In order for Zhaitan to corrupt, they have to die. That’s what happens in Orr as you’re taking a team in and they are then assimilated.
Not entirely true. Kellach appears by all rights to have been corrupted into a dragon minion and never died. There are trees in both Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Swamp which are fully alive, but obviously twisted.
And an interesting thing I just noted about both of those cases: their skin/bark is altered, full of vein-like influences, and in the case of plants, changed color too.
Kellach – take note of the neck, which is also viewable on the face but less so (iirc, this is a moving effect). Corrupted Tree in Bloodtide – doesn’t show well in an image, but it’s darker, shimers a bit, swerves too.
Most corruption by Zhaitan requires corpses, and is effective immediately, but not all.
We also know that a corrupted individual cannot be re-corrupted. IE: Brand cannot be turned and brought into Jormag or Zhaitan’s folds. So who is to say that the Pale Tree if being a child of Mord, and the children that follow it, can be corrupted by the other dragons. It is as the text states, a death sentence and even with death being Zhaitan’s influence; he wasn’t capable of bringing Sylvari in.
Actually, we do not know this. And Subject Alpha, Kudu’s Monster, and Kudu himself are all cases that counters this argument. There is not a single example or case that tells us “dragon minions cannot be corrupted by another dragon.”
While another user did state that the Pale Tree that we know of is not the only one, Malyck does express he came from another – hence still under the influence of his parent tree.
There are hints – heavy hints – that the Pale Tree’s protection comes from the Dream of Dreams; Malyck has no Dream of Dreams experience. He does not share that heavily hinted source of protection.
That’s speculation and not definitive proof. CoE is an area for experimentation under would-be controlled environments until obviously something goes haywire thanks to Kudu. In the wilds we have not seen a single being corrupted by one Dragon and then switched for another. There hasn’t been a single brand turned Risen or brood turned brand, zero.
What’s speculative about an obviously Risen Giant using Branded crystals, ice attacks, and fire attacks? What’s speculative about a creature of unique appearance controlling minions of five different Elder Dragons and using branded crystals, risen tendrils, and attacks named after the other three of said five Elder Dragons?
That’s not speculative.
What is speculative is claiming that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other Elder Dragons – in fact, that’s just debunked speculation, since we see that they can. The question is “can they under any circumstance, and if not what are the circumstances?”
But thus far there is nothing to say that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons’ corruption.
The reason we don’t see it in nature is due to the fact that they kill each other on sight…
And death is how Risen are made so the question remains why do we not see Risen Sylvari?
Naturally, Risen only corrupt flesh (be it of animal or plant). Branded, Icebrood, and Destroyers are the very opposite of that – elements, not flesh.
However, any conflict between dragon minions that happens is off screen. So despite lordkrall’s statement, there very well might be minions corrupted by multiple dragons, we just don’t see them. We’re told that if they wander across each other they’d fight to the death like any other case of dragon minions approaching anything not of its shared dragon minions type (e.g., risen approaching any non-risen; icebrood approaching any non-icebrood). The exception is icebrood whom will not attack if there’s a Son of Svanir who’s bordering becoming an Icebrood – mainly, the “shamans.”
Clearly it doesn’t work or we would see walking corpses of the Soundless and the Nightmare Court all over Orr.
Why would “dragon minions can corrupt each other, this clearly works” result into “it clearly doesn’t, for we do not see risen sylvari!”
We have no proof that sylvari=dragon minion. There are no destroyers who approach Orr; or the Dragonbrand, or icebrood territory. Similarly, there are no icebrood who approach Orr or the Dragonbrand, or branded who approach Orr. The ONLY case we see in-game of dragon minions interacting with other types of dragon minions is Crucible of Eternity… where they’re under the control of Subject Alpha or Kudu’s Monster.
Looking at this from another perspective. Glint didn’t gain free will on her own, it was done so through the Forgotten. Who is to say that the Pale Tree didn’t imprint on Ronan and Ventari and gained it’s free will that way? A complete accident as it were. Wrong place at the right time and all that jazz.
Glint gained her free will through a magical ritual of the Forgotten. Something left unknown for who-knows-how-long. Mere conversation wouldn’t give a dragon minion free will. If the Pale Tree was a dragon minion of Mordremoth, then she gained freedom well before meeting Ronan and Ventari – as a seed.
However, I think the vines we see with this update kind of counters the argument that the Pale Tree is Mordremoth’s champion. The Pale Tree looks nothing like those thorn-filled vines. Texture, appearance, anything. There’s no similarity between the two.
You might have noticed that there are no risen plants, and as such it would seem like Zhaitan can’t corrupt non-“alive” stuff.
Go do the hearts in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen. Corrupted trees, mushrooms, and tree stumps are all over the place, tied to the various hearts.
And who is to say, beyond yourself and others who support your argument, that the very reason why they can’t be corrupted by Zhaitan, Kralk, Prim, or Jormag is because they are already corrupted by Mord based on heredity? We haven’t seen a single Branded or Icebrood culled into the Risen ranks.
Have we seen Branded or Icebrood interact with Risen?
In all honesty, the closest we get to dragon minion interaction beyond CoE is Mount Maelstrom, with risen and destroyers being nearby. Maybe if the meta event with the Megadestroyer fails and destroyers spawn everywhere we’d see some actual interaction, but we don’t.
We never see dragon minions interact. We only know they’d fight via Ree and Jeff’s words that they would. But would they do more than fight? Who knows. We don’t. We don’t know one way or the other.
What we do know is that the Inquest found a way to twist a Risen Giant with the corruptive magic of Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik.
Now let me throw the question back at you:
Who is to say, other than you and those who support your argument, that the reason why dragon minions cannot corrupt another dragons’ minion?
Where is your evidence. We’ve provided ours (CoE), but where is yours?
Which again stands to reason that all of a sudden two examples of people who lost sanction of the Pale Tree happen to go insane surrounding Mord’s awakening. That alone is highly suspect. I do agree they are of course guilty by association and thus susceptible to Mord’s influence however I could see the Pale Tree being some form of vegetational offspring of Mord. Anet prove me wrong.
Actually, per research on Scarlet’s timeline that I’ve done and presented here, evidence that doesn’t contradict established lore would put Scarlet’s first interactions with the entity three years before losing ties to the Dream.
Furthermore, while ArenaNet presented a piece of evidence that would point Aerin as having begun the meditations of the Soundless, nothing actually proves that he was Soundless and thus beyond the Pale Tree’s protections.
The only instance we see this actually happening is in Crucible of Eternity, which as I pointed out was not only an experiment conducted by the Inquest but also ended up poorly. So as far as the world is concerned, we haven’t seen any event to suggest it’s possible in a natural environment.
It ended poorly because a bunch of adventurers came in and started wrecking havoc on their krewe, preventing them from stablizing a reactor meltdown.
You have yet to provide evidence to support yourself.
And that’s really the crux of the issue. The whole “sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions” argument relies on the lack of evidence against it, and has a lack of evidence to support it.
You can only support “the sylvari are vulnerable to Mordremoth’s corruption” but not “sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions.”
Show me proof that this has happened anywhere else outside of Crucible of Eternity. Go on, I’ll wait. I’m legitimately curious. Because if you find it then I’ll admit I was wrong and move on as any responsible person will or should. However, consider the following if you can’t…..
This whole argument you’ve had for the several past posts is basically being presented to me as this:
“I have no evidence to support my claim. If you ask, I’ll just ask you for evidence to support that which isn’t your claim.”
Erukk wasn’t saying they do happen in the while – nor was I and possibly lordkrall – we (possibly three) were saying it is possible. And it is, because it happened. We don’t know how the Inquest got it to happen, so naturally we cannot deny that it cannot happen outside of a lab because we simply don’t know how it happened. You cannot say it is impossible to occur, because there is nothing to say it is impossible to occur, and you have nothing to prove how the Inquest managed it.
For all we know, the Inquest managed it by sticking two dragon minions capable of spreading corruption in the same room and let them do the rest. If something like that occurred, then it would be fully possible to occur outside of their influence – we just haven’t seen such happen.
Or maybe the Elder Dragons don’t want such to happen because as we see with Subject Alpha, it means that whatever minion becomes corrupted by multiple dragons’ corruption, is capable of leading both kinds of minions. But we don’t know where Alpha’s loyalties lie. So corrupting another dragons’ minions may result in the Elder Dragon losing its control over its own minions and creating a third party contender. Which is bad for both sides. And we know the Elder Dragons are intelligent enough to realize this much.
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well it is clear that people here are now arguing for the sake of arguing, more splitting hairs and opinion than anything actually solid.
Not entirely true. Kellach appears by all rights to have been corrupted into a dragon minion and never died. There are trees in both Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Swamp which are fully alive, but obviously twisted.
That can be summed up by the simple fact that it’s a process. A corpse needs to exist for Zhaitan to resurrect it. Kellach was not dead but sick, there’s no telling where it would have lead him. An example of this are the Quaggan who we see getting sick but we know for a fact are actually apart of the Risen forces, taking that into consideration – there’s a process that must be completed before the dead can be turned.
“I have no evidence to support my claim. If you ask, I’ll just ask you for evidence to support that which isn’t your claim.”
This is nothing more than a bait and switch. I cannot find evidence that isn’t there or I don’t believe is there. Furthermore, we don’t know whether the experiments are legitimate (as in Kudu actually managed to pull it off or the powers granted act similar) or imitations of its root source. We don’t know because not much oversight is given, it’s just the assumption: “Hey, he’s glowing ridiculously so he must be under the influence!”
We don’t know how the Inquest got it to happen, so naturally we cannot deny that it cannot happen outside of a lab because we simply don’t know how it happened.
Which is exactly what I have said if you read back enough. Again, you can’t keep spinning around in circles and then push burdens of proof on other people because they’re asking the questions. That’s just shifting the conversation towards another to make up for your lack of own personal data. The only data you have is one I recognize and question the authenticity of its existence because nowhere else in the world do we find this experiment occurring naturally. Nowhere.
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I’m going to pretend that I haven’t read anything about this in the lore forum and word this from a GW2 only, lore n00b point of view:
I know that this is a very superficial way of looking at this, but since many players have no in-depth understanding of the lore here, this might be exactly what ANet is trying to communicate to the casual player base.
That can be summed up by the simple fact that it’s a process. A corpse needs to exist for Zhaitan to resurrect it. Kellach was not dead but sick, there’s no telling where it would have lead him. An example of this are the Quaggan who we see getting sick but we know for a fact are actually apart of the Risen forces, taking that into consideration – there’s a process that must be completed before the dead can be turned.
The sick quaggans aren’t part of the risen forces. But Kellach is, as the risen follow and listen to him, but still very alive.
This is nothing more than a bait and switch. I cannot find evidence that isn’t there or I don’t believe is there. Furthermore, we don’t know whether the experiments are legitimate (as in Kudu actually managed to pull it off or the powers granted act similar) or imitations of its root source. We don’t know because not much oversight is given, it’s just the assumption: “Hey, he’s glowing ridiculously so he must be under the influence!”
But the experiments prove it is possible. And that’s the whole argument being made. That. It. Is. Possible.
But you’re stating that it isn’t possible, and that such impossibility is a fact. Yet you provide no support for this claim beyond “well, we don’t see it outside of CoE.”
The fact of the matter is that you’re arguing a case of “lack of evidence is evidence of lacking” but that’s not entirely true because we don’t see everywhere that dragon minions exist.
While, yes, we don’t see it happening in the wild, this doesn’t prove that it cannot happen in the wild, it just means we don’t see it. But is this proof that it can happen in the wild? No. But CoE and the lack of any statement saying it cannot happen does point that it might happen in the wild – we just don’t know. And that’s what Erukk, and myself, are saying.
So unless you have something that says that it cannot happen and not just continuously go back to the argument of “lack of evidence is evidence of lacking” argument that you’ve used the entire previous page, well, then this argument is done really, because you cannot support your claim.
Which is exactly what I have said if you read back enough. Again, you can’t keep spinning around in circles and then push burdens of proof on other people because they’re asking the questions. That’s just shifting the conversation towards another to make up for your lack of own personal data. The only data you have is one I recognize and question the authenticity of its existence because nowhere else in the world do we find this experiment occurring naturally. Nowhere.
I’m not trying to spin in circles – you’re just bringing us back to the same point whenever I ask you for your support. And by doing such, your ignoring the crux of my point:
We don’t see any interaction of dragon minions in the open world. The only interaction we see is at Crucible of Eternity.
But at the same time, we have absolutely nothing that claims that dragon minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons. You had originally stated that “We also know that a corrupted individual cannot be re-corrupted.”
But the fact of the matter is that we do not know this. It is a mere possibility, with no support against except the lack of evidence, and no support for except that it can be done in a controlled environment.
You said that we know it cannot be done. So I asked you for your source. You do not provide.
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The sick quaggans aren’t part of the risen forces. But Kellach is, as the risen follow and listen to him, but still very alive.
In life no but yes, in death they are. Zhaitan couldn’t resurrect Risen without corpses. Kellach is spared death and free’d of Zhaitan’s influence, so he doesn’t have a corpse to offer.
But you’re stating that it isn’t possible, and that such impossibility is a fact. Yet you provide no support for this claim.
It isn’t likely, is what I have been stating. You’re looking for absolutes, you wont find them.
I’m not trying to spin in circles – you’re just bringing us back to the same point whenever I ask you for your support. And by doing such, your ignoring the crux of my point
We don’t see any interaction of dragon minions in the open world. The only interaction we see is at Crucible of Eternity.
And your point is faulty because we aren’t seeing the dragons interact in Crucible of Eternity. We’re seeing experiments conducted using their energy, not will power and furthermore there’s again the same problem of whether or not the presence are legitimate or imitations. Imitations in that, villains like Kudu are often naive in thinking they have control until they lose it.
But the fact of the matter is that we do not know this. It is a mere possibility, with no support against except the lack of evidence, and no support for except that it can be done in a controlled environment.
You said that we know it cannot be done. So I asked you for your source. You do not provide.
The only support I have is the lack of evidence suggesting that this has occurred elsewhere. All the same, you have not proven to me it has happened outside of Crucible of Eternity, when I ask for you to provide you resort to asking me instead to do the work for you. Hence the whole “bait and switch”, we both know there is no evidence out there supporting the claim therefore I find it unlikely to occur naturally.
Crucible of Eternity is, while questionable, an isolated case and so far no other successes have been found, rumored, or existed outside of it. Until proof is provided legitimizing the presence elsewhere, you need to stop asking for proof at the same time of not providing any. Telling me CoE is proof when I’ve critiqued that whole event countless times now, isn’t valid – it’s no more valid than saying that nuclear weapons can exist purely through natural means because the elements that are used to craft the weapons are present in nature.
There’s nothing. So all of this putting burdens onto others and you have nothing you and I don’t know already, to provide. Instead, you merely preach the word “possibility”.
“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.” Double-entrendres can work both ways. ANet prove me wrong.
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While, yes, we don’t see it happening in the wild, this doesn’t prove that it cannot happen in the wild, it just means we don’t see it.
Through all of this talk about asking for proof, I’ve been arguing this point. However my take is obviously different. We don’t see it outside and so I do not believe it occurs outside; there’s no presence of it happening. If I don’t see it it, I think it’s safe to assume it doesn’t exist until proven otherwise. The day we see a Brood-brand or Husk-Brand/Brood is the day I will be proven wrong and will accept it. Until then, I stand by my opinion.
Crucible of Eternity is not valid “proof”. It’s a lab that defies the natural order of the Dragons for the sake of experimentation and curiosity. Because CoE is isolated and successful practices have not been seen or heard elsewhere, I am under the impression that it is not only unlikely that it happens outside but that it doesn’t happen.
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In life no but yes, in death they are. Zhaitan couldn’t resurrect Risen without corpses. Kellach is spared death and free’d of Zhaitan’s influence, so he doesn’t have a corpse to offer.
Kellach is not freed of Zhaitan’s influence except when he’s killed (and he doesn’t rise again). So… that argument kind of goes out the window.
It isn’t likely, is what I have been stating. You’re looking for absolutes, you wont find them.
I quoted you stating that we know it isn’t possible. You stated an absolute. Look to my previous post again if you don’t believe me.
You’ve been saying it isn’t possible, not that it isn’t likely.
And your point is faulty because we aren’t seeing the dragons interact in Crucible of Eternity. We’re seeing experiments conducted using their energy, not will power and furthermore there’s again the same problem of whether or not the presence are legitimate or imitations. Imitations in that, villains like Kudu are often naive in thinking they have control until they lose it.
Second encounter with Subject Alpha when choosing the submarine path, an Inquest is surrounded by a Nightmare Hound, Icebrood Wolf, Destroyer Harpy, and Icebrood Troll. They do not attack each other. They fight together. And when they die, Subject Alpha appears, rising the Inquest (if they died) as risen.
We see dragon minions interact in CoE.
And as far as we know, Kudu did have control – over Kudu’s Monster, which we killed immediately after. Subject Alpha obviously was a failed experiment in terms of control, but Kudu’s Monster apparently was not.
All the same, you have not proven to me it has happened outside of Crucible of Eternity, when I ask for you to provide you resort to asking me instead to do the work for you.
I never said it has occured outside of CoE. I merely stated that it is actually possible – though we do not know how – for a creature to be corrupted by multiple dragons.
I have admitted that we have not seen creatures corrupted by multiple dragons outside CoE. I have answered your question, and ask again where your source for your previous comment of impossibility – an absolute – exists, where you only state that we have not seen such, and once more demand the same question which I have answered.
If anyone’s circling, it is you.
I have not said CoE is proof that it does happen. I said that CoE is proof that it can happen. There is a distinct difference between the two scenarios.
So all of this putting burdens onto others and you have nothing you and I don’t know already, to provide.
The funny thing is… you’re doing this as well.
Kellach is not freed of Zhaitan’s influence except when he’s killed (and he doesn’t rise again). So… that argument kind of goes out the window.
In order for corpses to be risen, as the story in Orr shows us, they must be taken back to Orr in droves and delivered directly. So whether Kellach was free or not remains to be determined. What would happen if his corpse was brought to Orr and sent on those corpse-ships? I think we would have a completely different situation.
You’ve been saying it isn’t possible, not that it isn’t likely.
I’ve since clarified by the past couple of posts in saying it wasn’t likely. CoE is the only place to our knowledge that something like this takes place and as I’ve stated, I find the practices in those experiments questionable.
We see dragon minions interact in CoE.
Minions not dragons. Minions. Which begs the question why the Husks and Nightmare Hounds are present.
And as far as we know, Kudu did have control
Actually we presume he had control. And as you say, the monster is quickly dispatched right after. I could toss that easily to arrogance on Kudu’s part and we were but the subject of which the monster could hone its aggression on.
I have admitted that we have not seen creatures corrupted by multiple dragons outside CoE.
And nothing more needs to be said in my defense. That’s been my point all along. It is from that statement I draw my conclusions until I am proven otherwise. I can move on from being proven wrong, could you say the same?
If anyone’s circling, it is you.
Your logic astounds me. You expect me to provide proof of somethings lack of existence as if its tangible. This whole one-up manship isn’t going to fly because it makes absolutely no sense. If someone doesn’t believe in gods and is asked to prove that gods don’t exist, how do you bring forth proof of it’s non-existence?
I have not said CoE is proof that it does happen. I said that CoE is proof that it can happen.
And I have stated that under specific circumstances that it did happen – inside of CoE. Therefore that out in the natural world of Tyria, it is unlikely to happen because so far we have no evidence to prove it has happened. That could change but until then, it hasn’t and there’s no benefit to me to speculate further on it.
To bring the point home, Sylvari still have not been seen corrupted by any other Elder Dragon. So therein by saying Sylvari are corruptible by all of the EDs is highly suspect. We know Primordus uses rock and Zhaitan uses corpses but for whatever reason (suspected to be the Pale Tree) they cannot be turned. Now while the Pale Tree idea sounds solid, once life has returned to the earth they would leave a body behind and we know from Primordus that he doesn’t need to corrupt things but instead manifest them from the materials of the earth; yet not a single Destroyer of the Sylvari are present.
It makes this particular topic of discussion interesting.
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In order for corpses to be risen, as the story in Orr shows us, they must be taken back to Orr in droves and delivered directly. So whether Kellach was free or not remains to be determined. What would happen if his corpse was brought to Orr and sent on those corpse-ships? I think we would have a completely different situation.
This is not entirely the case.
If you read Edge of Destiny or Sea of Sorrows, you’d probably remember that in both novels it is explicitly stated and shown that those slain do not even hit the ground before becoming risen. The act of being killed and turned into a risen is instantaneous when in the presence of a group of risen (large enough or powerful enough to spread corruption – which doesn’t require too much, it would seem, just a few mid-tiered minions would usually work in various events to spread the corruption).
Mazdak was apparently corrupted while in his tomb, halfway across the continent.
The storyline around the “krait orb” (aka Blue Orb aka Water Orb) shows that the krait are killed and turned in their own deeps when assaulted by risen.
Various events in Orr show NPCs being killed and raised immediately – such as the group event Defeat the Vigil Tactician that was taken over by Zhaitan. We see similar such events elsewhere, such as Slay the undead drake broodmother which was corrupted on the spot by a “Corpse Caller” risen wraith.
Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead was merely presenting that corpses not killed around risen are “looted” and taken back to Orr to be basked in Zhaitan’s corruption.
Kellach, having been killed around risen, should have returned as a risen if he wasn’t already corrupted.
Minions not dragons. Minions. Which begs the question why the Husks and Nightmare Hounds are present.
The topic is not how the Elder Dragons interact, but how their minions do. So saying there are no dragons in CoE… sounds irrelevant to me.
Actually we presume he had control. And as you say, the monster is quickly dispatched right after. I could toss that easily to arrogance on Kudu’s part and we were but the subject of which the monster could hone its aggression on.
At this point, you’re denying NPC commentary without evidence countering them being right.
You expect me to provide proof of somethings lack of existence as if its tangible.
No. I expect you to provide proof for your claim that we know that it is impossible.
If we know it is impossible, then there must be proof that shows it is impossible. Otherwise it is a possibility; a mere chance; unproven; an unknown.
To bring the point home, Sylvari still have not been seen corrupted by any other Elder Dragon. So therein by saying Sylvari are corruptible by all of the EDs is highly suspect.
I don’t think anyone has claimed that sylvari are corruptible by all of the Elder Dragons. In fact, I’m pretty sure no one has claimed such.
You seem to be taking our argument that dragon minions can corrupt one another with something that we’ve been arguing against: the theory that sylvari are dragon minions.
In fact, I – I don’t know about others – am using the argument of multiple-corruptions as an argument for why the sylvari are not dragon minions. So there is no reason for me to argue that sylvari can be corrupted by any Elder Dragon beyond Mordremoth – and even the sylvari being corruptible by Mordremoth is unproven, a mere possibility, a chance, an unknown.
Now while the Pale Tree idea sounds solid, once life has returned to the earth they would leave a body behind and we know from Primordus that he doesn’t need to corrupt things but instead manifest them from the materials of the earth; yet not a single Destroyer of the Sylvari are present.
Primordus corrupts rock and lava, not fossils or tissue, however.
Maybe ancient fossils, but there is no ancient sylvari corpse deep in the ground, and it’s a heavy point that Primordus corrupts hard stone and not soil, and that he doesn’t corrupt near the surface except in vats of lava (per Edge of Destiny) or in odd cases like the Destroyer Queen, egg-shaped mobile vats of lava containing a single destroyer.
Various events in Orr show NPCs being killed and raised immediately – such as the group event “Defeat the Vigil Tactician that was taken over by Zhaitan.”
Crucial point is bolded. Consider the topography….
Kellach, having been killed around risen, should have returned as a risen if he wasn’t already corrupted.
Or a necessary object/ritual is still required that is not present and since we also eliminate the mode of transportation, obviously the link is not connected. We do not know, it is difficult to say. Kellach was a rare case in that, acting similar to Scarlet where he sees Zhaitan as a threat and, in mind, he feels he can stop him.
Corporal Kellach was a soldier in the Seraph guard. Being greatly devoted to Kryta, he sought a power that would allow him to safeguard Queen Jennah and his home. To do this, he sought the aid of a seer, Alastia Crow. She led Kellach to an old arifact from the Ruins of Orr which contained Zhaitan’s influence and power. This power slowly corrupted Kellach, turning him insane and a beacon for the risen to follow.
There’s interaction prior to players meeting him and the mention of a relic from orr At first all it does is clearly activate his instincts to protect Kryta, enhancing “fight or flight” while at the same time lending him to assist Zhaitan’s goals. If that’s not corruption, I don’t know what else to tell you.
Additionally, it is peculiar at how similar Kellach and Scarlet act and while different the two act as mirrors to one another. So, with nothing to prove that Sylvari can be corrupted by the other EDs but she is in some way acting under Mord’s influence, we come full circle yet again arriving to the question of whether or not the susceptibility of the Sylvari is due to an unseen root (pun intended) connection.
The topic is not how the Elder Dragons interact, but how their minions do. So saying there are no dragons in CoE… sounds irrelevant to me.
I simply disagree. In order for Dragon Corruption to take place, there needs to be a willful and conscious decision being made. What we see are dragon minions being housed in a facility and experimented on. There’s still not enough information throughout the lab to suggest the final experiments weren’t imitations.
At this point, you’re denying NPC commentary without evidence countering them being right.
I’m not denying anything, read what I said. Keyword: Presume. Because all we have to go off of is his commentary and the evidence of his experiments with no additional oversight or lore. Therein by we are taking everything witnessed in CoE at face value, I simply question but am not denying what he says. Kudu certainly thought he was in control, most villains do.
You seem to be actively seeking an “I win” argument by planting things that are not there. When I bring corrections or clarification up, you try to change the subject while aiming for the same goal. I am not here to say I am right or wrong, which you seem to misinterpret purposefully; I am however discussing with the use of speculation and waiting for further evidence to prove my speculations as false or incomplete.
No. I expect you to provide proof for your claim that we know that it is impossible.
If we know it is impossible, then there must be proof that shows it is impossible. Otherwise it is a possibility; a mere chance; unproven; an unknown.
These two statements of yours contradict one another. It’s unfeasible. And you’re promoting the double-entrendre at the same time. I don’t understand how you think this is a logical retort. There’s no proof (with the exception of CoE which we have already covered) to show it is possible… outside of CoE. So if we’re to take the same process that we grant Kudu, taking things at face value, why is it suddenly “wrong” of me to assume these things do not occur outside?
Yes, you admitted that you accept the lack of existence outside but you keep trying to say it “can” happen. When I said, I believe it is “unlikely” you immediately dial back to prove me wrong through my lack of evidence supporting the non-existence. There’s nothing that can be provided at this time hence I speculate that the lack of existence is an answer in of itself. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m telling you what I think and that there is a stark difference.
Primordus corrupts rock and lava, not fossils or tissue, however.
Right. What I’m saying is, Primordus would be the closest thing to it but far from it at the same time.
Were he to take a Sylvari corpse, he could likely break it down to minerals and leave the nutrients. What you would get are Harpies or Trolls so technically the Sylvari wouldn’t be corrupted at all, just utilized as a resource to aid in the construction process – effectively changing nothing about the end result of the creation.
(edited by Ronin.7381)
Crucial point is bolded. Consider the topography….
And you ignore everything else or the point of mentioning that. Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead – if you paid any proper attention – had the risen being created by setting the corpses into radiation of Zhaitan’s corruption – the event (both those in Orr and outside it) lack that “setting corpses into radiation of Zhaitan’s corruption” and have, unlike in Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead, instantaneous corruption.
But the main point was the creation of risen well outside Orr.
Or a necessary object/ritual is still required that is not present and since we also eliminate the mode of transportation, obviously the link is not connected.
If you actually read my post in full, and went to the links and read what I was talking about, you’d know that no object or ritual is ever performed. Just a spreading of corruption in the area, or the presence of risen who can spread corruption – however little.
And Kellach had that.
He also had an object spreading corruption – which is why he was corrupted in the first place.
Additionally, it is peculiar at how similar Kellach and Scarlet act and while different the two act as mirrors to one another. So, with nothing to prove that Sylvari can be corrupted by the other EDs but she is in some way acting under Mord’s influence, we come full circle yet again arriving to the question of whether or not the susceptibility of the Sylvari is due to an unseen root (pun intended) connection.
By your argument, there is an unseen connection between humanity and Zhaitan.
I simply disagree. In order for Dragon Corruption to take place, there needs to be a willful and conscious decision being made. What we see are dragon minions being housed in a facility and experimented on. There’s still not enough information throughout the lab to suggest the final experiments weren’t imitations.
What the conscious decision is needed for is the creation of corruptive magic or materials; if one has said magic or materials on hand by some means, then there is no longer a conscious decision to corrupt, because the corruption simply spreads.
We see this throughout the game, primarily with risen but also with others. In the case of risen, we see wildlife consuming risen corpses, becoming sickened or corrupted themselves, we see objects corrupting and killing living beings (such as Kellach and Howl), and many more such situations.
And we see more than just minions being housed and experimented on, but uncorrupted beings – humans, charr, kodan, etc. – being exposed to the corruptive magic of Elder Dragons (this is shown in story mode).
I’m not denying anything, read what I said. Keyword: Presume. Because all we have to go off of is his commentary and the evidence of his experiments with no additional oversight or lore. Therein by we are taking everything witnessed in CoE at face value, I simply question but am not denying what he says. Kudu certainly thought he was in control, most villains do.
You question what he said, thus denying his view as correct but only as “potentially correct.”
Perhaps I worded that wrong previously.
Typically the means of taking in lore is by taking things by what the NPCs say except when there’s evidence to argue otherwise, otherwise we’ll just be second-guessing anything and everything we are told in the game.
No. I expect you to provide proof for your claim that we know that it is impossible.
If we know it is impossible, then there must be proof that shows it is impossible. Otherwise it is a possibility; a mere chance; unproven; an unknown.
These two statements of yours contradict one another. It’s unfeasible. And you’re promoting the double-entrendre at the same time. I don’t understand how you think this is a logical retort. There’s no proof (with the exception of CoE which we have already covered) to show it is possible… outside of CoE. So if we’re to take the same process that we grant Kudu, taking things at face value, why is it suddenly “wrong” of me to assume these things do not occur outside?
Yes, you admitted that you accept the lack of existence outside but you keep trying to say it “can” happen. When I said, I believe it is “unlikely” you immediately dial back to prove me wrong through my lack of evidence supporting the non-existence. There’s nothing that can be provided at this time hence I speculate that the lack of existence is an answer in of itself. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m telling you what I think and that there is a stark difference.
You said that we know it is impossible.
This is not you saying it is unlikely. This is not saying “we have yet to see”.
I am merely asking for your source for what you said for “we know it is impossible” – which you did say, I quoted you, twice, in saying it. And you have yet – to what I have seen – retracted such a statement.
Yet when I ask for that source, you return to the same argument of what I just quoted. You respond to me with a statement that is not an answer to the question I am asking. It is as if I am asking you “what weighs as much as a duck?” and you say “a quack! But why does a witch weigh as much as a duck?” (if you get the reference, kudos).
I’m still not convinced that the Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth, BUT… As plant creatures, they may be highly susceptible to his corruption in a way that the animal races aren’t.
I’m certain that it is the Pale Tree, via the Dream, that is protecting the Sylvari from the bulk of Mordremoth’s influence too. The jury’s still out on whether she’s a Dragon Champion, or simply a survivor of a plant race from the days of Giganticus Lupicus that fell victim to the Elder Dragons.
It’s just something that rarely happens outside the lab…
It’s never happened outside of a lab. That’s the point of the whole project. Subject Alpha was an experiment which houses questions in of itself as to how the Inquest managed to pull it off. Hence the “abnormality” of the whole experiment. There isn’t a single blurt or nod in the direction that a beast or being has been seen under the influence of two or more Elder Dragons at any given time. None.
{snip}
By that logic some synthetic elements (Einsteinium, Fermium, Mendelevium, etc…) should be Earth-made metals since the Earth possesses the compounds and environments necessary to make it, yet it was by men in labs that combined the elements because nowhere on Earth are these synthetic elements found.
As a physicist (albeit one who hasn’t been actively physicist-ing for a while), I’m actually a little amused at all the things you’re asserting never happen without human intervention.
Those synthetic elements you’re talking about are almost certainly made in the same process that produces most elements beyond the fourth row of the periodic table – exploding supernovae. The reason we don’t see them on Earth is that they have incredibly short half-lives – in the lab they generally decay in seconds, while the elements that compose the Earth have been floating around in space for uncounted eons before coalescing into the Earth, and then sat there for another four and a half billion years before we showed up to go looking for rare elements. Anything with a half-live measured in anything less than thousands of years is long gone.
Regarding nuclear weapons – most of the baryonic matter (for the uninitiated – things composed of known forms of matter like atoms and related particles, as opposed to dark matter) in the observed universe is contained within self-sustaining thermonuclear explosions – we call them stars. If you’re talking specifically about fission weapons – there’s actually evidence of a natural fission reactor having occurred in Africa about 2-3 billion years ago. The mechanics required for a fission explosion are actually fairly simple (just have a significant amount of fissile material in a small enough area – the hard part is manufacturing or extracting the material), and there’s a serious – not particularly popular, but serious – theory that the Moon might have been blown off the Earth by a natural nuclear explosion.
So why don’t we see them nowadays? Because the Earth is billions of years old. Uranium-235 has a half-life of seven hundred million years – when the natural nuclear reactor formed in Africa it would have been about 16 times more abundant (only considering natural decay and not the uranium 235 consumed in the natural reactor), and when the Earth originally formed there would have been close to a hundred times as much as uranium 235 present in nature as there is now.
So where is this leading? Well, the point is that the requirements for fission reactions are fairly simple. Have enough uranium 235 within a small enough volume, and a reaction will occur (various other factors, such as water as a neutron medium, presence of more stable elements that can soak up the neutrons, and so on, may increase or decrease the concentration required) – squeeze it into a really small volume, and boom!
The reason we don’t see spontaneous nuclear explosions is that fissile materials are rare, so in modern times natural forces are unlikely to bring enough of them together to form a nuclear reactor, let alone an explosion. It takes human activity to extract the materials and put them together. Once they do, though, physics does what physics does – it doesn’t care whether the elements came together naturally or by the actions of sapient beings.
The significance of this is that natural nuclear explosions are certainly possible, we just don’t see them because the materials required to do so don’t come together. This exact same analogy can be made for multi-corrupted minions in the wild. Of the dragons, Primordus, for whatever reason, shows no evidence of corrupting living creatures at all. Apart from destroyers cropping up everywhere, there are no examples I can think of where two dragons have minions within the same zone, let alone close enough to potentially corrupt one another. Like the uranium 235 that will react if brought into proximity with enough other uranium 235 regardless of how it came to do so, minions of Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Zhaitan might also naturally corrupt one another in the right circumstances – but since they never mix ingame except by Inquest agency, this does not happen. However, it may be that it’s not happening in the wild because the process is something that requires a sapient hand to occur, but that it’s not happening simply because dragon minions are not coming into contact with one another anywhere we can see the results.
And if they did… then the “synthetic” elements analogy comes into play. We don’t see einsteinium and the like naturally on Earth because it didn’t survive the billions of years between when it was formed and when we found it. Conversely, for all we know, multi-corrupted minions have formed in the wild – but when they do, the minions of both dragons no longer recognise them as fellow minions and destroy them. They just don’t survive.
Furthermore, there is one final point that has to be remembered: As well as dragon minions such as a Risen giant (Kudu’s Monster), we’ve seen the Inquest corrupting members of other races – human, charr, norn, and others. We’ve never seen them successfully corrupt a sylvari. The revelation that Soundless may be vulnerable, if they learn of that, may change this, but this lack of success by the Inquest so far, when they have succeeded in adding additional corruption to dragon minions, shows that regardless of how complex the Inquest’s methods are, whatever is protecting the sylvari is stronger than any natural resistance dragon minions already have. Thus, the sylvari resistance cannot be coming about because they’re already minions of a dragon.
If we know it is impossible, then there must be proof that shows it is impossible. Otherwise it is a possibility; a mere chance; unproven; an unknown.
Not really. Again, you’re spinning yourself in a circle trying to argue with the benefit of the doubt but we don’t see these things nor hear about them happening naturally. Take a look at what we know, no where else in the world have we heard or seen the existence of mixed-minions. In looking at Crucible of Eternity, it was an established and isolated case. Since we do not know what experiments were conducted and how, there’s no guarantees. CoE is questionable while also the prospect of it occurring naturally outside “unlikely” without further information. It’s simply improbable without active intervention.
A lab doesn’t experiment itself.
You question what he said, thus denying his view as correct but only as “potentially correct.”
I presume he meant what he was saying. He is a villain after all.
Typically the means of taking in lore is by taking things by what the NPCs say except when there’s evidence to argue otherwise, otherwise we’ll just be second-guessing anything and everything we are told in the game.
Put simply, it’s a choice you make. I choose to ask questions in the hopes of finding more information and answers.
And you ignore everything else or the point of mentioning that. Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead – if you paid any proper attention – had the risen being created by setting the corpses into radiation of Zhaitan’s corruption – the event (both those in Orr and outside it) lack that “setting corpses into radiation of Zhaitan’s corruption” and have, unlike in Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead, instantaneous corruption.
I see what you’re saying. I had to go back and do reading this morning for cross reference. There still needs to be a source and according to the wiki, risen do seethe with residual corruption but numbers improve the effects. Kellach is a unique case in that it could be argued the process of corruption for resurrections wasn’t complete or the corpses weren’t around long enough.
(edited by Ronin.7381)
-snip-
Fascinating stuff, truly. It was a bad analogy on my part. I was thinking from the perspective of ingenuity and it’s application.
But:
It takes human activity to extract the materials and put them together.
This is my point exactly. It requires intervention. Similarly, that is what the Asura have done. So we bring ourselves back to square one.
(edited by Ronin.7381)
People, the Sylvari are not minions because they are playable characters /endthread.
Um, no.
The only playable sylvari are from the Pale Tree and because of her, they are protected from Mordremoth’s direct infulence. This is how Anet can go about Sylvari being dragon minons without touching people’s sylvari characters.
All sylvari cut off from the Pale Tree, or having come from a different tree, are not safe.
But:
It takes human activity to extract the materials and put them together.
This is my point exactly. It requires intervention. Similarly, that is what the Asura have done. So we bring ourselves back to square one.
You have completely missed my point and presented it as a major victory.
Creating a nuclear reactor is easy. You just need to put enough uranium-235 in a room and physics will do the rest. All the various extra stuff is about increasing efficiency, getting useful power out of it, gaining some measure of control over it so you don’t get a meltdown, and so on. You just don’t see this in nature because the concentration of fissile isotopes is low enough – now - that it’s unlikely to happen by natural processes, but when the concentration of fissile isotopes was higher in earlier periods in Earth’s history, it did happen.
Similarly, creating a multi-corrupted creature may be as simple as exposing a person or creature to corrupting effects from sources connected to multiple dragons. Put someone in a room with, say, Kellach’s artifact and the sword made from dragon’s blood in the Priory storyline for long enough, and the dragon magic will do the rest. We just don’t see this happening – now - because there are no places in-game where a minion of one dragon is subject to corruption from another. But if, say, a destroyer burrow was to come up in the Brand, then it’s possible that we’d see branded destroyers forming just as quickly as branded ogres, devourers, elementals, and so on.
Without knowing the details of the Inquest’s experiments, we cannot say that multicorruption is impossible, just that we haven’t observed it. Just like we’d never observed a natural nuclear reactor… until we found evidence that it had happened.
You’ve also missed my other point, which is this:
The Inquest has successfully created multicorrupted minions, but they have not succeeded in corrupting a sylvari. Therefor, corrupting a sylvari is more difficult than corrupting a minion. Therefor, the nature of sylvari protection is something different to – or stronger than – already being a dragon minion.
With the above, it doesn’t matter if creating multicorrupted minions is simply a matter of putting two minions together, preventing them from killing one another, and letting nature take its course, or whether it’s an incredibly complicated procedure that could never happen outside a lab or a series of incredibly specific events that have such a low chance of happening in any way apart from sapient intervention that it is for all practical purposes impossible. The process still doesn’t work on sylvari, and thus, whatever protects sylvari is different to any protection that minions may, or amy not, have.
But:
It takes human activity to extract the materials and put them together.
This is my point exactly. It requires intervention. Similarly, that is what the Asura have done. So we bring ourselves back to square one.
You have completely missed my point and presented it as a major victory.
When you try to respond and prove what someone is saying, you there in by help support their point. The keyword being Ingenuity. You keep passing it off as irrelevant not accepting that there is a hand being used to combine properties, it wont disavow the credibility of the claim. All you can do is disagree with it, erroneously so. You even say it further yourself that in order to make a nuclear weapon you must grab all of the necessary materials and put it together which nature simply doesn’t do. So, you’re basing this off of theoretical nonsense – a logical fallacy.
You missed my point completely, again.
The Inquest has successfully created multicorrupted minions…
Lets look at this. Having just run Crucible of Eternity Story mode for a refresher. You meet a lab assistant who tells you that under the facility is a mechanism that splits dragonic energy. Basically, the Crucible takes raw energies and refines them.
Again, Subject Alpha, whom you cite as your winning example, is subject to scrutiny because it’s been tampered with. It also only occurs in the lab and doesn’t exist anywhere else both as a test subject and a species.
Therefor, corrupting a sylvari is more difficult than corrupting a minion. Therefor, the nature of sylvari protection is something different to – or stronger than – already being a dragon minion.
Cue the Pale Tree
It still doesn’t argue that the Sylvari are not Dragon Minions themselves. Where’d the seed come from, why was it in the cave in the first place protected by forest creatures?
With the above, it doesn’t matter if creating multicorrupted minions is simply a matter of putting two minions together…
I simply disagree, I think the origins do matter. Shedding light on explaining why or why not something occurs is very important. Unfortunately this game does poorly at it.
EDIT: I should note that I am playing Devil’s Advocate when it comes to answering the Sylvari are minions. Saying they aren’t while providing nothing but opinions and no proof is not discounting those who say they are and also, in the same manner, applying thoughts that they are.
We simply do not know, the evidence is not conclusive.
(edited by Ronin.7381)
Cue the Pale Tree
Which is another point I made earlier in this thread – the ‘sylvari as dragon minions’ theory was originally made in order to present a possible explanation for why sylvari were immune to corruption. This is the point behind pointing out that sylvari are harder to corrupt then minions – it shows that, if being a minion provides any protection at all (we still have no hard evidence that it does), the protection that sylvari have is stronger, and thus cannot (purely) be explained by being (former) minions.
Since you’ve acknowledged that you’re playing Devil’s Advocate, I’ll say this:
There is nothing that can be pointed to as certain proof that the sylvari were never, at any point in their evolution, descended from dragon minions. That said, there is also no such certain proof for any other race we could care to name (even humans could, arguably, have been on Tyria sometime in the distant past, been corrupted, decorrupted, left Tyria, and now returned. Unlikely, I know, but impossible to prove beyond any doubt that it hasn’t happened).
However, at the moment, there is no good evidence that the sylvari are dragon minions that can’t be better explained by something else.
Resistance to corruption? We appear to have an explanation now – the Pale Tree extends the protection through the Dream, and without it the sylvari are vulnerable. This may later turn out to be Marjory and the PC jumping to the wrong conclusion, but at the moment, it is at LEAST as good an explanation as any, particularly when there is no evidence that being a minion provides any special resistance (because we don’t see dragon minions in situations where they might be corrupted by another dragon, we don’t know how easily they can*.)
Vulnerability to corruption by Mordremoth, in the case of Scarlet and Aerin? We’ve been given a reason why they might be more vulnerable – because they’ve lost the protection. Without that protection, their being corrupted more easily by Mordremoth than other races can be explained simply by being plants, something that Mordremoth appears to specialise in corrupting. A Soundless in a position to be corrupted by Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik might prove to be as easily corruptible than any other race. And if the Inquest gets word of this possible kitten in the sylvari’s armour, I expect them to test it.
The point you raise about the Pale Tree seeds in the cave? Plenty of plant species in the real world have life cycles where seeds go dormant for long periods of time until the right circumstances arise for them to germinate. The Pale Trees might be another such species – except instead of waiting for rain or a bushfire to trigger germination, their seeds are provided with plant creatures that guard them and take them out to be planted when they sense that conditions are right.
Everything that’s been put forward as evidence leading to the sylvari minion theory has simpler explanations that do not point in that direction – and the recent release has only strengthened that. Nonetheless, we still have people crowing about how the sylvari minion theory is all but conclusively proven – and sometimes they don’t even bother to put the ‘all but’ part in. You’re playing devil’s advocate for a theory that is already far more popular than the (lack of) evidence deserves. It was a good theory when it was first composed – but every relevant piece of evidence since short of the revelation that Scarlet’s objective was to waken a dragon has pushed away from the theory, and even THAT piece of evidence now has a simpler alternative explanation.
*You keep putting forward the fact that we don’t see it in the wild as evidence, but the point is that the circumstances by which it would happen in the wild do not occur because minions simply do not cross paths.
As a thought experiment, let’s imagine that ArenaNet applied mechanics so that corruption – now currently something that only occurs in events – was something that we saw happening much more often. Say, that any creature within, say, a 2000 unit radius of a dragon minion or other source of dragon corruption (such as Brand crystals) developed a stacking debuff that, if it reached a high enough level, resulted in that creature transforming into a minion. Can you think of any location, outside of Crucible of Eternity or Thaumanova which, by your own argument, don’t count because they’ve been brought together by artificial means, where that mechanic or something similar would have any chance whatsoever of causing a dragon minion to be corrupted by the energy of another dragon?
The only place I can think of where there’d even be a chance would be the destroyers and Risen in Mt Maelstrom, and even then there’s enough of a buffer that players would need to do a lot of luring to bring them together – I’m not sure that even then you could bring them close enough together that they’d corrupt one another without leashing. Meanwhile, most of the bases of groups formed to fight dragons would be pretty much permanently corrupted. Dragon minions could be made more susceptible to additional corruption, and we still wouldn’t see it.
We don’t see multicorruption in the wild because we don’t see the forces of multiple dragons mingling in the wild, it’s as simple as that. If they did, then it’s possible that it’d happen easily, just like a high enough concentration of uranium 235 can form a natural reactor. The stuff you’re talking about with the Inquest splitting off and concentrating dragon energies may be just like the other parts that go into a reactor – intended to increase the efficiency and controllability of the process, not something that is actually required for the process to occur.
Simply put, until we see the territories of two or more dragons actually overlapping, or some other circumstance where one dragon minion is subject to possible corruption by another, we simply cannot conclude anything about how hard it is for multicorruption to occur in the wild.
I’m thinking that the seeds/pale trees were created by someone or something to fight Mordremoth and the other dragons, and the reason they were deep in a cave guarded by plant creatures was to keep them from growing, perhaps because they’re not easily destroyed. If they really are Mordremoth’s minions, it wouldn’t make sense for some of them to be born with an insatiable urge to murder his brethren. Some may argue that the pale tree that we see was unique because of Ventari’s influence. However, I think Malyck’s temperament solidly disproves that the Sylvari are innately corrputed. He may not have Ventari’s hippie influence, but Malyck is clearly shown to be benevolent and altruistic.
I think a more probable theory is that Mordremoth’s means of obtaining minions is corrupting beings with a connection to the Dream. I have a feeling he’s responsible for the Nightmare Court.
I think a more probable theory is that Mordremoth’s means of obtaining minions is corrupting beings with a connection to the Dream. I have a feeling he’s responsible for the Nightmare Court.
Who act no more like dragon minions than the Inquest, or the Flame Legion…
In fact a few, like Gavin, are less evil than many other evil NPCs in the game.
I think a more probable theory is that Mordremoth’s means of obtaining minions is corrupting beings with a connection to the Dream. I have a feeling he’s responsible for the Nightmare Court.
Who act no more like dragon minions than the Inquest, or the Flame Legion…
In fact a few, like Gavin, are less evil than many other evil NPCs in the game.
True. It could be possible that the Nightmare Court is just an unintended consequence of his corruption. It’s worth noting that everything Mordremoth has corrupted has a connection to the Dream.
I think a more probable theory is that Mordremoth’s means of obtaining minions is corrupting beings with a connection to the Dream. I have a feeling he’s responsible for the Nightmare Court.
Who act no more like dragon minions than the Inquest, or the Flame Legion…
In fact a few, like Gavin, are less evil than many other evil NPCs in the game.
True. It could be possible that the Nightmare Court is just an unintended consequence of his corruption. It’s worth noting that everything Mordremoth has corrupted has a connection to the Dream.
What, the root tendrils? They’re not in the dream. Nothing else we know of is definitely connected to Mordremoth.
If Scarlet was, and Aerin is, it’s because they’re not connected to the dream.
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