Guild Wars 2

I don’t do tPvP, nor do I play SoloQ more than once in a while.

Enlighten me: Why is Skyhammer bad in SoloQ and TeamQ?

Please be objective, reasonable, and don’t go bonkers.

Why is it bad?

You can 1 shot people with CC spam
Unblockable cannon
Not every class has the same amount of CC and stability

What is good?

Nothing

Lukin.4061:

You can 1 shot people with CC spam
Unblockable cannon
Not every class has the same amount of CC and stability

So, essentially the issue lies with the fact that people can be pushed to their death, and that the Secondary mechanic is too strong?

@Lukin
1. Yes, you are punished for bad positioning. Nothing wrong here.
2. I have mixed feeling about the cannon, but let’s say it could be somehow changed.
3. Then go play chess.

@Phadde
You see, there is a bunch of so-called “pro players” who would only fight in a square arena without any objectives, because every extra addition is potentially OP.

They play the best build found on the internet, and any change made to it is unacceptable, because in their way of thinking they would become underpowered (what is not true). Some of them create their own -best- builds, but the above rule still applies.

Skyhammer forces players to play differently than on standard maps, what makes them totally lose their minds.

Still, majority of players enjoy Skyhammer, and they are simply enjoying it in silence.

Phadde.7362:

I don’t do tPvP, nor do I play SoloQ more than once in a while.

Enlighten me: Why is Skyhammer bad in SoloQ and TeamQ?

Please be objective, reasonable, and don’t go bonkers.

1. Switch to engi. Win every fight on side points and hammer room. Feel yourself very pro.
2. Stealth pulls.
3. Undodgable hammer.

Dagins.5163:

2. I have mixed feeling about the cannon, but let’s say it could be somehow changed.
….
….

Skyhammer forces players to play differently than on standard maps, what makes them totally lose their minds.

Still, majority of players enjoy Skyhammer, and they are simply enjoying it in silence.

So it would seem that some don’t like this… variation while playing sPvP? Seems wierd since a big chunk of the criticism towards PvP in GW2 is its repetitive nature (perhaps because there’s only one game mode?)

Perhaps it’s just easy to get used to something (repetitiveness?) that when something new and in theory more exciting gets added it’s rejected by some?
I guess that cannon can make this snowball as well; It feels to me like it simply denies your presence in its targeted location, which can be annoying (Somehow, I’m fine with Trebs though)

Because for a map that prides itself a PvP map, it has surprisingly little PvP.

It’s more PvE actually because the environment (and the gigantic space-cannon) is your biggest enemy.

Essentially it’s a map build around cheesing other players, rather than actually fighting them in a competitive manner. In that regard it fits perfectly to Guild Wars 2.

Dee Jay.2460:

Because for a map that prides itself a PvP map, it has surprisingly little PvP.

It’s more PvE actually because the environment (and the gigantic space-cannon) is your biggest enemy.

Essentially it’s a map build around cheesing other players, rather than actually fighting them in a competitive manner. In that regard it fits perfectly to Guild Wars 2.

Essentially Player versus Player while utilizing and considering the interactive Environment.

Some classes have significantly better CC that suits Skyhammer (knockback/pull/etc) than other classes. For example Elementalists have basically non-existent knockback or stability while Engineers can endlessly troll people with knockbacks and toolkit magnet pull.

On points A, C and Skyhammer Room there is actually no PvP going on, purely a competition of who can knock/pull someone to their death.

Then there’s Skyhammer itself which is absurdly overpowered – radius is bigger than capture points, hits hard, knocks down, can’t be dodged/blocked.

Wintel.4873:

Some classes have significantly better CC that suits Skyhammer (knockback/pull/etc) than other classes. For example Elementalists have basically non-existent knockback or stability while Engineers can endlessly troll people with knockbacks and toolkit magnet pull.

On points A, C and Skyhammer Room there is actually no PvP going on, purely a competition of who can knock/pull someone to their death.

Then there’s Skyhammer itself which is absurdly overpowered – radius is bigger than capture points, hits hard, knocks down, can’t be dodged/blocked.

Good point. Elementalists have knockbacks on Staff and OH Dagger, and on Lightning Hammer. Armor of Earth has a really long CD, and even though there is a trait which gives you 2 sec of Stability upon attuning to Earth, It’s easy to imagine why people wouldn’t want to change their traits each time they randomly get into “that map”.

Some Professions definitely have a seemingly unfair advantage; “Fear Me”, which is unblockable , and instant cast abilities which knocks you off must be really annoying at times.

1 shot gimmicks have no place in competitive settings, in any game or sport, ever.

There are two 1 shot gimmicks in the map.

Solo Q and Team Q are competitive settings (leaderboards).

Anyone who defends the map living inside a competitive setting, does not care for skill, balance, or fair game play.

These people who don’t care or skill, or balance, or fair game play, you will find in hotjoin, and this is why ANET hasn’t removed the map from Solo Q yet, because they have their sources of information confused.

Phadde.7362:

Good point. Elementalists have knockbacks on Staff and OH Dagger, and on Lightning Hammer.

30 secs on Gust with a slow telegraph, 40 secs on Updraft needing melee range.

even though there is a trait which gives you 2 sec of Stability upon attuning to Earth, It’s easy to imagine why people wouldn’t want to change their traits each time they randomly get into “that map”.

20 points into earth would require a complete build overhaul unless the Ele was already running an earth build, most are running fresh air or water+arcana support : /

Realist.5812:

snip

I sorta agree with you, but I think you’re being a bit extreme.

Wintel.4873:

30 secs on Gust with a slow telegraph, 40 secs on Updraft needing melee range.

20 points into earth would require a complete build overhaul unless the Ele was already running an earth build, most are running fresh air or water+arcana support : /

Indeed.

The Strenght of the Canon makes it very important to hold.
This basicly turns the Canon into a “4th Capture” point.
The Conquest / Capture Point -System is makes bunker builds very strong.
Another “Capture point” increases the strength of bunker builds.
MM of SoloQ is bad and often leads to very unbalanced separation of bunkers among the teams.
Meaning, 1 team migth have a 2-3 bunkers while the other one has 0-1 bunkers.
This is already bad for the other PvP maps. The fact that on Skyhammer you also have to hold the Canon increases this effect.

The amount of knockbacks and/or stability some professions have and others don’t is the other problem.
Or stuff like knockbacks / pulls coming from stealthed players making those often undodgeable.

Phadde.7362:

I don’t do tPvP, nor do I play SoloQ more than once in a while.

Enlighten me: Why is Skyhammer bad in SoloQ and TeamQ?

Please be objective, reasonable, and don’t go bonkers.

If the games queue system was normal, if you could pick and choose the maps you wanted to play, Skyhammer would be fine, it would be good.
Maps like that would have added allot to the game especially if Anet tagged on different game-mode options to them…

But… the queue system sucks.
Skyhammer isn’t that kind of map… it doesn’t fit into that kind of random rotation, at all. Skyhammer is a map where you typically have to play a different kind of spec and be in a different mindset to enjoy it, randomly always chucking that at EVERYONE is naturally going to kitten many people off.

Again, not a bad map, just terribly implemented, if Anet had opened up the map/mode system more, if they made a queue system where you could queue up for certain maps and made a list of possible modes for each map… the game would have held on to sooooo many more players.

The community would actually feel appreciated, they would actually feel like they could help the game progress by talking about which modes/maps are working leaving the only job for Anet to be tweaking and tossing out content.

Phadde.7362:

So it would seem that some don’t like this… variation while playing sPvP? Seems wierd since a big chunk of the criticism towards PvP in GW2 is its repetitive nature (perhaps because there’s only one game mode?)
…

People will always complain about something. If nobody is complaning, that means the game is dead.

You will see when new game modes arrive, people will complain about something else. GW2 is a unique game, what produces many conflicting opinions. Thankfully, devs don’t do rapid actions based on them, because that would seriously harm the game.

It’d be such an easy fix to let players just OPT OUT of 1 map of their choosing when they queue for solo or team tournys.

That way the engis can continue queueing for it and everyone who dislikes it gets to queue for the rest of the maps.

Phadde.7362:

So it would seem that some don’t like this… variation while playing sPvP? Seems wierd since a big chunk of the criticism towards PvP in GW2 is its repetitive nature (perhaps because there’s only one game mode?)
…

So what you’re saying is that instead of having 3 points to capture with various mechanics such as trebuchets, guild lords or orbs, we got a map where theres 3 points to capture with a mechanic that is hauntingly similiar to that of the trebuchets.

Such variation, much difference.

I don’t think the map is bad for solo Que or team Que. I think that people complain about it because they don’t want to have to mind their positioning, and play the terrain. The cannon is very powerful, but it has a long pre-fire tell. I usually leave the area as soon as i see it bout to fire. I wonder if people are complaining about the cannon, because they think they should be able to just take it to the face. The fact that you don’t know its the next map can be a problem, but you have to accept the situation and deal with it accordingly.

>m0r0ns complaining about positioning
>implying it’s not bad when you can be killed in less than 1 second with simply immob+kb/pull
>implying it’s not bad when you can be killed in less than 1 second with simply stealth+kb/pull
>implying it’s not bad when you can be killed in less than 1 second by bunker
>implying all people have eagle vision so it’s easy to read any minimum height asura animations
>positioning
Ha-ha. I stopped playing engineer because this class turned into faceroll kitten on one single map.

The main problem of GW2 devs is that they refuse to reverse any changes even if things they implement is bad as hell. There were literally, LITERALLY tons of threads suggesting to reverse changes of last summer patch, but you know the result. They said that they listen to us. They lie. I saw many suggestions, any NONE of them were implemented. If I’m wrong – then correct me with links and quotes.

RusShiro.9241:

I don’t think the map is bad for solo Que or team Que. I think that people complain about it because they don’t want to have to mind their positioning, and play the terrain. The cannon is very powerful, but it has a long pre-fire tell. I usually leave the area as soon as i see it bout to fire. I wonder if people are complaining about the cannon, because they think they should be able to just take it to the face. The fact that you don’t know its the next map can be a problem, but you have to accept the situation and deal with it accordingly.

There is no such thing as positioning in A or C to prepare you for a stealth pull from an engi and stunbreaks won’t save you when they immediately net shot you after the pull.

EverythingEnds.4261:

MM of SoloQ is bad and often leads to very unbalanced separation of bunkers among the teams.
Meaning, 1 team migth have a 2-3 bunkers while the other one has 0-1 bunkers.
This is already bad for the other PvP maps. The fact that on Skyhammer you also have to hold the Canon increases this effect.

There are 3 serious problems I have with this map.

The first one, the biggest one, is that instagib is not fun for me. At all. It’s frustrating to die to, and unsatisfying to kill by.

Second is that CC and stability are not even slightly fairly balanced between classes, and this map is all about bringing as much CC and stability as you possibly can.

Thirdly is what EverythingEnds says: team composition matters, and in soloq this means you’ll get all sorts of team matchups. The map, with its increadibly heavy focus on CC, rewards the team with more knockback-tastic (cheesemode, if you want) builds/profession – far more than the advantage that a lucky/unlucky teamcomp will affect the outcome of matches on any other map.

Add to these that the map is buggy as hell (gate doesn’t work, camera hell when you’re near to a platform as it breaks, sometimes don’t die when you fall ‘to your death’), and you have an altogether infuriating game to play.

Whilst I have to agree with some of the complaints, esp. about the high importance of team composition and the many map bugs, it does provide a check to positioning skills, stability awareness and adaptability – after all, weapons, skills and traits can be adjusted before a spvp match starts.
Hammer control almost always decides the outcome of the match, which in turn makes it one big zergfest on hammer if both teams are aware of it (which interestingly hardly ever seems to be the case).

Matisse.9356:

it does provide a check to positioning skills, stability awareness and adaptability – after all, weapons, skills and traits can be adjusted before a spvp match starts.

While we can’t currently change traits before a match in response to enemy team composition, this is hopefully coming soon – either that, or a full lock of all equipment setup as soon as players queue for a game. I’d probably be fine with either, just not the current mess that stops us from resetting/reallocating traits in PvP maps.

With regards to positional awareness: the map could be designed to strongly reward this without involving instant-kill mechanics.
Consider the midpoint on Kyhlo: you can knock people off, and it takes an appreciable amount of time to get back up to the point, but you can:
- position yourself to only get knocked back (towards a treb side) rather than down to the lower level
- time stability/dodges well to avoid the knockback

Battles over that capture point can be pretty fun, and people don’t constantly make threads complaining about it. The problem with Skyhammer is that such knockbacks/pulls instantly kill the CC’d player rather than just giving a combat/positional advantage to the CC’er, thereby making skills that can move enemies around far more powerful than they were ever balanced around being.

Erebos.6741:

Skyhammer is fair in the sense that it offers equal opportunity through symmetrical design, but it also promotes control abilities to the point of narrowing effective build diversity and devaluing combat through cheap mechanics.

Still it’s balanced and there are probably people who enjoy the playstyle, so I think it should stay, however, there are obviously many people who don’t enjoy it, so I think the best solution is to allow options to check (enable/disable) maps so everyone is happy.

[+1] Garethh/Lue

cheese.4739:

Matisse.9356:

it does provide a check to positioning skills, stability awareness and adaptability – after all, weapons, skills and traits can be adjusted before a spvp match starts.

While we can’t currently change traits before a match in response to enemy team composition, this is hopefully coming soon – either that, or a full lock of all equipment setup as soon as players queue for a game. I’d probably be fine with either, just not the current mess that stops us from resetting/reallocating traits in PvP maps.

With regards to positional awareness: the map could be designed to strongly reward this without involving instant-kill mechanics.
Consider the midpoint on Kyhlo: you can knock people off, and it takes an appreciable amount of time to get back up to the point, but you can:
- position yourself to only get knocked back (towards a treb side) rather than down to the lower level
- time stability/dodges well to avoid the knockback

Battles over that capture point can be pretty fun, and people don’t constantly make threads complaining about it. The problem with Skyhammer is that such knockbacks/pulls instantly kill the CC’d player rather than just giving a combat/positional advantage to the CC’er, thereby making skills that can move enemies around far more powerful than they were ever balanced around being.

Just for clarification: I meant the major trait selection, not a full reallocation of traits.

I share your concerns of this map for competitive play, but I am also convinced that many complaints simply stem from inexperience, as it is always easier to blame external circumstances than to admit that one’s gotta learn and improve.

Dagins.5163:

People will always complain about something. If nobody is complaning, that means the game is dead.

skyhammer is just a bad map, you will find very few people complaining about maps like Foefire and Forest because they are great maps with basic secondary factors (the npc objectives)

i think with skyhammer the devs just tried too hard to make it interesting, they added too much focus on secondary factors (the instant death from falling and the unavoidable, nearly-OHK cannon) that the secondary factors play a bigger role than the actual objective.

the map has become a troll playground of knockback and pull builds.

TL;DR people complain when there is something to complain about.
thats why there is very little objection to good maps like Forest / Foefire.

Liewec.2896:

Dagins.5163:

People will always complain about something. If nobody is complaning, that means the game is dead.

skyhammer is just a bad map, you will find very few people complaining about maps like Foefire and Forest because they are great maps with basic secondary factors (the npc objectives)

i think with skyhammer the devs just tried too hard to make it interesting, they added too much focus on secondary factors (the instant death from falling and the unavoidable, nearly-OHK cannon) that the secondary factors play a bigger role than the actual objective.

the map has become a troll playground of knockback and pull builds.

TL;DR people complain when there is something to complain about.
thats why there is very little objection to good maps like Forest / Foefire.

If we assume that the hammer in Skyhammer is intended as a secondary factor with equal importance as in Forest or Foefire, then the map clearly failed.
I agree with that.

Your TL;DR though… I have to object to and fully share Dagins’ take on it.

XGhoul.7426:

RusShiro.9241:

I don’t think the map is bad for solo Que or team Que. I think that people complain about it because they don’t want to have to mind their positioning, and play the terrain. The cannon is very powerful, but it has a long pre-fire tell. I usually leave the area as soon as i see it bout to fire. I wonder if people are complaining about the cannon, because they think they should be able to just take it to the face. The fact that you don’t know its the next map can be a problem, but you have to accept the situation and deal with it accordingly.

There is no such thing as positioning in A or C to prepare you for a stealth pull from an engi and stunbreaks won’t save you when they immediately net shot you after the pull.

If you are not able to use your evade when a big, fad red beam pointing at you when you deserve to get pulled of the map. Dont blame the map mechanics for it.
Scorpion wire of the thief is way more complicated, cause where is no animation for it and you have to hope to hear the glass splinter early enough.

lindstroem.3601:

XGhoul.7426:

RusShiro.9241:

I don’t think the map is bad for solo Que or team Que. I think that people complain about it because they don’t want to have to mind their positioning, and play the terrain. The cannon is very powerful, but it has a long pre-fire tell. I usually leave the area as soon as i see it bout to fire. I wonder if people are complaining about the cannon, because they think they should be able to just take it to the face. The fact that you don’t know its the next map can be a problem, but you have to accept the situation and deal with it accordingly.

There is no such thing as positioning in A or C to prepare you for a stealth pull from an engi and stunbreaks won’t save you when they immediately net shot you after the pull.

If you are not able to use your evade when a big, fad red beam pointing at you when you deserve to get pulled of the map. Dont blame the map mechanics for it.
Scorpion wire of the thief is way more complicated, cause where is no animation for it and you have to hope to hear the glass splinter early enough.

You cannot dodge the cannon. You need to literally be out of the circle, also the map itself is bad because on the map all you need are tons of pulls+knockbacks and stability and you will win every fight. There is no skill, calling thieves that just scorpion wires you in stealth when you’re capping a point is not skill.

Matisse.9356:

Just for clarification: I meant the major trait selection, not a full reallocation of traits.

However the CC-reliant gameplay on the map means that many players can’t change out major traits to something more suitable, and actually need to get into another tree entirely.

Elementalist stability sources:
- Armour of Earth, utility skill
- Tornado, elite skill, locks out other skills
- Armour of Earth, procs at 50% health for Earth’s Embrace adept trait
- Rock Solid, 2s of stability whenever you attune to earth, master trait

The only two reliable sources of stability are a long-cooldown utility skill, and a master-level trait in the Earth line (which isn’t very commonly used for any build not running Rock Solid already). Without trait point reassignment many Ele builds become extremely vulnerable to the instagib mess that is Skyhammer.

I share your concerns of this map for competitive play, but I am also convinced that many complaints simply stem from inexperience, as it is always easier to blame external circumstances than to admit that one’s gotta learn and improve.

Many of the complaints probably are due to inexperience, but that doesn’t mean the map should stay in rotation. CC skills just aren’t fairly balanced between professions - and nor should they be, as only one aspect of combat - and this map turns those CC skills into instant kills at 3/4 of its main combat zones.