Guild Wars 2

…Eir and Faolain? I finally continued the HoT story and finished that chapter yesterday. And I was heavily disappointed. It felt pointless, cheap, only for ridiculous drama that was not needed. (This is just my personal opinion, however.) It just brings up some questions.

1.) Will we even see Caithe’s response to learning Faolain’s death? She had been such a central figure to Caithe’s story, and there was a love-hate dichotomy going on (Caithe still had feelings for Faolain, but hated the fact that she had turned evil, and therefore took many things she did personally. One needs only look at the whole flashback scenes from last LS season). So surely Caithe will feel something? And what other implications does that create?

2.) Why Eir, specifically? Out of all of Destiny’s Edge, why Eir? Yeah, I know her son is in DE 2.0, but that’s not a good enough excuse. It just seems to put focus on just the Norn member of DE, and so anyone who knows of this future event who creates a Norn will have the knowledge that their mentor will die in the future. But, why? It just feels so unnecessary. I really do not want this new group to be the “new” Destiny’s Edge since they really don’t interest me like the original members did. I also just feel nothing for this cheap move of ANet’s. No shock, no sadness, just…confusion.

3.) Why? That’s all I want to know. Why kill those two at all? Cheap drama, that’s all it is. I’ve had a day to think it over, and I still don’t get it. Living Story has really soured my outlook of the GW2 world and characters, especially with Dry Top, Silverwastes, and HoT maps being a chore to play in.

As I understand it, various characters in the original story were voiced by voice actors that are too high profile i.e. that hardly have time to appear in living world / expansion story. This is one reason why they moved away from DE 1.0 to DE 2.0.

That combined with wanting the story to have real impact and wanting to give you a sense of urgency in HoT leads to deaths.

As for why Eir specifically? Well.. She was DE’s leader, something you as a player took over. And as you said, Braham’s story arc probably had a lot to do with it.

The thing that bothers me about Faolain is that the expansion had a lot of potential to learn more about the Nigthmare Court, where the nightmare comes from, what their ideals are, how the NC and Modremoth impacted each other etc. But Anet delivered on none of that.

Diovid.9506:

As I understand it, various characters in the original story were voiced by voice actors that are too high profile i.e. that hardly have time to appear in living world / expansion story. This is one reason why they moved away from DE 1.0 to DE 2.0.

That combined with wanting the story to have real impact and wanting to give you a sense of urgency in HoT leads to deaths.

As for why Eir specifically? Well.. She was DE’s leader, something you as a player took over. And as you said, Braham’s story arc probably had a lot to do with it.

The thing that bothers me about Faolain is that the expansion had a lot of potential to learn more about the Nigthmare Court, where the nightmare comes from, what their ideals are, how the NC and Modremoth impacted each other etc. But Anet delivered on none of that.

I have to agree, it feels like we got nowhere closer to learning more about the Nightmare and where it came from. Somehow, I doubt that Mordremoth is related to it, since Faolain is heard saying how Mordremoth’s rule is even worse (“onerous”, in her words) than being ruled by the Dream/Pale Tree – so that just leaves further mystery about it.

I’m still trying to process this story-telling decision (though I realize I am pretty late to finding it out), and their deaths are giving me the same dissatisfied, bad-taste-in-mouth, sensation that I got from Halo 5’s campaign…

They are consistently killing off characters to make room for cheaper voice actors.

Also because the part line is that all of the cuts made to HoT were made to enforce a sense of urgency in the storyline and not, you know, because it was too kitten expensive.

PopeUrban.2578:

They are consistently killing off characters to make room for cheaper voice actors.

Also because the part line is that all of the cuts made to HoT were made to enforce a sense of urgency in the storyline and not, you know, because it was too kitten expensive.

Those seem like lame excuses for ANet. I just dislike character deaths that are there just for cheap drama.

I kind of thought it was fitting that Eir was the one who died (and I loved Eir), just hear me out. I’ve only run a few dungeons so far so I don’t have all of the Destiny’s Edge story figured out, but between the dungeons I have run and the personal story, Eir is the one who has by far worked the hardest to bring Destiny’s Edge back together in order to help Tyria fight the elder dragons. Yea, superficially Caithe did the work, but really it was Eir doing stuff behind the scenes that brought them back together. When Eir is killed its a metaphor for how Destiny’s Edge is also done (which sorta makes sense as ANet clearly seems to be moving towards having Destiny’s Edge 2.0 be the main focus). They accomplished their goal of fighting, and killing, an Elder Dragon. Something that had been hanging over the group since Snaff was killed when Logan ran away from Kralkatoric. Along with the Pact they were torn apart by Mordremoth when storming the Magguuma jungle. Separated and imprisoned, Logan and Zojja are in bad shape from Mordremoth’s prison sacs, and can no longer fight (at least for now, they may recover who knows). Caithe went rogue in LWS2, completely abandoning the group. She came back in HoT but only because she feels like she is doing her dream mission, not to reform Destiny’s Edge. And now Eir is killed, sealing the deal. Destiny’s Edge is now officially done, both metaphorically and physically. The group is split up, now 2 are dead, 2 more are potentially taken out of the fight for good depending on how bad Mordremoth hurt them, 1 has been forever changed by the mists and the other one went rogue.

The only thing I didn’t like about it was that Eir was not allowed to go down fighting. She was taken down by a sucker punch from a coward trying to use her as bait so she could get away herself.

In a well-written, epic story, there are no sacred cows: every character (except the player’s) should be expected to be at risk. Game of Thrones goes overboard with this; Lord of the Rings is less tragic. Even besides this, LS 1, 2, & (I suspect 3) are taking us well beyond Destiny’s Edge, so regardless of any deaths, we’d have seen less of Eir, Logan, et al.

I’m sure cost is always a factor, but many returning V-Actors have impressive resumes, so I doubt this was a primary reason for choosing Eir to die. More significant, she has a special relationship with one of the members of DE 2.0 and her death just has a bigger impact than anyone else’s death.

Faolin — I think she had to die in order to do anything interesting with the future of the Sylvari and Nightmare Court — she’s just too doctrinaire to allow for the possibility of compromise (real or pretended) and the Sylvari have a lot to discuss now.

Incidentally, I’m not surprised that Faolin “sucker punched” Eir, but doing so in a way that put her own survival at risk seemed completely out of character — you want to run faster than your “bait,” not leave it dead on the floor so it can be jumped over.

I’m not surprised that Faolin did it either, but that doesn’t make me like it any more

/s

Well. eir had a stupid armor and faolain was a baddie but still intelligent enough to see a beatiful wide flesh-window that almost screamed “INSERT SWORD HERE for excellent kill”
So.. If they had designed a non stupid armor, like.. maybe something sensible she may have lived…

but eh,, Like where would one get the cheap drama that comes with killing off some character that you are used to ? They would need to get good authors and.. thsi here is videogames.. Good writing is something 99& of games fail at horribly.. Anet isnt the worst but their writing is just meh… Its okay, it does what its supposed to and you ignore it most of the time.its nit intrusive most of the time which is nice.

It’s almost certainly not because of high-profile actors. The actresses of Eir and Faolain don’t look particularly high-profile, especially when you’ve got better-known VAs like Troy Baker, Steve Blum and Kari Wahlgren voicing other DE members. No, it’s probably for drama, or due to the VAs not wanting to work on GW2 anymore for some reason.

I wish Eir had died in-character instead of like a suburban housewife though. I was really disappointed by the choreography of that scene, not so much that she died but the poor manner of it.

She’s fully capable of shapeshifting into a werewolf to fight (which she does in the norn personal story), is a master of wilderness survival, is a norn, and has fought creatures vastly more terrifying than a veteran vinetooth. Then she gets 1-shot without putting up a fight?

It would have been better if we’d found her half-dead from the crash, and then she passed away right there without any combat. I remember she complained about “no food or water for days”… except that again, she’s a wilderness expert? What? And she’s a norn, probably capable of going for weeks in inhospitable conditions, so again… what? And she’s a legendary hero… I mean surviving the basics shouldn’t even be an issue for Eir. Not to mention she goes for a run right after being released, so she’s not crippled. None of that sequence made sense for who and what Eir Stegalkin is.

The other thing is why on earth is Faolain there? Even after all these months, none of it makes any sense. The Open World story was much much better. After the first personal story mission to free Laranthir, it went rapidly down hill. I did like the personal story in Rata Novus though, that was good.

I also have to say, Braham needs to stop behaving like a sniveling human and think more like a norn. Less small-minded personal vendatta, more world-saving legendary dragon slayer. I really wish my norn would take him aside and give him a pep-talk… he needs to think bigger than his personal problems.

Cirian.8917:

I wish Eir had died in-character instead of like a suburban housewife though. I was really disappointed by the choreography of that scene, not so much that she died but the poor manner of it.

She’s fully capable of shapeshifting into a werewolf to fight (which she does in the norn personal story), is a master of wilderness survival, is a norn, and has fought creatures vastly more terrifying than a veteran vinetooth. Then she gets 1-shot without putting up a fight?

It would have been better if we’d found her half-dead from the crash, and then she passed away right there without any combat. I remember she complained about “no food or water for days”… except that again, she’s a wilderness expert? What? And she’s a norn, probably capable of going for weeks in inhospitable conditions, so again… what? And she’s a legendary hero… I mean surviving the basics shouldn’t even be an issue for Eir. Not to mention she goes for a run right after being released, so she’s not crippled. None of that sequence made sense for who and what Eir Stegalkin is.

The other thing is why on earth is Faolain there? Even after all these months, none of it makes any sense. The Open World story was much much better. After the first personal story mission to free Laranthir, it went rapidly down hill. I did like the personal story in Rata Novus though, that was good.

I also have to say, Braham needs to stop behaving like a sniveling human and think more like a norn. Less small-minded personal vendatta, more world-saving legendary dragon slayer. I really wish my norn would take him aside and give him a pep-talk… he needs to think bigger than his personal problems.

Agreed with practically all of this. Eir should have gone down fighting like the warrior she is. Unless if they meant for her pathetic death to intentionally make us angry at Mordremoth, or something. This is not the death I expected Eir to have. It’s pathetic.

I’m actually fed up with the attitudes of nearly all of the DE 2.0 characters. There’s nothing to make me care for them.

Her death made me angry at Faolain not Mordremoth. But yes I agree that she deserved to go down fighting and it was sad to see the way she was killed. If ANet is planning on killing any other DE members I hope that they get a fitting death and no more sucker punches

Moyayuki.3619:

PopeUrban.2578:

They are consistently killing off characters to make room for cheaper voice actors.

Also because the part line is that all of the cuts made to HoT were made to enforce a sense of urgency in the storyline and not, you know, because it was too kitten expensive.

Those seem like lame excuses for ANet. I just dislike character deaths that are there just for cheap drama.

How is that a lame excuse. As certain voice actors demand more and more money, they become harder and harder for money to be spent on creating content to play. I don’t know about you but I think that’s a kitten ed good reason for a company to move away from a character.

At any rate, Eir is the oldest in Destiny’s Edge. She blamed herself for Snaff’s death. She was already passing on her legacy to someone. She said at the beginning of Guild Wars 2, if you played the norn story, that her time is over and that it’s time for someone to take her place.

The question wasn’t whether or not she should die but whether or not her death should be meaningful to a norn. Her death in combat, at the hands of Faolin’s betrayal really is a tale good enough for moots in Hoelbrak.

Vayne.8563:

Moyayuki.3619:

PopeUrban.2578:

They are consistently killing off characters to make room for cheaper voice actors.

Also because the part line is that all of the cuts made to HoT were made to enforce a sense of urgency in the storyline and not, you know, because it was too kitten expensive.

Those seem like lame excuses for ANet. I just dislike character deaths that are there just for cheap drama.

How is that a lame excuse. As certain voice actors demand more and more money, they become harder and harder for money to be spent on creating content to play. I don’t know about you but I think that’s a kitten ed good reason for a company to move away from a character.

At any rate, Eir is the oldest in Destiny’s Edge. She blamed herself for Snaff’s death. She was already passing on her legacy to someone. She said at the beginning of Guild Wars 2, if you played the norn story, that her time is over and that it’s time for someone to take her place.

The question wasn’t whether or not she should die but whether or not her death should be meaningful to a norn. Her death in combat, at the hands of Faolin’s betrayal really is a tale good enough for moots in Hoelbrak.

Sadly, she did not die in combat. She was skewered like a pig while trying to escape. That’s not noble at all, and any Norn that would present it as such would be dishonoring her by presenting such a bold-faced fabrication. The only way she can be given any honor is to be remembered for what she did in life, not how she died. Because that’s very miserable, un-noble death for a Norn, IMO.

Too bad Brahm is such a lame character (IMO), he doesn’t seem worthy of being handed a legacy. Everyone in DE 2.0 is a sorry excuse for a hero.

First of all – in this type of product, you can’t expect the “plot” to have any deeper meaning. Most likely you event don’t have single author like in case of a book, but rather a multitude of people. Some perhaps only perhaps writing a single “chapter”.

Basically, the “story” part of HoT is quite poor. I mean the quality of the story as a whole, is one of the worst
excuses for a story based in a fantasy world.

I can’t say the original story line from GW2 was that great – mostly on a level of rather under-average cheap fantasy book. But that’s sort of normal – usually the “stories” in the computer games/MMOS are just like that.
The characters in most race part of story are rather one dimensional and uninspiring. (Most – because I personally found that someone somehow managed to give more dimension to Eir’s character – and that’s one of the reasons she was the one to get killed off)
So , as i said the original story was rather average – but still – compared to HoT story it was a marvellous masterpiece. HoT story – feels like something that was forced because it just had to be there.
Like person(s) responsible for it did as some sort of punishment, and therefore they went as quick as possible to get it over with and basic recipe is “Just write anything to make people go from point A to point B”.

Therefore :
ad1) Do not expect any response or follow up. I would not have been surprised if people involved in HoT story haven’t had a clue about previous stories. Besides it wasn’t necessary in story-line based on “go from A to B”. You just had to reach that boss in the end.
ad2) Like I mentioned – I believe somehow Eir was a character that seemed to have some realistic personality. You need to have some writing talent and experience to “write” that character.
You can easily see that writing a story involving a character that while obviously a strong hero, but also plagued with guilt, probably rather charismatic as a “leader” of DE to writing a story involving a character, that well is rather impulsive simpleton and not much besides.
So it’s easier to sacrifice a character you are unable to maintain. Also it creates “drama” .
ad3) Cheap drama. “look at me i’m soo original, I’m killing of characters !”

Moyayuki.3619:

Vayne.8563:

Moyayuki.3619:

PopeUrban.2578:

They are consistently killing off characters to make room for cheaper voice actors.

Also because the part line is that all of the cuts made to HoT were made to enforce a sense of urgency in the storyline and not, you know, because it was too kitten expensive.

Those seem like lame excuses for ANet. I just dislike character deaths that are there just for cheap drama.

How is that a lame excuse. As certain voice actors demand more and more money, they become harder and harder for money to be spent on creating content to play. I don’t know about you but I think that’s a kitten ed good reason for a company to move away from a character.

At any rate, Eir is the oldest in Destiny’s Edge. She blamed herself for Snaff’s death. She was already passing on her legacy to someone. She said at the beginning of Guild Wars 2, if you played the norn story, that her time is over and that it’s time for someone to take her place.

The question wasn’t whether or not she should die but whether or not her death should be meaningful to a norn. Her death in combat, at the hands of Faolin’s betrayal really is a tale good enough for moots in Hoelbrak.

Sadly, she did not die in combat. She was skewered like a pig while trying to escape. That’s not noble at all, and any Norn that would present it as such would be dishonoring her by presenting such a bold-faced fabrication. The only way she can be given any honor is to be remembered for what she did in life, not how she died. Because that’s very miserable, un-noble death for a Norn, IMO.

Too bad Brahm is such a lame character (IMO), he doesn’t seem worthy of being handed a legacy. Everyone in DE 2.0 is a sorry excuse for a hero.

She was running until she stopped to try to help Faolin who stabbed her. But she was NOT running when she met her death. She stopped and looked it in the eye. She knew, but she didn’t turn away. That’s a story you can tell at a moot.

Maybe it has to do with the voice actors .. they just cant bring them back again and again…

The one thing that irks me is how stupid this all was. I mean, Faolain backstabbed her out of pure spite, wasting time to do that that could have been better used running away. And to add pain to the injury, Eir’s death ended up totally unheroic.

I have no problem with the fact she died, but the way it happened just makes me roll eyes at Anet’s screenwriting. Though at least it was not Scarlet-level bad.

Moyayuki.3619:

Cirian.8917:

I wish Eir had died in-character instead of like a suburban housewife though. I was really disappointed by the choreography of that scene, not so much that she died but the poor manner of it.

She’s fully capable of shapeshifting into a werewolf to fight (which she does in the norn personal story), is a master of wilderness survival, is a norn, and has fought creatures vastly more terrifying than a veteran vinetooth. Then she gets 1-shot without putting up a fight?

It would have been better if we’d found her half-dead from the crash, and then she passed away right there without any combat. I remember she complained about “no food or water for days”… except that again, she’s a wilderness expert? What? And she’s a norn, probably capable of going for weeks in inhospitable conditions, so again… what? And she’s a legendary hero… I mean surviving the basics shouldn’t even be an issue for Eir. Not to mention she goes for a run right after being released, so she’s not crippled. None of that sequence made sense for who and what Eir Stegalkin is.

The other thing is why on earth is Faolain there? Even after all these months, none of it makes any sense. The Open World story was much much better. After the first personal story mission to free Laranthir, it went rapidly down hill. I did like the personal story in Rata Novus though, that was good.

I also have to say, Braham needs to stop behaving like a sniveling human and think more like a norn. Less small-minded personal vendatta, more world-saving legendary dragon slayer. I really wish my norn would take him aside and give him a pep-talk… he needs to think bigger than his personal problems.

Agreed with practically all of this. Eir should have gone down fighting like the warrior she is. Unless if they meant for her pathetic death to intentionally make us angry at Mordremoth, or something. This is not the death I expected Eir to have. It’s pathetic.

I’m actually fed up with the attitudes of nearly all of the DE 2.0 characters. There’s nothing to make me care for them.

Sigh…this again.

Ok. Let’s think about this. She survived a crash okay? And most likely, she didn’t survive it unharmed. So already, she could’ve been half dead.

They crashed in enemy territory. Guess what that means? Enemies attacked her and any other survivors. And I really doubt she was taken prisoner without a fight.

So, injuries from crash, injuries from fights, now being forced to march for probably days, and being denied food and water. It’s not that she couldn’t find it, it’s being held prisoner they kept it from her. And chances are, torture could’ve been involved too.

In summary. We have a norn who survived a crash from thousands of feet in the air, fight off modern for as long as she could till captured. Forced to march with injuries, and denied food and water for days, and maybe tortured. And finally, she was confronted by an enemy she apparently never saw before. She doesn’t know how it fights, or what it’s capable of. She was at a disadvantage.

The way people are describing her, if she had faced any dragon one on one, she’d win

Honestly? Bad writing and poor plotting. It was meant to create a dramatic effect and further character development for the new characters. In this case, especially Braham.

But never underestimate a smart reader or player who can see what’s really happening.

In other words, the plot required it, and that’s why it happened. Players recognized it for what it was: a stupid, throwaway decision solely based on circumstances and opinions outside the story itself.

Trahearne anyone?

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Honestly? Bad writing and poor plotting. It was meant to create a dramatic effect and further character development for the new characters. In this case, especially Braham.

But never underestimate a smart reader or player who can see what’s really happening.

In other words, the plot required it, and that’s why it happened. Players recognized it for what it was: a stupid, throwaway decision solely based on circumstances and opinions outside the story itself.

Trahearne anyone?

All of Halo 5: Guardians is a good example of this.

Vayne.8563:

Her death in combat, at the hands of Faolin’s betrayal really is a tale good enough for moots in Hoelbrak.

Stated like that, it sounds noble. As it played out in the instance, I thought it was …blase. It’s within Eir’s character to help an enemy escape a fate-worse-than-death; it’s within Faolin’s character to bite the hand that frees her. What seemed out of character was Faolin failing to ensure her own survival first.

Anyhow, I have no problem with Eir dying — on the contrary, prior to this, only GW2 Red Shirts died, which seems unrealistic. Heck, Rytlock dropped down a wormhole to who knows what (not us: we still haven’t found out where he went off to) and lived to talk about it (and introduce a new prof, conveniently in time for the expansion).

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Heck, Rytlock dropped down a wormhole to who knows what (not us: we still haven’t found out where he went off to) and lived to talk about it (and introduce a new prof, conveniently in time for the expansion).

Since when did he start talking about it?

He’s gone out of his way to NOT tak about it, probably because he has some super-secret LS3 related bombshell to drop that we’ll all be completely unsurprised by when it eventually hits our screens because of Anet’s ham-handed attempts at foreshadowing and clues.

At the very least Eir’s death wasn’t predictable. Could she have gone out better? Yeah. Did she need to die for the story? Probably.

However, it would have been a better moment if she tried to fight alongside, beat up as she was, us and in stead went down halfway through the fight and was finished off by Faolain, who stabs her in a misguided attempt to appease mordremoth to save her own skin and escapes.

The way it went down it just seems like faolain stabbed her for no good reason, and she decided to sacrifice herself so we could escape, and then we were like “nah, escaping is for pansies, sucks your mom died braham”

PopeUrban.2578:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Heck, Rytlock dropped down a wormhole to who knows what (not us: we still haven’t found out where he went off to) and lived to talk about it (and introduce a new prof, conveniently in time for the expansion).

Since when did he start talking about it?

He’s gone out of his way to NOT tak about it, probably because he has some super-secret LS3 related bombshell to drop that we’ll all be completely unsurprised by when it eventually hits our screens because of Anet’s ham-handed attempts at foreshadowing and clues.

Rytlock does that all the time, and I think Anet thinks its funny or something.

“Hey Rytlock, how did you come by that flaming sword?” – Rox
“Now’s not the time for that” – Rytlock

“Wow sir! How did you come by those new abilities?” – Rox
“I’ll tell you some other time.” – Rytlock

Lets face it, Rox is basically the lore community wanting to know more and asking those questions, and anet just giving us a rope around for now >.>. Its getting annoying.

Serophous.9085:

PopeUrban.2578:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Heck, Rytlock dropped down a wormhole to who knows what (not us: we still haven’t found out where he went off to) and lived to talk about it (and introduce a new prof, conveniently in time for the expansion).

Since when did he start talking about it?

He’s gone out of his way to NOT tak about it, probably because he has some super-secret LS3 related bombshell to drop that we’ll all be completely unsurprised by when it eventually hits our screens because of Anet’s ham-handed attempts at foreshadowing and clues.

Rytlock does that all the time, and I think Anet thinks its funny or something.

“Hey Rytlock, how did you come by that flaming sword?” – Rox
“Now’s not the time for that” – Rytlock

“Wow sir! How did you come by those new abilities?” – Rox
“I’ll tell you some other time.” – Rytlock

Lets face it, Rox is basically the lore community wanting to know more and asking those questions, and anet just giving us a rope around for now >.>. Its getting annoying.

That made me chuckle. =)

They want to eventually replace Destiny’s Edge with DE mkII so by LS5 all the PC’s realize they’re the old guard and give up adventuring to make way for Guild Wars 3: Wings of the Concords.

Realistically they probably wanted you to feel some impact or impetus from the event to use as a driver towards great jungle McGuffin. It just made me irritated that they couldn’t take most everyone else out as well, but that’s just me.

1- Er what? We did see Caithe response to Foalin death. She accept she is no longer her self and she need to be put down.

2- A common troupe. Someone actually predicted the outcome months befoe HOT came out. It’s somewhere in this forum bury somewhere.
Even then, it make sense to me seeing how the new DE had lost someone in the past and present and it’s the usual death of a close one make the person stronger.

3- See 2

People die in real life all the time regardless of position in society, why would a story be subject to different rules? George Patton died in a car accident and he was kind of the Destiny’s Edge of WWII.

Because in a novel or story, we have a different standard. Yes, real life is random, but we expect better from our entertainment.

Quite a few hacks in publishing wish a story wouldn’t be subject to different rules, but when you ask people to spend money on said story . . . different rules will apply.

Yes, life is random. But the plot to a story shouldn’t be. Ever.

Hesacon.8735:

People die in real life all the time regardless of position in society, why would a story be subject to different rules? George Patton died in a car accident and he was kind of the Destiny’s Edge of WWII.

But this isn’t real life, this is a video game. I expect fictional stories to handle certain things differently. Main characters with quite the life behind them shouldn’t die pathetically, in my opinion. Sure, characters can react to death the same way people in real life would, but I’d rather see an iconic character of a story die in a way that is fitting for them.

Moyayuki.3619:

But this isn’t real life, this is a video game. I expect fictional stories to handle certain things differently. Main characters with quite the life behind them shouldn’t die pathetically, in my opinion. Sure, characters can react to death the same way people in real life would, but I’d rather see an iconic character of a story die in a way that is fitting for them.

Main characters certainly can die pathetically, but it depends on the tone of the story and what a pathetic death achieves. A grand figure dying pathetically can lend strength to a tone of indifference/apathy to life, the pointlessness of material wealth/grandeur, the banality of all human accomplishment in the march of time, etc.

But in a game like GW2 (read: saturday morning show tone), where every allied death is mourned by the stars themselves and enemies are cut down like so many stalks of wheat with neither mercy nor remorse, where the world is innately magical and populated with humans from another world saved by the gods themselves, and where a world-ending force-of-nature dragon was killed by airship pew-pew and the power of friendship seems to be the ultimate force in plot-armor; it makes little to no sense beyond a weak attempt at making the player feel an emotional reaction.

Moyayuki.3619:

Hesacon.8735:

People die in real life all the time regardless of position in society, why would a story be subject to different rules? George Patton died in a car accident and he was kind of the Destiny’s Edge of WWII.

But this isn’t real life, this is a video game. I expect fictional stories to handle certain things differently. Main characters with quite the life behind them shouldn’t die pathetically, in my opinion. Sure, characters can react to death the same way people in real life would, but I’d rather see an iconic character of a story die in a way that is fitting for them.

Excuse me for thinking an excursion deep into hostile enemy territory where the big bad enemy destroyed the fleet without flinching might be wrought with peril.

I really like Cirian’s idea, although I imagine if I were to re-write that scene, I’d first have Eir shapeshift into Wolf form, let her engage the big bad in full cinematic glory, then revert the control back to the player.

Cue a countdown timer, as well as a change in music (set to an even more frenetically paced tempo and raised pitch), players are then fed a new objective: Reach Eir before the timer expires.

Unbeknownst to the players, regardless of whether they reach Eir in time or not, Eir still dies. Once players reach a certain distance from Eir, the game triggers another cinematic where Eir is tragically killed in battle. gasp

Although, come to think of it, maybe players would be totally enraged at the fake timer and we’d have a riot on the forums. Lol.

Hesacon.8735:

Moyayuki.3619:

Hesacon.8735:

People die in real life all the time regardless of position in society, why would a story be subject to different rules? George Patton died in a car accident and he was kind of the Destiny’s Edge of WWII.

But this isn’t real life, this is a video game. I expect fictional stories to handle certain things differently. Main characters with quite the life behind them shouldn’t die pathetically, in my opinion. Sure, characters can react to death the same way people in real life would, but I’d rather see an iconic character of a story die in a way that is fitting for them.

Excuse me for thinking an excursion deep into hostile enemy territory where the big bad enemy destroyed the fleet without flinching might be wrought with peril.

Zone wrought with peril =/= make a main character die lamely. I wasn’t attacking your previous comment. Just saying how in fictional stories things are handled differently than real life, though it doesn’t mean that many real-life issues, emotions, etc. can’t still exist. That’s all I was saying.

Yeah, Eir’s death just didn’t make any sense now that I think about it. There was no history and tension presented to us between them that would justify such a death. It was a total waste.

Hesacon.8735:

Excuse me for thinking an excursion deep into hostile enemy territory where the big bad enemy destroyed the fleet without flinching might be wrought with peril.

Peril is one thing. Having someone die to the screenwriting equivalent of slipping on something and bashing your head in is another.

Astralporing.1957:

Peril is one thing. Having someone die to the screenwriting equivalent of slipping on something and bashing your head in is another.

I lol’ed.

In the case of Faolin they had an interview sometime and said it wa to show how evil and ruthless Mordremoth is.

But this just killed off and huge opportunity for a longer HoT game where you would work with the Nightmare court and learn more about them and maybe even like them a little more.

With Faolin dead now I couldn’t care less about the court, they missed out on a golden opportunity with that one.

Suppose they picked Eir because they thought you’d feel more because of the reuniting and becoming closer with her son, but because that section was so short and was not covered much people just didn’t care as much. More often than not it seems their failings in story and getting people invested seems to come from rushed content or intentionally short sections that, in an MMO that was originally very story focused, which seems stupid since its strong story, like gw 1, picked it up.

Faolain acting like that didn’t surprise me much but it does suck since I was hoping for more Nightmare Court stuff from her. Hopefully Duchess Crysanthea will come through for us there. I actually couldn’t take that scene seriously due to the facial expressions going on.
Eirs death still makes me sad though. I see why they would do it but y’know.
I’m actually more salty about Trahearne still personally.

Too bad Brahm is such a lame character (IMO), he doesn’t seem worthy of being handed a legacy. Everyone in DE 2.0 is a sorry excuse for a hero.

I agree about the legacy but I dunno, Braham/DE 2.0 have grown on me since we first met them. Although I will agree that some of the writing was poor with their parts.

Astralporing.1957:

Hesacon.8735:

Excuse me for thinking an excursion deep into hostile enemy territory where the big bad enemy destroyed the fleet without flinching might be wrought with peril.

Peril is one thing. Having someone die to the screenwriting equivalent of slipping on something and bashing your head in is another.

LMAO it really was a stupid death! At LEAST Eir could’ve gone out with dignity, like fighting off the mordrem by herself. Really, though, I’d keep her alive.

I don’t know what they were thinking with her.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

Her death in combat, at the hands of Faolin’s betrayal really is a tale good enough for moots in Hoelbrak.

Stated like that, it sounds noble. As it played out in the instance, I thought it was …blase. It’s within Eir’s character to help an enemy escape a fate-worse-than-death; it’s within Faolin’s character to bite the hand that frees her. What seemed out of character was Faolin failing to ensure her own survival first.

Anyhow, I have no problem with Eir dying — on the contrary, prior to this, only GW2 Red Shirts died, which seems unrealistic. Heck, Rytlock dropped down a wormhole to who knows what (not us: we still haven’t found out where he went off to) and lived to talk about it (and introduce a new prof, conveniently in time for the expansion).

I read that completely differently.

Faolin made sure Eir couldn’t run faster than her. She WAS ensuring her own survival. If Eir was faster, the creature would kill her first.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Faolin — I think she had to die in order to do anything interesting with the future of the Sylvari and Nightmare Court — she’s just too doctrinaire to allow for the possibility of compromise (real or pretended) and the Sylvari have a lot to discuss now.

Incidentally, I’m not surprised that Faolin “sucker punched” Eir, but doing so in a way that put her own survival at risk seemed completely out of character — you want to run faster than your “bait,” not leave it dead on the floor so it can be jumped over.

Maybe now they can explain who this Duchess Chrysanthea is. She just suddenly appeared at Dragon’s Stand, and we have no clue who she is, in terms of character. I don’t recall her being anywhere else ingame.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Maybe now they can explain who this Duchess Chrysanthea is. She just suddenly appeared at Dragon’s Stand, and we have no clue who she is, in terms of character. I don’t recall her being anywhere else ingame.

Right! Duchess Chrysanthea’s there out of nowhere. I like her, but I wish there’d been some story setting why Faolain had come to Maguuma with her Nightmare Court, what went wrong with her being captured by Mordremoth, how this new duchess came to be here and what her agenda was (perhaps she betrayed Faolain in a power grab?).

It was interesting that the Nightmare Court didn’t side with Mordremoth in the end. They became a true rebel faction like the Soundless.

It’s the ‘Game of Thrones Effect’ how I call it. Since killing off key characters is dramatic and I noticed in many shows that after GoT had this much success, many shows do it. It’s ‘in’. Also, GW2 got criticized by a lot of players to be too childish/Disney-like, harmless events and no one dies you love (well unless you loved Tybalt…).

Vayne.8563:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vayne.8563:

Her death in combat, at the hands of Faolin’s betrayal really is a tale good enough for moots in Hoelbrak.

Stated like that, it sounds noble. As it played out in the instance, I thought it was …blase. It’s within Eir’s character to help an enemy escape a fate-worse-than-death; it’s within Faolin’s character to bite the hand that frees her. What seemed out of character was Faolin failing to ensure her own survival first.

Anyhow, I have no problem with Eir dying — on the contrary, prior to this, only GW2 Red Shirts died, which seems unrealistic. Heck, Rytlock dropped down a wormhole to who knows what (not us: we still haven’t found out where he went off to) and lived to talk about it (and introduce a new prof, conveniently in time for the expansion).

I read that completely differently.

Faolin made sure Eir couldn’t run faster than her. She WAS ensuring her own survival. If Eir was faster, the creature would kill her first.

Um, what I mean is clearly she failed to ensure her own survival. The Faolin we know and love-to-hate was much better at on-the-spot & well-planned sneaky tactics. And what kind of serious foe would stop to nom on the downed norn when they could choose to have their Faolin & eat Eir too?

Maybe I’m expecting too much from an MMO story, but as soon as I saw Eir offer to help Faolin, I ‘knew’ what was going to happen — they’d both escape from the immediate danger and then Faolin would, as a way of showing her gratitude, stab Eir in the back and run away.

So maybe I’m just disappointed that Faolin behaved liked the scorpion in the Aesop fable

(You know, the one that convinces the frog to help her cross a river, despite the frog’s fear of being stung — she uses the line, “but why would I sting you; I would die, too?” Of course she does sting the frog who croaks out a final, ‘why?’ and the scorpion responds, “because I’m a freaking evil creature who can’t be relied on to ensure my own survival — like a 10-year old, I can’t delay my gratification for long enough to reach safety”. But I digress: yeah, I just thought it was simplistic rather than a simple+elegant resolution.)

ProtoGunner.4953:

It’s the ‘Game of Thrones Effect’ how I call it. Since killing off key characters is dramatic and I noticed in many shows that after GoT had this much success, many shows do it. It’s ‘in’. Also, GW2 got criticized by a lot of players to be too childish/Disney-like, harmless events and no one dies you love (well unless you loved Tybalt…).

The difference is that when they do it in those popular television properties those sudden deaths have context and meaning. They’re not just random offing of characters. They usually serve as the end of an important plot arc, a logical conclusion of a long held grudge, or a way to establish a relationship and grow other characters.

Eir’s death serves only as a character development lever for braham, but the WAY in which she died was so inappropriate in context and execution that it fell flat. It was obvious that she died because the plot needed her to, not because there was any compelling story arc that led to her death.

A sudden character death can be effective when done correctly. Since you mention Game of Thrones, all of the sudden deaths in that series served as critical plot points. I don’t want to spoil the show for anyone, but if you look back on those deaths they all make sense and are usually big payoffs for the overall narrative structure.

Eir’s death did not mark the end of any plot arc, or the beginning of any other plot arc. It was not a narrative payoff. It was just sort of tossed in in the middle of an existing arc in an effort to help develop an underdeveloped character, and in the end that character, Braham, was not significantly effected enough by it for it to have any gravity at all anyway.

Contrast that with Traherne’s death. Traherne’s death had meaning, it was a logic end to a plot arc, and it served a purpose. It was belivable that he died, it was impactful for the world around him, and it was a death fitting of both the charactar and the story. The same goes for your order mentor, Scarlet Briar, several major release villains, and a host of other GW2 characters that have died.

Stein and company CAN do better. They HAVE done better. In this case they simply dropped the ball, likely due to an accelarated development schedule or limited resources to turn the writing in to playable reality.

PopeUrban.2578:

ProtoGunner.4953:

It’s the ‘Game of Thrones Effect’ how I call it. Since killing off key characters is dramatic and I noticed in many shows that after GoT had this much success, many shows do it. It’s ‘in’. Also, GW2 got criticized by a lot of players to be too childish/Disney-like, harmless events and no one dies you love (well unless you loved Tybalt…).

The difference is that when they do it in those popular television properties those sudden deaths have context and meaning. They’re not just random offing of characters. They usually serve as the end of an important plot arc, a logical conclusion of a long held grudge, or a way to establish a relationship and grow other characters.

Eir’s death serves only as a character development lever for braham, but the WAY in which she died was so inappropriate in context and execution that it fell flat. It was obvious that she died because the plot needed her to, not because there was any compelling story arc that led to her death.

A sudden character death can be effective when done correctly. Since you mention Game of Thrones, all of the sudden deaths in that series served as critical plot points. I don’t want to spoil the show for anyone, but if you look back on those deaths they all make sense and are usually big payoffs for the overall narrative structure.

Eir’s death did not mark the end of any plot arc, or the beginning of any other plot arc. It was not a narrative payoff. It was just sort of tossed in in the middle of an existing arc in an effort to help develop an underdeveloped character, and in the end that character, Braham, was not significantly effected enough by it for it to have any gravity at all anyway.

Contrast that with Traherne’s death. Traherne’s death had meaning, it was a logic end to a plot arc, and it served a purpose. It was belivable that he died, it was impactful for the world around him, and it was a death fitting of both the charactar and the story. The same goes for your order mentor, Scarlet Briar, several major release villains, and a host of other GW2 characters that have died.

Stein and company CAN do better. They HAVE done better. In this case they simply dropped the ball, likely due to an accelarated development schedule or limited resources to turn the writing in to playable reality.

+1
You mention a lot of good points. I may not have seen all the GoT seasons, but I have read the books and even I can admit that all deaths did have purpose, context, and meaning, even the grisly ones.

Guess I will have to continue the HoT Living Story to see for myself if Braham changes at all. I haven’t really paid any attention to these new characters so far because they really don’t intrigue me in any way…

Cirian.8917:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Maybe now they can explain who this Duchess Chrysanthea is. She just suddenly appeared at Dragon’s Stand, and we have no clue who she is, in terms of character. I don’t recall her being anywhere else ingame.

Right! Duchess Chrysanthea’s there out of nowhere. I like her, but I wish there’d been some story setting why Faolain had come to Maguuma with her Nightmare Court, what went wrong with her being captured by Mordremoth, how this new duchess came to be here and what her agenda was (perhaps she betrayed Faolain in a power grab?).

It was interesting that the Nightmare Court didn’t side with Mordremoth in the end. They became a true rebel faction like the Soundless.

I have a feeling that it, and several out of the way areas that seem to pose no significance to the main story but seem like they could have, were cut products from what they wanted to do with the story. Would have been really nice to have her play somewhat of a good role in the story, explaining what the Nightmare Court were doing there, what they planned on doing, and what they will do now.

Moyayuki.3619:

PopeUrban.2578:

ProtoGunner.4953:

It’s the ‘Game of Thrones Effect’ how I call it. Since killing off key characters is dramatic and I noticed in many shows that after GoT had this much success, many shows do it. It’s ‘in’. Also, GW2 got criticized by a lot of players to be too childish/Disney-like, harmless events and no one dies you love (well unless you loved Tybalt…).

The difference is that when they do it in those popular television properties those sudden deaths have context and meaning. They’re not just random offing of characters. They usually serve as the end of an important plot arc, a logical conclusion of a long held grudge, or a way to establish a relationship and grow other characters.

Eir’s death serves only as a character development lever for braham, but the WAY in which she died was so inappropriate in context and execution that it fell flat. It was obvious that she died because the plot needed her to, not because there was any compelling story arc that led to her death.

A sudden character death can be effective when done correctly. Since you mention Game of Thrones, all of the sudden deaths in that series served as critical plot points. I don’t want to spoil the show for anyone, but if you look back on those deaths they all make sense and are usually big payoffs for the overall narrative structure.

Eir’s death did not mark the end of any plot arc, or the beginning of any other plot arc. It was not a narrative payoff. It was just sort of tossed in in the middle of an existing arc in an effort to help develop an underdeveloped character, and in the end that character, Braham, was not significantly effected enough by it for it to have any gravity at all anyway.

Contrast that with Traherne’s death. Traherne’s death had meaning, it was a logic end to a plot arc, and it served a purpose. It was belivable that he died, it was impactful for the world around him, and it was a death fitting of both the charactar and the story. The same goes for your order mentor, Scarlet Briar, several major release villains, and a host of other GW2 characters that have died.

Stein and company CAN do better. They HAVE done better. In this case they simply dropped the ball, likely due to an accelarated development schedule or limited resources to turn the writing in to playable reality.

+1
You mention a lot of good points. I may not have seen all the GoT seasons, but I have read the books and even I can admit that all deaths did have purpose, context, and meaning, even the grisly ones.

Guess I will have to continue the HoT Living Story to see for myself if Braham changes at all. I haven’t really paid any attention to these new characters so far because they really don’t intrigue me in any way…

Absolutely agree. They tried hard in GW2. It’s typical game story telling imo: mostly not so good. If you want good story, play ‘The Last of Us’ or ‘Mass Effect’ (1+2).