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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

I finished the last part of this season and thought it was pretty good overall. A bit rushed on the details, but I liked how much of an egomaniac our Minister was. Canach’s banter about his bed and then noting the mirror on the ceiling was a nice touch too.

Although, I’m not too fond of the way Demmi was killed though. I mean, Caduceus, takes out some gun and shoots a dinky little bullet at her. I mean, it looks like one my rifle autoattacks. And then she gets fatally wounded. Okay, so guns kill people. Fine. But we just survived a fight with him where there was magic explosions over the place, and that is what does her in? But hey, he’s using forbidden magic; maybe it was a super magical bullet. Or maybe the typical excuse in fiction of being caught off guard. Whatever.

But she’s not dead yet. So we leave her with Logan who… does something? We kill the bad guy and come back only to find she’s now going to die. I mean he’s supposed to be a Guardian of some sorts right with healing magic? Or at least I recall him using some of those skills. But he does diddly squat. He isn’t just some random scrublord. He’s friggen Logan Thackery.

And then we get what amounts to Dr. Mccoy in Star Trek going “He’s dead Jim”.

I know it’s a common joke in especially RPGs of “why not just use a phoenix down” but it was kind of a mood killer.

Also, I blame Logan.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

(edited by ArchonWing.9480)

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Posted by: Arden.7480

Arden.7480

Demmi fought wih us and she was weakened as we were, but I doubt if someone who was attacked straight into heart would survive. It was totally unexpected so she could not dodge or defend herself.

During the cinematics I was like- whom is he going to attack? I hoped he will kill Canach or Anise, but that was shock for me he killed his own child.

Anyway there is nothing to blame Logan, that Caudecus was mad. We stood near Demmi and we did nothing to defend her.

“The Elder Dragon is no more”

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

It’s pretty much impossible to justify the death of any NPC in a game where our player characters can ‘die’ an infinite number of times and still finish the story. That’s the price of having a game that’s fun to play.

I’m not a big fan of the details of Demmi’s death, either. All the same, there aren’t too many alternatives. The main point is that her dad is responsible for her death and we get time to hear her last words. The specifics might be unimpressive, but that’s still a good plot twist.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Oh, I guess the Logan bashing was more of hyperbole; I wasn’t being completely serious. I mean obviously Minister Kitten is the reason why bad stuff happened and yes I understand why from a storyline view that the man is clearly even more sociopathic than at first glance.

As for personal character deaths, well, it does just say you “got defeated” with more practical reasons that your defeats aren’t acutally canon to the story as it’d vary from person to person.

And yes, I’m left wondering why I’m on a character with several available projectile reflects and even a contraption dedicated to res’ing, but alas that’s impossible to account for. I think I was more disappointed in the execution.

I gotta say though, being an NPC must suck, with the lack of plot armor and all.

EDIT: Bad spellcheck

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

(edited by ArchonWing.9480)

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Oh, I guess the Logan bashing was more of hyperbole; I wasn’t being completely serious.

Which is why I didn’t even address it

I mean obviously Minister Kitten is the reason why bad stuff happened and yes I understand why from a storyline view that the man is clearly even more sociopathic than at first glance.

Except, it’s not clear that he intended his daughter’s death.

As for personal character deaths, well, it does just say you “got defeated” with more practical reasons that your defeats aren’t acutally canon to the story as it’d vary from person to person.

Regardless of the jargon, not only do our character’s never die; they can’t die (or at least, they always return to battle ASAP). They aren’t immortal, just unkillable. That’s true to make the game more fun; the canon to make that happen is shoehorned in (as it is with nearly every modern game).

Similarly, NPCs never die either, if we need them for the story. (There’s only a handful of events that fatally end with the death of an NPC; many escort missions, e.g., allow us to rez the NPC being escorted.)

And yes, I’m left wondering why I’m on a character with several available projectile reflects and even a contraption dedicated to res’ing, but alas that’s impossible to account for.

It was a magic bloodstone bullet. (Plus, not all GW2 objects that are projected by magical or physical force are considered ‘projectiles’ for the purpose of blocking, reflection, or absorption.)

Regardless of the lore or game mechanics, it’s always going to be an odd thing for any character to die.

I think I was more disappointed in the execution.

Yup. At best, it was handled awkwardly.

(Perhaps it doesn’t bother me as much as it bothers you because, well, I expect a certain level of ‘awkward’ whenever there’s a looming contradiction, e.g. some NPCs can die, some can’t.)

I gotta say though, being an NPC must suck, with the lack of plot armor and all.

Yup.
For example

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

I mean obviously Minister Kitten is the reason why bad stuff happened and yes I understand why from a storyline view that the man is clearly even more sociopathic than at first glance.

Except, it’s not clear that he intended his daughter’s death.

I disagree, it was pretty clear that he intended to kill Demmi, especially after he confessed to killing his own wife. There’s no reason he’d talk about being reunited in the Mist right before shooting someone unless he was going for a killing shot.

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Yep, he said “we’ll be a family again.”

Of course, he also claimed that she was an imposter so the guy has more than a few ingots loose.

That bloodstone sure causes psychological damage.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

But she’s not dead yet. So we leave her with Logan who… does something? We kill the bad guy and come back only to find she’s now going to die. I mean he’s supposed to be a Guardian of some sorts right with healing magic? Or at least I recall him using some of those skills. But he does diddly squat. He isn’t just some random scrublord. He’s friggen Logan Thackery.

I’ll just point this out since it got forgotten in the 6 months time since Episode 1 – and even veterans of GW1 forgot this small aspect first introduced in Eye of the North:

Bloodstone weapons are super deadly. And that’s what Caudecus used on Demmi – you can tell by the weapon itself having bloodstone glows where the bullets were, let alone the fact that he was having the Bloodstone in Bloodstone Fen being mined to make weapons.

Bloodstone weapons cut sharper than any known steel, and would absorb any healing magic being used on the wound should a fragment remain.

The way Demmi doubles over also implies she got shot in or near the lung or stomach – a fatal wound when left untreated.

Add in the fact that Bloodstone is also poisonous, we’re basically seeing lead poisoning on steroids combined with the fact that any attempts at healing magic would probably make the bloodstone bullet grow (due to aforementioned absorption of magic).

All in all, this means short of grabbing a knife and pulling the bullet and each fragment out with utensils on the spot (which a society over-reliant on magic would no doubt not have on hand – especially Logan), Demmi was guaranteed to die the moment she was shot. And any magic Logan (or the Seraph Field Support) would do… would make the situation worse.

It’s pretty much impossible to justify the death of any NPC in a game where our player characters can ‘die’ an infinite number of times and still finish the story. That’s the price of having a game that’s fun to play.

Aside from all of the above, our PCs never actually die. That’s both a gameplay and lore mechanic.

There’s a reason why ArenaNet calls it “defeated” not “dead”. Our PC being defeated is akin to in tabletop being stabilized at -9 hit points in D&D. The same reason is why it’s called “revive” and not “resurrect.”

This was a big announcement for the lore side of things during GW2’s development, and why they got rid of resurrection magic in the lore and mechanics (which did exist in GW1) as well – reviving is not bringing back the dead, it’s just bringing back the near-dead to a nice and healthy state. Resurrection magic has not existed for over 200 years, for reasons still unknown (though suspected to be tied to Dhuum’s state of not-likely-imprisoned-anymore). Resurrection does “exist” but is “inaccessible” or “lost knowledge” in the world.

Similarly, any NPC you can revive are in a similar defeated state – those you cannot revive are truly dead, and no force in the known world can save their butts.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

During the cinematics I was like- whom is he going to attack? I hoped he will kill Canach or Anise, but that was shock for me he killed his own child.

I was actually really surprised he shot anyone at all. The way the dialogue was going I thought he was going to shoot himself. That didnt happen, he shot Demmi (possibly in delirium) and then walked into the fire. Then I thought is this how he’s gonna kill himself. But then it turnt into a parlor trick. Considering his delirium and wish to have Demmi back, I honestly thought he was gonna kill himself then and there.

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Posted by: SlippyCheeze.5483

SlippyCheeze.5483

During the cinematics I was like- whom is he going to attack? I hoped he will kill Canach or Anise, but that was shock for me he killed his own child.

I was actually really surprised he shot anyone at all. The way the dialogue was going I thought he was going to shoot himself. That didnt happen, he shot Demmi (possibly in delirium) and then walked into the fire. Then I thought is this how he’s gonna kill himself. But then it turnt into a parlor trick. Considering his delirium and wish to have Demmi back, I honestly thought he was gonna kill himself then and there.

I figured he had some master bloodstone related “ascend to godhood” type plan going on….

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

During the cinematics I was like- whom is he going to attack? I hoped he will kill Canach or Anise, but that was shock for me he killed his own child.

I was actually really surprised he shot anyone at all. The way the dialogue was going I thought he was going to shoot himself. That didnt happen, he shot Demmi (possibly in delirium) and then walked into the fire. Then I thought is this how he’s gonna kill himself. But then it turnt into a parlor trick. Considering his delirium and wish to have Demmi back, I honestly thought he was gonna kill himself then and there.

I figured he had some master bloodstone related “ascend to godhood” type plan going on….

Initially, yes, but by the time we got to him I kinda figured he was in a position where he would consider his defeat.. I mean, his regicide failed because he send a third rate noblewoman to assassinate her, then he was tormented by the “fake” daughter, it really wouldn’t be that strange if he just went like “I lost, but you’ll never take me alive”

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Oh, so is it one of those “self-punishment” things where you just feel so overwhelmed by the guilt that you might as well see it all crumble under your own hands?

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

I was actually really surprised he shot anyone at all. The way the dialogue was going I thought he was going to shoot himself. That didnt happen, he shot Demmi (possibly in delirium) and then walked into the fire. Then I thought is this how he’s gonna kill himself. But then it turnt into a parlor trick. Considering his delirium and wish to have Demmi back, I honestly thought he was gonna kill himself then and there.

It was made rather clear that Caudecus stopped caring about Demmi when she stopped being useful to him. I doubt he would have shot himself over her.

Oh, so is it one of those “self-punishment” things where you just feel so overwhelmed by the guilt that you might as well see it all crumble under your own hands?

Guilt doesn’t seem to be one of his things. He seems to have kitten syndrome, where his master plan is crumbling around him, but his ego is too large for him to realize his defeat, and instead he pursues ever more desperate and insane plans in a vain attempt to ward off the inevitable.

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Bloodstone weapons are super deadly. And that’s what Caudecus used on Demmi – you can tell by the weapon itself having bloodstone glows where the bullets were, let alone the fact that he was having the Bloodstone in Bloodstone Fen being mined to make weapons.

Bloodstone weapons cut sharper than any known steel, and would absorb any healing magic being used on the wound should a fragment remain.

The journal entries from Grand Savant Valis found in bloodstone fen mentioned that the WM had been experimenting with making weapons out of the bloodstone, but that the results where minimal.

“Utilizing fragments as basic ritual implements is fruitless and not significantly superior to traditional foci. Crafting weapons directly from the materials exhibits only minor phenomena.”

Also Caudecus’s pistol has a orange glow, not the red/black of bloodstone. Although that might be my graphics card. Moreover the glow is on the outside of the cylinder, if the glow was coming from the bullets themselves it would be coming from the front face of the cylinder where the bullet chambers are exposed, not from the exterior.

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Oh, so is it one of those “self-punishment” things where you just feel so overwhelmed by the guilt that you might as well see it all crumble under your own hands?

Guilt doesn’t seem to be one of his things. He seems to have kitten syndrome, where his master plan is crumbling around him, but his ego is too large for him to realize his defeat, and instead he pursues ever more desperate and insane plans in a vain attempt to ward off the inevitable.

He does, no doubt by the time we fight him, and certainly before when he “convinced” that official to fight to the death. But perhaps at some point his family represented some fragment of his humanity since he does rant about her daughter and being dead to her because of betrayal, and I think that went along with any semblance of morality.

Then again, it’s standard for sociopaths to blame their wrongdoings on other people betraying them though. Hard to say, it’s all crushed underneath his ego, lol.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The journal entries from Grand Savant Valis found in bloodstone fen mentioned that the WM had been experimenting with making weapons out of the bloodstone, but that the results where minimal.

“Utilizing fragments as basic ritual implements is fruitless and not significantly superior to traditional foci. Crafting weapons directly from the materials exhibits only minor phenomena.”

Valis was talking on a magical side of things, but back in GW1:

“in the hands of a good fletcher those shards can turn ordinary arrows into armor-piercing thunderbolts”

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Arrow's_Point#Initial_dialogue

In short: bloodstone weapons are kitten for containing magic, but they’re much more sharper than the common steel weapons – to the point of bloodstone tipped arrows easily piercing steel armor.

And that’s even ignoring how bloodstone grows when absorbing magic.

Also Caudecus’s pistol has a orange glow, not the red/black of bloodstone. Although that might be my graphics card. Moreover the glow is on the outside of the cylinder, if the glow was coming from the bullets themselves it would be coming from the front face of the cylinder where the bullet chambers are exposed, not from the exterior.

Caudecus’s pistol is definitely a red glow (black isn’t really prevalent with all things bloodstone), but in the cinematic there was definitely an orange glow from the fire which was brighter.

The cylinder of the gun has some bloodstone as part of the gun, but I also noticed some red fume-glow common from bloodstone shards coming from the front/back of the cylinders themselves.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

[quote=6554258;Konig Des Todes.2086:]

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

Valis was talking on a magical side of things, but back in GW1:

“in the hands of a good fletcher those shards can turn ordinary arrows into armor-piercing thunderbolts”

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Arrow's_Point#Initial_dialogue

In short: bloodstone weapons are kitten for containing magic, but they’re much more sharper than the common steel weapons – to the point of bloodstone tipped arrows easily piercing steel armor.

And that’s even ignoring how bloodstone grows when absorbing magic.

But any benefit of bloodstone weapons must be from magical phenomena. There can’t be a non-magical benefit to bloodstone as a material that would justify the risk and cost of acquiring it.

Sharpness of a weapon is unrelated to material. Sharpness comes from the skill of the crafter and realistically you only need a weapon to be so sharp, and sharpness beyond is superfluous. Moreover sharper weapons actually deal less damage because they split the flesh cleanly rather than tearing. (this is why punctures from hypodermic needles don’t bleed much despite puncturing a inch or more)

Now harder materials do keep their sharpness much longer than softer materials, but that doesn’t increase the in-combat effectiveness.

“in the hands of a good fletcher those shards can turn ordinary arrows into armor-piercing thunderbolts”
In short: bloodstone weapons are kitten for containing magic, but they’re much more sharper than the common steel weapons – to the point of bloodstone tipped arrows easily piercing steel armor.

That doesn’t make any sense outside of magical phenomena. Normal arrows can’t pierce plate armor because they glace off without expending enough kinetic energy to punch through. Piercing armor requires having a projectile that has sufficient kinetic energy to punch the plate before glancing.
Kinetic energy is mass * velocity2. So you either break the plate by having a really heavy projectile or you pierce it by having a extremely high velocity projectile. (which is how modern armor piercing weapons work.

The GW1 quote only talks about the arrow being made of bloodstone. Since BS is a material and arrows are not self-propelling then the only property related to kinetic energy would be the mass, in order words bloodstone arrow is really really heavy. However a increase in mass would require a bow with a much stronger draw strength, or else the super heavy bloodstone arrow will lose it’s velocity and thus is energy. But if you where to have such a strong bow, you’d be better off with lighter arrows for even more velocity because kinetic energy scales more off of velocity than mass. (which is why super light bullets still pierce armor)

The GW1 quote has to be referring to some magical property of the bloodstone in the arrow that makes it pierce armor better, since no non-magical explanation would make sense.

The only explanations I can see to reconcile Valis’s journal and GW1’s entry, is bloodstone weapons do have magical phenomena, and the White Mantel just suck at making magical weapons.

Caudecus’s pistol is definitely a red glow (black isn’t really prevalent with all things bloodstone), but in the cinematic there was definitely an orange glow from the fire which was brighter.

The cylinder of the gun has some bloodstone as part of the gun, but I also noticed some red fume-glow common from bloodstone shards coming from the front/back of the cylinders themselves.

I only saw the cutscene once back when it launched so you are probably right.

Bloodstone really wouldn’t make a better bullet though. Of course it could be one of Valis’s not-so-effective experimental bloodstone weapons that he just sent to Caudecus as proof of effort (or he lied to Caudecus about it’s effectiveness.)

Also the bullet can’t have been bloodstone because Demmi did not exhibit any of the effects of bloodstone wounds. The bloodstone fen journals explicitly talked about the exotic effects of bloodstone intruding on the body. And the effects of bloodstone can clearly been seen when Matthias becomes the bloodstone abomination after injecting himself with the stuff during the raid encounter.

Demmi only seems to suffer effects typical of a gunshot wound. Perhaps Logan’s magic is only protective in nature and not regenerative.

It could also be possible that Caudicus’s pistol was using bloodstone as the propellant and not the bullet. (perhaps bloodstone is better than gunpowder?)

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: Eirian Direstorm.9748

Eirian Direstorm.9748

Aside form the weapons, Caudecus has clearly himself already absorbed bloodstone magic. Perhaps the deadly effects come more from that?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

That doesn’t make any sense outside of magical phenomena. Normal arrows can’t pierce plate armor because they glace off without expending enough kinetic energy to punch through. Piercing armor requires having a projectile that has sufficient kinetic energy to punch the plate before glancing.
Kinetic energy is mass * velocity2. So you either break the plate by having a really heavy projectile or you pierce it by having a extremely high velocity projectile. (which is how modern armor piercing weapons work.

It can make sense, actually, since penetration it’s not just about kinetic energy – the contact area is also relevant, with a smaller contact area being advantageous (with is why pick-type weapons are better at penetrating armour). A significant difference in sharpness, then, translates into the same kinetic energy distributed over a smaller area, which makes for a greater chance of penetration.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

That doesn’t make any sense outside of magical phenomena. Normal arrows can’t pierce plate armor because they glace off without expending enough kinetic energy to punch through. Piercing armor requires having a projectile that has sufficient kinetic energy to punch the plate before glancing.
Kinetic energy is mass * velocity2. So you either break the plate by having a really heavy projectile or you pierce it by having a extremely high velocity projectile. (which is how modern armor piercing weapons work.

It can make sense, actually, since penetration it’s not just about kinetic energy – the contact area is also relevant, with a smaller contact area being advantageous (with is why pick-type weapons are better at penetrating armour). A significant difference in sharpness, then, translates into the same kinetic energy distributed over a smaller area, which makes for a greater chance of penetration.

Except Arrows even pointy ones still can’t pierce plate armor. Even modern testing with machined bodkin point arrows (bodkin points is as pointy as arrows get) where not able to pierce armor.

And again the pointy/sharpness of a weapon comes from it’s craftsmanship not from the material.

Any advantage that comes from bloodstone weapons must be magical in nature. (especially since bloodstone is so rare that using it as a simple crafting material would be cost ineffective.)

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Material absolutely does matter. Crystalline materials such as diamond, obsidian, and glass can hold and maintain a sharper edge than metals. The problem is that in the real world, materials that can hold sharper edges are usually more susceptible to shattering – metal usually has the strength to hold up to an impact, while obsidian shatters against armour.

So if bloodstone can hold a sharper edge than steel and is strong enough that it won’t shatter on impact, it might make for a superior point.

Of course, the shattering might be the point. We see in episodes 1 and 4 that unstable bloodstone tends to release its magic in an explosion – this may be what is being weaponised. They may even have been looking to get a shaped-charge effect.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Not to mention that bloodstones themselves are innately magical and thus may not be entirely subject to natural physics. Weaponized, they may prove to be better not only due to material choice (which, indeed, does matter), but also for adding a magical component upon the standard non-magical weapon use.

It’s merely a case of being unable to strengthen spellcasters, which was what Valis was focused on.

Either way, we know that bloodstone shards can be weaponized and that they indeed can more easily pierce armor than standard weapons.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

So if bloodstone can hold a sharper edge than steel and is strong enough that it won’t shatter on impact, it might make for a superior point.

But bows still flat out do not impart enough energy to pierce armor. Perhaps Charr or Norn longbows might, but not anything that the human White Mantel army could do.

Also you’re assuming that they even have the ability to machine a sharper point.

Also any such advantageous effect would have been noted by Valis. The journal’s say they that they where looking to weaponize the stone. There was no statement that they where looking for strictly magical weapons like King Des Todes implies.

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It’s not just about kinetic energy. In fact, it’s not about kinetic energy at all, but the pressure the projectile applies to the armour. It is possible to break armour with no kinetic energy at all if you apply enough pressure (think of a vice…) – although admittedly, the pressure applied by a projectile will be proportional to energy, as described below:

Pressure is force divided by area. The force, according to Newton’s law, would be the force requires to reduce the projectile’s momentum to zero before it deforms the armour enough to punch through. A sharper point, however, leads to a smaller area, which can massively multiply the pressure if you achieve a narrow enough point.

Regarding my supposed assumption: Getting an edge sharper than steel on glass or obsidian is easy. It’s part of why broken glass is so dangerous. The various South American civilisations made use of this, although of course obsidian is more fragile than steel, and when an obsidian arrow is used against armour, it’s more likely that the point would shatter.

So, tests done with steel points do not necessarily apply. A material which has crystal-like sharpness and metal-like tensile strength may well exhibit superior armour penetration performance.

Note, though, that the quote doesn’t actually say that the points were sharper: ‘strikes like thunderbolts’ does sound to me like something might be exploding. A shaped charge effect would make kinetic energy effectively irrelevant.

Regarding Valis… Valis may simply have neglected to try bloodstone arrowheads, and igiven how far and wide the pages were spread, it’s possible that there were more pages we haven’t found. From E4, it’s pretty clear that the bloodstone weapon research did play dividends, but we don’t see mentions of that.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

I’m going to start by pointing out that the whole discussion is teed off of King Des Tode’s claim that bloodstone weapons where superior without counting any magical phenomena. So any explanation involving magical explody arrows supports my original claim.

Pressure is still going to be proportional to kinetic energy in the case of a projectile. While bloodstone may yield a better point, it’s still not going to be armor piercing, because how weak bows in general are. The only case I could ever find of a confirmed piercing of armor with a bow, was a modern test with a 160lb bow firing a bodkin point at steel breastplate at point blank. However a 160lb bow is well beyond what even practiced archers can pull. (estimates for the famous English Longbows where generally 80-110lbs, and firing those required a lifetime of practice)

You are correct about WM not testing bows. Because the WM never uses archers, and instead favor firearms, which makes sense since firearms will easily pierce armor without needing to be made of any hyper-rare material, and can be picked up with minimal training.

Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Then let me clarify – again – what I meant by “without counting any magical phenomena” as “without empowering spellcasting”.

It’s pretty clear – as has been brought up – that simply throwing bloodstone shards will cause some magical phenomena.

Ultimately, however, the reason why it’s so is irrelevant because we know it is so. We’re outright told that bloodstone weapons are very effective – effective enough to make mere arrows tipped with bloodstone shards capable of penetrating armor (and most likely steel armor at that). Whether you attribute the reason to the unique material of bloodstone, magical phenomena, both, or something else, the fact remains unchanged that bloodstone blades cut better than steel.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

“Confessor Caudecus, we’ve searched everywhere. She’s nowhere to be found.”

-Enough, you fool. Get out! I’ll find her.. I’ll find her if I have to burn down all of kryta..

Like fire, hellfire, now Demmi it’s your turn.
Choose me or your pyre, come home or you will burn!
The Six have mercy on her..
The Six have mercy on me..
But she will come home or she will burn!

-

For some reason I have this picture of Caudecus singing Frollo’s hellfire.. I dunno why.. for some reason it fits..

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Probably due to the loading screen baring a striking resemblance to the Hellfire scene. You’re far from the only one who made that connection.

I even made a little parody based on the portrait comment at the end of the mission… Just for kittens and giggles.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Chadramar.8156

Chadramar.8156

I haven’t finished the Whispers storyline so I never met Demmi and didn’t care for her one way or another, but her death was definitely cheap as hell … especially compared to the constant untouchable-mesmer-ex-machina spam the writers enjoy so much.

IMO it’s completely irrelevant what kind of weapon he may or may not have used, because it doesn’t affect anyone else in that way. So yeah, this felt like cheap drama for cheap drama’s sake, and without making sure people have a reason to be invested in this character to boot.

Granted, writing a “good” on-screen death isn’t easy … especially when you should take player agency into concern as well. But after the shameless fridging of Eir, I’d say the story should take extra care to avoid cheap deaths, not add more. (Then again, after Ep3 I’d consider it poetic justice if Braham-the-Brat got offed pitifully too.)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

IMO it’s completely irrelevant what kind of weapon he may or may not have used, because it doesn’t affect anyone else in that way.

Forum complaints about the mission shows otherwise.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I’m going to start by pointing out that the whole discussion is teed off of King Des Tode’s claim that bloodstone weapons where superior without counting any magical phenomena. So any explanation involving magical explody arrows supports my original claim.

Pressure is still going to be proportional to kinetic energy in the case of a projectile. While bloodstone may yield a better point, it’s still not going to be armor piercing, because how weak bows in general are. The only case I could ever find of a confirmed piercing of armor with a bow, was a modern test with a 160lb bow firing a bodkin point at steel breastplate at point blank. However a 160lb bow is well beyond what even practiced archers can pull. (estimates for the famous English Longbows where generally 80-110lbs, and firing those required a lifetime of practice)

You are correct about WM not testing bows. Because the WM never uses archers, and instead favor firearms, which makes sense since firearms will easily pierce armor without needing to be made of any hyper-rare material, and can be picked up with minimal training.

To make things clear: I personally support magic explodey arrows, but from my physics training, I’m not going to let erroneous claims stand.

A crystalline edge, such as obsidian or diamond, can get down to a monomolecular edge, or close to it. Steel points, including bodkins, are fairly blunt by that standard. Crystalline arrowheads, however, are generally not used because they’re fragile: shoot them at a steel plate, and they’ll shatter under the pressure before the steel does.

In fact, your test is telling me that, if a suitable material existed, then it certainly would be possible to make an arrowhead that’s sharp enough to penetrate armour. The tests you cite show that it’s possible at about 50% more force than able to be provided by a human archer. Now let’s look at that pressure equation again. Force divided by area. Reduce the area by half – through building a pointier arrowhead – and that may well be the equivalent, in armour penetration terms, to doubling the kinetic energy. Find a material that can have such an edge and that can survive the impact, and you may well have yourself an armour-piercing arrow, at least at short range. (There are additional factors that I’m not taking into account with these back-of-the-envelope calculations, which is why I’m hedging with a ‘maybe’, but certainly, tests with steel points are not representative of what a sharper material might achieve. They are, at best, indicative of how much sharper it would have to be.)

And also, are you sure about the White Mantle not using bows? That said, “true” White Mantle using conventional ranged weapons are rare: most of their focus is on, as Rytlock put it, being creepy magickers, so most of their ranged is magikittenil you get to the level of Jade Bows and Jade Cannons.

(“True”, in this sense, refers to White Mantle in uniform, rather than bandits and so on which might well be White Mantle or might simply be stooges.)

We see even less firearms, in fact: those we see are mostly associated with bandits and the like that are being used by, but which aren’t necessarily part of, the White Mantle – and those that are knowingly White Mantle had probably already developed their firearm skills before being inducted, rather than being “New Krytans” born and raised in White Mantle territory. While the two most recent known Confessors both used pistols, this might be reflective that both were recruited from Kryta proper – and rose in rank thanks to their use of contacts in Kryta – rather than being lifelong members.

So it’s not unbelieveable that Valis et al didn’t immediately think of bloodstone arrowheads… they were focusing on other things. Likely including hoping to get more powerful magical foci (likely a dead end as Konig indicates – power goes in, power doesn’t come out until the bloodstone shatters). It stands to reason that the first response of a bunch of ‘creepy magickers’ to the idea of weaponising bloodstone might be to produce better magical focii and similar weapons and they might neglect something as simple as an arrowhead, while for the Shining Blade, which relied mostly on archery in the time of the original Guild Wars, it would be the first thing they think of.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Amaimon.7823

Amaimon.7823

Probably due to the loading screen baring a striking resemblance to the Hellfire scene. You’re far from the only one who made that connection.

I even made a little parody based on the portrait comment at the end of the mission… Just for kittens and giggles.

Glad I’m not the only one.. although I’m a little concerned that you used Logan..
I mean.. we found his painting in his study.. but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t send a shiver down my spine

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I think that might be exactly WHY he went with Logan.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

That, and the idea of Caudecus crushing over Logan and that’s why he didn’t attack until Logan was out of the combat equation is just too funny to pass up a parody of.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Ookamikun.6472

Ookamikun.6472

Oh well, at least she’s with Tybalt in that apple farm in the sky now.

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Well, I’m actually pretty impressed by the conversation here. Didn’t think there’d be so much to consider. Thanks all.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: WindFall.1479

WindFall.1479

I’m almost 5 months late, but I just completed the episode and I can’t help but express my disappointment about how cheap Demmi’s death was. The writers just killed off the second most recognizable member of The Order of Whispers (the only other being Tybalt), and for what? To help leverage Valette as a redeemable character? Why would I care about Valette now? To shoehorn some tragic family theme where every Beetlestone dies? That’s unoriginal.

We don’t even get a single intermission to catch up with Demmi after not seeing her for 4 years. Not even a voiceless dialogue window. Just her referencing Tybalt throughout Confessor’s End just to say “Hey! Remember Tybalt? I bet you do! He helped bring Demmi to the Order of Whispers! By the way Demmi’s going to die too.”

Why couldn’t she appear in Episode 1 at Bloodstone Fen? Was she too busy doing nothing about Scarlet and Mordremoth to investigate Caudecus’ whereabouts? If we had time to get to know her again I bet I wouldn’t feel so robbed from her death. But we don’t, and now we have this.

I just… man this is lame.

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Posted by: takatsu.9416

takatsu.9416

haha what’s a story without some lame clich├ęd tragedy and drama!

also I just fought caudecus without any magic mastery that someone told me would’ve helped. I hated CM as a dungeon because of the close quarters, nowhere to move, and bad camera angles and couldn’t believe I had to do this again with 20 stacks of confusion and torment and whatever hitting me sometimes and the non stop aoe and cc. I’m used to never dying soloing things in pve or never dying in dungeons but this was like omg. but it was oddly fun and satisfying to find something actually challenging and impossible for once. I just stripped naked and ran back at him hahaha. but the npcs were actually invincible in the fight lol I watched anise try to revive me with like no health left over and over, fun times