Guild Wars 2

I was talking with some peeps about turrets and objects in general (doors/gates) and I thought about the idea of them taking burning damage. Most real life objects would definitely be affected by fire/burning so I thought it might make sense and change up the game play. What do you all think?

tronjeremy.5820:

I was talking with some peeps about turrets and objects in general (doors/gates) and I thought about the idea of them taking burning damage. Most real life objects would definitely be affected by fire/burning so I thought it might make sense and change up the game play. What do you all think?

I think if they coded stuff to be burned, it would break the system maybe. I bet all DOTs use a very similar set of code, and making objects able to burn, may inadvertently make them susceptible to all other DOTs.

I am pretty sure if they can make dredge unable to be blinded they can make structures unable to take every condition other than burning. This would be a decent change and might help a bit especially because structures can’t get out of burning fields so it would be easy to stack up the duration on them.

I mean I mostly think this would be great against turrets as one added thing to balance them out.

Turrets are made of metal. They transfer heat, but are not exactly “burning”. Only thing that could happen is melting while placed in fire field.

This is a good idea to bring more balance to the turret engi. At the moment the turrets are unkillable for condi classes and this makes the engi very strong.

I understand the whole realism aspect of DoT’s affecting objects. But I am one of those people who are strongly against making them immune to condition damage. That includes bleeds, confusion, torment etc.

I really like this idea and I don’t think it would be unrealistic.

Turrets on the outside maybe be immune to burning but there have to be fancy working innerparts. Just think of the ammunition in gun turrets or the oil in the flame turrets…. heating up the outside of the turret would cause the stuff inside to heat up and ignite.

Talking about realism, I don’t think a good amount of the engineer’s skills (rocket boots, AUTOMATIC TURRETS, air supply drops, etc.) belong in any type of medieval/fantasy game to begin with.

I’d have no problem with them being affected by all conditions, maybe it doesn’t have to damage them directly, but have some kind of effect on them.

Turrets should suffer from all conditions, have a long cool down, and a lot less HP.

I’m not a fan of turret engis, for me personally it’s a cheese build that needs to be wiped. That’s not because I can’t deal with it (eventually, takes a long time to remove them though), I just don’t like the mechanic.

Its funny how all sorts of classes have problems with turrets.

Dps classes all have a problem because they dont have enough sustain, because of net turret CC’s and high enemy bunker stats.

bunkers all have a problem by not having enough dps to ‘kill’ an engi wich makes turrets go off cooldown very often.

Supporters are generally bad in 1v1 scenarios. But versus a turret engi, both of the above are true.

You need high sustain versus a turret engi +high damage (aka what d/d ele was before the might nerf)

The ONLY way currently to beat engis is to outrotate them. Outrotating depends on being able to communicate quickly and efficiently (TS for example) And in general understand how the game is played.

Being in an organised party, outrotating engi’s shouldnt be the hardest thing in the world. Unless you have stuff that turret engis counter. thiefs vs 2 turret engi enemies will always result in a 4v5 matchup for example.

The main issue here is that almost noone in the guildwars 2 community uses TS effectively dedicated in a 5 man group except a few ‘tryhard’ due to the sheer cassuallness of gw2.

Soloqueuing is impossible to win versus turret engis who have a team that knows rotation. As is 2/3 man queuing since you need everyone on point at the right times to rotate to a win.

This is the current spot why turret engi’s need some sort of nerf. Yes its beatable if your organised. But if the brunt of players arent organised, that would mean PvP versus a turret engi with the brunt of players is just no fun.

And here i am not even talking about newbies just entering who see this, and seriously cant do anything at all about it.

Skillcaps should be balanced on all levels, not just the pros.

Turrets should be susceptible to critical hits, not condition damage ROFL.

Nah critical hits I don’t think is a good idea. I like the idea of burning though since not everyone can apply that. I do believe out rotating is the way to go if they have 1 turret. It’s pretty OP I have to say if entire team needs to either build for it or rotate specifically for it. Just my 2 cents.

Turrets are immune to CC while producing stupid amounts of it, immune to critical hits, immune to conditions, do way more damage and have more health than any other player AI, on top of that they even regenerate health. How is that balanced?
Conditions are supposed to be the biggest counter to engineers, it’s cool to be “realistic” and all (not really) but they should still have a counter.

I like the idea. This could also employ the development of new siege in WvW, such as trebs that launch something similar to greek fire.

Why would we buff burning? Did we not learn our lesson already on how strong burning already is?

Also, turret’s base defense is fine. Making them susceptible to conditions would require a massive HP buff, otherwise a warrior could walk up, drop a fire field, and turrets are gone with 0 counterplay or skill involved. Turret builds might be a problem right now, but making turrets useless isn’t the solution either.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

greek fire.

Is that some kind of jelly for your genit…? Apply two layers for maximum benefits.

Bhawb.7408:

Why would we buff burning? Did we not learn our lesson already on how strong burning already is?

Also, turret’s base defense is fine. Making them susceptible to conditions would require a massive HP buff, otherwise a warrior could walk up, drop a fire field, and turrets are gone with 0 counterplay or skill involved. Turret builds might be a problem right now, but making turrets useless isn’t the solution either.

You mean like an elementalist’s dragon’s tooth can nearly wipe out a necro’s minions?
Here’s the counterplay: spread your turrets out and put some thought into the placement so one AOE doesn’t clear them.
Also, an engineers turrets’ HP is pretty similar to a necro’s minions ( 3 of the minions actually have less HP than every turret) while the minions DO NOT get immunity to CC, conditions, critical hits, or get to regenerate health.

Yes, you don’t nerf turrets to spite them for ANet making Minions awful. You can spread turrets out all you want, the professions that currently have access to burning have it on very large AoE abilities that are going to hit turrets that are placed within range of fighting, all that spreading them out does is increase how much mindless spam it takes to finish them off.

And no, turret’s base HP is similar to minion HP, however minions get 50% HP which throws all non-bone minion HP values above the highest turret HP. Also any minion build includes at least high regen uptimes and Transfusion, you can also mix in Renewal sigils for a fair bit of healing. That is all besides the real point though: why use MM as a point of balance when MM is absolutely awful right now? MM and Turret engi strength should meet in a middle point, along with nerfs to their passive uses and buffs to actives. Burning accomplishes none of this, it just makes turrets worse in teamfights, makes the builds that are already really strong stronger, and doesn’t address any real issues.

Just crit and burning/chill would be more than enough. The rest of conditions wouldn’t really make any sense.

Anyway, as a staff ele, they’re not really a problem.

If it was only burning what’s the point of that? They should suffer from all conditions so every class has the same footing in the match up, not just classes who have access to lots burning.

Bhawb.7408:

Yes, you don’t nerf turrets to spite them for ANet making Minions awful. You can spread turrets out all you want, the professions that currently have access to burning have it on very large AoE abilities that are going to hit turrets that are placed within range of fighting, all that spreading them out does is increase how much mindless spam it takes to finish them off.

And no, turret’s base HP is similar to minion HP, however minions get 50% HP which throws all non-bone minion HP values above the highest turret HP. Also any minion build includes at least high regen uptimes and Transfusion, you can also mix in Renewal sigils for a fair bit of healing. That is all besides the real point though: why use MM as a point of balance when MM is absolutely awful right now? MM and Turret engi strength should meet in a middle point, along with nerfs to their passive uses and buffs to actives. Burning accomplishes none of this, it just makes turrets worse in teamfights, makes the builds that are already really strong stronger, and doesn’t address any real issues.

I compare them to make the point that turrets are levels above any other classes AI skills. So yes, buffing minions along with ranger’s spirits to the level of engi turrets would “solve” this (creating a whole mindless AI metagame), or just nerf turrets to the same level as those. Which do you think would be more publicly accepted?
For that 50% hp buff on minions, the turrets get a 30% damage reduction, damage buff and self-healing, along with immunity from crit and condi. Which would you say is worth more?
The 2 most damaging turrets have 1,500 effective range. If they are strategically set, there’s no aoe skill in the game that can hit them and pressure the point reliably at the same time.
Also i’m not saying turrets should only be affected by burning, i’m saying that ALL conditions should have some sort of hindering effect on them or just straight up damage them. Then, condition builds would have a better chance to counter the engi like they are supposed to.

Sabre.8627:

I compare them to make the point that turrets are levels above any other classes AI skills. So yes, buffing minions along with ranger’s spirits to the level of engi turrets would “solve” this (creating a whole mindless AI metagame), or just nerf turrets to the same level as those. Which do you think would be more publicly accepted?

Who cares about public acceptance? The “public” doesn’t decide game balance, and they certainly don’t get to decide that an entire sub-set of builds shouldn’t be good just because they don’t like them.

Sabre.8627:

The 2 most damaging turrets have 1,500 effective range. If they are strategically set, there’s no aoe skill in the game that can hit them and pressure the point reliably at the same time.

You can’t place the turrets that far off the point unless you want to spend 30s to setup every time you swap points, and accept the fact that a large percentage of the time your turrets will be out of range. They are immobile, so you need their max range to include anywhere the enemy could be hitting you from, or you don’t have a very good coverage.

Sabre.8627:

Also i’m not saying turrets should only be affected by burning, i’m saying that ALL conditions should have some sort of hindering effect on them or just straight up damage them. Then, condition builds would have a better chance to counter the engi like they are supposed to.

Conditions are a really strong counter to turret engi, they can only remove 2 conditions every 15s, and then whatever they get from runes and sigils, which is garbage removal.

Loboling.5293:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

greek fire.

Is that some kind of jelly for your genit…? Apply two layers for maximum benefits.

Greek fire is written about extensively as sort of a myth, but one that could have been explained if certain fanatics didn’t destroy the Library of Alexandria and other historical records of the time.

The legend goes that the Greeks had some kind of chemical weapon that set fires that were so intense they could burn down entire villages and temples to ash in short periods of time. There’s a Steve Berry book (historical thriller stuff) that has a fictitious Central Asian dictator who unites the southern part of the former Soviet Union into a totalitarian state that uses Greek Fire and biological weapons, threatening to conquer the Middle East and end the Western wars and expand her territory.

It’s actually a pretty scary thought if the myths were true. It is a myth for a reason tho.

Bhawb.7408:

Sabre.8627:

I compare them to make the point that turrets are levels above any other classes AI skills. So yes, buffing minions along with ranger’s spirits to the level of engi turrets would “solve” this (creating a whole mindless AI metagame), or just nerf turrets to the same level as those. Which do you think would be more publicly accepted?

Who cares about public acceptance? The “public” doesn’t decide game balance, and they certainly don’t get to decide that an entire sub-set of builds shouldn’t be good just because they don’t like them.

Sabre.8627:

The 2 most damaging turrets have 1,500 effective range. If they are strategically set, there’s no aoe skill in the game that can hit them and pressure the point reliably at the same time.

You can’t place the turrets that far off the point unless you want to spend 30s to setup every time you swap points, and accept the fact that a large percentage of the time your turrets will be out of range. They are immobile, so you need their max range to include anywhere the enemy could be hitting you from, or you don’t have a very good coverage.

Sabre.8627:

Also i’m not saying turrets should only be affected by burning, i’m saying that ALL conditions should have some sort of hindering effect on them or just straight up damage them. Then, condition builds would have a better chance to counter the engi like they are supposed to.

Conditions are a really strong counter to turret engi, they can only remove 2 conditions every 15s, and then whatever they get from runes and sigils, which is garbage removal.

I think the developers do care about public’s opinions? After all, those are their customers. I’d also bet that a good amount of balance changes have been made because of players’ opinions and feedback.

I’m not saying the engi should place turrets 1,500 away from the point, but having that much effective range gives them a lot of options. Most good AOE’s have what? 300 radius or less? If a turret is chilling even 500 range away from the point, most aoe damage won’t pressure the engi and turret at the same time.

And condition damage is good against a turret engi yeah, but it still takes ages to kill them and the turrets are basically invulnerable to you. You take heavy damage and cc from the turrets while you hope that your condi damage is enough to cut through nearly 30k HP fast enough. That’s if the engi doesn’t decide to kite or LOS you.

Lupanic.6502:

This is a good idea to bring more balance to the turret engi. At the moment the turrets are unkillable for condi classes and this makes the engi very strong.

And THIS is why you are struggling and why the forum is so full of Turret hate.

Inherently you and others do not know how to deal with it.

You should not be trying to kill the turrets in 90% of cases, even LESS as a condi user.

Condi users are actually stronger than zerkers vs turret engi’s because they can more easily defend themselves on cap via toughness, blocks and blinds.

Turret engis are not easily killed as condi either, the turrets still ‘do their thing’ and it is situational for you to get out of their LoS while being able to still attack that engi. E.g. the rocket turret will still hit you unless you dodge every 4 seconds, never mind what else comes your way, you only have so many blocks etc before you are unable to condi down the engineer.

If there is a turret engi in the other pug you can kiss your match goodbye as they will likely camp mid and force you to play around it (which someone will always try and take the engi on thus lowering your numbers). If there is 2 engi turrets, don’t even bother in a pug -.- unless they are terrible, which usually isn’t the case when the AI carries them.

There are new problems too with stronghold. Engi turret builds are just camping the middle, as there is nowhere to ‘rotate’ out to when you need that resource. Any one build that can lockdown a point like that without breaking a sweat is too strong.

It is pointless saying ‘l2p’ as it is a problem that purely rewards sloppy play and punishes anyone who isn’t expert or specifically built to counter them and this has been a problem for a while for a lot of classes.

Pyriel.4370:

Turret engis are not easily killed as condi either, the turrets still ‘do their thing’ and it is situational for you to get out of their LoS while being able to still attack that engi. E.g. the rocket turret will still hit you unless you dodge every 4 seconds, never mind what else comes your way, you only have so many blocks etc before you are unable to condi down the engineer.

If there is a turret engi in the other pug you can kiss your match goodbye as they will likely camp mid and force you to play around it (which someone will always try and take the engi on thus lowering your numbers). If there is 2 engi turrets, don’t even bother in a pug -.- unless they are terrible, which usually isn’t the case when the AI carries them.

There are new problems too with stronghold. Engi turret builds are just camping the middle, as there is nowhere to ‘rotate’ out to when you need that resource. Any one build that can lockdown a point like that without breaking a sweat is too strong.

It is pointless saying ‘l2p’ as it is a problem that purely rewards sloppy play and punishes anyone who isn’t expert or specifically built to counter them and this has been a problem for a while for a lot of classes.

So your whole point in essence, L2P? But it shouldn’t be said? Hell okay.

Expertise isn’t required, a BRAIN is required.
People complain about braindead builds and end up playing braindead with ANY builds.

I personally don’t see why objects cannot be effected by all DoT’s. Undead bleed and get poisoned, so they must rationalise it some how.

The way I see it, bleeding doesn’t necessarily mean losing blood, it could just mean losing something vital, such as oil in machines, or buildings could lose structural capacity. Poison could be different against different targets, it could be simple poison vs fleshies, but acid against objects. And I see no reason why burning cannot effect objects.

So really, I personally think all DoT’s should effect objects.

Rin.1046:

I personally don’t see why objects cannot be effected by all DoT’s. Undead bleed and get poisoned, so they must rationalise it some how.

The way I see it, bleeding doesn’t necessarily mean losing blood, it could just mean losing something vital, such as oil in machines, or buildings could lose structural capacity. Poison could be different against different targets, it could be simple poison vs fleshies, but acid against objects. And I see no reason why burning cannot effect objects.

So really, I personally think all DoT’s should effect objects.

Exactly what I was thinking.

GrandHaven.1052:

Pyriel.4370:

Turret engis are not easily killed as condi either, the turrets still ‘do their thing’ and it is situational for you to get out of their LoS while being able to still attack that engi. E.g. the rocket turret will still hit you unless you dodge every 4 seconds, never mind what else comes your way, you only have so many blocks etc before you are unable to condi down the engineer.

If there is a turret engi in the other pug you can kiss your match goodbye as they will likely camp mid and force you to play around it (which someone will always try and take the engi on thus lowering your numbers). If there is 2 engi turrets, don’t even bother in a pug -.- unless they are terrible, which usually isn’t the case when the AI carries them.

There are new problems too with stronghold. Engi turret builds are just camping the middle, as there is nowhere to ‘rotate’ out to when you need that resource. Any one build that can lockdown a point like that without breaking a sweat is too strong.

It is pointless saying ‘l2p’ as it is a problem that purely rewards sloppy play and punishes anyone who isn’t expert or specifically built to counter them and this has been a problem for a while for a lot of classes.

So your whole point in essence, L2P? But it shouldn’t be said? Hell okay.

Expertise isn’t required, a BRAIN is required.
People complain about braindead builds and end up playing braindead with ANY builds.

My point is that saying l2p is not a legitimate way to deal with this problem as it is not really a l2p issue unless you are part of an expert team or have builds specific to countering turret builds.

Sure there are inherent hard counters but having to actually make a composition or take an entire team coordination to take down a cheap and easy AI build is too far. A team build or match build should not have to be specific around one class build.

Simply put, turret engi is overpowered and those turrets need a nerf as the skill ceiling for it is the floor, in which it is easily able to steamroll more skilled opponents who just aren’t specifically built for it or know how to specifically deal with it at a non-competitive level.

Either way turret engis are more problematic in stronghold as we have seen, where they camp the middle resource point and lock out the other team. You cannot ‘rotate away’ as there is nothing to ‘rotate away too’.

This is a video game involving magic and we are going to use reality to make balance adjustments. Anything that does damage should damage a turret period. It’s stupid that it doesn’t. Why does burning affect spirit weapons? How do you burn a spirit? Do people not see the ridiculousness of such arguments.

Rym.1469:

Turrets are made of metal. They transfer heat, but are not exactly “burning”. Only thing that could happen is melting while placed in fire field.

Metal would still take damage from fire though, so being affected by burning isn’t going to break your immersion.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

How about the effectiveness of celestial eles and engis? They are steamrolling the big tournaments, not the turret engis.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

Nice to know

@Royal

Cele Ele is being pushed out of the meta by medi guards. Shoutbow is more op currently.

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

@Royal

Cele Ele is being pushed out of the meta by medi guards. Shoutbow is more op currently.

Erm… I don’t think Shout bow is remotely more OP than Celestial Engineer. o.O Maybe a little tankier, but Celestial Rifle engi can CC like a MFR and deal quite a bit of damage. Maybe not as “teamy” but Celestial Engineer is still pretty kitten OP.

And regardless, many would argue Shoutbow and Meid guardian are a OP too, doesn’t really mean celestial rifle doesn’t need toned down, because they really do. #NoPowercreep

Josh Davis.6015:

… turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

OP has a name!

Thanks for chiming in though!

making balance changes based on whiney kids feedback is fail

turret engies are fine – only those who don’t know how to fight them cry

there is a reason no one plays them competitively – think about that before you nurf them anymore

Superform.1067:

making balance changes based on whiney kids feedback is fail

turret engies are fine – only those who don’t know how to fight them cry

there is a reason no one plays them competitively – think about that before you nurf them anymore

That’s really not true. Two of them can be a very unreasonable thing to have to deal with in a single match. One, you might have some grounds to your argument. But also, the reason people want them nerfed goes a bit beyond effectiveness and has a bit to do with both easy of play and how much is passive as well as the effectiveness. Not to mention 2+ the clutter just looks bad on the developers.

That said, Cele Rifle is still worse IMO.

The turrets need to self destruct once the Eng leaves it’s max range or at least 1200r

Vieux P.1238:

The turrets need to self destruct once the Eng leaves it’s max range or at least 1200r

No no no, it’s the Engie who needs to self destruct if he leaves a max range of 1200 from his turrets.

How about something like:

Power Tethering:

While within range of turrets, the engineer will take a small amount of damage when a turret takes damage.

-or-

Remote Backfire:

When a turret is destroyed, causes 1/2 second Daze to the owner.

-or-

Overheating:

Turrets build up heat while in combat, if they remain in combat for 5 seconds, they vent heat and become disabed for 3 seconds.

Be very careful how you nerf this build.

Already there’s barely any condition clear, stun break and the build is immobile.

Frankly having turrets auto destruct when an engineer moves to far away is plenty.

Why do they have to be careful when they nerf a build that you can play half afk? Turret engineers are freaking out because they might have to actually start participating in matches to make an impact on them.

Maybe there are some other builds that are over powered at the moment but at least the people actually have to do something. Cele engis and eles are very powerful but they are also a lot more difficult to play than an eng who drops his turrets around a point then runs around like a madman

Royal.2693:

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

How about the effectiveness of celestial eles and engis? They are steamrolling the big tournaments, not the turret engis.

the tournaments arent feeling the need to ban cele eles or engis. banning turret builds is becoming a thing.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

So these are the “plans”, does that mean we will see the changes to be implemented no earlier than next year? Sorry but why is taking so long to nerf such huge problematic and game breaking build, not mentioning other balance issues? This should be a priority if you and we want to see PvP competitively successful, i thought the balance team is separated from other tasks in ANet, what are they doing all the time when no balance updates are being seen for months?

I am sorry to act like an unpatient kid but this is something i do not understand and it would be awesome to explain the process you guys have with the balancing, as it just seem to take ages to do something and when something is done badly we must wait for half a year for a fix? Is it hard to code the changes to the game, is it hard to test it? I think community would appreciate to participate in alpha tests of future balance changes to make it faster and give relevant feedback.

If you are worried that any fast balance changes will destroy other popular specs, i would rather see that then seeing the same broken thing for months, if there are no alpha tests where community can test changes why not pull out balance changes every two weeks to the game, we have test ladder, test stronghold, lets test balance no? And then take a longer break only when big tournament is being played or when ranked season starts (if ever) so people can adapt before it. It would be so fun to test every two weeks new combinations of skills and specs and have such variety and give feedback on what have gone better and what is worse. And i do believe people would be more satisfied with such thing. Why is it not reality?

Nice weekend to you too!

Superform.1067:

making balance changes based on whiney kids feedback is fail

turret engies are fine – only those who don’t know how to fight them cry

there is a reason no one plays them competitively – think about that before you nurf them anymore

I guess you will have to learn keybinds after nerf.

Burning damage on wooden objects sounds cool. Turrets aren’t wooden though. I don’t personally have an issue with turret engis either. Being that I play cele ele, shoutbow war, and medi guard most often, cele engi is the only build that really irritates me. The insane damage output on those rifles along with the cc is painful. Turret engi’s are really only useful when they have their turrets up, and even then you can lay waste to them if you have a power aoe build.