Guild Wars 2

I’m of the opinion that although nerfing ele or making boon stripping more reliable would be very progressive, I think however there are a lot more problems involved with those types of changes as opposed to just tweaking celestial ammy.

In the current state Eles and Engies abuse the hell out of celestial. But the argument something is balanced because few builds benefit from it is a fallacy.

The way I see it, Balance patches are to few and far between for classes to suffer with. If changes are to be made, I think it’s in everybody’s best interest to find the most efficient and simple way to enforce balance. That being said, I think it’s in our benefit that few builds rely on celestial and make it easier to balance around.

IMO the problems that stem from these builds is the power vs the survivability. It’s the same reason why Dire is not an amulet, we cannot allow something that lives for so long have that much out put. True a lot of this is caused by the might stacking issues, but in most builds this is not really an issue except when paired with certain amulets.

(Is also the TL;DR) Suggestion for balance:
In mind that we need to be simple not to hurt other builds and leave them in a crummy state due to slow development of balance. I think we should remove either of the following: “Healing power”, OR “Condition damage and Ferocity” stats from Celestial. This will create enough of a shave for any class that abuses the amulet while still keeping them relevant and without hurting the associated classes.

I noticed that this thread really didn’t go on too much about the fact that engineers ARE very overpowered due to the amulet as well. At this point in time, a VERY strong team comp could easily be comprised of 5 celestial amulets, you could have d/d ele d/d ele rifle engi, rifle engi, and war, all cele. You could even do a number of other combinations and be unstoppable, you don’t even need to worry about plus-ing into the correct matchups, because with celestial EVERY matchup is a good matchup.

Cele ele is great team support, great bunker, great damage, great condi, great CC, fantastic mobility, unstoppable 1v1, good 2v2 great midfight.

My necro that I have 3000hrs on will consistently lose 1v1 to both cele eles and cele engineers that have only played it for 20hrs.

What I honestly suggest is GET RID OF CELESTIAL AMULET, why? you may ask, let me show you.
Positives of suggestion:

• no changes would have to be made for pve as celestial would only be taken out of pvp.
  *cele engineer will again have problems actually killing things like necromancers, the more counters something has the more balanced it is.
  *group sustain healing and damage will take a nose dive making people who play bunker guard come back to the game.
  *A LOT of buffs came to ele in the feature patch, they would be good, but not INSANE by using Valkyrie

The alternative, keep it but nerf mightstacking:
*wouldn’t effect the still overpowered cele engineer
*would take a long time to be approved by WvW dev teams
*would take a long time to be approved by living story teams
*cele eles would still have ultra mobility with ridiculous tanking strength

I know that many of you out there only started playing these classes, cele ele and cele engi and cele war, and have felt their effectiveness and hope that they will NOT be nerfed or taken out. However, at this point in the competitive scene, your team must be comprised of 3 or more individuals with celestial amulets to be even moderately successful. Since there are no counters it is whoever plays the cele builds the best that will be the best and hence, abjured and absurd will win every single week.

PLEASE REMOVE THIS BROKEN AMMY FROM PVP.

I want to chime in the things being said here that need to be fixed. I agree with the original poster and the little OP-List further down.

I find that the problems really start, when good players play it out against each other, taking their classes to the max. That’s when miss-balancing starts becomming obvious.

Take away, OUT of PvP:

Perma invisibility, in particular in combination with class stacking.
Long durations of immunity or invinciyilty
Effects on weopon change for classes that basically don’t have cool downs between weapon changing (eles(elements?) and engis(kits?)
Perma interruption or fearing, in particular with class stacking
Crazy might stacking!
Crazy every class can do everything! This breaks the mechanics! Some classes lose the basis of their existance this way.

Invisibility = GOD MODE
Perma interruption until one is dead (something like in under half a second) = GOD MODE
Perma regeneration/heal/purify = GOD MODE

The problem is, ArenaNet is implementing GOD MODEs in all kinds of ways into the game mechanics, saying its fun for the player that has it, then tries to find work arounds around it’s broken game mechanics, and it’s all just a pile of mess.

If a damage class + mesmer can smash a full blown bunker guardian in two seconds, something is broken here in the mechanics. Oh, sorry, the broken part is the guardian that has become obsolete, because while he can only bunker, other classes can do that better + more!

From my perspective, the game is fun atm for eles, engis and mesmers, warriors can be very strong, too strong actually, but at least one sees where they are, mostly, … I could write myself into rage and frustration here about the many shortcommings in ArenNets PvP-mechanics, in particular because I’d really like to enjoy playing my guardian (spirit weapons? crap, hammer? crap, conditions? crap, healing? soso, cleansing? okay, boons? oh no, better not, that is just turned against you, …) … a guardian with over 2000 points in conditions is still totally crap in conditions, fire is ridiculous…..losing track. sorry.

have fun.
take care.

I don’t play ele to much, but play against them and ya they are a challenge to run up against. They are similar to a engy where they can do a lot of everything. Unless you want only one char class to have all the same abilities and do all the same things the adjustments or nerfs should be limited.
good luck

Celestial stats is just fine. You do realize only specific class can actually run that stats right?

Ele elemental attunement/arcane 8 could use some duration nerf. Atm, the boon duration is incredibly high (6.5 secs of prot, and regen).

For engis, i think an extra 1-2sec cd for kit switching could help with their problem a lil bit.

Blueboy, you have no idea what you’re talking about, 1 person with cele can heal a group through anything, rotate anywhere, win any 1v1.

Firebird.8324:

Blueboy, you have no idea what you’re talking about, 1 person with cele can heal a group through anything, rotate anywhere, win any 1v1.

i’m pretty sure others here agree that aoe heal is one of the least important issue ele has. their perma regen and prot are the main problems (and there’s also their perma vigor, but that will kill other ele build if anet decides to change it). Tons of condi removal and great at both passive and active defensive skills makes them the most versatile bunker in the game. Lots of aoe skills to make it even better. Even when running zerk amulet, i feel quite tanky compared to other class out there.

Why is nerfing other Ele builds through nerfing vigor an issue? Literally every class that had permanent vigor had their uptime slashed in half! Every build that those classes could run were nerfed because all nearly all PvP builds run vigor! Elementalist is the only exception! Well goshdarn it my frands this should be the first thing they need to change! Bring Elementalist vigor uptime in line with the rest of us! Who do they think they are with their permanent vigor uptime! Fancypants!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Again Just because a few builds benefit from something dosent mean it isn’t a factor of imbalance. Especially if those are the builds in debate for being OP.

As for Ele vigor I do agree that there should be a nerf esp since guard and Mes are my fav classes I feel a little a little jipped. But I recognize that zerk eles kind of rely on that vigor. Having less sustain than glass Mesmers and no stealth like it’s glass counter parts, and don’t even get me started on the amount of punishment I can take on a zerk war or guard lol…

However considering the lack of set up burst eles have I do think the nerf mayyy be justified. But rather limiting imo.

Ele nerfs-
Maybes:
Elemental attunement from 5 to 3 seconds protection.
Elemental Shielding from protection to regen. Or reduced from 3 to 2 seconds.
Renewing stamina ICD from 5 to 10 seconds.
Frozen Aura duration reduced from 7 to 5 seconds.
Reduce Signet of Restorations heal to 163, Increase scaling on active from 0.5 to 1.0 to promote active use.

Certain?:
Drake’s breath reduction from 3 to 1.5 seconds.
Frozen burst remove the chilling, keep the blast finisher effect
Stow Lightning Whip fix.
Small cast time to Updraft.

Buffs:
Increase cast time from the leap from magnetic leap from 1 to 1/2 seconds.

Just an idea. I’m assuming some will believe ele’s are fine as they are but with the insane boon up-time as well as consistent dmg/cc/mobility and team support say otherwise.

Daishi.6027:

Again Just because a few builds benefit from something dosent mean it isn’t a factor of imbalance. Especially if those are the builds in debate for being OP.

As for Ele vigor I do agree that there should be a nerf esp since guard and Mes are my fav classes I feel a little a little jipped. But I recognize that zerk eles kind of rely on that vigor. Having less sustain than glass Mesmers and no stealth like it’s glass counter parts, and don’t even get me started on the amount of punishment I can take on a zerk war or guard lol…

However considering the lack of set up burst eles have I do think the nerf mayyy be justified. But rather limiting imo.

This is also what i thought. Ele has a very low base hp, and a long utility skill cd. Without their dodge, you can sneeze at them and they will fall. They also lack true blocking skill, or stealth. Their elemental shielding can wear off really quickly in a team fight, making them completely vulnerable without dodges.

Engi has a bigger problem with their knockdown, condi spam, and the burst heal, but this is not a thread for that.

Arken.3725:

Ele nerfs-

Certain?:
Drake’s breath reduction from 3 to 1.5 seconds.
Frozen burst remove the chilling, keep the blast finisher effect
Stow Lightning Whip fix.
Small cast time to Updraft.

You might as well remove dagger from ele main wpn

BlueBoy, did you make an ele then find that you are an AMAZING player by using something absurdly OP and are you extremely scared that if it gets nerfed you might actually have to have skill to be good?

Firebird.8324:

BlueBoy, did you make an ele then find that you are an AMAZING player by using something absurdly OP and are you extremely scared that if it gets nerfed you might actually have to have skill to be good?

i’m afraid to tell you the truth, but my main in pvp is a mesmer. Lemme guess, you’ve only faced/played dd ele. Have u ever played d/f lightning rod or s/d fresh air? Pls share your opinion abt ele again after you try those builds.

Ther is a hudge issue in might stacking ability…I agree.
Reducing the number of stack per blast finisher is however not the solution as it would impact other classes that have few blasts.
Solution is to remove blasts finishers from ele (and engies).(how many ?…let’s avoid a hudge change first and let’s remove 2 to 3)…if not sufficient…let’s continue.
No class should be able to climb to more than 15 stack by itself on long term.
In top of that blasts can be used to clean co dition which is also op when comparing to other prof…
So simple….one must be ele not to see this option.

Kicast.1459:

Ther is a hudge issue in might stacking ability...I agree.
Reducing the number of stack per blast finisher is however not the solution as it would impact other classes that have few blasts.
Solution is to remove blasts finishers from ele (and engies).(how many ?...let’s avoid a hudge change first and let’s remove 2 to 3)...if not sufficient...let’s continue.
No class should be able to climb to more than 15 stack by itself on long term.
In top of that blasts can be used to clean co dition which is also op when comparing to other prof...
So simple....one must be ele not to see this option.

What meta engi build stacks 20+ stacks of might? So many players seem to be ignorant in this reguard. Just because they are able to do it doesn’t mean its a thing.

I would rather see a nerf to might stacking and buffs to boon hate before taking a strong class and making it inferior. Shave the might and buff other specs. The meta could use a shakedown anyway.

BlueBoy.1236:

Am i the only one who see the problem comes from strength runes? 45% duration increase with an extra 5%dmg to it seems a lil bit op compared to other runes.

Without their perma 20+ might stack, i dont think warr and ele will be at their place now.

you don’t need strength runes to stack might…most wars don’t even run them anyway

Roe.3679:

I would rather see a nerf to might stacking and buffs to boon hate before taking a strong class and making it inferior. Shave the might and buff other specs. The meta could use a shakedown anyway.

this is the exact thing all celestial ele’s are saying.

phantaram and many other ele players (ones that aren’t too blinded by their profession bias) have made it painfully obvious that the issue here isn’t celestial/might stacking (although they play their part in the equation) because if it was, every build that was designed to stack might would be dominating like celestial ele is.

it’s been made clear that the issue is primarily that of ele as a profession, with celestial/mightstacking only playing a minor role, if it was any different the same gear combination of celestial + hoelbrak + battle sigils would make every profession using it overpowered, which obviously isn’t the case. suggesting otherwise is simply ignorance.

ele is 75% of the issue. celestial/mightstacking is only 25% of it. ele as a profession needs to be nerfed.

Archaon.9524:

BlueBoy.1236:

Am i the only one who see the problem comes from strength runes? 45% duration increase with an extra 5%dmg to it seems a lil bit op compared to other runes.

Without their perma 20+ might stack, i dont think warr and ele will be at their place now.

you don’t need strength runes to stack might…most wars don’t even run them anyway

you actually do.

hambow or axe/sword do need str or hoelbrak.

sword shout goes for soldier, but they already have a decent amount of boon duration from shout trait line.

Hey Hey brah, like I always say, “If you hate it, play it”. Thats how I became an ele and I love it. If everybody played this way we would all be eles and no one would be OP

sinject.4607:

Roe.3679:

I would rather see a nerf to might stacking and buffs to boon hate before taking a strong class and making it inferior. Shave the might and buff other specs. The meta could use a shakedown anyway.

this is the exact thing all celestial ele’s are saying.

phantaram and many other ele players (ones that aren’t too blinded by their profession bias) have made it painfully obvious that the issue here isn’t celestial/might stacking (although they play their part in the equation) because if it was, every build that was designed to stack might would be dominating like celestial ele is.

it’s been made clear that the issue is primarily that of ele as a profession, with celestial/mightstacking only playing a minor role, if it was any different the same gear combination of celestial + hoelbrak + battle sigils would make every profession using it overpowered, which obviously isn’t the case. suggesting otherwise is simply ignorance.

ele is 75% of the issue. celestial/mightstacking is only 25% of it. ele as a profession needs to be nerfed.

I don’t play cele ele.

I think it’s more clear that the issue is celestial amulet and might stacking when you have a high percent of players (and all eles) in top teams running these set ups. I do think there are some ways that d/d eles could be toned down, especially in their sustain, and they generally have a lot of tools in their tool belt.

But that being said, I enjoy fighting d/d eles and if they get nerfed to oblivion I’ll be sad about it. Changes need to be strategic to not ruin the class, you can’t just say it’s mostly the ele class so Anet should drop the nerfhammer on them, because as far as I can tell there isn’t much evidence that such a statement is true.

Anhomedog.7968:

Hey Hey brah, like I always say, “If you hate it, play it”. Thats how I became an ele and I love it. If everybody played this way we would all be eles and no one would be OP

Lol I know former hambows and dps rangers now main cele ele. I think what’s more fun than “hate it, play it” is murdering it. But the cleansing, regen, toughness, might stacking of eles are unreal. They can easily beat condi and dps builds. I can’t think of a hard counter to cele eles. I know cele engies are a pain but luckily, there’s an easier engie build I see people play (turrets)

significant vigor and might stacking nerfs, and slight celestial nerf and we’re good.

It isn’t the sustain that’s the issue with cele eles. It’s the damage output.

I have to disagree with the assertion that it’s all Ele – there was a good analysis about it in one of the Balance forum threads that explained it pretty well. I mean, I think this point of view has a point, Ele certainly has a lot going for it right now because of it’s design, but nuking the class from orbit misses the point and will probably render other Ele builds useless as a byproduct.

I mean, here’s how it looks to me. Pre-patch, nobody gave one single iota of a kitten about Elementalist. It was garbage tier – you played it because it was funny and enjoyable to press lots of buttons, not for reals. Just watch Phanta’s play back then, every Ele could only ever aspire to Fresh Air Scepter and it was still not good enough to compete.

Suddenly – patch comes in, with a few changes for Ele, including a new blast finisher for D/D, with redone runes and amulet, and all of a sudden, Ele becomes death incarnate. Hmm… a mystery. Coincidentally, D/D’s strength has always been Might Stacking while playing with hyper defensive traits and stats. When daphoenix was running around 1v10ing people in WvW – the build was Soldier’s or Cleric’s, the objective – live long enough and your might stacks will outsustain your enemy. Same kitten that happens now. Only now there’s things that make Might Stacking even better than before and an amulet that perfectly synergizes with a class that uses everything no matter what it does. Ele got buffed and in that same patch new equipment came out that’s pretty much picture perfect for D/D’s strengths.

Based on what Ele was pre-patch and what it is now, it seems logical that the culprit lies somewhere in the changes done in that patch, not all the things that nobody had any problems with until now. Example: nerfing EA trait could help mitigate the build, but it buttkittens every other Ele build too, including those that aren’t a problem. You have to attack the source of the disease, not the symptoms. Else we get a new Dumbfire. Dumbfire was always the problem – but Anet nerfs a ridiculous amount of other stuff and then ends up nerfing Dumbfire anyway months down the line. A waste of everyone’s time.

To exaggerate a bit, Cele d/d Ele now feels as if there was a new rune set that had 500% extra damage on attacks done from stealth. Gee, I wonder which class will be most OP with that rune set?!

TainoFuerte.8136:

/snip/

I think this accurately summarises what needs to happen to eles. They weren’t a problem prior to runes and amulet change, so the root of the problem should be there.

Cenzuo.6328:

TainoFuerte.8136:

/snip/

I think this accurately summarises what needs to happen to eles. They weren’t a problem prior to runes and amulet change, so the root of the problem should be there.

I think Taino’s post also accurately describes why you don’t want to just nerf elementalists by referring to dhuumfire. Condi necro’s lost a lot of utility and other bleeds because of dhuumfire, and after it was nerfed too, the class is worse off for it. Let’s avoid these roller coaster nerf sessions and try to address the root cause.

Except doing profession-wide nerfs(amulets/sigils) is most certainly not the way to do it. Again, only 2/3 professions really abuse this. Why screw over other classes who don’t?

Arken.3725:

Except doing profession-wide nerfs(amulets/sigils) is most certainly not the way to do it. Again, only 2/3 professions really abuse this. Why screw over other classes who don’t?

Aren’t those the same professions who are recognized as being top tier right now? If 5/6 professions don’t use these based off your own post, would changing those things even effect them?

Arken.3725:

Except doing profession-wide nerfs(amulets/sigils) is most certainly not the way to do it. Again, only 2/3 professions really abuse this. Why screw over other classes who don’t?

Because no one else other than the abusers run this?

Sure I guess we hurt a few fun niche/gimmick builds but these never see the light of day in the meta anyways and rarely are these anyone’s “Main spec”, and frankly those select few losing out is a lot better than a whole tug of war and beating around the bush for MONTHS.

Engie alone is a pretty evident sign that the amulet is the issue. Besides once something is done about Ele, who do you think is next on the bucket list?

Then we have the exact same thread with similar arguments for another “X” amount of months with nothing done.

The way I see it:

A. A-net spends a TON of time, and resources (so programming time) finding a way to tweak every build that abuses the current status quo, only to land with issues on the builds that don’t need to be touched, which means MORE time and resources… all the while we need to sit with the crummy status quo. <- Everyone loses.

or

B. Cut the head off the snake, few minor injuries to niche builds, if something becomes unusable due to these nerfs it’s easier to buff minor things without hurting other specs. Either way the development takes months but this will at least be less painful even for everyone involved. <- Only those who cannot live without these imba specs loses.

Roe.3679:

Arken.3725:

Except doing profession-wide nerfs(amulets/sigils) is most certainly not the way to do it. Again, only 2/3 professions really abuse this. Why screw over other classes who don’t?

Aren’t those the same professions who are recognized as being top tier right now? If 5/6 professions don’t use these based off your own post, would changing those things even effect them?

I suppose, I mean it would be a more immediate fix to the problem instead of waiting for those professions to receive proper adjustments.

Edit: I mean i’m all for removing Celestial from play as I think Master-of-all amulets cringe me so. Proper risk/reward and all.