Guild Wars 2

About Me: I’ve been playing this game on and off since the official release. I had been looking forward to it for several months before that (I’m not the sort to try and get in to a beta). I really like PvP, but I’m unlikely to ever get really good at it. I’ve played a few FPSs over the years, but WoW battlegrounds really sucked me in, and I had hoped that this game would fix all the complaints I had about that.

Unfortunately, while GW2 is a significant improvement over the bad things in other MMOs, it is really missing some of the good things from those games. I’ve been reading the forums a bit lately, and it seems like most of the upcoming changes don’t address my complaints.

I don’t know if anyone is interested in the opinions of a casual player like myself, but I really hope sPvP improves on the things listed below. However, first I’ll start off with the good things:

- I love that there is so much variety in character play style. Most FPSs just don’t specialize this much.

- I love that I can play on a level playing ground without grinding for gear. If I get beat, I know it’s because I played poorly or went up against the rock to my scissors, not because I didn’t grind for arena points. If I’m playing a warrior, and I want to give a thief or elementalist a try, I can create a new toon and be up and running in about 5 minutes (I won’t play it well right away, but it’s only 5 minutes to start). This is huge!

- I love that there is no wait for joining a game. I switched faction in WoW just to avoid the queue times. This is also huge.

- I love that there is a world outside of the sPvP games, and I love that there is a centralized match making service where all players are can join. I would probably play TF2 a lot more, but I don’t like jumping on some random dude’s server with whatever games and mods he decided to implement. I like that I can go PvE or WvW for a change of pace.

Ok, now for the criticisms:

- The maps need desperately some variety. It’s five different skins on one game. A couple of trebuchets or bosses doesn’t make enough of a difference to me. I’ve played over a hundred matches, and I’m really bored with chasing around three bases. Where is capture the flag? Where is the map with one base or five bases? How about four plus a flag? I would like a quick deathmatch map. (Ignore the rest of this post if you want, but it’s unlikely I’ll start doing sPvP again if this doesn’t change. )

- The pickup games (not tournaments) desperately need a tiered ranking system. Score me however you want, but match me to people who play at my level.

- I would like to be able to join games with a friend on my side. I understand the aversion to premades, but there has to be a way to make this work.

- Would like my random pickup games to rotate players from the pool. If I’m joining some random game, I don’t want to continue playing with those same random people the next game.

- There should be some reward that benefits my toon outside of PvP. It’s really just a number to chase, but it gives me an incentive to win. I’m sure some people are motivated by vanity gear, but I don’t care about that. I think karma points are probably the right choice. Give the lowest tier a single karma point for winning and zero for losing – this is to discourage the botters. As you rise to higher tiers, increase the reward exponentially – bots aren’t smart enough to play against players and can’t rise through the tiers, but it’s motivating to players.

I saw the recent news announcement from Colin Johanson, and while he touched on the match making and rewards part, I didn’t see anything about new game types (something other than three bases). I know that there are people who care about the following things, but I’m not one of them:

- Custom arenas doesn’t do anything for me. On the off chance that I get invited into one, I’m just going to be annoyed that I don’t know the rules.

- I’d probably only check out the spectator thing a few times as a novelty. If I want to learn the subtleties of a given play style, there are many write-ups and videos on the web.

- Tournaments mean nothing to me. I have a hard time getting one other person to play with, and as a casual (bad) player, I’m not going to get on any teams any time soon. It seems like ArenaNet wants tPvP to be the real game, and sPvP is just for practice, but to me – sPvP is the real game.

Anyways, I’m sure some people will agree with me, and I know I’ll get some stupid comments from the PvP elitists. However, I felt the need to vent my frustration at the missing things which keep this from being a really great game.

Well, look at a game like League of Legends (which GW2 borrows rather heavily from).

There’s basically one playstyle. Hell, there’s one map. The variety kick in when you consider tournament PvP, and the different team comps/matchups/skill levels/rivalries you’ll undoubtedly cultivate when playing against the top echelons.

Until then, it’s kind of drudgery, just like any other major sport. The exciting part is the players and the thrill of melting face in combat.

Casuals are okay! Nothing wrong with it. But as a semi hardcore player, I can tell you that you’re missing out on the experience.

SharadSun.3089:

Well, look at a game like League of Legends (which GW2 borrows rather heavily from).

There’s basically one playstyle. Hell, there’s one map. The variety kick in when you consider tournament PvP, and the different team comps/matchups/skill levels/rivalries you’ll undoubtedly cultivate when playing against the top echelons.

Until then, it’s kind of drudgery, just like any other major sport. The exciting part is the players and the thrill of melting face in combat.

Casuals are okay! Nothing wrong with it. But as a semi hardcore player, I can tell you that you’re missing out on the experience.

I appreciate the courteous reply, but I don’t think I’ll be able to play at that level any time soon, and I do think they could make it so that sPvP wasn’t drudgery. I’d be thrilled if they just copied WoWs maps over to this game.

(I have looked at LoL, but it doesn’t feel the same as games like this)

It’d be interesting to see new game modes (and by association, new maps) in GW2. But for now, I’m happy with how it is. The professions themselves need reworking and balancing, but that’s about it.

SharadSun.3089:

The professions themselves need reworking and balancing, but that’s about it.

See, that part I’m fine with. If I think a particular profession is better, I can roll one for sPvP in 5 minutes. ArenaNet did this so right. I do like the idea of balance, but it doesn’t hurt me if it’s not.

I know you weren’t calling out for nerfs, but I’ve seen a lot of that, and I just don’t understand it.

XScott.1940:

SharadSun.3089:

The professions themselves need reworking and balancing, but that’s about it.

See, that part I’m fine with. If I think a particular profession is better, I can roll one for sPvP in 5 minutes. ArenaNet did this so right. I do like the idea of balance, but it doesn’t hurt me if it’s not.

I know you weren’t calling out for nerfs, but I’ve seen a lot of that, and I just don’t understand it.

Oh don’t get me wrong =p some things definitely do need the generous nerfbat. Cough, omnipotent elementalist builds. Other things, like thieves, need a total rework because they just aren’t fun to play.

I stated in another thread, some things need nerfing because they’re simply too omnicapable. Thieves gank, they just do. And gank tends to win in spvp, so you’ll see thieves dominating hotjoin maps. But classes that can destroy face when they’ve got two equally-skilled opponents on them, in broad daylight? That’s silly.

Sucky Sucky = SPvP. We need things that stop leeching, stop ragequitting, stop high ranks to join in with low ranks, stop zerging, stop gloryfarming and the list is pretty much endless… it’s a mess.

I hope they will implement more modes, what i’m hoping for is a mode where u can have the points but that they gives the team buffs instead.If you capture them you get increased power and precision or regeneration and so on, while the prime objective is to take out the other teams base. I don’t like conquest because everything is a rush to get the points which for me feels like taking down a boss but u have only 5 minutes to do it. I have never liked modes which are time based so i would really like to see a mode with multiple objectives and a end objective that u have to take out.

Everything told here. I think it needs another year to solve these problems with the diversity of play-modes. As in guildwars 1 they needed their time, give them the time here. And as every other player from new to hardcore has other expectations, means spvp to tournaments, it seems like a neverending list.
From my point of view what’s really necessary is matchmaking (coming soon) and a tournament for guilds only, with a ladder, where also matchmaking would be. Pretty much the same as in guildwars 1.

What I have problems with at the moment is the gap between free and paid tournaments. Means average players can’t win paids and will go out of tickets, land sooner or later in free tournaments where the not experienced players are. And to loose against a premade is not really boosting fun in tpvp.

XScott.1940:

- Custom arenas doesn’t do anything for me. On the off chance that I get invited into one, I’m just going to be annoyed that I don’t know the rules.

- I’d probably only check out the spectator thing a few times as a novelty. If I want to learn the subtleties of a given play style, there are many write-ups and videos on the web.

- Tournaments mean nothing to me. I have a hard time getting one other person to play with, and as a casual (bad) player, I’m not going to get on any teams any time soon. It seems like ArenaNet wants tPvP to be the real game, and sPvP is just for practice, but to me – sPvP is the real game.

Anyways, I’m sure some people will agree with me, and I know I’ll get some stupid comments from the PvP elitists. However, I felt the need to vent my frustration at the missing things which keep this from being a really great game.

Hit the nail on the head. The “vocal” section of the forums is mostly hardcore players who are asking for features that might be kind of cool for some people. The average player doesn’t care about watching two pro teams play. They don’t rent custom arenas to “practice” (why would you practice a video game?)

The irony is that the forums are full of people saying “Anet doesn’t listen…” when the reality is that they are probably listening too closely. I wish that it was random vs random coming out this patch instead of 1-match paids. I mean, I know there are over 300 players doing paids, but…shouldn’t we be trying to attract new/casual PvPers?

On tournaments—you may find yourself mistaken. Try submitting your roster solo and see who you get on your team. Tournaments are actually just as casual-friendly as hotjoins, without some of the really frustrating stuff. A lot of casual players have been leaving so it’s a little more likely to get placed against a really good team in voip than it used to be. However, the risk is worth it for me.

Saying the average player doesn’t care about watching two pro teams play isn’t necessarily true. When eSports is successful a large portion of the casual playerbase tends to be interested in these games.

Ayestes.1273:

Saying the average player doesn’t care about watching two pro teams play isn’t necessarily true. When eSports is successful a large portion of the casual playerbase tends to be interested in these games.

I think casual players are more interested in watching short clips of a player doing something ‘cool’ or interesting.

But less interested in watching full matches of multiple teams.

Casual players are what’s going to drive this game towards success, lack of variety or interesting mechanics keeps them away.

Personally, I believe the custom arenas are a waste of time. That should be a bonus, something down the road to reward the community for growing and maintaining a strong status in the gaming world.

Match making, different game types, and class revamps should have taken place first and foremost in order to garner variety, interesting (and balanced) mechanics, and fairness (ranking system).

Also, I think Arena Net and the community need to just cut the ‘E-Sports’ crap. First make the game and the PvP successful through intrigue, replayability and it being enjoyable for the masses. Then once that’s all done and dandy move towards eSports as a branch of an already successful PvP scheme.

I pretty much agree with everything you just said there. The PvP itself has to be there before eSports gets a look.

Defektive.7283:

Also, I think Arena Net and the community need to just cut the ‘E-Sports’ crap. First make the game and the PvP successful first through intrigue, replayability and it being enjoyable for the masses. Then once that’s all done and dandy move towards eSports as a branch of an already successful PvP scheme.

^
This completely. Well said Defekt.

Creating teams of 3 or 5 man would be really nice (i mean deathmatch arenas). They could gain an ELO and keep practicing. Actually, there’s nothing to do because playing the same free tournaments (at pvp u don’t even get any gold/gems except winning paids what’s hard when u have to wait whole day) is so boring after 4 months. ANet should give us any reason to play pvp and actuall lack of esport is really disappointing. I’m worried that farming rank isn’t enough goal to keep people playing spvp. And stop comparing LoL and Guild Wars 2 cuz they’re other kind of games.

PS. It’s so funny to see people looking for randoms just to lose paid tournaments while they’re playing it only for tokens instead of playing to be better at. And ANet please, do something with paid tournament tickets – if you want to keep people playing in esport way they shouldn’t spend real money for gems just to play and they shouldn’t be forced to farm gold at pve (even if they’re only pvp players) when they want to play %%ing tournament. Tickets should be removed from the game. sorry for my weak english, i hope u understand q.q

The term is barrier to entry snatch. And its the most destructive problem in the current pvp enviroment.

If you want your pvp to get popular you need to make it as easy as possible for people to participate, not difficult.

Consider dota2 vs LOL. Dota 2 charged for the game at first before going free to play, and LOl was to popular at that point and had market control.

This game builds itself as NO sub fee, and ok i understand they need a way to make money, find another avenue, because making people drop cash/farm for HOURS to play a single paid , is just too much.

XScott.1940:

- I would like to be able to join games with a friend on my side. I understand the aversion to premades, but there has to be a way to make this work.

I agree with you on other points, but this is what has kept away me from casual sPvP. I have two good friends I used to play wow’s BG and arena with and would like to play sPvP now, because I think that guild wars 2 has superior gameplay.

Right now we have the choice between 5p tournaments or casual solo hot join, there is no middle ground, and I think that is a mistake. 8v8 could easily support 2-3 players team without throwing team balance out of the window.

You should never segregate casual players from more competitive ones too much (if you want to make it in eSport), or casuals will loose interest and won’t watch tournaments.
For anyone not convinced, just take a look at Blizzard, and see how ladder anxiety is becoming a threat to Starcraft’s eSport, hence the new training mode in Heart of the Swarm.

Defektive.7283:

Ayestes.1273:

Saying the average player doesn’t care about watching two pro teams play isn’t necessarily true. When eSports is successful a large portion of the casual playerbase tends to be interested in these games.

I think casual players are more interested in watching short clips of a player doing something ‘cool’ or interesting.

But less interested in watching full matches of multiple teams.

Casual players are what’s going to drive this game towards success, lack of variety or interesting mechanics keeps them away.

Personally, I believe the custom arenas are a waste of time. That should be a bonus, something down the road to reward the community for growing and maintaining a strong status in the gaming world.

Match making, different game types, and class revamps should have taken place first and foremost in order to garner variety, interesting (and balanced) mechanics, and fairness (ranking system).

Also, I think Arena Net and the community need to just cut the ‘E-Sports’ crap. First make the game and the PvP successful through intrigue, replayability and it being enjoyable for the masses. Then once that’s all done and dandy move towards eSports as a branch of an already successful PvP scheme.

The dev’s priorities are kitten backwards. This is what I have been saying since I heard about custom arenas a couple of months ago. As a casual, custom arenas do nothing for me. I can see how some people might want them, but at the expense of the basics? (diff game modes, better glory allocation, better rewards, ability to show off pvp gear in pve, dueling in the mists, etc.)

I don’t know what it is, but it’s apparent that the devs and many people here on the forums believe that insituting e-sport type modes will bring players back. But I got news for you, most players are casuals. And casuals don’t care (imo) about e-sports. We just want to get on a couple of hours here and there and have fun. Build the base (casuals) with the fundamentals and then start focusing on e-sport, not the other way around.

Hobz.4680:

XScott.1940:

- I would like to be able to join games with a friend on my side. I understand the aversion to premades, but there has to be a way to make this work.

I agree with you on other points, but this is what has kept away me from casual sPvP. I have two good friends I used to play wow’s BG and arena with and would like to play sPvP now, because I think that guild wars 2 has superior gameplay.

Right now we have the choice between 5p tournaments or casual solo hot join, there is no middle ground, and I think that is a mistake. 8v8 could easily support 2-3 players team without throwing team balance out of the window.

You should never segregate casual players from more competitive ones too much (if you want to make it in eSport), or casuals will loose interest and won’t watch tournaments.
For anyone not convinced, just take a look at Blizzard, and see how ladder anxiety is becoming a threat to Starcraft’s eSport, hence the new training mode in Heart of the Swarm.

Pretty much this, got a friend that i’ve been playing wow with for about 5ish years but we both quit cause of the gear farm.. And when we heard about GW2 we thought it would be the holy grail for us and it is very close to that besides the fact it’s a kitten for us to play together without queing for tournaments and get facerolled by 5man premades.

XScott.1940:

I would probably play TF2 a lot more, but I don’t like jumping on some random dude’s server with whatever games and mods he decided to implement.

there’s places you can go to play organized TF2. TF2lobby.com (haven’t been there in > a year, so idk if there’s something better), or go to atf2.org and play comp games using IRC. Can check out the comp scene at teamfortress.tv.

I want Huttball

SharadSun.3089:

Well, look at a game like League of Legends (which GW2 borrows rather heavily from).

There’s basically one playstyle. Hell, there’s one map. The variety kick in when you consider tournament PvP, and the different team comps/matchups/skill levels/rivalries you’ll undoubtedly cultivate when playing against the top echelons.

Until then, it’s kind of drudgery, just like any other major sport. The exciting part is the players and the thrill of melting face in combat.

Casuals are okay! Nothing wrong with it. But as a semi hardcore player, I can tell you that you’re missing out on the experience.

While it’s true that MOBAs only have one format of play, I have to point out that the variety comes from the different phases of play that kick in after a certain time – laning phase in the beginning, jostling for objectives like dragon or baron in the mid game, and ganking/teamfighting in the end. Gameplay and strategy are dynamic; the match and team priorities when viewed at the 15 minute mark are markedly different from say, the 45 minute mark. What helps this happen is in-game progression through levels and items, effective implementation of fog-of-war (which allows for surprising tactics), and the gradual transformation of the map through destroying turrets and pushing lanes.

The two games are fundamentally different so these ideas may not apply exactly, but Guild Wars does need something to fix the static gametype that is Hold the Point.

I have played over 2000 spvp games, and feel similiar to the OP on some points.

I totally agree that the lack of game modes is a disappointment. It seems to me as well that the devs have got this backwards-first we should have a varierty of interesting game modes, then have a eports focus.

OP you can play with friends in hotjoin. In your friend group tab, left click the friend and select “join in spvp” (if they are already playing), or just join the same server. During the game you can open the spvp team screen and press a “+” button at the top of either the red or blue team to play on the same team. If the teams are full you have to wait until next game or until someone leaves.

I also agree that the items the devs are focusing on do not seem interesting from a gameplay/fun perspective.

I disagree that hotjoin needs to be sorted by rank- if I play a new class I am just as crappo as someone with only a hundred games under their belt. Also I get most of my ideas for better play when playing against more experienced people. It would also separate the player base. To be honest even when I was rank one I didn’t feel I was terribly lacking-its an even playing field after all. Perhaps some of the default builds can be enhanced?

I disagree that you should rotate players between servers. You can always just join a different server if you want to play with different random people. I actually really like playing with a random group and getting to know their style and personality over the course of a night. If I have to log I try and rememebr the server name so I can join again later.

But overall, I hear you OP a brilliant system that seems hamstrung by a focus on one game mode.

It’s still silly how the elitist no-lifers (not all the pro players have this attitude, Teldo and Xee actually seem like fair-minded and mature competitive players, along with a warrior whose name I forgot atm sadly) will trash any comment regarding the game as it relates to the majority of ‘average/casual’ players with the silly idea that you build from the top down. For any solid structure you build a solid foundation FIRST in order to support the top. For the game it’s exactly the same; you build the solid foundation and then you adjust and tweak for the top-end. To do otherwise just means your structure is weak and will crumble.

^Agree. Make the game fair and nice, don’t just let the “pros” do what they want (namely zerg everyone down, without a sense of strategy).

They do know that they have to build ‘esports’ on TOP of the basic game. And make it casual-friendly. Colin said that in one recent interview.

First and foremost, I don’t think players should be divided by rank at all. Mainly due to the fact that ranks are account bound and not character bound. I can be rank 60 and start to play a class I have zero exp playing with. TBH, I think you get better by playing with/against folks who are better than you. I would go out on a limb here to say that as pvpers in general, you want that challenge anyway.

Yeah, totally agree with needing different modes. The maps so far are decent for the only mode, but after 100’s and 100’s of matches, it’s gets boring quick. Anet could even throw in fleshed out versions of modes they’ve had during events.
Reapers Rumble and the Pac-Man game they had during Mad Kings Holiday.
The Snowball fight during Wintersday.

Edit: Reapers Rumble I think has some strong potential, MMO version of a MOBA map. More please.

They need something that’s for sure.
I personally want to see something along the lines of HA/FA/JQ and GvG.

As far as spectator mode goes. It worked in gw1 for HA and GvG. I watched matches from time to time to check out how the meta was actually being played (still do), but if you don’t have those modes, what’s the point. No one wants to watch you hold a point, err maybe I should say “I don’t want to watch anyone hold a point”. There was real strat involved in those game types. Coordinated spikes, flag carriers, split gankers and in GvG if the match was drawn out you had “Victory or Death”, The Guild Lords made their way to the flag stand for final showdown. I don’t think you could solo a Guild Lord in GW1, now I can solo the 5 NPC’s in spvp…perhaps that would change in a GvG setting but who knows.

The casual experience is lacking, in large part because of no match mkaing and barriers to entry in competitive play.

Your either a super casual hot join player, or competitive, its hard to be semi casual which is what grows the community with enough interest in the pvp enviroment to be interested in a competitive e sports generating environment.

daydream.2938:

The casual experience is lacking, in large part because of no match mkaing and barriers to entry in competitive play.

Your either a super casual hot join player, or competitive, its hard to be semi casual which is what grows the community with enough interest in the pvp enviroment to be interested in a competitive e sports generating environment.

True, and there just aren’t a lot of people who are SO extremely casual that they’re all right with hotjoin. I think “semi-casual” is going to become a buzzword in the industry within the next five years.

I’ll agree that coming out of the gate advertising e-sports is a bit… aggressive. Personally, I would have given the game at least 6 months, more like a year, to fully develop before pushing e-sports features. They could be developed during that period, but the focus just seems all wrong.

Not that I think custom arenas are a bad idea, because the idea of becoming a regular in some public arena and potentially building the sense of a consistent community in said arena might actually keep me in sPvP. No one said the only reason to use Custom Arenas is to password protect them and practice for competitive play. Public servers can advertise guilds as well as create said sense of community, so you actually get to know who you’re playing against and their strengths/weaknesses instead of making it a blind grindfest for ranking so some random elitist PuG will accept you into their tournament team.

I don’t know what their resource distribution is like between PvP content, PvP balance, and the rest of the game. However, it seems like it would have been nice if they’d spent more time on class mechanic design to create a better experience instead of seemingly rushing classes out to fit a deadline while they also push on other features. The problem at this point is any new modes will reveal new imbalances, create new whine posts, and in general cause more mayhem. Since they already dedicated to being a balanced e-sport, trying to balance all of these different modes is going to be absolute mayhem.

So really, it all comes back to putting the cart before the horse. Someone internally sold them some kool-aid that they all seemed to drink greedily without considering how most games have come into their e-sports own. I’ll still personally give it time to develop, but that’s probably because I didn’t have the expectation of it bursting into the e-sports scene for a long while anyway.

daydream.2938:

The casual experience is lacking, in large part because of no match mkaing and barriers to entry in competitive play.

Your either a super casual hot join player, or competitive, its hard to be semi casual which is what grows the community with enough interest in the pvp enviroment to be interested in a competitive e sports generating environment.

This exactly. As it is right now the people who fall in the middle, who are likely the majority have the following options:

1. continue playing zerg-join which offers no sense of team work, no sense of accomplishment, and no sense of victory.

2. solo queue for tournament and get 4v5 matches and premades

3. form a casual team for free tournament and stomp pugs 5v4, lose to elite premades who need tickets because they lost to no-lifers in paids, and on very small occasions, face a similarly skilled team.

4. form a team for paid tournaments and get stomped by no lifers.

@Sprawl: Some people have lives, but just happen to be better at video games than others. Calling them “no-lifers” is an excuse to justify one’s own deficiencies. The fact that people who play casually have a hard time competing against those who practice is a good sign for the game’s skill ceiling.

However, the casual scene could definitely use some work, and I think the essence of the bullet points does outline part of the issue. There’s really no place for a casual to go for a really fulfilling teamwork-oriented game of GW2, and with the rank bar starting to set itself for PUGs, the problem will get worse and worse for new players.

It’s possible custom arenas will be developed that foster a 5v5 scenario that you can hot-join and enjoy with others who have a similar mentality, but if those are in high demand, they’ll be hard to get into. Alternatively, it’ll be difficult to keep some full, leaving games with those of a more competitive mind at uneven numbers.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Sprawl: Some people have lives, but just happen to be better at video games than others. Calling them “no-lifers” is an excuse to justify one’s own deficiencies. The fact that people who play casually have a hard time competing against those who practice is a good sign for the game’s skill ceiling.

However, the casual scene could definitely use some work, and I think the essence of the bullet points does outline part of the issue. There’s really no place for a casual to go for a really fulfilling teamwork-oriented game of GW2, and with the rank bar starting to set itself for PUGs, the problem will get worse and worse for new players.

It’s possible custom arenas will be developed that foster a 5v5 scenario that you can hot-join and enjoy with others who have a similar mentality, but if those are in high demand, they’ll be hard to get into. Alternatively, it’ll be difficult to keep some full, leaving games with those of a more competitive mind at uneven numbers.

Well not to insult them either, but those guys are all around rank 50 and up now, which is close to 1 million glory. I also agree with what sprawl said. The system needs considerable work.

Repeatedly going in with a 4 man or 3 man team to fight “paids-level” pvpers who are just dicking around/practicing kills the game extremely quickly for new pvpers.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Sprawl: Some people have lives, but just happen to be better at video games than others. Calling them “no-lifers” is an excuse to justify one’s own deficiencies. The fact that people who play casually have a hard time competing against those who practice is a good sign for the game’s skill ceiling.

However, the casual scene could definitely use some work, and I think the essence of the bullet points does outline part of the issue. There’s really no place for a casual to go for a really fulfilling teamwork-oriented game of GW2, and with the rank bar starting to set itself for PUGs, the problem will get worse and worse for new players.

It’s possible custom arenas will be developed that foster a 5v5 scenario that you can hot-join and enjoy with others who have a similar mentality, but if those are in high demand, they’ll be hard to get into. Alternatively, it’ll be difficult to keep some full, leaving games with those of a more competitive mind at uneven numbers.

im only basing my comment on real play hour requirements I have seen in “serious” tournament pvp recruitment threads. play hours that require, well having basically no life. I’m sure /age of the “top” players divided by days the game has been released would only confirm this further.

Right, its what i mean by barriers to entry. its VERY hard to be a semi casual pvper in this game.

Its good for ultra casuals doing 3 pvp hot join matchs for there daily.
Its ok for ppl trying to break into competivie scene playing w teams a few hours a day.
the people in the middle, they really struggle.

Rinzler.8072:

I want Huttball

Only reason I logged into SWTOR

Meh gimmie rollerbeetle racing and i’ll be happy.

Rinzler.8072:

I want Huttball

Yeah, me too. Best new pvp game mode that’s been introduced in years, and the one that actually had the most ‘e-sport’ potential imo. Just needed the ability to spectate and of course some class balance tweaks. Perhaps dropping 2 players per side to make it more sport-ish.

NevirSayDie.6235:

True, and there just aren’t a lot of people who are SO extremely casual that they’re all right with hotjoin. I think “semi-casual” is going to become a buzzword in the industry within the next five years.

Since when has an absence of match-making been the realm of the super casual? Most old pvp games with multiple, hot-joinable servers (especially FPS games, whom GW2 used as a model for the server list) have had nothing at all to do with match making. You join the game, and you play your best. Some people were worse than you, some were better, and everybody dealt with that. The concept of casual and hardcore never played in to it, nor did the want for match making. And those games were never worse for their situation.

On the contrary, I’d say everyone acts totally backwards about hot join. The whole concept of necessary matchmaking in non-tournament pvp is a poor byproduct of esports. As if once you reveal to players that they form a qualitative tier hierarchy, those players feel compelled to abide by it, when there’s no actual need to do so.

SharadSun.3089:

Well, look at a game like League of Legends (which GW2 borrows rather heavily from).

There’s basically one playstyle. Hell, there’s one map. The variety kick in when you consider tournament PvP, and the different team comps/matchups/skill levels/rivalries you’ll undoubtedly cultivate when playing against the top echelons.

Until then, it’s kind of drudgery, just like any other major sport. The exciting part is the players and the thrill of melting face in combat.

Casuals are okay! Nothing wrong with it. But as a semi hardcore player, I can tell you that you’re missing out on the experience.

There are a hundred characters and multiple builds to each character. That alone ensures a level of diversity that this game will never have. Spvp has one or two viable builds of each class… usually one. And only a handful of classes. Pretty boring long term.

Pinder.5261:

Since when has an absence of match-making been the realm of the super casual? Most old pvp games with multiple, hot-joinable servers (especially FPS games, whom GW2 used as a model for the server list) have had nothing at all to do with match making. You join the game, and you play your best. Some people were worse than you, some were better, and everybody dealt with that. The concept of casual and hardcore never played in to it, nor did the want for match making. And those games were never worse for their situation.

On the contrary, I’d say everyone acts totally backwards about hot join. The whole concept of necessary matchmaking in non-tournament pvp is a poor byproduct of esports. As if once you reveal to players that they form a qualitative tier hierarchy, those players feel compelled to abide by it, when there’s no actual need to do so.

Thank you, Pinder. Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who remembers playing the same CS 1.3 server over and over and over again because I started to familiarize myself with the people, while just trying to become better at the game. In fact, I STILL remember a guy named PowderedToastMan on one of the servers, because he was the only other guy with a 200+ 56k ping, but he still wrecked. It was inspiring.

All this matchmaking talk always makes me double-take, because I don’t understand why people seem to dub it a necessity.

Naturally, it isn’t a necessity, but I doubt (m)any feel like staying in a room of rank <10s when your own rank is 30+. Slaugthering nablets isn’t fun, nor is dying to nablet zergs. Or any zergs, for that matter.

Everyone likes to complain about class balance issues typically. That’s not really the problem. THe issue is that the same game mode becomes boring after a while.

I’m a casual/semi-casual and think that profession balance is important but it’s not as important as the other problems with hot join pvp including lack of game modes; lack of any kind of match-making algorithm to at least balance the OP classes across teams and perhaps balance higher ranked players; lack of penalty for people leaving matches because they are losing; lack of a system that promotes even teams – currently players can opt to join a <even number>/10 match knowing that they will be on the team with an extra player for the easy kills/points – I strongly believe there are a lot of players taking advantage of this. Also the the “play now” option should take into consideration unbalanced matches and attempt to balance them – if it’s not already doing this.

All these are fundamental issues that need to be addressed before anything else including changes that propel the game towards “esport”. If new players cannot enter the game and start having fun without suffering from those issues, you’ll never have a player base that will facilitate any kind of esport environment.

leadfoot mate, class balance is the most important aspect of a PvP game. The rest comes second. I would have more fun in a perfect balanced game with only 1 map then an unbalanced game with 50.

an example of this is WoW i played wsg was the only map i played. Dota2 is just game type and is allot of fun.

also how cool would it be if they made a game in GW2 that was similar to Dota2 or LoL. Just sayin would be allot of fun

Pinder.5261:

NevirSayDie.6235:

True, and there just aren’t a lot of people who are SO extremely casual that they’re all right with hotjoin. I think “semi-casual” is going to become a buzzword in the industry within the next five years.

Since when has an absence of match-making been the realm of the super casual? Most old pvp games with multiple, hot-joinable servers (especially FPS games, whom GW2 used as a model for the server list) have had nothing at all to do with match making. You join the game, and you play your best. Some people were worse than you, some were better, and everybody dealt with that. The concept of casual and hardcore never played in to it, nor did the want for match making. And those games were never worse for their situation.

On the contrary, I’d say everyone acts totally backwards about hot join. The whole concept of necessary matchmaking in non-tournament pvp is a poor byproduct of esports. As if once you reveal to players that they form a qualitative tier hierarchy, those players feel compelled to abide by it, when there’s no actual need to do so.

The issue is that this is NOT a FPS, and using an FPS as a model is the mistake. In a FPS you can still have fun if you are on a team with less people, the maps are bigger and you can still find places to hide, snipe, gank, etc and have fun. GW2 has small maps, one game mode that promotes mindless zerging. There is nothing similar in how GW2 plays vs a how a FPS plays.

There’s a reason every other mmo with pvp doesn’t have something similiar to hot join and instead uses a system that starts the game when both sides have equal number of players and penalizes people who quit before the game ends.

Sprawl.3891:

The issue is that this is NOT a FPS, and using an FPS as a model is the mistake. In a FPS you can still have fun if you are on a team with less people, the maps are bigger and you can still find places to hide, snipe, gank, etc and have fun. GW2 has small maps, one game mode that promotes mindless zerging. There is nothing similar in how GW2 plays vs a how a FPS plays.

There’s a reason every other mmo with pvp doesn’t have something similiar to hot join and instead uses a system that starts the game when both sides have equal number of players and penalizes people who quit before the game ends.

I think this post actually cuts into an interesting issue. As much as I think a comparison about Rank 10s vs Rank 30s falls a bit flat (I’m Rank 7, and I’d gladly fight a Rank 30), and as much as I see what ANet was trying to accomplish with the more FPS-oriented server style, I also have to question the implementation of hot-join in an MMO like GW2.

Sprawl does have it right. In an FPS, Time-To-Kill doesn’t necessarily matter much. Many prominent FPS’s can have TTK’s of about .3 seconds once enemies come in contact, based on reaction times and ability to pick out heads. It isn’t a problem in an FPS, because the skill is about movement, positioning, timing, and the ability to aim. For an MMO, TTKs are based on the use of abilities, and as such, you can’t really have an enjoyable experience as much if you could just pounce and splat someone out of the blue (yes, I’m aware this sounds like Backstab, let’s ignore that for now).

Because of this TTK issue, when you’re down 1 person, it becomes a serious issue. Compound that issue with the fact that yes, maps are small, and the victory conditions are “Congregate on this point”. Battles are going to be more focused around small areas, so it could be difficult to avoid the numbers advantage. There’s no running in and picking 3 people off with a magical play to capture a point, so even if you’re down one person in an FPS, it isn’t nearly as much of an issue as when you’re down a person in an MMO like GW2.

I still like the potential sense of community that a custom arena could bring similar to that of being a “regular” on an FPS server. However, the application of a hotjoin model to an MMO should definitely be questioned.

there is a place for hot join, maybe like 10 servers to literally jump in test a build, jump out, but the overwhelming majority of casual pvp should be like every other game

-queue for SINGLE GAME map of choice (NO ROTATION)
-queue pops when both sides have 3 people (or whatever # is appropriate)
-game starts and continues to fill until both teams hit 5 or 8.
- game plays until end, if someone quits they get 30 min debuff and it puts priority to fill that spot over a game that hasn’t started.
- increase bonus for winning 10 fold

Pinder.5261:

NevirSayDie.6235:

True, and there just aren’t a lot of people who are SO extremely casual that they’re all right with hotjoin. I think “semi-casual” is going to become a buzzword in the industry within the next five years.

Since when has an absence of match-making been the realm of the super casual? Most old pvp games with multiple, hot-joinable servers (especially FPS games, whom GW2 used as a model for the server list) have had nothing at all to do with match making. You join the game, and you play your best. Some people were worse than you, some were better, and everybody dealt with that. The concept of casual and hardcore never played in to it, nor did the want for match making. And those games were never worse for their situation.

On the contrary, I’d say everyone acts totally backwards about hot join. The whole concept of necessary matchmaking in non-tournament pvp is a poor byproduct of esports. As if once you reveal to players that they form a qualitative tier hierarchy, those players feel compelled to abide by it, when there’s no actual need to do so.

…I didn’t even mention matchmaking. My issues are with the way hotjoins don’t really feel like a real “match” because of all the joining, leaving, team switching, and zerging. If you’re “all right” with just popping into a game and using some skills on some people without really caring about “winning,” then you are “all right” with hotjoin. There are some players who honestly couldn’t care less about the match, and they are very casual, or perhaps only “competitive” about seeing a big glory number at the end or winning a duel. I wasn’t really referring to how good they are.

Since you mention matchmaking, though, let’s accept the fact that you and I are fine without it. I’m not the greatest player, but I’m good enough to know that I can outplay a decent percentage of other players. When I solo queue, if it’s pug vs pug my team usually wins. In other words, my skill level is in a high enough percentile that I have a high probability of getting interesting matches regularly.

Take anyone in the bottom 40% of players, though, and you’ll find a different experience. In a pug vs pug, their pug will usually lose. Against a premade they’ll lose games 500 to less than 50, sometimes 500-0. They aren’t “okay” with the fact that some players are better than them. They rarely see a victory, or even a loss closer than 100 points.

All of that is “all right” if they’re okay with just hopping into a hotjoin, following the zerg, and rushing toward svanir/chieftan every time they come up. However, there are relatively few people who are so casual they actually don’t care about the match. Most people want to try hard and succeed against the other team, even if they’re in the bottom 40% of player skill.

tl;dr: just because you do all right without matchmaking doesn’t mean the game doesn’t need it.

Thats it exactly, hot join doesnt feel like a match per se.
Its just randomness, and often zergy.