Guild Wars 2

havoc.6814:

What do I think bias means? I think it means to cause to feel or demonstrate either inclination or prejudice toward or against someone or something.

I see. You are referring to the colloquial expression that a person is biased. Good to know, because it allows me to explain the issue more accurately.

This thread isn’t about any particular person being biased. It discusses the alleged gender bias in GW2. Since the game isn’t a sapient entity, your definition of bias doesn’t apply to it. There is the possibility that any number of developers might harbor such a bias, but that is outside the limits of conversation, except for the extent any such bias affects the game itself. Thus, we are reduced to examining the game by objective methods to see whether there is a case to be made — in other words, statistics.

Your error is one of personification — observing a number of occurrences that can be explained by random, non-sapient processes, and postulating a sapient entity with a purpose. As such, your position becomes non-falsifiable and thus prevents meaningful discourse.

I’m going to agree with the above posts by tmakinen and others. To prove there is a bias you are going to have to widen your sample size and not just look at the main characters of a single season of the living world as the be all and end all of GW2 gender distributions.

So let’s use this list of story characters from the wiki which is as complete a list as I could find and it lists characters showing in personal story, the orders storyline, the pact storyline, dungeon stories, and the living world. It’s not perfect or complete but it is the best currently available that I could locate.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Story_characters

Counting the characters with a gender listed you get 103 male characters and 56 female characters. That shows a very strong bias in favour of male characters across the wider game.

If you look at just the living world it is 18 male to 12 female, but that list isn’t complete and misses a number of characters of both genders that appeared in later updates.

It is true this thread is about major male characters, but arguable there are plenty of major male characters present in other parts of GW2 from the personal story onwards. Because you choose to ignore them because it doesn’t fit your arguments doesn’t really help you prove your point.

The personal bias angle that havoc mentioned gave me an idea. Earlier in this thread Raziel gave a link to a study that found an average male bias of 86% for game characters. I had pointed out how the 4F-to-1M distribution of DE Mk II is consistent with the null hypothesis of an unbiased distribution. Despite that, there seem to be players who feel very strongly that a bias is present. What gives?

Let’s repeat the null hypothesis (no bias) calculation. The distribution is B(5, 0.5) and the observed sample of { 4F, 1M } gets the probability P(| X – EX(X) | > 1) = 0.375. In other words, assuming a fair distribution of males and females, the observation of “at most 1 out of 5 of minority” has a reasonable probability that falls within the 1-sigma confidence limit. Thus, for a person without any preconceived notions about gender distribution, the observed distribution appears fair.

However, if we have another person who has already internalized the existing bias, then the observation appears completely different. The hypothesis distribution is now B(5, 0.86) and the evaluated probability P(X < 2) = 0.000615. This value is well beyond the 3-sigma limit of statistical significance. Thus, a person who sees the existing genre-wide bias as unbiased will perceive a 4F-to-1M situation as strongly biased.

Thus, we can have two groups of people, one perceiving no bias and the other perceiving a strong bias — both confident of the validity of their subjective perception. The difference in perception is explained by the latter group having a large inherent bias that they see as “normal”.

This demonstrates quite nicely the “talking from a position of privilege” part that has been mentioned earlier.

If their was not an issue then this topic would not exist let alone be so long and fiercely debated. I think it is good that people post in this topic so much, keeps it active and noticed. The last topic about this subject was perhaps just as popular and long as this one, though it did unfortunately eventually get locked due to off topic posts and extremely heated and often rude posts. Be careful how you talk to each other guys and girls, no need to be disrespectful.

You are making sense Havoc, though I think your energies may be wasted trying to prove a point with tmakinen.1048.

Canach is a decent enough character that would be well suited to join the main cast of heroes, I would not be upset if he was chosen as the next male hero. Failing that perhaps a new one from the Brisban Wildlands, perhaps some kind of crazy Skritt mechanic would be nice.

havoc.6814:

So nice to see that you are your own biggest fan. I really think you should get off of your theoretical kick and get involved in reality. What your statistics and perverse mathematics can’t resolve (because your sample is too small) is readily apparent to those of us who can see and interpret things without resorting to a calculator.

Statistics and “perverse” mathematics are the way to determine if there’s a bias, not opinion.
Everyone has an opinion, I can say it’s not biased, you can say it is, bummer, how do we tell? Oh, maybe we have a solid way to determine it, one that takes into account a large ammount of data instead of random opinions? Mmmm what method could that be?

havoc.6814:

Maybe when you have gotten a large enough sample to overcome your calculator handicap, you will be able to agree.

You mean when he stops using a proven method and resorts to “I say so”

havoc.6814:

Until then I would suggest that you stop with the condescending attitude.

Explaining the same thing 5 times in 2 pages aint condescending

havoc.6814:

Telling people that they are not qualified to discuss this while outright admitting that you lack the data to have an opinion yourself is ridiculous to say the least. Guess what, that means you are the one who is unqualified.

After he explained this (twice) a few people came and suggested really dumb methods to determine bias, sooooo…. yeah, some people are not qualified to discuss this.
Data analysis is a college subject, that’s like going to a chemistry discussion, with no knowledge of the topic and saying “I’m qualified”.

havoc.6814:

There is a gender bias in the game.

Because you say so. Ignore well-developed methods to detemine bias.

Aedelric.1287:

You are making sense Havoc, though I think your energies may be wasted trying to prove a point with tmakinen.1048.

It’s the other way around.
Havoc = I think there’s bias.
tmaniken = here’s how you determine if there’s bias

Leshain.6720:

Oi’ people keep talking about the whole “relationships” deal going on in season 1 with the two human female characters going all kissy face on each otha’.

I couldn’t find a topic on this, but i have to say, the writers at arena net so far have been extremely biased when it comes to story character screen time from season 1.

But the real issue, in my opinion, (from a balanced cast of major characters perspective) is the lack of focus on major kitten male characters, mainly human.

Example for Season 1:
(Marj, Kas, Rox, Taimi, Scarlet, Mai Trin, Ellen Kiel, Turma > Braham, Captain Magnus, Evon, Canach)

I most likely missed some on both gender sides but I’m pretty sure i ain’t far off target. That is 8 to 4, literally double the amount of female focus to males.

I would have enjoyed it more if there were at least “SOME” strong male leads, there is none. Logan is stupid and has lady issues, Braham has mommy issues and eats too much ham, Lord Faren is the fool of tyria, Canach was on the right track since he was actually a loose cannon kitten at first but the writers nerfed him right at the ending in terms of personality.

Jus’ sayin it kinda ruined the experience for me, nothin wrong with a strong cool female character, but kitten mang balance the scales for season 2 please.

Pick any lad from this wallpaper and it’ll be all gewd.

Why did you open this can of worms, so to speak? It’s like you were asking for every radical feminist in the entire game to come on this thread and vent about how video games are incredibly biased towards male characters while not giving any actual feedback about the topic at hand.

Speaking of on topic, I’m okay with the feminine cast. A good character isn’t represented by his or her gender or romantic interests, nor is a good story defined by the balance of male or female protags. Some great characters with interesting backstories came from this ‘season’ (Scarlet not included), and I’m excited to see more. In fact, my favorite was probably Rox.

The only thing that I’m at odds with is the blatant shoehorning of homosexuality for the sake of being different or unique. To me, it just seems like a bad way to attempt to make a story more interesting. The right way, of course, would’ve been to actually make the story interesting by improving the plot. Assuming that Marjory was made a male, the kissing scene would’ve likely never even been conceived, and the romantic storyline between the two would’ve probably been more in the background as every romantic storyline in a video game should be – Especially with more pressing things to be concerned about (like Scarletwaking up the dragon). It just felt like it was forced in there regardless of the plot in order to appeal to a specific audience – That’s why I dislike it.

I know my opinions can come off controversial, but I mean no offense.

Raziel.4216:

Explaining the same thing 5 times in 2 pages aint condescending

You have much more patience than I do! I agree with your points but at a certain point don’t you get a headache from banging your head against the wall (i.e. trying to reason with those who are unwilling to listen)?

Also, we must remember that men have the “onerous burden” of being over-represented in politics, business, movies, video games, etc. Hilarious actually that some men are complaining about being marginalized in one small part of one video game – oh, the heavy burden of privilege and always being the focus of attention.

Kim.4152:

Raziel.4216:

Explaining the same thing 5 times in 2 pages aint condescending

You have much more patience than I do! I agree with your points but at a certain point don’t you get a headache from banging your head against the wall (i.e. trying to reason with those who are unwilling to listen)?

I’ve spent plenty of time debating the anti-vax folk, I’m used to it.
My hat’s off to tmakinen, he’s explained how to determine bias quite a few times now, even after he gets responses that say his “perverse mathematics” are wrong without actually refuting’em.

Kim.4152:

Also, we must remember that men have the “onerous burden” of being over-represented in politics, business, movies, video games, etc. Hilarious actually that some men are complaining about being marginalized in one small part of one video game – oh, the heavy burden of privilege and always being the focus of attention.

Agreed, it’s like we cant get over the fact that one – out of thousands of games out there – wont give us the spotlight.
Then we have the “but we dont have a decent male char!” folk, well some of us like braham. I know he didnt save the day, but he’s a decent char.

Rahar.9872:

The only thing that I’m at odds with is the blatant shoehorning of homosexuality for the sake of being different or unique. To me, it just seems like a bad way to attempt to make a story more interesting. The right way, of course, would’ve been to actually make the story interesting by improving the plot.

Or maybe they want to catter to one of the most universally underrepresented groups out there.
Some of us like it, just so you know

Rahar.9872:

Assuming that Marjory was made a male, the kissing scene would’ve likely never even been conceived

Can I have your crystal ball?

Raziel.4216:

Or maybe they want to catter to one of the most universally underrepresented groups out there.
Some of us like it, just so you know

I was expressing an opinion. I know that not everyone will agree with me, but it felt forced and artificial.

Raziel.4216:

Can I have your crystal ball?

Satire is not going to help your point.

Rahar.9872:

I was expressing an opinion.

Unless it is the `correct´ opinion, some people will simply just not be happy.

tmakinen.1048:

bullyrook.2165:

I take it to mean that what you meant to ask is “would we even be talking about this if Rox and Taimi were originally cast as males”. The answer: they wouldn’t be the same people

You have identified the correct question. You are still failing to answer it. In that hypothetical scenario the current Rox and Taimi wouldn’t exist. Hence, any answer that compares these two scenarios the way you do above is nonsensical.

Oooor perhaps you are wondering if that in the event that I felt there was a gender imbalance where males outnumber females in the main cast, would I be on board for adding more females? If that is what you meant, then the answer is: Absolutely. Makes sense for an MMO to appeal to all crowds Just try to remain civil, we can do that, right?

Aedelric.1287:

Rahar.9872:

I was expressing an opinion.

Unless it is the `correct´ opinion, some people will simply just not be happy.

And I was expressing an opinion too.
Unless it agrees with you, you will not be happy I see.

For those of you aching for a “leading male character”, why can’t it be your character? Really? Of course Brahm didn’t save the day, YOU did. If you play a male character in the game, it can be argued that there was in fact, a strong male character who has had a lot of screen time, will continue to get a lot of screen time, has done many heroic acts, and is generally likable, cast as a leading character in the Living Story. And from what I can gather about what’s in store for Season 2 and how it’ll put the player more at the center of things (supposedly, this is based on an article I read that had an interview with a Dev), that slot is already filled.

Kim.4152:

Raziel.4216:

Explaining the same thing 5 times in 2 pages aint condescending

You have much more patience than I do! I agree with your points but at a certain point don’t you get a headache from banging your head against the wall (i.e. trying to reason with those who are unwilling to listen)?

Also, we must remember that men have the “onerous burden” of being over-represented in politics, business, movies, video games, etc. Hilarious actually that some men are complaining about being marginalized in one small part of one video game – oh, the heavy burden of privilege and always being the focus of attention.

I believe the post is about iconics and biconics. Together they are 10 characters of which 7 are female. This group is not “one small part of one videogame”, it is the main group of heroes on a videogame we care (at least to read the forums). That group is the core of the story, the poster boys. In that core I see few male heroes, only 1 that actually is still active and I don’t like it (I didn’t like any of the other 2 much either to be honest). Me, OP and others are not happy about it, that is what this thread is about, not about what men should or should not accept or what happens in another videogames.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I believe the post is about iconics and biconics. Together they are 10 characters of which 7 are female. This group is not “one small part of one videogame”, it is the main group of heroes on a videogame we care (at least to read the forums). That group is the core of the story, the poster boys. In that core I see few male heroes, only 1 that actually is still active and I don’t like it (I didn’t like any of the other 2 much either to be honest). Me, OP and others are not happy about it, that is what this thread is about, not about what men should or should not accept or what happens in another videogames.

Quite right, but some might insist on the relevancy of other games, regardless if you play or even heard of them.

All we have is Braham and not many like him.

Aedelric.1287:

JGBarbarian.3579:

I believe the post is about iconics and biconics. Together they are 10 characters of which 7 are female. This group is not “one small part of one videogame”, it is the main group of heroes on a videogame we care (at least to read the forums). That group is the core of the story, the poster boys. In that core I see few male heroes, only 1 that actually is still active and I don’t like it (I didn’t like any of the other 2 much either to be honest). Me, OP and others are not happy about it, that is what this thread is about, not about what men should or should not accept or what happens in another videogames.

Quite right, but some might insist on the relevancy of other games, regardless if you play or even heard of them.

All we have is Braham and not many like him.

Yup, because GW2 is part of the videogame culture.

Was sailor moon sexist? On it’s own yes, inside a culture that barely gave the spotlight to women, no. Is it considered bad because it favors women? Dont think so.
Was the prince of bel air racist? On it’s own yes, inside a culture that barely gave the spotlight to black people, no. Is it considered bad because it favors black people? Doubt it.
2 easy examples that show how context channges the outcome, the same applies to GW2.

It’s quite common for the priviledged ones to want to ignore the overall context that favors them and focus on the single case that doesnt.
I’ma quote tmaniken’s post, it’s a simple explanation.

Let’s repeat the null hypothesis (no bias) calculation. The distribution is B(5, 0.5) and the observed sample of { 4F, 1M } gets the probability P(| X – EX(X) | > 1) = 0.375. In other words, assuming a fair distribution of males and females, the observation of “at most 1 out of 5 of minority” has a reasonable probability that falls within the 1-sigma confidence limit. Thus, for a person without any preconceived notions about gender distribution, the observed distribution appears fair.

However, if we have another person who has already internalized the existing bias, then the observation appears completely different. The hypothesis distribution is now B(5, 0.86) and the evaluated probability P(X < 2) = 0.000615. This value is well beyond the 3-sigma limit of statistical significance. Thus, a person who sees the existing genre-wide bias as unbiased will perceive a 4F-to-1M situation as strongly biased.

Thus, we can have two groups of people, one perceiving no bias and the other perceiving a strong bias — both confident of the validity of their subjective perception. The difference in perception is explained by the latter group having a large inherent bias that they see as “normal”.

This demonstrates quite nicely the “talking from a position of privilege” part that has been mentioned earlier.

Context changes the outcome of the calculation.
I’d stick to the 1st outcome, unless GW2 is somehow the one and only videogame out there that’s not part of the gamer culture.

Just because our focus has historically been on men doesn’t mean it should be that way. Tradition alone is not a good reason to say that something is how it should be. As we’re evolving as a society, it’s slowly and painfully starting to become more egalitarian. Other groups are starting to step out of the shadows, and that doesn’t mean that we have “dongle envy” as it was previously put. It just reflects a societal evolution, that has been much needed.

Prior to 1920 women weren’t allowed to vote, and up until then it was normal, the way it had always been. However, society evolved, and came to the general conclusion that just because it was tradition, didn’t make it right. I can bring up countless examples of this happening throughout history; why are we assuming that we’re past the point of evolution and that no more strides toward equality can or should be made. Just because a woman, or a person of color, or a gay person, or any other underrepresented group wants to be represented, doesn’t mean that they have any sort of envy for the largely over-represented group.

soaringleaper.7905:

doesn’t mean that they have any sort of envy for the largely over-represented group.

You mean over-represented, by a grand total of one hero, Braham.

I am liking this Tsuru Whitewing talk going on in another topic, make him one of the heroes and I would probably shut up about all this then.

Aedelric.1287:

soaringleaper.7905:

doesn’t mean that they have any sort of envy for the largely over-represented group.

You mean over-represented, by a grand total of one hero, Braham.

I am liking this Tsuru Whitewing talk going on in another topic, make him one of the heroes and I would probably shut up about all this then.

By a total of 86% of a year’s protagonists http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-009-9637-1
Or 96% of last year’s top 25 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/06/women-in-film-video-games_n_4548558.html
And in a more positive way https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/handle/2142/47355

God forbid we – oh my god! – have a game that gives the spotlight to the target of 4% of last year’s top games, no way!!
Can you imagine ? having almost every game out there catter to you, and then a game dares focus on someone else.

@Raziel.4216
@soaringleaper.7905

I don’t think your grand societal critique has any bearing on whether OP et al like the current female-dominated cast, just as it has no bearing on his taste for mustard or heavy metal music.
If he said he didn’t like that Scarlet was a Sylvari, you wouldn’t cite studies showing that plants are great benefactors to the oxygen content of the atmosphere and he’s wrong about not wanting her to be a Sylvari, right?
Because it’s just an opinion. Your notion that his criticism of this facet of a video game becomes invalid because there is some historical injustice that may or may not be relevant to the matter at hand is misguided to say the least. You could club any view point to the pseudo-moralistic ground with that rhetoric.

JGBarbarian.3579:

I believe the post is about iconics and biconics. Together they are 10 characters of which 7 are female. This group is not “one small part of one videogame”, it is the main group of heroes on a videogame we care (at least to read the forums). That group is the core of the story, the poster boys. In that core I see few male heroes, only 1 that actually is still active and I don’t like it (I didn’t like any of the other 2 much either to be honest). Me, OP and others are not happy about it, that is what this thread is about, not about what men should or should not accept or what happens in another videogames.

If you add the iconics and biconics together you get 11 characters (not counting the 2 pets). Everyone forgets poor Snaff.

You are correct about the 7 female characters however.

And while we are adding to the list of characters, why not do what I did yesterday and look at the entire list of NPCs featured in the GW2 story so far. You’ll find there are far more male characters than females (about 2 male characters for every female).

Of course, I’m sure people here won’t let that fact interrupt their ranting.

Jamais vu.5284:

@Raziel.4216
@soaringleaper.7905

I don’t think your grand societal critique has any bearing on whether OP et al like the current female-dominated cast, just as it has no bearing on his taste for mustard or heavy metal music.
If he said he didn’t like that Scarlet was a Sylvari, you wouldn’t cite studies showing that plants are great benefactors to the oxygen content of the atmosphere and he’s wrong about not wanting her to be a Sylvari, right?
Because it’s just an opinion. Your notion that his criticism of this facet of a video game becomes invalid because there is some historical injustice that may or may not be relevant to the matter at hand is misguided to say the least. You could club any view point to the pseudo-moralistic ground with that rhetoric.

Ah but you see, if someone claims there’s a bias, they can determine it using basic data analysis. There’s an objetive method that lets you know when a distribution is biased, it is or it isnt, it’s not a matter of opinion.
What do studies using this analysis show us using a large sample? That there’s bias, in the opposite direction.
What else can we tell? That you cant determine if the gender distribution is biased with such a small sample (5 characters).

They are entitled to their opinion, something like “I dont like braham” and we could all argue about why he’s good or bad.
But they’re not entitled to their own facts, stuff like

havoc.6814:

There is a gender bias in the game.

Jamais vu.5284:

I don’t think your grand societal critique has any bearing on whether OP et al like the current female-dominated cast, just as it has no bearing on his taste for mustard or heavy metal music.

Good point, preference and opinion is all anyone has. If someone was to say the male characters are inadequate, no one really has a right to argue about that personal opinion. Bias exists in the Living Story leads, be that fact or not it is still opinion and everyone is welcome to their own.

I look forward to seeing someone use convoluted arithmetic or some googled analytical report to determine whether I should like mustard or not, very amusing.

Aedelric.1287:

Good point, preference and opinion is all anyone has.

Bias exists or it doesnt, it’s not a matter of opinion.

Aedelric.1287:

If someone was to say the male characters are inadequate, no one really has a right to argue about that personal opinion.

That’s an opinion

Aedelric.1287:

Bias exists in the Living Story leads

That’s not an opinion.
Bias would be the distribution of gender among characters in such a way that a particular population is found in a particular way that we wouldnt find in a random distribution
Before you can even argue about the existance of bias your sample has to be large enough, the living story doesnt pass this restriction.
Those who argue from a position of priviledge are more likely to see bias (read tmakinen’s short explanation).

Aedelric.1287:

If someone was to say the male characters are inadequate, no one really has a right to argue about that personal opinion.

Well, the issue is not with the perceived inadequacy but the act of considering male characters as a separate group that requires affirmative action, instead of just asking for more adequate characters in general, be they male or female. The very same argument could be made for any other arbitrary division of characters into groups — like requesting a more adequate PoC representation (my Krytan (female) human main is darker than maybe 95% of NPCs in this game, and I consider her a person of Mediterranean-like descent at most). However, most of these champions of balance are only interested in the male/female divide. I find that a peculiar fixation.

Furthermore, this approach of staging males as a repressed group requiring affirmative action, in an industry that already overwhelmingly caters to males, can, with justification, be seen as the stagers asserting a privilege. Yes, everyone can have their own opinions. It includes the potential that some of those opinions just aren’t … particularly flattering of their owners.

Aedelric.1287:

Bias exists in the Living Story leads, be that fact or not it is still opinion and everyone is welcome to their own.

It looks like we have been talking past each other. I concern myself predominantly with facts and expect factual-like statements of other persons to be such unless indicated otherwise. Here, you state that you are making the reverse assumption. Very well, that makes this easier.

When you say, “There is a bias in LS leads,” (an objective statement) then what you mean is, “I perceive a bias in LS leads” (a subjective statement). The difference is important. The objective statement can be examined through statistics the way I have explained and be shown to be without merit. The subjective statement, however….

As I explain above, a person who doesn’t have any internal bias doesn’t see a gender bias in LS characters, either. Only a person who has a strong internal bias can see an opposite bias. Thus, your statement, “I perceive a bias in LS leads,” is not indicative of an actual bias in the game, but only a bias in your own point of view.

Raziel.4216:

Ah but you see, if someone claims there’s a bias, they can determine it using basic data analysis. There’s an objetive method that lets you know when a distribution is biased, it is or it isnt, it’s not a matter of opinion.
What do studies using this analysis show us using a large sample? That there’s bias, in the opposite direction.
What else can we tell? That you cant determine if the gender distribution is biased with such a small sample (5 characters).

They are entitled to their opinion, something like “I dont like braham” and we could all argue about why he’s good or bad.
But they’re not entitled to their own facts, stuff like

havoc.6814:

There is a gender bias in the game.

But there is a gender bias in the game. It’s (presumably) not an ideological bias, it’s just a regular bias. A bias from ANet’s writers towards more female main characters than male ones (atleast currently).

Jamais vu.5284:

But there is a gender bias in the game. It’s (presumably) not an ideological bias, it’s just a regular bias. A bias from ANet’s writers towards more female main characters than male ones (atleast currently).

Aaaand we are back to step 1.

Throwing a coin five times and getting one ‘heads’, four ‘tails’, isn’t indicative of bias. It’s just a random sample with a probability (37.5%) that doesn’t even reach the 1-sigma level of statistical significance. If you had thrown the coin ten times without getting a single ‘heads’ then you would have a case. Here, not so much.

In oder to see a bias, you’d have to be used to a crooked coin that comes up ‘heads’ nine times out of ten.

And just for fun, here’s a further explanation for consideration:

You fly to Beijing. The first person you see as you step out of the plane is a man. Based on this, you make the statement, “All Chinese are male.” Is this a valid inference? And if not, why?

Jamais vu.5284:

But there is a gender bias in the game. It’s (presumably) not an ideological bias, it’s just a regular bias. A bias from ANet’s writers towards more female main characters than male ones (atleast currently).

I agree, I would not say it is the end of the world or anything, but it is an obvious oversight by the writers, be it intentional or not it really would be nice to have it fixed. (And by fixed I mean introduce at least one more male hero NPC, preferably not a grunting idiot like Braham.)

Perhaps a new Tengu mini could be a hint towards this? Who knows, I am semi optimistic.

Aedelric.1287:

Perhaps a new Tengu mini could be a hint towards this? Who knows, I am semi optimistic.

What does a Tengu mini have to do with this? I fail to see your logic.

Jamais vu.5284:

Raziel.4216:

Ah but you see, if someone claims there’s a bias, they can determine it using basic data analysis. There’s an objetive method that lets you know when a distribution is biased, it is or it isnt, it’s not a matter of opinion.
What do studies using this analysis show us using a large sample? That there’s bias, in the opposite direction.
What else can we tell? That you cant determine if the gender distribution is biased with such a small sample (5 characters).

They are entitled to their opinion, something like “I dont like braham” and we could all argue about why he’s good or bad.
But they’re not entitled to their own facts, stuff like

havoc.6814:

There is a gender bias in the game.

But there is a gender bias in the game. It’s (presumably) not an ideological bias, it’s just a regular bias. A bias from ANet’s writers towards more female main characters than male ones (atleast currently).

Please provide a sample large enough to beat the problem mentioned in my post.
“there is a gender bias in the game” is a fact, not an opinion, you should be able to provide evidence. Looking forward to it

Raziel.4216:

Please provide a sample large enough to beat the problem mentioned in my post.
“there is a gender bias in the game” is a fact, not an opinion, you should be able to provide evidence. Looking forward to it

tmakinen.1048:

Aaaand we are back to step 1.

Throwing a coin five times and getting one ‘heads’, four ‘tails’, isn’t indicative of bias. It’s just a random sample with a probability (37.5%) that doesn’t even reach the 1-sigma level of statistical significance. If you had thrown the coin ten times without getting a single ‘heads’ then you would have a case. Here, not so much.

In oder to see a bias, you’d have to be used to a crooked coin that comes up ‘heads’ nine times out of ten.

You really don’t get it, do you? There is a major difference between random occurrence and intentional occurrence.

Statistical significance is the probability that an effect is not due to just chance alone. In any instance where the effect is known to not be due to chance, an evaluation of statistical significance is both unnecessary and wrong. You’re example with the coin is absolutely correct, because you are evaluating a random occurrence.

The LS story, however, is not a random occurrence. the main npc’s are not random creations. The story, and the npc’s were intentionally created the way they are. Nobody rolled a die to see whether they would create a female or male character. That decision was an intentional act by a thinking individual. No randomness involved. This is where your reliance upon mathematics fails, and why I have been telling to that the answer is not to be found in mathematics, but in real life experience.

What you are effectively saying is that murderers should not be convicted until they have killed 10 times, because hey, maybe it is just a random occurrence and not intentional. You are failing in the worst possible way.

The characters in the Living Story were intentionally created. Their gender, personality traits, and actions were thought out and planned. The Living story in general was create with forethought and intent. The gender bias which permeates the living story was intentionally created.

The female characters in the Living story are actually well represented in quality as well as quantity. They are shown to be intelligent and thoughtful, decisive and competent. They are likable, well-designed characters. The male characters, however, are reduced to grunting, uttering monosyllabic responses, and whining. They are shown to be stupid, ineffective, and self-serving. They universally have extreme character debilitating issues.

The gender bias in this game actually goes far beyond being a simple bias. It is misandry. Some of the replies from the those in this thread intent on defending the status quo of this game are also extremely misandrous. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

havoc.6814:

The gender bias which permeates the living story was intentionally created.

Hi there, I thought you said you aren’t talking to me any more?

Again, you don’t provide any evidence in support of your claim. Furthermore, you aren’t paying proper attention to the conceptual difference between an author’s intent, the work of the author, and your interpretation of that work. In essence, you have … an opinion. Thank you for making it known.

tmakinen.1048:

havoc.6814:

The gender bias which permeates the living story was intentionally created.

Hi there, I thought you said you aren’t talking to me any more?

Again, you don’t provide any evidence in support of your claim. Furthermore, you aren’t paying proper attention to the conceptual difference between an author’s intent, the work of the author, and your interpretation of that work. In essence, you have … an opinion. Thank you for making it known.

My opinion is also fact. Yes, Opinion can also be fact, which I’m sure you don’t know. Your Mathematics are irrelevant and wrongly applied. I guess that is what happens when you get an online degree and lack the general education that is associated with actual academics.

soaringleaper.7905:

Aedelric.1287:

Perhaps a new Tengu mini could be a hint towards this? Who knows, I am semi optimistic.

What does a Tengu mini have to do with this? I fail to see your logic.

It really doesn’t, it’s just a random remark I think. Tsuru Whitewing is just a NPC character that has yet to exist, but is part of Mini Series 3. Thus potential hope/speculation/etc.

Sera.6539:

soaringleaper.7905:

What does a Tengu mini have to do with this? I fail to see your logic.

It really doesn’t, it’s just a random remark I think. Tsuru Whitewing is just a NPC character that has yet to exist, but is part of Mini Series 3. Thus potential hope/speculation/etc.

It was a casual remark but completely on topic, it is a mini for a currently non-existent npc. A male character that could fill the role that this topic has discussed in great detail, you are completely right though, hope/speculation/etc.

While i generally really appreciate the strong female leads, i too missed a strong male lead, someone like Canach originally was but with appealing looks. Why is it that even like this only the guys get Kasmeer as eyecandy and we go empty.

Leonie.7593:

While i generally really appreciate the strong female leads, i too missed a strong male lead, someone like Canach originally was but with appealing looks. Why is it that even like this only the guys get Kasmeer as eyecandy and we go empty.

They intended Braham to fill that role, but I think they missed the mark with it. Besides not everyone finds dumb grunting muscles guy attractive, even more of a reason to include another male.

Edit – I liked Cannach, his character adds an interesting dynamic, he would do well to become a hero like the rest.

havoc.6814:

You really don’t get it, do you? There is a major difference between random occurrence and intentional occurrence.

Waiting on your evidence (statistical) on that

havoc.6814:

Statistical significance is the probability that an effect is not due to just chance alone.

Waiting on your statistical evidence.

havoc.6814:

In any instance where the effect is known to not be due to chance, an evaluation of statistical significance is both unnecessary and wrong. You’re example with the coin is absolutely correct, because you are evaluating a random occurrence.

Screw decades of research into data distribution, we just know when stuff follows a random distribution or a biased one.

havoc.6814:

The LS story, however, is not a random occurrence. the main npc’s are not random creations. The story, and the npc’s were intentionally created the way they are. Nobody rolled a die to see whether they would create a female or male character. That decision was an intentional act by a thinking individual. No randomness involved. This is where your reliance upon mathematics fails, and why I have been telling to that the answer is not to be found in mathematics, but in real life experience.

Irrelevant, the distribution is either biased or not, doesnt matter if it’s gender, age, how many appels/grapes I got, etc.
Waiting on your evidence there.

havoc.6814:

What you are effectively saying is that murderers should not be convicted until they have killed 10 times, because hey, maybe it is just a random occurrence and not intentional. You are failing in the worst possible way.

Noone said such thing, this is just a dramatic attempt to make your argument more appealing in light of your lack of statistical evidence.
There’re distributions related to murders btw, color/age of the murderer and victim for example. Guess what? These distributions could be biased, in fact, in the US it’s usually biased agaisnt black people.

havoc.6814:

The characters in the Living Story were intentionally created. Their gender, personality traits, and actions were thought out and planned. The Living story in general was create with forethought and intent. The gender bias which permeates the living story was intentionally created.

Still irrelevant, you either have evidence of a biased distribution or you dont. Planned actions are not evidence.

havoc.6814:

The female characters in the Living story are actually well represented in quality as well as quantity. They are shown to be intelligent and thoughtful, decisive and competent. They are likable, well-designed characters. The male characters, however, are reduced to grunting, uttering monosyllabic responses, and whining. They are shown to be stupid, ineffective, and self-serving. They universally have extreme character debilitating issues.

Opinion, not fact. I like braham.

havoc.6814:

The gender bias in this game actually goes far beyond being a simple bias. It is misandry. Some of the replies from the those in this thread intent on defending the status quo of this game are also extremely misandrous. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

To sum up what you just said in your entire post
My distribution is special, it doesnt require evidence. It’s special because anet made the game and because of my opinion.
Well a lot of people made the 490 characters used in the study linked a bunch of times in this topic, we know it’s biased because of statistical analysis, not because “it’s special” or “someone made those characters intentionally”
This is known as the special pleading fallacy, when a position cant hold it’s ground due to lack of consistency or evidence it’s magically turned into something special, out of the usual bounderies -all distributions are bound to the same rules- to avoid being called out.

havoc.6814:

tmakinen.1048:

havoc.6814:

The gender bias which permeates the living story was intentionally created.

Hi there, I thought you said you aren’t talking to me any more?

Again, you don’t provide any evidence in support of your claim. Furthermore, you aren’t paying proper attention to the conceptual difference between an author’s intent, the work of the author, and your interpretation of that work. In essence, you have … an opinion. Thank you for making it known.

My opinion is also fact. Yes, Opinion can also be fact, which I’m sure you don’t know. Your Mathematics are irrelevant and wrongly applied. I guess that is what happens when you get an online degree and lack the general education that is associated with actual academics.

Your post sounds like a desperate attempt to make him look back for, you know, using statistical analysis on a distribution to determine if it’s biased, this is first semester stuff.
Somehow this distribution is special, it’s inmune to statistics, sample size is irrelevant and there’s no rejection zone.
Might want to avoid the topic if you’re not qualified for it, ALL distributions can be biased or not, this one isnt and that’s a fact, not an opinion (demonstrated in a previous post, read b4 replying).

Also
Opinion:
1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: “The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” (Elizabeth Drew).
2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
4. The prevailing view: public opinion.

Fact:
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.

No, they’re not the same.

Trollhammer.7439:

then use it as a guise for plain old dongle envy.

Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you make comments like this?

Leshain.6720:

Oi’ people keep talking about the whole “relationships” deal going on in season 1 with the two human female characters going all kissy face on each otha’.

I couldn’t find a topic on this, but i have to say, the writers at arena net so far have been extremely biased when it comes to story character screen time from season 1.

But the real issue, in my opinion, (from a balanced cast of major characters perspective) is the lack of focus on major kitten male characters, mainly human.

Example for Season 1:
(Marj, Kas, Rox, Taimi, Scarlet, Mai Trin, Ellen Kiel, Turma > Braham, Captain Magnus, Evon, Canach)

I most likely missed some on both gender sides but I’m pretty sure i ain’t far off target. That is 8 to 4, literally double the amount of female focus to males.

I would have enjoyed it more if there were at least “SOME” strong male leads, there is none. Logan is stupid and has lady issues, Braham has mommy issues and eats too much ham, Lord Faren is the fool of tyria, Canach was on the right track since he was actually a loose cannon kitten at first but the writers nerfed him right at the ending in terms of personality.

Jus’ sayin it kinda ruined the experience for me, nothin wrong with a strong cool female character, but kitten mang balance the scales for season 2 please.

Pick any lad from this wallpaper and it’ll be all gewd.

I agree 100%. This has really bugged me about this game.

I am glad to see strong female characters but as a guy it gets old not having enough representation of my gender in this game. It just makes me want to invest less into the overall story.

Prophet.6257:

I agree 100%. This has really bugged me about this game.

I am glad to see strong female characters but as a guy it gets old not having enough representation of my gender in this game. It just makes me want to invest less into the overall story.

Isn’t that truth. As a female I have felt exactly the same thing about every game so far I’ve seen. All the main, important figures are male with a token female thrown in, who is usually inept and ditzy.

I feel your pain.

Astral Projections.7320:

Prophet.6257:

I agree 100%. This has really bugged me about this game.

I am glad to see strong female characters but as a guy it gets old not having enough representation of my gender in this game. It just makes me want to invest less into the overall story.

Isn’t that truth. As a female I have felt exactly the same thing about every game so far I’ve seen. All the main, important figures are male with a token female thrown in, who is usually inept and ditzy.

I feel your pain.

Very true. One thing Anet has done well is counter that and hopefully they continue to do so. I also hope (selfishly) they add more strong male leads in this game. I think Anet definitely has the ability to keep multiple leads going at once.

Particularly an MMO is well equipped to handle diversity. Hopefully in Season 2 we see a more balanced approach.

Astral Projections.7320:

Prophet.6257:

I agree 100%. This has really bugged me about this game.

I am glad to see strong female characters but as a guy it gets old not having enough representation of my gender in this game. It just makes me want to invest less into the overall story.

Isn’t that truth. As a female I have felt exactly the same thing about every game so far I’ve seen. All the main, important figures are male with a token female thrown in, who is usually inept and ditzy.

I feel your pain.

I agree with you both, which is why we should have a more even representation on both sides, with enough characters and diverse personalities so that everyone can find someone they at least partially relate to or generally just find likable. (Men and women alike)

Aedelric.1287:

Astral Projections.7320:

Prophet.6257:

I agree 100%. This has really bugged me about this game.

I am glad to see strong female characters but as a guy it gets old not having enough representation of my gender in this game. It just makes me want to invest less into the overall story.

Isn’t that truth. As a female I have felt exactly the same thing about every game so far I’ve seen. All the main, important figures are male with a token female thrown in, who is usually inept and ditzy.

I feel your pain.

I agree with you both, which is why we should have a more even representation on both sides, with enough characters and diverse personalities so that everyone can find someone they at least partially relate to or generally just find likable. (Men and women alike)

Not all pain is bad. Sometimes feeling for yourself what others have gone through is what gives you true compassion. Women have had years of nonrepresentation or token representation in many games, with the female being stupid or ditzy, a helpless girl who must always be rescued or someone whose main task is to stand around scantily clad. Maybe it’s a good thing that guys have a couple of months to feel discomfort about being treated the same way. As they say, the shoe pinches when it’s on the other foot, and here the guys are feeing the pinch. Maybe next time that they buy and play a game where it’s 4 guys and the token girl they will remember this feeling, go on the forum and say, “we want more strong female characters”!

Astral Projections.7320:

Not all pain is bad. Sometimes feeling for yourself what others have gone through is what gives you true compassion. Women have had years of nonrepresentation or token representation in many games, with the female being stupid or ditzy, a helpless girl who must always be rescued or someone whose main task is to stand around scantily clad. Maybe it’s a good thing that guys have a couple of months to feel discomfort about being treated the same way. As they say, the shoe pinches when it’s on the other foot, and here the guys are feeing the pinch. Maybe next time that they buy and play a game where it’s 4 guys and the token girl they will remember this feeling, go on the forum and say, “we want more strong female characters”!

Well, Marjory was the helpless dame in the final fight and Kas has always been the ditzy scantily clad female character, Southsun is a fine example of this. I would not say the female leads are truly ground breaking, those two were designed for sex appeal I remember the posts people made saying Marjory is so `hot´ when she was first revealed. Even young Taimi herself is almost disgustingly cute for an Asura, Rox is the most feminine Charr I have ever seen (Creepy eyes though).

I am not saying you are wrong, that women can not take the limelight, they can and can continue for all I mind. But that does not mean we should not get another male lead as even then it is still four to two. Anyway, it has been quite a few months now and it is obviously starting to pinch a number of people, myself included, so mission accomplished.

I just want to say this bit is not entirely unrelated to what you said, but it is mostly directed to others who post. People do like eye candy in games as evident but as pointed out by Leonie heterosexual women and homosexual men also also deserve some eye candy, big dumb Braham is not everyone’s cup of tea. It may not be my own personal cause of including a new male lead, but the arguments people have against including another does not address this issue, if anything telling someone they are not allowed because `mathematics/analytical papers say so´ is quite inconsiderate.

Aedelric.1287:

I just want to say this bit is not entirely unrelated to what you said, but it is mostly directed to others who post. People do like eye candy in games as evident but as pointed out by Leonie heterosexual women and homosexual men also also deserve some eye candy, big dumb Braham is not everyone’s cup of tea. It may not be my own personal cause of including a new male lead, but the arguments people have against including another does not address this issue, if anything telling someone they are not allowed because `mathematics/analytical papers say so´ is quite inconsiderate.

Noone said some eye candy is wrong.
However, when the majority of female characters is eye candy we have a problem.
Saying “I would like a character I could relate to” is perfectly fine, that’s your opinion, the mathematics served to determine if there’s bias in the distribution of gender and there isnt.
Not only there isnt in this game, but the industry is greatly biased in the opposite direction.
Using statistics for what they were made is not inconsiderate. Once again, you’re entitled to your opinion, not your facts.

The tone of some of the comments in this, and similar threads, has brought to mind an account I read in a book about the first Star Trek and the people in it.

Star Trek was one of the first tv programs to have black people starring in it as regulars and not cameo roles. Previously to these shows, black people had stock roles in film as comedy relief, Step and Fetchit for example, not serious roles showing them as real people. They commonly were portrayed as ignorant and foolish.

The story I am thinking of concerned Uhuru. They received a fan letter for her and in it the writer praised her for being a good actress and had several other nice things to say about her. At the end though, he confessed that seeing black people on tv made him uncomfortable and he requested that she be removed from the show and a white person put in her place.

So how does this story relate to this thread? Suppose there was a story line with 4 black people and one white person, who wasn’t an intellectual giant, and there was a thread saying, I can’t relate to black people, they have to be white for me to relate to a story told by them. Next story line, please put in more white people. Also, make sure the white people are smarter, better, stronger than the one you have now.

I’m sure the people who are saying they are uncomfortable with so many women and who have trouble relating to them are perfectly sincere, but sexism and racism have some things in common, which they might wish to keep in mind. Women, like black people, are underrepresented in games and other places and when they are present they, like black people were, are often given caricature stock roles. When I as a woman, hear a man say that he can’t relate to a story having so many women and please give us more men, it does sound a bit like the “fan” writer asking for fewer scenes with Uhuru and more with white people.

Astral Projections.7320:

The tone of some of the comments in this, and similar threads, has brought to mind an account I read in a book about the first Star Trek and the people in it.

Star Trek was one of the first tv programs to have black people starring in it as regulars and not cameo roles. Previously to these shows, black people had stock roles in film as comedy relief, Step and Fetchit for example, not serious roles showing them as real people. They commonly were portrayed as ignorant and foolish.

The story I am thinking of concerned Uhuru. They received a fan letter for her and in it the writer praised her for being a good actress and had several other nice things to say about her. At the end though, he confessed that seeing black people on tv made him uncomfortable and he requested that she be removed from the show and a white person put in her place.

So how does this story relate to this thread? Suppose there was a story line with 4 black people and one white person, who wasn’t an intellectual giant, and there was a thread saying, I can’t relate to black people, they have to be white for me to relate to a story told by them. Next story line, please put in more white people. Also, make sure the white people are smarter, better, stronger than the one you have now.

I’m sure the people who are saying they are uncomfortable with so many women and who have trouble relating to them are perfectly sincere, but sexism and racism have some things in common, which they might wish to keep in mind. Women, like black people, are underrepresented in games and other places and when they are present they, like black people were, are often given caricature stock roles. When I as a woman, hear a man say that he can’t relate to a story having so many women and please give us more men, it does sound a bit like the “fan” writer asking for fewer scenes with Uhuru and more with white people.

Ahem Are you implying that any attempt to ask for additional well designed males in the current line-up should be construed as an act of sexism? I advise you to word your response very carefully.