Guild Wars 2

Lostwingman.5034:

Noviere.7309:

Thousands of lives are in danger and we’re supposed to be more concerned with the ego of a tween? Taimi is my favourite LS character, but there are more important things than her pride.

Yea I would have loved to see the biconics meet up at the summit after that genius Palador’s childish fan fiction situation. Yea, let Taimi explain to Marjory that the Asura aren’t going to help prevent more deaths like Belinda’s because of some misplaced sense of selfish righteousness. Too many people in this thread are of the “feelz b4 realz” variety and don’t think things through. It’s one of those situations where “no, you were never going to get that option because it borders on the worst thing you could do”.

Or even the other racial leaders.

“So, where is the Asura rep?”

“Oh, he isn’t coming at all.”

“Why?”

“Because I refused to accept his terms to come to the meeting and told him to kitten off.”

Frankly, from my necromancers In character point of view (if she was involved with biconics), she’d go “Taimi, if you want to adventure, this is an important lesson. You can’t win every battle and sometimes you have to sacrifice something important to win later.”

It wouldn’t even be “if you want to adventure”. It would be, “if you want to fight Elder Dragons and live you need to learn how to look at the bigger picture”.

Lostwingman.5034:

Yea I would have loved to see the biconics meet up at the summit after that genius Palador’s childish fan fiction situation. Yea, let Taimi explain to Marjory that the Asura aren’t going to help prevent more deaths like Belinda’s because of some misplaced sense of selfish righteousness. Too many people in this thread are of the “feelz b4 realz” variety and don’t think things through. It’s one of those situations where “no, you were never going to get that option because it borders on the worst thing you could do”.

Oh, I’ll gleefully admit it was childish. Satisfying, but childish. And stupid. As stupid as assuming that we would stand there and do NOTHING, no matter which side we agreed with. Even if you agree with Phlunt’s actions, why would you just stand there while someone that calls you boss does something stupid? You don’t even get to call out to her and tell her to stop. (Or order Scruffy into Follow mode. I bet she forgot to disable that, because why would you abuse it?)

I feel the need to repeat something I said in another thread, though. Phlunt knows you need the Council’s help, and he’s the one there to represent them. He’s seen the risk first hand now, and you’ve told him EVERYONE needs to work together to deal with this. By changing the terms of his attending, he’s blackmailing you and putting the lives of all of Tyria on the line until you give in. YOU, the Commander of the Pact, and the leader of the group that’s on the cutting edge of dealing with this new Elder Dragon.

And what he’s after is one of the most dangerous weapons on Tyria at that time. By using it to un-attune a waypoint, he now knows he can call down a dragonvine attack at any waypoint. By pushing just a couple of buttons, he can lay waste to any major town, and quite a few minor ones as well.

Can you, the Commander of the Pact, really allow that to happen? Or should you do what you have to in order to get what YOU need, and get that device (and Taimi) under some serious Pact protection someplace safe?

….Sigh.

I’ll just try to make it clear why I don’t like Phlunt. T.l.d.r. version at the end.

At the very start as you go in, he’s questioning Taimi why her device is affecting waypoints, not ley lines. The problem with this line is that in The Waypoint Conundrum, Taimi had already stated that her device was going to affect the waypoints by altering their resonance so Mordremoth’s tendrils will not be attracted to them.

So, either:

- Someone didn’t check earlier to keep the writing consistent,
- Phlunt is either senile or has bad short term memory,
- or Phlunt’s just being a stubborn bunghole.

So, he demands a demonstration to prove that it works even though we already explained how it was supposed to work, using the mini waypoints to reverse the effects to finally convince them. It is only after that part that the Mordrem attack, attracted to the mini waypoints. So the Mordrem attack is indirectly his fault for demanding us to use the mini waypoints to prove something he should’ve already known.

Oh, and he and his “guards” are utterly useless in the fight. This may seem normal to you, but those who’ve played the asura personal story on certain paths can see the other council members (except Yahk and Haia) being capable of combat.

After all that, Phlunt, finally convinced…decides to alter the deal right as it seems he’s accepted. He now states that as a ward of the Synergetic College, she is to hand over all inventions for study and documentation.

So, not only the device she just worked on, but any she makes to help us after that, are to be taken. And he’s doing it without any clear proof that she has to do that. So he’s extorting the device from her.

And don’t give me that nonsense about him putting it in a trust for her till she graduates. That could be easily a feint while he tries to probe her for anything else he may want.

As both the weather device and VAL-A Golem arcs show, not only could it still be stolen/modified for bad purposes, but it’s been made clear that nearly none of the council can be trusted any further than they can be thrown. With the exception of maybe Ludo and Zudo, every other one is either corrupt, aligned with (or in Yahk’s case, part of) the Inquest, or just a selfish, backstabbing rat (Haia, anyone?).

Now….Taimi running off was stupid and a bad reaction, no argument there (Her second dumbest choice besides trying to jump into Omadd’s machine). However, it didn’t help that not only did Phlunt change the deal right at the end, he also showed no consideration for her feelings/opinion on the matter.

“I made this outside of Rata Sum, on my own time!”

“Irrelevant. Hand it over like a good progeny, and we’ll see you at the summit.”

Class act there. Flax or Haia would’ve at least tried to persuade her to give it up without just going “Frak you progeny, hand your invention over!” and making her decide to run off.

To be continued…

And finally, after getting away with theft, altering the deal at the last second and getting what he wanted, you’d think he’d finally at least support the leaders coming together in spite of their own problems, right?

No.

“Why isn’t the Pact handling this? Are they mired in Orr?”

If he bothered to look into it himself (or ask other asura or someone in the Pact), he’d know that the Pact is still dealing with the remaining Risen, fighting off the Svanir in Frostgorge Sound, and dealing with the Flame Legion remnants in Fireheart Rise. Of course, he doesn’t really care either way.

Trehearne note that he’s here to just listen as well, noting that we know more about the situation, and that the Pact is not all powerful, and may not be enough this time.

“Not enough? Why not? You took down Zhaitan. What’s so different about this one. Just do it again.”

Once again, he doesn’t know (or care) that the Pact took quite a toll in the end to take out Zhaitan. We point that out, and his response?

“Well, that’s your responsibility. Many of those lost were asura.”

So, he claims that many of the lost were asura, despite him clearly not keeping tabs on things himself, and making it clear, that like Flax, non-asura lives don’t concern him. (And, as he showed earlier, even Taimi’s life didn’t matter much to him, just the device.)

“We have ample protection. Are you saying we should put ourselves on the line to protect you? We are safe in Rata Sum.”

Like that time Kudu flooded the council chamber? Like that time Haia sicked a bunch of haywire VAL-A golems on you?

Like that time the Destroyers kicked you out of the Depths?

“Hmph. Point well made. Though it galls me to say it, if we hadn’t come to the surface, Primordus and its Destroyers would’ve annihilated my people.”

Gee, thanks for finally realizing that if we don’t work together, we’ll all die.

“For now. We will continue to study the situation and participate in discussion with the other races. For now.”

Key words: For now. He’s still saying he could always back out and leave us to die.

So, Too long didn’t read?

-Phlunt’s an ignorant jerk when it comes to understanding Taimi’s device. He indirectly caused the Mordrem attack by getting us to demonstrate using the mini waypoints. He and his guards are useless during the attack.

-And when he’s finally convinced, he decides to alter the deal so he can get a hold of the machine for himself. Never mind Zojja or Vorpp, who are supposed to be her guardians and thus have a claim to her things first. On top of that, his utter insensitveness to Taimi’s concerns causes her to run away.

- Even when he gets what he wants, he continues to be a useless, obstructive prick, demanding what the Pact is doing about it, and insisting that it’s the Pact’s job, not the leaders’ jobs to figure out how to deal with the dragons (never mind that the dragons are trying to KILL US ALL), and all the while implying that the asura would be just fine while the rest of Tyria is destroyed. It takes us reminding him of the one time Primordus kicked them out from underground for him to manage some level of cooperation… “for now”.

Just a thought, but it’s heavily hinted that SOMEONE must be responsible for Mord’s minions knowing to attack just then. Right?

Well, Phlunt now has the object that can be used to trigger a Mord attack. And if he knew it was coming, he might have had some secret plan to survive it. If the attack killed all the others there, then not only would the asura be the only ones with their leadership intact, but he’d be in a prime position to take over the Pact and basically expect all the other races to fall into line under his command.

He wouldn’t expect the other leaders to be useful in a fight. Jenna was able to defend herself, Smodur and Knut were able to fight and possibly even go on the offensive, and Trahearne got out safely. Only the Pale Tree was badly hurt, and even she might recover.

Is it possible that he’s the bad guy for Season 2?

Palador.2170:

Just a thought, but it’s heavily hinted that SOMEONE must be responsible for Mord’s minions knowing to attack just then. Right?

Well, Phlunt now has the object that can be used to trigger a Mord attack. And if he knew it was coming, he might have had some secret plan to survive it. If the attack killed all the others there, then not only would the asura be the only ones with their leadership intact, but he’d be in a prime position to take over the Pact and basically expect all the other races to fall into line under his command.

He wouldn’t expect the other leaders to be useful in a fight. Jenna was able to defend herself, Smodur and Knut were able to fight and possibly even go on the offensive, and Trahearne got out safely. Only the Pale Tree was badly hurt, and even she might recover.

Is it possible that he’s the bad guy for Season 2?

FRANKLY… this actually is plausible…

I’d buy that he perhaps attuned the waypoints in the Grove to suddenly be prime pickings for the mordrem, luring them there. Of course, after summit he immediately turns them back to avoid suspicion.

Palador.2170:

Just a thought, but it’s heavily hinted that SOMEONE must be responsible for Mord’s minions knowing to attack just then. Right?

Well, Phlunt now has the object that can be used to trigger a Mord attack. And if he knew it was coming, he might have had some secret plan to survive it. If the attack killed all the others there, then not only would the asura be the only ones with their leadership intact, but he’d be in a prime position to take over the Pact and basically expect all the other races to fall into line under his command.

He wouldn’t expect the other leaders to be useful in a fight. Jenna was able to defend herself, Smodur and Knut were able to fight and possibly even go on the offensive, and Trahearne got out safely. Only the Pale Tree was badly hurt, and even she might recover.

Is it possible that he’s the bad guy for Season 2?

I think that’s a bit of a stretch, even if we assume that Phlunt tuned down all of the waypoints except the Grove’s to make it a target for a dragon attack, he has no ability to unsummon dragon minions; as awesome as our characters may be, we can’t solo mini-dragons and Phlunt doesn’t have any means to order dragon minions to go away (seriously, if he did that would be the invention-of-a-lifetime-let’s-go-back-underground-cause-dragons-aren’t-a-threat-anymore and he wouldn’t even care about Taimi’s invention, much less take it), so that dragon didn’t leave because it was defeated, it left because it was time.

Somebody ordered the dragon to attack to scare the gathered leaders, then ordered it to leave before causing too much damage. I can only think of two reasons why this was done:

1) It was a declaration of superiority. Mordremoth is flaunting not only his power, but his information network: he knows the races are forming a little alliance and he just wanted to drop in and say “Hi, I can kill you all whenever I want, but whatevs.”

2) Someone else has partial control over Mordremoth’s minions and wants Tyria to unite against him, so uses a controlled dragon attack to terrorize the leaders into action.

I’m going with #2 and I’m betting it’s Scarlet or a part of Scarlet’s mind (based on the “You’ll see one day, Tyria needs me” note) that was bound to Mordremoth either through Omadd’s modified machine or the timing of her death and the Breachmaker hitting the leyline hub.

Leo Paul.1659:

As a human, I had to check Phlunt’s profile on the GW2 wiki first and it says “Phlunt is an old asura in the Council Level. It is unclear if he is a council member..”

Or you could just read the dialogue of the current living story:

Taimi: "I talked to Zojja, just like Braham asked me to. She got me in to see Councillor Phlunt. It was all great until I made the mistake of mentioning my device. "

He’s on the council. Zojja is in on things. No reason for any kind of distrust.

It’s plausible, though it would be really lame because everyone would be going, “We would have punted him off a cliff earlier if you’d just given us the option!”

Well, Scarlet did say in Scarlet’s Story that she was looking to turn the ‘forces that shape us’ against one another. Whether that was truly what she was doing is open for interpretation, but if that declaration wasn’t simply self-delusion, it implies that she wasn’t entirely Mordremoth’s creature.

However, you’ve missed a third and fourth possibility:

3) That the attack was a genuine effort to kill everything in the vicinity, but something happened elsewhere that caused Mordremoth to withdraw and redirect the lieutenant.

4) Give us a little more credit… maybe we DID actually manage to do enough damage to it to cause it to retreat in fear of its own life. Sure, we can’t exactly solo Tequatl, the Claw or the Shatterer, but the Shadow may have been weaker for one of a number of reasons, it could also have been copping more fire from outside that we couldn’t see, or the Pale Tree herself could have been fighting back magically or even physically.

draxynnic.3719:

Well, Scarlet did say in Scarlet’s Story that she was looking to turn the ‘forces that shape us’ against one another. Whether that was truly what she was doing is open for interpretation, but if that declaration wasn’t simply self-delusion, it implies that she wasn’t entirely Mordremoth’s creature.

However, you’ve missed a third and fourth possibility:

3) That the attack was a genuine effort to kill everything in the vicinity, but something happened elsewhere that caused Mordremoth to withdraw and redirect the lieutenant.

4) Give us a little more credit… maybe we DID actually manage to do enough damage to it to cause it to retreat in fear of its own life. Sure, we can’t exactly solo Tequatl, the Claw or the Shatterer, but the Shadow may have been weaker for one of a number of reasons, it could also have been copping more fire from outside that we couldn’t see, or the Pale Tree herself could have been fighting back magically or even physically.

I really didn’t think #3 was a possibility because without the appropriate foreshadowing, pulling a deus ex machina like that would be simply terrible writing. In LS2 we haven’t had any indication that there’s something challenging Mordremoth other than our own characters, so I am fairly confident it’s not one of the possibilities. Of course, it could just be terrible writing, in which case I’ll give up on trying to speculate because it could be laser butt unicorns for all I know.

It’s true that there could have been others supporting from outside, but the post-battle dialogue just makes it sound like they were completely taken off guard and completely baffled why the Shadow left. It certainly could be a case of the writer limiting each character’s situational awareness to what they realistically can perceive, so their dialogue would reflect not being aware of other people attacking from below (though that would be strange, since it’s hard to miss people shooting up at a chamber with a dragon crawling all over it), but I don’t think the writers are going to be so subtle over that level of detail.

Kalavier.1097:

Palador.2170:

Just a thought, but it’s heavily hinted that SOMEONE must be responsible for Mord’s minions knowing to attack just then. Right?

Well, Phlunt now has the object that can be used to trigger a Mord attack. And if he knew it was coming, he might have had some secret plan to survive it. If the attack killed all the others there, then not only would the asura be the only ones with their leadership intact, but he’d be in a prime position to take over the Pact and basically expect all the other races to fall into line under his command.

He wouldn’t expect the other leaders to be useful in a fight. Jenna was able to defend herself, Smodur and Knut were able to fight and possibly even go on the offensive, and Trahearne got out safely. Only the Pale Tree was badly hurt, and even she might recover.

Is it possible that he’s the bad guy for Season 2?

FRANKLY… this actually is plausible…

I’d buy that he perhaps attuned the waypoints in the Grove to suddenly be prime pickings for the mordrem, luring them there. Of course, after summit he immediately turns them back to avoid suspicion.

As much as part of me wants to believe that’s the case (if only so we could kill him later), it doesn’t seem so. Back during the Mordrem attacking Taimi’s demonstration, the boss enemy clearly focused on sucking more energy from the mini-waypoints while fighting us. So, if they had been “attracted” to the Grove’s waypoints, they’d have probably done the same there, only killing whoever was nearby.

However, the details we do get of what’s going on outside while we’re fighting in the chamber imply that this attack was very coordinated, going specifically for the leaders/the Pale Tree.

- Taimi mentions that the Mordrem below destroyed the lift to and from the Omphalos Chamber, clearly to keep those in the chamber from escaping, as well as preventing reinforcements. Until Kasmeer’s portal, that is.

- The Avatar’s scream as the initial attack starts, and her mentioning the damage inflicted on her during that. In addition, the boss going straight for the chamber.

- Said boss retreats after taking some damage, but it is unclear why (Braham even notes it could’ve finished the job if it stayed). Seemingly something else caught it’s attention, or Mordremoth recalled it.

So, unless we get more evidence for this, I must say that it isn’t likely enough for Phlunt to have done it.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Leo Paul.1659:

As a human, I had to check Phlunt’s profile on the GW2 wiki first and it says “Phlunt is an old asura in the Council Level. It is unclear if he is a council member..”

Or you could just read the dialogue of the current living story:

Taimi: "I talked to Zojja, just like Braham asked me to. She got me in to see Councillor Phlunt. It was all great until I made the mistake of mentioning my device. "

He’s on the council. Zojja is in on things. No reason for any kind of distrust.

Zojja only knows taimi is meeting with Phlunt. I doubt she knows he is forcing her to hand over her invention, and whether she would agree to such terms, considering the stance she took on The Snaff Prize.

I was mostly responding to what I quoted, which is the part where you claim that you had to check the wiki for information about Phlunt, which wasn’t necessary because Taimi acknowledged Phlunt’s position herself while talking to you. For someone so interested in standing up for the little greedy brat, you seem to pay very little attention to what she says. I can relate, though, I tend to zone out as well when she starts squeaking.

Zojja’s position, that we can only guess at, but after the whole mess with Destiny’s Edge, the melodrama it took to get back together and kill Zhaitan, I suspect she wouldn’t let a child’s lack of perspective get in the way of mobilizing her own people against Mordremoth.

We needed the Asura at the Summit. No if’s or but’s about it. I know it really sucks, Taimi, but if you made the WRD once, you can make it again. Plus, you can be sure I’ll be spreading the word that it was you who originally invented it, not Phlunt, even if he is holding it in trust for you.

That said, I’m sorely disappointed we didn’t see Phlunt trip on his robes on his way to the Omphalos Chamber. :P

Manasa Devi.7958:

I was mostly responding to what I quoted, which is the part where you claim that you had to check the wiki for information about Phlunt, which wasn’t necessary because Taimi acknowledged Phlunt’s position herself while talking to you. For someone so interested in standing up for the little greedy brat, you seem to pay very little attention to what she says. I can relate, though, I tend to zone out as well when she starts squeaking.

Zojja’s position, that we can only guess at, but after the whole mess with Destiny’s Edge, the melodrama it took to get back together and kill Zhaitan, I suspect she wouldn’t let a child’s lack of perspective get in the way of mobilizing her own people against Mordremoth.

lol you took that seriously?

As for what Zojja would’ve done, I doubt she would’ve allowed Phlunt to take possession of such a powerful device that easily given her personality. If she showed concern towards a relatively less important invention such as the Interspacial Translocator because the council might hand it over to the inquest, I don’t see why she wouldn’t do the same for her own apprentice.

<Character name>: Zojja’s right. The Council accepted that protest and gave away our translocator suspiciously fast. I think that whole charade was rehearsed.
Zojja: Which means it’s only a matter of time before they rescind their decision, take away your victory and award the Snaff Prize to the Inquest.
Zojja: I say we even the score. Let’s take back your teleporter by force before they take away your right to do it legally.

Granted, the inquest might not be directly/blatantly involved in this one, but as kittenhe is, she probably would’ve learned from history how untrustworthy the council can be.

Zojja: Save your ink, Varkk. It’s obvious Flax and Teyo are working together. And I will not let them besmirch Snaff’s memory.

A Meeting of the Minds

<Character name>: I had no idea the Council was corrupt enough to hoard information that could help Tyria deal with the dragons.
Scholar Krasso: They obviously think they can keep themselves safe in Rata Sum. But the more power they stockpile, the faster the dragons will come for them.
Zojja: Listen, I’ve fought the dragons, and I am telling you they have no chance. The only hope Tyria has is for all races to join forces.

Yep. No way Zojja would’ve just sat back and let Phlunt pull off what he did. Of course, whoever’s writing this couldn’t be bothered with that much consistency anyways.

Really? This is what bothers people?

Taimi is a child and hasn’t graduated yet. It’s pretty clear that until she does, all her inventions belong to the school she’s in. For us, as commander of the Pact, to step in and break their laws is a big deal. It would mean complete disregard of the rules in Tyria and would reflect very poorly on the Pact.

What is the big deal anyway? Taimi is obviously throwing a tantrum, like the child she is, not because she’s being wronged but because she doesn’t feel like handing it over.

Her sudden sprint into the desert should have had far worse consequences for her. It’s great how they gloss over it so easily but she broke her race’s rules, endangered a key item to saving Tyria for no reason other than her own selfishness and all in all probably would have died in the desert if not for our convenient timing.

And you dare to claim Phlunt is the bad guy?

This is the dark side of every playable race’s government and culture.
Humans have caste system, off which many just try to increase their own power at the cost of others, Bandits and White Mantle cult.
Asura leadership wants to hide information they deem harmful for their position on council.
Sylvari have the problem of being dragon minions.
Norn have the problem of their philosophies of life, this drives many to join Sons of Svanir cult, cause the most common interest is to gain more strength.
Charr have the issue of group that want to keep warring with humans, the renegades, to which some Charr defect into.

Trixie.7614:

I’m not ok with uniting with the Charr, but I guess we don’t get to choose.

Death to all warmongering humans and their warmongering gods!

While it might be bad that Charr reclaimed their homelands, it wasn’t justified for humans to do what they did since their arrival on Tyria…

Over the course of GW1, there are revelations about the deception in the GW1 manuscript, that is written in the viewpoint of humanity of Tyria.

• Five out of six Gods directed humans to wage war and genocide against the Tyria’s original races, what a kitten move from the gods.
• Humans drive the Charr from their homeworlds.
• Humans kill millions under the order of the 5 gods
• Humans then proceed to take creation of other races and make them as their own (example: Bloodstone was created by the Seers to hide magic from the Dragons).
• Humans rewrite the history in their favor, justifying more horrid actions against everyone, even themselves.
• Traces of the Elder Dragons are pretty much wiped clean, except for the information written by the still existing ancient races. There can’t be entities, which power drives the six gods into silence, so they have to be erased from history!
• Humans start worshipping other deities, like the Grawl, starting their great civil wars…

Atleast Melandru tried to make humans to communicate with other races…

FrostSpectre.4198:

Humans have caste system, off which many just try to increase their own power at the cost of others, Bandits and White Mantle cult.

I think you should look up what a “caste system” is. Because that’s not what humanity has.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Sylvari have the problem of being dragon minions.

Player speculation that is still fully unsupported.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Norn have the problem of their philosophies of life, this drives many to join Sons of Svanir cult, cause the most common interest is to gain more strength.

The norn’s culture doesn’t drive many to join the Sons of Svanir – the norn’s culture promotes the self, obtaining power through the self, becoming a legend through the self. The Sons of Svanir seek power through Jormag, that is the opposite of common norn culture. And it isn’t all about strength, it’s about renown. You can have the weakest norn ever become a proud symbol of the people if it had the most well-known legend out there. It’s just that most norn seek their legends through the preys they hunt and kill.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Charr have the issue of group that want to keep warring with humans, the renegades, to which some Charr defect into.

There are far more issues with the charr than one measely group of renegades. Flame Legion, a culture built upon war and conquest, a militant hierarchical system imbedded throughout the entire culture (an issue because it’s easily corruptible – one evil Imperator and a whole quarter of the charr race must follow his orders or risk death/becoming gladium).

FrostSpectre.4198:

While it might be bad that Charr reclaimed their homelands, it wasn’t justified for humans to do what they did since their arrival on Tyria…

You should read The Ecology of the Charr and not believe the modern charr’s biased sayings. Specifically this line: “No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.” which proves that Ascalon was conquered by the charr. The original inhabitants arem ostly unknown, but there are heavy hints to dwarves and it’s known that grawl are native to Ascalon and were subdued by the charr.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Five out of six Gods directed humans to wage war and genocide against the Tyria’s original races, what a kitten move from the gods.

Please read this and this – you will find that you’re pretty much stating the opposite of what’s the case. Only Balthazar is outright stated to have wanted humanity to wage war. Melandru – the one you don’t count in that five – wanted peace. Dwayna, however, also wanted peace for humanity. Abaddon is known to have given magic to all sapient races, including the charr, equally but uniquely. The stance that Lyssa and Grenth/Dhuum had is unknown. It’s far from 5 out of 6 wanting to wage war.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Humans kill millions under the order of the 5 gods.

They may have killed millions – but so did the charr – and not under the order of the five gods. Maybe under the order of Balthazar, for some, but not all five and not all millions killed. There are those who killed in the name of Grenth and Abaddon too, but they weren’t ordered – that’s the case of individual fanatics and to blame all of humanity for such actions is akin to blaming all muslims for Osama Bin Ladin. An act that is sadly done…

FrostSpectre.4198:

• Humans then proceed to take creation of other races and make them as their own (example: Bloodstone was created by the Seers to hide magic from the Dragons).
• Humans rewrite the history in their favor, justifying more horrid actions against everyone, even themselves.
• Traces of the Elder Dragons are pretty much wiped clean, except for the information written by the still existing ancient races. There can’t be entities, which power drives the six gods into silence, so they have to be erased from history!

As explained by Angel McCoy, the misdocumentation of history was not a deliberate act. It was not an act of maliciousness as you seem to be claiming, but an act of ignorance. Humanity claimed the Bloodstones and magic itself was made by the Six Gods because they didn’t know any better. They came from a world with next to no magic into a world which had its magic drained/sealed away, and suddenly they’re given a gift by the gods (when they unleashed the sealed magic); what else were they to think, unless told specifically by the gods “we did not create it, but freed it.” Apparently the gods didn’t. Though the gods had erased history once before (Abaddon), and hid things from the humans, it is not humans at fault and the gods likely had good reason.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Humans start worshipping other deities, like the Grawl, starting their great civil wars…

The only humans that worshiped other deities – that’s known to us – would be splinter cults, and those groups did not wage wars.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

Humans start worshipping other deities, like the Grawl, starting their great civil wars…

The only humans that worshiped other deities – that’s known to us – would be splinter cults, and those groups did not wage wars.

What about the War in Kryta?

Pandaman.4758:

draxynnic.3719:

Well, Scarlet did say in Scarlet’s Story that she was looking to turn the ‘forces that shape us’ against one another. Whether that was truly what she was doing is open for interpretation, but if that declaration wasn’t simply self-delusion, it implies that she wasn’t entirely Mordremoth’s creature.

However, you’ve missed a third and fourth possibility:

3) That the attack was a genuine effort to kill everything in the vicinity, but something happened elsewhere that caused Mordremoth to withdraw and redirect the lieutenant.

4) Give us a little more credit… maybe we DID actually manage to do enough damage to it to cause it to retreat in fear of its own life. Sure, we can’t exactly solo Tequatl, the Claw or the Shatterer, but the Shadow may have been weaker for one of a number of reasons, it could also have been copping more fire from outside that we couldn’t see, or the Pale Tree herself could have been fighting back magically or even physically.

I really didn’t think #3 was a possibility because without the appropriate foreshadowing, pulling a deus ex machina like that would be simply terrible writing. In LS2 we haven’t had any indication that there’s something challenging Mordremoth other than our own characters, so I am fairly confident it’s not one of the possibilities. Of course, it could just be terrible writing, in which case I’ll give up on trying to speculate because it could be laser butt unicorns for all I know.

It’s true that there could have been others supporting from outside, but the post-battle dialogue just makes it sound like they were completely taken off guard and completely baffled why the Shadow left. It certainly could be a case of the writer limiting each character’s situational awareness to what they realistically can perceive, so their dialogue would reflect not being aware of other people attacking from below (though that would be strange, since it’s hard to miss people shooting up at a chamber with a dragon crawling all over it), but I don’t think the writers are going to be so subtle over that level of detail.

Coincidences happen, and if what called the Shadow away had to do with the Zephyrites, then it’s been foreshadowed.

On #4… if nothing else, one questions how the Shadow ended up conveniently getting its head stuck in the Chamber where we can beat on it not once but several times. The best explanation I can come up with is that the Pale Tree is herself grabbing the Shadow and slamming it into the Chamber. The vines the Shadow creates in the Chamber paralyses the Tree, allowing it to extricate itself and resume pounding on the Tree – we destroy the vines, the Pale Tree grabs the Shadow again, and the cycle repeats.

If you look just above the dragon when it becomes vulnerable, you’ll see that branches form right above it between the Omphalos Chamber walls. So yes, the Pale Tree is grabbing the Shadow of the Dragon and holding him down for you to attack.

versidia.4520:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

Humans start worshipping other deities, like the Grawl, starting their great civil wars…

The only humans that worshiped other deities – that’s known to us – would be splinter cults, and those groups did not wage wars.

What about the War in Kryta?

Yeah, for some reason my mind skipped over the White Mantle and thought “Sacred Griffon of Amnoon” (a griffon that was worshiped by some humans who lost their faith in the Five while in the Crystal Desert) and “Cult of the Stone Faces” (ancient stone head statues worshiped by a phony cult in Istan)…

draxynnic.3719:

Pandaman.4758:

I really didn’t think #3 was a possibility because without the appropriate foreshadowing, pulling a deus ex machina like that would be simply terrible writing. In LS2 we haven’t had any indication that there’s something challenging Mordremoth other than our own characters, so I am fairly confident it’s not one of the possibilities. Of course, it could just be terrible writing, in which case I’ll give up on trying to speculate because it could be laser butt unicorns for all I know.

It’s true that there could have been others supporting from outside, but the post-battle dialogue just makes it sound like they were completely taken off guard and completely baffled why the Shadow left. It certainly could be a case of the writer limiting each character’s situational awareness to what they realistically can perceive, so their dialogue would reflect not being aware of other people attacking from below (though that would be strange, since it’s hard to miss people shooting up at a chamber with a dragon crawling all over it), but I don’t think the writers are going to be so subtle over that level of detail.

Coincidences happen, and if what called the Shadow away had to do with the Zephyrites, then it’s been foreshadowed.

On #4… if nothing else, one questions how the Shadow ended up conveniently getting its head stuck in the Chamber where we can beat on it not once but several times. The best explanation I can come up with is that the Pale Tree is herself grabbing the Shadow and slamming it into the Chamber. The vines the Shadow creates in the Chamber paralyses the Tree, allowing it to extricate itself and resume pounding on the Tree – we destroy the vines, the Pale Tree grabs the Shadow again, and the cycle repeats.

It’s hard to see the Zephyrite attack as a foreshadowing, primarily because it doesn’t have any elements that suggest something is opposing Mordremoth (we’re not seeing mysterious third parties intervene in fights, nor any evidence or something other that our side killing Mordremoth’s minions) or competing for control over his minions (no inconsistencies in their actions, they’ve all been gunning after magic and killing anything that gets in their way, which is pretty much expected dragon behavior), which would be the basis of what can suddenly distract the Shadow. It could just be a coincidence, but it’s in writing a coincidence that comes out of nowhere to solve a problem is a dues ex machina, which is a crutch used by bad writers; I’m giving the ANet writers the benefit of the doubt by assuming they’re not bad writers (despite how much people hate Scarlet), which leads me to conclude it couldn’t have been a distraction.

Then again it could be laser butt unicorns.

I didn’t really get the impression the Shadow was getting its head stuck in the chamber, it distinctly felt like it was crawling all over the chamber to try to get at you and tries to smoke you out (so to speak) with vines when it fails to do so, then gets impatient and tries to claw its way back in again after a while. Of course, my impression was based entirely on the fact that I used a ranger, so I spent the entire time being amused at it failing to get close.

RP-wise my main character would kill dangerous old Asuran mutant in cold blood, then would remove his guards and then ask Taimi who will be the next candidate to represent Asura mutants.

Friends will be friends.

Pandaman:

The first chapter of the Living Story saw a sylvari, who appeared to be doing Mordremoth’s bidding, trying to kill the Master of Peace. The Master of Peace than departed deeper into the Maguuma on a mission of his own – which elicits comments from the biconics about why the leader of the Zephyrites would leave his people in a time of need.

The Master of Peace is doing something that’s more important to him than staying to help his people. It’s entirely likely that his mission might have done something to attract Mordremoth’s attention. If so, that’s most definitely not a deus ex machina – it’s a Chekhov’s gun that was fired offscreen.

Or it could be that, y’know, we came unexpectedly close to killing Mordy’s only dragon champion so far, and Mordy and/or the champion simply decided it wasn’t worth dying for a failed mission/to finish off a possibly already mortally wounded Pale Tree.

As for getting stuck – I didn’t see the branches Konig did, but I was laying into it with a hammer so I was up close and personal with its head. It didn’t look like it was trying to get at me (after all, I was right there. With a hammer) – up close, it looked to me like it was frantically trying to extract itself before I cracked open its wooden skull.

Gaebriel.3754:

Actually, as a Commander of the Pact I think it is way more in-character that the player character defers to the Council Asura, instead of giving in to Taimi who – despite being a traveling companion and genius – is still a child and has acted irresponsibly several times throughout the story. That’s of course very much in-character for her, but from the viewpoint of a Commander it is clearly the better choice to defer to the experienced Asura of the Council. Phlunt might be a snarky kitten like most of them, but he probably didn’t obtain his position (in a culture that seems to be based on meritocracy) by being incompetent.

Forgive me if this point was addressed above, but isn’t a major plot point in the DE book and in Asura lore that the Council are not the cream of the crop?
The Council is formed from Asuran with modest academic achievements who failed to find adequate reasons to not be on the Council.

In this context, doesn’t seem like Phlunt wants to use the waygate tuning research as his ticket off of the council? Which is about as self-motivated a member of the three colleges can get; any other forms of self-motivation would drive that Asuran out of the colleges and into other entities (Orders, pirates, Inquest, etc)

Chris.3290:

Gaebriel.3754:

Actually, as a Commander of the Pact I think it is way more in-character that the player character defers to the Council Asura, instead of giving in to Taimi who – despite being a traveling companion and genius – is still a child and has acted irresponsibly several times throughout the story. That’s of course very much in-character for her, but from the viewpoint of a Commander it is clearly the better choice to defer to the experienced Asura of the Council. Phlunt might be a snarky kitten like most of them, but he probably didn’t obtain his position (in a culture that seems to be based on meritocracy) by being incompetent.

Forgive me if this point was addressed above, but isn’t a major plot point in the DE book and in Asura lore that the Council are not the cream of the crop?
The Council is formed from Asuran with modest academic achievements who failed to find adequate reasons to not be on the Council.

In this context, doesn’t seem like Phlunt wants to use the waygate tuning research as his ticket off of the council? Which is about as self-motivated a member of the three colleges can get; any other forms of self-motivation would drive that Asuran out of the colleges and into other entities (Orders, pirates, Inquest, etc)

Regardless, there are rules in the Asuran society. If any invention made by a student is property of the school they are in until graduation, then that is how it is. It doesn’t matter which official office Phlunt has.

If we would break any society’s rules, it would reflect badly on the Pact.

Angel McCoy.1832:

“I remember WWII and how the kittens killed all those people.”

If Kirk hadn’t let Edith get hit by that truck, kittens might be ruling the world today.

On topic: all three of my characters who have done this (two humans and an asura) adore Taime but support Phlunt holding on to her device.

Also: it was Shake ’n Bake for Dragon and the Pale Tree helped.

As to who sent the dragon and who is ultimately behind everything aw come on guys you know it’s Snaff! Hint: Scruffy’s recently developed autonomous mode played right into Snaff’s hands. Handily. Ahem.

Chris.3290:

Forgive me if this point was addressed above, but isn’t a major plot point in the DE book and in Asura lore that the Council are not the cream of the crop?
The Council is formed from Asuran with modest academic achievements who failed to find adequate reasons to not be on the Council.

In this context, doesn’t seem like Phlunt wants to use the waygate tuning research as his ticket off of the council? Which is about as self-motivated a member of the three colleges can get; any other forms of self-motivation would drive that Asuran out of the colleges and into other entities (Orders, pirates, Inquest, etc)

So far, we only have Ludo/Zudo’s word for that in-game. Events that take place in the early asuran storyline seem to imply otherwise:

- In the Synergetics storyline, your krewe leader betrays you for the Inquest to get a spot on the Council (even claiming it has “ten times the prestige, ten times the power” of being known as a genius).

- Haia or Kudu tries to kill the Council or most of them on differing second arc paths, presumably to have more power/prominence for themselves. You’d think that would just leave them with more work to do.

So, despite said claims of the Council not being a spot most want to be on, some seem to consider it worth killing for. Literally.

Palador.2170:

Gaebriel.3754:

Actually, as a Commander of the Pact I think it is way more in-character that the player character defers to the Council Asura, instead of giving in to Taimi who – despite being a traveling companion and genius – is still a child and has acted irresponsibly several times throughout the story. That’s of course very much in-character for her, but from the viewpoint of a Commander it is clearly the better choice to defer to the experienced Asura of the Council. Phlunt might be a snarky kitten like most of them, but he probably didn’t obtain his position (in a culture that seems to be based on meritocracy) by being incompetent.

/sigh

You have a point. However, expecting Taimi to just roll over and take it is wrong.

She didn’t. She pitched a fit, stormed off, and almost got killed. THEN she agreed.

Was it nice of Phlunt? No. It still happened. It happens in real life all the time, although I doubt many of them involve children (could be wrong!). No, it wasn’t fair. But there is a very old saying about that.

It got him to come to the table, though. And, technically, he did say he would “hold it in trust” until she came of age – although I am about as likely to believe he’ll follow through as any of you are. But I’m sure that, by then, Taimi will have ways of making sure he does. She’s a bright girl – and, like any Asura, unlikely to ever forget a slight. If it comes down to a battle of wits between them, I’d put my bet on Taimi.

Duke Darkwood.4237:

If it comes down to a battle of wits between them, I’d put my bet on Taimi.

I still want to just punt Phlunt off a cliff. I mean, why do we need a battle of wits for this. Come on. The dude cowed in the corner the moment any sort of combat started. It would be so easy to dispose of him!

In fact, if the rest of the council is as cowardly as he is, we might as well just do a Pact takeover of the Asuran council. Then we can put Trahearne in place as the “secret” council lead. LOL.

Labjax.2465:

Duke Darkwood.4237:

If it comes down to a battle of wits between them, I’d put my bet on Taimi.

I still want to just punt Phlunt off a cliff. I mean, why do we need a battle of wits for this. Come on. The dude cowed in the corner the moment any sort of combat started. It would be so easy to dispose of him!

In fact, if the rest of the council is as cowardly as he is, we might as well just do a Pact takeover of the Asuran council. Then we can put Trahearne in place as the “secret” council lead. LOL.

I nominate Steward Gixx as Asuran overlord!

Duke Darkwood.4237:

Palador.2170:

Gaebriel.3754:

Actually, as a Commander of the Pact I think it is way more in-character that the player character defers to the Council Asura, instead of giving in to Taimi who – despite being a traveling companion and genius – is still a child and has acted irresponsibly several times throughout the story. That’s of course very much in-character for her, but from the viewpoint of a Commander it is clearly the better choice to defer to the experienced Asura of the Council. Phlunt might be a snarky kitten like most of them, but he probably didn’t obtain his position (in a culture that seems to be based on meritocracy) by being incompetent.

/sigh

You have a point. However, expecting Taimi to just roll over and take it is wrong.

She didn’t. She pitched a fit, stormed off, and almost got killed. THEN she agreed.

Was it nice of Phlunt? No. It still happened. It happens in real life all the time, although I doubt many of them involve children (could be wrong!). No, it wasn’t fair. But there is a very old saying about that.

It got him to come to the table, though. And, technically, he did say he would “hold it in trust” until she came of age – although I am about as likely to believe he’ll follow through as any of you are. But I’m sure that, by then, Taimi will have ways of making sure he does. She’s a bright girl – and, like any Asura, unlikely to ever forget a slight. If it comes down to a battle of wits between them, I’d put my bet on Taimi.

Especially when you take into account that, unless she’s killed off by a George R.R. Martin wannabe on the writing team, she’ll either fight an elder dragon or assist in the defeat of one, which will make her a hero like Zojja and Snaff. I’m sure she’ll be able to pull some strings by then.

I did not like it ether. Not so much part that they took it, its the way it was done. The player asked Taimi to do so. But i did not want to. It would be different if the other members persuaded her, the player should had a choice to support her decision or give over the device, even if the outcome would be the same.

Ice of Dragons.1637:

I did not like it ether. Not so much part that they took it, its the way it was done. The player asked Taimi to do so. But i did not want to. It would be different if the other members persuaded her, the player should had a choice to support her decision or give over the device, even if the outcome would be the same.

Then this thread would have been called “I’m not okay with my choices not influencing the story” and in the end nothing would have changed.

Taimi is a minor and a student under the protection and care of the College of Synergetics. Councillor Phlunt is a high ranking official in Asuran society who agrees to assist Taimi under the stipulation that a recently-demonstrated, volatile, dangerous device that she has created be turned over to the College of Synergetics for study/research/improvement.

Think of it this way.

Let’s say that you are friends with a twelve year old in the real world. This friend is very smart for her age, but is sickly and spends a lot of time in the hospital. Despite this, she is incredibly intelligent.

This friend of yours somehow gets her hands on hospital materials and supplies, and tinkers about in her spare time until she creates a device that can potentially cure let’s say ebola. Now let’s say that the device has a 12% chance to mutate ebola into an extremely virulent strain rather than curing it, causing more damage.

Would you, in good faith, allow your friend to cling onto this device simply because she devised it; or in the interest of the greater good, allow the CDC to snatch it up for it to be improved upon by experts in the field, potentially creating a permanent cure?

Taimi is a child who has a solid idea regarding what it is she’s doing, but no reasonable way to actually understand the ramifications of her work, let alone the potential consequences.

She acted like a child because, shock, she’s a child. I was angry at her the entire time she moaned and furious when she ran away. Rather than being proud of her work and its role in saving the world, she decided that if she couldn’t have it then no one could. That’s just immature, which again is her character.

Don’t defend that behavior. I know I’m glad that my character didn’t. Taimi needs to grow up outside of Asuran society and learn lessons like this so that she can eventually make that self-righteous mess of a society better as an adult.

Hmm, I’m sorry but that’s a false dichotomy. I would’ve preferred to cover for Taimi and claim guardianship over the device under the name of the Pact and the Priory since it was a.) primarily designed to counteract the activities of an elder dragon and b.) completed with my assistance. The idle conversation among Phlunt’s associates suggests that there are people in the council that favors Zojja anyway.

Arcane Council Guard: Such questionable fraternization should be closely monitored.
Arcane Council Guard: Agreed. The council has been too lenient with Zojja since Snaff’s passing. Her recent activities are especially concerning.
Arcane Council Guard: Entrusting a progeny with critical projects, allowing her to run around with those reckless door busters.
Arcane Council Guard: At least they keep her and her golem out of sight.
Arcane Council Guard: How true. (chuckle)

The fact of the matter is that under Asuran law she answers to the council, not to the pact.

Kerithlan.1659:

The fact of the matter is that under Asuran law she answers to the council, not to the pact.

She does. I don’t. I don’t see the council running into Durmand Priory taking possession of their asuran inventions. Sure, Taimi might not be a member, but I am a commander of the pact and I’m overseeing this process. The original agreement was for the council to verify whether the device is working or not. Adding further stipulations should’ve at least warranted further discussion considering how the device affects more than just asura.

Leo Paul.1659:

I nominate Steward Gixx as Asuran overlord!

Hehe.

Angel McCoy.1832:

“I remember WWII and how the kittens killed all those people.”

best

draxynnic.3719:

Pandaman:

The first chapter of the Living Story saw a sylvari, who appeared to be doing Mordremoth’s bidding, trying to kill the Master of Peace. The Master of Peace than departed deeper into the Maguuma on a mission of his own – which elicits comments from the biconics about why the leader of the Zephyrites would leave his people in a time of need.

The Master of Peace is doing something that’s more important to him than staying to help his people. It’s entirely likely that his mission might have done something to attract Mordremoth’s attention. If so, that’s most definitely not a deus ex machina – it’s a Chekhov’s gun that was fired offscreen.

Or it could be that, y’know, we came unexpectedly close to killing Mordy’s only dragon champion so far, and Mordy and/or the champion simply decided it wasn’t worth dying for a failed mission/to finish off a possibly already mortally wounded Pale Tree.

As for getting stuck – I didn’t see the branches Konig did, but I was laying into it with a hammer so I was up close and personal with its head. It didn’t look like it was trying to get at me (after all, I was right there. With a hammer) – up close, it looked to me like it was frantically trying to extract itself before I cracked open its wooden skull.

I finally got around to redoing the LS (slightly delayed by laggy weekend and old video card literally shooting sparks at me, I did not know they could do that) for achievements and admit that you’re right that the Master of Light’s activity is the foreshadowing; the final vision has the Shadow flying toward pillars of light erupting from a field of crystals, which is either a Zephyrite or Kralkatorrik thing (latter not being likely).

Well, I could have told you that it’s physically possible, but actually making it happen… whoah! What did you do to it? :o

Nilkemia.8507:

Chris.3290:

Forgive me if this point was addressed above, but isn’t a major plot point in the DE book and in Asura lore that the Council are not the cream of the crop?
The Council is formed from Asuran with modest academic achievements who failed to find adequate reasons to not be on the Council.

In this context, doesn’t seem like Phlunt wants to use the waygate tuning research as his ticket off of the council? Which is about as self-motivated a member of the three colleges can get; any other forms of self-motivation would drive that Asuran out of the colleges and into other entities (Orders, pirates, Inquest, etc)

So far, we only have Ludo/Zudo’s word for that in-game. Events that take place in the early asuran storyline seem to imply otherwise:

- In the Synergetics storyline, your krewe leader betrays you for the Inquest to get a spot on the Council (even claiming it has “ten times the prestige, ten times the power” of being known as a genius).

- Haia or Kudu tries to kill the Council or most of them on differing second arc paths, presumably to have more power/prominence for themselves. You’d think that would just leave them with more work to do.

So, despite said claims of the Council not being a spot most want to be on, some seem to consider it worth killing for. Literally.

This has kinda been addressed, actually. Basically, the short form is that there are some places on the council that have real power – those few places there are tend to be hotly contested by those asura with politician-like leanings.

Most, though, are a set of “it’s a dirty job, but someone’s got to do it” posts – which are usually given out as a supposed honour to asura that have distinguished themselves in some fashion, but weren’t able to get out of the way of the appointment. Asura in these positions are usually constantly looking out for some patsy to hand the burden off too.

draxynnic.3719:

Well, I could have told you that it’s physically possible, but actually making it happen… whoah! What did you do to it? :o

I’d like to know too, it was a Sapphire Radeon HD6950 that I got about three years ago, while it ran pretty warm out of the box (idled at 50°C) it never had any problems up until the very moment it failed (which I assume was the motherboard’s “oh sweet baby jesus what have you done, I’m cutting power to prevent any damage” function); I just popped open the case to see if there was too much dust or a fan failure, hit the power button, and it suddenly turned into a tiny Zeus, spitting lightning and thunderclouds at me.

Well, sparks and magic blue smoke, but still.

Sounds like you went overboard with the lightning magic. I once had a videocard commit suicide when I turned on the computer, a puff of smoke and it was gone