Guild Wars 2

After seeing the Alchemy cutscene I think there are actualy seven dragons. Pale Tree is the 7th.

From the cutscene or they compete over the center spot like a king of the hill game or… more likely Pale Tree is a beast with 6 stomacs and is time for feeding. He just activate a power like you socket a weapon.
As far that I remember the way Pale Tree defeat the dragons is by spawning more and more sylvary until dragons are overwhelm by them.
Yea I know, 6 dragons, 6 gods… one tree?
“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist” or in our case is not a dragon

Would be a bit weird to have two Dragons with very similar powers (both Mordy and Tree have powers connected to plants and nature.)

I think that the Pale Tree is most tied to Tyria, due to her roots on the ground.

Mordremoth targeting her could be the original plan, Sylvari and their trees being Mordremoth’s tools, to get much deeper into touch of Tyria, for the magical energy.

One reason why Pale Tree has such huge role.

I don’t think the Pale Tree is a dragon. I had, had the thought that perhaps she is somehow the physical manifestation of the ‘spirit’ of Tyria. The world’s avatar, so to speak.Similar to the gods’ avatars in GW1. It would explain a lot of things.

The concern here, is that there are likely to be other trees out there. It’s basically flat out stated that there are others, since we encounter sylvari not of the Pale Tree in the sylvari storyline.

We could assume that the Pale Tree is unique, due to the influences of Ronin and Ventari. But, the issue I have here is that this other sylvari is also humanoid in form. According to the lore set forth by Ree and Kristin, the sylvari of the Pale Tree have humanoid form due to the influence of Ronin. Sure that was back in 2011, but it just seems a bit out of place that this other non Pale Tree sylvari was also coincidentally humanoid as well. It sort of pokes a hole in the established lore.

Of course, if by some chance, that is what the Pale Tree is, why would she want the dragons destroyed. They seem to be portrayed as a natural part of the world, part of the balance that has existed since forever.

My guess is, the Pale Tree was supposed to be one of Mordremoth’s minion breeding machines.

The seed that Ventari and Ronan planted was one of many, found in a cave, protected by powerful plant creatures. What if those seeds were to be planted when Mordremoth’s next rising was nigh, so the resulting trees could bear fruit to create swarms of plant minions. The vision we witnessed with the Pale Tree at the center of it all may imply that she was planted at the most powerful ley line hub of them all, corresponding to the center of the Eternal Alchemy, or at least the point in Tyria that corresponds with that center. Not nourished by Mordremoth’s corruption, but the more wholesome energies that flow through the world, she spawned a pure race instead of dragon minions.

If the seeds were indeed meant to grow into minion-bearing trees, we might eventually encounter evil trees while we march on Mordremoth. Sounds like fun.

I’d tossed around that theory as well Manasa. To me, it’s not any more of less plausible, although I’ve had my butt chewed several times for suggestiong that the Pale Tree could be a jungle dragon minion / champ. It could go either way based on the limited information we have at this time.

If there is a 7th dragon then the center orb is most likely the Original Elder Dragon that existed before the 6 Elder Dragons were created.

Most likely the Original Elder Dragon died long ago before GW history and the result of the death created the 6 Elder Dragons and the spread of magic energy which started the age where Magic existed in the World of GW.

However, this is just my hypothesis so not much to go on until the actual lore is revealed over time.

The Orb entering the Center representing Mordremoth may be a way to tell us that each Elder Dragon are fighting over the empty spot the Original Elder Dragon left when it death created the 6 Elder Dragons in hopes of become the new Original Elder Dragon.

This would make sense since we also originally had 7 human gods!!!

Dwayna, god of healing and air. = Tyria.
Dhuum, god of death. = Zhaitan.
Grenth, god of ice = Jormag.
Lyssa, god of illusions = Kralkatorik.
Balthazar, god of war and fire. = Primodus.
Melandru, god of nature = Mordremoth.
Abbadon, god of water (aka. komir). = Bubbles (aka. deep sea dragon)

We intend to forget about Dhuum the god of death, though he is also a god in tyria, he is just not as famous as the other gods since the humans did not pray to him.
Also dwayna is mother to grenth, she is proberly one of the oldest gods therefore she is tyria.

Or a down to earth explanation is Sylvari is ANet child, they “invented” the plant race non like any other race in mmos (something like that)

And now they milking it, making them the center of everything, the chosen – Terhehehehe, the rebel – Canach, the super villain – Scarlet and now the …. – (Pale Tree). Whatever …. will turn out to be :p

So of couse Pale Tree is in the center of the univers/eternal alchemy, wierd all this eternity of the universe/alchemy existence, 25 years ago Pale Tree pop in to existence and now is the center of the kitten universe.

aham, bs :p

As far as we know, there are only six dragons.

So far, there is no solid evidence to suggest the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, and there have been many threads pointing out why it isn’t likely. If anything, Mordremoth has a connection to/via the Nightmare (implied by the thorn wolves/husks being very similar to Nightmare hounds and summoned husks), but not the Pale Tree/sylvari, outside of being plantlike as they are.

As for the Eternal Alchemy/Tree connection, I admittedly can’t say anything conclusive about that. I find it rather hard to believe that a tree that sprouted only 25 years ago (granted, it was around longer than that, but only much later did it finally bear fruit) is suddenly somehow a key to the understanding of Tyria’s inner workings.

This all seems to come back to the mystery of where the Pale Tree’s seed came from, and what it was meant for. Hopefully, as we progress further into the Maguuma, we may yet come across the one other tree we know to have spawned, and maybe find some clue to the Trees’ origins.

Manasa Devi.7958:

My guess is, the Pale Tree was supposed to be one of Mordremoth’s minion breeding machines.

I don’t think so. The Pale Tree is being elevated to a level of global mechanism. If the Pale Tree was only a champion then she wouldn’t feature so prominently (or at least she and the dragons are being hinted to as being some crucial component of the workings of Tyria).

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d tossed around that theory as well Manasa. To me, it’s not any more of less plausible, although I’ve had my butt chewed several times for suggestiong that the Pale Tree could be a jungle dragon minion / champ. It could go either way based on the limited information we have at this time.

Possible, sure. Although she’d have to be one very special champion. The diagram didn’t show Tequatl, Claw or Shatterer.

spiritus.7983:

And now they milking it, making them the center of everything, the chosen – Terhehehehe, the rebel – Canach, the super villain – Scarlet and now the …. – (Pale Tree). Whatever …. will turn out to be :p

Yeah, I don’t want to say it, but I’m getting the same feeling here :P

Sylvari are getting a whole lot of loving. Although hopefully Anet will give us some Norn come Jormag, some Charr come Kralkatorik, some Asura come Primodus, and humans… well they already had GW1, maybe give them bubbles?

Nilkemia.8507:

As for the Eternal Alchemy/Tree connection, I admittedly can’t say anything conclusive about that. I find it rather hard to believe that a tree that sprouted only 25 years ago (granted, it was around longer than that, but only much later did it finally bear fruit) is suddenly somehow a key to the understanding of Tyria’s inner workings.

This is were it gets a little tricky. I don’t have a problem with the current LW bending heavily towards Sylvari, but I do hope ANet doesn’t turn the Pale Tree into some… dare I say it… Mary Sue. Well as long as the Pale Tree doesn’t become some god like thing, the ultimate answer to all etc. etc.

CureForLiving.5360:

Manasa Devi.7958:

My guess is, the Pale Tree was supposed to be one of Mordremoth’s minion breeding machines.

I don’t think so. The Pale Tree is being elevated to a level of global mechanism. If the Pale Tree was only a champion then she wouldn’t feature so prominently (or at least she and the dragons are being hinted to as being some crucial component of the workings of Tyria).

The rest of my post (the part you didn’t quote) explains how she might have become a ‘global mechanism’. The Eternal Alchemy existed before her, yet she appeared to be at he center of it. It wouldn’t be inconceivable that the location where she was planted elevated her to a higher state of being. There were many seeds like the one she grew from, which suggests that that what makes her special wasn’t an inherent quality but a result of circumstance. Being planted at the heart of the world might qualify as such Also, I never stated she was a champion, I suggested she might have been supposed to become one, but turned out quite different.

As for the Eternal Alchemy/Tree connection, I admittedly can’t say anything conclusive about that. I find it rather hard to believe that a tree that sprouted only 25 years ago (granted, it was around longer than that, but only much later did it finally bear fruit) is suddenly somehow a key to the understanding of Tyria’s inner workings.

Well, if she was planted at the heart of the Eternal Alchemy, she might have been infused with some major importance.

CureForLiving.5360:

This is were it gets a little tricky. I don’t have a problem with the current LW bending heavily towards Sylvari, but I do hope ANet doesn’t turn the Pale Tree into some… dare I say it… Mary Sue. Well as long as the Pale Tree doesn’t become some god like thing, the ultimate answer to all etc. etc.

Mary Sue? How about straight-up goddess? She gave birth to a self-aware race of beings, a feat that’s usually performed by divine beings.

Suchface.3265:

This would make sense since we also originally had 7 human gods!!!

Dwayna, god of healing and air. = Tyria.
Dhuum, god of death. = Zhaitan.
Grenth, god of ice = Jormag.
Lyssa, god of illusions = Kralkatorik.
Balthazar, god of war and fire. = Primodus.
Melandru, god of nature = Mordremoth.
Abbadon, god of water (aka. komir). = Bubbles (aka. deep sea dragon)

We intend to forget about Dhuum the god of death, though he is also a god in tyria, he is just not as famous as the other gods since the humans did not pray to him.
Also dwayna is mother to grenth, she is proberly one of the oldest gods therefore she is tyria.

Actually Grenth is the current God of death as far as we know. Dhuum was overthrown by Grenth. So there weren’t 7 original gods cause they never existed at the same time and due to the fact that Grenth overthrown Dhuum and Kormir absorbed Abbadon’s power after he was killed.

The central Orb could embody an Elder Dragon of Light….

Everyone takes it for granted that it’s the Pale Tree’s voice Scarlet heard and that the Pale Tree has an avatar…..

What if these are all illusions?

What if an Elder Dragon corrupted the Pale Tree and is passing itself off as said Pale Tree?

What if it turned a random Sylvari into it’s avatar or should I say Dragon Champion to further the illusion?…..

Kralkatorik is Air not Chaos judging from the crystals made from his Dragon Champion Glint’s flesh…

The tree (and those like it) came from a seed. A better question is where the seed came from.

PopeUrban.2578:

The tree (and those like it) came from a seed. A better question is where the seed came from.

Putting my bets on Mord.

His “Keepers” that simply didn’t answer the call which would mean that Mord woke up late rather than what was assumed to be 7 years early.

The reason why the pale tree is in there, might simply be because ‘she’ feeds on the magic of the Ley Lines. She is a conscious being, and her roots have obviously found the ley lines as well.

When ‘you’ speculatively tap into the ley lines magic, you come across her, as she senses you with her roots. Only by moving past her ‘interference’ you get to what the vision would show if there was no Pale Tree…

There is one ‘but’, and that is if the tree in the vision isn’t actually the pale tree, but the ‘tree of life’ in general. A well known representation of all the live in any place, which might be ‘why’ all races see the same tree there. The pale tree might be the voice, as she herself might find a strong relation/connection with the actual tree of life. She then guards the ‘way of life’ in a similar fashion that a non sentient ‘merely representative’ tree of life would do… or at least, what the pale tree thinks that tree would do, due to her foundations through Ventauri…

Omad’s machine strongly implied Mordremoth was attacking the centre sphere. How does that fit if it’s a seventh dragon?

Well, you do not see whether or if the white orb is ejected on the other side. We see one of the sphere’s allegedly representing the Dragons, ‘taking center stage’ (literally). We do not know what that means…

For all we know it could also mean the death of Zaithan, we killed him… and the order of life as represented by the tree, means that dead things return to ‘the tree’ in order to create new life (the age old ‘circle of life, represented by the tree thing). But seeing that Zaithan represented a ’kitten’ load of magic, of a certain type. His death could have a HUGE impact on the balance of magic. All of a sudden all the combined and gathered undead magic, that was still stored in Zaithan and all that he consumed. is released at once… flooding ‘the magical plane’ with un-dead magic…

I mean, I haven’t read that option just yet, but it is certainly a possibility… What does that mean? I dunno? Perhaps the true Zombie Apocalypse is upon us?

Just wanted to leave this here.

(Might not be the best quality as I tried to make this graphic really fast but oh well.)

Terrifying thought:

What if the center orb is us, and the breaking orb is zhaitan?

We killed zhaitan, and if his essence had to go somewhere, it would make sense that it went in to beings nearby, namely ourselves and destiny’s edge.

Not a lot to support this interpretation, but it would certainly make for an interesting story. Us having plot armor would probably be somehow stabalized by a taimi invention, but we’d have to confront DE who may have been undermining the foundations of the five races, and defeat their dragon-amped selves to save them from it, and we, DE, and the biconics all merrily march on Mordy alone with our dragon-power, because he already dismantled the pact while we were dealing with all that.

Then we’d probably seal the whole bit in a bloodstone or magic doohickey at the end, and use that as the defacto place to put defeated dragons so that we wouldn’t get to keep the awesome power that let like 9 people take down a dragon.

Then, of course, after we put all the dragons in doohickeys someone shows up to try and steal them/use them for evil, like the white mantle or that jerk in the floating tower.

Okay, for the love of, please read the lore if you’re going to say there are seven human gods.

There are actually EIGHT, Human Gods, including Menzies the Mad.

Abbadon, Dhuum, Menzies

There’s also Abbadon’s Predecessor, whom we do not know the name of, thus there are Nine, and the Arachnid God that came before them, thus that makes TEN.

The number of gods makes “very” little difference in the retrospect of things so the “seven dragons/seven gods” theory is bunk, sorry.

I’m not trying to crush speculation so much as put it in perspective, if you really want to speculate, stop using the six (and more) gods as a means to point out a link between two convinces.

Before you ask where I got that information:

There is a predecessor to Abbadon, the Realm of Torment “was” theirs, we do not know their name though but its possible they were a human god as well.

And before that predecessor there was an Arachnid, like an insect god, that ruled over that domain (implied to be Arachnia).

Either way, there’s too many variables to definitely say that the six gods and six dragons are the only connection.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Okay, for the love of, please read the lore if you’re going to say there are seven human gods.

There are actually EIGHT, Human Gods, including Menzies the Mad.

Abbadon, Dhuum, Menzies

There’s also Abbadon’s Predecessor, whom we do not know the name of, thus there are Nine, and the Arachnid God that came before them, thus that makes TEN.

The number of gods makes “very” little difference in the retrospect of things so the “seven dragons/seven gods” theory is bunk, sorry.

I’m not trying to crush speculation so much as put it in perspective, if you really want to speculate, stop using the six (and more) gods as a means to point out a link between two convinces.

Before you ask where I got that information:

There is a predecessor to Abbadon, the Realm of Torment “was” theirs, we do not know their name though but its possible they were a human god as well.

And before that predecessor there was an Arachnid, like an insect god, that ruled over that domain (implied to be Arachnia).

Either way, there’s too many variables to definitely say that the six gods and six dragons are the only connection.

False. There are six. Menzies was not a god, as “god” is a position, not a race. In fact, menzies waged war against Balthazar specifically because he was not a god and wanted to become one, by getting rid of the current god. The reverse is true of Dhuum. Dhuum was a god, and Grenth was not, until Grenth usurped Dhuum.

Also, there are not seven possible gods either. Balthazar is seen carrying the head of his father (Whom we assume this to have filled the position of god before balthazar killed him) and Menzies was his half brother which indicates at least two other of their race (the mothers of Balthazar and menzies)

Also note that being born to that race isn’t actually necessary to become a god, as evidenced by kormir (a human) ascending to godhood by taking the power of Abbaddon. In fact, all the evidence we have points to pretty much all of the gods having probably been lesser beings before they became gods.

The term “god” as we use when discussing the human gods indicates six powers or energies which have changed ownership multiple times throughout history, and will continue to do so, and as far as we know could be transferable to almost any being. The human gods are simply the current rulers of the dominions of various powerful magical energies, and those energies, raw forces of magic, are without a mind or voice of their own.

So, basically, they’re not “gods” but simply so powerful that (some) humans worship them as such, much the same as the Charr once worshiped the titans.

Suchface.3265:

This would make sense since we also originally had 7 human gods!!!

Dwayna, god of healing and air. = Tyria.
Dhuum, god of death. = Zhaitan.
Grenth, god of ice = Jormag.
Lyssa, god of illusions = Kralkatorik.
Balthazar, god of war and fire. = Primodus.
Melandru, god of nature = Mordremoth.
Abbadon, god of water (aka. komir). = Bubbles (aka. deep sea dragon)

We intend to forget about Dhuum the god of death, though he is also a god in tyria, he is just not as famous as the other gods since the humans did not pray to him.
Also dwayna is mother to grenth, she is proberly one of the oldest gods therefore she is tyria.

Problem is that Dhuum was de-throned by Grenth, so he has no place amongst the 6 human gods…

about DHUUM … won’t quote the two above here that seem to misinterpret the whole underworld god thing. But here it goes:

A. Dhuum was never usurped !! Please for the love of Grenth, check his lore !! He was merely ‘put on ice’ by Grenth (nice intended pun there) and in his prison he was being as unhappy and godly as ever, growing in power with ever dead entity entering the underworld.

B. Dhuum was ‘thus’ never de-throned, in a sense that Dhuum no longer had Godlike power. No, all that happened was that Grenth TOOK his throne, and Dhuum could no longer sit on it. He (Grenth) is mentioned as the ‘god’ of the underworld, but if you look at the lore that constitutes more as ‘The ruler over the underworld’. In lore he was favoured over Dhuum for his more relaxed rules regarding death and entry of mortals into the underworld (largely by ecto farmers I would add for a casual )

- So I’m going to have to agree largely with CaptainVanguard here, in regards to the amount of Gods. And yes, Menzies belongs there too, be it that he is a lesser (known) god, but he still manages to live on as long as the others, and is able to amass an army (of shadows) to fight Baltazar. What other being than a good would be capable of that…

I do not agree with CptVanguard, where it concerns the amount of Gods. If one god replaces another, than by all means it represents the same ‘God power’. So in that sense I agree with PopeUrban, YET, I am going to have to disagree with the amount of ‘god powers’ there are, as can be seen throughout the history of the gods, these powers can split up. I think this may be what happened in the case of Menzies and Baltazar, they both went in for the grab, and they both got a piece of ‘the Action’.

Same goes with Kormir, she only usurps the ‘Secret part of Abaddon’, the Water part, well that is somewhat shoved under the carpet, and eventually ended up with Lyss and Ilsa mainly due to their importance to Vabbi. When this happened though is entirely unclear, but seeing Kormir didn’t get it, where it went was then ‘corrected’ after the fact…

So why do we only see 6 orbs, because that is the current natural order of magic on Tyria, as you look at that vision you can clearly see that there are ‘breakdown – levels’ signified in the whole mechanism. Which clarifies why (in the natural order after the dragons, or at least when ‘the Human Gods’ existed), there were other possible breakdowns of these ‘plains/domains of magic’. And thus, ‘no’ PopeUrban, you can pray to the Human gods all you want, they are gone-gone, and no longer answer any human prayers.

And it’s mostly this ‘breakdown’ during God-times, and the Natural order of Magic on Tyria during the times that the Dragons roam, that makes it impossible to link all the Dragons directly to the Gods. The other way around though?

I think then it is in EotN that the Facets of the Gods appear as Dragons, which makes this even more complicated. Because yes, it still implies that the ‘God powers’ are still related to the ‘Dragon Powers’. But we can not see if f/e if when you slay the Aspect of Grenth, you slay a ‘facet’ that is related to the God of Ice (being a Jormag power) or the God of ‘The underworld’ (death/undeath , being more of a Zhaitan power). If you catch my gist here…

What the facets of the Gods, appearing as Dragons, seems to indicate more, is that the gods are no longer present, instead of appealing to the friendly gods, you are confronted with hostile dragons. In the end the riddle then basically tells us: be wary, in a not to far in the future time you will confront these!

I’m in the camp that believes the Pale Tree is connected to Mordremoth specifically (and that her prominence in this story is simply because Mordremoth is going to attempt to kill her), and she’s not any sort of central force connecting the six dragons.

I believe the answer is that the orb in the center represents Tyria, with the implication that the dragons are connected to Tyria in some primal manner. Consider Ogden’s words from one of Scarlet’s books: “Dragons have long been thought to be as much a part of Tyria as the sun, moon, land, and seas.” And according to Omadd we’re seeing a vision of the Eternal Alchemy, i.e. the underlying structure of all existence.

I’ve tried matching up the human gods to the Elder Dragons before, and it doesn’t really fit- Grenth (god of death and ice) could match to either Jormag or Zhaitan, and there aren’t really any strong arguments for Kralkatorrik and Lyssa other than their magic are both purple. Besides, it’s been fairly well-established that the dragons are far more ancient and powerful than mere gods.

Some further thoughts on the cutscene… The orbs ignite in the following order: Red, blue, white, green, purple, yellow. This correlates with the order the dragons awoke in, and their thematic colors: Primordus, Bubbles (whose time of awakening has been unknown til now), Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, and Mordremoth. (Z and M are black and green in the Crucible, but I’m willing to make the stretch.)

However, if you watch the orbs closely, it’s not Mordremoth’s yellow orb that crashes into the central orb as one might assume, but Zhaitan’s green orb. The obvious interpretation is that the event represents Zhaitan’s recent death. If that’s the case, and if the central orb truly represents Tyria, then it’s possible that slaying dragons damages Tyria.

That leads into speculation that if Tyria is a living organism, then the ley lines are its veins, magic is its life blood, and the dragons are just keeping the planet alive, but so far there’s too little evidence for that for my taste.

So what it comes down to, somewhat, is figuring out (independently from the Gods) what the powers of the Dragons are. We can then put that list next to what the Gods powers are, and see how certain dragon powers break down into god powers.

f.e. Not truly intended as being the right breakdown from the get go, but still ‘my thought’.

Left side of the ‘whatyamacallit’ ‘all dragons seem to create their minions’

Bubbles: Dragon of Water, and ??? ‘creates’
-> Lyssa / Abaddon: God of Water

Mordremoth: Dragon of Plants (‘nature’), and ??? ‘creates’
-> Melandru: God of Nature

Primordus: Dragon of Fire and Earth ‘creates’
-> Baltazar: God of Fire
-> Melandru: God of Earth.

Right side of the ‘whatyamacallit’ ‘all dragons seem to corrupt already living things’

Kralkatorrik: Dragon of Crystal (I find this one the hardest to describe). ‘corrupts’
-> Lyssa: God of Illusions or that of Beauty? -> ‘energy storage’
-> Dwayna: God of Air.

Zhaitan: Dragon of Un-dead (and possibly of dead-dead) ‘corrupts’
-> Grenth: God of the not so dead, aka. Un-dead
-> Dhuum: God of the Dead (void)

Jormag: Dragon of Ice (and ???) ‘corrupts’
-> Grenth: God of Ice

ADD! I have backfilled this by looking at the Gods and their profession patronages to see if they make sense for certain dragons. Well that only made sense to add ‘Energy storage’ to Lyssa where it concerns kralkatorrik, seeing that crystals are renounced for their storage…

What do I ‘sort off’ mis?
- Protection & Smiting – God Baltazar -> Dragon ?!?
- Divine Favor & Healing – God Dwayna -> Dragon ?
- ‘Shadows’ – God Menzies -> Dragon ?
- Illusions – God Lyssa -> Dragon ???

What might be a more general ‘quality’:
- God of Life – Dwayna -> Creating Dragons
- God of Undead – Grenth/Dhuum(?) -> Corrupting Dragons

add I have not played and extensively viewed the GW2 professions, and their ‘power descriptions’ so I leave them out for someone else…

So then is this supposed to be the Sylvari dreaming about Mordremoth trying to control them?

@Quells, seems very much to be the case

For the millionth time, that is Zhaitan.

Arghore.8340:

B. Dhuum was ‘thus’ never de-throned, in a sense that Dhuum no longer had Godlike power. No, all that happened was that Grenth TOOK his throne, and Dhuum could no longer sit on it. He (Grenth) is mentioned as the ‘god’ of the underworld, but if you look at the lore that constitutes more as ‘The ruler over the underworld’. In lore he was favoured over Dhuum for his more relaxed rules regarding death and entry of mortals into the underworld (largely by ecto farmers I would add for a casual )

You’re still not getting it though, in the example of dhuum, he’s not a “god” any more, as that position is an honorific title which carries with it certain priveledges of office.

Think of the title of “god” being like a throne, and the powers associated with it being like symbols of office. There are only six thrones, but from time to time the symbols of office have changed hands (water aspect being a good example)

The example of kormir and much of the history of the gods indicates that being a member of a certain race isn’t a qualifier for being a god. Dhuum isn’t still a god, he’s just whatever he was before he became one, or would have been had he not been imbued with that office at the time of his creation/ascension/birth.

Not only that, we only have most of the history of these beings from the perspective of humans, who were coerced in to worshipping them. We don’t have any really objective perspectives about whatever societies or cultures they may have come from, and it’s entirely possible that they weren’t all from the same culture, or even the same plane in the mists.

The oldest accounts tell us they travelled to tyria as a group through the mists, and the mists is essentially the “outer outer space” of the GW2 cosmos, the place and stuff between all of the planes/dimensions of reality, that is the basic building material for all of them. They were never said to be formed of the mists themselves but to have traveled through them, which means, logically, they came from somewhere else.

In truth, the six humans gods as we know them could have all come from very different places, races, and planes, and in effect have been the earliest known example of an adventuring party. We can’t know the specifics because they either aren’t comprehensible to humans, or humans have been made to believe that they are not. We don’t know what they look like, or if they even have corporeal appearances as all renderings of them are of humanized aspects and interpretations.

Wanderer.3248:

For the millionth time, that is Zhaitan.

No it’s not. It’s got branches and roots all over it and it’s using the generic Tequatl model. But if the plants are to symbolize anything, it has nothing to do with Risen.

FrostSpectre.4198:

I think that the Pale Tree is most tied to Tyria, due to her roots on the ground.

Mordremoth targeting her could be the original plan, Sylvari and their trees being Mordremoth’s tools, to get much deeper into touch of Tyria, for the magical energy.

One reason why Pale Tree has such huge role.

In that vein of thinking, we really don’t know how the dragons devouring of the world works on an individual basis. Zhaitan’s was obviously just to overwhelm the world with an army of death, spreading extensions of himself in an all consuming army, but that doesn’t mean all the dragons work like that.

What if Mordremoth works by creating a being that nature and the very world becomes dependent on, the pale tree in this case, then deals a massive blow to the world by killing that being?

lordkrall.7241:

Would be a bit weird to have two Dragons with very similar powers (both Mordy and Tree have powers connected to plants and nature.)

Except we already have that problem. We have Zhaitan representing death, mordremoth as life, Primordus as fire, Kralkatorrik as earth, and then the unnamed underwater dragon and Jormag both representing water. All of the classical elements are represented except air, because water is represented twice. One could say Jormag represents air, except that his powers are always represented by frozen water.

How I can’t wait for this LS season to end once and for all so we can put all the sylvari behind once and for all and move out to a story where they are the most precious thing in Tyria….talk about kittening that GW1 lore was too human-centric (of course it was, 3 of the now playable races didn’t even exist until the last expansion and even then, one of them didn’t even have a face).

Hopefully this won’t be for a story where only asuras can save the day.

@PopeUrban, In regards to Dhuum/Grenth. I can see where you are coming from, it’s more of a discussion about the definition. Or rather, where the lines of the Definitions run: Is a God just one of those that is warshipped by the Humans, representing a throne. Or is a God a highly potent magical entity representing/linked to a certain aspect of Magic (like Menzies & Shadows, in another example)…

So, I am getting it … I just follow different lines for my definition than others (well you anyway, apparently) …

In order to settle this I would be inclined to use subcatagories and a broad to specific definition set…

God -> a Highly potent Magical Entity that represents one or more aspects of magic.
Supreme God: that is recognized an worshipped by multiple races
Racial God: that is worshipped by a single race, regardless if they are recognized by multiple races. Regardless of how high a certain god is placed on the ranking by a single race, this God can not be considered a supreme god, if this God isn’t also warshipped by another race.
Lesser God: these are entities that comply with the definition of a God, but are not worshipped by the whole of a Race, or have fallen out of grace.

Which then leads to the following set of ‘Gods’. (I am a bit rusty on my other races though, in regards to god worship)
Supreme God: Melandru, (maybe Lyssa too, not sure on Vabbian situation)
Racial Gods: Dwayna, Balthazar, Grenth, Lyssa (humans); Animal Totems (Norn).
Lesser Gods: Menzies, Dhuum, Abaddon, Titans, Jormag, Primordus.

What do you think?

PopeUrban.2578:

You’re still not getting it though, in the example of dhuum, he’s not a “god” any more,

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In truth, the six humans gods as we know them could have all come from very different places, races, and planes, and in effect have been the earliest known example of an adventuring party. We can’t know the specifics because they either aren’t comprehensible to humans, or humans have been made to believe that they are not. We don’t know what they look like, or if they even have corporeal appearances as all renderings of them are of humanized aspects and interpretations.

1st point. Dhuum is very much still a god. Unlike the father of Balthazar and Menzies who is presumed to have been killed by Balthazar. Balthazar ended the existence of the previous god, therefore that god no longer exists and is therefore no longer a god. Grenth did not kill Dhuum. He only overthrew Dhuum and imprisoned Dhuum within the Underworld. That is like saying my $1.00 bill is no longer a $1.00 bill because i have placed it inside of my wallet. its still a $1.00 as it exists inside or outside of a wallet.

2nd point. Avatars of the gods were made present as of nightfall in gw1. Avatars are defined as “incarnate in human form”. Wether or not the humans percieve them that way or if that is how the gods chose to represent themselves to humans does not matter. The representation in human form (i choose to think the latter) shows us what they look like.

How about we go Occum’s Razor and say that Mordy wants the Pale Tree as a source of probably one of the biggest magical feats in Tyria’s recent history: birthing an entire race. Considering they happen to be plants, which is our dear dragon’s home ground, of course he’s going to want to get his vines into them.

@Ariella, well we don’t because Occum’s Razor is just a movie originated ‘scientific’ principle, that can even ‘proof’ the existence of well just about anything. For example:

In the middle ages there was a recipe for Mice:
- one pile of hay + one sac of grain = mice

Apply Occum’s Razor, life originates from just about anything, as long as you have the right ingredients. Errr :/

Occum’s Razor: the simplest answer is usually correct one (paraphrase)

Now let’s look at the plot in the simplest of terms: the new dragon’s sphere is plants. The Pale Tree is a huge magical plant with magical plant “children” aka the Sylvari. If you’re our beloved elder dragon, where would your first stop on the lunch menu be?

And Occum isn’t a movie originated ‘scientific’ principle:

Occam’s razor (also written as Ockham’s razor and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in problem-solving devised by William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347). It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I figured using the Occam’s Razor logic device was probably less… inflammatory than the other way I could have stated it: the KISS principle.

@Ariella, while I can not speak for others, and while I did check and apparently there are more sources for him than the wiki (so he did exist, in the middle ages, and is referenced there for this principle). I personally consider it to be somewhat of a moot principle (like the principle of the flat earth); and the only place where this principle does have some merit is in simplifying research.

Aka, if you want to do research that involves a Hypothesis, and you are formulating various ones to be the basis of your research, start with the one that has the least amount of assumptions so that your research is more likely to come to viable results.

That is not saying though that the simplest answer is the correct one, it is saying, try to figure out if the simplest answer is ‘the’ answer, b4 trying to figure out if some difficult constructed theory with all sorts of assumption (that may or may not be true) can be ‘the’ answer. I hope you see the difference here

And actually your suggestion is not the simplest answer based upon what we know. The simplest is, the Pale Tree is supposed to be the Champion of Mordremoth and the Sylvari are supposed to be Mordremoths minions… ‘But’ something happened that made it turn out in a different way… we even have a clue in the story of Ventari that could be a possible reason for what happened. (and, there are actually some more hints that point in this direction.) Will he go after the pale tree? did Kralkatorrik go after Glint… ?

How is saying that the Pale Tree is a Champion of Mordremoth simple? We have NO evidence of any connection between the tree and the dragon other than that they both are connected to the plant world. Everything else is speculation at this point.

The only things we know at this point are what we saw, which is summarized in the LS journal, what we’ve been told Scarlet saw, and the little we actually know about the dragon and what we know about the Tree.

The tree is magical, to the point (as someone pointed out in another thread) of being a deity, considering she birthed an entire race. And while that’s not the GW definition of godhood, it does mark her as being a very powerful mystical being. If Dragons, as they seem to be, are elemental forces, then Mordremoth would be drawn to the Tree being she’s of his element. To a lesser extent he’d also be drawn to her children, but that’s another discussion.

If the dragons are intelligent, which I’m not sure pans out from everything I’ve managed to see in the PS, then Modremoth would go after the tree in order to control it and through it the Sylvari.

The reference to plant creatures and other seeds is vague, and doesn’t really prove or disprove anything, but considering in one of the Sylvari PS there’s mention of another possible Tree, and Sylvari who may have come from that tree was neither evil nor in any service to anything, in fact the Nightmare Court was trying to corrupt him tends to make me think that the idea of her being a servant of the Dragon is an iffy proposition. (sorry I tried 5 times to use the tag, but it wouldn’t work)

Of course, I’d like to see something different, not Glint’s story rehashed. Not that Glint’s story wasn’t good, but let’s see what else the writers can do. But for right now, it’s best to take what we do know for certain then go from there. We know that the Pale Tree was at the center of the arrangement of the six dragon energy spheres, we know that the spheres broke from the arrangement but only one of them attacked the tree, and there seemed to be either a corruption or destruction at that point.

We know that Scarlet had a someone extended version of this sequence with some Sylvari being born and some withering and dying. The vines she saw, I believe, were just her mind’s way of comprehending what she was seeing. But either way, it’s an attack and it looks as if it has the potential to be devastating.

That’s the point where we should go forward from. These are the things that the devs have specifically highlighted at the moment.

And now I’ll make reference to another device, this time literary, we need to be looking for Chekov’s gun. “If the gun is on the wall in the first act, it should be used by the third” or what specific pieces are they giving us now that are foreshadowing.

One of the reasons I’m leery of the Champion Theory is that they would have highlighted her birth in some form early on. It would have been easy to have it in one of Scar’s journals. They may bring this up in the next episode, but until then, the fact that she’s magical, and her kids are magical and all plant based would make her a target alone.

Though, there is ONE thing. Why did those Nightmare Courtiers join Scarlet in the Toxic Alliance? I mean it could have been just a cool device to bring in known bad guys… Just sayin’

Ronin.7381:

Wanderer.3248:

For the millionth time, that is Zhaitan.

No it’s not. It’s got branches and roots all over it and it’s using the generic Tequatl model. But if the plants are to symbolize anything, it has nothing to do with Risen.

It has been explained before that this is in the dream of the newborn Sylvari and everything is plants. The player has never seen a dragon, this is what they see in the dream. It’s a foreshadowing of the players wild hunt, which is to kill Zhaitan.

Wanderer.3248:

Ronin.7381:

Wanderer.3248:

For the millionth time, that is Zhaitan.

No it’s not. It’s got branches and roots all over it and it’s using the generic Tequatl model. But if the plants are to symbolize anything, it has nothing to do with Risen.

It has been explained before that this is in the dream of the newborn Sylvari and everything is plants. The player has never seen a dragon, this is what they see in the dream. It’s a foreshadowing of the players wild hunt, which is to kill Zhaitan.

Exactly, heck this is why Caithe is so interested in the Sylvari player. The reason why it’s plant based is because it’s manifesting out of that area of the dream. Pardon the expression but the stuff the Dream is made of. Or at least that section.

And the devs aren’t going to give you a look at the REAL Zhaitan until the have to. Kind of like how you don’t really see Jaws or Clover, or Sauron it adds to the menace.

Ariella Goldstein.3562:

Occum’s Razor: the simplest answer is usually correct one (paraphrase)

Now let’s look at the plot in the simplest of terms: the new dragon’s sphere is plants. The Pale Tree is a huge magical plant with magical plant “children” aka the Sylvari. If you’re our beloved elder dragon, where would your first stop on the lunch menu be?

And Occum isn’t a movie originated ‘scientific’ principle:

Occam’s razor (also written as Ockham’s razor and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in problem-solving devised by William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347). It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I figured using the Occam’s Razor logic device was probably less… inflammatory than the other way I could have stated it: the KISS principle.

Except that the Pale Tree is a secret dragon champion isn’t the simplest theory. It’s a convoluted twisted paranoid conspiracy theory. And like all good conspiracy theories, it can survive without any proof.

Ehrm not realy, we saw the pale tree b4 we saw the ‘diagram’, so we move past the Pale tree, to get to it, this is also what Scarlet experienced. The ‘assumption’ that this means that the pale tree is at the center of the diagram, is only based upon a sketch made by Scarlet, which by all mean, might just be that, trying to make sense of it all… And she, like you, assume that how we pass the tree, indicates that the white (both are whitish) means that the tree is the center. No proof of it though…

What I do see as proof though, or at least a very strong hint. Is this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/zaitan-dark-green-orb/first#post4222396 Which explains why Mordremoth as a Dragon is so late to arrive, if his orb is the 4th to light up… And while I will agree that pointing at the pale tree is an assumption, it would explain the whole thing (and yes, that means that the pale tree suffered a case of ‘the Glint’, but ‘you know’, look at GW1 … some things just seem to return and come back), and obviously that theory (linked) is an assumption too…

Still though, and that is my biggest problem with this Occam’s razor thing, regardless of the reason why Mordi would go after the PaleTree (as Kralki did with Glint). Using just that as a means of concluding, ‘Mordi went after the Pale tree because they are both plant like’. While conclusions based upon observation, it may not be the actual reason…

I’m getting sort of lost on you on that last 4 bits though, but I will answer to that 5th (from the bottom). Why did scarlet see that vine, scarring the Pale tree? Well because maybe that is the ‘true form’ of the pale tree. In a sense you can ‘also’ see that as a hint that the Pale Tree was supposed to be Mordremoth’s minion factory… (or maybe it was what scarlet thought she was. as she then after the vision grew some herself.)

On the lost bit then? Who’s birth would have been highlighted? The pale tree’s birth? cuz if so, it was in the last episode of GW1: Eye of the North.

Who knows, but if ‘a Sylvari’ approaches a dark morbid nightmarish branch of Sylvari and suggests: ‘Lets make a huge life producing tree of our own, producing toxicating seeds, and plant/krait like monstrosities’. That would strike those Nightmare Court as something that sounds like a good plan ?

pale tree will not be a dragon, if you look at gw1 lore, pale tree was a seed found in a cave containing many others like it.
so it can’t be a dragon, if there are multiple seeds of the same kind.

also pale tree’s act is inspired by ventari and ronan’s attitudes and philosophy.
so if ventari and ronan had a different philosophy, i assume the tree will act differently as well

Conncept.7638:

Except we already have that problem. We have Zhaitan representing death, mordremoth as life, Primordus as fire, Kralkatorrik as earth, and then the unnamed underwater dragon and Jormag both representing water. All of the classical elements are represented except air, because water is represented twice. One could say Jormag represents air, except that his powers are always represented by frozen water.

Why assume they most fit the standard elementals?

Zhaitan – Death.
Mordremoth – Earth/Plants
Prímordus – Fire
Krally – Crystal/Wind (it is more wind than Earth I would say, due to the Lightning that keeps coming up near its crystals)
Jormag – Ice
Bubbles – Water

@lordkrall, I do not see any reason why you put ‘earth’ with Mordremoth? Sofar all the minions are plants. If you want to place ‘earth’ somewhere, it would be with Primordus, whos minions are Magma. Which is basically molten earth… so fire/earth.

I see this done more though, and I don’t blame you … people see Plants, think Melandru, and remember God of Earth & Nature. And assume that Mordi, due to representing ‘Nature’ in a sense, he is also related to earth… Seeing a one on one relation ship with Gods/Dragons has already been debunked, there is no reason to assume that Mordi while representing nature, also represents earth (until we see any hints or proof for it).

Assassin X.8573:

PopeUrban.2578:

You’re still not getting it though, in the example of dhuum, he’s not a “god” any more,

---

In truth, the six humans gods as we know them could have all come from very different places, races, and planes, and in effect have been the earliest known example of an adventuring party. We can’t know the specifics because they either aren’t comprehensible to humans, or humans have been made to believe that they are not. We don’t know what they look like, or if they even have corporeal appearances as all renderings of them are of humanized aspects and interpretations.

1st point. Dhuum is very much still a god. Unlike the father of Balthazar and Menzies who is presumed to have been killed by Balthazar. Balthazar ended the existence of the previous god, therefore that god no longer exists and is therefore no longer a god. Grenth did not kill Dhuum. He only overthrew Dhuum and imprisoned Dhuum within the Underworld. That is like saying my $1.00 bill is no longer a $1.00 bill because i have placed it inside of my wallet. its still a $1.00 as it exists inside or outside of a wallet.

2nd point. Avatars of the gods were made present as of nightfall in gw1. Avatars are defined as “incarnate in human form”. Wether or not the humans percieve them that way or if that is how the gods chose to represent themselves to humans does not matter. The representation in human form (i choose to think the latter) shows us what they look like.

You obviously didn’t read what you quoted. Dhuum didn’t retain his office, or the powers he held after being deposed. It wasn’t that they just imprisoned a fully-functional old crual god of death in the underworld. They replaced him, stripped him of “godly” title and powers, and THEN locked him in the underworld because he’s still a crafty and dangerous dude.

To use your analogy, they didn’t put the dollar bill in the wallet. They undid the entire dying process of the dollar and THEN put it in the wallet. It stopped being a dollar before it got in there.

As to your second point, Avatars of the gods are human interpretations, like the various human paintings and statues of them. The gods do not literally enter a dervish and become flesh. They empower the dervish as their champion. Human avatar forms look the way they do because they are humans In fact GW2’s entire Malchor’s leap lorescape makes sure the reinforce that fact: Malchor went INSANE because he say what dwayna looked like, but despite his best efforts couldn’t translate what he saw in to a sculpture. He killed himself.

@PopeUrban, we do not know that for a fact, the Human’s attribute the ‘Necro’ powers to Grenth, as they are related to the underworld. Aka. they come with the office. But we do not know for sure that even though Grenth sits in the office, technically the powers come from a magical plain that still sees Dhuum as it’s representative.

Some of this can be deducted from the Lore of Dhuum, who is said to grow stronger with every death…

So, I were to say, there is the chair that rules over the underworld and the powers that come with it, and there is the representative that is ‘supposed’ to sit on it, and the one that is ‘currently’ (or at least during the time of the gods) sitting on it, and exercises the powers that come with the chair. Like I said earlier, this is a definition question and not one that can be solved by clashing opinions.

In regards to Malchor btw. If Dwayna was Grenths mother, then do you think what I’m thinking ?