Guild Wars 2

I got an engi down while at tranq and was getting ready to stomp. I was low on health, and had saved my last invulnerability to avoid his CC. It was a good fight and though I saw another guy heading to save I calculated he wouldn’t be in time. Until he arrives and puts down shadow refuge.

Poof! He ressed, they killed me, got tranq, and we lost the game.

Thieves are so fond of telling us that stealth =/= not there. Wrong! It’s a huge flag/stake through the heart. Being invisible shouldn’t mean that the target becomes invulnerable. At best, stomp is a channeled skill and we all know those track through stealth. The attack lands. The stomp should be complete.

I can’t believe this discrepancy still exists. Everyone says that if your opponent is stealthed, your attacks will continue to connect. Stomps should connect as well. It’s ridiculous that you can cheat someone of a killing blow right in the same place just because a thief stealths them for whatever reason.

Trow a turret on the downed person and step back..

As a necro i stopped stomping all together in spvp and leave it to the stealth or stability users.

I don’t want to say it’s a learn to play issue here, but there are ways to counter stealth survivability when trying to stomp. If you see that shadow refuge or an enemy go stealth that you are trying to finish dodge to cancel your stomp and use any knock-backs/aoe that you have on the area they were down. People still take damage while stealth and a lot of times you can knock-back or down the person trying to res.

Luto.1938:

I don’t want to say it’s a learn to play issue here, but there are ways to counter stealth survivability when trying to stomp. If you see that shadow refuge or an enemy go stealth that you are trying to finish dodge to cancel your stomp and use any knock-backs/aoe that you have on the area they were down. People still take damage while stealth and a lot of times you can knock-back or down the person trying to res.

I have two CCs, but they were both blown since this was the end of a fight. And one of my knockbacks requires a target . There was literally no way for me to counter this. If I was fresh and had all my CCs ready, then yeah. I could have pulled the thief out of SR. Not in this case.

My point is that stealth should not mean invulnerability. By implication, this means that they should be affected by a stomp which is also a channeled skill that usually tracks targets. After all, they’re still “there” aren’t they? So why don’t they die when we drive a stake into the ground through them? They haven’t changed position

Prevent the stomp with shadow refuge while you are invulnerable. Sounds like a skill

Lupanic.6502:

Prevent the stomp with shadow refuge while you are invulnerable. Sounds like a skill

But stealth doesn’t mean the person is invulnerable right? So why do they survive a stomp?

Stealth does not mean invulnerability. Use cleave damage when they go into stealth.

Sorry but using stealth to prevent a stomp is both skillful and tactical in play. We don’t need any more dumbing down of this game.

If you miss a stomp due to stealth you have lots of options open to counter play that move. If you’re out of cooldowns that’s not the games flaw.

You got beat. Yes you won the 1v1, great, but his teammate rotated properly and in time and did the right thing to prevent the stomp… you want this punished and taken away?!?

Kryshade.6075:

Stealth does not mean invulnerability. Use cleave damage when they go into stealth.

Sorry but using stealth to prevent a stomp is both skillful and tactical in play. We don’t need any more dumbing down of this game.

If you miss a stomp due to stealth you have lots of options open to counter play that move. If you’re out of cooldowns that’s not the games flaw.

You got beat. Yes you won the 1v1, great, but his teammate rotated properly and in time and did the right thing to prevent the stomp… you want this punished and taken away?!?

You haven’t answered why if stealth means the player is still “there”, don’t they die to a completed stomp. My stomp wasn’t interrupted (I made sure of that), so everything is the same, the guy is still lying exactly where he was before, so why doesn’t he die?

In this case, the game acts as if stealth = not there. And that’s just out of sync with what we’ve been told to expect from stealth.

Why is this even being debated? Seems a pretty watertight argument from here.

Most people continue attacking while downed so often Shadow Refuge won’t actually help.

While I understand it’s frustrating this is one of the few group utilities Thieves bring to a team and I would hate to see it taken away.

I agree though that this is a slight inconsistency with stomping. Blind doesn’t stop a stomp, so why should stealth? I think the game just checks if you have a target at the moment of your finisher.

When he’s stealthed your stake misses his heart and doesn’t kill him. There, I’ve answered your question. Now please stop trying to dumb this game down anymore than it’s already become.

Kryshade.6075:

When he’s stealthed your stake misses his heart and doesn’t kill him. There, I’ve answered your question. Now please stop trying to dumb this game down anymore than it’s already become.

But magically cleaves and all other auto attacks don’t miss? Merely coming up with some random explanation doesn’t make it a valid one. It also needs to make sense no?

The explanation is that stomping doesn’t count as an attack and therefore the “chaneled skills still hit” rule doesn’t apply. If you wanted to make stomp an actual attack there would emerge other problems, as the stomped could be blocked by aegis given by a guardian for example in that case.

Draugl.8079:

The explanation is that stomping doesn’t count as an attack and therefore the “chaneled skills still hit” rule doesn’t apply. If you wanted to make stomp an actual attack there would emerge other problems, as the stomped could be blocked by aegis given by a guardian for example in that case.

Yet all other non-attacks still impact the stealthed target. Like phantasm summoning. The bottom line is that stealth doesn’t mean the person vanishes. They’re “still there”, you just can’t see them. This has been drilled into us over and over again by people defending stealth. They say “we’re not invulnerable”. We still take hits. We’re still there!

Clearly this is in contrast to a huge stake being driven through the heart of the person lying on the ground. Nothing has changed. The person is still “there”. They should be dead.

Yes they are still there in stealth for your attacks not stomps. So attack!

Refuge is one of the more easily countered “down plays” and better yet you play the class that is best at countering it. If somehow every single one of your CC/interrupts is on CD then drop some poison on the refuge and continue rolling face across the nade/bombs and wala, if the thief trying to rez doesn’t jump out of the refuge with his tail between his legs then you not only finish the first enemy but you’ll secure another kill too.

So now you have 2 of the opposing team waiting to rez while you secure the Tranq buff, you had a chance to be great but blew it because you would rather QQ. = GG

It’s too much work. They would have to rework the mesmer his second downstate ability and thiefs their 3th. If people can stomp other people while being stealthed those 2 skills would serve no purpose at all anymore.

I don’t think stealthing downed players is too big of an issue in the game, there are only a handfull of skills that can do it as well, shadowrefuge being one of them. It’s actually the only way to prevent an invulnerability stomp. If anything needs a nerf it would be shadowrefuge itself, for a 60 second cooldown utility it gives insanely a lot, 90 seconds or even more would be the right approach in my eyes.

rmBossa.4621:

Yes they are still there in stealth for your attacks not stomps. So attack!

Refuge is one of the more easily countered “down plays” and better yet you play the class that is best at countering it. If somehow every single one of your CC/interrupts is on CD then drop some poison on the refuge and continue rolling face across the nade/bombs and wala, if the thief trying to rez doesn’t jump out of the refuge with his tail between his legs then you not only finish the first enemy but you’ll secure another kill too.

So now you have 2 of the opposing team waiting to rez while you secure the Tranq buff, you had a chance to be great but blew it because you would rather QQ. = GG

What bombs? I was a mesmer. And most of the mesmer’s strongest skills require a target to work. Autoattack is never strong enough to prevent a res that requires around 3 seconds in total. The whole “attack” distinction is a meaningless technicality.

Dont’ tell me how to fight a fresh thief when I’m just done and exhausted after defeating a tough opponent with all my skills on CD. I challenge you to have done better. It’s ridiculous the way people give advice here as if they’re PvP gods or something. No self respecting class would have lost to me when I was in that state. The least I could have done was to have killed the guy I’d already defeated.

I would like it if people didn’t defend the indefensible. Stealth doesn’t mean invulnerability. They’re still “there”. A stomp drives a flag through their body. They should come out dead. It’s that simple.

Either accept that stealthing a downed opponent is wrong or forever cease to use the argument “Stealth doesn’t mean the person is not there”. If they were there, they would have died. It’s simple logic.

“Yes they are still there in stealth for your attacks not stomps. So attack!”

spam aoe, works like magic…instead of 1 corpse there are 2 lol

i understand why people hate stealth, but honestly it is one of the reason why people bring thieves

if we start nerf things like this we might as well remove war banner, guard revive bubble, any kind of invul, rez elixir etc etc.

besides OP, you yourself used invul to get stomp off, that is more cheesy than any stealth tbh…what should have thief done in that situation, he can’t touch you really

as far as match goes, you lost it not only because of tranq

rmBossa.4621:

“Yes they are still there in stealth for your attacks not stomps. So attack!”

Technicality. If they’re there, they should die. It’s a stake through the body. How do they suddenly survive that just because they’re in stealth?

Look, I’m ok with people saying “It’s ridiculous yeah, but well, that’s GW2 for you”. What I get kittened over is people defending this nonsense.

bhagwad.4281:

rmBossa.4621:

“Yes they are still there in stealth for your attacks not stomps. So attack!”

Technicality. If they’re there, they should die. It’s a stake through the body. How do they suddenly survive that just because they’re in stealth?

Look, I’m ok with people saying “It’s ridiculous yeah, but well, that’s GW2 for you”. What I get kittened over is people defending this nonsense.

if we gonna start trying to make sense, assume that stealth is like blinding powder… you try to stake some guy, i run to you, blind you and move body just 1 bit away… your stake will miss, even irl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UfJCNJScumk#t=30

It does suck that as an engineer you had no way to cleave/prevent the stomp. Kinda poor planning on the developers part as I think every class should have atleast one cleaving weapon. But anyways I think Shadows Refuge should be kept as is. So too should the stealth mechanic. While other classes have ways to prevent stomps. Thiefs only have stealth (If there is another way to prevent stomping besides shortbow 2 spam thiefs please tell me). And that is how it should be.

Every class should contribute to the team because Guild Wars 2 is a team based game. It does suck that the thief stealthed your target. But what would’ve stopped a warrior/necro/or even ranger from pulling you off the target. “I had stability up”. Other classes can strip boons and use CC (See thiefs, mesmers, and necromancers). Should we stop boon stripping/CC/Fear? Your enemies team mate revived your target. And they proceeded to win the game using team work. While it is true that driving a stake through the same place your opponent is even while he is stealthed should still stomp him simply by physics.

This is an MMO and is not tethered to the limitations of the real world such as the real world is. Don’t ask for such a big change to the mechanic of stealth when the only real reason you are posting this is because you didn’t get a stomp off against another player. Have a nice day

First rule: Any decent thief knows he can stealth a downed player but most of the times it’s not a good idea to rez him up by himself because any aoe would kill you before you can rez him up (Leaving alone the usual war who starts spamming longbow/hammer into sr like if there’s no tomorrow) + engis have lots of knockbacks and thieves have pretty much no stability (I don’t think someone is going to use basilisk with lyssa just to rez someone else in sr) so your fault for not aoe into sr or knockback that thief revealing him and interrupting rez. Stealthing downed mates is a key role for a thief in tpvp and we don’t need more pvp dumb mode…it’s enough already the way it is.

bobomb.5209:

It does suck that as an engineer you had no way to cleave/prevent the stomp. Kinda poor planning on the developers part as I think every class should have atleast one cleaving weapon. But anyways I think Shadows Refuge should be kept as is. So too should the stealth mechanic. While other classes have ways to prevent stomps. Thiefs only have stealth (If there is another way to prevent stomping besides shortbow 2 spam thiefs please tell me). And that is how it should be.

He was a mesmer lol. The player he downed was an engineer.

How did everyone get the idea that I was playing an engi. I said I got an engi down. As a mesmer with all my knockbacks on CD, there was no hope. None at all. My phantasms require a target to work.

bhagwad.4281:

How did everyone get the idea that I was playing an engi. I said I got an engi down. As a mesmer with all my knockbacks on CD, there was no hope. None at all. My phantasms require a target to work.

there are some things i can’t stop either… like mist form stomps, or shelter etc.

as far as mesmers go, use chaos storm… if you didn’t have it… well, you got outplayed

you shouldn’t be winning 2v1 anyway and your team failed at assisting you

Cynz.9437:

bhagwad.4281:

How did everyone get the idea that I was playing an engi. I said I got an engi down. As a mesmer with all my knockbacks on CD, there was no hope. None at all. My phantasms require a target to work.

there are some things i can’t stop either… like mist form stomps, or shelter etc.

as far as mesmers go, use chaos storm… if you didn’t have it… well, you got outplayed

you shouldn’t be winning 2v1 anyway and your team failed at assisting you

Outplayed? Really? That’s the word you choose to use to describe winning a fight and then being pounced on by another when exhausted with all CDs down? Jeez, I wonder what kind of superman standards people here have. But I’m fairly sure all this is just Internet hero talk. In actuality, no one in my position would have stood a chance, so let’s stop pretending that this is something to do with skill.

Outplayed. Yeah right. I wonder what people would call the opposite of outplayed then. I should have just drunk my magic potion and taught the whole opposing team a lesson! Hey, losing a 2v1 starting at low health means one is outplayed!

Stealth preventing stomp is a good mechanic that provides additional considerations for stomping players so that a downed player isn’t an automatic, brainless press F encounter.

If you’re an engi against a downed, stealth player, you probably shouldn’t have much trouble anyways since you can spam so much AoE damage on the spot anyways. =P

Dahkeus.8243:

Stealth preventing stomp is a good mechanic that provides additional considerations for stomping players so that a downed player isn’t an automatic, brainless press F encounter.

If you’re an engi against a downed, stealth player, you probably shouldn’t have much trouble anyways since you can spam so much AoE damage on the spot anyways. =P

Sigh. Yet another person thinks I’m an engi.

The game has mechanics for securing and preventing stomps – some players are better equipped to do this than others – I think that’s fine since it’s a team game.

Using stealth to counter a stomp is a skillful move that introduces more strategy/tactics into the game and I don’t think the “realism” argument you are making is a sufficient reason to change that – there are tons of things in the game that are not realistic per se – it’s just a game after all… Also, cleaving/aoe damage and knockbacks are good counters to stealthing downed players. Yeah, a mesmer may not have these tools like other classes do but again – it’s a team game.

bhagwad.4281:

Dahkeus.8243:

Stealth preventing stomp is a good mechanic that provides additional considerations for stomping players so that a downed player isn’t an automatic, brainless press F encounter.

If you’re an engi against a downed, stealth player, you probably shouldn’t have much trouble anyways since you can spam so much AoE damage on the spot anyways. =P

Sigh. Yet another person thinks I’m an engi.

Eh, misread, but the point stands. =P

In the end, you lost the fight because you and your team didn’t have the cooldowns available to defeat your enemy players who had cooldowns which won the day.

Soilder.3607:

bobomb.5209:

It does suck that as an engineer you had no way to cleave/prevent the stomp. Kinda poor planning on the developers part as I think every class should have atleast one cleaving weapon. But anyways I think Shadows Refuge should be kept as is. So too should the stealth mechanic. While other classes have ways to prevent stomps. Thiefs only have stealth (If there is another way to prevent stomping besides shortbow 2 spam thiefs please tell me). And that is how it should be.

He was a mesmer lol. The player he downed was an engineer.

Oh my bad I suppose I didn’t read that correctly. Well then I suppose he would have the ability to pressure the duo sooooooo….. his topic is kinda irrelavant. Though my points about thief stealth mechanic not changing remains the same.

bhagwad.4281:

Cynz.9437:

bhagwad.4281:

How did everyone get the idea that I was playing an engi. I said I got an engi down. As a mesmer with all my knockbacks on CD, there was no hope. None at all. My phantasms require a target to work.

there are some things i can’t stop either… like mist form stomps, or shelter etc.

as far as mesmers go, use chaos storm… if you didn’t have it… well, you got outplayed

you shouldn’t be winning 2v1 anyway and your team failed at assisting you

Outplayed? Really? That’s the word you choose to use to describe winning a fight and then being pounced on by another when exhausted with all CDs down? Jeez, I wonder what kind of superman standards people here have. But I’m fairly sure all this is just Internet hero talk. In actuality, no one in my position would have stood a chance, so let’s stop pretending that this is something to do with skill.

Outplayed. Yeah right. I wonder what people would call the opposite of outplayed then. I should have just drunk my magic potion and taught the whole opposing team a lesson! Hey, losing a 2v1 starting at low health means one is outplayed!

well you did get outplayed, your team failed at assisting you, while enemy team assisted the engi… so yes, you or your team rather got outplayed… it has nothing to do with stealth, it has something to do with your team not paying attention

you can’t win every fight, you won’t always get the stomp too

asking to nerf stealth like this because your team failed at simple team play mehcanics is plain stupid

as it stands, you basically complain that you didn’t win 2v1… if mesmers were always able to win 2v1 then everyone would run it and it would be just broken

oh and btw, mesmers do exactly same thing, they can use stealth to save their downed teammates

When I refuge downed players who are getting stomped I always make sure to roll over their incapacitated body and then place it precisely back where it was prior to the stomp attempt. Just sayin’ – maybe the thief learned to do the same.

Narcarsis.5739:

When I refuge downed players who are getting stomped I always make sure to roll over their incapacitated body and then place it precisely back where it was prior to the stomp attempt. Just sayin’ – maybe the thief learned to do the same.

Caed, the corpse shuffler lol

I’m with the OP. You can cleave and still damage somebody when they are invis, so why does being invisible make the stake miss? If you start a channeled skill (like lbow 2 on ranger) the attack hits even when the opponent becomes stealthed during the channel. However going with that then it would also have to change so aegis would protect staking and blinding would work as well. I’m not talking about balancing issues, because to me that’s outside the scope of what OP is discussing.

Also, for some reason I thought you were an engi as well. I guess when you said you were fighting an engi I just assumed you were one lol.

Oh and because nobody wants to lose a way to prevent permastability (Perma-pretty much everything i would say) crazy braindead hambow wars from roflstomping ppl even more they actually do…sr (And stealth in general) is the only way to save a downed mate vs stability stomping if he has no escape downed skills or he already used them..

Many specs dont have spammable cleaves/aoes which is something people dont seem to take into account, makes it a lot harder to deal with this. Though I dont really agree with the OP, it was a 2v1 at the end so you shouldnt be guarenteed the stomp at all.

Being stomped while the other person is in stealth is even more irritatin imo, especially when youre on a class that doesnt have an aoe inturrupt while downed and you cant do a thing to delay before help arrives, but i doubt that will ever change.

Jackums.3496:

bhagwad.4281:

Being invisible shouldn’t mean that the target becomes invulnerable.

It doesn’t.

AoE, cleave, etc.

But apparently not a killing rod through the body. Bit of a discrepancy no? In this regard, stealth = not there.

Dahkeus.8243:

Stealth preventing stomp is a good mechanic that provides additional considerations for stomping players so that a downed player isn’t an automatic, brainless press F encounter.

I think OPs suggestion would still cause stealth to prevent a stomp, if used before someone begins a stomp (if no target, no stomp initiation). It would be a fine change imo.

“But they’re still there! How does the stake miss?!”

For the same reason that a Thief can use magic to create a zone of invisibility that only affects allies and themselves: IT’S A VIDEO GAME.

Seriously dude, WOW, wanting it changed is one thing, but using RL-physics to justify a change in a video game is just plain stupid.

Incurafy.6329:

“But they’re still there! How does the stake miss?!”

For the same reason that a Thief can use magic to create a zone of invisibility that only affects allies and themselves: IT’S A VIDEO GAME.

Seriously dude, WOW, wanting it changed is one thing, but using RL-physics to justify a change in a video game is just plain stupid.

It’s called internal consistency. No one is asking for a real life application of physics. But within the stated rules of physics in game, it should be consistent.

nerf ninja nurse plx

Stealthing downed players isn’t a problem at all in this game. bhagwad is just raging because he lost a 1v2. You just want it dumbed down to suit your personal desires.

I suspect the underlying reason why you feel cheated is because of the power of GW2 reviving, where the relative ease/cost/risk is too advantageous.

Incurafy.6329:

“But they’re still there! How does the stake miss?!”

For the same reason that a Thief can use magic to create a zone of invisibility that only affects allies and themselves: IT’S A VIDEO GAME.

Seriously dude, WOW, wanting it changed is one thing, but using RL-physics to justify a change in a video game is just plain stupid.

‘I dont have to explain anything, its MAGIC!’

You’re a brilliant example of how not to be stupid.

bhagwad.4281:

Incurafy.6329:

“But they’re still there! How does the stake miss?!”

For the same reason that a Thief can use magic to create a zone of invisibility that only affects allies and themselves: IT’S A VIDEO GAME.

Seriously dude, WOW, wanting it changed is one thing, but using RL-physics to justify a change in a video game is just plain stupid.

It’s called internal consistency. No one is asking for a real life application of physics. But within the stated rules of physics in game, it should be consistent.

I do believe that you are the one asking for consistency with the known laws of physics. You quite literally suggested that the stake shouldn’t miss because invisibility != intangibility. This is a video game where the known laws of physics need not apply.

Let me break it down for you though, because kitten, why not right? In the lore of Guild Wars, the Thief uses the same branch of magic as the Mesmer, denial magic, which means that all sorts of so far unknown magical properties and affects may take place when a Thief uses their magic. For example, the fact that the Thief is able to use denial magic to place a field of invisibility that only affects himself and others of his choosing (Shadow Refuge) suggests a certain level of control over these properties. This means that, as far as the developers and designers are concerned, practically everything can be explained away by the fact that THIS IS A VIDEO GAME.

Last I checked, when my Thief stomps an enemy, a ghostly red wraith materialises from thin air, pierces them through the heart, then returns from whence it came. On the other hand, my Warrior summons a cow from the heavens that lands butt-first on the opponent, humiliating them for their friends to laugh at in the pub on Friday nights for all eternity.

In other words, you’re creating this so-called “consistency” to suit your argument when, in fact, your argument has no grounding in the internal logic of the game whatsoever. You and your team were outplayed in a team versus team mode of PvP and you’re just upset by that fact. Get over it, learn to play, and quit trying to dumb down the game even further by removing legitimate tactics (and not to mention destroying the usefulness of both Shadow Refuge and Mass Invisibility in PvP, lol).

GankSinatra.2653:

Incurafy.6329:

“But they’re still there! How does the stake miss?!”

For the same reason that a Thief can use magic to create a zone of invisibility that only affects allies and themselves: IT’S A VIDEO GAME.

Seriously dude, WOW, wanting it changed is one thing, but using RL-physics to justify a change in a video game is just plain stupid.

‘I dont have to explain anything, its MAGIC!’

You’re a brilliant example of how not to be stupid.

While you, my friend, are a perfect example of someone with the reading comprehension of a master scholar; truly, we are in the presence of greatness.

Back in beta if the target was stealthed after you started the finishing move, the stomp would go through. Obviously they decided the current mechanic was the better one to use.

This mechanic is absolutely required, because if it didn’t exist, the only method of stopping an invuln, portal or teleport stomp would be to res the person, which with the AoE cleave and lack of res skills, would be nearly impossible.