I sincerely hope you picked up in primary school, is that over the average hours worked by all men and all women, women (again, on average) earn slightly less than men (on average). Women get paid the same as men individually, it’s just there are less women working, and more men working in higher paying fields (fields such as mining, construction, etc.) Depending on your country, go to your bureau of statistics web page and look for the difference in earnings between men and women. What it will say, black and white, is that this is an average built up over all hours worked across all fields by all men and all women. There is no PAY gap. There is an EARNINGS gap. So long as we’re a species that procreates sexually, with the female of our species carrying the child in her womb, there will ALWAYS be that earning gap.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/08/3424043/gender-wage-gap-myth/
Plenty of info here, women who have the same education and work the same hours earn less, there is a pay gap that cant be explained by the classic scapegoats like “men work more” or “men have better education!”
The thinkprogress article has lots of links there, hope it enlightens you on the subject.

Canakun.8031:

If you look deeper, at more specific areas, there are actually other earning gaps…for example, in men and women aged between 19-29, women are actually earning more on average than men. There is an earnings gap that is age group specific, and it is in favor of women. It is not a wage gap, it is an earnings gap.

Source?
I provided 2 research articles, 2 goverment summaries and 1 thinkprogress article with 10+ different research articles linked, I expected your position to have some sort of research to back it up.

Raziel.4216:

Why then? source?

Why what? Why are they marginalized? They aren’t. It’s offensive to every ACTUALLY marginalized group to suggest that women are, for being women, marginalized. When you look at rights, benefits, etc. that the government gives to men and women, and compare them, women end up being better off. This is limited to the western world, ofcourse. Women technically have more government rights given to them than men. Is that typical of marginalized groups? My findings would suggest that, uh, no, it isn’t.

Good for your findings, howver, proffesional findings indicate that about 20% of the gap is unexplained (remember, we already killed the “different hours, different jobs, differenet preparation” myth) and that’s attributed to gender discrimination.
Here, have a good laugh at this tech admitting he hired women because he could pay’em less for doing the same http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/09/26/3572572/tech-exec-gender-wage-gap

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

You just denied 3 long-standing facts, are you sure you’re studying these issues?

Just stating they are “long standing facts” doesn’t actually MAKE them long standing facts. I hope you know that.

That’s why I added research to back it up (refer to previous post) have fun refuting it or provide some of your own of equal standing -research journals or goverment sponsored-research- looking foward to it.

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

Please go ahead, dispute those long-established facts.

I did.

Your findings vs professional findings, yeah, I know what I’ll stick with.

Too long, will continue in next post

Canakun.8031:

Raziel.4216:

Why not? Anet is free to compensate for anything they want, under-representing the privileged group is not an injustice, refer to the social enciclopedia linked above for more info.

Sure they are. But it wouldn’t be a smart thing to do.

Says your “personal findings” I take it?

Canakun.8031:

It’s not a “privilege” that my sex is over represented in video games.

It’s a consequence of a larger privilege, do you know what privilege means?

Canakun.8031:

Guess what…want more women in video games? Start funding groups like the Fine Young Capitalists.

Or play GW2! guess what, want more male protagonists? play anything else!

Canakun.8031:

Stop tearing down the female-written heroines like Bayonetta. Make your own games. Because guess what pumpkin, this is capitalism. The audience drives the market. So long as you have straight white boys who can’t be bothered filling their societal roles of “checking their privilege,” and who would prefer to just play video games and stick their middle finger at the rest of the world, you will have a market seeped in this types of characters.
Feel free to see everything as an injustice, but just understand that it isn’t one.

THANK YOU for saying that, you see, diversification is GOOD for business!
Oh thank you for shooting yourself in the foot with that, here:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf
Notice 48% of gamers are female?
And only 4% of last year’s top games targetted this rough half of the gamer population.

There’re more girls playing than you knew, but I guess you’d have to read actual research instead of your “personal findings”