Guild Wars 2

This isn’t a very big deal, but I couldn’t help but find it incredibly odd that all of the sylvari NPCs, especially those two, left with everyone else through the portal, instead of staying behind to check up on their poor mother, who’s lying on the ground passed out and barely breathing.

Furthermore, when talking to Trahearne, he has nothing to say about the ordeal aside from wanting to go back to Fort Trinity asap (understandable, but your mom almost died honey). I didn’t recall seeing Caithe anywhere…? Atleast Laranthir expressed some concern.

I just found it distracting that Anet made all of the non-sylvari Destiny Edge v2 people show more concern for the Pale Tree than the important sylvari NPCs, the firstborn no less.

Yep. Makes no sense at all. You’d think he and the rest of the firstborn would be right up there ASAP to try and heal her, but no.

I thought that was weird too. Only the wardens and Sylvari PCs showed concern.

You’d think that the Firstborn would scream and run to their mother’s aid. Instead, they’re nowhere to be found when the PCs are fighting the dragon.

Maybe Anet just forgot to add their reaction to the scene OR there might be foul play at work. Just a thought.

(Some people are saying that they saw Caithe in this part of the episode, but she was non-existant in my instance. Hm…)

Don’t forget that these are Sylvari, not human. The maternal bond that humans exhibit may not be a thing for Sylvari. The Wardens worry/care because it is their hunt/job to protect the Pale Tree.

Also don’t forget, that is just an Avatar for the Pale Tree and the Tree itself is what you are in. Maybe the tree just didn’t have enough energy left from the attack to maintain the Avatar anymore.

What doesn’t make sense is that after the battle is over, they’re trying to heal an ethereal manifestation that for some unknown reason breaths.

Why does a manifestation of magic and ether breath? Why do they tend the avatar instead of the Pale Tree herself?

It makes perfect sense for Caithe and Trahearne to go down through the portal (the nameless wardens die up there, I noticed, hah!) since the avatar is nothing but that: an avatar. Something that is irrelevant to the wellbeing of the Pale Tree, something that didn’t even exist before the Nightmare Court’s existence.

Perhaps in some vague manner, healing the avatar transmits the healing magic into the tree itself?

Perhaps it’s the reaction of the younger wardens, while the firstborne know that fussing over the avatar isn’t going to do much, and instead focus on making sure the other leaders are safe and then tending to the tree as a whole?

Don’t forget Syvari may as well be Modramath’s minion, and Pale Tree just a betrayed champion of Modramath. It is very plausible that Syvari don’t have to serve Pale Tree anymore after their real master returned.

Also, many first born knows that the Pale tree is not the only tree.

Is it not possible Caithe is the one who called down this attack? She’s shifty and full of secrets. Or maybe Anise isn’t human, but a sylvari from times passed, and is seeking to undermine humanity and the rebel veggies to appease her mouldering master of the compost heap.

Canker Bush XI.7423:

Is it not possible Caithe is the one who called down this attack? She’s shifty and full of secrets. Or maybe Anise isn’t human, but a sylvari from times passed, and is seeking to undermine humanity and the rebel veggies to appease her mouldering master of the compost heap.

i think you forgot something /hands over tinfoil hat

First we say too much Trahearne and now not enough Trahearne?

It really won’t end well, either way.

Unfortunately Trahearne lived! Gotta love how he said what we were doing was also important. Thanks Trahearne! I’m surprised he didn’t say “this wont end well”.

Did not see Caithe at all. It is a bit strange.

It is apparently implied that anet couldnt get hold with the voice actors of trahearne and caithe could be the reasoning behind their silence, ill post the link once i found it again

Because of Caithe was the one with dark heart and somehow managed the attack…all named npcs were there after the dragon is gone but Caithe is nowhere to be found…humm

Considering Caithe is nowhere to be seen anywhere in the Grove after the attack (at least I couldn’t find her) my guess would be that as soon as the initial attack was cleared (but before the dragon shade showed up) she left to investigate how the Mordrem managed to infiltrate the Grove or something like that. Or perhaps she was simply watching from the shadows somewhere and knows there’s nothing she can do to help the Pale Tree directly since she’s not a healer or anything, so didn’t bother revealing herself. Or maybe she only revealed herself after you left the chamber.

As for Trahearne… yah, its a bit odd that he didn’t at the very least ask about the Pale Tree when you talked to him, if not rushing up directly after the dragon battle. Even the biconics showed concern about her and they aren’t even Sylvari.

OR it could be the firstborne understand it’s merely a projection of the pale tree, and fussing over the Avatar WILL NOT FIX the Tree itself.

Caithe may have left to go into the lower sections and see if Mordrem are still attacking the roots.

Simple reason: Trahearn is a jerk.

Actually I agree it’s probably because the voice actors couldn’t be reached. Seems like a good reason to not include those characters.

felessan.9587:

Simple reason: Trahearn is a jerk.

Actually I agree it’s probably because the voice actors couldn’t be reached. Seems like a good reason to not include those characters.

That would be a fair reason to not have them run up into the chamber and start using voiced dialogue with the Pale Tree herself, sure.

Doesn’t excuse Trehearne not asking you, the player, about the Pale Tree via unvoiced text when you talk to him afterwards, though.

It could be that they thought the safety of the other leaders were more importaint so they stayed down to make sure they were ok. They could have gone up after the player left to check on her.

citypigeon.6358:

This isn’t a very big deal, but I couldn’t help but find it incredibly odd that all of the sylvari NPCs, especially those two, left with everyone else through the portal, instead of staying behind to check up on their poor mother, who’s lying on the ground passed out and barely breathing.

Furthermore, when talking to Trahearne, he has nothing to say about the ordeal aside from wanting to go back to Fort Trinity asap (understandable, but your mom almost died honey). I didn’t recall seeing Caithe anywhere…? Atleast Laranthir expressed some concern.

I just found it distracting that Anet made all of the non-sylvari Destiny Edge v2 people show more concern for the Pale Tree than the important sylvari NPCs, the firstborn no less.

Especially that Trahearne is the first of the first. I did this on my human and before I left through the portal, I kept going back to talk to the wardens cause it seemed wrong to leave. (The wardens assured me that I could do nothing more and they would take it from there.)

Do only Sylvari see Caithe? I mean she walks right in front of you if you stand near Taimi after the procession. She is standing just south of the gate before that, really hard to miss. She completely vanished after that, though.

I doubt she would be responsible unless she snapped since we last saw her. She seems to want to protect the pale tree every other time in the past, I have no idea why she’d suddenly want to kill the pale tree when she had plenty of opportunity in the past.

No, I saw Caithe both as a Sylvari and a human. When the PC addressed the world leaders she was standing to the right of the Pale Tree’s Avatar (Mother, if you will). Then when the Mordrem attacked I lost sight of her being a little focused on killing things. But, since she is a thief I’m certain that her powers of stealth are more pronounced than others. I agree, as well, about Caithe probably not being responsible, unless she’d fallen into Nightmare to be with Faolain, after her failure to get Destiny’s Edge back together.

The only 2 characters I’d wanted to visit with again, were Caithe and Trahearne, and was a little disappointed that Anet probably couldn’t get the voice actors back

dkspins.4670:

I agree, as well, about Caithe probably not being responsible, unless she’d fallen into Nightmare to be with Faolain, after her failure to get Destiny’s Edge back together.

Um, why would she join the nightmare court after DEFEATING Faolain and breaking her power, and working with the reformed destiny’s edge in Arah?

Her joining the nightmare was the bad future possibility the pale tree showed, nothing more.

Nageth.5648:

Do only Sylvari see Caithe? I mean she walks right in front of you if you stand near Taimi after the procession. She is standing just south of the gate before that, really hard to miss. She completely vanished after that, though.

I doubt she would be responsible unless she snapped since we last saw her. She seems to want to protect the pale tree every other time in the past, I have no idea why she’d suddenly want to kill the pale tree when she had plenty of opportunity in the past.

It could be that those instances were bugged. I went through Episode 4 two times: Once on my main and the second time with my guild (a human character opened the instance). I didn’t see Caithe at all. I did hear the Quaggans mentions her, but that was it.

I’ll go through again for achievements. If I don’t see her, I’ll take screenshots and post them in the bug forum.

citypigeon.6358:

This isn’t a very big deal, but I couldn’t help but find it incredibly odd that all of the sylvari NPCs, especially those two, left with everyone else through the portal, instead of staying behind to check up on their poor mother, who’s lying on the ground passed out and barely breathing.

Maybe we’re not seeing the forest for the trees? Or is that the trees for the forest?!

Anyway Avatar of the Pale Tree != Pale Tree. Or that’s my thinking in any case, you know like how your monitor is not your computer. The part we see isn’t the whole.

So…

Kalavier.1097:

OR it could be the firstborne understand it’s merely a projection of the pale tree, and fussing over the Avatar WILL NOT FIX the Tree itself.

Caithe may have left to go into the lower sections and see if Mordrem are still attacking the roots.

This.

The avatar was the first to scream in pain when the mordrem attacked, well before the whole blackout thing with the shadow of the dragon came. I assume the attack was much stronger against the dream and the Pale Tree than against her avatar.
The avatar itself might be irrelevant. The shadow of the dragon might have been after Ventari’s Tablet initially.

Or maybe the Avatar is as much a way for the Pale Tree to feel as it is a way to express herself.

Regardless, the avatar must be a unique sylvari, being most connected to the Tree than any other. The Pale Tree might have experienced death through the deaths of other sylvari, but if the avatar dies, it might be an entirely other experience for her, something that might be more shocking.

As for Caithe, i am very suspicous of her. We know she has a dark part in her heart, and while that does not make her a courtier automaticly, her trying to reject that part of herself so much makes her … soundless in a way. As the nightmare, the dark part -is- part of the dream that protects sylvari from the dragon’s manipulation.

Her intentions might have been trying to show the leaders the true threat, confident that it would work with minimal losses and a hard lesson learned. She is such a paragon of unity. Why she disappeared right as the attack began? My best guess is sudden realization and/or guilt.

Sweetblue Huntress.9856:

citypigeon.6358:

This isn’t a very big deal, but I couldn’t help but find it incredibly odd that all of the sylvari NPCs, especially those two, left with everyone else through the portal, instead of staying behind to check up on their poor mother, who’s lying on the ground passed out and barely breathing.

Furthermore, when talking to Trahearne, he has nothing to say about the ordeal aside from wanting to go back to Fort Trinity asap (understandable, but your mom almost died honey). I didn’t recall seeing Caithe anywhere…? Atleast Laranthir expressed some concern.

I just found it distracting that Anet made all of the non-sylvari Destiny Edge v2 people show more concern for the Pale Tree than the important sylvari NPCs, the firstborn no less.

Especially that Trahearne is the first of the first. I did this on my human and before I left through the portal, I kept going back to talk to the wardens cause it seemed wrong to leave. (The wardens assured me that I could do nothing more and they would take it from there.)

I figured Trahearne reacting the way he did was more to do with how he deals with his emotions. He’s an awkward, secretive nightbloom who isn’t good with people, even his own , so he tends to bury stuff.

Terrified of his Wyld Hunt? Does research for 20 years to avoid facing it and his fear of failing. Distressed by the attack on the Pale Tree? Immediately wants to get away and start organising countermeasures. He’s one of those people who has to do something when he’s distressed. Also he may feel, as the eldest and as Pact Marshal, he has to put up a strong front.

I think a lot of this could probably apply to Caithe too, she leaves the crying and comforting to others while she sorts out the practical side of things.

Caith and Trahearne don’t emote so much as act. Don’t misunderstand this for coldness on their part.

I’m certain Trahearne and Caithe are getting down to business and it’s a personal vendetta now. They’re both the type that you don’t want to be on their list.

I also agree with the people reminding us that the Avatar isn’t the tree as a whole. I do believe it is a part of her though, and she interacts with this world through it.

What’s happening with the tree as a whole is manifested through the avatar. It’s not good… I really hope she’ll be alright.

Please don’t die Pale Tree! D:

Alot of these responses seem to just be making excuses. I.e. “they’re PROBABLY not too worried because the avatar isn’t really the tree” or “they’re PROBABLY dispersing themselves to heal other parts of the tree” (where is that even indicated?) or “Trahearne is too action-oriented to show any concern”.

Basically, these can all be possibilities that we can arrive at through deeper consideration. But that’s the thing. My main issue is that Anet made none of these things remotely evident in the writing. Atleast that was my impression..

It feels as though the charr NPCs had way more to say about Rytlock’s disappearance than did the sylvari NPCs about their mother’s life being endangered.

I’m not saying the firstborn should all be panicking and crying, but atleast more visibly acknowledge the gravity of this ordeal regarding their poor mother. After the World Summit’s last cutscene, my character would’ve only felt how serious the attack was based on the non-sylvari NPCs reactions, which is just a really odd, unrealistic imbalance. I just think Anet could’ve handled that scenario with a bit more depth and more realistically.

It was almost like my own character’s reaction when she found out that her sister was still alive.

“Uhm, okay, see ya around Debrah”

My theory is that Caithe’s secret we learned during the Twilight Arbor Aetherpath, is this:

Of course I would hate for it to be true, but I figured the theory isn’t bad

I think this goes with my theory that i stated in another topic that perhaps the pale tree manifested that thing from the dream somehow to get everyone to agree to the alliance and thats what made her so weak. the firstborn might have known that already which is why they weren’t worried

trying to find holes in this story is like trying to find a geek at an tech convention. they’re everywhere.

The OP makes a a good point, its minor but an obvious mistake. They should of kept them up there and stood around the pale tree to protect her. I don’t want to discredit what has been the best writing in a chapter so far.

Warcry.1596:

My theory is that Caithe’s secret we learned during the Twilight Arbor Aetherpath, is this:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

When speaking with Trahearne about the attack, saying it was too well timed, Caithe may have tipped off Mordremoth about the Summit, and got the Shadow of the Dragon sent there.

Of course I would hate for it to be true, but I figured the theory isn’t bad

Why? It got the leaders to agree that Mordremoth should get priority.

citypigeon.6358:

Alot of these responses seem to just be making excuses. I.e. “they’re PROBABLY not too worried because the avatar isn’t really the tree” or “they’re PROBABLY dispersing themselves to heal other parts of the tree” (where is that even indicated?) or “Trahearne is too action-oriented to show any concern”.

Basically, these can all be possibilities that we can arrive at through deeper consideration. But that’s the thing. My main issue is that Anet made none of these things remotely evident in the writing. Atleast that was my impression..

It feels as though the charr NPCs had way more to say about Rytlock’s disappearance than did the sylvari NPCs about their mother’s life being endangered.

I’m not saying the firstborn should all be panicking and crying, but atleast more visibly acknowledge the gravity of this ordeal regarding their poor mother. After the World Summit’s last cutscene, my character would’ve only felt how serious the attack was based on the non-sylvari NPCs reactions, which is just a really odd, unrealistic imbalance. I just think Anet could’ve handled that scenario with a bit more depth and more realistically.

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Half the reason I like Trahearne is because of the various fanart, comics and headcannons I found while surfing the net, before I’d got too far into the Pact storyline. They fleshed out his personality in a way the storyline failed to do, which made it easier for me to engage with him.

It’s seriously not a good look when the fans are doing a better job of portraying the characters with depth and personality than the writers are. It certainly shouldn’t be up to the fans to come up with excuses to explain away the gaping holes in a characters development or reaction to a situation.

I’m guessing that it might be Faolain. As Trahearne said, “I don’t know. But, I intend to find out. Someone with a heart full of darkness.” It just about utterly confirmed now that Mordremoth and the Nightmare are tied together, especially since they threw the Shadow of the Dragon at us.

Faolain is (still?) the leader of the Nightmare Court, she’s supposedly the one to have seen the darkness first, and she’s been missing in action for nearly two years now. If she wasn’t corrupted or under Mordy’s influence already, she probably very high on his hit list at the moment.

I have to admit, my suspicions are falling on Caithe here too. It was either Caithe or Anise, but Anise does genuinely seem to want to keep Jennah safe, so I doubt she’d have risked getting Jennah into harm’s way by allowing her to attend the summit if she knew Mordremoth was going to attack.

What REALLY made me suspicious of Caithe though, was something I spotted during the first fight. As most of us know, Caithe seems to vanish mysteriously before the end of the fight. She is seen battling the Mordrem with the rest of us, but during one of my playthroughs, I saw her disappear in not the usual thief’s stealth animation, but in the black vine tangle that appears beneath you when you’re hit by the Mordrem Lifeleecher’s vine attack. The kicker? You do not fight any Lifeleechers during the entire first fight, so there should be no vines anywhere.

So what does that mean? Perhaps “Caithe’s secret” is that she’s been corrupted by Mordremoth somehow and is, in fact, his sleeper agent in the Grove. Or perhaps Caithe was simply captured by Mordremoth during this attack (which would explain why she’s nowhere to be found after the attack) and she will now show up as an enemy the next time we meet.

I should add the caveat that I’ve only spotted the strange departure once. I’ve been trying to keep a close eye on Caithe on all my subsequent playthroughs, but it’s really tricky since I can’t pinpoint the trigger that makes her disappear, and there’s usually a lot of NPCs blocking the view.

That’s interesting Zaxares. As for what you mentioned TC, there is ONE possibility…the Pale Tree told the Firstborns still connected to her that there’s a chance the avatar could be killed, at which point they shouldn’t worry because as long as the tree itself survives, she could easily bring back the avatar.

I don’t get why people are having a hard time with the concept that the avatar and pale tree are technically the same. The avatar if you will is like the manifestation of the Pale Tree’s conscious that she made into the form of a Sylvari to put people at ease. The Avatar passing out and looking as if she’s dying is a mere reflection of the actual state of the Pale Tree.

There are 2 arguments from my point of view:

1- The Avatar and the Pale Tree go hand in hand, meaning if the Avatar dies then that’s a reflection that the Pale Tree is dead.

2- The Avatar being a manifestation that the Pale Tree creates is no indication that the Pale Tree lives. What I mean is that its possible that it takes effort for the Pale Tree to manifest this Avatar thus if she’s critically wounded she might not be able to manifest this image.

I honestly lean more towards the first. Regarding Caithe, as much as she’s my first choice when it comes to the person with a heart full of darkness that supposedly helped Mordy, I think it would be a good twist but I think that person was Faolain and I think Caithe went to see what Faolain’s been up to. I think Caithe’s secret is that the Darkness that her and Faolain encountered long ago (the one Faolain gave into) is Mordremoth and she’s known about him since then and that he’s linked to the Nightmare Court

Why is everyone trying to pin the blame of leaking the summit out to Mordremoth on particular NPCs? The summit was not some super secret meeting was it? I mean they had cheering crowds, a procession, plenty of people were watching it could have been any simple civilian?

I’m changing my guess to Phlunt.

He had the means to call down the attack (Taimi’s device), and if he knew it was coming he may have had some hidden trick to survive it. If everyone else in the meeting had died, then all other races and the Pact would have been leaderless. He, the sole survivor of that noble group, would have taken up the cause. He would have taken over command of the Pact, and through them the other races as they struggle to adapt to the loss of their leaders.

The only problem was that, unlike him, every other leader there could handle themselves in a fight. (Well, except for the tree.) Everyone survived, and now his plan is in ruins.

As for the Firstborn? Well, I expect Trahearne wanted to get back to the Pact to organize as big of an assault force as he can to protect the weakened Tree. I don’t know about the others.

What Caithe and Trahearne want to protect is the tree, not it’s mouthpiece. The Wardens can better kitten her damage if they can speak with the avatar and be directed to where healing and warriors need to be.

I wonder what is in her Chamber, to warrant a dragon, that Mordremoth wants. Maybe it was coming for the ambassadors, but we acted to quickly for it.

Ventari’s tablet?

The hero? :P

It will probably end as the Pale Tree getting killed/Dies. The hero will find a new tree without the dream or a different type of Pale Tree. Trahearne, Caithe and the hero will lead them there, through Maguuma. So like a Refugee type thing, minus Scarlet and the destruction of LA.

Kalavier.1097:

Ventari’s tablet?

The hero? :P

I’d say it wants the tablet.

It may not have started as an artifact, but there’s an awful lot of faith focused on that thing. That may have empowered it.

Palador.2170:

… faith…

Gross.

It probably wanted the avatar. Even though it’s just a mouthpiece, the tree itself is likely imbued with potent magic. If Mordremoth could eat the avatar, it might be able to channel it’s powers through the avatar to consume the Tree.

Ow whoopdiedo, Trehearne showing about as much emotion as a plastic bag. I’d be surprised if he did show a kitten .

Dont put to much thought into the events and how characters react. arenanet made a pretty broad world with quite a lot of significant events, but it has the depth of a kiddie pool. Because trying to tie everything into one cohesion will just take way to much time.
Remember how Braham and Rox didnt even recoginze the player character during pavilion event? Yeah…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What doesn’t make sense is that after the battle is over, they’re trying to heal an ethereal manifestation that for some unknown reason breaths.

Why does a manifestation of magic and ether breath? Why do they tend the avatar instead of the Pale Tree herself?

It makes perfect sense for Caithe and Trahearne to go down through the portal (the nameless wardens die up there, I noticed, hah!) since the avatar is nothing but that: an avatar. Something that is irrelevant to the wellbeing of the Pale Tree, something that didn’t even exist before the Nightmare Court’s existence.

You’re right that they should heal the tree, not the avatar. But I can recall the avatar saying something like “I can feel you now”, which could mean that the avatar is in fact a person with a direct uplink to the tree/dream. The uplink gets interrupted or atleast disturbet during the fight. So now this avatar loses it’s connection to the tree.

Canker Bush XI.7423:

Or maybe Anise isn’t human, but a sylvari from times passed, and is seeking to undermine humanity and the rebel veggies to appease her mouldering master of the compost heap.

That would explain her name, but that’s about it.

Spolier Alert….. Trahearne is actually a bad guy.

Think about it…. he was always there when kitten hit the fan….

Plus…. he is a necromancer….

reminds me a bit of this guy.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What doesn’t make sense is that after the battle is over, they’re trying to heal an ethereal manifestation that for some unknown reason breaths.

Ethereal?