Guild Wars 2

It made me really dislike Faolain. I was like “Oh cool friendly Centuars, I love Cen-” Then my train of thought is interrupted with her insulting them and calling them animals. _
My Sylvari likes Centuars.

You’re not murdering them though, you’re just seeing a flashback. I wonder what Faolain did though, maybe the Centuars did actually attack first but probably because of an insult. Caithe said before that Faolain used to be kind, I guess we didn’t go far back enough to see that part. :o

Vesuvius.9874:

I think this was a great idea. They promised to show us a dark side and they did. I didn’t realize we had such an over-sheltered and over-pampered player base that can’t stomach a little darkness.

I agree that this is a massively pivotal part of Caithe’s history and showing it to the player will hopefully reveal why she has taken the egg (end even shed more light on who she is as a person).

What I feel completely and utterly let down by is how the story was told. It was flat out awful. The way in which the story was presented was dreadful. There should have been a great deal MORE dialog, especially after the fight/genocide event.

The way your toon grossly understates what happened was appalling and in no way captured the true nature of what really happened. There is no way that after witnessing such an even transpire, first hand, that it would be simply brushed off with a one line explanation.

videoboy.4162:

I think a lot of people are really missing out on something here: Caithe and our Character weren’t supposed to be aware that Faolin started everything. We were supposed to be inside that hut, not able to see what they were doing. However, because of our third person viewpoint (and the fact that most of us have done the PS) we all know what a weed Faolin really is. At that point in time, Caithe didn’t know and trusted Faolin when she claimed that the Centaurs turned on her.

I think you’re absolutely right.. Cause here I am scratching my head wondering what everyone is talking about… I was in the hut talking with that centaur and I am absolutely not aware Faolin did anything to provoke the centaurs. From what I experianced in game it seemed to me like the centaurs attacked Faolin for no reason. Will definitely keep an eye on her on my 2nd play through tonight

But yes your theory is definitely valid. I experienced exactly what you said regardless of the 3rd person camera. All of a sudden I hear Faolin calling for help and see all these centaurs ganging up on us. I too was like what am I doing at first but then I remembered I was Caithe and Caithe is in love with this woman. Doesnt matter that the whole situation feels wrong, at that moment all you know is the person you love is in danger and could die, naturally you’re going to do all that you can to make sure they’re safe. In turn that will hurt so much more when she will find out the betrayal and how she slaughtered so many innocent on a false premise.

Cant wait to replay the episode and see what really happened now

All I really got out of this episode is that as a sylvari player I should be a lot more mean to asura, and that Caithe is a moron. Seeing Faolain before she went to nightmare makes me wonder what sort of grubs must have been eating Caithe’s brain for her to not she her for what she was then, and still not get it now? The blossom may be brother to the weed, but at this point I think I would kill Caithe if given the chance rather than let her love blindness cause her to act in a way that brings greater ills and sorrows to all.

Ohoni.6057:

Faolain, on the other hand, is just a maniacal laugh away from being a saturday morning cartoon villain (similarly to Scarlet). She’s so over the top with her emo attitude that it’s bugging the kitten out of me. And then they made me kill an entire village of centaurs just to protect her. Great.

Well, I kind of get her. She is not human. The Centaurs are not human or Silvari. She is a plant. There is no particular reason why she should care about them at all, we are just projecting our human morality onto her. And she even had an example of the Asura considering the Silvari no better. We view her actions as being very wrong from a human moral perspective, but for a Silvari defining her own moral framework, I could see her as not feeling particularly upset by her own actions, no more than I feel snuffing out millions of lives in a single day as I mow the lawn.

I actually think its more then that. Faolain seemed to be … hmm whats the word.. very supremist. Her dialog through out the episode made that very clear. She feels the Sylvari are superior to the other races and that Ventari’s teaching is holding things back. Ventari who wasnt even Sylvari. She had that anger build up inside her when first the Asura experimented on Malomedies, then when even though they claimed it was a mistake the story repeated itself when the inquest did the same. Finally the last nail in the coffin came when she came face to face with Centaurs, Ventari’s people so to speak. She regarded them little more then Animals yet Wynne who supposedly holds secrets that could be vital to a supremacist like Faolain is now showing her clearly that in a sense she considers what Faolain considers animals, brothers. The anger Faolain must have felt must have been enormous. Makes sense she wanted them all dead and would make perfect sense if she tried to spark the fight and try to hide it.

I recommend that the OP never play Spec Ops: The Line.

I believe that the reaction of PC it’s consequence of been witness of someone other’s memories. Even if from a game point of view the players are actually playing as Caithe (otherwise it will be just watching a cinematic), the Character is more likely looking through Caithe’s eyes and perceiving events like Caithe did.
If Caithe perceived centaurs turning hostile, this is what the PC will learn from Caithe’s memories.

And I don’t feel Caithe was just stupid not to realize Faolain manipulation. She was a newly born creature, with very limited experience of the world. And she probably trusted her Sylvari sister more than every other creature.

Faolain is a sociopath. Caithe enables her burgeoning psychopathy by being a "useful idiot’. Yes, Caithe is vulnerable because of emotion and not thinking clearly about how Faolain is manipulating her and others.

Excerpt:
From Martha Stout’s The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us

Imagine – if you can – not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern of the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken. And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless. You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience that they seldom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world. You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered.
….

You are ambitious, yes, and in the name of success you are willing to do all manner of things that people with conscience would never consider, but you are not an intellectually gifted individual. Your intelligence is above average perhaps, and people think of you as smart, maybe even very smart. But you know in your heart of hearts that you do not have the cognitive wherewithal, or the creativity, to reach the careening heights of power you secretly dreams about, and this makes you resentful of the world at large, and envious of the people around you.

As this sort of person, you ensconce yourself in a niche, or maybe a series of niches, in which you can have some amount of control over small numbers of people. These situations satisfy a little of your desire for power, although you are chronically aggravated at not having more. It chafes to be so free of the ridiculous inner voices that inhibit others from achieving great power, without having enough talent to pursue the ultimate successes yourself. Sometimes you fall into sulky, rageful moods caused by a frustration that no one but you understands.

But you do enjoy jobs that afford you a certain undersupervised control over a few individuals or small groups, preferably people and groups who are relatively helpless or in some way vulnerable. You are a teacher or a psychotherapist, a divorce lawyer or a high school coach. Or maybe you are a consultant of some kind, a broker or a gallery owner or a human services director. Or maybe you do not have a paid position and are instead the president of your condominium association, or a volunteer hospital worker, or a parent. Whatever your job, you manipulate and bully the people who are under your thumb, as often and as outrageously as you can without getting fired or held accountable. You do this for its own sake, even when it serves no purpose except to give you a thrill. Making people jump means you have power – or this is the way you see it – and bullying provides you with an adrenaline rush. It is fun.

I’m looking forward to replaying this with guildies and someone else in the lead so I can actually watch Faolain. As a solo in the story, you have to be in the hut clicking the conversation queues, so you can’t actually see what happened. Faolain is trash talking the centaurs, yes…but she claims one of them attacked her first. Did a tail swish accidentally hit her? Because we all know that would be enough to make her try to take down someone.

I found the Inquest Lab more disturbing…couldn’t work fast enough to stop the torture. The centaurs could have stopped fighting, retreated, etc. The captive sylvari had no options.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ohoni.6057:

Faolain, on the other hand, is just a maniacal laugh away from being a saturday morning cartoon villain (similarly to Scarlet). She’s so over the top with her emo attitude that it’s bugging the kitten out of me. And then they made me kill an entire village of centaurs just to protect her. Great.

Well, I kind of get her. She is not human. The Centaurs are not human or Silvari. She is a plant. There is no particular reason why she should care about them at all, we are just projecting our human morality onto her. And she even had an example of the Asura considering the Silvari no better. We view her actions as being very wrong from a human moral perspective, but for a Silvari defining her own moral framework, I could see her as not feeling particularly upset by her own actions, no more than I feel snuffing out millions of lives in a single day as I mow the lawn.

I actually think its more then that. Faolain seemed to be … hmm whats the word.. very supremist. Her dialog through out the episode made that very clear. She feels the Sylvari are superior to the other races and that Ventari’s teaching is holding things back. Ventari who wasnt even Sylvari. She had that anger build up inside her when first the Asura experimented on Malomedies, then when even though they claimed it was a mistake the story repeated itself when the inquest did the same. Finally the last nail in the coffin came when she came face to face with Centaurs, Ventari’s people so to speak. She regarded them little more then Animals yet Wynne who supposedly holds secrets that could be vital to a supremacist like Faolain is now showing her clearly that in a sense she considers what Faolain considers animals, brothers. The anger Faolain must have felt must have been enormous. Makes sense she wanted them all dead and would make perfect sense if she tried to spark the fight and try to hide it.

One correction, which I believe makes a huge difference. In the open world that is an inquest base, but when we go back into Caithe’s memories it appears that it is actually a Statics college lab or a arcane eye base (Shining blade equivalent for rata sum/kinda like a secret police). which would mean this event wasn’t caused by “the evil faction” of asuras but more like their normal citizens.

Here’s a short clip of what went down:

Faolain is the one in the green.

Canakun.8031:

“we are disappointed at how good the story telling was.”

Except for the complete lack of reaction from Caithe when Faolain acts like the petulant 2-year-old she is.

…
having caught up to the end of the thread, Mike Hawk calls it correctly. I understand these sylvari are barely adolescents, and Caithe would probably forgive Faolain after even the thinnest lie, but she ought to be smart enough to question what the hell was going on while her back was turned when F. is obviously hunting down their sister with no pretense of letting her go home alive. The lack of dialogue at all here makes this look like a rough draft.

Edit: fixed Faolain’s age. got it confused with the number of FIrstborn.

Sariel V.7024:

I understand these sylvari are barely adolescents, and Caithe would probably forgive Faolain after even the thinnest lie, but she ought to be smart enough to question what the hell was going on while her back was turned when F. is obviously hunting down their sister with no pretense of letting her go home alive.

Actually I don’t see Faolain wants to kill her sister.
She wants to know the secret that her sister keeps.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

Being forced into the position of killing an entire village was just… distasteful. Even though it was a ‘memory’ and we were supposedly acting as another person, having to physically participate in that fight left everyone on my team feeling very sick.

Maybe that’s what you were going for, I dunno, but it marred the storytelling for us. It is one thing for a player to make choices that are less than ‘heroic’, it is another for a game to force a player to act like that.

(Tack on that the PC and Jory’s reactions completely missed the maipulation that was happening, and just described it as Caithe being in some ‘dark places’, and it really felt, well, yucky.)

I didn’t feel a thing. So some pixels kill some more pixels. I liked that it showed one of Tyrias “hero’s” is not such a good guy. Also Fallon started it, don’t forget Cathe is in love with her. Depending on how much you love someone, you can go to exstrems to protect them. And let’s not forget they think that she is in the know of a great power that would change how they see the world. It would be like finding out that aliens exsit, some people would accept it, other would react very differently. Not to mention the religious ramifications. I think the secret is the other pale tree. Who may or may not have had the freedom to make they own way in life. I could see how some may see that as a threat to the way of life/how they see the world.

It made me really dislike Faolain. I was like “Oh cool friendly Centuars, I love Cen-” Then my train of thought is interrupted with her insulting them and calling them animals. _
My Sylvari likes Centuars.

You’re not murdering them though, you’re just seeing a flashback. I wonder what Faolain did though, maybe the Centuars did actually attack first but probably because of an insult. Caithe said before that Faolain used to be kind, I guess we didn’t go far back enough to see that part. :o

I suspect that either Faolain attacked first (they seemed too peaceful to go full agro over an insult), OR the scout forces killed one or more centaurs and word got back to camp.

The anger Faolain must have felt must have been enormous. Makes sense she wanted them all dead and would make perfect sense if she tried to spark the fight and try to hide it.

Yeah, definitely a bit of that too.

One correction, which I believe makes a huge difference. In the open world that is an inquest base, but when we go back into Caithe’s memories it appears that it is actually a Statics college lab or a arcane eye base (Shining blade equivalent for rata sum/kinda like a secret police). which would mean this event wasn’t caused by “the evil faction” of asuras but more like their normal citizens.

Keep in mind, within the Asura personal story, the Inquest aren’t viewed as being an “evil faction” by Asura society (although the NPCs you interact with tend to be jerks), they are just a slightly less moral branch of the society. Their actions are generally approved of if it gets results. They are not a criminal organization, they are just more like a shady corporation. So whether it’s Inquest or not makes minute differences so far as the morality of their actions.

Bordak.6519:

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

No, morals are a human invention and are passed on from generation to generation by education from parents, religion, school, politicians etc. So is what is considered “good” and “evil”. If you look at the human history, the things considered “good” and “evil” change all the time, too.
Nature does not know good or evil. Ask a cat if it thinks wether killing for fun is evil or not. Or the old romans.
Good and evil are just inventions to justify certain actions by other humans.

Kuldebar.1897:

Also, Caithe is being stupid. In this game, love appears to make people giant idiots; yes, I am looking at you, Logan.

You mean this game called life.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

I suspect the whole point of the memories is witnessing Caithe watching her beloved descend into evil

She seems pretty evil to begin with… I was honestly hoping to see this descend but since Faolin is pretty much mean spirit and overly aggressive from the get go… And clearly already on Cadeyrn side of the debate. I didn’t get the feeling she was descended into evil so much as she was lifting the veil on her evilness.

Malediktus.9250:

The hypocrisy is big again here. Who cares if you have to slaughter some centaurs. Over your game time you will kill 100k+ creatures, so what does this small village matter.

Ludo-narrative dissonance?

Palador.2170:

Considering that we (the characters we play) are not allowed to forgive Canach for his past deeds, and they were much less than this, I have to agree with you.

That’s more an issue with ANet giving us more dialog options… which I think wouldn’t be too hard as most of it is unvoiced text.

Yunielesca.2850:

Modniirs and Harathis were surely nice centaurs…untill they were deported from their lands by Humans. Considering this, you could consider that their war against Kryta is legitimate and that they are not that bad.

Charr and Centaur alliance! Bring some justice down on those humans and their land grabbing ways!

Canakun.8031:

The battle started when Caithe was talking to the centaur elder, and when she went out Faolain said the centaurs got violent. That’s why Caithe fought them. She didn’t know what happened.

Pretty much this. We don’t know what was going on outside, all we know is that Faolain was being attacked. I think from a narrative perspective Caithe believed that the centaurs struck first since (unlike us players) doesn’t know Faolain is evil and didn’t see what happened.

Arachnaas.2093:

All I really got out of this episode is that as a sylvari player I should be a lot more mean to asura

I never trusted those imps from the start!

Ray.6149:

Actually I don’t see Faolain wants to kill her sister.
She wants to know the secret that her sister keeps.

She clearly has some issues with authority and a extreme desire for independence. Granted she’s under the impression that Wynne has a secret mind control weapon hidden somewhere… so that’s a bad combination.

Malediktus.9250:

Bordak.6519:

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

No, morals are a human invention and are passed on from generation to generation by education from parents, religion, school, politicians etc. So is what is considered “good” and “evil”. If you look at the human history, the things considered “good” and “evil” change all the time, too.
Nature does not know good or evil. Ask a cat if it thinks wether killing for fun is evil or not. Or the old romans.
Good and evil are just inventions to justify certain actions by other humans.

Whether or not the cat finds it fun to kill is of no concern… A cat acts on instincts, we have the ability to use rational thought.

Killing for entertainment is evil no matter how you slice it. There are grey areas, but if your only intent is to harm some one without rhyme or reason, you’re no better than something truly evil. You can’t just throw the term out the window because you want to be philosophical. It does have a meaning and it can correlate to a persons actions.

Malediktus.9250:

No, morals are a human invention and are passed on from generation to generation by education from parents, religion, school, politicians etc. So is what is considered “good” and “evil”. If you look at the human history, the things considered “good” and “evil” change all the time, too.
Nature does not know good or evil. Ask a cat if it thinks wether killing for fun is evil or not. Or the old romans.
Good and evil are just inventions to justify certain actions by other humans.

Well, last I checked, “inventions” are real and do have a tangible impact on our reality.

But, setting that portion of your declaration aside, consider that morality, whatever its origins might actually be, also has a biological or evolutionary imperative in regards to the progression of the species.

Cooperation, intelligence, language, etc. are all aspects of the inventive methods our particular species has come to rely on for survival.

For that reason alone, a dynamic range of moral values becomes part of human progress, always changing with the times. Just because moral codes can change over time does not make them meaningless.; it’s a variant like any other attribute of human history whether it’s biological or cultural, or both.

CureForLiving.5360:

She clearly has some issues with authority and a extreme desire for independence. Granted she’s under the impression that Wynne has a secret mind control weapon hidden somewhere… so that’s a bad combination.

You’re right. Still it’s not that obvious that Faolain wants to kill Wynne. Even less obvious it should have been for Caithe, imo.

Kagamiku.9731:

Malediktus.9250:

Bordak.6519:

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

No, morals are a human invention and are passed on from generation to generation by education from parents, religion, school, politicians etc. So is what is considered “good” and “evil”. If you look at the human history, the things considered “good” and “evil” change all the time, too.
Nature does not know good or evil. Ask a cat if it thinks wether killing for fun is evil or not. Or the old romans.
Good and evil are just inventions to justify certain actions by other humans.

Whether or not the cat finds it fun to kill is of no concern… A cat acts on instincts, we have the ability to use rational thought.

Killing for entertainment is evil no matter how you slice it. There are grey areas, but if your only intent is to harm some one without rhyme or reason, you’re no better than something truly evil. You can’t just throw the term out the window because you want to be philosophical. It does have a meaning and it can correlate to a persons actions.

What if I told you there is no free will even? Free will is an illusion, everything is based on deterministic effects (newton mechanics) and probablistic effects (quantum mechanics). Well even quantum mechanics might be deterministic, there are scientific theories on that, too. So no matter how you put it, everything was either set in stone at the creation of the universe, based on chance or a mix of both.
So if killing someone for no reason is evil, black holes (and similar distructive forces of nature) are too, because both is purely based on the powers of nature. In result humans are just forces of nature (who have exactly 0 choices if they do something or not, just like black holes etc) who just do what they are supposed to do (call it fate if you want).

But, setting that portion of your declaration aside, consider that morality, whatever its origins might actually be, also has a biological or evolutionary imperative in regards to the progression of the species.

Cooperation, intelligence, language, etc. are all aspects of the inventive methods our particular species has come to rely on for survival.

For that reason alone, a dynamic range of moral values becomes part of human progress, always changing with the times. Just because moral codes can change over time does not make them meaningless.; it’s a variant like any other attribute of human history whether it’s biological or cultural, or both.

Yes, but the Silvari race is only two years old during this story, they are only just now forming their own moral codes, and respect for non-Silvari sentient life does not have to be a part of that just because they look a bit like humans.

First I want to say that I AM okay playiing a villain or a person who isn’t good, or even violent. I’m fine with that. My favorite game genre is horror, and you wind up playing a lot of not-nice people or downright monsters in some of those. Also, I play a sylvari, which makes this all more annoying.

Galen Grey.4709:

videoboy.4162:

I think a lot of people are really missing out on something here: Caithe and our Character weren’t supposed to be aware that Faolin started everything. We were supposed to be inside that hut, not able to see what they were doing. However, because of our third person viewpoint (and the fact that most of us have done the PS) we all know what a weed Faolin really is. At that point in time, Caithe didn’t know and trusted Faolin when she claimed that the Centaurs turned on her.

I think you’re absolutely right.. Cause here I am scratching my head wondering what everyone is talking about… I was in the hut talking with that centaur and I am absolutely not aware Faolin did anything to provoke the centaurs. From what I experianced in game it seemed to me like the centaurs attacked Faolin for no reason. Will definitely keep an eye on her on my 2nd play through tonight

But yes your theory is definitely valid. I experienced exactly what you said regardless of the 3rd person camera. All of a sudden I hear Faolin calling for help and see all these centaurs ganging up on us. I too was like what am I doing at first but then I remembered I was Caithe and Caithe is in love with this woman. Doesnt matter that the whole situation feels wrong, at that moment all you know is the person you love is in danger and could die, naturally you’re going to do all that you can to make sure they’re safe. In turn that will hurt so much more when she will find out the betrayal and how she slaughtered so many innocent on a false premise.

Cant wait to replay the episode and see what really happened now

Having been in a 10+ year relationship that was much more decent and loving than the one Caithe is in by miles and miles, if my partner started putting up red flags like Faolain was before that fight, I would have pulled her aside afterward and asked her what in the hell she was playing at. Or before things ever erupted. She made it incredibly obvious beforehand that she was going to pull something nasty, and the audio itself standing inside the hut also made it clear that the centaurs didn’t just up and decide “screw being hospitable” and attack out of the blue. Wynne was screaming. As you might defend your loved one, you also defend your friends, and Faolain made it clear before you ever go in that she was not leaving that place without Wynne.. no matter what. Knowing Faolain so intimately, Caithe should have been more aware of that than even the player who can pick up on it.

And you might defend your loved one in a fight, but love doesn’t make you hold an idiot ball and turn a blind eye to your partner doing something magnificently horrible. Even if Caithe has some kinda stockholm-esque thing going on and is somehow utterly blind to the incredibly, insanely obvious thing that was going to take place there, the smart thing to do would be to use your awesome stealth powers to grab your partner and stealth the heck out of there before murdering a bunch of people, because holy crap, that’s something you can actually do. Maybe even stealth your way over and nab Wynne, too, if you’re still determined to do that. She won’t even see you coming! Standing and fighting is a lot more risky to your loved one than using your previously established (in this very chapter) super stealth teleportation powers. It’s like she up and forgot that she was a super-thief for the sake of convenience to what needed to happen in the story.

But more annoying than that is the stupid, stupid crap that came tumbling out of my character’s mouth when it was all over. No, I would not just take what Caithe saw (which was nothing) at face value, because Caithe even making that assumption herself was questionable but can be possibly, maybe glossed over with enough handwaving. But for my character, who knows both Caithe and Faolain? Haha, oh man, no way. It was so stunningly out of character for a sylvari who knows both characters and who could evaluate the situation themselves that it just boggled my mind and shattered what little bit of suspension of disbelief I had left.

As for people wondering what happened, I had another guy with me playing. Whenever he comes online I’ll ask him since he was standing right out in the middle, unless someone shows up beforehand and talks about it. But you could very clearly hear Wynne screaming and trying to get away from Faolain. The player with me also said “Faolain is…” in our call, as things erupted, and I couldn’t hear him after that over the game sounds. I’ll have to ask what he was going to say, because now I’m really curious, haha.

Vesuvius.9874:

I think this was a great idea. They promised to show us a dark side and they did. I didn’t realize we had such an over-sheltered and over-pampered player base that can’t stomach a little darkness.

Some of us “swallowed” it well enough. We just found it lacking in flavor on the way down and gave us indigestion later.

Faolin didn’t even start off as something salvageable or lovable, so her interaction with Caithe just seemed forced. Or maybe Faolin is only interested in “owning” people. She “owns” Caithe, she wanted Wynne. But her actual characterization wasn’t subtle.

And Caithe is constantly limp-wristed, both in Personal Story and now in Living Story. I feel like Destiny’s Edge said to themselves “we need a plant and a rogue on the party, so let’s take the first of those Sylvari things that comes along with two knives,” as Caithe herself bears little in the way of heroic quality.

Then, being forced to play as Caithe with the centaur slaughter, we came to realize that she wasn’t “dark,” she was weak.
Weak = Meh.
Unless this rebounds into something spectacular for Caithe as a character, it’s not all that worth it.

ANet should stop forcing players to be the ‘good guy’ all the time. To complete our person story, we have to save millions of lives and kill an evil dragon. Being forced into the position of killing an entire Risen population is just…distasteful.

Being forced into the position of killing so many innocent players in PvP/WvW is just…distasteful.

Being forced to kill anything at all in a video game is just…distasteful.

Jokes aside, can you guys really not come up with anything better to complain about? The story was a brilliant way of showing Caithe’s past as well as giving us some much appreciated insight to lore.

I think the deeper question is why is Caithe attracted to Faolain? Nothing that came out of Faolain’s mouth that entire episode was redeeming in any way, shape, or form. It was all either lies, harm, wrong, violent, or speculation on a conversation that was none of her business. Caithe has awful taste in romance and treats her “friends” even worse.

It reminded me of how bad the Padme/Anakin romance was in the prequels. What did Padme see in Anakin? None of his actions or words had anything attractive in them. There is a reason people find the prequels deplorable: Jar jar and the relationship between Padme and Anakin lacked anything of worth.

Playing the villain isn’t such a bad thing. In LOTRO they had a similar instance where you played an evil minion who was cleaning up a jail and the last thing you see is are the good guys storming in. You already know the next part as your player character was the one storming inside! It worked.

The problem here is that the characterization and writing was poor, as usual sadly. Caithe was the central character but we learn nothing about her personality at all. Faolain acts like a thuggish brute so we’re not shown why Caithe would ever like Faolain or listen to anything she said. We do see the same old problems with everyone behaving stupidly and the ‘characters’ showing no character but just following a plot.

Iason Evan.3806:

I think the deeper question is why is Caithe attracted to Faolain? Nothing that came out of Faolain’s mouth that entire episode was redeeming in any way, shape, or form. It was all either lies, harm, wrong, violent, or speculation on a conversation that was none of her business.

This is bothering the hell out of me, too. I guess maybe when they were both even younger, Faolain might have been less horrible, but I doubt to any extreme degree. This seems to be her nature, and nothing about it is appealing. I really can’t figure that relationship out, now.

It would make more sense if it were written in a way that shows Faolain capable of actual manipulation, because that’s often how decent people wind up with total jerkbags in real life, but she isn’t written that way. She has two modes of personality: “skeevy jerk” and “ragingly murderous.” Caithe is treated more like an accessory than an actual romantic partner. And this was a long time before the PS, which treats the relationship breaking down as a somewhat recent thing. I have no flippin’ idea.

Iason Evan.3806:

speculation on a conversation that was none of her business.

I would argue that that conversation was absolutely get business. What she heard, while out of context, is extremely worrying. What was wrong was the speculation, and the attempt to coerce Wynne after she chose not to disclose the rest of the conversation.

At that point, Caithe and Faolain should have sought an interview with the Pale Tree, and asked for clarification. I suspect the topic is actually how the Pale Tree is protecting the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s influence.

Malediktus.9250:

What if I told you there is no free will even? Free will is an illusion, everything is based on deterministic effects (newton mechanics) and probablistic effects (quantum mechanics). Well even quantum mechanics might be deterministic, there are scientific theories on that, too. So no matter how you put it, everything was either set in stone at the creation of the universe, based on chance or a mix of both.

Not true. As the universe ages, the number of ways it can be arranged increases (entropy). This requires the creation of information. Most of this new information is random, yes; but not all of it, especially the part in humanity’s light cone.

It is in that sliver of new information every Planck moment that free will can exist.

Egon Vidar.9125:

As for people wondering what happened, I had another guy with me playing. Whenever he comes online I’ll ask him since he was standing right out in the middle, unless someone shows up beforehand and talks about it. But you could very clearly hear Wynne screaming and trying to get away from Faolain. The player with me also said “Faolain is…” in our call, as things erupted, and I couldn’t hear him after that over the game sounds. I’ll have to ask what he was going to say, because now I’m really curious, haha.

I messaged my friend on Skype and asked him what happened.

[6:32:06 PM] Jheuloh: I’m fuzzy on the specific details, but while Caithe was talking to the centaur shaman, Faolin was forcing a confrontation with Wynne with her centaur companions around her. When the conflict concluded with Wynne screaming like a banshee and disappearing into the distance the centaurs pretty much planted their foot down and no baloney mode was activated. Faolin brought on the actual fight.
[6:35:47 PM] Egon Vidar: Thank you.
[6:36:19 PM] Jheuloh: I think as you clicked dialogue progression buttons it also progressed the Faolin/Wynne confrontation

It’s the dumbness that gets me, not the evil.

Windsagio.1340:

It’s the dumbness that gets me, not the evil.

I’ll admit to that, actually. I could understand doing something questionable in the face of conflict. It’s more the conflict was so poorly written and the characters just sliding along in their roles like game pieces instead of people.

Sure enough, the plot demands it . . . so the character must be as dumb as a stack of sticks. If that wasn’t bad enough, we’re forced to go along with it.

I believe that’s the OP’s main issue.

At least, it was for me.

CureForLiving.5360:

Canakun.8031:

The battle started when Caithe was talking to the centaur elder, and when she went out Faolain said the centaurs got violent. That’s why Caithe fought them. She didn’t know what happened.

Pretty much this. We don’t know what was going on outside, all we know is that Faolain was being attacked. I think from a narrative perspective Caithe believed that the centaurs struck first since (unlike us players) doesn’t know Faolain is evil and didn’t see what happened.

The problem is not in Caithe’s behaviour. We already knew she was ridiculously naive and not very bright from the personal story and dungeons. The problem lies in the behaviour of the player character and Marjory – they really should have known better. And a player character has the depth of experience Caithe was lacking, while at the same time not being burdened by unconditional trust she was putting in Faolain (quite the opposite, in fact – we already know she is evil and manipulative, having met her before in Twilight Arbor, so we should have been naturally suspicious in reactions outside plant seed memory).

Blackmoon.6837:

It’s threads like these that remind me oh why the GW2 storyline is so child-like.

Grow some backbone. It wasn’t your character, so you have no reason to act all trollish.

The real problem is how Caithe will hardly suffer any real consequence for her actions, or how the this attempt at such a mature event won’t have any weight beyond the initial event.

LOL, this is not “mature vs. child-like.” This is tricking/forcing the player into doing something that he/she most likely had zero interest in doing. It is a nasty gap between “story” and “gameplay” where they forgot that you have to prioritize one over the other.

If the goal is to show us a nasty scene, show us a nasty scene. If the goal is to involve us in the scene, let us feel like we have some agency (why else are we playing a video game?).

I’m sorry, but this is really basic stuff and I feel like they are tripping over their feet trying to find the right balance between story and gameplay. This whole chapter is a perfect example of trying too hard to please everyone.

They need to choose one priority – story or gameplay – and then commit to it. This obsession with forcing us into mini skirmishes every other story moment just so that they can slap the word “game” on their stories has been around from the beginning and it has finally hit a place where it just doesn’t work, period.

Playing the memory was not my problem. My problem was that Caithe has been allowed to walk free for twenty years after that. Feed her to the centares.

Yargesh.4965:

Playing the memory was not my problem. My problem was that Caithe has been allowed to walk free for twenty years after that. Feed her to the centares.

As a master chef, my asura could recommend several good dressings!

Rauderi.8706:

Yargesh.4965:

Playing the memory was not my problem. My problem was that Caithe has been allowed to walk free for twenty years after that. Feed her to the centares.

As a master chef, my asura could recommend several good dressings!

Was thinking Assura as croutons actually.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

Galen Grey.4709:

Ohoni.6057:

Faolain, on the other hand, is just a maniacal laugh away from being a saturday morning cartoon villain (similarly to Scarlet). She’s so over the top with her emo attitude that it’s bugging the kitten out of me. And then they made me kill an entire village of centaurs just to protect her. Great.

Well, I kind of get her. She is not human. The Centaurs are not human or Silvari. She is a plant. There is no particular reason why she should care about them at all, we are just projecting our human morality onto her. And she even had an example of the Asura considering the Silvari no better. We view her actions as being very wrong from a human moral perspective, but for a Silvari defining her own moral framework, I could see her as not feeling particularly upset by her own actions, no more than I feel snuffing out millions of lives in a single day as I mow the lawn.

I actually think its more then that. Faolain seemed to be … hmm whats the word.. very supremist. Her dialog through out the episode made that very clear. She feels the Sylvari are superior to the other races and that Ventari’s teaching is holding things back. Ventari who wasnt even Sylvari. She had that anger build up inside her when first the Asura experimented on Malomedies, then when even though they claimed it was a mistake the story repeated itself when the inquest did the same. Finally the last nail in the coffin came when she came face to face with Centaurs, Ventari’s people so to speak. She regarded them little more then Animals yet Wynne who supposedly holds secrets that could be vital to a supremacist like Faolain is now showing her clearly that in a sense she considers what Faolain considers animals, brothers. The anger Faolain must have felt must have been enormous. Makes sense she wanted them all dead and would make perfect sense if she tried to spark the fight and try to hide it.

One correction, which I believe makes a huge difference. In the open world that is an inquest base, but when we go back into Caithe’s memories it appears that it is actually a Statics college lab or a arcane eye base (Shining blade equivalent for rata sum/kinda like a secret police). which would mean this event wasn’t caused by “the evil faction” of asuras but more like their normal citizens.

Hmm thats really explains why Vorpp was there was a bit puzzled by that. But then it begs a different question. Why on earth did they do it a 2nd time after releasing Malomedies and appologized for it. Guess it could be secret police being secret police like but I dont know something doesnt feel right.

Egon Vidar.9125:

.. if my partner started putting up red flags like Faolain was before that fight, snip…

Did Faolain really do anything that outragious though? She disagreed with everyone saying nice, rosy things sure but that alone doesnt really light up red flags. This is not the Faolain we know, dont forget that at that point in time she never did anything bad she just disagreed about being too nice not because its nice to be evil but for what she thinks is the common good. I mean I am sure this is something that actually happens in real life. There are plenty of controversial subjects that some may consider evil while others consider perfectly okay. Things like say the death penalty. If one person is against the death penalty but their partner feels strongly that it should be there as its the only deterrent that truly works or even just cause who ever kills deserves it etc.. should their partner automatically assumes that if strangers suddenly try to kill him/her then it must mean they’re the one who instigated the whole thing?

Faolain was angry but lets not forget at that point in time she was reasonably so. Her race was under threat, they had been attacked and were being attacked and she felt her races governing philosophy (ventari’s tablets) were a threat to their self defense and she was fighting seemingly peacefully to remove that weakness. Even without going into the realm of love is blind I dont feel like Caithe’s not assuming this woman was a psychopath was really out of character.

Egon Vidar.9125:

.. Faolain made it clear before you ever go in that she was not leaving that place without Wynne.. no matter what. snip..

These were Wynne friends, naturally Wynne was traumatized by the whole thing none of that tells Caithe that Faolain did anything wrong.

Egon Vidar.9125:

the smart thing to do would be to use your awesome stealth powers to grab your partner and stealth the heck out of there before murdering a bunch of people, because holy crap, that’s something you can actually do.

Its the heat of the moment, your loved one called for help you dont have time to think of alternatives really. besides what about the friends who came with Faolain? do you leave them to die? fend for themselves? how about Wynne? at that point Caithe had no idea what the centaurs reaction would be towards Wynne. Also what if Faolain didnt want to run anymore, trying to drag her away against her will might be the sort of indecisiveness that might get one killed in a fight like that. Also from Caithe’s eyes was that really necessary? I mean she met centaurs for the very first time she doesnt know them enough to judge if attacking out of the blue is out of character for them. The only outside race her kind has met was the asura and that didnt end up well. I am sure she met nice asura here and there too that didnt mean she had to shy away from confrontation when she went to free the younglings.

Egon Vidar.9125:

Maybe even stealth your way over and nab Wynne, too,snip..

her super thief powers are super but not super enough to do everything. Even in the chapter you mention they werent enough to just go and get the prisoners out without any fight at all. Or maybe they were it just i wasnt good enough for it

Egon Vidar.9125:

But for my character, who knows both Caithe and Faolain? Haha, oh man, no way.snip..

I actually think here a lot of people are misunderstanding this episode. Lets keep things in context. We’re not there to judge Faolain, we’re not reliving the memory to see what happened in the past. We’re trying to follow the events in Caithe’s past to try to determine were they led. Simply speaking Caithe’s the focus. Your character and Marjory know Faolain is evil but what does any of that matter? Caithe’s next action soley depended on the events she experienced and what she experience is those centaurs turning on them. The conversation is simply being said in that context. Caithe’s memory is that Wynne’s Centaur friends turned on them. There is no reason to go on a tangent and speculate that the whole thing most likely happened because of something Faolain did. Its besides the point in the “current” circumstance.

Egon Vidar.9125:

As for people wondering what happened, I had another guy with me playing. Whenever he comes online I’ll ask him since he was standing right out in the middle, unless someone shows up beforehand and talks about it. snip..

I was really planning of finding out on an Alt yesterday, but I only got to the Asura part then some guildies needed 1 more for a dungeon run and I went to help and next thing I know its like 11pm … Oh well tonight I will find out

Astralporing.1957:

CureForLiving.5360:

Canakun.8031:

The battle started when Caithe was talking to the centaur elder, and when she went out Faolain said the centaurs got violent. That’s why Caithe fought them. She didn’t know what happened.

Pretty much this. We don’t know what was going on outside, all we know is that Faolain was being attacked. I think from a narrative perspective Caithe believed that the centaurs struck first since (unlike us players) doesn’t know Faolain is evil and didn’t see what happened.

The problem is not in Caithe’s behaviour. We already knew she was ridiculously naive and not very bright from the personal story and dungeons. The problem lies in the behaviour of the player character and Marjory – they really should have known better. And a player character has the depth of experience Caithe was lacking, while at the same time not being burdened by unconditional trust she was putting in Faolain (quite the opposite, in fact – we already know she is evil and manipulative, having met her before in Twilight Arbor, so we should have been naturally suspicious in reactions outside plant seed memory).

but we’re not judging her or the event itself. We’re not there to write history or to see who was a bad plant. We’re trying to analyse what happened in Caithe’s past at that point in time to determine where she has gone in the hope that she is retracing that same past.

Our character didnt say the Centaurs are guilty they started it. S/He just said (and remember thats from Caithe’s point of view) the Centaurs turned on them which is what happens and also is what determined Caithe’s next course of action.

We could have told marjory. Hmm Faolain was there, she probably started it ! but what would be the use? It would be nothing else then a case of bad mounting someone you dont like.

Lets not forget we also saw scarlet but didnt tell marjory about her either.

I hope they do this again.
We’ve been playing our “good guy” characters for 2 years, stepping on the bad guy’s shoes is a nice change.
Besides we’re not the bad guy ourselves, we’re reliving the bad guy’s past.

Raziel.4216:

I hope they do this again.
We’ve been playing our “good guy” characters for 2 years, stepping on the bad guy’s shoes is a nice change.
Besides we’re not the bad guy ourselves, we’re reliving the bad guy’s past.

Exactly. It certainly was a disturbing scene, yet the fact that it wasn’t actually my character was enough to pull back and think rationally about the situation. I actually enjoyed the setup enough that now I have some more personal feelings about Caithe, Faolain etc.

Galen Grey.4709:

Egon Vidar.9125:

.. if my partner started putting up red flags like Faolain was before that fight, snip…

Did Faolain really do anything that outragious though?

Her obsession with Wynne was a pretty big red flag, in multiple ways.

Basically Faolain is Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars episodes 2 and 3.

A character that the writers were probably supposed to write as lovable but with issues. They decided to remove the lovable part but forgot to remove the references to it in everyone else’s dialogue.

I don’t know, I mean, Caithe was in a tent, and could only hear Faolaon’s screams, not actually see the conflict, who started it, and why; all she had to go off of (when she stepped out) was the view of Centuers fighting Faolaon and her followers to the death, and as they were actively in combat, no time to ask questions.

Ask yourself, if you heard screams from your lover -who you believe to good of virtue and intent- and rushed out from the tent to see her fighting for her life (for whoever started it, it IS clear that her life is now at risk) what would you do, who would you help, would you try to ask questions in the middle of a battle, try to pacify the combatants as they kill each other left and right, step back and watch, help the enemy put your lover down? No, you would step in and fight at her side.

So I think Caithe’s actions, from her perspective, are reasonable.

Also, I would like to note, this is not the first time we’ve played as bad guys, FoTM Urban Battleground anyone?

OtakuModeEngage.8679:

I don’t know, I mean, Caithe was in a tent, and could only hear Faolaon’s screams, not actually see the conflict, who started it, and why; all she had to go off of (when she stepped out) was the view of Centuers fighting Faolaon and her followers to the death, and as they were actively in combat, no time to ask questions.

Ask yourself, if you heard screams from your lover -who you believe to good of virtue and intent- and rushed out from the tent to see her fighting for her life (for whoever started it, it IS clear that her life is now at risk) what would you do, who would you help, would you try to ask questions in the middle of a battle, try to pacify the combatants as they kill each other left and right, step back and watch, help the enemy put your lover down? No, you would step in and fight at her side.

So I think Caithe’s actions, from her perspective, are reasonable.

The problem is, you have to ignore every single thing that’s happened up to that point in that specific memory for it to be reasonable.

When you start you see Faolain has brought in a military force ‘for protection’. Soon after, you meet the centaurs and they’re very respectful and friendly. Then Faolain starts saying hateful things, then they’re less repsectful, then they argue some, then Faolain pretty much directly threatens Wynne with abduction by force, then Caithe goes into the tent. There’s no point in the entire time Faolain isn’t being extremely hostile and going through extremely provocative acts.

From Caithe’s perspective it might be possible, Caithe is like, super kittening stupid. But your Character should have a better idea.

Even better she could go into the fight, and then afterwards turn to Faolain and say “I love you, and I’ll fight to the death for you, but what the kitten is wrong with you that you just did all that?”

Windsagio.1340:

The problem is, you have to ignore every single thing that’s happened up to that point in that specific memory for it to be reasonable.

When you start you see Faolain has brought in a military force ‘for protection’. Soon after, you meet the centaurs and they’re very respectful and friendly. Then Faolain starts saying hateful things, then they’re less repsectful, then they argue some, then Faolain pretty much directly threatens Wynne with abduction by force, then Caithe goes into the tent. There’s no point in the entire time Faolain isn’t being extremely hostile and going through extremely provocative acts.

From Caithe’s perspective it might be possible, Caithe is like, super kittening stupid. But your Character should have a better idea.

Even better she could go into the fight, and then afterwards turn to Faolain and say “I love you, and I’ll fight to the death for you, but what the kitten is wrong with you that you just did all that?”

Once again, Caithe does not know who started the fight; yes, Faolain was being rude, she did disagree with the Centuer’s intentions to hold Wayne there, and did bring a guard -which could be perceived as a threat- but that doesn’t mean she struck out first; for all Caithe knows, she COULD have been defending herself. You agree that Faolain’s show of force, manor, intentions, and words(her all together open hostility), could be perceived as a threat, so perhaps they took it as one, and acted upon it, dousing her flame before it had a chance to rampage.

Historically, most expeditions into new territory all involve body guards or soldiers to some degree, and even diplomats often travel with guards, so to claim Faolain intended to slaughter the Centuers simply because she brought a militant force -which she claimed to be for their own protection- is making a bit of leap, a leap our character may make because he know’s Faolain’s future, having encountered and repelled her in it, but a leap Caithe, likely would not, because she trust and loves Faolain, believing her to be a good person. Furthermore, we must remember Faolain IS not yet evil at this point; for however much she is becoming so, for however dark and horrible her actions are, currently she is acting upon what she believes to be good intentions.

To that point, can our characters be absolutely sure Faolain launched the attack? We were, after all, looking from Caithe’s eyes, and thus only saw what she did. I would like to judge mine as more open minded than to brand an enemy as having been a criminal from birth. Actually, as a player, I didn’t even see who started the attack, as I was focused on Caithe, the centuer (chief?), and their conversation, and so I too, cannot know for certain who started it. Though, don’t get me wrong, I do believe it was Faolain.

But from another point, we must realize, if our character was reliving Caithe’s memories, through her eyes, in her body, did we not think and feel as she did, witnessing every thought coursing through even the darkest corners of her mind, the very moment it did so? Is there not a chance that even now we are effected by her lingering emotions? Our characters would now know that there WAS goodness in Faolain, and remember feeling love for her, even if from another’s mind.

With that being said, while whether or not our characters felt Faolain started the fight may still be up for debate, I am CERTAIN Caithe didn’t. -And, even if she did, even if she knew her lover was falling into darkness, would she have stepped back and let her die, without even trying to reclaim her goodness, or more still, would she stand with the Centuers and put her down? Would you? I don’t think I would.

I’m ok with being the bad guy. But please Anet… I graduated from highschool once. Don’t make me go back. Please. At least give our “heroes” of Tyria half a brain?