Guild Wars 2

There’s a lot that bothers me about Queen Jennah. I just did the first part of Head of the Snake, and it seemed normal enough until she suspended the powers of her own ministry under the guise of protection and demonstrated she was powerful enough to erect a dome barrier capable of fending off siege fire. In addition to that, she was able to make people die simply by pointing at them and erect additional powerful barriers while still maintaining the previously mentioned dome.

It was previously established that she is an exceptionally powerful mesmer, so much so that she is capable of maintaining a psychic link with Logan over massive distances. In the Ogre Revolt, it’s stated she was powerful enough to subdue an entire crowd of humans and charr all at once, and even managed to create an illusion so convincing that she was able to trick the Branded themselves into believing all the combatants had been converted into Branded too. It mentions that she also maintains an exceptionally high amount of approval among her own subjects.

The point I am trying to make is that these events seem to paint a disturbing picture of the queen. Not only is she capable of suspending the authority of her own government when she feels that it is necessary, but being able to manipulate the thoughts and perceptions of large crowds of people are not beyond her either. It would explain the diehard loyalty she has among the peasantry, but one of the treacherous ministers was capable of using mesmer magic too. The queen does not strike me as a particularly charismatic personality, and her rulership seems to be rife with in-fighting among the ministers, bandits which conduct their operations with impunity and hordes of centaurs which are constantly attacking human settlements across Kryta.

Am I the only one who feels that all of these doesn’t seem to add up to the idea of her being a benevolent and fair ruler? She is the be-all and end-all authority in Krytan politics and has the power to keep her population compliant through means which would not be easily detected or noticed.

There is a popular theory going around that Jennah is the human goddess Lyssa. If this is true, and if the theory that not just Balthazar but all the gods have been weakened is also true, then her unusually negative portrayal in Head of the Snake might have been an attempt by the writers to set her up as a possible adversary figure in the expansion.

Here we go again…

Jennah suspended the Ministry because she knew it was so riddled with White Mantle that the Ministry as a whole was effectively working for the enemy – not every minister was White Mantle, in fact I don’t think they were even a majority, but there were enough that they could direct Ministry policy where they liked, and they’ve been using this to sabotage Kryta from within. Jennah knew this, it’s been obvious since release and she knew Caudecus was her enemy way back in Edge of Destiny, but simply dismissing Parliament – sorry, the Ministry – is a big step that she needed pretty good evidence to do without risking provoking a civil war.

Leaving it until several months after it was shown that the equivalent of the Prime Minister was a traitor and the war was on their doorstep was actually showing a lot of restraint.

I think you’re overestimating how much mesmer magic can actually influence the thoughts of groups. The infighting you’re referring to is all directly linked to Caudecus trying to pull a Palpatine, sabotaging Kryta from within in an attempt to get Jennah declared incompetent and removed from power… or failing that, keeping Kryta as weak as possible for when he resorts to an attempt at direct conquest.

There are about a million conspiracy theories around Jennah, but everything we’ve been shown indicates that she’s actually a pretty decent ruler hamstrung by a political system that had no safeguards in place for a Legate Minister who was willing to destroy the country if it meant he had a chance of ruling over the ruins.

Seriously, the end of the episode didn’t leave much room for shades of grey – Caudecus is pretty much responsible for virtually everything bad that’s happened to Kryta in the last ten years or so that wasn’t directly dragon-related. You can read it for yourself.

On the one hand, it’s always suspicious when heads of state suspend any aspect of democracy or due process, regardless of the issues. Checks & balances are in place to protect citizens from the government making mistakes or acting in the self-interest of the political class.

On the other, what should the head of state due when other elements of the government are already acting in the interest of the enemies of the state & its citizens (and that can be proven)? When a police officer is a criminal, there’s police review boards (which might or not be as effective in RL as one hopes), but when it’s the chief of police, we expect the city government to act.

So Jennah had few legit options available to her: let many of the ministers work against the Krytan government and allow Divinity’s Reach to fall to the Mantle or suspend the legislature until she can secure the city.

The true test of whether she’s a benevolent or malicious autocrat is what she does when the emergency ends… or if it doesn’t seem to have any end. She’s not a tyrant until/unless she allows herself (or nominates herself) to permanently become the only authority in Kryta.

What’s not clear to me is if she followed through on the suspension. She said she was suspending the Ministry, which triggered an immediate insurrection. This was evidently her plan to get the traitors to tip their hand, and it worked.

But did she leave it suspended? Did she actually suspend it at all or simply use the announcement as a trigger without meaning it in actuality? All we get in postscript so far is “The White Mantle launched a surprise attack on Divinity’s Reach. Betrayed from within and assaulted from without, the city fought a battle on two fronts. Queen Jennah rose to the occasion, revealing just how powerful a mesmer she is, and with a monumental effort on the part of the humans and their allies, the city broke the siege.” From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-May-2-2017/first#content

So it could have been a bluff. The loyal Ministers may be trucking right along even now, no state of emergency having truly been declared. If any of you have Reddit posting skills/abilities (I do not), it might be worth asking there since we seldom get lore answers in these forums.

I recommend people read:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ministry

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah

Key segments of note:

Her Royal Majesty Jennah, Queen of Kryta and Regent of Ascalon is a descendant of King Doric and the last known member of the Salmaic dynasty, the ruling family of Kryta. Her coronation was in 1316 AE, after the death of her father. Her egalitarian rule makes her a very popular monarch in the eyes of her people, but this also causes much friction with the nobility.

and

When Jennah’s father died, the Ministry ruled Divinity’s Reach in her stead, as she was too young to ascend the throne immediately. Because of this, some Ministers have become accustomed to ruling Kryta and are reluctant to relinquish their former control, causing friction between the Ministry and the crown. Other sources of friction include the truce between the humans and charr, which some ministers consider to be an affront to the sacrifices made by the Ebon Vanguard, and the bandit and centaur attacks that continue to wear Kryta down. There are even quiet whispers that perhaps Jennah may not be fit to rule. More recently, the ministry have been the subject of several disturbing scandals, such as the revelation that Minister Julius Zamon was in fact in charge of one of the bandit factions harassing the city, the fact that the Ministry Guard lead by Commander Serentine was involved in a plot to discredit the Seraph by helping bandits, mainly Big Nose Ted, burn down both the Queen’s Heart Orphanage and the Vanguard Hospital, or Marjory Delaqua’s claim that a minister was spotted practising dark, occultic magic on a kidnapped woman. Despite these, the ministry remains popular among the citizenry of Kryta, largely due to the efforts of their Legate Minister.

Kryta is NOT a democracy. It’s a monarchy based on nobility and ruling family with a democratic element to appease the masses. This is not Great Britain where the monarchy has only symbolic value. Queen Jenna IS the main kitten and if she suspects the Ministry to be out of order (which has been the case all over the place lately) rest assured she will crush any opposition to her rule and has every right to do so.

Considering those aspects, I personally find Jenna to have been very lax and lenient in her approach and judgement. Her first priority is to keep her people safe and root out corruption and dissent which might endanger her subjects. The Ministry, or part of it, has been in direct violation to these goals and thus has forced Queen Jennas hand.

The attack which Jenna had prepared for is only the culmination of a powerstruggle which luckily Jenna has decided for herself.

Illconceived Was Na and Donari make good points – the litmus test of Jennah’s intentions would be what happens after the emergency is concluded.

Keep in mind a couple of other things:

First, as far as we know, Kryta has had no equivalent of the Magna Carta or the events that lead to its implementation – the Ministry exists purely because some past monarch thought it was a suitable means to help run the country and provide settlements outside of Divinity’s Reach with some representation at court. Legally speaking, it probably exists purely at the pleasure of the reigning monarch, and said reigning monarch has the right to dismiss it at any time and for any reason. Now, there are likely complications with doing so, and doing so without good reason could result in rebellion even if it is technically legal, which probably explains why Jennah waited until the last minute to dismiss it. However, it was probably never intended to be a check on the monarch’s power, as the British Parliament originally was, so much as a tool for more effective government.

Second, don’t go thinking of this as a conflict between democracy and authoritarianism. The Ministry is, at best, a 7 on the Democracy Index, and probably quite a bit lower. Off the top of my head I don’t think there are any Ministers who are not nobles, suggesting that either it is not legally permitted for a non-noble to run, or the elections are sufficiently unfree and unfair that the odds are stacked against a commoner winning – heck, we don’t even know if non-nobles have the opportunity to vote for their Minister at all. (Come to think on it, we don’t even know if there actually are elections even among the nobles – there’s a lot we don’t know about the Ministry.) We’ve also been specifically told that Caudecus’ support of the carnival is part of a bread-and-circuses routine, and that a lot of Ministers simply don’t care about the wellbeing of common citizens. Add on top of that that Kryta has separate judicial systems for foreigners, commoners and nobles, and the Ministry controls the process for anyone who isn’t a foreigner – these are NOT indications of a full, healthy democracy. In a very real sense, it’s the crown that protects the people from the Ministry more than the other way around.

We do have this to go off of- specifically “If all ministers came from the upper class, we’d only be serving a fraction of our populace. Those elected are usually key figures in their communities, and that often has little to do with gold.” On the other hand, we know from first hand observation that most of the ministers we interact with are clearly rich and well-connected, to the point that this describes the Ministry Guard as “protectors of the nobility of Kryta, most of whom are heavily involved in the ministry.”

Reading between the lines a bit, I’d say it’s clear that many more nobles than commoners make it into the Ministry, although the commoners apparently still have a chance. That doesn’t automatically make the system unfair, however. The elections might be stacked, but it’s also possible that the local nobles do traditionally fulfill leadership roles in their communities, and that a sufficient number of them take it seriously that they’re the natural choice to represent their communities.

Regardless, I agree with Cyninja and drax. Kryta wasn’t set up to be a democracy, and no one in the Krytan government is trying to be a democracy; of course it doesn’t make a very good one. And while it’s often lost on people today, it’s entirely possible for an authoritarian government to be benevolent. The reason they fell out of favor is because of what happens when they aren’t benevolent, but that doesn’t mean every autocrat is automatically a marauding tyrant. There are still some questions marks surrounding the extent of Jennah’s mesmer abilities, sure, and I wouldn’t mind ANet clarifying those, but she hasn’t displayed any behavior that rubs me the wrong way.

Valid points, Aaron – I’d forgotten about Rachel. And yes, it’s likely that nobles are likely to be respected to begin with and thus there might not necessarily be anything sinister about them being predominant in the Ministry.

Then again, it might be. One of the reasons we have anonymous voting nowadays was that before it was introduced in Britain, it was common for people to be compelled to vote in a particular way. Better vote for the preferred candidate of your employer or landlord, or you might find yourself fired and/or evicted… and even if they can’t be quite that overt, they can still favour those who voted for them. Similar rackets might well be going on in Krytan Ministry elections.

Certainly, neither side seems particularly interested in democracy. If anything, Jennah might be the one that’s more interested in genuine democracy.

But yes, ‘autocrat’ does not mean ‘bad’. It’s commonly said that the best form of government would be a benevolent dictatorship – someone who genuinely cares about the people and who can do what needs to be done. Democracy, and the various checks and balances that support it, basically exists because ensuring that you get a benevolent dictator is hard, and if you get the wrong person you want a means of limiting the damage and eventually replacing them that doesn’t require a revolt.

As for the “Jennah is a powerful mesmer, so maybe she’s mass mind-controlling people!” argument…

Well, maybe. We’ve been told that the Mesmer Collective deliberately hides and suppresses aspects of their art, specifically to avoid such accusations. But we have no evidence to suggest that’s even possible, let alone that she’s doing it. In fact, we have good reason to believe that she isn’t - since if she did have the power to force someone to love her against her will with little or no risk of her enchantment being discovered, don’t you think her first target would have been Caudecus?

I honestly think it was intended to play out as a royal/political intrigue plot that has been brewing since the beginning, and while we’ve heard about Jennah’s ascension to the throne, and the power struggle between her and Caudacus for a long time, this was used in part as a vehicle to move Jennah’s character forward and show that she is a power to be reckoned with.

I also agree with the poster above who talks about comparing this to Great Britain and how it’s not the same thing, and people shouldn’t think about this through real life, and modern eyes. Many monarchies in history had elements of democracy in their nations throughout history (ancient rome/greece/scandanavia), but with the monarch holding the ultimate de-facto authority. We know through a description of the government in-game that the ministry does hold power as an element of check/balance, and is actually an institution more recently introduced during Jennah’s reign. We know that Jennah is described as an Egalitarian who has pursued lot’s of reforms to try and improve the lives of the people of Kryta, and we know that she’s supposedly one of the, if not THE most powerful mesmer currently known. I’ve seen a lot of people talk about how they feel something is “off” about her, and I personally chalk that up to a lack of direct development and involvement of her character in the active storyline until this point, as well as a lot of people aren’t really aware of how she has ruled this far and how benevolent she has actually been. Nothing about her rubs me the wrong way, I don’t think she’s evil or a tyrant, and she was completely within her right to dissolve the ministry when she did, given the circumstances. I do think she knows a lot more than it’s let on to believe, but one should expect this anyway. She is the Queen, after all, and in this world (Tyria) that truly holds A LOT of weight. I think she is one of the more polarizing and interesting characters in the story for all of these reasons, and I really hope we get to see a lot more development of her character going forward. She is one of our only real ties to GW1 through her lineage, after all. She is Queen of Kryta, effectively has become the Queen of human Ascalon (as per the treaty, and her lineage), and her royal lineage also connects her to the rulers of Orr. I think she will, and should have a very large role to play going forward.

As for the popular Lyssa theory, I have mixed feelings about it, but I do think that would be pretty amazing to see lol. Her, or Anise.

Being a powerful mesmer does not make one a tyrant. Have the capability to be d everyone to your will does not mean that you have done so any more than a big badkitten warrior’s ability to bully everyone smaller than himself means that he does so.

That said, she is a dictator, even if not necessarily a tyrant.

Ashen.2907:

Being a powerful mesmer does not make one a tyrant. Have the capability to be d everyone to your will does not mean that you have done so any more than a big badkitten warrior’s ability to bully everyone smaller than himself means that he does so.

That said, she is a dictator, even if not necessarily a tyrant.

She is not a dicator, she’s a monarch, dictator is a person who gets to power through sheer force, without an hereditary succession to legitimate his rule. Caudecus would have been a dictator had his schemes worked.

Pax.3548:

dictator is a person who gets to power through sheer force, without an hereditary succession to legitimate his rule.

No.

Ashen.2907:

Pax.3548:

dictator is a person who gets to power through sheer force, without an hereditary succession to legitimate his rule.

No.

Ok, so this is why it’s important to leave a rebuttal ONLY if you have information to back it up. Not only because it gives some credibility to your side of the argument, but also because you can avoid embarrassing situations, such as finding out that your opponent literally just posted the definition of a dictator.
From the English dictionary: “noun
1.
a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
2.
(in ancient Rome) a person invested with supreme authority during a crisis, the regular magistracy being subordinated to him until the crisis was met.
3.
a person who authoritatively prescribes conduct, usage, etc.:
a dictator of fashion.
4.
a person who dictates, as to a secretary.”

Also, just saying “No” with no further argument is the internet equivalent of stomping your feet and yelling “You’re wrong shut up!”

Squee.7829:

Ashen.2907:

Pax.3548:

dictator is a person who gets to power through sheer force, without an hereditary succession to legitimate his rule.

No.

Ok, so this is why it’s important to leave a rebuttal ONLY if you have information to back it up. Not only because it gives some credibility to your side of the argument, but also because you can avoid embarrassing situations, such as finding out that your opponent literally just posted the definition of a dictator.
From the English dictionary: “noun
1.
a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
2.
(in ancient Rome) a person invested with supreme authority during a crisis, the regular magistracy being subordinated to him until the crisis was met.
3.
a person who authoritatively prescribes conduct, usage, etc.:
a dictator of fashion.
4.
a person who dictates, as to a secretary.”

Also, just saying “No” with no further argument is the internet equivalent of stomping your feet and yelling “You’re wrong shut up!”

Invented, or misinterpreted/misquoted definitions do not need a rebuttal.

“The English Dictionary…”

There is only one?

Merriam Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictator

Definition of dictator
1
a : a person granted absolute emergency power; especially, history : one appointed by the senate (see senate 1a) of ancient Rome
b : one holding complete autocratic control : a person with unlimited governmental power
c : one ruling in an absolute (see absolute 2) and often oppressive way fascist dictators
2
: one who says or reads something for a person to transcribe or for a machine to record : one that dictates (see 1dictate 1)

Dictionary.com
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dictator?s=t
noun
1.
a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

Note that they say especially in a government without hereditary succession, not exclusively so.

Cambridge:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/dictator#translations

dictator
noun [ C ] US ? /?d?k·te?·t??r, d?k?te?-/
?
politics & government someone who rules a country with complete power, has complete control over the armed forces, and destroys any political opposition.

Cambridge adds the, “destroys any political opposition,” element but, again, no non-hereditary restrictions.

Oxford:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dictator

A ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.

1.1 A person who behaves in an autocratic way.

Oxford adds, “typically,” regarding gaining control by force but, again, not exclusively so. As the word has its origin in an appointed position, and as the other top tier dictionaries (not that dictionary.com qualifies as such but merriam and cambridge certainly qualify) exclude even this qualified qualifier its safe to say that although a dictator may gain their authority by force, they need not do so.

Its worth noting that even your listed definition contradicts the individual I had quoted. When something is, “especially,” so, then it is, by definition, not exclusively so.

I’m just going to leave this here:

http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/politics/difference-between-dictatorship-and-monarchy/

and this:

http://www.governmentvs.com/en/dictatorship-vs-monarchy/comparison-33-14-0

In this case, Tyria is a monarchy simply by definition of it’s head of state. The fact that it is highly similar to a dictatorship is secondary since both share a great amount of similarities. The deciding difference is in how the government is structured, and in this case it’s a monarchy.

Cyninja.2954:

I recommend people read:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ministry

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Queen_Jennah

Key segments of note:

Her Royal Majesty Jennah, Queen of Kryta and Regent of Ascalon is a descendant of King Doric and the last known member of the Salmaic dynasty, the ruling family of Kryta. Her coronation was in 1316 AE, after the death of her father. Her egalitarian rule makes her a very popular monarch in the eyes of her people, but this also causes much friction with the nobility.

and

When Jennah’s father died, the Ministry ruled Divinity’s Reach in her stead, as she was too young to ascend the throne immediately. Because of this, some Ministers have become accustomed to ruling Kryta and are reluctant to relinquish their former control, causing friction between the Ministry and the crown. Other sources of friction include the truce between the humans and charr, which some ministers consider to be an affront to the sacrifices made by the Ebon Vanguard, and the bandit and centaur attacks that continue to wear Kryta down. There are even quiet whispers that perhaps Jennah may not be fit to rule. More recently, the ministry have been the subject of several disturbing scandals, such as the revelation that Minister Julius Zamon was in fact in charge of one of the bandit factions harassing the city, the fact that the Ministry Guard lead by Commander Serentine was involved in a plot to discredit the Seraph by helping bandits, mainly Big Nose Ted, burn down both the Queen’s Heart Orphanage and the Vanguard Hospital, or Marjory Delaqua’s claim that a minister was spotted practising dark, occultic magic on a kidnapped woman. Despite these, the ministry remains popular among the citizenry of Kryta, largely due to the efforts of their Legate Minister.

Kryta is NOT a democracy. It’s a monarchy based on nobility and ruling family with a democratic element to appease the masses. This is not Great Britain where the monarchy has only symbolic value. Queen Jenna IS the main kitten and if she suspects the Ministry to be out of order (which has been the case all over the place lately) rest assured she will crush any opposition to her rule and has every right to do so.

Considering those aspects, I personally find Jenna to have been very lax and lenient in her approach and judgement. Her first priority is to keep her people safe and root out corruption and dissent which might endanger her subjects. The Ministry, or part of it, has been in direct violation to these goals and thus has forced Queen Jennas hand.

The attack which Jenna had prepared for is only the culmination of a powerstruggle which luckily Jenna has decided for herself.

Very good points, Cyninja. We have seen many cases (both in our real history and in many fantasy and sci/fi novels) where a monarchy is temporarily replaced by a governing body due to a young or absent heir, and then when that heir is ready to reclaim the throne, that “temporary measure” may not be so willing to let go. Just look at the Steward of Gondor’s reluctance to surrender the throne in Tolkien’s “Return of the King”. In this case, we have a ministry that has shown, more than once, how corruptible it can be (if in doubt, just play through the human level 10 story)

The problem is that despite this one evil does not make another good. Jennah’s reaction and manipulations might indeed make her a lesser evil now, but her methods clearly show an early sign of a willingness to employ draconian methods to achieve her results.

Combine this with the very occultistic method of practice the Shining Blade employ in their recruitment of new inner circle members and it becomes clear that the Blade and Jennah are actually very little better if at all than the Mantle and Ministry itself.

In conclusion.

Its very likely over time Jennah will become an antagonist, because she has been playing the long game to secure power, which once she fully has, she will have no need for equality. This has already been made clear with the fact she calls her actions against the ministry a “precaution” but it becomes clear she is very unlikley to ever relinquish her new found control over them.

In essence, she is a tyrant, she is, a manipulative and clever tyrant that preceeds herself a democrat because over time, she is slowly becomming a dictator.

Notice how the Charr now help her? Why? Because she is seen as a beneficient face with a beneficial goal, to secure peace.

What you never understand is “at any cost” is also part of her agenda. She is willing to do what ever it takes, however, it takes, to secure that peace.

Over time, this will, inavoidably, make her into a tyrant.

I just read through the recent AMA. Alas, despite these threads on the forum no one inquired if the Ministry is actually still suspended or if that was a short-term ploy that she didn’t really mean to implement.

Either answer is arguable based on the in-game info and on the Patch Notes blurb.

Some of my RP plots depend on which is the canon answer. Anyone got a way to ask an ANet person? Ping them on Reddit somehow? (No, I cannot do that myself).

Well, according to some dialogue in the latest episode there is a new legate minister and he is working hard to undo some of the damage done by Caudecus.

So it seems that the ministry is back in power.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

The problem is that despite this one evil does not make another good. Jennah’s reaction and manipulations might indeed make her a lesser evil now, but her methods clearly show an early sign of a willingness to employ draconian methods to achieve her results.

Combine this with the very occultistic method of practice the Shining Blade employ in their recruitment of new inner circle members and it becomes clear that the Blade and Jennah are actually very little better if at all than the Mantle and Ministry itself.

In conclusion.

Its very likely over time Jennah will become an antagonist, because she has been playing the long game to secure power, which once she fully has, she will have no need for equality. This has already been made clear with the fact she calls her actions against the ministry a “precaution” but it becomes clear she is very unlikley to ever relinquish her new found control over them.

In essence, she is a tyrant, she is, a manipulative and clever tyrant that preceeds herself a democrat because over time, she is slowly becomming a dictator.

You are making the one mistake which people love to make: you are judging a situation from outside the glass bubble and drawing analogies which in the context provided make no sense.

We have had no idicators so far that Queen Jenna has been abusing power. The love of her people towards her paints her as a benevolent ruler with the public strongly in favor of her. The story has been very clear on who the antagonists within the ruling class have been so far.

Everything else has been pure speculation from your end based on your own real world view and belief which is unfounded or depicted within the game lore or story wise.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Notice how the Charr now help her? Why? Because she is seen as a beneficient face with a beneficial goal, to secure peace.

What you never understand is “at any cost” is also part of her agenda. She is willing to do what ever it takes, however, it takes, to secure that peace.

Over time, this will, inavoidably, make her into a tyrant.

She is securing peace because she understands that in the longrun, that is the best option for her people as far as safety and quality life. May I call into memory what happened the last time the charr and humans clashed? Who was forced were exactly? Holding on to past grudges while literally the world is falling appart (Dragon Crysis, White Mantle Crysis, now Balthasar Crysis) would be something an unfit ruler would do.

VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618:

Well, according to some dialogue in the latest episode there is a new legate minister and he is working hard to undo some of the damage done by Caudecus.

So it seems that the ministry is back in power.

Which would be futher proof that Queen Jennas intervention was ment to weed out the rott and not as a pure power play.

I think one aspect of some people’s dislike for Jenna that hasn’t been touched yet is that the “tyranny = good, any hint of democracy = bad” story is sketchy no matter how many in-world justifications the writers decide to throw at it. These people and events aren’t real, they were written that way by choice, and it’s simply not a theme that works for everyone.

That’s my take on it, at least. In combination with Jenna’s attitude towards the player character and my persistent wondering of “Okay, what the bleep is my character’s purpose in this story? Is it just being condescended to and yanked around by yet another 2-k3wl-4-u NPC?” (*) in the mess that was LS3, my attitude towards her is definitely soured … and it was not that good to begin with, given her involvement in the failed attack on Kralkatorrik.

(*) There’s a long string of them this season, and yet the player character is the one constantly getting crapped on for being mean to people and a bad leader. Go figure.

Chadramar.8156:

I think one aspect of some people’s dislike for Jenna that hasn’t been touched yet is that the “tyranny = good, any hint of democracy = bad” story is sketchy no matter how many in-world justifications the writers decide to throw at it. These people and events aren’t real, they were written that way by choice, and it’s simply not a theme that works for everyone.

Oh I agree, it’s understandable that people will draw from their own experience and values when judging story and events. Maybe the lack (mostly due to time constraints) of story or lore related obvious ingame depictions of how the monrachy is beneficial (or detrimental) as well as the same for the ministry would have made this a tad clearer.

On the other hand, we currently live in a real life world where dictatorships in certain parts of the world were collapsed and the people living there are far worse off than before with open war in many of them. I hate drawing this analogy since there have been more benevolent monarchies during our history while dictatorships almost alsways have been oppressive. It is the best way of approaching this theme from a modern persons view though.

Chadramar.8156:

That’s my take on it, at least. In combination with Jenna’s attitude towards the player character and my persistent wondering of “Okay, what the bleep is my character’s purpose in this story? Is it just being condescended to and yanked around by yet another 2-k3wl-4-u NPC?” (*) in the mess that was LS3, my attitude towards her is definitely soured … and it was not that good to begin with, given her involvement in the failed attack on Kralkatorrik.

Also understandable since Trahearne and people not wanting to play the ever lackey in the story. One has to seperate the animosity from the role the player character has from the actual political happenings though.

I guess the writers wanted to tone down the entire: you are the greatest, you are the best, you are essentially king kong banging his chest (there even fit a small Hall of Fame reference in there ^^). While some characters pouting and being mean to the main character, that is partly understandable (Braham is going through his mourning phase, something everyone who has lost a close loved one understands especially if it was a parent) while on the other hand that’s how stuff often works out in real life too. Once a crysis is resolved, people hurry back to normality and old deeds fade.

Taking the definitions into account, then Jennah is indeed a dictator. He has the absolute power and nobody can challenge this.

We found that the Shining Blade is a secret order at least of the same magnitude and power as Vigils / Durmand Priory / Order of Whispers. They know things unknown to the Order of Whispers. They have artifacts and technology at least on the same level with the Durmand Priory. And the military strength of the Blades is as great as the Vigils. The blades alone solved the attack of the White Mantles – and the Mantles were strong enough to stir trouble all over Tyria after surviving undetected for so long time.

And the purpose of the Blades is to get rid of the Mursaats and to protect the Royal family of Kryta. Now the last Mursaat is dead. The only reason to exist for the Blades is to protect the Royal family. Now the royal family of Kryta is represented by Jennah. And Jennah has under hers command a powerful organization having one single reason for existence – to keep the queen safe :-))

They have no interest in Tiria – they don’t participate in the effort of defeating the Dragons – the safety of the Royal family is over any other reasons. Even the safety of the planet comes second.

Again – Jennah commands this force. She can very easily disband any form of Ministry / Parliament without any fear. In this moment she holds the entire power in Kryta. And she can use it without giving any explanation.

She had the power all the times – how many times the Blades took orders from a Ministry?

Professor Sprout.1560:

There is a popular theory going around that Jennah is the human goddess Lyssa. If this is true, and if the theory that not just Balthazar but all the gods have been weakened is also true, then her unusually negative portrayal in Head of the Snake might have been an attempt by the writers to set her up as a possible adversary figure in the expansion.

I’d like this to be true. It doesn’t mean we’d have to fight against her though. She may remain on our side if she was to turn out to be the likes of Lyssa.

Maybe you have to have god-like powers to be able to resist the rugged good looks of Mr. Thackeray.

Cristalyan.5728:

Taking the definitions into account, then Jennah is indeed a dictator. He has the absolute power and nobody can challenge this.

Well taking second burst of definitions into accout, every monarch ever would be a dictator… (with few exceptions where the royal family serves no purpose other than representative one)

Actually it would make all non-democratic monarchies into dictatorships, and sicne they are noticeable differences between these two I’d say that internet dictionaries should be taken with a pinch of salt.

As for Jennah – she’s without any doubt a monarch. “dictator” is alot more modern word tbh and I am unsure if we should even consider using it in medievalish fantasy setting… at least when kryta is concerned.

We could argue upon a type of monarch she is, and one thing for sure – for all we know she wants good for her people.

Before I’ll delve little bit deeper into that one – I will adress question in the topic of this thread. By ancient Greek standard – yes Jennah is a Tyrant – but then they defined a word very simply – if country is run by a single person making decisions – then this person is a tyrant. Notable mention here would be that citizens of Athens extremely disliked the possibility of one person ruling over them – regardless of quality of said person.

By a little bit more modern standards you could argue, as people tends to associante word “tyrant” with “usurper” in a way that when they say tyrant they mean not only a person who has absolute power in the state – but also that person have got into that power throught “wrong” ways.

Back to the monarchy in kryta though – personally I’d lean onto kryta working on a more of feudal monarchy than absolute one – as far as we can see there are different areas administered by different people, responding to the queen – most notably Bettlestone village with surrounding area is clearly stated to be under the rule of local nobility family – used to be Caduceus, but I am not sure who have supposefully taken it up after death of his and all his possible heirs I am aware off.

If Jennah was and absolute monarch by the way the whole plot with caduceus would not happen – he would be most likely beheaded just after failed assasination in story mode of Caduceus Manor dungeon – with absolute monarchy no one would care about proving caduceus guilt – the mere fact that such a thing occured under caduceus nose would be more than enought for execution. Which is more than a profo to me that absolute monarchy is not a thing in kryta.

As for Shining Blade – I think that’s a notable overestimation of it’s abilities.
Sure, they know things that Order of Whispers does not, but on the other hand order of whispers seems to be in knowledge of things that Shining Blade could never even dream of – assuming they even cared.
Magical Artifacts up to Priory’s standard? well that one may actually be, but even if, the mere amounts of those artifacts in priory’s posession would probably outdo Shining Blade by quite a margin.
Military Strength of the Vigil? nah, not even close – Seraphs, maybe could rival it – but not the Shining Blade – straight military strenght was never attribute of that group by the way.

Also – Shining Blade is sword to protect kryta – if shining Blade alone had strenght and assets of 3 orders of tyria combined – would the pact be ever needed? “obviously” dragons are a danger to kryta – and the queen – so what would be stopping Shining Blade from killing off zhaitan while 3 orders were still disagreeing in their methods?

VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618:

Well, according to some dialogue in the latest episode there is a new legate minister and he is working hard to undo some of the damage done by Caudecus.

So it seems that the ministry is back in power.

Yes, thank you! I am starting my second play through and just saw this myself. I mean I saw it last Tuesday, but was under time pressure so it took this second run for me to twig to it.

I’m comfortable now RPing that the Ministry persists as an institution.

Chadramar.8156:

I think one aspect of some people’s dislike for Jenna that hasn’t been touched yet is that the “tyranny = good, any hint of democracy = bad” story is sketchy no matter how many in-world justifications the writers decide to throw at it. These people and events aren’t real, they were written that way by choice, and it’s simply not a theme that works for everyone.

Caudecus’ intentions were about as democratic as Assad. He puts on a show of using the trappings of democracy, but there is no doubt that his reign would have been an authoritarian one.

Now, Jennah’s position is not a democratic one either, but the idea that undemocratic = bad is a fairly modern kneejerk reaction (particularly strong among Americans) that doesn’t fit in a medieval context, and in fact a monarchy which succeeds in achieving a succession of good monarchs is in many ways a better form of government than democracy. The main benefit of democracy is that it provides for a means of getting rid of a bad ruler, but there are a lot of weaknesses in democracy – in Churchill’s words, it’s the worst system of government ever devised apart from everything else that’s ever been tried. It’s often been said that a benevolent dictatorship – and, to all evidence, Jennah appears to be benevolent – is actually the best form of government. (The problem is the question of how to ensure that the dictator remains benevolent, especially when one dies and you need to select a new one.)

Which brings me to…

Cristalyan.5728:

And the purpose of the Blades is to get rid of the Mursaats and to protect the Royal family of Kryta. Now the last Mursaat is dead. The only reason to exist for the Blades is to protect the Royal family. Now the royal family of Kryta is represented by Jennah. And Jennah has under hers command a powerful organization having one single reason for existence – to keep the queen safe :-))

First, the Shining Blade did not defeat the White Mantle single-handed – far from it. Most of the fighting was done by the Seraph. In fact, the Charr auxiliaries in Lake Doric did more of the work than the Shining Blade did there. The Shining Blade is a combination of bodyguard and special forces – they do not, and did not, have the power to fight a war on their own. They’re the smallest of the military orders of Kryta.

Second… we actually do get the priority list of the Shining Blade. It goes “Kryta, the Krytan monarchy, and the Krytan people.” Even then, they have a justification for putting the people last of those three – because sacrificing the nation or the monarchy would make the people worse off anyway. They do care about the people, and the nation, and by extension, they care about the world, because Kryta is part of the world. However, despite having the odd magical artifact, they’re not big enough to try to look after the entire world themselves. They specialise on direct threats to Kryta, and leave the bigger picture to the Order of Whispers.

Third, and why this links into the start of this post…

In Sea of Sorrows, Livia makes it clear that the Shining Blade is dedicated to the Krytan monarchy, not to the individual who happens to be occupying the throne at the time. They can, and do, defy the monarch if they feel that the monarch is putting the interests of Kryta at risk, and this is particularly so if they feel that the monarch might be putting the continued rule of the royal family at risk. This essentially means that, far from being a tool of autocratic power, the Shining Blade themselves are one of the checks on the monarch’s power. The last thing they want is another Oswald that would lead to a revolution where the people might decide after the revolution that they don’t need a king or queen after all – if a monarch was to start going in a tyrannical direction, it might well be the Shining Blade that quietly arranges for their removal before it gets to the point of triggering a revolt.

Tyrant? Not sure, but unethical and manipulative, yes.

From “Edge of Destiny,” in the scene where Logan and Jennah are being introduced, all he does is affirm his loyalty to his monarch, and BAM, she mesmer-bonds him. Doesn’t tell him what it is, what it means, or give him a choice. Then, even though she knows of the mission to bring down a dragon, she calls Logan to her in the middle of the battle, compelling him, even though she ends up pretty much taking care of things all by herself.

From that point on, I do not trust Jennah.

Cyninja.2954:

Maybe the lack (mostly due to time constraints) of story or lore related obvious ingame depictions of how the monrachy is beneficial (or detrimental) as well as the same for the ministry would have made this a tad clearer.

Definitely. And it should be shades-of-grey for both sides, not Jenna = good, minsters = bad unless they’re her sycophants.

Regarding the RL aspect: the rise of fascism and national (and racial) supremacism is one reason why this squicks me out so much. Being tortured and magically enslaved to ensure utter loyalty to a fanatical secret police devoted to a potentially hostile foreign power is a really awful story beat, especially if it goes down the typical GW road of “this is being done TO your character, but you will never get a chance to choose how you feel about it or explorer what it does to you because we long since abandoned any notion of this being your story”.

Also understandable since Trahearne and people not wanting to play the ever lackey in the story.

See, I liked Trahearne (granted, playing primarily sylvari helped) and had absolutely no problem with “only” being his second in command. The PS has its flaws and ham-fisted eyeroll moments to be sure, but it didn’t make me question whether I was wanted, needed or appreciated or what the point in me being there was.

Most of what that came afterwards on the other hand is essentially an NPC fawn-fest and our supposed protagonist basically has no place in it except as everyone’s punching bag and errand-runner. Our “friends” drama-llama all over us at every turn but never show any actual friendly interest in or support for us (which is especially glaring when playing HoT as a sylvari), and that’s before they decide we are the worst and most selfish leader ever. The return of voice acting for the player character is a big improvement over LS1&2, yes, but the focus of the writing just keeps moving further and further away from us.

I guess the writers wanted to tone down the entire: you are the greatest, you are the best, you are essentially king kong banging his chest

Actually, the PS made me feel like I was part of a team, not some incomparable god — I love the Pact and the idea behind it, and am really annoyed at how the writers casually kicked it to be garbage bin in favor of the abovementioned NPC drama-llamaing.

(Braham is going through his mourning phase, something everyone who has lost a close loved one understands especially if it was a parent)

Braham is one of the biggest of the many problems with LS3. Throughout HoT, he gets nothing but respect and support for his worry and grief, even when it makes him act like a jerk towards others. At most, he gets asked not to blindly charge into danger. You can even bring him to the final battle, and it would never have occured to my canon story character to deny him that. None of that is acknowledged.

Neither can you do anything to counter his BS about “try losing your mother”. Humans can be orphaned gutter rats. Charr lose their warband. Sylvari have to watch many of their siblings fall to the corruption of the same dragon that’s also screaming in their own head, mercy-kill their oldest brother, and the sole mother of their entire people is in a coma she may never recover from. Did Braham or any of the other NPCs ever ask about that? Nope. Our history, our emotions, our culture, our past choices don’t exist and don’t matter. That badly needs to change.

Her barrier and abilities tell me there is much more going on than we were let on to believe. Tyrant, I don’t think so. With all the power she has, she could rule humanity with an iron fist. Instead, she lets people claim power and is quite soft in her responses to tyranny. I think she is Lyssa.

draxynnic.3719

In Sea of Sorrows, Livia makes it clear that the Shining Blade is dedicated to the Krytan monarchy, not to the individual who happens to be occupying the throne at the time. They can, and do, defy the monarch if they feel that the monarch is putting the interests of Kryta at risk, and this is particularly so if they feel that the monarch might be putting the continued rule of the royal family at risk.

I truly hope you are wrong. Because if true, that means the Blades are the true rulers of Kryta.
Is the same as saying that the Police Force in one country is dedicated to maintain the order in the country. And if they feel that a President is not good enough for this or that a President may not serve the purpose of maintaining the order in the country they may take action against him. Keeping the President as institution but eliminating the person they don’t like.

If the Blades are not a merely tool for the monarch and they have even the slightest degree of initiative (regarding the Monarch) based on what they feel, that means Kryta is no more a Monarchy. It is an anarchy.

I find a much better situation to have Jennah as a Tyrant than to have the Blades as the secret organization deciding who will be the Monarch, what kind of politics the Monarch is allowed to make, deciding when a Monarch should be replaced etc. All of this based on what they feel.

Cristalyan.5728:

draxynnic.3719

In Sea of Sorrows, Livia makes it clear that the Shining Blade is dedicated to the Krytan monarchy, not to the individual who happens to be occupying the throne at the time. They can, and do, defy the monarch if they feel that the monarch is putting the interests of Kryta at risk, and this is particularly so if they feel that the monarch might be putting the continued rule of the royal family at risk.

I truly hope you are wrong. Because if true, that means the Blades are the true rulers of Kryta.
Is the same as saying that the Police Force in one country is dedicated to maintain the order in the country. And if they feel that a President is not good enough for this or that a President may not serve the purpose of maintaining the order in the country they may take action against him. Keeping the President as institution but eliminating the person they don’t like.

If the Blades are not a merely tool for the monarch and they have even the slightest degree of initiative (regarding the Monarch) based on what they feel, that means Kryta is no more a Monarchy. It is an anarchy.

I find a much better situation to have Jennah as a Tyrant than to have the Blades as the secret organization deciding who will be the Monarch, what kind of politics the Monarch is allowed to make, deciding when a Monarch should be replaced etc. All of this based on what they feel.

kinda reminds historical pretorians – whom have if memory serves auctioned throne of rome like twice.

and then I’d heavilly disagree with choice of words – it’d not be anarchy [no rule/rule of chaos] but oligarchy – rule of specific “chosen group”.

and then I suppose tha decision of this caliber [going against this specifc monarch because he/she is putting royal line in jeopardy] would at no point just pass by “I feel like this king/queen is bad let’s change it” but would actually require a common decision among most – if not all of the inner circle – probably something along the lines of – one of them raises suspition on one of their super-secret-meetings and then they discuss it and come to one conclusion together – and then also what the guy above said does nto say they pick the monarch per se – they are still bound to specific line – they couldn’t just say that jennah is bad and swap her for… for example logan even if she was dismantling kryta – because there is no other member of this specific royal family to replace her – although I’d imagine at this point of time countess anise tryign to talk jennah into “finally having some kids, because the lien will not prolong itself on it’s own kitten” :P

Cristalyan.5728:

I find a much better situation to have Jennah as a Tyrant than to have the Blades as the secret organization deciding who will be the Monarch, what kind of politics the Monarch is allowed to make, deciding when a Monarch should be replaced etc. All of this based on what they feel.

I’m not sure how this is worse than the monarchy itself, which is based entirely on the pure dumb accident of birth. Not intelligence, wisdom, trustworthiness, compassion especially for the poor and vulnerable, fairness, the willingness to always put duty before personal whims, the ability to form strong alliances, or any other kind of merit. Certainly not the popular vote or accountability to the people. Jenna parks her backside in a fancy chair because her father did the same before her. That’s all that matters.

At least with the Shining Blade hanging over their heads, Kryta’s monarchs have some kind of accountability. Of course, it raises the old question of who watches the watchers, and whether their definition of what is “good for Kryta” is any better than a given monarch’s. For example, what if the Blades decided that an alliance with the charr is treason, that dirty nonhumans shouldn’t sully Krytan soil in general, and that the people who babble about the threat of the Elder Dragons are all liars?

Jennah is unfit to rule. The only thing you need to know to prove that is that she demolished a former residential district to build an arena for her own amusement and lavish festivals, likely at devastating cost to the Krytan taxpayers.

Cristalyan.5728:

draxynnic.3719

In Sea of Sorrows, Livia makes it clear that the Shining Blade is dedicated to the Krytan monarchy, not to the individual who happens to be occupying the throne at the time. They can, and do, defy the monarch if they feel that the monarch is putting the interests of Kryta at risk, and this is particularly so if they feel that the monarch might be putting the continued rule of the royal family at risk.

I truly hope you are wrong. Because if true, that means the Blades are the true rulers of Kryta.
Is the same as saying that the Police Force in one country is dedicated to maintain the order in the country. And if they feel that a President is not good enough for this or that a President may not serve the purpose of maintaining the order in the country they may take action against him. Keeping the President as institution but eliminating the person they don’t like.

If the Blades are not a merely tool for the monarch and they have even the slightest degree of initiative (regarding the Monarch) based on what they feel, that means Kryta is no more a Monarchy. It is an anarchy.

I find a much better situation to have Jennah as a Tyrant than to have the Blades as the secret organization deciding who will be the Monarch, what kind of politics the Monarch is allowed to make, deciding when a Monarch should be replaced etc. All of this based on what they feel.

Eh. Having the power to remove the ‘official’ government does not mean you’re the de facto government yourself, unless you do so (or threaten to do so) on a regular basis. And if, hypothetically, the Shining Blade started to do that, I imagine it wouldn’t be too long before a monarch conspired to remove them.

From the precedent I cited, it appears that the Shining Blade generally doesn’t interfere with the monarch’s decisions. They didn’t interfere in Edair’s succession and only defied his orders once – in order to allow prisoners to escape, in accordance with orders from the previous king.

Keep in mind that the oath of the Shining Blade is still to support the rule of the Krytan royal line. If they were to undermine that rule by puppet-mastering the monarchy, then they would be violating the oath… and the founder of the Shining Blade as we now know it is still around to make sure they don’t get any ideas.

If you know about the Australian political system, a parallel could be drawn to the position of Governor-General. The GG has the power to dismiss a government, and being able to do so in an emergency is part of their job… but in practice it’s rarely used (it’s only happened once) and the GG generally doesn’t get involved in politics. The Shining Blade is probably similar. In a pinch, they can defy the monarch, possibly even replace them… but they only do so if they believe that the alternative will be disastrous.

Taglor Anwamane.9468:

Jennah is unfit to rule. The only thing you need to know to prove that is that she demolished a former residential district to build an arena for her own amusement and lavish festivals, likely at devastating cost to the Krytan taxpayers.

no, she has took a place that was in major ruin, and gave it a purpose of existing that have fit the area – sure she could just bust off the funds to build another canthan district ontop of the great collapse – but considering the reasons why it collapsed in the first place – don’t you think that the other one would be likely to collapse in exacly same way? wasting ven more resources and killing even more people?