Guild Wars 2

Sampi.5079:

Zinwrath.2049:

Honestly the OP point is being bashed down, but he has one point.

The games combat is not like Leauge of legends or any strategy game of that nature for one core difference. League of legends is designed around the eventual 5on5 team fight which makes up the last phase of the game.

Guild wars 2 is not like other games in the sense the team fight never happens. So there is no need for balancing around it. Instead fights will happen mostly in 1on1’s 2on2’s occasionally 3on3’s and rarely anything higher.

Now your left with very few roles where a game like league of legends needs a tank/initiator a ranged ad carry, an ap carry, and a jungler, and a support. Each have clearly defined roles that work together to help for great success in the game through all the phases.

What are GW2 roles? Its bunker or people trying to take a point away from a bunker. there a few combinational strategys but there is not 5 roles to fill and the matches are not built around large team combat. So in the end, the balancing has to be built towards the typical fights that will happen.

basicly, just because the matches are 5on5 doesnt mean you should balance around 5on5 fights that never happen.

Lol’s roles took a long time to become as defined as they are, and even then every tournament showed the world a new meta to follow. Gw2 is no where near that far progressed. Also, try talking to some of the higherups in spvp, they can list off quite a few important roles that should be addressed when creating a team comp.

Lol didnt take a long time, it took the first world tournament for everyone to realize whe euro meta was superior, and while it deviates from time to time, its still the dominant meta.

But that has nothing to do with the MEAT of what i was saying.
The point is regardless of roles that “pros” say there is that you are unable to repeat here.

You cant balance a game around 5v5 team fights, when they never happen.
This game has one phase and it involves trying to hold 3 points. You cant hold 3 points if all 5 are in one place…if even 4 are in one place that means atleast 1 other place is open and another is not well defended. So team fights above 3 from each team are not common.

So balance SHOULD be built around smaller team fights or even 1on1 scenerios because the game mode encourages smaller battles.

Scoobaniec.9561:

As a warrior i have to say:

If they continue to “balance” game around 5v5 have fun. Thees a reason why we see many mesmers, d/d eles and so on. Its all cause they are extremely strong in 1v1.

Those ppl don’t post here, they don’t care about it either, they jus want to be strong in 1v1 and rely on themself like i do, but i can’t cause my class sux donkey balls. By that i have abandomed GW2 pvp, and if i want play pvp i goes to Crysis 3.

A game should be based on invidual skill, the current meta don’t promotes that, instead punishing for it – if u want to be good at 1v1 roll op class.

Its not fun for me, not fun for others, and u guys wonder why pvp is dead.

Like i said if they continue balancing this game around 5v5 have fun..with urself

And keep in mind that 1v1 balance is superior to 5v5.

Teamwork? U will keep that easily with balance around 1v1, and maybe we will also see something diff than 2x d/d ele, mesmer and something else.

The problem is, Anet know this BUT it doesn´t matter. Ele damage must be toned down, heal must toned down, defense must toned down, mobility must toned down. If not → WARRIOR need a complete redesign.

Miko.5726:

Scoobaniec.9561:

As a warrior i have to say:

If they continue to “balance” game around 5v5 have fun. Thees a reason why we see many mesmers, d/d eles and so on. Its all cause they are extremely strong in 1v1.

Those ppl don’t post here, they don’t care about it either, they jus want to be strong in 1v1 and rely on themself like i do, but i can’t cause my class sux donkey balls. By that i have abandomed GW2 pvp, and if i want play pvp i goes to Crysis 3.

A game should be based on invidual skill, the current meta don’t promotes that, instead punishing for it – if u want to be good at 1v1 roll op class.

Its not fun for me, not fun for others, and u guys wonder why pvp is dead.

Like i said if they continue balancing this game around 5v5 have fun..with urself

And keep in mind that 1v1 balance is superior to 5v5.

Teamwork? U will keep that easily with balance around 1v1, and maybe we will also see something diff than 2x d/d ele, mesmer and something else.

The problem is, Anet know this BUT it doesn´t matter. Ele damage must be toned down, heal must toned down, defense must toned down, mobility must toned down. If not -> WARRIOR need a complete redesign.

I think many eles would be fine with that as long as you brought our hp pools inline with warrior, burst inline with warrior, auto attack for dagger inline with axe, mobility inline with warrior (who can be more mobile) and ranged single target dps ie scepter in all attunements inline with rifle as well as the range.

Trying to balance this game around 1v1 is a foolish undertaking. We need more game types and better maps.

bhagwad.4281:

Shukran.4851:

balance me some guardian bunker with burst thief.
then the same 2 classes after the balance with a romaing ele, then with a mesmer and ranger….explain me how to do that kind of 1v1 balance

Why do you think it’s difficult? Or even impossible? All we’re saying is that it should be a fair and entertaining 1v1 fight with equal chances for either side to win. That’s not a hard concept to grasp.

It shouldn’t be a faceroll one way or the other.

Its not difficult. its impossible. No game, with any meaningful class variety has EVER in the history of gaming succesfully balanced for 1vs1.

Thats why you do 5vs5 balance because its achievable. 1vs1 balance is a pipe dream.

Aslo, its not always relevant. someone who specs for support might be bad at 1on1, but dominant in team fights. Why cant players make trade offs like that.

But mostly its about the fact that the OP is asking the devs to do something that has NEVER been done EVER by anyone , in any game, in the history of gaming. Balance diverse classes and roles all for 1on1.

Everyone is completely off base…

You must balance a game from a 1v1 perspective

AND

You must balance a game from a team perspective.

Look at LoL: Champions are balanced by 1v1 in their perspective ROLES. They are also balanced in a teamfight. These are two different spectrums that influence each other but do not negate each other.

You cannot balance for 1 and ignore the other, you must balance for both.

You cannot compare GW2 to LoL, as LoL has specific roles for each of their heroes.
Gw2 is build with the philosophy that there should be no trinity.
This means that every class should be able to rely on itself, and no classes should be better at 1v1’s. With the current meta there are classes that are too powerful in 1v1’s, and others that are too weak. Balancing the 1v1 issue, will in the longer run balance the teamplay.

Honestly I do not see how 1v1 balance would make the game more static. To me it would become much more dynamic. The way it is now, you’ll just have a bunker ele/guard/engi standing on one point for an entire match. It’s almost impossible to take down a bunker alone, and if you try, you will waste your time.

Having the game balanced around 1v1’s would require more movement and team coordination, as points would be much more vulnerable in general.
The most interesting gameplays are often the ones where each individual are equally matched, leaving only skill as the variable.
That is what made CS 1.6 such a huge e-sport. Each player were equal which meant that the only variables were individual skill and team skill/coordination and strategies. People could still be good at spraying while others were good at strategies or using the AWM (simply put). The point is that the gameplay did not become static or pale, as each team could use different strategies that were all viable. This was the case because of the 1v1 balance that CS naturally had.

The gameplay in CS did not provide any roles, but the teams filled them out based on what the individual players were good at, and that is where gw2 needs to go.
Right now players cannot choose the “role” they are best at, because the gameplay requires specific builds to be competitive.

I hope this is not too difficult to understand!
I believe this discussion lives because people disagree about the direction pvp should take, and not whether the game should be balanced around 1v1 or team synergy (both things can work, but do so in very different ways). In my opinion the best direction for gw2 would be 1v1 balancing, since i feel the gameplay/combat mechanics would benefit from that the most. But if you look at gw2 with a LoL perspective, you might want gw2 to head in another direction.

All that said, i believe gw2 needs another gameplay-mode for it to be competitive. We dont need 20 different game-modes, and imo we dont need death-match (even though it would be kinda fun). We need a game-mode which primary objective is not revolving around holding points OR grabbing flags, because specific builds will naturally be better at such tasks.
We need a very neutral objective, that for instance could be “Red Team needs to defend a Lord, Blue team has to kill it.” And of course the teams would have to switch sides.
This is very basic and would work with a lot of secondary objectives, that could make the game even more interesting. An example of such could be objectives that did not grant points over time, but gave some kind of buff that the teams could go for if needed.

TLDR; Gw2 should be balanced around 1v1’s, as the mechanics would benefit from that the most. And we need a new game-mode that does not require specific builds. (“Neutral” primary objective).

I actually think one does not exclude the other. There is one important thing that has been missed in all balancing done to this game. No 1 v 1 should last forever (bunker ranger vs bunker ele is just one example).

I am not saying there should be counters but a bunker SHOULD be killable on 1 v 1 (obviously whatever the opposing player is playing should be killable by the bunker too and it should come down to skill). We shouldn’t have this “oh well you can kill a guardian or bunker ele with 2 people so it’s balanced” mentality…

I hate thieves, but I have to say they are only class second to warrior that actually feels balanced right now.

League of legends is NOT balanced for 1vs1.

Some heros are much stronger early game, others much stronger late game. Some will wipe the floor with others 1vs1 consistantly.

Swim.6830:

I actually think one does not exclude the other. There is one important thing that has been missed in all balancing done to this game. No 1 v 1 should last forever (bunker ranger vs bunker ele is just one example).

I am not saying there should be counters but a bunker SHOULD be killable on 1 v 1 (obviously whatever the opposing player is playing should be killable by the bunker too and it should come down to skill). We shouldn’t have this “oh well you can kill a guardian or bunker ele with 2 people so it’s balanced” mentality…

I hate thieves, but I have to say they are only class second to warrior that actually feels balanced right now.

no, sorry, if someone who sacrifices ALL his damage potential can still be killed 1vs1, then what’s the point in speccing for defence? let’s all play glass cannons and go around like it was UT in insta-gib mode.
And btw, if someone fails to kill someone 2vs1 or 3vs1, they just suck.

It would really be a shame if they took into consideration threads like this.

Balance should never be based on 1 v 1 and here are the reasons why:
1) GW2 class mechanic is too wide for EVERY build to equally viable. It is simply impossible due to too many variables.
2) GW2 includes WvW and PvE which are both taken into account when balancing classes. Changes always have to make sense in all of those categories thus balancing around 1 v 1 would be extremely difficult.
3) GW2 has no duels. There is no arena. Dedicating class balance on something that doesn’t even exist makes no sense.
4) Maps are designed to have teamfights. This is most clearly reflected in Legacy of Foefire.
5) Even if to make such balance, there will be many imperfections (take WoW where you can clearly see rock, paper & scissors). However, this game is not even designed nowhere close for 1 v 1. All classes have potential to be every role in game (bunker, support, hybrid and glass cannon), yet different classes shine in different roles. A glass cannon build which focus is to kill a target quickly in tournament games should never beat a build which is focused on preventing that burst.

So long.

P.S. Warriors only need VERY slight adjustments. They are already very strong having huge base stats, auto-attack damage, mobility and even most traits are fine. Stahp crying because there will come a moment when warriors will be overbuffed due to this never ending whine and then everyone will get one-shot all day.

1vs1 balance would matter if there was no synergy between classes..since synergy can make a group stronger than the sum of their individual power i dont really get what the op saying .. ?
Like when a warrior and an ele fight together the warrior gets resistance to conditions and the ele makes up for the loss of dps for getting access to the cond removals.Thats definately much more than just adding an easily snared warrior and a low dps ele and have them keep their low points

I have a feeling people often post without actually reading anything but the OP.
Seems legit.

TheGuy.3568:

Miko.5726:

Scoobaniec.9561:

As a warrior i have to say:

If they continue to “balance” game around 5v5 have fun. Thees a reason why we see many mesmers, d/d eles and so on. Its all cause they are extremely strong in 1v1.

Those ppl don’t post here, they don’t care about it either, they jus want to be strong in 1v1 and rely on themself like i do, but i can’t cause my class sux donkey balls. By that i have abandomed GW2 pvp, and if i want play pvp i goes to Crysis 3.

A game should be based on invidual skill, the current meta don’t promotes that, instead punishing for it – if u want to be good at 1v1 roll op class.

Its not fun for me, not fun for others, and u guys wonder why pvp is dead.

Like i said if they continue balancing this game around 5v5 have fun..with urself

And keep in mind that 1v1 balance is superior to 5v5.

Teamwork? U will keep that easily with balance around 1v1, and maybe we will also see something diff than 2x d/d ele, mesmer and something else.

The problem is, Anet know this BUT it doesn´t matter. Ele damage must be toned down, heal must toned down, defense must toned down, mobility must toned down. If not -> WARRIOR need a complete redesign.

I think many eles would be fine with that as long as you brought our hp pools inline with warrior, burst inline with warrior, auto attack for dagger inline with axe, mobility inline with warrior (who can be more mobile) and ranged single target dps ie scepter in all attunements inline with rifle as well as the range.

Trying to balance this game around 1v1 is a foolish undertaking. We need more game types and better maps.

Damage is not the problem, the real problem is, Wars have no chance to survive. They lacks in healability and condition removing. Also, the mobility isn´t as good as Ele/Thief + they have no magic or other tricks.

Sorry, Ele must be toned down, otherwise warrior is only a clown in GW2.

Shar.3402:

Swim.6830:

I actually think one does not exclude the other. There is one important thing that has been missed in all balancing done to this game. No 1 v 1 should last forever (bunker ranger vs bunker ele is just one example).

I am not saying there should be counters but a bunker SHOULD be killable on 1 v 1 (obviously whatever the opposing player is playing should be killable by the bunker too and it should come down to skill). We shouldn’t have this “oh well you can kill a guardian or bunker ele with 2 people so it’s balanced” mentality…

I hate thieves, but I have to say they are only class second to warrior that actually feels balanced right now.

no, sorry, if someone who sacrifices ALL his damage potential can still be killed 1vs1, then what’s the point in speccing for defence? let’s all play glass cannons and go around like it was UT in insta-gib mode.
And btw, if someone fails to kill someone 2vs1 or 3vs1, they just suck.

So basically you want to have infinite battles… something that hasn’t been done in any MMO… genius…

The point of speccing defence is playstyle, i.e. outlasting your opponents burst and killing them in a different way (i.e. conditions, control, retaliation). The point of speccing offence is attacking at the proper moment. It should all be preferred playstyle and not kitten guardian tanking 2 people forever because they didn’t go full glass as well…

I think the issue is amount of healing in MOST if not ALL classes can do.

If you are saying that mesmer is the best 1v1 class, then it’s a L2 kitten ue. They are hardly the best 1v1 class, and really only excel in a team setting with time warp and good portal usage.

In any MMO, 1v1s are NOT balanced. They shouldn’t be. This would create dynamics in a team setting.
I thought the OP was trolling when making this thread and his post, however I was surprised when I saw how many people agreed with him.

Hotjoins are not the end game of GW2 PvP. Tournaments and 5v5s are.
Hotjoins are only there to help you learn your class, and learn rotations, etc.
The fact that you haven’t discovered how bad mesmers are in 1v1s shows just how much you don’t know about PvP.

Another example: Necromancers are probably the worst 1v1 class. In a team setting, though, they are sometimes invaluable.

balancing for 1v1 is entirely possible, with asymetrical classes – at the most basic level it can be demonstrated in the case of one character with v.high health, low armour vs onewith high armour, low health who if dps-ing each other would die on the same final attack. It just gets exponentially more difficult the more proffesions and combat mechanics (variables) are added.

Davinci.8027:

If you are saying that mesmer is the best 1v1 class, then it’s a L2 kitten ue. They are hardly the best 1v1 class, and really only excel in a team setting with time warp and good portal usage.

In any MMO, 1v1s are NOT balanced. They shouldn’t be. This would create dynamics in a team setting.
I thought the OP was trolling when making this thread and his post, however I was surprised when I saw how many people agreed with him.

Hotjoins are not the end game of GW2 PvP. Tournaments and 5v5s are.
Hotjoins are only there to help you learn your class, and learn rotations, etc.
The fact that you haven’t discovered how bad mesmers are in 1v1s shows just how much you don’t know about PvP.

Another example: Necromancers are probably the worst 1v1 class. In a team setting, though, they are sometimes invaluable.

just curious what class you play? as a ranger i can 1v1 any other class, but v.good mesmer players seem to have a huge advantage over me – i know all their attacks etc, but you can only dodge so many times/have so many stunbreaks etc lol

Wanderer.5471:

Davinci.8027:

If you are saying that mesmer is the best 1v1 class, then it’s a L2 kitten ue. They are hardly the best 1v1 class, and really only excel in a team setting with time warp and good portal usage.

In any MMO, 1v1s are NOT balanced. They shouldn’t be. This would create dynamics in a team setting.
I thought the OP was trolling when making this thread and his post, however I was surprised when I saw how many people agreed with him.

Hotjoins are not the end game of GW2 PvP. Tournaments and 5v5s are.
Hotjoins are only there to help you learn your class, and learn rotations, etc.
The fact that you haven’t discovered how bad mesmers are in 1v1s shows just how much you don’t know about PvP.

Another example: Necromancers are probably the worst 1v1 class. In a team setting, though, they are sometimes invaluable.

just curious what class you play? as a ranger i can 1v1 any other class, but v.good mesmer players seem to have a huge advantage over me – i know all their attacks etc, but you can only dodge so many times/have so many stunbreaks etc lol

A ranger generally should beat a mesmer 1on1. Are you playing a trap ranger?

Example:

A mesmer might be great at 1v1.
Their damage in a team-fight isn’t anything to scream and shout about.
However, Time Warp is the sole reason you want a mesmer. Nobody cares that it can hold on in a 1v1. By that logic, you should just roll 5 Rangers and you’d have the best team in the world. They can 1v1 the living crap out of everyone, so a team of 5 must be amazing right? Right?… Right?

Oh.

vangedas.7358:

It would really be a shame if they took into consideration threads like this.

Balance should never be based on 1 v 1 and here are the reasons why:
1) GW2 class mechanic is too wide for EVERY build to equally viable. It is simply impossible due to too many variables.

This is why they did away with a lot of varibles, you dont have as many ways to alter your character in spvp as you do in other game modes. Also, this is a problem and its a design flaw. There are obvious paths to different play styles built into the system, the problem is making sure THOSE work, some do not.

vangedas.7358:

2) GW2 includes WvW and PvE which are both taken into account when balancing classes. Changes always have to make sense in all of those categories thus balancing around 1 v 1 would be extremely difficult.

Actually, once again. SPVP balance is held to more strict rules and most changes to balance do favor spvp. Why? because wvw and pve are not balanced. WVW is zergwarfare that allows people of ANY levels (yes your still weaker if your level 1 even if it says your 80) and people with different obtainable gears. It is not a game mode designed around individual balanced fights. And PVE falls into a similiar catagory, also because there are no roles in pve (just tools you’d like to have) balancing is a lot softer. Also your not fighting each other in pve.

SPV kitten mall group competition where balance is everything.

vangedas.7358:

3) GW2 has no duels. There is no arena. Dedicating class balance on something that doesn’t even exist makes no sense.

1on1 fights happen all the time in spvp especially tournament mode which is really what balance is/needs to be shaped around. (they say they intend to make it an E-sport, cant do that if this mode isnt balanced)

vangedas.7358:

4) Maps are designed to have teamfights. This is most clearly reflected in Legacy of Foefire.

Theyre are designed to have teamfights, but you dont have big team fights all the time. you have 5on5 there are 3 nodes. Most team fights will never go beyond 3v3, most will be 1on1’s and 2on2’s (or some uneven number 2on3/1on2 etc) And foefire is the only map that sort of encourages this due to how big and positioned the middle cap point is, but the objective is ignorable and so you still will not often have more than 3-4 people from your team in any fight.

vangedas.7358:

5) Even if to make such balance, there will be many imperfections (take WoW where you can clearly see rock, paper & scissors). However, this game is not even designed nowhere close for 1 v 1. All classes have potential to be every role in game (bunker, support, hybrid and glass cannon), yet different classes shine in different roles. A glass cannon build which focus is to kill a target quickly in tournament games should never beat a build which is focused on preventing that burst.

And here you just contradict your entire point. By saying you shouldnt balance around 1on1, then turning around and saying (a glass cannon should never beat a bunker). Your suggesting that the game be balanced around a 1on1 scenerio. If 1on1 is not important to balance…it would not matter if the glass can beat the bunker, because the game is not about 1on1s. But since it is, as you just pointed out. This would be something to consider.

daydream.2938:

Wanderer.5471:

Davinci.8027:

If you are saying that mesmer is the best 1v1 class, then it’s a L2 kitten ue. They are hardly the best 1v1 class, and really only excel in a team setting with time warp and good portal usage.

In any MMO, 1v1s are NOT balanced. They shouldn’t be. This would create dynamics in a team setting.
I thought the OP was trolling when making this thread and his post, however I was surprised when I saw how many people agreed with him.

Hotjoins are not the end game of GW2 PvP. Tournaments and 5v5s are.
Hotjoins are only there to help you learn your class, and learn rotations, etc.
The fact that you haven’t discovered how bad mesmers are in 1v1s shows just how much you don’t know about PvP.

Another example: Necromancers are probably the worst 1v1 class. In a team setting, though, they are sometimes invaluable.

just curious what class you play? as a ranger i can 1v1 any other class, but v.good mesmer players seem to have a huge advantage over me – i know all their attacks etc, but you can only dodge so many times/have so many stunbreaks etc lol

A ranger generally should beat a mesmer 1on1. Are you playing a trap ranger?

no, that’s the thing, i have heard trap rangers are good against them because of all the AOEs vs stealth, clones and phantasms etc but i just don’t like the playstyle.

Zinwrath.2049:

vangedas.7358:

It would really be a shame if they took into consideration threads like this.

Balance should never be based on 1 v 1 and here are the reasons why:
1) GW2 class mechanic is too wide for EVERY build to equally viable. It is simply impossible due to too many variables.

This is why they did away with a lot of varibles, you dont have as many ways to alter your character in spvp as you do in other game modes. Also, this is a problem and its a design flaw. There are obvious paths to different play styles built into the system, the problem is making sure THOSE work, some do not.

vangedas.7358:

2) GW2 includes WvW and PvE which are both taken into account when balancing classes. Changes always have to make sense in all of those categories thus balancing around 1 v 1 would be extremely difficult.

Actually, once again. SPVP balance is held to more strict rules and most changes to balance do favor spvp. Why? because wvw and pve are not balanced. WVW is zergwarfare that allows people of ANY levels (yes your still weaker if your level 1 even if it says your 80) and people with different obtainable gears. It is not a game mode designed around individual balanced fights. And PVE falls into a similiar catagory, also because there are no roles in pve (just tools you’d like to have) balancing is a lot softer. Also your not fighting each other in pve.

SPV kitten mall group competition where balance is everything.

vangedas.7358:

3) GW2 has no duels. There is no arena. Dedicating class balance on something that doesn’t even exist makes no sense.

1on1 fights happen all the time in spvp especially tournament mode which is really what balance is/needs to be shaped around. (they say they intend to make it an E-sport, cant do that if this mode isnt balanced)

vangedas.7358:

4) Maps are designed to have teamfights. This is most clearly reflected in Legacy of Foefire.

Theyre are designed to have teamfights, but you dont have big team fights all the time. you have 5on5 there are 3 nodes. Most team fights will never go beyond 3v3, most will be 1on1’s and 2on2’s (or some uneven number 2on3/1on2 etc) And foefire is the only map that sort of encourages this due to how big and positioned the middle cap point is, but the objective is ignorable and so you still will not often have more than 3-4 people from your team in any fight.

vangedas.7358:

5) Even if to make such balance, there will be many imperfections (take WoW where you can clearly see rock, paper & scissors). However, this game is not even designed nowhere close for 1 v 1. All classes have potential to be every role in game (bunker, support, hybrid and glass cannon), yet different classes shine in different roles. A glass cannon build which focus is to kill a target quickly in tournament games should never beat a build which is focused on preventing that burst.

And here you just contradict your entire point. By saying you shouldnt balance around 1on1, then turning around and saying (a glass cannon should never beat a bunker). Your suggesting that the game be balanced around a 1on1 scenerio. If 1on1 is not important to balance…it would not matter if the glass can beat the bunker, because the game is not about 1on1s. But since it is, as you just pointed out. This would be something to consider.

Whaaaat are you even talking about here. Just saying what you feel like.

Go watch some state of the game videos from previous months. They have said multiple times that balance changes are very cautious and in matter of both PvE and WvW. It doesn’t matter what those game modes are, the fact is simple.

1 v 1 happens all the time? You have clearly not played in a competitive team vs another competitive team. 1 v 1 is extremely rare in high level PvP. If you assault a point you’re most likely going to get 1 v 2’d by a roamer. Also your argument is invalid. Just because 1 v 1 happens ‘’a lot’’ it doesn’t mean the game should be balanced around it. Teamfights happen more often and a successful teamfight at the start of the game will usually decide the game winner.

Your map comment is somewhat raising me questions whether you play this game at all. Watch some streams and come here again.

Your conclusion is also mind-boggling. How do you make up random facts from what I was saying? I never said the game is about 1 v 1s and it never was. 1 v 1 is impossible to balance due to the mechanics of the game. Your ignorance is really annoying.

There is too much else to balance to only be thinking about 5v5’s and 1v1’s.

Razor, mesmers are Op? tell that to a engineer and a ranger. Any class can topple a mesmer. I also play a mesmer, and we get Nerfed the majority of patches, theif and war?

vangedas.7358

Whaaaat are you even talking about here. Just saying what you feel like.

Go watch some state of the game videos from previous months. They have said multiple times that balance changes are very cautious and in matter of both PvE and WvW. It doesn’t matter what those game modes are, the fact is simple.

1 v 1 happens all the time? You have clearly not played in a competitive team vs another competitive team. 1 v 1 is extremely rare in high level PvP. If you assault a point you’re most likely going to get 1 v 2’d by a roamer. Also your argument is invalid. Just because 1 v 1 happens ‘’a lot’’ it doesn’t mean the game should be balanced around it. Teamfights happen more often and a successful teamfight at the start of the game will usually decide the game winner.

Your map comment is somewhat raising me questions whether you play this game at all. Watch some streams and come here again.

Your conclusion is also mind-boggling. How do you make up random facts from what I was saying? I never said the game is about 1 v 1s and it never was. 1 v 1 is impossible to balance due to the mechanics of the game. Your ignorance is really annoying.

You did say you shouldnt balance by 1 vs 1. But then you contradicted yourself.
You said a scenerio “1 player (GlassC) should never beat 1 player (bunker).” That is balancing 1 player vs another player. Thus it is balancing a 1 on 1 scenerio. No need to get all angry cause i pointed it out, it was your words. If you’d like to change them, by all means.

Also, you cant make every 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5 balanced.( and 5v5 rarely happens despite what you claim and if in theory the game started with a 5v5 battle that decided the game, we should just be playing arenas)

And yes you want to balance for scenerios that are going to happen. You wouldnt balance the game around 6v6 or 10v10 if that cant even happen, your not gonna balance around how well each profession can do something that is not relevant to trying to hold 3 nodes.

And yes they have publicy said they try to balance across all 3 platforms. My point did not say they said otherwise, my point was they have already taken measure to balance SPVP seperatly by restricting what you can buy and do (less rune/sigils no racial abilities, etc) and that balancing is more strict to its play style because who is stronger than the next is more pronounced than it is in 50 to 100+ man zerg mode where low levels can join and you can have better gear than the guy next to you, and PVE where balance is subjective to the content your trying to complete and does not involve you fighting other players but npcs.

Zinwrath.2049:

vangedas.7358

Whaaaat are you even talking about here. Just saying what you feel like.

Go watch some state of the game videos from previous months. They have said multiple times that balance changes are very cautious and in matter of both PvE and WvW. It doesn’t matter what those game modes are, the fact is simple.

1 v 1 happens all the time? You have clearly not played in a competitive team vs another competitive team. 1 v 1 is extremely rare in high level PvP. If you assault a point you’re most likely going to get 1 v 2’d by a roamer. Also your argument is invalid. Just because 1 v 1 happens ‘’a lot’’ it doesn’t mean the game should be balanced around it. Teamfights happen more often and a successful teamfight at the start of the game will usually decide the game winner.

Your map comment is somewhat raising me questions whether you play this game at all. Watch some streams and come here again.

Your conclusion is also mind-boggling. How do you make up random facts from what I was saying? I never said the game is about 1 v 1s and it never was. 1 v 1 is impossible to balance due to the mechanics of the game. Your ignorance is really annoying.

You did say you shouldnt balance by 1 vs 1. But then you contradicted yourself.
You said a scenerio “1 player (GlassC) should never beat 1 player (bunker).” That is balancing 1 player vs another player. Thus it is balancing a 1 on 1 scenerio. No need to get all angry cause i pointed it out, it was your words. If you’d like to change them, by all means.

Also, you cant make every 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5 balanced.( and 5v5 rarely happens despite what you claim and if in theory the game started with a 5v5 battle that decided the game, we should just be playing arenas)

And yes you want to balance for scenerios that are going to happen. You wouldnt balance the game around 6v6 or 10v10 if that cant even happen, your not gonna balance around how well each profession can do something that is not relevant to trying to hold 3 nodes.

And yes they have publicy said they try to balance across all 3 platforms. My point did not say they said otherwise, my point was they have already taken measure to balance SPVP seperatly by restricting what you can buy and do (less rune/sigils no racial abilities, etc) and that balancing is more strict to its play style because who is stronger than the next is more pronounced than it is in 50 to 100+ man zerg mode where low levels can join and you can have better gear than the guy next to you, and PVE where balance is subjective to the content your trying to complete and does not involve you fighting other players but npcs.

You misunderstood my last point. By saying ‘should never beat’ I simply mean that class mechanics allow one build to be superior to another. If a warrior easily dies to retaliation and stability it is not (un)intended balance, but a counter mechanic. Whereas a condition warrior would have an easier time. Balance is nearly impossible on current circumstances where separate builds on the same class work differently against the same build.

True 1v1 balance will never happen. The idea of perfect imbalance is how you have a fluctuating meta and an actually alive interesting game over long periods of time. (Now to wait for a-net to actually do it’s job on this matter.)

Balance in this game is pretty good actually for an inital release (cuz most of the updates so far really don’t count lolololol)

Think of it simular to TF2 if you put a Demo and a Heavy on a bridge with no cover, the Demo CAN win but that’s gonna be a hard fight. And that is also an arguably fairly balanced game however (as far as I know) has very little in terms of a changing meta.
(And to sme considered casual crack)

Unlike a game like LoL where you can cry “IMBA” all day but you know people are soon going to counter what’s currently “imbalanced” to what people typically run.

The real current problem is how little variety we have with our builds, and developing counters to individualized builds in a territory game where you cannot switch skills is kind a push to wards an even more stagnant game.

Not to say balance doesn’t need to happen but I don’t think striving for true 1v1 is balanced at all. (However at this current moment I feel same class vs same class is the biggest Bit-.. Erm “Kitten” fight in the game since everyone is the same. Like 2 hobos after a sandwich)

Daishi.6027:

True 1v1 balance will never happen. The idea of perfect imbalance is how you have a fluctuating meta and an actually alive interesting game over long periods of time. (Now to wait for a-net to actually do it’s job on this matter.)

Balance in this game is pretty good actually for an inital release (cuz most of the updates so far really don’t count lolololol)

Think of it simular to TF2 if you put a Demo and a Heavy on a bridge with no cover, the Demo CAN win but that’s gonna be a hard fight. And that is also an arguably fairly balanced game however (as far as I know) has very little in terms of a changing meta.
(And to sme considered casual crack)

Unlike a game like LoL where you can cry “IMBA” all day but you know people are soon going to counter what’s currently “imbalanced” to what people typically run.

The real current problem is how little variety we have with our builds, and developing counters to individualized builds in a territory game where you cannot switch skills is kind a push to wards an even more stagnant game.

Not to say balance doesn’t need to happen but I don’t think striving for true 1v1 is balanced at all. (However at this current moment I feel same class vs same class is the biggest Bit-.. Erm “Kitten” fight in the game since everyone is the same. Like 2 hobos after a sandwich)

Its true in TF2 certain 1on1 fights are going to be more difficult for one side or the other. But thats because TF2 has clearly defined roles between each of its classes.

Guild wars 2 has the inherent flaw that the professions were designed all to be self efficient for solo play in a pve world. And all able to do any role that might be covered ikittenman dungeon crawl (where there is no trinity).

Then they took that formula and tried to make it work with SPVP. Its obvious they had spvp in mind when they developed the game as the way everything works from their stat system and resistance system and so on. but you have no definition of roles.

TF2 creators knew where their game was going and designed the professions so they would each be useful in their own way, then designed the maps to further allow each class to be able to take advantage of things no other class could.

Guild wars 2 creaters made the spvp system with NO clear idea what each profession would be best at…would WANT to do…or should do. They didnt design the game with a clear goal on what would be the best way to even play conquest, openly admitting they’re waiting for a meta to form before they will take drastic balance.
Instead of having an idea in mind how the mode should be played (which could have been done by researching other games with similiar game modes) and desigining each profession around that AND around how people would WANT to play those professions. You would not hear many complain about balance.

But instead We have.
8 professions.
Each with 20 utilitys that can be mixed and matched for a ton of combinations ontop of healing options and ultimates.
Multiple weapon options across each profession. (that can be mixed and matched in even more ways, ontop of multiple combinations of weapons to swap between)
37 sigil options
52 Rune options.
150 traits with 70 trait points per profession offering hundreds of different customizations.
aprox 60 major Traits (around 10-12 per trait line) to customize

They give us all this and are sitting back and seeing what we come up with and what works….this is their plan for balance.

And here (if it isnt obvious) is why its a bad idea

1. What works best is not always (or in this case usually) how you want to play Many..(i might even say most) people who pick ranger for spvp are expecting to use LB at a range and snipe people, or dive in with a great sword along their pet. Most did not choose the class wanting to stack conditions with a short bow while laying traps.
(nother example) most engineers wanted to build turret forts, and burn people with a flame thrower and use gadgets, not chug pots and hurl hand grenades. (you could do this for almost all professions)

2. With no clear idea of how your game mode should be played, you CANT have clear roles and thus no idea how each profession SHOULD work or what makes a player choose one over the next. Instead its a convoluted mess.

Basicly, balance is impossible and diversity in builds will never happen in a game that does not have diversity in roles or defined purpose to each profession. The game is overly saturated in options, you will never make them all equal. What people need/want is a few clearly defined play styles for each profession, and they want them to work, be viable, and have a place in the game.

KrisHQ.4719:

You cannot compare GW2 to LoL, as LoL has specific roles for each of their heroes.
Gw2 is build with the philosophy that there should be no trinity.
This means that every class should be able to rely on itself, and no classes should be better at 1v1’s. With the current meta there are classes that are too powerful in 1v1’s, and others that are too weak. Balancing the 1v1 issue, will in the longer run balance the teamplay.

Honestly I do not see how 1v1 balance would make the game more static. To me it would become much more dynamic. The way it is now, you’ll just have a bunker ele/guard/engi standing on one point for an entire match. It’s almost impossible to take down a bunker alone, and if you try, you will waste your time.

Having the game balanced around 1v1’s would require more movement and team coordination, as points would be much more vulnerable in general.
The most interesting gameplays are often the ones where each individual are equally matched, leaving only skill as the variable.
That is what made CS 1.6 such a huge e-sport. Each player were equal which meant that the only variables were individual skill and team skill/coordination and strategies. People could still be good at spraying while others were good at strategies or using the AWM (simply put). The point is that the gameplay did not become static or pale, as each team could use different strategies that were all viable. This was the case because of the 1v1 balance that CS naturally had.

The gameplay in CS did not provide any roles, but the teams filled them out based on what the individual players were good at, and that is where gw2 needs to go.
Right now players cannot choose the “role” they are best at, because the gameplay requires specific builds to be competitive.

I hope this is not too difficult to understand!
I believe this discussion lives because people disagree about the direction pvp should take, and not whether the game should be balanced around 1v1 or team synergy (both things can work, but do so in very different ways). In my opinion the best direction for gw2 would be 1v1 balancing, since i feel the gameplay/combat mechanics would benefit from that the most. But if you look at gw2 with a LoL perspective, you might want gw2 to head in another direction.

All that said, i believe gw2 needs another gameplay-mode for it to be competitive. We dont need 20 different game-modes, and imo we dont need death-match (even though it would be kinda fun). We need a game-mode which primary objective is not revolving around holding points OR grabbing flags, because specific builds will naturally be better at such tasks.
We need a very neutral objective, that for instance could be “Red Team needs to defend a Lord, Blue team has to kill it.” And of course the teams would have to switch sides.
This is very basic and would work with a lot of secondary objectives, that could make the game even more interesting. An example of such could be objectives that did not grant points over time, but gave some kind of buff that the teams could go for if needed.

---

TLDR; Gw2 should be balanced around 1v1’s, as the mechanics would benefit from that the most. And we need a new game-mode that does not require specific builds. (“Neutral” primary objective).

yes i can… cuz the builds and trait types/stat lines do have specific roles.

Tankiness
Pure Damage
Condition Damage
Support (healing / boons)
Mobility

You can sum those up to your roles. Granted the roles fluctuate but players generally fall into one of those roles. Hybrid builds even have a focus. Placing these things on a charted scale of SUPER DMG to SUPER TANKY allows you to find the medium in hybrid/tanky dps builds (as an example) which still allows achievable balance in a role-based area.

Additionally if you balance for 1v1 and 5v5 then typically everything in between falls in line because you really have balanced for any “fair fight” (equal numbers and roles) situation. the 5v5 balancing covers things like AoE, bouncing stuff, and combos while 1v1 focuses on burst damage, individual tankiness, and the general competitiveness of each individual class and build.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

yes i can… cuz the builds and trait types/stat lines do have specific roles.

Tankiness
Pure Damage
Condition Damage
Support (healing / boons)
Mobility

You can sum those up to your roles

Additionally if you balance for 1v1 and 5v5 then typically everything in between falls in line because you really have balanced for any “fair fight” (equal numbers and roles) situation. the 5v5 balancing covers things like AoE, bouncing stuff, and combos while 1v1 focuses on burst damage, individual tankiness, and the general competitiveness of each individual class and build.

Problem is some of the professions traits arent as clearly defined or are not working as one would assume they’re intended.

I like your 5v5 and 1v1 balance theory. My only issue is how do you make each professoin able to clearly do each role do you say “this is the weapon and trait and utilitys for this role….this is the weapon trait utilitys for THIS role” and then when each of the 8 professions can handle each role, make sure they are all able to contribute as well as each other in a team fight and handle each other in each respected role in a 1on1 scenerio?

Zinwrath.2049:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

yes i can… cuz the builds and trait types/stat lines do have specific roles.

Tankiness
Pure Damage
Condition Damage
Support (healing / boons)
Mobility

You can sum those up to your roles

Additionally if you balance for 1v1 and 5v5 then typically everything in between falls in line because you really have balanced for any “fair fight” (equal numbers and roles) situation. the 5v5 balancing covers things like AoE, bouncing stuff, and combos while 1v1 focuses on burst damage, individual tankiness, and the general competitiveness of each individual class and build.

Problem is some of the professions traits arent as clearly defined or are not working as one would assume they’re intended.

I like your 5v5 and 1v1 balance theory. My only issue is how do you make each professoin able to clearly do each role do you say “this is the weapon and trait and utilitys for this role….this is the weapon trait utilitys for THIS role” and then when each of the 8 professions can handle each role, make sure they are all able to contribute as well as each other in a team fight and handle each other in each respected role in a 1on1 scenerio?

For the most part (with the exception of the elementalist) most stuff is already role defined. Necro scepter is condi, OH dagger is condi, GS is mobility/pure damage. All shields are tankiness/support. Utilities fall into this function too. Elixir gun is support, Assassin’s Signet is damage. According to ANET each profession is supposed to be able to handle ALL roles in different ways. No one ever said each weapon can handle all roles, in fact they’re pretty obviously meant to do 1 or 2 things (IE Thief daggers are pure damage but can also be situationally and limitedly used for condi dmg)

Well see this brings up an interesting thought.

Who says condition damage is a role?

As my understanding condition damage is simply a damage type which most champions have. Sure i can build to do a lot of it vs direct damage, but how is that covering a needed role?

The scepter actually has a very reasonable direct damage source across its abilitys rivaling its condition damage. You could call this a hybrid item that does both forms of damage equally. but i dont see how this suggests how you will play the game.

Its not like league of legends where you might want to get an AP champ simply to encourage them to have to waste some of their resources on MR. In conquest i have no idea what each professions abilities/weapons are before the match starts…so i have no idea if i should grab a bunch of condition wipe or not, i wont know till the games started and then its too late.

The big issue I think the issue with balancing around 1v1 is that you into significant barriers.

1)Most classes can build themselves to be self-sufficient and 1v1 capable if they want to, its just that most optimal builds revolve around how they can contribute to the team as a whole rather than taking down players individually. Mesmer is a class that slowly shifted away from its duelist status to team fighter within the frame of the meta, sacrificing its utilities and elite to bring more team fight potential. Thieves have deadly 1v1 capable builds that can win most fights if played well, but these aren’t necessarily congruent with what a team needs which is strong single target burst and high sustained AOE dmg in teamfights. 1v1 balance can possible be done with a lot of tweaking(many months worth of balance), but is it optimal or necessary? I don’t think so.

2) You also run the risk of homogenizing your game to an extent that most professions will lose their flavor. If certain aspects of the game had be curbed(condition application, removal, dps, healing, etc.)so that any potentiality faced by any class can be countered assuming things equal, it removes a lot of the specialty and class specific knowledge that must applied while during gameplay. It then becomes use “Use ability A when class uses ability C or B when he uses A”, rather than knowing your class/build specific strengths and weaknesses and utilizes that to its fullest. A lot of “hard-countering” can be avoided simply by having a well balanced comp that covers your weaknesses. You lack mobility and can be trained easily? Communicate with your teammates to peel for you and watch your positioning relative to the enemy team. Squishy under burst and sustained damage? Let your heavies define the battle lines while you hover on the skirts looking for an opportunity.

Thus the idea of “team game” is born. Its not only what you bring as an individual but also a team to the fight. Figure out favorable pairs for striking points together in situations and don’t try to be “point hero” soloing an individual point if its not part of your strategy. Chances are, your teammates are dying and need your help somewhere else or a roamer’s blades will soon sate itself with your death.

About 1 on 1 balance. Ideal duel balance is unreachable, and never should be, this is ultimate way to kill class differences. But some degree of balance SHOULD be always.
If you see a guy <da_cool_class_pwn_u>, and his skill at the same level as yours, you will be defeated in most cases, but you must have a chance to win. If you are seriously experienced, you have to win more often than lose.
The situation then you will see a guy with the same skill as you, and you know that you already defeated – it is unacceptable.

If game developers actually cared about 1v1 balance it would be possible to reach reasonable levels. It doesn’t need to be perfect, it just needs to be close enough.

To be honest, all of this balance talk is ridiculous. The balance in GW2 is fine, more the. Fine actually. Sure, warriors could use some minor love, and a few other tweaks are needed but overall, class balance is healthy and its only sub sections of the community crying for some I achievable state of balance nirvana.

You can’t balance player skill. End of story.

Saying 1v1s don’t matter blows my mind. 1v1s happen – and they are an important part of any game, even a team oriented one.

When you have classes that are so obviously better than others at roles you get… what we have now. A boring game. Static meta. Never changing. Just bring that bunker ele/guard always, all the time.

When people play PvP and see which class is best 1v1 guess what happens? Time to roll the FOTM. Hence, PvP filled with thieves and mesmers and D/D Eles all day every day.

It’s no wonder the Mists sit empty. Nobody wants to play a game they know they are going to lose just because the class they chose isn’t up to the task. Maybe if Anet didn’t go around implying we could choose different roles in a single class the detractors would have a point.

I’m a happy little Warrior running around trying to do some PVP’ing. Just trying to have some fun. Oh, look, a Mesmer sitting on a point/killing cows! Time to fight? Nope, time to turn tail and run because I rolled the wrong class. Exciting gameplay, indeed. :\

Zinwrath.2049:

Well see this brings up an interesting thought.

Who says condition damage is a role?

As my understanding condition damage is simply a damage type which most champions have. Sure i can build to do a lot of it vs direct damage, but how is that covering a needed role?

The scepter actually has a very reasonable direct damage source across its abilitys rivaling its condition damage. You could call this a hybrid item that does both forms of damage equally. but i dont see how this suggests how you will play the game.

Its not like league of legends where you might want to get an AP champ simply to encourage them to have to waste some of their resources on MR. In conquest i have no idea what each professions abilities/weapons are before the match starts…so i have no idea if i should grab a bunch of condition wipe or not, i wont know till the games started and then its too late.

Supposedly its supposed to counter high toughness / mobility / tanky builds because once its on its on…except for condi removal, of which there is WAY too much. Also since it’s basically true damage it goes around toughness…which would matter if toughness didnt suck 100% of the time

also think of this. With 3 points when do you ever really encounter 5v5? It’s been pretty kitten rare in my experience. I think it’s a little naive to balance strictly for 5v5 when MOST fights are nowhere near being 5v5.

i say that about 10x in this thread.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

also think of this. With 3 points when do you ever really encounter 5v5? It’s been pretty kitten rare in my experience. I think it’s a little naive to balance strictly for 5v5 when MOST fights are nowhere near being 5v5.

Blizzard has tried and failed magnificently. So yes, in the first step, Anet must balance the game around 1 vs 1 , 2 vs 2 , 3 vs 3 and so on.

I main a warrior, and there is (still) no COUNTER-Build on the market.

Btw. Shortbow/Pistol Thieves are a pest and must be toned down. Thanks!

Miko.5726:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

also think of this. With 3 points when do you ever really encounter 5v5? It’s been pretty kitten rare in my experience. I think it’s a little naive to balance strictly for 5v5 when MOST fights are nowhere near being 5v5.

Blizzard has tried and failed magnificently. So yes, in the first step, Anet must balance the game around 1 vs 1 , 2 vs 2 , 3 vs 3 and so on.

I main a warrior, and there is (still) no COUNTER-Build on the market.

Btw. Shortbow/Pistol Thieves are a pest and must be toned down. Thanks!

Only issue with Pistol is culling.

the only way this game could be balanced 1v1 is to make viable only ONE build for every class. = remove 99% traits, utility and elites.
if you have only bunker guardians and burst d/d thief with definied utilities and traits, you can balance 1v1 lowering burst, survability etc.
but if u plan to low the thief damange and then pretend to build a balanced thief..well you will be useless.

Staahp to try balance a team-game around 1v1 situations. That’s never gonna happen and won’t succeed.

Who said this game was unbalanced as it is?

Now that ive switched to Mesmer, feels balanced to me.

Valkyriez.6578:

Who said this game was unbalanced as it is?

Now that ive switched to Mesmer, feels balanced to me.

Haha, you made my day ! Great

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Staahp to try balance a team-game around 1v1 situations. That’s never gonna happen and won’t succeed.

Maybe, but at the very least we need a “contra-build” for any class. With my Warrior i can’t remember ever feeling this bad. There is no “contra-build” for any build/class release since August 2k12.

If you play bunker you will outclassed by conditions or pure damage.
If you spec glasscannon you die by conditions or range/positioning
If you play a hybrid you will longer live but die by the underpowered mechanic.

Miko.5726:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Staahp to try balance a team-game around 1v1 situations. That’s never gonna happen and won’t succeed.

Maybe, but at the very least we need a “contra-build” for any class. With my Warrior i can’t remember ever feeling this bad. There is no “contra-build” for any build/class release since August 2k12.

If you play bunker you will outclassed by conditions or pure damage.
If you spec glasscannon you die by conditions or range/positioning
If you play a hybrid you will longer live but die by the underpowered mechanic.

Agree with the lack of diversity. Agree with warrior lacks of being competitive compared to other classes.

“ALL” that word there is what’s wrong with this arguement. Some attention needs do be given to 1v1 but in a game where XvY is common, it needs consideration too.

Valkyriez.6578:

Who said this game was unbalanced as it is?

Now that ive switched to Mesmer, feels balanced to me.

+1 QFT!

Or to use the Chess analogy from earlier, you’ve switched from Pawn to Queen…..