Guild Wars 2

If Caithe isn’t harshly punished for her sins, then I’m going to call foul on the writers. I can’t think of anything more disappointing than the writers forcing our character to forgive her for what she’s done.

Eh, I have forgiven worse people. Canach isn’t exactly a saint either, and I’m a huge fan of his :T
I wish my character was not so harsh with him.

I do wish in general we had more control over how forgiving our characters are toward the NPCs. My character would forgive Caithe, but she would also have forgiven Canach a long time ago and it feels strange every time the dialog forces her to give him a hard time.

It could be as simple as having a couple of different unvoiced dialog options to choose from so we could pick our tone.

My character would kill Caithe for:

1. Deceiving me in a moment of crisis.
2. Leading me on a wild goose chase all over Tyria.
3. Helping a psychopath kill innocent people and creatures.
4. Abandoning me in a fight against a deadly dragon champion.
5. Not trusting me.

My character is ruthless an cold to most.

Xenon.4537:

My character would kill Caithe for:

1. Deceiving me in a moment of crisis.
2. Leading me on a wild goose chase all over Tyria.
3. Helping a psychopath kill innocent people and creatures.
4. Abandoning me in a fight against a deadly dragon champion.
5. Not trusting me.

My character is ruthless an cold to most.

I understand Caithe’s reasons, even if I do not agree with what she did (same for Canach). I really wish we had more control over the way we treat the NPCs. In a perfect game, I would also be able to make meaningful choices (like going with the Pact instead of looking for the egg or choosing if a character lives or dies), but just having a few options on how we speak to NPCs would be fine too. I mean, it is just more text, so it can’t be that hard to implement.
I really liked the personality thing, too, and it is a shame it was removed instead of expanded. It would be a good way to deal with this problem

What I don’t like is why didn’t Caithe and Wynne… you know… attack Faolain?! Not necessarily kill her, but at least subdue her and take her to the Tree for judgement. I mean, they were 2v1 there… I understand Faolain had growing support within their people, but this seemed a far better option to me than just killing Wynne. It can be put to shock, I guess, but it doesn’t seem proper. I like the terrible decision that Caithe had to make, but it seems a bit unnecessary. However, for the reasons above, I guess it can be alright. Just… it could have been done better, the situation could have been manipulated by the writers so as to make the decision seem the only way at the time. Not that big of a deal, though, considering how good the final episode was.

caithe is in love with faolain!

A possible explanation for why Wynne had to die there was that Faolain had likely informed the rest of the proto-Courtiers that Wynne knew something – and Caithe and Wynne likely wouldn’t have known everyone who was so informed. Alive, Wynne would have constantly been a target, one whom sooner or later might have been caught and broken.

It’s possible to continue to work with her without forgiving her. While Justice is a virtue, so too is Compassion.

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

What I don’t like is why didn’t Caithe and Wynne… you know… attack Faolain?! Not necessarily kill her, but at least subdue her and take her to the Tree for judgement.

Because Faolain’s suspicion had a bit of a following by that point. And, really, Wynne was carrying a secret around with her that was maddening. If it wasn’t Faolain chasing her across Tyria, it would be somebody else. In the end, figuring to let the secret die with her (people know that Wynne knows, nobody knows that Caithe knows…until later), seems heroic.

The Pale Tree knew though and never told anyone, and Wynne’s heroic suicide didn’t do anything to stop the chain of events. In the end, she died in vain.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s possible to continue to work with her without forgiving her.

Correction. It might be possible if she actually tried to cooperate, instead of just fleeing with stolen goods. As it is now, she simply cannot be trusted with anything important, because she might get ideas, or abandon allies in the hour of need. And the trust, once lost, is not easily regained (not that she even tries to regain it).

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s possible to continue to work with her without forgiving her.

Correction. It might be possible if she actually tried to cooperate, instead of just fleeing with stolen goods. As it is now, she simply cannot be trusted with anything important, because she might get ideas, or abandon allies in the hour of need. And the trust, once lost, is not easily regained (not that she even tries to regain it).

Doesn’t matter too much if I trust her . . . if I still need her alive. As for “stolen goods”, it was given. Not stolen. It’d be stealing if we took it by force from her after this, or coerced her into giving it up.

. . . and I’m not entirely certain I’d trust most of our allies with it.

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

What I don’t like is why didn’t Caithe and Wynne… you know… attack Faolain?! Not necessarily kill her, but at least subdue her and take her to the Tree for judgement. I mean, they were 2v1 there… I understand Faolain had growing support within their people, but this seemed a far better option to me than just killing Wynne. It can be put to shock, I guess, but it doesn’t seem proper. I like the terrible decision that Caithe had to make, but it seems a bit unnecessary. However, for the reasons above, I guess it can be alright. Just… it could have been done better, the situation could have been manipulated by the writers so as to make the decision seem the only way at the time. Not that big of a deal, though, considering how good the final episode was.

Caithe is in Love with Faolain as other mentioned, plus it’s 2v1 inside the cave… outside of it there are several other sylvari loyal to Faolain that helped kill the centaurs waiting, I don’t think they’d sit around nicely if they see Caithe and Wynne dragging Faolain out of the cave.

On Wynne dying in vain:

I’m not sure. In this timeline, Mordremoth only had Ceara working for it, and that after an unfortunate event left Ceara open. In another timeline, there might not have been a Scarlet and Mordremoth may have stayed asleep for another forty years. While in yet another timeline, Faolain might have learned the secret back then, decided that she preferred Mordremoth to the Pale Tree, and the entire Nightmare Court could have been working to wake Mordremoth since its creation, leading to Mordremoth rising before Zhaitan was defeated.

Her sacrifice was undermined by Omadd’s carelessness, but it probably did still buy time.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s possible to continue to work with her without forgiving her.

Correction. It might be possible if she actually tried to cooperate, instead of just fleeing with stolen goods. As it is now, she simply cannot be trusted with anything important, because she might get ideas, or abandon allies in the hour of need. And the trust, once lost, is not easily regained (not that she even tries to regain it).

Depends on what she eventually ends up doing with it. It may be that it will turn out that she’s genuinely done the best thing with it – we’ll find out.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s possible to continue to work with her without forgiving her.

Correction. It might be possible if she actually tried to cooperate, instead of just fleeing with stolen goods. As it is now, she simply cannot be trusted with anything important, because she might get ideas, or abandon allies in the hour of need. And the trust, once lost, is not easily regained (not that she even tries to regain it).

If Mordremoth getting the egg would really be that disastrous (which is what we’ve been led to believe at least, and I’d be inclined to believe, who knows what a dragon might do if given the chance to corrupt an unborn dragon) then Caithe taking the egg and fleeing is the best course of action when confronted by the Shadow of the Dragon, really.

If Caithe had stayed to fight alongside you, then sure, she might be helpful during the battle and raised the chances of it being defeated. However, had the battle been lost then it’d be game over. The Shadow would have the egg, and there wouldn’t even really be anyone left to try and retrieve it at that point either, since Trehearne and the rest of Destiny’s Edge are busy with the attack on Mordy himself and obviously the player and the biconics would all be dead. And no one else knows about the egg other than perhaps Canach, who may or may not have also gone with the Pact on their assault, and the Pale Tree, whose somewhat indisposed at the moment.

On the other hand, Caithe fleeing with the egg has a 100% chance of keeping it out of Mordremoth’s hands, at least for the time being. And its not like she’s leaving the player completely alone or anything, they still have the biconics for backup.

Stealing the egg meant for us, deserting us twice (and don’t feed me that nonsense about the egg, she still could’ve come back after the fight was over), still no explanation for what she’s planning (and the revelation of Sylvari being vulnerable to control meaning she could be subtlely under it’s influence or fall too)…I’d say she can’t be trusted. My Sylvari would taken the egg back immediately, my Asura would’ve shot her and been done with it.

So what about Vorpp. He experimented on the sylvari early on, under the eye of the Arcane Eye, but later helped against Scarlet.

Same with Caithe, who, along with a whole nightmare squadron and Faolain (Never forget that part), helped with the massacre of the centaur village. (Which also had a dark past, as they say themselves) And she later helped to great extend against two of the other dragons, and now does something that she believes will protect the egg. Also the whole centaur massacre was entirely Faolain’s plan, just because Caithe is there and protects the one she loves, or so she assumes at least. Plus it’s a 20+ years old “crime”, if you can call it that. She’s an accomplice at best.

On a side note, who is to say that because we broke the seal the egg wasn’t safe anymore in that specific location, the dragon did attack shortly after the seal was broken.

Does this mean Logan should be trialed as well for not killing kralkatorrik with the rest of Destiny’s edge possibly responsible for killing loads of others since.

Not to mention that Wynne was the one asking to be killed. It’s not like Caithe was like, You have to die!

I find this whole black and white thinking to be making up a completely uninteresting for a story. So Caithe isn’t 100 % holy and shiny. So what. She basically ran away with the egg saying, Trust me, I’m on your side. and not “NYAHAHAHA I have the eee-eeggg.”

The logan comparison is an interesting, but doesn’t show in Caithe’s favor. He had a very clear and valid conflict of interest, and it was clear to everyone what choice he had to make between the (believed) threat to Jennah and the battle with Krak.

Caithe, on the other hand, has a dark secret she’s ashamed of, never describes the reasons (I’m sorry, “THERES NO TIME!!!” doesn’t actually cut it it as a valid excuse, take 30 seconds). and just says ‘trust me’ with no cause, while explicitly going against the prophecy/will of her creator (one of the most knowledgable and powerful beings in the world).

You can make a good arguement in Logan’s case. He was probably wrong, but they did a good job setting the conflict (between his loyalty to DE and his Oath to and love interest in Jennah) and selling it. AFAIK they know why he left, they just thought he made the wrong call.

The secrecy is a major issue (one lacking with Logan), and is far easier to justify within a framework of her own shame and personal flaws than in any interest in the greater good. If they’re meaning to represent her as dodgy and manipulative then they did a good job, if they expect us to actually trust her they’re doing a terrible job.

Well I didn’t meant that Logan was exactly the same as Caithe. :p It’s just that everyone has made mistakes. Everyone, even those Centaurs, has a darker past.

This equivocation between what Logan and Caithe did is a silly one, in my opinion. Logan abandoned his allies in the heat of battle to save his liege. While his motives were selfish, he’s under no obligation to fight dragons. He is, however, sworn to protect his queen. Caithe, on the other hand, murdered her someone because she lacked the conviction to stand up to her psychopathic lover.

Sylvari will rule the world! Her crimes are already forgivin!

darkace.8925

Caithe, on the other hand, murdered her someone because she lacked the conviction to stand up to her psychopathic lover.

Or she had the conviction to do something distasteful to stand up to her in the only way which could be done at that time – remember, Faolain wasn’t alone.

darkace.8925:

This equivocation between what Logan and Caithe did is a silly one, in my opinion. Logan abandoned his allies in the heat of battle to save his liege. While his motives were selfish, he’s under no obligation to fight dragons. He is, however, sworn to protect his queen. Caithe, on the other hand, murdered her someone because she lacked the conviction to stand up to her psychopathic lover.

+1

The only halfway decent explanations for Caithe’s behavior rely on her being a weak-willed idiot. It’s understandable that she would be, after being in a relationship with someone as creepy as Faolain, but that doesn’t excuse it or make what happened any less of an outrage.

psh, Caithe’s is a double agent. It’s so obvious.

Personally, my question is why Caithe has been holding onto the egg for so long without doing anything with it if she had no time to explain why. Unless she’s already done it and just dropped by our encounter with the Shadow of the Dragon to say “hi good luck bye”.

I have a feeling she isn’t explaining because you’re not going to like the explanation.

If she is with us and is trying to keep the egg safe, she is hiding in hard to reach/sealed locations or on the move constantly. That makes her harder to pinpoint and track, and just utilizes her greatest strenght, mobility and stealth. What would the Pact do with the egg? Probably lock it up in the Priory underground vaults (might be a good idea unless Mord’s roots just burst through the walls one day), or keep it on the move as they did with the Royal Locket on guarded caravans (that, as it turns out, isnt safe enough either).

The risk is that she is indeed a sylvari, and with the trust issues coming up against them with all the Mordremoth influence going on, it will be harder and harder to trust her with this charge. Until we understand how this influence works and how or if Caithe can resist it in the long run, her guarding it is a risk, regardless of her intentions.

A fair point, but a rebuttal – everything we have tried to protect? Generally hasn’t fared well. Fort Salma? Lion’s Arch? Ascalon? Yeah, we did a lot of good defending them from invaders and despoilers.

If your point is that there is no safe place, i whole-heartedly agree.

The thing is, if she wanted to destroy it, she would have done so already. Now i guess it is a waiting game for it to hatch. I wonder just when is that supposed to happen, Glint being dead for about 9 years now.

lakdav.3694:

If your point is that there is no safe place, i whole-heartedly agree.

The thing is, if she wanted to destroy it, she would have done so already. Now i guess it is a waiting game for it to hatch. I wonder just when is that supposed to happen, Glint being dead for about 9 years now.

I’m not talking about her destroying it – that’s not her goal, so it would seem. Or as you say, it’d be done. It’d be done, and we’d all be screwed. What worries me is her taking it and more and more people being aware she has it . . . drawing attention to it.

We don’t need . . . certain parties . . . interested in the potential power of a dragon egg. I’m not just talking about Mordremoth here. Can you think of what, oh, the Flame Legion would be able to do if they could get their hands on it? It’d make the Searing look like a backyard barbecue.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

darkace.8925

Caithe, on the other hand, murdered her someone because she lacked the conviction to stand up to her psychopathic lover.

Or she had the conviction to do something distasteful to stand up to her in the only way which could be done at that time – remember, Faolain wasn’t alone.

You seem to forget that someone has the most OP stealth in the game… As a thief, I could have easily gotten away from them, she could have to, no problem. Her entire build was as an ASSASSIN. All these things saying she was forced because there was no way out….Just ridiculous imo. Pretty much ANY other class and it would maybe make sense, but Caithe is designed to be able to kill someone and then be able to get out.

Sure.

. . . but all that stealth capability and she can’t tank Zhaitan herself?

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

I do wish in general we had more control over how forgiving our characters are toward the NPCs. My character would forgive Caithe, but she would also have forgiven Canach a long time ago and it feels strange every time the dialog forces her to give him a hard time.

It could be as simple as having a couple of different unvoiced dialog options to choose from so we could pick our tone.

I’m not sure if there’s a technical limit to how complicated their dialog trees can go, but definitely I’d like some variety in my responses.

Xenon.4537:

My character would kill Caithe for:

1. Deceiving me in a moment of crisis.
2. Leading me on a wild goose chase all over Tyria.
3. Helping a psychopath kill innocent people and creatures.
4. Abandoning me in a fight against a deadly dragon champion.
5. Not trusting me.

My character is ruthless an cold to most.

Although I’m not a RPer, I do like to humanize my characters and I think your character is pretty in line with my Necro. Mind you my Ranger would forgive her. But my Ranger is a Sylvari and you know can’t trust them, not even to respond correctly.

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

What I don’t like is why didn’t Caithe and Wynne… you know… attack Faolain?! Not necessarily kill her, but at least subdue her and take her to the Tree for judgement.

Ignoring the whole centaur business, judgement for what? For being extremely nosy? Threatening to hurt Wynne? I think Faolain’s future is getting ahead of itself. From Caithe’s perspective she wasn’t evil, and she was still extremely torn over if Faolain even kill the centaurs.

Electro.4173:

who knows what a dragon might do if given the chance to corrupt an unborn dragon

My guess is he’d probably just eat it. I think the biggest threat is not Mordy getting the egg, but us losing the egg.

Nilkemia.8507:

(and the revelation of Sylvari being vulnerable to control meaning she could be subtlely under it’s influence or fall too)

I’d personally prefer something like a subtle influence myself. Currently it seems like the line is pretty clear, either you’re corrupted and loony as a bag of cats or your not and you’re mostly fine. The idea of a Mordy having a subtle influence over all Sylvari brings in a new dimension of mistrust. Sure Caithe isn’t corrupted, but can we truly trust that her actions might not be influenced ever so slightly? How about that guard standing over there? Can I trust him to have my back?

FrizzFreston.5290:

On a side note, who is to say that because we broke the seal the egg wasn’t safe anymore in that specific location, the dragon did attack shortly after the seal was broken.

My Charr Necromancer says yes.

xXMapcoXx.9614:

Sylvari will rule the world! Her crimes are already forgivin!

Don’t you mean Mordy….

CureForLiving.5360:

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

I do wish in general we had more control over how forgiving our characters are toward the NPCs. My character would forgive Caithe, but she would also have forgiven Canach a long time ago and it feels strange every time the dialog forces her to give him a hard time.

It could be as simple as having a couple of different unvoiced dialog options to choose from so we could pick our tone.

I’m not sure if there’s a technical limit to how complicated their dialog trees can go, but definitely I’d like some variety in my responses.

I’m sure there’s a technical limitation, but I don’t think implementing this would have to be any more complex than what’s already in the game.

There are already many occasions where the player can choose between 2-3 unvoiced dialog options and trigger either a slightly varied unvoiced NPC response or a generic enough NPC response that it would fit whichever choice you made.

A good example is the dynamic event in Queensdale that begins with convincing Ine Duran to go fishing again after she’s been scared by the barracuda. Regardless of what you say to her she still does what you ask her to, so there’s no major difference in event scripting, but you can take three different tones with her to establish your own character, and her (unvoiced) verbal response is slightly different to reflect that.

If that’s possible for a minor dynamic event in a starting area, surely it would also be possible for inclusion in the living story?

It doesn’t have to be anything big or complicated, just a small amount of choice to give the player more agency when it comes to roleplaying our characters.