Guild Wars 2

Kalavier.1097:

edit: To Redstar:, we also spent something on the order of minutes to maybe half hour/hour in the machine.

Scarlet was in there for days/weeks.

How do we know how long Scarlet was in there ?

Professor Omadd, Headmaster Emeritus of the College of Synergetics, anxiously twisted his ear as he waited for the sylvari woman to wake. She had been thrashing violently in the isolation module for days now, crying out random syllables and howling in…pain? Ecstasy? Omadd wasn’t sure. Even a genius of his caliber could only guess what was happening inside that leafy green head.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/

Oh hahahaha I only looked in the middle of the story when she says what she’s seeing xD.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They confirmed, over and over, Zhaitan is finished.

Again, that doesn’t mean his power is gone, and his corruption through Risen has stopped existing. As I floated above (and I am sure many before me have) – that’s probably part of why Tequatl suddenly turned into a real threat instead of a loot pinata.

(For a couple months anyway.)

True enough, although the devs did point out in the forums last week, anything said in interviews that isn’t specifically written into the game isn’t necs canon. I believe the word they used was “malleable”. A Zhaitan resurrection is admittedly unlikely, but not out of the question based on that.

I don’t understand how people see Zhaitan and his minions sickly green.

Artistic renditions show gray as prominent color, green just a little here and there.

On other hand, devs saying Zhaitan is dead, might be meaning that he will not appear in future update/expansions of GW2, while still leaving the actual death ambiquous.

Also the machine, very likely showed the machinations, not a record, unless proven othervise.

Pale Tree being in the middle, what I think, it tells about the tree having rooted into Tyria.
For Mordremoth, it’s obvious tool to get deeper into the innerworkings of Tyria.

Also there’s a book that was written by Ogden, even if it has speculations, he/she(?) says that the Dragons might be part of the Tyria.

All lore explained in the form of religion of the six gods, pretty much omit the dragons, because the main focus is humans in those writings. Holy books are like scrapbooks, bit by bit it’s put together.
There’s also possibility that the dragons might rival the human gods in power, more the reason to omit such info, since gods are supposed to be omni-potent.

Also that the bloodstones were used by the ancient races (Jotun, Dwarves, Seers, Forgotten, Mursaat) to seal away their magic, also created by the seers, but was taken into arah by the human gods meddling…

Now that I watched the wooden potato theory video, I have another theory:

Mordremoth awakened as it was shown, but was not strong enough to get up, so he/she began affecting Scarlet to bring about his/her rise, but couldn’t move due to some weird reason, the punch on the ley line hub caused a surge that helped Mordy to awaken completely.

Zhaitan too, awoke earlier than Kralkatorrik, except that he too stayed abit longer in his resting place, the “awakening” date is the day when Zhaitan got up, not necessarily exact waking up date.

Zaxares.5419:

As others have said, Zhaitan may be dead, but the magical energy he embodied is not gone. More than likely, it was simply transferred to another of his minions, most likely Tequatl, who is now in the process of evolving into the next Elder Dragon of Undeath. (Held back a little by the heroes who fight him in Sparkfly Fen.)

My thinking as well. It’s like how every single time you kill the Claw of Jormag or the Shatterer a new champion rises and takes his place, so too if the ED dies one of his champions rises to take his place.

Ranael.6423:

On a side note on the video I was wondering, if the spheres are the dragons, it should mean they are only six for the whole planet.

Maybe they’re the 6 main dragons and there’s a host of lesser dragons waiting around for their moment to shine.

Kain Francois.4328:

Zhaitan BETTER be alive, at least, some form of him.

ANET owes us a real final battle. And I want it to be a solo instance where we get to personally strike him with our sword.

Zhaitan doesn’t have to be alive for them to expand on the final fight. Just call it a retcon or something, I’m sure no one’s going to complain if they make the fight even more awesome.

Arghore.8340:

But also, the reason for the ‘construction’ of the bloodstones was to restrict the amount of magic in the world. It is said that the large amount of magic turned the world to chaos, so the bloodstones were constructed to restrain the magic available. And through that the 4 schools of magic came to be…

I was under the impression that current state-of-the-lore is that the Seers created an artifact to seal magic away to prevent it from being consumed by the dragons. When humans came to Tyria, both dragons and (for the most part) Seers were gone, so their gods released the magic from the artifact into the world. The power was too much for humans to use responsibly, so their gods passed sensible magic-control regulations, sealing the artifact with King Doric’s blood (hence, bloodstone), splitting the bloodstone into five pieces, with four of them used to define a particular school, and the fifth allowing for magic to be reunified.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that those schools map to the fundamental magics of Tyria; it could just be whatever the gods made up. Even if they did, they only include the magical energies that the Seers were able to save. If one class of magic had been fully consumed by a dragon or was just inaccessible to the Seers, it would not have been released back into Tyria when the gods gave Tyrians magic.

What if the orbs aren’t so much dragons as they are lands? At the next to last phase of the PS, Trahearne helps heal the land and break Zhaitan’s connection with it. It suggests that Orr had some actual nature-spirit associated with it that had been corrupted and suppressed by the dragon.

Maybe each orb corresponds to a different “land” like Orr, with Tyria the continent being the heart of the system, and the one land whose spirit is not yet corrupted by a dragon (and the Pale Tree has probably taken on a symbiotic, protective role in that regard).

So, e.g., Mordremoth is the corrupted spirit of Maguuma, etc.

RedStar.4218:

Ariella Goldstein.3562:

I’m going with this is what Scar saw, and Z wasn’t dead at the time. Just me though. But does our character get an innate understanding of the dragons after this, driven into their mind by a… wait, wrong game.

But we didn’t see the same thing as her. We didn’t see a thorny vine strangling the Pale Tree, nor did we see new Sylvari being born and others withering.

I doubt we would have seen things exactly the same as Scarlet or anyone else for that matter. Whatever the Commander of the Pact saw would be different because it was being filtered through a different set of perceptions. It’s make sense that Scarlet saw vines where the Commander, who has pretty much come to think in more military terms would have seen the attack as more direct. And also saw the effect of said attack differently aka the corruption of the tree.

Human gods, norn spirits, elder dragons and what else there is in that regard are all just facets of the eternal alchemy.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Varajar_Fells_Notebook
Although our PC has seen the eternal alchemy, the pc did not become all-knowing by it.

While Zhaitan may be dead, the part of the alchemy he was a facet of may still be there, with Grenth probably also being another facet of the same part of the alchemy.
Just like Kormir has become a part of the eternal alchemy by taking Abbadons place, another creature may someday become the replacement for Zhaitan.

Jski.6180:

So maybe we are mixing things up if the rotating is them being awalk then why would smashing into the world be them awaking agen? I belive the full green is zhaitan and his smashing into the center orb is representative of his death the gray green must be morde becoming full active. I think what happning is zhaitan power is or has become one with the pail tree or terya (not sure how you spell it.)

Zhaitan isn’t falling into the center. Look at the scene. The dark green globe falls in, it spreads, we zoom in towards it like it’s the eye of Sauran spotting us, and then you hear the same rumble of a growl we heard during the conclusion of Season 1. The globe that fell in the center is Mord – Zhaitan’s globe remains “inactive” on the outside because we put him back to sleep while the others wait their turn.

RedStar.4218:

But we didn’t see the same thing as her. We didn’t see a thorny vine strangling the Pale Tree, nor did we see new Sylvari being born and others withering.

There’s probably more to that vision we will uncover later if we are to visit it again. Just like how when Shepard first interacted with the Prothean Beacon, he needed a cipher to decrypt the rest. The Pale Tree may even have a role to play in a part of it.

Randulf.7614:

True enough, although the devs did point out in the forums last week, anything said in interviews that isn’t specifically written into the game isn’t necs canon. I believe the word they used was “malleable”. A Zhaitan resurrection is admittedly unlikely, but not out of the question based on that.

SIGH.

The actual wording was more like “Take game as top tier canon, things below it (MAINLY interviews!) can POSSIBLY change.”

I really, really am getting tired of everybody seeming to parrot the line as going about EVERY SINGLE THING as a “Oh it’ll likely change.” or “It might change because it’s not stated ingame so we can’t say it factually!”

Kain Francois.4328:

Zhaitan BETTER be alive, at least, some form of him.

ANET owes us a real final battle. And I want it to be a solo instance where we get to personally strike him with our sword.

Yes, the 5 or six foot tall human stabbing the 500m+ LONG dragon to death.

I’m sorry, but if that happened I’d be kittened off at the writers. Especially if you killed him and weren’t brutally murdered akin to an ant attacking an armored knight.

FrostSpectre.4198:

I don’t understand how people see Zhaitan and his minions sickly green.

Artistic renditions show gray as prominent color, green just a little here and there.

Because his glow in Arah storymode basically. And how at times his corruption has a green tint (But most of those times it’s also relating to poisoned areas in the land).

But yeah, almost all of the Risen are actually greys and not greens :P.

Ronin.7381:

Jski.6180:

So maybe we are mixing things up if the rotating is them being awalk then why would smashing into the world be them awaking agen? I belive the full green is zhaitan and his smashing into the center orb is representative of his death the gray green must be morde becoming full active. I think what happning is zhaitan power is or has become one with the pail tree or terya (not sure how you spell it.)

Zhaitan isn’t falling into the center. Look at the scene. The dark green globe falls in, it spreads, we zoom in towards it like it’s the eye of Sauran spotting us, and then you hear the same rumble of a growl we heard during the conclusion of Season 1. The globe that fell in the center is Mord – Zhaitan’s globe remains “inactive” on the outside because we put him back to sleep while the others wait their turn.

To me them not moving means they are asleep once a small beam of light that comes from the center the start to move that is them awakening why would smashing into the center and exploding be another awaking? Though i could be wrong there more to the orbs then just the dragons though the dragons are part of the orbs there just seems to be more being said there that we do not simply have the full story.

we don’t even know if elder dragons can completely die.

Kalavier.1097:

Randulf.7614:

True enough, although the devs did point out in the forums last week, anything said in interviews that isn’t specifically written into the game isn’t necs canon. I believe the word they used was “malleable”. A Zhaitan resurrection is admittedly unlikely, but not out of the question based on that.

SIGH.

The actual wording was more like “Take game as top tier canon, things below it (MAINLY interviews!) can POSSIBLY change.”

I really, really am getting tired of everybody seeming to parrot the line as going about EVERY SINGLE THING as a “Oh it’ll likely change.” or “It might change because it’s not stated ingame so we can’t say it factually!”

What it really should be seen as is this:

Information in game

This is canon, and while it may be contradicted if it is something spoken or written, events themselves won’t be changed. Treat all sources you come across in game which are not firsthand with some suspicion.

Information from NPCs

NPCs are prone to lie, be mistaken, or just have bad research backing their information. (See: Lornar’s Pass and the “dwarven summoning stone” presumed to be Deldrimor.) Approach all information from NPCs with skepticism unless it matches firsthand knowledge.

Information from out-of-game writing

Inapplicable to the game canon and is mainly a means of seeing things the game cannot properly show us yet. Treat all of this as interesting side-stories, but do not count on the information being completely accurate as it is told from a “third person limited” point of view.

Information from interviews, podcasts, posts

Information spoken by developers has the potential to be adjusted later, even when said “this is concrete”. Until it makes it directly into the game, it should be approached with caution and not taken as absolute proof of anything. It may be the gospel Word of God in some terms, but as we all know . . . Gods change.

Jski.6180:

Ronin.7381:

Jski.6180:

So maybe we are mixing things up if the rotating is them being awalk then why would smashing into the world be them awaking agen? I belive the full green is zhaitan and his smashing into the center orb is representative of his death the gray green must be morde becoming full active. I think what happning is zhaitan power is or has become one with the pail tree or terya (not sure how you spell it.)

Zhaitan isn’t falling into the center. Look at the scene. The dark green globe falls in, it spreads, we zoom in towards it like it’s the eye of Sauran spotting us, and then you hear the same rumble of a growl we heard during the conclusion of Season 1. The globe that fell in the center is Mord – Zhaitan’s globe remains “inactive” on the outside because we put him back to sleep while the others wait their turn.

To me them not moving means they are asleep once a small beam of light that comes from the center the start to move that is them awakening why would smashing into the center and exploding be another awaking? Though i could be wrong there more to the orbs then just the dragons though the dragons are part of the orbs there just seems to be more being said there that we do not simply have the full story.

Because of the process involved when a dragon awakens. We have seen this with Primordus basically:

1. First the Champion of the dragon awakens.
2. This Champion has some minor power to corrupt.
3. This Champion uses these forces … (likely to clear the path, and to collect some magical artifacts, so ‘The Dragon’ can have his morning coffee, likely with a bit of sugar).
4. The Dragon Awakens from slumber, and kittens start hitting the fan…

So, the light coming from the center to awaken the Dragons, can mean, ok this is the Cue for the Champion to Awaken (most of them are also in slumber like their boss, f/e see Drakkar in Drakkar lake (Champ of Jormag). This process sort of follows rather fast after eachother, all ‘the forces’ represented by the Champs and ‘a minor’ corrupted force start to prepare for their master (the orbs are now all swinging around). Now say ‘if X amount of magical artefact are ground up and the brew is producing it’s aroma, the Champ awakens the Dragon whom now knows his coffee is ready’ … NOW (well obviously after the Dragon finishes his coffee, with an episode of ‘Tyrian Daily’, just to catch up on events of the day) The Kitten hits the fan, the orb hits the Center, ‘Bingo’ the Dragon Awakens with all its might, power and roar. His/Her army grows, his/her influence stretches, Magic is consumed by the masses, the end is neigh!!

Orrrrr…

The light emanating means all the Dragons awake (forget the above), all the dragons are flying around doing their thing. Omnomnomagic… Cue the heroes, they struggle, they learn, they fight, BOOM! Dragon is dead ! … All the consumed magic of ages, still lingering in his body is released at once, and like any living thing his ‘life energy and magic’ is returned to the Mists, to be used to create new life… But no system is prepared for such an amount of raw dragon magic, instead, the magic takes over, the dragon lives, although be it from some sort of ‘afterlife’…
Aka. the tree of life, and the circle of life/magic, is flushed by the magic released from Zaithans death…

Either way, Duck! for kitten chunks are the flying around…

Vol.7601:

Well we never saw it’s corpse soooooo I eagerly await the next time Trahearne takes credit for everything.

Assuming he doesn’t get killed by Mord this season…

Actually….

;]

Jski.6180:

Ronin.7381:

Jski.6180:

So maybe we are mixing things up if the rotating is them being awalk then why would smashing into the world be them awaking agen? I belive the full green is zhaitan and his smashing into the center orb is representative of his death the gray green must be morde becoming full active. I think what happning is zhaitan power is or has become one with the pail tree or terya (not sure how you spell it.)

Zhaitan isn’t falling into the center. Look at the scene. The dark green globe falls in, it spreads, we zoom in towards it like it’s the eye of Sauran spotting us, and then you hear the same rumble of a growl we heard during the conclusion of Season 1. The globe that fell in the center is Mord – Zhaitan’s globe remains “inactive” on the outside because we put him back to sleep while the others wait their turn.

To me them not moving means they are asleep once a small beam of light that comes from the center the start to move that is them awakening why would smashing into the center and exploding be another awaking? Though i could be wrong there more to the orbs then just the dragons though the dragons are part of the orbs there just seems to be more being said there that we do not simply have the full story.

I don’t think he’s awakening, I think it’s showing you assimilation of Tyria itself. Hence the vines in mass (we’re not talking sprouts) attack Concordia. It shows reach. Besides, that doesn’t explain why Prim, Kral, Jorm, and Bubb are all active as well; for a time so was Zhaitan. Wouldn’t they all be crashing into center one after another and eventually piling on top of each other?

The Ice Mage.4879:

Vol.7601:

Well we never saw it’s corpse soooooo I eagerly await the next time Trahearne takes credit for everything.

Assuming he doesn’t get killed by Mord this season…

Actually….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5luP2G_kitten

eep in mind you can no longer see that and it was taken out of the game. Also, Devs commenting on Zhaitan implied that Arah EXP was supposed to have Zhaitan’s presence in some form or another and they identify that corpse as “A dragon” not “The Zhaitan”. So there were a lot of plans but quite a bit was stripped which isn’t uncommon, that’s how DLCs come about actually. What we can infer is that they wanted to do more but made a conscious decision to step on the breaks.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Enough-of-your-GMPC-please/first#post4173255

Angel McCoy.1832:

The whole “Commander” topic is another discussion entirely.

Personal Story spoilers

hide spoiler

Bottom line is that, at the beginning of the Pact (almost 2 years ago in-game time), you were “The Commander.” After Zhaitan was killed, the Pact continued on and you went off into the world to do stuff. At that point, other commanders were brought on, and you become “A Commander.” And you became a commander who had lots of other things to do besides running an army that was repairing, preparing, and stocking up for the next big battle with the Elder Dragons. We could not build a story on that alone, not a good one that made sense, not considering where we want the story to take you. Any time anyone calls you “The Commander” now, it’s someone being nostalgic. It’s perhaps more correct to say you were “The First Commander.” That helps us explain why you’ve been running around the world saving people as opposed to being locked in a war room with Trahearne. I’ll see what I can do to get this explanation into the game.

In conclusion, I’ll just say again that we do pay attention to the forums, and thank you for posting your thoughts.

onemantankwall.3641:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Enough-of-your-GMPC-please/first#post4173255

Angel McCoy.1832:

The whole “Commander” topic is another discussion entirely.

Personal Story spoilers

hide spoiler

Bottom line is that, at the beginning of the Pact (almost 2 years ago in-game time), you were “The Commander.” After Zhaitan was killed, the Pact continued on and you went off into the world to do stuff. At that point, other commanders were brought on, and you become “A Commander.” And you became a commander who had lots of other things to do besides running an army that was repairing, preparing, and stocking up for the next big battle with the Elder Dragons. We could not build a story on that alone, not a good one that made sense, not considering where we want the story to take you. Any time anyone calls you “The Commander” now, it’s someone being nostalgic. It’s perhaps more correct to say you were “The First Commander.” That helps us explain why you’ve been running around the world saving people as opposed to being locked in a war room with Trahearne. I’ll see what I can do to get this explanation into the game.

In conclusion, I’ll just say again that we do pay attention to the forums, and thank you for posting your thoughts.

If it’s not in game it can be changed. Also why orb representing Zaithan is still moving than?

For one its zhaitan for 2 you have no clue what the orbs are about until anet provides you with the answer, for 3 it was in the game but later removed due to zhaitans redesigned size and their lack of time to do anything with his spirit (which i can also provide links to said interview if u prefer…. Before you start trying to argue with a devs statement try to learn to spell the topics name not being rude, just saying……. Anet is done with zhaitan via ps and has stated so, you can theory-craft your heart out but its pointless to try to go against a creator of the actual game atm anet says zhaitans dead, just gotta deal with it

And yes because of the removal of his body anet can easily say oh look hes still alive and we wanna do this with him even though we stated many times hes dead. They left that option if they ever wanted to take it but atm its a very turn off topic for them, they believe they finished zhaitans story and have nothing else to add to it (or they would of before mordy) him still being alive could of been an alternative to the scarlet/mordy ls but they rather push their limits and try something new thats appealing to the community, zhaitan was a rather stale story, everyone hated destinys edge especially trehearne, they scrapped it and id say they made the right move…… Ls ch2 is a HUGE success

Ronin.7381:

The Ice Mage.4879:

Vol.7601:

Well we never saw it’s corpse soooooo I eagerly await the next time Trahearne takes credit for everything.

Assuming he doesn’t get killed by Mord this season…

Actually….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5luP2G_kitten

eep in mind you can no longer see that and it was taken out of the game. Also, Devs commenting on Zhaitan implied that Arah EXP was supposed to have Zhaitan’s presence in some form or another and they identify that corpse as “A dragon” not “The Zhaitan”. So there were a lot of plans but quite a bit was stripped which isn’t uncommon, that’s how DLCs come about actually. What we can infer is that they wanted to do more but made a conscious decision to step on the breaks.

Well, I didn’t intend for my post to be taken super seriously…but really? o.o
That “dragon” looks pretty Zhaitanish to me; Zhaitan was pretty unique in that it had those snakelike tendrils and kitten…and you can make some of those out in that video.

There was discussion two weeks ago resolving timeline of Sylvari. It was stated several times in interviews that Secondborn appeared 6~7 years after Firstborn. Now in-game lore regarding Scarlet contradicts that. In such event devs stated that in-game facts trumps reviews. Also Angel told us to take everything told in reviews with grain of salt.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Interesting-things-in-Scarlet-s-Room-Spoilers/page/5#post4193104

Idea change constantly. Maybe they planned for Zhaitan(happy now?) to be dead while writing Personal Story, but maybe now they changed their plans.

It wasnt a interview it was a fourms post ONLT A FEW DAYS OLD lol im sorry but ur hopes and dreams are just hopes and dreams like i said they do have a small hole to bring him back but they simply wont because he along with destiny edge is done with, i could see u trying so very hard to hope for them to bring the 2 back but they couldnt get access to destiny edges voice actors so they introduced bi-conics and a new dragon, ur simply stuck in the past ik zhaitan fight felt horrible but it is what it is I personally would love zhaitan to reemerge so that i could kill him like a real hero should…. But ik it wont happen, because they along with the story has moved on

I hope to god we dont just pew pew mordy like we did zhaitan i’d be a very sad panda

I think the more logical conclusion is that we did not see the Eternal Alchemy. Maybe it was a previous recording of what was seen by Scarlet…maybe it was just imagination.

There are just too many errors in the movie and lore for it to make sense to be the Eternal Alchemy.

If it is though, then maybe we should consider the fact that it could exist out of time, and thus there doesn’t need to be a chronology to it.

Normally I’d say:

Angel McCoy.1832:

If every single person in this fantasy world knew your name and knew that YOU were the one at the forefront of killing Zhaitan, then it wouldn’t be very realistic.

Zhaitan was killed.

But then:

BobbyStein.2315

Unless we’ve built content around something, it’s usually considered malleable from a design and lore standpoint. Occasionally we decide to go in a different direction months or years after the first ideas are documented or even talked about externally. In some cases that means what one member of staff says in an interview can change when it comes time to building a release. It’s part of our iterative process.

In short, go by what’s in the game.

So I guess that’s all malleable. Still, Angel’s post was merely 2 weeks-ish ago! Surely she couldn’t be retconning herself so quic- y’know, never mind. I’m sure I’d be proven wrong.

Any thoughts on the last few frames of the scene?

Im mostly pointing at two things:

1. The rings around the centre rotate and spin in a way that they get into a perfectly aligned position right as the green orb smashes in.
2. The rings stop moving after the impact, practicly freezing the movement of the entire system.

My thoughts:

1) Such a thing might be naturally occuring but magically and mystically important, like the alignment of planets.

Additionally on that point: The green orb (whatever it may represent) stops its natural arcing path (the pattern all the other orbs follow), and then slams into the centre. Now we can argue if this change of movement is in consideration of the green orb’s entity, or a consequence of whatever happened to it.

‘Consideration’ supports the theory of it being Mordremoth. As Scarlet’s supposed master it would have the knowledge of ley-lines and the Eternal Alchemy as a whole, and strangely following Scarlets idea of not sticking to the rules anymore just slams itself into the system to upset it.

‘Consequence’ supports it being Zhaitan. Maybe we trully did kill Zhaitan. Something that has never been done before, killing an Elder Dragon, one of the great balancers of the world. Thats a significant enough change to be reflected in such a vision. The spread of the orb’s essence after the impact with the centre could also signify the release of draconic energy unleashed by Zhaitan’s death.

2) This is not natural. The rings should never stop moving, because that is ultimately the polar opposite of the whole circular symbolism of the entire system. Going in endless circles, rotating forever on a set axis, the Perpetuum Mobile of existence, versus just… stopping.

Mordremoth is mainly associated with growth, life, mostly because of the planty nature.

Zhaitan is/was the Elder Dragon of death or undeath.

Nature is an endlessly recycling system that goes on, slow and steady without end.
Death without rebirth (I mean the natural rebirth of things, decomposing bodies being recycled into the natural cycle) has a theme in common with Undeath. Stagnation. The halting of the circle. The breaking of progress. The inability to move on. Stopping.

This point, i must say, is strongly in favor of the dark green orb representing Zhaitan. Mordremoth’s sudden and extreme activity could be in order to counterbalance the effects of Zhaitan’s unleashed essence plaguing the natural system.

sAdam.5876:

Idea change constantly. Maybe they planned for Zhaitan(happy now?) to be dead while writing Personal Story, but maybe now they changed their plans.

I don’t think they did. Zhaitan was arguably not dead-gone-dead just dead based on the completion of Arah story. He had a corpse but they went on to say Arah EXP was going to contain Zhaitan in “some form or another.” Instead, they stripped that out and left it. These EDs are primordial forces, death in reality may not be the final outcome or end of an ED but rather they go back to the Mists, in some secret difficult to get to realm, where they recuperate and rise back up for the next cycle.

So his orb being present is more of “these are forces of nature that do not stop.”

It’s not like we’re definitely going to see him again. Unless if Anet decides otherwise.

@Ronin, in regards to the ‘corpse’ of Zhaitan, I pretty much think it is ‘in’ the map, More specifically in the ‘Straits of Devastation’, in the ocean there is a PoI that has a rather huge Corpse sticking out of the sea. Reason to believe it’s not one of Teqs size is that there is a smaller corpse not far from it. Having seen this area on a youtube movie makes me believe that it is indeed Zhaitan.

Now whether it is or not, I guess that is up for debate, in this sense I were to even suggest that it is the Entity our PC’s identified and named Zhaitan, due to it being the largest dragon out there, and most noticeably differed from the others like Teq. Yet, if the corpse in the ocean is indeed what is meant to be the dragon we killed in Arah, I would suggest that he is rather small to be responsible to lift an entire continent… (though after seeing DragonballZ to many times than I care to remember – I know not to mistake size for power). So, did we kill Zhaitan? or did we kill the supreme black magic Champion and are the true Dragons just to big to be dealt with…

That would be a bit of cop out, but now that you mentioned it I am curious how he was able to lift whole peninsula on his own.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So I guess that’s all malleable. Still, Angel’s post was merely 2 weeks-ish ago! Surely she couldn’t be retconning herself so quic- y’know, never mind. I’m sure I’d be proven wrong.

“Yes, “kill” as in it’s physical form, but after his death, Zhaitan’s spirit corrupted the Envoys so now his spirit is back !"

Oh wait, that means using GW1 material. And from Cantha.

When they bring Zhaitan back, it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s “Well you thought you killed him, but he has been reborn !”

Okay, the Elder Dragons are really Archdemons…. and anybody who understands what I’m talking about knows what THAT means. Orr was just a setback!

Anyway, watched the cinematic again, and it does look like art deco vines from the underworld after Mordy attacks.

Zhaitan is beaten but not dead. Else we’d not have a single risen in orr in open world map.

Vol.7601:

Assuming he doesn’t get killed by Mord this season…

There are worse fates than death awaiting him…..

I’m sure Morde would love to have the “Slayer of Zhaitan” as his main Champion….

Nilkemia.8507:

The Story Journal states that the orbs represent the Elder Dragons (from our characters’ perspective, anyway. See attachment for the specific section).

As for Zhaitan being alive, it is possible. Though we defeated him, we never found the body. I suspect they originally did the fight that way to not conclude things, to not show Zhaitan actually dying in case they wanted to bring him back for another fight. And if any of the dragons can come back from the dead, it would be him.

While the tokens for Arah are allegedly pieces of Zhaitan, (forever dead, as the description says) there’s nothing stopping him from putting himself back together or returning unless all the Risen are exterminated for good, which is supposedly happening, though it can’t be shown in-game with the way the zones work.

First, I agree, it says defeated and not killed, and anet was not satisfied with the ending, so we might just end up seeing him again at some point (though i doubt it is in the near future, they just have so much more to show us). All we see is Zhaitan falling but not it’s corpse.

And one way of justifiying the shards we get as tokens from the dungeon…. Zhaitan is HUGE, and if you remember, we cut a pretty big piece of him before the final boring showdown with the side cannons. Those tokens may just originate form that.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

It has been explicitly stated by the devs that Zhaitan is dead. He is dead. Dead dead dead.

@ Nabuko, the dragons absorb energy, they don’t necessarily naturally possess it – so yes Zhaitans energy is leached back into the world, but that doesn’t mean it goes anywhere specific. It just means there is now more magic in the world, it’s not too different to how the bloodstone was created which limited magic etc.

I thought the devs were very specific in their wording and they said defeated, not dead.

MatthewMedina.5419:

Canonically, yes the Lost Shores weekend and lead-up was set after the events of the Guild Wars 2 personal story and the defeat of Zhaitan, so this is partially what made it possible for the karka to establish a clawhold on Southsun Cove.

As to whether there can be risen karka: while it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility (although pitting dragon corruption vs. karka impenetrable shell would be an experiment I would be interested to watch), the karka are recent arrivals to the surface from their original home deep in the ocean. The ocean is a big enough place that the karka managed to settle on Southsun without encountering many risen, and they avoided Orr for the same reasons they fled their home. The karka are an old, old species so they have encountered Elder Dragons and their minions before…and they’re certainly smart enough to understand the threat they represent.

Notice he mentions it’s possible karka can be risen but Lost Shores is after Zhaitan is defeated. It’s probably just saying that karka are not immune to dragon corruption and that some karka could possibly be corrupted before Zhaitan was defeated.

It was believed in the game at launch that an Elder Dragon can’t be killed. Without explicitly exploring its corpse etc, it’s difficult to say definitely that Zhaitan is dead. It’s easy to believe it could be alive.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Zhaitan is beaten but not dead. Else we’d not have a single risen in orr in open world map.

Zones are stuck in time until Anet decides otherwise.

@RedStar, consequently it was mentioned in an interview that while he is dead his corruption lingers, and his Champion is still around. This is mentioned as the reason why there are still risen around. And while cleansing has been started, this is a slow and painstaking process…

Or you could obviously hint out your reason, but the lore one is a bit more poetic

Kain Francois.4328:

Zhaitan BETTER be alive, at least, some form of him.

ANET owes us a real final battle. And I want it to be a solo instance where we get to personally strike him with our sword.

I hope Zhaitan is alive too. He is an undead dragon after all, and I don’t think Trahearne’s necro abilities are powerful enough to stop him. And yes, Anet does owe us an epic Teq-styled battle with this guy.

At the end of season 1, myself and other players called on Anet to gives us a memorable Zhaitan battle. The current battle with Zhaitan isn’t a battle that requires skill and strategy (like Teq, Wurm and Marionette). It’s more like a collection of cutscenes and a short time firing a gun on the airship. There have been alot of players who felt cheated with the final battle in the Arah dungeon story.

Let’s hope that Anet does retcon and give us a Zhaitan battle to remember!

For those who insist Zhaitan is dead: The living world concept does give Anet the right to retcon the lore at any time. Unlike World of Warcraft or other games, the lore in this game is MUTABLE. As a roleplayer, I have to be constantly vigilant to lore changes in every update and adjust my characters accordingly. Sometimes, the Priory discovers something new or we finally learn the truth about a character.

For example: In LS2 Episode 1, we learned that Scarlet wasn’t an 8 year old Sylvari like what was implied during the Orgins of Madness update last January. We found out that she was born in 1304 and died at age 23. That makes her about 2 years younger than Trahearne AND a Secondborn.

Kibazuka.1390:

Im almost completely certain that the light green orb is zhaitan and the black/green one is mordremoth, the coloration also makes sense, the risen and especially Zhaitan himself used this toxic green very often while the mordrems we saw until now use a much darker green, if they are even green. The order in which they awaken also fits.
This also means that the orb crashing in the middle is Zhaitan not Mordremoth and there could be several explanations for that.
Dont forget that Tequatl surprisingly started to grow in power after Zhaitan got defeated

Color interpretations aside, because those two orbs are far too close in color to be distinguishable….(-____-)….The orbs are certainly meant to represent the order in which the Elder dragons awoke.

You can argue as to whether or not they represent the dragons themselves or their power/element in nature, which is a moot point given that they are likely one and the same.

Assuming that Anet did not make a mistake with the cinematic, then the fourth orb to light up has to represent Zhaitan. It looks like a representation of the dragon’s desire to fully consume Tyria since it invades the larger sphere in the center filling it with pulsating energy. The ‘eye’ references “What Scarlet Saw” in that something had looked back at her from the abyss. Now, this is an intriguing point as we had always assumed that she had made contact with Mordremoth since she woke him up by activating the ley lines.

Do we know for sure that the vision WE saw is the exact same vision Scarlet did? Perhaps the vision we saw are remnants of Zhaitan’s power or conscious (through Tequatl?) because it is the dragon we are closest to since we battled him and his minions recently? That may explain why we haven’t been corrupted in the same way Scarlet did, even though you technically came into contact with its power. Maybe it is in a weakened state. Perhaps because Scarlet is a Sylvari she made contact with Mordremoth instead and began to do his bidding from there on out.

It would be a surprising tidbit to show, considering that we are supposed to be facing Mordremoth in the LS2 and it would have been more consistent to show Scarlet’s vision and not a different one with a different dragon. Again this hinges on whether or not Anet intended that orb to be Zhaitan or Mordremoth.

I would like to believe that this wasn’t some gross error on their part and that they didn’t just use any old sickly-greenish looking orb to represent the new dragon, because I really liked that they actually tried to depict the order of the dragon’s awakenings. :/

RedStar.4218:

When they bring Zhaitan back, it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s “Well you thought you killed him, but he has been reborn !”

While it’s possible at a later date that they could change their mind, the team behind Arah wanted the Story to be the last time we see Zhaitan. It was a bad fight to begin with and not worth repeating. However it should be noted that the same team wanted to bring him back “in some form or another” for EXP-mode which easily means that there was more. So instead, be it out of limited time or lack of interest in going back to him, they just dropped the story and said that was the end.

That however doesn’t mean it was, lore-wise, the end of him completely. He is probably lingering around in “some form or another” waiting for the next cycle.

DHUUUUUUUUUM!!!!!!!

(just like to point out: two gods of death. one known dragon. let the theories commence)

we never confirmed the kill, and half of Orr is still unopened. i would not be surprised if they opened the rest of the map later and had a 2nd dungeon on the other side of the island

To be strictly fair… we kinda are literally using Zhaitan as a currency…
It would be pretty weird if he was, you know. Piecing himself back together. Given the circumstance.

Klipso.8653:

we never confirmed the kill, and half of Orr is still unopened. i would not be surprised if they opened the rest of the map later and had a 2nd dungeon on the other side of the island

Not sure if this has been posted before but earlier today I broke out of Arah story map and I found Zhaitan’s corpse, and he looked pretty dead to me (there’s a reason dead models exists). Pics below

Also the whole Arah story map is somewhat close to Malchor’s Leap size (broke out of map and swam till we hit the invisible wall). So it’s not unopened at all.

Not related to the topic but Arah story map contains a lot of creepy stuff in it too :S

I’ve kind of been wondering if the Green orb as Mordy and the fact that it strikes the center was signifying the Nightmare’s entrance in the Dream of Dreams? Admittedly, I’m not very up to snuff with the lore though, so I’m not sure if the placement in terms of the current timeline we know works out.

It seems to me now that it can be mainly one of two cases:

- The green orb represents the magic Zhaitan had captured. And what we see is that magic going back to the “soul of Tyria” and into the flow of the leylines after Zhaitan was defeated.
- The green orb represents the magic Mordremoth is attuned to, and what we see is a premonition of how Mordremoth plans to consume all magic in the world.