Guild Wars 2

Shriketalon.1937:

And yet here you are, with your own thoughts and opinions, your own insights and ideas, enjoying a hobby completely separate from your main vocation. You have depth, just like every other human being, nuances and history that make you a unique individual.

You are special, Tobias! I believe in you!

Heh. Sorry, I’m not all that special a person . . .

But at the same time, as is mentioned above about the philosophical points – just because I have insights, ideas, bias, and a hobby . . . that’s not who I am. So what defines a person or a character? The question isn’t a light rhetorical jab at you, it’s something to ponder.

And I repeat: It strikes me Braham is not meant to be someone who is your simple hero we see in video games or fiction all the time. He’s young, and what he knew he wanted turned out to not be so simple. He’ll figure it out eventually and be a better person for it.

The What is simple. A good story needs a proper cast to move smoothly, and a good character needs a relevant tale to grow and change.

A good story doesn’t need a proper cast, it just makes it neat and simple. The classics of fantasy literature are full of “improper” handlings of characters. I’ll level the spotlight right at the easiest, biggest elephant in the room: Lord of the Rings, Merry, Pippin, Legolas, and Gimli. For most of the first book, the two hobbits are almost . . . invisible, they don’t have any roles and they barely have characters. Legolas and Gimli likewise barely have characterization before Helm’s Deep . . . and have less after. (In fact, they got more in the films than they did in the books.)

(And that is the least of the awkward bits of the story which don’t serve the core of the tale. But that’s another forum entirely.)

Season 2 has incredibly awkward moments as a direct result of relying on irrelevant characters.

Yeah, and I have a ton of issues with the general handling of things . . . the story is nicer and tighter but no less rushed than the Personal Story was in getting through the necessary Plot Hoops. There’s not enough time spent actually developing things, just making them so and rushing to the next point. And from what I hear about the last two parts it’s still happening.

You can’t do that and expect players/readers/viewers to keep up and suspend disbelief.

You say that Braham has plenty of potential, and that you see the trails of his future heroism? Why doesn’t it bother you that he hasn’t had a character arc in an entire year’s time?

Because it’s the only thing in the LW which has any scent of being slow-played and I’m not going to start trying to push them into rushing it like they are the rest of the goshdarned story.

Of course I’m a big fan of slow-played stories or development.

Again, I’m going to reference the three characters above. I especially am going to reference Taran now – and if you haven’t looked it up you really really should. Taran of Caer Dallben is exactly how Braham comes off – starting off brash and boisterous about how they’re going to be totally awesome and completely failing the first few times they try to make it happen. And eventually, they stop worrying about it and just . . . become.

Miles Vorkosigan is an odder example, but even he has an extremely slow played increase in maturity over several books. Also “hero” is so . . . so debatable when referencing him.

Lastly Simon Snowlock doesn’t really grow up until the end of the books. By the way? Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn really should be required reading for someone who wants to look at fantasy fiction.

Not familiar with the others, and it’s probably about time I reread MST – it’s been a while. I’ll have to see if my copies of To Green Angel Tower are accessible.

That said, Simon does have agency in MST pretty much from the start. He might spend a lot of the story following the plans of others, but it’s very clear that he has his own aims and ideals that are causing him to continue maintaining the alliances he does. Many of those are relatively humble for much of the book (until you realise the ramifications, which IIRC he wasn’t aware of – trying to avoid dropping spoilers here); he’s not simply ‘the guy who helps others to do their things’. He’s helping his allies because he sees that as the best way to achieve his own goals.

Now, it probably helps here that Simon is a viewpoint character and thus that we can see what he’s thinking when, if he’d been a non-viewpoint character like Braham, we might not have seen that. At the moment, though, we don’t really see much agency from Braham apart from the apparent hope that if he hangs around enough that some of the glory accrued by others will rub off on him.

This may be a gross misrepresentation of his actual character… but if so, we’re not seeing it.

Shriketalon.1937:

You know that cliche where a female character exists solely to support the efforts of the more interesting and more proactive males? It’s terrible characterization that crops up in a lot of media…and Braham is just the reversal. His entire role is that of a support character, existing solely to make other people’s lives easier, without any individual purpose of his own. He basically doesn’t exist outside of his capacity to help other people complete their own agency, for he brings absolutely none to the table on his own.

Personally, I think this is the crux of the issue.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with someone being, essentially, a supporting character – the wind beneath someone else’s wings, to quote the song. The problem comes when you enter the realm of the cliche where one gender has all the do-ers and the other gender is universally support-ers. The biconics in particular, and to a lesser extent some of the other important characters, really do feel like the writers have taken the cliche Shriketalon refers to above and genderflipped it.

Perhaps this is deliberate – the writers are essentially delivering a ‘see how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot’ to the male playerbase. However, a better structure would be to have an equitable split of do-ers and support-ers across both genders – at the moment, it does feel as if we have the token male serving the same role as you typically see the token female playing in those tired old tropes. Genderflipping the trope doesn’t make it any better except as a political statement.

draxynnic.3719:

Not familiar with the others, and it’s probably about time I reread MST – it’s been a while. I’ll have to see if my copies of To Green Angel Tower are accessible.

That said, Simon does have agency in MST pretty much from the start. He might spend a lot of the story following the plans of others, but it’s very clear that he has his own aims and ideals that are causing him to continue maintaining the alliances he does. Many of those are relatively humble for much of the book (until you realise the ramifications, which IIRC he wasn’t aware of – trying to avoid dropping spoilers here); he’s not simply ‘the guy who helps others to do their things’. He’s helping his allies because he sees that as the best way to achieve his own goals.

Now, it probably helps here that Simon is a viewpoint character and thus that we can see what he’s thinking when, if he’d been a non-viewpoint character like Braham, we might not have seen that. At the moment, though, we don’t really see much agency from Braham apart from the apparent hope that if he hangs around enough that some of the glory accrued by others will rub off on him.

This may be a gross misrepresentation of his actual character… but if so, we’re not seeing it.

See, I reread the trilogy usually every year before I wound up putting them in a storage box when moving and now can’t locate which “Books” box they wound up in. So . . . you’re half right about Simon but the big thing is he is the viewpoint character. And he’s still a young moron until The Call Finds Where He Lives and he winds up on the run. He’s a viewpoint character so we can see inside his head . . . and most of the early character is the kind of person Braham comes off as to a lot of people apparently. He doesn’t do much of consequence (or of obvious consequence) until about halfway to two thirds of the way through “The Dragonbone Chair” and ostensibly he winds up making things worse more often than he does better. The ability to see inside his head . . . well, when the viewpoint in the third book is Miriamele? You get to see how others see Simon, when we aren’t privy to what’s in his head.

Though as I said . . . Taran is perhaps closer to how Braham is, especially before the third book of the Prydain Chronicles. Mostly useless unless a Plot Trinket is in his hands, and only begins to realize it when he starts seeing people dying around him. (Also a good read and I think every library has a copy of these books somewhere in their Young Fantasy area.)

As for the rest of the matter . . . I’d like to point out the ladies of the Biconics aren’t exempt from problems either. If anything, they’ve got it worse with the little romance going on and Rox’s distractions with Stone Warband. Braham may be the simplest just to prevent the entire group from having so many complexes going on they fold under pressure like Destiny’s Edge after Snaff became lunch.

(. . . what do you mean ‘too soon’?)

I could dispute the early stuff, since there’s a difference between being young and unsophisticated (I don’t think he was ever ‘stupid’ per se) versus having no agenda – Smon did certainly have his own agenda back then, even if it was essentially a child’s agenda. But that’s kind of a minor issue.

More significantly, you mention Simon as having done little of consequence until a significant part of the way through Dragonbone Chair… but to put that into context, that’s the first book, of four if you get the paperback editions. It’s also interesting that you mention Miriamele, since as I recall one of the things that comes up in her thought-track is that she cannot conceive that Simon could possibly be behind the deeds attributed to Snowlock. Her mental image of Simon was formed in that early section of Dragonbone Chair (since they didn’t meet again until the third book), and totally off not just what Simon had become, but also what the people who actually had been with Simon in the intervening time thought of him.

Thing is, even if you consider him to be agendaless early on, from the reader’s perspective it isn’t actually that long. It’s a few hundred pages in… if you’re a fast reader, that can be knocked over in an afternoon. It’s not like you’re waiting for a year after his introduction for Simon to become an independent character.

In Braham’s case… it will soon be two years since his introduction. We’re also in Season 2, and the second half therof – while we don’t know how many seasons there are intended to be, this could be seen as book 2 of a series. Imagine if Simon had still been the calf-headed kitchen boy that he started out as beyond the halfway point of Stone of Farewell – that’s essentially what Braham is looking like.

Now, having an agenda doesn’t need to mean that he develops his own pathos. It could also be that he starts taking an active role in some of the others’s stories rather than simply tagging along as a meatshield with mommy issues (which, come to think on it, is another gender-flipped cliche). For instance, we could see Braham getting into Rytlock’s face about how he’s been treating Rox (something the PC has never had a chance to do… many of my characters are actually feeling personally insulted about Rytlock’s comments about how Scarlet might still be out there because Rox held back to provide urgent medical attention) or coming up with some idea to make the people who stole Kasmeer’s inheritance uncomfortable. Stuff which could still be concentrating on looking after his pack, but which doesn’t involve just following the herd all the time.

Let me reply on behalf of Braham to all these deep thoughts in the previous posts:

uh-huh

How is that for depth? Braham is a sponge soaking up knowledge meanwhile providing protection to his friends. He wil have his day.

Greetings Leah, very happy to see you on the team – great work on the last 2 episodes

For myself, I’m still not really connecting with Kasmeer. She comes off a bit too “Reese Witherspoon goes on an adventure with Scoobie and the gang”. Here is the Kasmeer I keep waiting to see:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/cb/The_Nightmare_Unveiled_loading_screen.jpg

I do applaud setting her and Jory on the alternate path inside Glint’s Lair, that was brilliant. I could still hear the conversation, but it felt a bit removed from me, it was still my adventure.

draxynnic.3719:

More significantly, you mention Simon as having done little of consequence until a significant part of the way through Dragonbone Chair… but to put that into context, that’s the first book, of four if you get the paperback editions.

It’s still a significant chunk of story. Especially considering the thing he does of consequence two thirds of the way in is . . . well, stay alive and hold onto a Plot Trinket.
The first thing he does we could consider “heroic” in terms of discussing the story is literally in the last three chapters of the book. (I’m not spoiling it.)

I love the book, and I love the character. But if you start examining it the same people look at characters elsewhere? He’s just not that impressive a hero until very late in the story, by the measuring stick used on others. He is, for all intents and purposes, someone ordinary who is thrown into adventure.

It’s also interesting that you mention Miriamele, since as I recall one of the things that comes up in her thought-track is that she cannot conceive that Simon could possibly be behind the deeds attributed to Snowlock.

. . . which is why I mentioned some posts ago it’d be fun if that happened with Olivia coming across Braham during some downtime between LS2 and LS3 in Lion’s Arch.

In Braham’s case… it will soon be two years since his introduction. We’re also in Season 2, and the second half therof – while we don’t know how many seasons there are intended to be, this could be seen as book 2 of a series. Imagine if Simon had still been the calf-headed kitchen boy that he started out as beyond the halfway point of Stone of Farewell – that’s essentially what Braham is looking like.

Yes, but . . . Simon still was that way. It was apparent in a conversation where he decided to angst over realizing everyone was dying around him and it wasn’t fair. Also, I think more time passed between Simon’s two points than Braham’s two points . . . it’s hard to say since I haven’t come across a hard timeline of when things happened in GW2’s LW.

Now, having an agenda doesn’t need to mean that he develops his own pathos. It could also be that he starts taking an active role in some of the others’s stories rather than simply tagging along as a meatshield with mommy issues (which, come to think on it, is another gender-flipped cliche).

He does take an active role – as an anchor to keep Taimi grounded.

For instance, we could see Braham getting into Rytlock’s face about how he’s been treating Rox (something the PC has never had a chance to do… many of my characters are actually feeling personally insulted about Rytlock’s comments about how Scarlet might still be out there because Rox held back to provide urgent medical attention) or coming up with some idea to make the people who stole Kasmeer’s inheritance uncomfortable. Stuff which could still be concentrating on looking after his pack, but which doesn’t involve just following the herd all the time.

I don’t know about you, my character did get to call out Rytlock about it just before he disappeared into Barradin’s tomb. Rytlock brushed it off as “tough love for a good subordinate”.

But as of the last part I did (and have had time to do), Braham was more interested in being a shield for Taimi (and she needs it).

Woodsman Silencio.9361:

Let me reply on behalf of Braham to all these deep thoughts in the previous posts:

uh-huh

How is that for depth? Braham is a sponge soaking up knowledge meanwhile providing protection to his friends. He wil have his day.

Assuming we can have more than one story thread of consequence advanced per chapter . . . seriously, there needs to be more concurrent events taking place over these updates Even if it’s just dialogue or conversations elsewhere to advance things which aren’t connected to the main plot.

I’ll even take some people in Lion’s Arch saying Tixx is coming back soon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I had a recent conversation with someone about gender in regards to characters and how it’s unfair to use it as a handle with which to start drama/controversies.

Before you have any misconceptions, I have no issues with male characters being regarded with less importance than female characters.

The thing is, the writing is beginning to feel more and more rather misandric. As we go on, there’s an ever increasing praise for the female characters, while the male characters are shunted further into the background.

To be honest, at first, I really didn’t care, because Braham had a good start, and Canach was enjoyable. But now it’s starting to go a bit too far, imo.

Tobias Trueflight

There’s so many wrong turns this usually takes – replace “specific gender” with “specific race” and you get a treasure trove of other obligatory problems which “need to be examined”. Some of them have some value (why is it almost always asuran tech which people fall back on to provide the deus ex machina?) and some others are expected from the theme of the current climate (humans don’t have much in the world beyond their little corner of Queensdale).

I’m sorry, but there are more problems going on than whether or not male characters have agency or presence.

I agree that the issue is bigger than whether or not male characters have agency or presence. I never said it was the only or biggest issue – I did not start the discussion on the issue. I was merely adding my 2 cents at first and in my previous post I was merely hoping to fix a misunderstanding I saw between you and the other posters – the argument isn’t about Braham, he’s just being used as an example of a main male character with the subliminal message of “this is the same for all other major male characters.”

And just because there are more problems, doesn’t mean one problem should be overlooked.

There are issues with racial stereotypes filling the plot devices, though with the sylvari no longer being anti/con-corruption and with an extended presence of charr in Camp Resolve, this is hopefully changing. We’ll see.

And for the record: I don’t mind Trahearne. He’s not my favorite character, but he’s not bad.

Tobias Trueflight

We don’t need more deaths of developed characters, or secondary characters, in order to drop pathos on underdeveloped characters to force them into a role.

I agree, we don’t need more deaths to provide the purpose. It was merely one example that came to the top of my head – killing a character, while drastic and permanent, is also impactful if done right (the chapter 8 PS deaths and Belinda were not).

It was also why I first suggested bringing Olivia back. :P

Tobias Trueflight

As I keep saying, it seems to me that’s designed to be part of the character – he’s not the awesome hero he thought he would be just by virtue of choosing to act. Along the way he’s going to learn you don’t need to try to be a hero. You just are one.

No disagreement, but the gender-specific fixation is notable and if continued can become uncomfortable. That’s all my stance is.

I reallycouldn’t give a skritt’s behind if Braham improved, in all honesty. I would enjoy seeing it, sure, but it’s not a necessity. I wrote out a bit of a rant on the topic, but I really don’t care to go into it because I’m sure I’ll come off as sexist or the like and I have no intent to. I’ll just say that ever since the Living World started, there was a lot more focus on the female characters. In of itself, it’s not a problem. But reducing focus on other characters when there could be, that is a problem.

I doubt I would hold any care about this topic if Episode 3 didn’t just brush off Braham’s issues with Eir. Just suddenly see her fighting and “wow yeah I forgive her for leaving me and my dad when I was just a baby.” Because there is any relation between the two.

But where Braham’s falling short for being a main character, Canach is picking up. I just wish there were more such situations.

Canach had more time than Braham devoted to his story, so yeah, that’s a given.

Not really, actually. While Canach was first introduced, he was gone for most of the time that Braham was not. From Last Stand at Southsun until Edge of the Mists, Canach was MIA – Braham, however, continued getting little snippet updates (like Olivia crushing his poor heart) between Flame and Frost:Retribution and Queen’s Jubilee.

But not every story has to be told,

No disagreement and never said they need to be.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I doubt I would hold any care about this topic if Episode 3 didn’t just brush off Braham’s issues with Eir. Just suddenly see her fighting and “wow yeah I forgive her for leaving me and my dad when I was just a baby.” Because there is any relation between the two.

Mmm, you see it that way? Huh. Interesting . . . that’s not what I see out of that scene, after stopping to think about it from what we know of norn culture instead of . . . you know, applying modern human sensibilities and morals.

But where Braham’s falling short for being a main character, Canach is picking up. I just wish there were more such situations.

He’s not getting enough time in comparison.

Canach had more time than Braham devoted to his story, so yeah, that’s a given.

Not really, actually. While Canach was first introduced, he was gone for most of the time that Braham was not. From Last Stand at Southsun until Edge of the Mists, Canach was MIA – Braham, however, continued getting little snippet updates (like Olivia crushing his poor heart) between Flame and Frost:Retribution and Queen’s Jubilee.

No, Canach had Lost Shores as well, and a short story on the blog. (A practice I’m somewhat glad is done.) Braham wasn’t present for around half of the first season all told, while Canach . . . well, wastefully sat in a jail cell because there wasn’t enough real estate to add in myriad side-threads of story.

Seriously, that’s my #1 point to leave for advice on making this “Living World” feel alive – get multiple threads going at the same time to give the appearance other places in the world are moving forward while the Pact is in the Silverwastes. It’s been sadly negligent to not be having regular updates on Lion’s Arch while we’ve been in the Maguuma Wastes.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

draxynnic.3719:

More significantly, you mention Simon as having done little of consequence until a significant part of the way through Dragonbone Chair… but to put that into context, that’s the first book, of four if you get the paperback editions.

It’s still a significant chunk of story. Especially considering the thing he does of consequence two thirds of the way in is . . . well, stay alive and hold onto a Plot Trinket.
The first thing he does we could consider “heroic” in terms of discussing the story is literally in the last three chapters of the book. (I’m not spoiling it.)

I love the book, and I love the character. But if you start examining it the same people look at characters elsewhere? He’s just not that impressive a hero until very late in the story, by the measuring stick used on others. He is, for all intents and purposes, someone ordinary who is thrown into adventure.

I don’t know, there’s another thing he does while holding onto the plot trinket and surviving that proves very important. Possibly one of the most important things in the first two books, in fact.

More significantly, though, is that we’re looking at things from the reader’s perspective. For a slow reader (averaging one chapter a day, say)… Simon goes from mooncalf to SPOILER in less than two months, and they’ve got their payoff. We don’t know how long Braham’s story is, but we’re nearing the end of the second year since his introduction and he’s still just… muscle.

And as Konig says, it’s not just Braham, but a general trend. Canach is in service to Anise. Logan is a controversial case, but his supporters see Anise taking great delight in tormenting him, while his detractors throw all sorts of insults at his relationship with Jennah. Between Destiny’s Edge and the biconics, the only strong male characters are Snaff and Rytlock, and they’re KIA and MIA respectively. Include world leaders, and you have Trahearne (also controversial, but IMO, he’s at least been characterised much better in S2 than in the PS), Steward Gixx, Smodur the Unflinching, and the Norn leader whose name I can’t remember off the top of my head – but with the exception of Trahearne, they don’t stand out as much.

Out of the characters that the spotlight has fallen on, there are a lot more female characters to begin with (7/10 of Destiny’s Edge and the biconics, for instance) and this initial imbalance just makes it stand out more that on top of this, the male characters are being put in subservient roles (Braham and Logan, leaving only Rytlock). Conversely, the only female character out of that 7 that gets put in a subservient role is Rox – and, frankly, the way Rytlock has been treating Rox is borderline bullying in my eyes and thus his character is actually weakened too.

So if we think of the male characters that are currently playing the most significant roles in the story… we have Logan, Canach, and Braham, who are all to a greater or lesser extent defined by their relationship to a woman (Jennah, Anise, and Eir respectively. I guess you could count Taimi on Braham as well…). We have Rytlock, who is bullying a woman. And we have Trahearne, who a large portion of the fanbase hates. For the record, I don’t, but when he’s possibly the only strong, independent male in the spotlight who isn’t a bully, this is a bit of a problem.

(Incidentally, I think I saw that line too, but it wasn’t really going nearly as far as I wanted to. There’s tough love, and then there’s reaming someone out for making what turned out to be the right call under the circumstances.)

I’ll have to reply later, as I have a long shift ahead of me at work but . . .

I just don’t see the “male character problem” as a looming problem that has to be solved. I see worse things which need fixing before we get talking about that. Primarily how it seemed the pacing has been way off for most of the PS/LW offerings, and how the latter laser-focuses on what the current issue is rather than having broader implications.

Second to that, the other problem is primarily a plot one rather than character one. Notably in how much seems to rely on ignorance or apathy about things in order to get things in motion. Especially the case with Scarlet before, and Modremoth now.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, you see it that way? Huh. Interesting . . . that’s not what I see out of that scene, after stopping to think about it from what we know of norn culture instead of . . . you know, applying modern human sensibilities and morals.

The thing is that, to me, Braham isn’t really typical of norn culture. He’s very much a model of Wolf’s teaching of close knit communities. And his disdain for Eir has been brewing for years. Such things do not come to understandings after one decent talk – even ignoring human sensibilities and morals.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, Canach had Lost Shores as well, and a short story on the blog. (A practice I’m somewhat glad is done.) Braham wasn’t present for around half of the first season all told, while Canach . . . well, wastefully sat in a jail cell because there wasn’t enough real estate to add in myriad side-threads of story.

Braham was in-game, however, and had his own short story too, lest you forget. Unlike Canach, he was never removed from the game. He was always to be found somewhere – with the possible exception of Tequatl Rising and Blood and Madness Mk I. That’s my point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Seriously, that’s my #1 point to leave for advice on making this “Living World” feel alive – get multiple threads going at the same time to give the appearance other places in the world are moving forward while the Pact is in the Silverwastes. It’s been sadly negligent to not be having regular updates on Lion’s Arch while we’ve been in the Maguuma Wastes.

Which was done for Secret of Southsun until Queen’s Jubilee, where you can see new dialogues and scenes between Braham and Cragstead folks, or Rox and Frostbite and other Nolan Hatchery folks. After Last Stand at Southsun, many of the refugees you could have helped during Flame and Frost suddenly wound up in Braham and Rox’s instances, with dialogue relating to whether or not you helped them.

I agree that if they want a true Living World rather than a continuous set of DLCs, that’s what they need alongside the main plot. But it seems their LW workforce has reduced in size…?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I just don’t see the “male character problem” as a looming problem that has to be solved.

IMO, it’s more of a “potential problem” than a “looming problem”.

It exists, but in little enough (but growing) quantities that it isn’t a “problem” but if left alone, it can be. Like a little water seeping down the wall of your basement – it’s not a problem, but if it continues mold can grow, wood can rot, and that’s an issue.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, you see it that way? Huh. Interesting . . . that’s not what I see out of that scene, after stopping to think about it from what we know of norn culture instead of . . . you know, applying modern human sensibilities and morals.

The thing is that, to me, Braham isn’t really typical of norn culture. He’s very much a model of Wolf’s teaching of close knit communities. And his disdain for Eir has been brewing for years. Such things do not come to understandings after one decent talk – even ignoring human sensibilities and morals.

But have they come to understandings, or is he just not being openly hostile about her being brought up anymore?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, Canach had Lost Shores as well, and a short story on the blog. (A practice I’m somewhat glad is done.) Braham wasn’t present for around half of the first season all told, while Canach . . . well, wastefully sat in a jail cell because there wasn’t enough real estate to add in myriad side-threads of story.

Braham was in-game, however, and had his own short story too, lest you forget.

I guess I did forget . . . I looked it up and apparently it was shorter than Canach’s which is why I forgot about it.

Unlike Canach, he was never removed from the game. He was always to be found somewhere – with the possible exception of Tequatl Rising and Blood and Madness Mk I. That’s my point.

I thought Canach was in the jail cell at Fort Marriner, and just wouldn’t talk with anyone.

Which was done for Secret of Southsun until Queen’s Jubilee, where you can see new dialogues and scenes between Braham and Cragstead folks, or Rox and Frostbite and other Nolan Hatchery folks. After Last Stand at Southsun, many of the refugees you could have helped during Flame and Frost suddenly wound up in Braham and Rox’s instances, with dialogue relating to whether or not you helped them.

I agree that if they want a true Living World rather than a continuous set of DLCs, that’s what they need alongside the main plot. But it seems their LW workforce has reduced in size…?

I dunno, it seemed after the Jubilee many of the plot threads got lost/dropped/swept aside to focus on the story about Scarlet’s doings. Which wouldn’t have been bad if they had also done a full workup of that at the time . . . instead of dripping in details after the fact.

And I know this isn’t easy — oh Six Gods I know that. I ran a tabletop campaign which had to deal with a central plot and one or two plots for each character (one major, one minor). The paperwork for keeping track of it took up half a notebook before I finished setting the last round of details for when we finally get to finish it off.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But have they come to understandings, or is he just not being openly hostile about her being brought up anymore?

Maybe not understandings, but it feels like all hostility was removed and they’re okay with each other.

Which to me felt like too great a leap over a simple fight and dinner.

I thought Canach was in the jail cell at Fort Marriner, and just wouldn’t talk with anyone.

No, that was Mai Trin who was in the jail cell. Canach disappeared completely for during Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates, and at the end of Sky Pirates Mai Trin was placed in that cage with the same dialogue until her escape in Edge of the Mists – where in that very same cage, Canach was placed.

Canach was 100% MIA between Last Stand at Southsun and Edge of the Mists – nearly a full year (10 months iirc).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I dunno, it seemed after the Jubilee many of the plot threads got lost/dropped/swept aside to focus on the story about Scarlet’s doings. Which wouldn’t have been bad if they had also done a full workup of that at the time . . . instead of dripping in details after the fact.

More of after Tequatl Rising and SAB2.

Delays keeping me from proper replies. Real world issues, how inconvenient.

The What is simple. A good story needs a proper cast to move smoothly, and a good character needs a relevant tale to grow and change.

A good story doesn’t need a proper cast, it just makes it neat and simple. The classics of fantasy literature are full of “improper” handlings of characters. I’ll level the spotlight right at the easiest, biggest elephant in the room: Lord of the Rings, Merry, Pippin, Legolas, and Gimli.

Season 2 has incredibly awkward moments as a direct result of relying on irrelevant characters.

Yeah, and I have a ton of issues with the general handling of things . . . the story is nicer and tighter but no less rushed than the Personal Story was in getting through the necessary Plot Hoops. There’s not enough time spent actually developing things, just making them so and rushing to the next point. And from what I hear about the last two parts it’s still happening.

It’s worth noting that a “proper cast” doesn’t mean the ideal people to solve a problem, but a group who’s character arcs enhance the overall plot and narrative.

In regards to your later point, I completely agree. The story is rather rushed and hurtles through major plot points, but I would further dig myself into my fortified position by asserting that the rushed plot is directly linked to the bad casting.

In Season 1, they deliberately designed the Biconics as smaller scale underdogs because they were trying to ensure players could participate in the season without finishing the personal story. As a result, we got a cast of characters that were designed for smaller scale adventures and more minor conflicts. By making the mistake of using this crew as the main cast for future seasons, they threw street level heroes into a grand adventure to save the world…and it doesn’t work.

Now they’re rushing to power up the Biconics to the point where they can stand toe to toe with world leaders on the epic stage, and the result has been hamfisted and ludicrous. Marjory has stopped being a detective and is now a front line shocktrooper wielding an artifact blade (take a drink if Jory and Belinda end up being the key to defeating the Shadow of the Dragon). Kasmeer is no longer a down and out ex-noble, and is now the pinkie finger of the queen’s hand using her lie detecting super powers. Rox isn’t a gladium anymore, she’s BFFs with the charr’s greatest hero and advising the imperator of an entire legion. Taimi isn’t a random kid with a very, very bad obsession, she’s a kid who’s device singlehandedly saved one of the most iconic inventions of her race and was prominent enough to be stolen by one of their top governing officials.

But none of these plot details are directly linked to the rise of Mordremoth with the exception of Taimi. As a result, they’re rushing to include the Zephyrite intrigue, the backstory of Glint, the Pact war effort, the Inquest machinations, the corruption of sylvari, the fate of the Pale Tree, and the side events like Rytlock’s little misadventure and the politics of Kryta and the White Mantle without a core cast that actually moves those plot points forward. So we have an erratic juggling act instead of a smooth story.

What they should have done is sit down and build a cast based upon what they wanted to accomplish with the story. For instance, three Pact characters (Laranthir of the Wild, Halvora Snapdagger, and Wynnet Fairhaired), one outside consultant (Professor Gorr), a down-to-earth character (Belinda Delaqua), and a reluctant hero (a new Zephyrite character) would have been a perfect mix, since it allows every character to bring something to the table, and for every single situation to showcase the personal connections or capabilities of the main cast.

Shriketalon.1937:

It’s worth noting that a “proper cast” doesn’t mean the ideal people to solve a problem, but a group who’s character arcs enhance the overall plot and narrative.

That’s not what I said about “proper cast”, exactly. Honestly the best people to solve a problem are player characters (and always will be that way since we are the ones who are the active force in moving the story).

. . . again, I say “proper cast” hasn’t stopped some stories from being lauded as classics of unimpeachable quality. (The Hobbit, Romeo & Juliet . . . Star Trek . . .)

In regards to your later point, I completely agree. The story is rather rushed and hurtles through major plot points, but I would further dig myself into my fortified position by asserting that the rushed plot is directly linked to the bad casting.

No, I think the rushed plot is directly linked to the rushed development process which delivered unto us “Press 2 to Kill Zhaitan” because they ran out of time they budgeted themselves. Of course, I think that only lighting a fire under them at that point was going to get it to publishing, because it was dragging a bit. Worse than the 1.7 block of post-release Minecraft updates.

In Season 1, they deliberately designed the Biconics as smaller scale underdogs because they were trying to ensure players could participate in the season without finishing the personal story. As a result, we got a cast of characters that were designed for smaller scale adventures and more minor conflicts. By making the mistake of using this crew as the main cast for future seasons, they threw street level heroes into a grand adventure to save the world…and it doesn’t work.

It could work, though, and that’s where I really have hope. Street-level heroes have worked out before, especially in anthology settings – check out Thieves’ World (But . . . oh Dwayna don’t do it if you’re under 18 . . .) for an instance of it. Or a book in the old TSR D&D series called “Pool of Radiance”.

I think it’s not the characters which holds the LS back so much as it does how it progresses in small bites currently, and in each one only a few characters have the focus of the spotlight . . . and it’s an inconsistent amount of spotlight being shared about. (Which could fix Braham if they gave him something to star in again.)

Now they’re rushing to power up the Biconics to the point where they can stand toe to toe with world leaders on the epic stage, and the result has been hamfisted and ludicrous. Marjory has stopped being a detective and is now a front line shocktrooper wielding an artifact blade (take a drink if Jory and Belinda end up being the key to defeating the Shadow of the Dragon).

No bets on that, but I will note the Shadow of the Dragon is apparently a Champion of Mordremoth and thus . . . there could always be more. Like there is always a Shatterer.

Also, I confess I wouldn’t mind it if Belinda’s sword is a one-shot powerful artifact . . . so long as it’s one shot and then expended. I seriously expected from how things progressed Caladbolg was such a thing and now am sitting back going “huh”.

Kasmeer is no longer a down and out ex-noble, and is now the pinkie finger of the queen’s hand using her lie detecting super powers.

No, she’s now a down-and-broke noble who doesn’t have any money to hold up the image of being a noble. Try to keep a bigger picture in mind, my friend. She has a rank of sorts, but she has nothing to go with it. Like stripping Caudecus of being a Minister would not dent his ability to be dangerous – it would make him undoubtedly more so, but that’s another thing entirely.

Also, again, I support the idea of mesmer mind-magic being able to sort through things. I’ll note it’s not unheard of to do it without the aid of magic, and is pulled off in real life to great effect after all. I played through that scene a few times and it seems Kasmeer’s ability isn’t 100% accurate to sniff out an exact lie, but she can catch when someone is hiding something and can use that and reasoning to figure out what part stands out as “incorrect”.

Patrick Jane could make a fortune pretending to be a mesmer, it seems

1/2

Rox isn’t a gladium anymore, she’s BFFs with the charr’s greatest hero and advising the imperator of an entire legion.

Let’s be honest, my charr warrior also rescued people from being gladiums, and is a BFF with the charr’s greatest hero and can maybe mouth off to the Tribunes a small amount with the rank of Warmaster to back himself up.

Taimi isn’t a random kid with a very, very bad obsession, she’s a kid who’s device singlehandedly saved one of the most iconic inventions of her race and was prominent enough to be stolen by one of their top governing officials.

Hey, like 90% of the asura who exist! How about that. (Yes, sarcasm. I despise this about the asura above anything else – how their tech is simultaneously impressively powerful and impressively broken in the same timeframe.)

But none of these plot details are directly linked to the rise of Mordremoth with the exception of Taimi. As a result, they’re rushing to include the Zephyrite intrigue, the backstory of Glint, the Pact war effort, the Inquest machinations, the corruption of sylvari, the fate of the Pale Tree, and the side events like Rytlock’s little misadventure and the politics of Kryta and the White Mantle without a core cast that actually moves those plot points forward. So we have an erratic juggling act instead of a smooth story.

Very agreed, and this is why I said it really needs to be better laid out than this. I said it last season about Scarlet – she could have been better handled if they’d laid the tracks and details out better rather than rushed into the arc showing her off.

And that’s where I think I’d wind up taking things apart and tinkering with it if I had the project to work on the Living World arcs. To either write the way out of this mess as quickly as possible and start over in Season 4 or have to bludgeon my way to sanity. And Elona.

2/2

Well I was excited about the new narrative director. But look: more Sylvari focus.

To be fair, I’m loving the new story chapters. Caithe’s history and her relationship with Faolain has always been shrouded in mystery. I think it’s great that we’re finally seeing more of her character and the tensions that exist between them.

I guess the new narrative director likes….

…wait for it…

cliffhangers?

DarksunG.9537:

Well I was excited about the new narrative director. But look: more Sylvari focus.

It’s far better than asura focus, or miraculous technology from Rata Sum saving the day. I mean, it wasn’t the sole reason we beat the Great Destroyer long ago, but it became the sole reason we stood a chance against Zhaitan. I’m much more upset about that than the sylvari being in the spotlight.

. . . mostly because Mordremoth is a legitimate concern.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Shriketalon.1937:

It’s worth noting that a “proper cast” doesn’t mean the ideal people to solve a problem, but a group who’s character arcs enhance the overall plot and narrative.

That’s not what I said about “proper cast”, exactly. Honestly the best people to solve a problem are player characters (and always will be that way since we are the ones who are the active force in moving the story).

We are clearly talking about different things. Let me phrase it another way. The author greatly enhances the story when selecting a cast who’s individual character arcs are relevant to the main plot and help push it along. If a character doesn’t have any influence over the story or their individual arc has no relevance to the main plot, they become a distraction rather than an asset. Otherwise you end up with the Belinda ghost scene, a mission that takes time, effort, and resources to produce that does absolutely nothing for the main plot and serves only to shine a spotlight on the author’s personal favorites.

Likewise, the rushed development process. You see it as pushing out content as fast as possible, thus resulting in content that isn’t well paced or polished. I see it as trying to juggle too many balls at once between plot advancement and irrelevant character arcs, and as a result they end up rushing the content. At the end of the day, it’s pretty much two sides of the same coin.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, again, I support the idea of mesmer mind-magic being able to sort through things. I’ll note it’s not unheard of to do it without the aid of magic, and is pulled off in real life to great effect after all. I played through that scene a few times and it seems Kasmeer’s ability isn’t 100% accurate to sniff out an exact lie, but she can catch when someone is hiding something and can use that and reasoning to figure out what part stands out as “incorrect”.

Pixar Rule of Storytelling #19: Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great. Coincidences to get them out of trouble are cheating.

Likewise, Brandon Sanderson’s first of three laws of writing magic: An author’s ability to satisfactorily solve a problem with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands that magic.

You never, ever introduce a previously unknown mystical ability to solve a problem, and that’s exactly what Anet did. They needed to introduce the plot point that the Zephyrites were up to something and that Aerin was acting funky, but since they were relying on characters who knew nothing about the ‘rites or sylvari, they pulled a bunny out of a hat and used complete coincidence to push the plot forward simply because "it’s magic." It’s strongarming the plot rather than allowing it to flow smoothly.

This would be the equivalent of Destiny’s Edge being unable to solve a problem, and Eir turning to the player and saying, deadpan, “It’s alright. I can talk to bees.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rox isn’t a gladium anymore, she’s BFFs with the charr’s greatest hero and advising the imperator of an entire legion.

Let’s be honest, my charr warrior also rescued people from being gladiums, and is a BFF with the charr’s greatest hero and can maybe mouth off to the Tribunes a small amount with the rank of Warmaster to back himself up.

But your charr isn’t Rytlock’s BFF anymore! There can only be one Best Friend Forever! He gave you matching friendship bracelets, Tobias, and now he’s found a new BFF to pal around with and eat ice cream and go to gladiatorial matches. Doesn’t that wrack your very soul?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Very agreed, and this is why I said it really needs to be better laid out than this. I said it last season about Scarlet – she could have been better handled if they’d laid the tracks and details out better rather than rushed into the arc showing her off.

Absolutely agreed. What this all comes down to, though we sometimes talk in circles, is planning out exactly what is necessary for the core parts of the story, and prioritizing those elements above all else. We’ve seen a lot of good ideas in Season 2 poorly executed primarily due to lack of time (gathering the races, the crown of Ascalon, etc), as well as a lot of filler content that didn’t serve any major purpose (most of the Biconics stuff). There needs to be more central planning to iron out what’s actually important, and build the cast and scenery around what will make that solid plot feasible. At the moment, the resource priorities are all out of whack, and it’s resulting in rushed content and haphazard storytelling.

For what it’s worth: I greatly enjoyed this episode. Pacing, story design, mechanics – it had a bit of everything and was a nice change. I can’t really put my finger on why I liked it so much, but I do remember saying that I did in party chat after the first two chapters. The 3rd one with killing Nekthi was a bit heartbreaking though.

Leah… Why was the previous stories cliffhanger not resolved and barely progressed by this weeks story and basically just another cliffhanger added on top of it?

Its not a story, we basically just got background that was interactive and barely adds anything to current events in the LS?
Do not get me wrong, I love the lore, and getting background on the Sylvari was REALLY interesting, but a 2 week wait and LS “to be continued” for it just does not make sense…
What gives?

ErazorZ.5209:

I guess the new narrative director likes….

…wait for it…

cliffhangers?

I’m going to guess that most of what we’ve been seeing was already in place or designed/written before she joined A.net and had little input into the story. I wouldn’t expect to see her hand print on anything until after this portion of LS2, or starting with the next set of episodes.

Also, I don’’t think the ending of this episode is what you could call a ‘cliffhanger’…it doesn’t have that suspense to it that most cliffhangers do…I’d almost consider it as being part 1 of 2 of Episode 8, IMO.

Zaklex.6308:

I’m going to guess that most of what we’ve been seeing was already in place or designed/written before she joined A.net and had little input into the story. I wouldn’t expect to see her hand print on anything until after this portion of LS2, or starting with the next set of episodes.

Also, I don’’t think the ending of this episode is what you could call a ‘cliffhanger’…it doesn’t have that suspense to it that most cliffhangers do…I’d almost consider it as being part 1 of 2 of Episode 8, IMO.

Not even a part, not even a filler… This is was so little even an Anime filler would be ashamed. :/

Shriketalon.1937:

We are clearly talking about different things. Let me phrase it another way. The author greatly enhances the story when selecting a cast who’s individual character arcs are relevant to the main plot and help push it along.

I think it’s easier to actually BACKFILL this sort of thing, honestly. Get your characters and their arcs in first and then figure out how that shapes the story overall. But then, that’s how I handled my novel/novella length writing when asked to do character centric rather than plot centric work.

It also was one of the rougher assignments I had to finish.

Otherwise you end up with the Belinda ghost scene, a mission that takes time, effort, and resources to produce that does absolutely nothing for the main plot and serves only to shine a spotlight on the author’s personal favorites.

. . . playing a devil’s advocate, we don’t know what significance it has later on. Really I think it’s possible that’s a Chekhov’s Gun getting put out there that the scene has a point . . . but later.

Either that or it is, exactly as you said, and gets vindicated later when they go pull that up again to use. (“I’m just going to write this in here and leave it as a blank hook in case someone later on needs it.”)

Most times it’s incredibly hard to tell the difference, even in poorly told stories. Seriously, it’s incredibly hard to see some things as valuable input . . . Harry Potter pulled it off with what seemed like unneeded details which later became important four or five books later. (The babysitter mentioned in the earlier chapters of the first book had a point suddenly in book five.)

Likewise, the rushed development process. You see it as pushing out content as fast as possible, thus resulting in content that isn’t well paced or polished. I see it as trying to juggle too many balls at once between plot advancement and irrelevant character arcs, and as a result they end up rushing the content. At the end of the day, it’s pretty much two sides of the same coin.

Mmm, sure, I’ll agree but I really do think it’s rooted in not giving themselves the proper timeframe to work with. Mostly because it’s been noticed before they have had that issue of leaving themselves enough time to write things . . . or test them thoroughly . . . it’s just a recurring theme, you know?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, again, I support the idea of mesmer mind-magic being able to sort through things. I’ll note it’s not unheard of to do it without the aid of magic, and is pulled off in real life to great effect after all. I played through that scene a few times and it seems Kasmeer’s ability isn’t 100% accurate to sniff out an exact lie, but she can catch when someone is hiding something and can use that and reasoning to figure out what part stands out as “incorrect”.

Pixar Rule of Storytelling #19: Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great. Coincidences to get them out of trouble are cheating.

And I’ll rebut with a tabletop GM’s Rule – it’s okay to “cheat the story” if you need to keep the game going.

Likewise, Brandon Sanderson’s first of three laws of writing magic: An author’s ability to satisfactorily solve a problem with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands that magic.

Dilemma. We’ve already seen in the past mesmer magic which invokes emotions in the targets (assumedly from the names) or capitalizes on mental states . . . primal fears . . . so in theory we already know the magic has to have the ability to read minds as much as affect them.

You never, ever introduce a previously unknown mystical ability to solve a problem, and that’s exactly what Anet did. They needed to introduce the plot point that the Zephyrites were up to something and that Aerin was acting funky, but since they were relying on characters who knew nothing about the ‘rites or sylvari, they pulled a bunny out of a hat and used complete coincidence to push the plot forward simply because "it’s magic." It’s strongarming the plot rather than allowing it to flow smoothly.

I won’t deny there was a bad handling there, because there were better options to go to rather than push the biconics into it. But it is a different issue entirely than Kasmeer’s ability to detect falsehoods . . .

. . . which comes off in all aspects like good cold reading anyway, which can be taught to anyone and probably would be a good skill to hone around the nobility.

1/2

This would be the equivalent of Destiny’s Edge being unable to solve a problem, and Eir turning to the player and saying, deadpan, “It’s alright. I can talk to bees.”

Pfft, you know these writers. It wouldn’t be Eir. It’d be Zojja speaking up about a device she knows she can “borrow” from another asura to solve the problem. Asura always can whip up a device . . . whether it explodes or not . . .

But your charr isn’t Rytlock’s BFF anymore! There can only be one Best Friend Forever! He gave you matching friendship bracelets, Tobias, and now he’s found a new BFF to pal around with and eat ice cream and go to gladiatorial matches. Doesn’t that wrack your very soul?

I’m pretty sure there’s sarcasm in here but as it’s 3am and I was watching some RoosterTeeth videos, I’m sure my calibration is off.

No, what really bothers me is someone keeps moving my chair

Absolutely agreed. What this all comes down to, though we sometimes talk in circles, is planning out exactly what is necessary for the core parts of the story, and prioritizing those elements above all else.

Which reminds me of seeing this . . . actually, as a recurring problem among many serial writers of late between some webcomics I follow (or strongly utilized in some cases like Howard Tayler and Rich Burlew) . . . and brought up sometimes in some of my favorite reviews by C. Sonnenberg.

I guess it’s because people get into writing less through learning the craft and more through practicing it as an art. There’s a marked difference in result . . . even though they may both resemble the other in the end. The path it takes to being created and the difference between fun and serviceable story and masterpiece living on to be studied later.

2/2

I am somehow figuring out what I think is missing: A clear cut goal for our PC

Let`s face it. Season 2 does not really provide a good focused story. In fact it jumps around, creating no sense of urgency, but a situation where we just live in a danger zone and just stroll along a minefield.

We follow more subplots and character quests, than a main narrative.
I mean the “simple” story of: Find out that the roar is an Eldar Dragon by going into uncharted lands Quickly turned into us jumping around several substories, with no main focus or feasable antagonist.
So far our antagonist was …. yeah, who is it? The whole of Mordremoth, who by himself is a natural desaster. Nothing to really pin down.
The only lead to his demise we have was the Master of Peace and the egg, but even that plotpoint seems to be nothing more that a sidestory, since it was hijacked by Caithe`s private agenda.

I am at a loss. I know these developements are needed and were demanded, but it really feels unfocused.

Main problem
It is just not our story. It is the story of other characters, not our PC. However since we are controlling only this character, he has to be present, so things do not end up being exposition to us.

TV shows are able to to follow different characters and develope them by switching szenes.

In a game, we are bound to see things with our character. Our main goal is usually the main plot, as that is our story .
Everytime we are forced into a situation which has clearly the focus on another character it feels like it diminish the story that could actually be told. Even more so if there is no clear influence on the supposed main plot.

That is sadly what happening in S2 for me. We jump around left and right, while there should be a goal in front of us.

So far we did not accomplish a lot, which is a sad thing to see, as the Season is reaching it`s supposed climax .

I see the neccesity of these plots. However, they start to get in the way of a clear straight story. A story I am not even sure is present at the moment.
I only see a big giant cliffhanger at the end and not any kind of conclusion so far.

Do you think it would be possible to structure the LS like that:
- Having a main story, which clearly focuses on the given problem.
- Having the sidestories being optional and branching out.

It is the same way you do it in any other narrative driven RPG. You got the mainstory and the sidequests and subplots are there to enhance the experience, but are not crucial for you to do.

A clear distinction between the two would, at least for me, allow for a better focus.
People could decide which character they would like to follow, or if they just want to continue their main story.

If they want to know why Majory has a sword now? Go play the Ghost szene.
You want to know why Braham and Eir are good again? Go see them in Hoelbrak.

There could also be other mechanics tied to it (reward, gameplay, etc…)

There are so many things the PC didn`t need to be present, but we are forced to see them, because they are crucial to other characters with an impact on the story that can often be summed up in one sentence.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarksunG.9537:

Well I was excited about the new narrative director. But look: more Sylvari focus.

It’s far better than asura focus, or miraculous technology from Rata Sum saving the day. I mean, it wasn’t the sole reason we beat the Great Destroyer long ago, but it became the sole reason we stood a chance against Zhaitan. I’m much more upset about that than the sylvari being in the spotlight.

. . . mostly because Mordremoth is a legitimate concern.

Nah. The issue with the Asura is that they are a deus ex. They just fill holes. Usually they are more fun characters. Although Taimi is a supremely annoying Scarlet apologist super-grrl that magically can do more at the age of 5 then entire corporations of Asura that have been working on & developing gate tech for 100s of years. She’s got a similarly lame but toned down “i’m sassy & misunderstood & can do it all” character as Scarlet. But most aren’t annoying characters like that. Well.. in GW1..

But the Sylvari are the annoying “new kids” that Anet is all hot & bothered over & it’s freekin old. Maybe when they bring the Tengu they’ll have a reason to not focus on the Sylvari.

I personally was enjoying a little more focus on the Sylvari. While there is a little bit of lore on them around, this is the first time we really actually get to see anything about them.

I always liked Trahearne (having a Sylvari as my main toon, I really felt like he was my bro), and I really liked how Canach was portrayed in the most recent LS. So as long as there’s more Trahearne and Canach, I’ll be pretty happy! Of course, there are other characters I want to see more of as well (Logan Thackeray and all the rest of Desiny’s Edge, etc), but that kind of stuff remains to be seen.

Shriketalon.1937:

Otherwise you end up with the Belinda ghost scene, a mission that takes time, effort, and resources to produce that does absolutely nothing for the main plot and serves only to shine a spotlight on the author’s personal favorites.

To me that scene looked like rather blatant foreshadowing for Marjory and the sword. Having Belinda die to Mordrem gives a personal motivation for Marjory to go after Mordremoth. Having the family blade infused with ghost Belinda’s essence will likely lead to some developments in the future, perhaps being one of the keys to defeating or stalling Mordremoth or its champion(s) somehow? Why else would we spend so much time mentioning Marjory learning to use the sword, and all those other narrative hints that have been sprinkled around lately? Perhaps Belinda’s death, including the Delaqua mother’s hinted at animosity/unease toward Marjory dating a noble like Kasmeer, will even lead to some personal drama for Marjory and her family in a later season?

Even if we don’t get the overall narrative payoff right away, it doesn’t mean the Belinda scene is instant fillery fluff or shining a spotlight on one character with the expense of others, IMHO. It could have grave repercussions in a later episode for all we know including the things I’ve mentioned or things none of us except the writers have thought of. We’ll just have to wait and see what they have in mind for us, but for now I’m very suspicious of what they’re going to do now that the pieces are falling into place.

Shriketalon.1937:

You never, ever introduce a previously unknown mystical ability to solve a problem, and that’s exactly what Anet did. They needed to introduce the plot point that the Zephyrites were up to something and that Aerin was acting funky, but since they were relying on characters who knew nothing about the ‘rites or sylvari, they pulled a bunny out of a hat and used complete coincidence to push the plot forward simply because "it’s magic." It’s strongarming the plot rather than allowing it to flow smoothly.

I was under the impression that this sudden ability was possibly hinting at the scene from S1 where Kasmeer was pricked by a thorn in the Tower of Nightmares. Since it’s more or less established (or at least heavily hinted at) the Tower’s plant qualities and nightmare-inducing hallucinations being tied to Modremoth’s influence, it wouldn’t be that big of a stretch to think that the wound might’ve infected Kasmeer somehow and thus begun enhancing her mesmer abilities slyly just like Scarlet’s engineering seemed to become even better after she got out of Omadd’s machine. One of Mordemoth’s spheres of influence is ‘mind’, and aren’t mesmers (which Kasmeer is) all about powers manipulating the mind?

Maybe this is the writers hinting at things to come with Kasmeer as her skills, such as lie detection and perhaps her mesmer abilities as a whole, becoming stronger and stronger over time, before Mordremoth’s rise, and then bad things start happening? Think of it like what happened to Brundle in The Fly; initially the symptoms post-teleportation are minor (just like with Kasmeer post-Tower) but slowly but surely he notices enhanced abilities, and then the horrific truth starts revealing itself to him until it’s too late to turn back.

I found that scene of Kasmeer pointing out she’d been pricked really random in the Tower (why even bother with such a comment unless it leads to something?), but if we think about it and if the writers really are sly enough, it could all be leading up to something, perhaps Modremoth’s growing influence on her. Or then it was just foreshadowing Kasmeer’s naked comment in the camp, but that would be unfortunate. Personally I’m not going to write off the sudden lie detector abilities until I see where the writers are going with it. Of course it’s possible it’s just some random out of the blue thing needed to solve a narrative problem like you’ve said, but wouldn’t it be interesting if it turned out to be more than the sum of its parts in the end? That would give Kasmeer a nice personal motivation and a race against time to defeat Mordremoth before its influence can spread even further: stop the Elder Dragon’s eldritch power, or else she’ll turn into ‘Kasdrem’. Yeah, that’s a long shot, but still a cool twist if it were to happen, and it could tie into earlier releases so well.

And we’ve yet to see what the Consortium plans to do with those Nightmare Tower seeds they were so interested in getting their hands on in Kessex Hills, so I doubt the ToN stuff won’t make a comeback in some form or another in the future, which could include involvement from Kasmeer if the writers do intend to follow up on her pricking her finger scene back in ToN release…

Kasmeers abilities have been revealed to be “nothing more” than a psychological block.
She had these abilities all along, but was not “brave” enough to use them.
Lacking self esteem and the like.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Living-Story-open-questions/4393786

However that was an out-of-game explanation, however so far the thorn is mostly a red hering, till proven otherwise.
Kasmeer is “just” a very powerful Mesmer.

Her other abilties so far are however unexplained magic which feel out of place, making Shriketalons argument a valid point.

These plotpoints could have been resolved better. Kasmeer just suddenly getting vibes of truth feel even more so out of place, since we have a seasoned detective near by, and her abilties seem to be nothing more than simple deduction so far.

Jaken.6801:

Her other abilties so far are however unexplained magic which feel out of place, making Shriketalons argument a valid point.

These plotpoints could have been resolved better. Kasmeer just suddenly getting vibes of truth feel even more so out of place, since we have a seasoned detective near by, and her abilties seem to be nothing more than simple deduction so far.

That’s rather my point – her “ability” for feeling out the truth really does seem to be more ‘reading’ than ‘magic’. Though a real good cold reader can appear to be truly psychic, it is not magic but a lot of work and training.

There might be some mesmer specific training she uses to make it seem like it’s all completely magical but . . . if she’s been hanging around a seasoned detective then it’s equally likely she learned how to “read” people without realizing it entirely.

. . . added to that, her abilities shown during that party? I swear, it was the most underwhelming introduction to a supposed all-powerful truth radar that people want to attribute to her. The player can tell when people are lying, the characters should be able to tell when they’re lying because the lies the guilty party spouted about started out pretty thin and dissolved into “let’s paint over the crack and hope nobody notices”.

More of interest in the terms of “inexplicably powerful magic” are the expanded potential of Kasmeer’s portals and Marjory’s bridge and enhanced minions.

I wish Anet would stop teasing us with lore bits and finally give us some good chunks. After echoes of the past I got really excited that we finally get new information about Glint, the Brotherhood of the Dwarves and so on yet instead we just follow one lead after another, which ultimately just bring us to another lead.

And I honestly don’t give even a little bit of a **** about Sylvari and their lore! Could you (Anet) please stop shoving them in my face with every single story? Ok to be fair, not all stories involved Sylvari, like the Lost Shores event, Halloween, Winter’s day (even if it had little to no story) and Flame & Frost. And those were imo the best stories. Everything else was tainted by Scarlet or Trahearne (If you have to have so many salad troopers as main characters, atleast make the interesting. Canach is okay, the rest isn’t.). In little doses I’m okay with them but they got more time in the spotlight than any other playable race and now we even have story about Caithe and Faolain? Why? I don’t care! Give me Asura/Norn/Charr/human lore, anything but the greenthumbs.

And keep the story straight. No more inconsistencies. If Riannoc was the first deku with british accent to die, than stick with that story. I know it’s supposed to be a “bug” (though I don’t know why it was even written if it was known to be wrong), however it still made it into the game. By the way, talking about a story not being kept straight, the Personal Story is still all mixed up, can we have an update on how long it will probably take to fix this? I would like to progress with my Charr ranger, but I wont until it makes sense again.

Last but not least: Please do an expansion, the LS is okay for logging in every 2 weeks and play 2-3 hours, though I would much prefer a (atleast) 12 -15 hour story + new maps, weapons, races, classes, skills and so forth.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Dilemma. We’ve already seen in the past mesmer magic which invokes emotions in the targets (assumedly from the names) or capitalizes on mental states . . . primal fears . . . so in theory we already know the magic has to have the ability to read minds as much as affect them.

And there are examples of mesmeric magic being used to read minds in Edge of Destiny – once with a willing target, once against a target that the mesmers had every reason to believe was hostile (which failed, but hey, it was an Elder Dragon…). There’s definitely precedent here.

The bigger problem was really that they introduced it initially as a Kasmeer thing rather than her just saying “I’m a mesmer, how to read people is part of my training”.

draxynnic.3719:

And there are examples of mesmeric magic being used to read minds in Edge of Destiny – once with a willing target, once against a target that the mesmers had every reason to believe was hostile (which failed, but hey, it was an Elder Dragon…). There’s definitely precedent here.

The bigger problem was really that they introduced it initially as a Kasmeer thing rather than her just saying “I’m a mesmer, how to read people is part of my training”.

. . . again, still chalk it up to “reading” rather than straight-up magic.