Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

They still build around that one trait because it is their ONLY reliable defense to conditions unlike other classes aside from mesmer that have multiple defenses against conditions *cough*Necros*cough*.

Also as for suggesting that I look at your posts on builds and traits I am very reluctant to do so simply because of one post you made about asking for a nerf to mesmers. Then used a video in which you got steamrolled by a well known mesmer player while you were clicking your skills in a build that you said was a “super awesome insane damage yet tanky build”. It was a video that showed nothing but poor play and nothing to do with things requiring a nerf. So when you come to ask for a nerf to this trait I am very reluctant to think that it is actually OP based off of past experience from your posts.

HAHAHAHAHA. Okay, yeah—this argument is over. Zel, you lose.

jportell.2197:

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

^ Please show us how you lost a fight to an engi specifically because of this trait.

I’d prefer a video from the engineer’s perspective. That’d be more impactful, I think.

Well at this point I will take any video because right now it seems to be necros whining or a warrior saying they can’t CC the engi to burst them down once again the only CC that AR makes engis immune to is Immob/cripple/… They can still be dazed stunned launched knocked down knocked back etc etc. And warriors do that well.

True. I often spend my superawesome25% health or less being knocked around so most of my 25% traits that proc become useless. Nevermind the Mesmer interrupt build. I’ve been burst down during the Flesh Golem’s knockdown more times than I can count. I seem to need to use my only stunbreaker to avoid dying in the initial chain fear.

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

HGH < Enhance Performance

This build:
- boon strip with Elixirs
- condition removal with Elixirs
- damage with Elixirs
- 33% less damage for 7.5 seconds at 50% hp
- condition ignore at 25% hp
- +50% protection duration
- 3 stacks Might on med kit equip
- Swiftness on med kit equip
- Vigor on med kit equip
- Reflect (2 seconds) on med kit equip

Build it, run it, and then come talk to me about how “asinine” it is.

It should be hard not to look at a skill when a post about has reached 200+ comments in around two days. I’m not saying nerf but it needs to be examined more closely by the dev’s.

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

he did take a kit, the med kit. With kit refinement it does Magnetic Aura which give projectiles reflection

Grackleflint.4956:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

They still build around that one trait because it is their ONLY reliable defense to conditions unlike other classes aside from mesmer that have multiple defenses against conditions *cough*Necros*cough*.

Also as for suggesting that I look at your posts on builds and traits I am very reluctant to do so simply because of one post you made about asking for a nerf to mesmers. Then used a video in which you got steamrolled by a well known mesmer player while you were clicking your skills in a build that you said was a “super awesome insane damage yet tanky build”. It was a video that showed nothing but poor play and nothing to do with things requiring a nerf. So when you come to ask for a nerf to this trait I am very reluctant to think that it is actually OP based off of past experience from your posts.

HAHAHAHAHA. Okay, yeah—this argument is over. Zel, you lose.

This is the problem with forums. It is not about win or lose. I’m discussing a skill I hope the devs to look at.

Zelulose.8695:

Grackleflint.4956:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

They still build around that one trait because it is their ONLY reliable defense to conditions unlike other classes aside from mesmer that have multiple defenses against conditions *cough*Necros*cough*.

Also as for suggesting that I look at your posts on builds and traits I am very reluctant to do so simply because of one post you made about asking for a nerf to mesmers. Then used a video in which you got steamrolled by a well known mesmer player while you were clicking your skills in a build that you said was a “super awesome insane damage yet tanky build”. It was a video that showed nothing but poor play and nothing to do with things requiring a nerf. So when you come to ask for a nerf to this trait I am very reluctant to think that it is actually OP based off of past experience from your posts.

HAHAHAHAHA. Okay, yeah—this argument is over. Zel, you lose.

This is the problem with forums. It is not about win or lose. I’m discussing a skill I hope the devs to look at.

You have said several times in this thread that you want the trait nerfed/reworked or you want other classes to get something like this.

I said I was fine with this as long as engineers got all that nifty stuff that other classes get like full wiping of conditions in the heal skill, passive removal through a kit and a trait, Getting it removed because we got regen, or getting a condition cleared because we used a tool belt skill….

So you tell me are you okay with cleansing burst from healing turret clearing all conditions, removing one condition for every Xsec we have medkit equipped, conditions being transferred to our turrets (elixir F gives them swiftness so why not?!)

So that then all classes can get an immunity at 25% from conditions.

Or can you just accept that when it comes to bunkers maybe 25% health engis (they have so many 25% health traits) are meant to be a pain in the neck to kill. I can even see how it fits into the theory of how engineeers are supposed to work. We always have one more nifty little trick up our sleeves that forces you to adapt to us.

The same way people have adapted to the condition heavy meta. We are making other adapt when they fight us…

Zel : This is the problem with forums. It is not about win or lose. I’m discussing a skill I hope the devs to look at.

The thing is, you seem to often discuss traits/skills that you want the developers to look at. You aint more important then any other players and this particular trait aint that important too, if it was that annoying and that insurmountable, there would be a flood of thread, just like the thieves when they were one shoting people.

You are taking a pick on it because it is one that causes problem when you play your necro/mesmer and it is far more easy to ask for a nerf then to try and be better. You aint here talking about it because you want the game to be more balance, to make the game a better place, you are trying to make a path for your necro to perform better.

You say its not about win or lose. I am 100% confident that i you were a warrior, you wouldnt be talking about that skill. You lost to an engi and you are angry about it, we understand.

Now get better and kill all the engis

darkchicken.8692:

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

he did take a kit, the med kit. With kit refinement it does Magnetic Aura which give projectiles reflection

I was pwned.

Eviator.9746:

darkchicken.8692:

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

he did take a kit, the med kit. With kit refinement it does Magnetic Aura which give projectiles reflection

I was pwned.

But the dual sigils of nullification? They share the same ICD…. Why take two?

Eviator.9746:

darkchicken.8692:

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

he did take a kit, the med kit. With kit refinement it does Magnetic Aura which give projectiles reflection

I was pwned.

haha it happened, when i first read it i didnt see it and was about to make the same comment :P

jportell.2197:

Eviator.9746:

darkchicken.8692:

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

he did take a kit, the med kit. With kit refinement it does Magnetic Aura which give projectiles reflection

I was pwned.

But the dual sigils of nullification? They share the same ICD…. Why take two?

Low crit rate wants better odds with two 60& chances to proc, for better chances to remove 2 boons with tossed Elixirs. Don’t know if they can ever both proc, haven’t run the build since my tests on the 6/25 patch day.

Having two sgils doesn’t increase your chances anymore than one. And even when you toss the elixirs it will remove two if it procs off of one weapon. You are basically just running with one weapon that has no sigil that would be better off with an on swap or on kill sigils since they have separate cooldowns.

jportell.2197:

Having two sgils doesn’t increase your chances anymore than one. And even when you toss the elixirs it will remove two if it procs off of one weapon. You are basically just running with one weapon that has no sigil that would be better off with an on swap or on kill sigils since they have separate cooldowns.

Incorrect.

Attack hits + Proc 60% or Proc 60% > Attack hits + Proc 60%

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Yes but you are saying that it is essentially like rolling 2 six sided dice instead of one. It doesn’t increase your odds. With two six sided dice you have a 2/12 chance of getting x number which in the long run is the same as 1/6…. See what I am getting at here? Anyways this thread is about automated response and while your build may have that trait in there it isn’t the most ideal automated response build and I am still 100% sure this trait will not be nerfed especially since other classes (warriors and kinda mesmers) are getting their condition removal buffed.

Zelulose.8695:

The trait, Automated response Stops all conditions at 25% hp from being applied. Given so many classes play condition builds, this one trait can make almost all condition builds useless vs engineers. It also allows them to troll in a map. Three condition players may not even be able to take down an engineer with this trait on.

My suggestion, please give the trait a cool-down or allow other players to remove conditions as well as the engineer can.

I agree, in order to balance this we must give out a class immunity to physical damage below 25% HP. Only way to balance it properly.

Taym.8326:

Zelulose.8695:

The trait, Automated response Stops all conditions at 25% hp from being applied. Given so many classes play condition builds, this one trait can make almost all condition builds useless vs engineers. It also allows them to troll in a map. Three condition players may not even be able to take down an engineer with this trait on.

My suggestion, please give the trait a cool-down or allow other players to remove conditions as well as the engineer can.

I agree, in order to balance this we must give out a class immunity to physical damage below 25% HP. Only way to balance it properly.

Exactly. Say, idk… Ele or Ranger. Okay Ranger. If Barksin was 100% less physical damage AND immune to stuns/knockdowns (opposite of immobilizes/snare conditions, more physical based) under 25% hp, people would be FURIOUS. Its a bigger deal now because more people are plying with dagger as a necro, more people are playing condies these days, and there are actually more people using AR since some of the OP face roll specs were nerfed… Its not thakittens gotten better, its just more used now, but that doesn’t make it not OP as hell… Also, 5 pages in 2 days, and you’re trying to defend it… Nothing gets that kind of attention lol… If it NEVER saves you guys, let it get nerfed and continue to not rely on it?

Wait so your point is that it wasn’t OP before conditions became the meta. But now that conditions are the meta its OP? Bad argument.
Once again engis running this trait were never viewed as OP before 6/25 and even attacks that apply condition damage do some direct damage. And ANET won’t make rangers or eles immune at 25% because they have tons of ways to mitigate direct damage (ranger gets protection on dodge) and they both have good passive ways to clear conditions. Engis passive condi clear is this which isn’t even a condi clear it is just an immunity to new conditions. If it worked on all conditions on the engineer to start with. I could see your point.

Also faceroll specs haven’t been nerfed at all. Infact the new necro faceroll spec was just introduced and with it we saw an influx of engis running this trait. It is a hard counter to the meta (which isn’t a bad thing) with a strict low health requirement and doesn’t grant immunity to conditions that were already applied. It puts engis in a conundrum when they get to 25% health because usually their only condi removal is a healing which puts them back over 25%…

Do you see what we (other people in this thread) are getting at?

No, I said it wasn’t used as much, get your head out of the sand… As I’ve said about 5 times in this thread, it harms power melee cap closing far greater than it effects conditions because an engi can gain perma vigor/swiftness while keeping cripples on enemies while immune to even utility conditions… (And I was referring to Engi faceroll builds…)

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Yes but you are saying that it is essentially like rolling 2 six sided dice instead of one. It doesn’t increase your odds. With two six sided dice you have a 2/12 chance of getting x number which in the long run is the same as 1/6…. See what I am getting at here? Anyways this thread is about automated response and while your build may have that trait in there it isn’t the most ideal automated response build and I am still 100% sure this trait will not be nerfed especially since other classes (warriors and kinda mesmers) are getting their condition removal buffed.

That’s incorrect. A single probability with the same chance is unequal to multiple probabilities with the same chance. It’s the same logic behind buying multiple lottery tickets.

In the spirit of keeping this thread on course, I would not be surprised if Automated Defenses receives an internal cool-down as it disables the ability to use many skills, traits, or combinations of both (Leg Specialist and Savage Leap come to mind) that’re specifically used for generating a condition. Hard countering should always be balanced against a duration and/or intensity, and this one has neither.

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Yes but you are saying that it is essentially like rolling 2 six sided dice instead of one. It doesn’t increase your odds. With two six sided dice you have a 2/12 chance of getting x number which in the long run is the same as 1/6…. See what I am getting at here? Anyways this thread is about automated response and while your build may have that trait in there it isn’t the most ideal automated response build and I am still 100% sure this trait will not be nerfed especially since other classes (warriors and kinda mesmers) are getting their condition removal buffed.

That’s incorrect. A single probability with the same chance is unequal to multiple probabilities with the same chance. It’s the same logic behind buying multiple lottery tickets.

In the spirit of keeping this thread on course, I would not be surprised if Automated Defenses receives an internal cool-down as it disables the ability to use many skills, traits, or combinations of both (Leg Specialist and Savage Leap come to mind) that’re specifically used for generating a condition. Hard countering should always be balanced against a duration and/or intensity, and this one has neither.

But it wasn’t viewed as OP at all before… And now that condition spam is how it is working more than anything it is? Kind of weird don’t you think? Even when I ran my condition specs (Mesmer on death/traits with clones etcs.) or a pre-buff condition necro. I didn’t care if I went against an engi that had this trait. For one I knew that they wouldn’t kill me and they either have the option to heal up making them susceptible to more conditions or eat my marginal but still there direct damage. Purposefully sitting at 4K health to prevent condition damage is walking a very fine line and if someone else rolls through this fight you bet yourself I am going to heal up because even if I have to eat some more conditions I will be safer than if I have to deal with a direct damage dealer at that low of health. Also I don’t think anyone would care if a class became immune to direct damage at x% health because just like endure pains they will straight drop to conditions. Certain classes have unique ways of mitigating damage.

Engi’s only really have this way of mitigating conditions especially at low health. The other condi clears are limited in number unlike consume conditions or ether renewal.

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Yes but you are saying that it is essentially like rolling 2 six sided dice instead of one. It doesn’t increase your odds. With two six sided dice you have a 2/12 chance of getting x number which in the long run is the same as 1/6…. See what I am getting at here? Anyways this thread is about automated response and while your build may have that trait in there it isn’t the most ideal automated response build and I am still 100% sure this trait will not be nerfed especially since other classes (warriors and kinda mesmers) are getting their condition removal buffed.

That’s incorrect. A single probability with the same chance is unequal to multiple probabilities with the same chance. It’s the same logic behind buying multiple lottery tickets.

In the spirit of keeping this thread on course, I would not be surprised if Automated Defenses receives an internal cool-down as it disables the ability to use many skills, traits, or combinations of both (Leg Specialist and Savage Leap come to mind) that’re specifically used for generating a condition. Hard countering should always be balanced against a duration and/or intensity, and this one has neither.

But it wasn’t viewed as OP at all before… And now that condition spam is how it is working more than anything it is? Kind of weird don’t you think? Even when I ran my condition specs (Mesmer on death/traits with clones etcs.) or a pre-buff condition necro. I didn’t care if I went against an engi that had this trait. For one I knew that they wouldn’t kill me and they either have the option to heal up making them susceptible to more conditions or eat my marginal but still there direct damage. Purposefully sitting at 4K health to prevent condition damage is walking a very fine line and if someone else rolls through this fight you bet yourself I am going to heal up because even if I have to eat some more conditions I will be safer than if I have to deal with a direct damage dealer at that low of health. Also I don’t think anyone would care if a class became immune to direct damage at x% health because just like endure pains they will straight drop to conditions. Certain classes have unique ways of mitigating damage.

Engi’s only really have this way of mitigating conditions especially at low health. The other condi clears are limited in number unlike consume conditions or ether renewal.

We Engineers have multiple reliable methods to remove conditions and cleanse conditions in addition to the ability to ignore them. All condition clears are in fact limited in number for all classes and this isn’t anything but a good thing. It provides game balance making condition builds viable. The argument that one is limited in shedding conditions is as short sighted as it is self-defeating; arguing balance yet embracing imbalance. The very build I posted in this thread exemplifies a build that hard counters conditions even before Automated Response, and when tweaked for using Lyssa runes has a second condition clear on elite.

Put simply I’ve come to see Automated Response as excessive, but not nearly as OP as many who’re using this thread as a tissue to wipe their tears on are attempting to make it seem. A cool-down similar to Armor Mod would thus be appropriate, though a duration would not be necessary because as you mentioned, the Engineer will heal above 25% out of self preservation, and thus put the trait on cool-down.

ronpierce.2760:

No, I said it wasn’t used as much, get your head out of the sand… As I’ve said about 5 times in this thread, it harms power melee cap closing far greater than it effects conditions because an engi can gain perma vigor/swiftness while keeping cripples on enemies while immune to even utility conditions… (And I was referring to Engi faceroll builds…)

Cause we have soooo many traits. If i had to judge from this thread, we should have like 50 points to spend on alchemy alone.
vigor, protection when disabled, regen on kits or cleansing formula: choose two. They are all on the alchemy tree.
to get speedy kits you must spend 10 points on the last tree. This prevents you on getting both elixir-infused bombs and the trait to make their explosion bigger (and bombs are quite bad without it, so it would be useless).
Also, cripples. If you use the shield, you haven’t got any of them on the main weapon. So either you get a block or an immobilize/cripple.
So you have to rely on kits for crippling and immobilizing – not bombs, you haven’t even traited them properly – or getting the personal battering ram for the toolbelt skill. And all of this assuming that the enemy can’t even heal himself of a cripple, won’t dodge them, won’t use swiftness, won’t leap or pull or use any CC skills – because they work, aside from fear – and the opponent isn’t using a ranged weapon. And obviously if you’ve got all those 4 cripples you won’t have either a full condi cleanse or elixir r (but you may have a stunbreaker if you got the elixir gun). This also means that you will have died already to the conditions, even with the trait, so this wall of text doesn’t even apply, especially if you hadn’t specced for vit or soldier. And in soldier’s case, you would also be really bad at doing damage.

Multiple reliable methods? Okay
Transmutation is never noticed even if it does proc.
Healing Turret is Two…. Not bad.
Cleaning 409 is one per elixir and they usually don’t take elixir C if they have 409 its a redudancy and a waste of a utlity slot.
Med Kit antidote
Super Elixir which may be a bug that it removes a single condition when it lands.

Beyond that we have no transfers (Necros, Rangers,) No passive clears (eles, guards.) And no removal on use of profession skill such as warrior cleansing ire or mesmer shattered conditions (which still isn’t that great) And none of our condi removals double as stun breaks. (traited ele cantrips, necro plauge signet etc)

See why this trait exists. Because if it got an internal cooldown or anything of the sort it would become useless its like okay “I’m at 25% health I am immune to conditions for 3s oh crap it has a 20s cooldown” That’s a lovely grandmaster trait now isn’t it? At that point even mesmer shattered conditions which is one of the least used condition removal traits in the game becomes better….

Okay, I literally never play an Engi… EVER and I threw this together just to show you what I mean that it makes life hell on melee classes. I really don’t care about the argument about conditions, because guess whakittens already being addressed, it’s getting nerfed… Regardless if “not many” people run it, it can be very over the top for a bunker-set up engi. Sure if you’re trying to do damage and have like 14k hp and no toughness, yeah its not going to do you much good, but that’s not what the problem even is… Its how powerful it can be in bunker situations. I’ve spend no more than 2 hours EVER on an engineer, I read over a few skills and I already knew the gist of how they worked, I made this, and I was playing rank 30+ people who mained the given classes… Video inc, its processing.

Velron.3729:

ronpierce.2760:

A bunker engi can run 0/0/0/30/10 and have perma Swiftness, Vigor, immune to conditions under 25%. Just… thought I’d throw that out there. That’s not hard to achieve, and yes it’s pretty mindless… And people STILL refuse to recognize this effects melee classes that rely on conditions to close gaps far greater than the kitten condi spams everyone is so set on. Get over the condi spam its going to get nerfed…

I play a full melee Warrior in tournies and have absolutely no trouble with Engineers. They don’t have any stability, stun/daze them.

@ Ron Pierce. Maybe you should get together with this guy on how to deal with an engineer. He is a full melee warrior and he can deal with guys running this trait easy peezy….

Also since when are bunkers supposed to be easy to kill? You guys are pretty much asking for bunker engis to be a free kill… Right now that is pretty much what guardians are in this meta.

jportell.2197:

Multiple reliable methods? Okay
Transmutation is never noticed even if it does proc.
Healing Turret is Two…. Not bad.
Cleaning 409 is one per elixir and they usually don’t take elixir C if they have 409 its a redudancy and a waste of a utlity slot.
Med Kit antidote
Super Elixir which may be a bug that it removes a single condition when it lands.

Beyond that we have no transfers (Necros, Rangers,) No passive clears (eles, guards.) And no removal on use of profession skill such as warrior cleansing ire or mesmer shattered conditions (which still isn’t that great) And none of our condi removals double as stun breaks. (traited ele cantrips, necro plauge signet etc)

See why this trait exists. Because if it got an internal cooldown or anything of the sort it would become useless its like okay “I’m at 25% health I am immune to conditions for 3s oh crap it has a 20s cooldown” That’s a lovely grandmaster trait now isn’t it? At that point even mesmer shattered conditions which is one of the least used condition removal traits in the game becomes better….

If you were paying attention your argument invalidates itself in both its lack of understanding of the class and of inherent game balance. I need will not attempt argue rationally with the irrational.

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Multiple reliable methods? Okay
Transmutation is never noticed even if it does proc.
Healing Turret is Two…. Not bad.
Cleaning 409 is one per elixir and they usually don’t take elixir C if they have 409 its a redudancy and a waste of a utlity slot.
Med Kit antidote
Super Elixir which may be a bug that it removes a single condition when it lands.

Beyond that we have no transfers (Necros, Rangers,) No passive clears (eles, guards.) And no removal on use of profession skill such as warrior cleansing ire or mesmer shattered conditions (which still isn’t that great) And none of our condi removals double as stun breaks. (traited ele cantrips, necro plauge signet etc)

See why this trait exists. Because if it got an internal cooldown or anything of the sort it would become useless its like okay “I’m at 25% health I am immune to conditions for 3s oh crap it has a 20s cooldown” That’s a lovely grandmaster trait now isn’t it? At that point even mesmer shattered conditions which is one of the least used condition removal traits in the game becomes better….

If you were paying attention your argument invalidates itself in both its lack of understanding of the class and of inherent game balance. I need will not attempt argue rationally with the irrational.

This entire thread has been filled with nothing but the irrationality of players saying “OMG he is at low health but I can’t kill him because he took a 30pt trait to become immune to my only source of damage and now he won’t die as fast as I want”

The engi planned their build out. to deal with the situation they knew they were likely to come accross in PVP. Now I know that fear counts as a condition and as such it is harder for a necro to C/C the engi but they also have a warhorn for that very reason or a flesh golem knock down which they aren’t immune to.

When people were ticked of being one shotted by thieves “Get more Toughness was the response.”
Then people got toughness and people griped about how hard bunkers were to kill and the healing was too much. As such the healing was nerfed and defensive runes as well.
Then spam happy condition slingers became the meta. And when called OP the response by them was “Pack a condi clear build around the meta!” We are doing that and now it is being called OP because we found a way to deal with the spam happy condition mancers, Condi engis, bleed thieves, trap/bleed rangers, and burn/bleed warriors. …. It is required to be nerfed….

Several people have said after the patch “Learn to play” “Focus the necro down he is so squishy” “Bring condi removal” We built for your meta and now the same people saying to build for the meta are screaming for the only decent direct counter to be nerfed. That is irrationality in and of itself; Telling people to adjust to a certain way of things working and then when they do screaming that something should be done about it.

lol this has become rather long :|

Kitten that 1 engineer who punked the OP and caused ramdoms to notice a trait that has always been there! Kittens ;p

While we’re talking about “balance”, how about that Deceptive Evasion, it should have a 10s internal cool down

google.3709:

lol this has become rather long :|

Kitten that 1 engineer who punked the OP and caused ransoms to notice a trait that has always been there! Kittens ;p

Punked the OP…. Watch out it was prolly Ashton Kutcher! lol.

Whenever I used AR, it didn’t do a thing against melee classes.

Warrior: Has several movement skills and swiftness. They just leap at me and kill me quickly because they run power builds and lol at condition immunity. That or they whip out the rifle and shoot me to death.

Guardian: Has leaps and shadowsteps and also swiftness. Also they have good area denial skills and condition cleansing, meaning that you can’t permanently disable them.

Thief: Has a lot of shadowstep abilities as well as leaps, swiftness, and a movement signet. Also they have stealth, meaning that you can’t disable them unless you get lucky with tossing grenades around.

Ranger: rarely runs a pure melee spec. They just shoot you in the back when you run.

Mesmer: Has teleportation and stealth, letting them close the gap quickly. Besides, clones pursue you like mad when shattered.

Elementalist: This is the most mobile class in the game. Enough said.

Necromancer: Rarely runs a pure melee spec. They have pulls and teleports, and also they can just pop into Death Shroud to hit you with Life Blast no matter what they are running.

Engineer: Just as OP as the other engineer everyone claims is OP.

Like I said before: AR never saved me once. If the complaint is that a pure melee spec can’t catch up to you, then I’d blame the build more than anything else. Once while trying out different builds for my pre-patch necro, I tried out a chill heavy build. It didn’t do anything special, except against one warrior I fought that didn’t bring a longbow or rifle for some reason.

I have a hard time coming up with the specs nowadays that would be stopped by AR completely. The only ones I can come up with are rabid terrormancers and rabid mesmers.

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

not to mention 2x of the same sigil.

gullible is spelled wrong in the dictionary.

plz guys

this Zelulose guy( the OP) and Sorow are the only ones writing the same all the time and dont wanna read your answers – i would not wonder when its the same guy

from the beginning ppl told them automated response dont work like they write – but they dont wanna listen they just write their nonsense over and over again

insane what gaming culture has become – someon fail in game and have some serious l2p problems so he goes to the forum and trie to get nerfed something with spamming it over and over again and hope the devs hear it when he spam it often enough

for this thread here the only answer would be: “Nerf the Forum”

thx

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Yes but you are saying that it is essentially like rolling 2 six sided dice instead of one. It doesn’t increase your odds. With two six sided dice you have a 2/12 chance of getting x number which in the long run is the same as 1/6…. See what I am getting at here?

Wow…

Wow.

What you wouldn’t hear on the internet.

Romek.4201:

plz guys

this Zelulose guy( the OP) and Sorow are the only ones writing the same all the time and dont wanna read your answers – i would not wonder when its the same guy

from the beginning ppl told them automated response dont work like they write – but they dont wanna listen they just write their nonsense over and over again

insane what gaming culture has become – someon fail in game and have some serious l2p problems so he goes to the forum and trie to get nerfed something with spamming it over and over again and hope the devs hear it when he spam it often enough

for this thread here the only answer would be: “Nerf the Forum”

thx

What are you talking about, man?
It’s you guys who are spitting always the same sentence to justify a stupid and skill-less trait.

What you guys have to address isn’t why AR should be on the engineer with stupid arguments regarding poor condition removals (which is false, by the way), but why a skill that grants 100% automatic immunity to conditions when under 25% HP should be in a competitive game, which is something none has addressed it yet.

That skill is broken as any extreme trait which doesn’t allow counterplay is. If I run a condition build, I have a chance against any profession. Even against an Elementalist with loads of condition removals. Even against a Necromancer, which cleanses all the conditions and send them back.
That chance does not exists on an AR engineer because it is designed stupidly.

It is automated, it grants 100% immunity and it doesn’t offer any chance to a condition build. Something like that shouldn’t not exists in a “competitive” game.
It’s not my fault if you’re so blind to see how stupid that skill is.

Even that, jportell, you are the last people in this forum I’d like to hear talking about balance. You’ve always been spoilt by the profession you’re currently playing and you really didn’t brought a real counter argument to why that skill exists.
I don’t care how poor condition removals on engineers are (which are not, anyway). If you think they needs better condition removals, then redesign that trait to make something less stupid, like removing 2 conditions every time they switch kit with 5s internal cooldown. Something that doesn’t grant complete immunity, something that is controlled by the player and something that allows counterplay.

same again – he dont even read what ppl write

sorrow.2364:

What are you talking about, man?
It’s you guys who are spitting always the same sentence to justify a stupid and skill-less trait.

Skill-less in that it doesn’t require a button activation to use. Not skill-less in the fact that it was planned for and built around.

What you guys have to address isn’t why AR should be on the engineer with stupid arguments regarding poor condition removals (which is false, by the way), but why a skill that grants 100% automatic immunity to conditions when under 25% HP should be in a competitive game, which is something none has addressed it yet.

More importantly is why should conditions builds for all classes be able to dominate the meta without a direct counter? The direct counter to bunker guards is more conditions (they will run out of removal soon enough). The direct counter to eles is good CC and knowing when to interrupt (ether renewal has an LOL cast time)

That skill is broken as any extreme trait which doesn’t allow counterplay is. If I run a condition build, I have a chance against any profession. Even against an Elementalist with loads of condition removals. Even against a Necromancer, which cleanses all the conditions and send them back.
That chance does not exists on an AR engineer because it is designed stupidly.

You know they have a carrion amulet which adds power to your build which is by the way a direct counter to an AR engineer, this is the same premise that a condition build is the good counter to every other bunker type in the game. (remember how massive amounts of AOE on your feet was the counter to backstab thieves?)

It is automated, it grants 100% immunity and it doesn’t offer any chance to a condition build. Something like that shouldn’t not exists in a “competitive” game.
It’s not my fault if you’re so blind to see how stupid that skill is.

Exactly it’s not supposed to offer a chance at a condition build hence the term DIRECT COUNTER. That doesn’t mean there is absolutely no counter to this build when we are at 25% health we are walking a fine line between surviving your condi spam or coming through and getting heartseeker hero’d or knockdown’d/100 brod also apparently an HGH engi can still roll through and hit us with grenade kit which when they are might stacked out the engi will hit us for about 1k with a grenade lob….

Even that, jportell, you are the last people in this forum I’d like to hear talking about balance. You’ve always been spoilt by the profession you’re currently playing and you really didn’t brought a real counter argument to why that skill exists.
I don’t care how poor condition removals on engineers are (which are not, anyway). If you think they needs better condition removals, then redesign that trait to make something less stupid, like removing 2 conditions every time they switch kit with 5s internal cooldown. Something that doesn’t grant complete immunity, something that is controlled by the player and something that allows counterplay.

I am the last person to talk about balance? Yay for the personal attacks. I defend mesmers because they lack significant meaningful condition removal while still being useful to their team. Engineers condition removal is right at the bottom with mesmers and warriors. Mesmers being the lowest at countering conditions.

This trait kicks in at 25% health which is meant to give breathing room and allow help to arrive if it is a straight condition damage engineer (they have no healing power or substantial toughness) even the damage from your scepter attacks should burn through him or a good knock down from that flesh golem. And once again this trait has already been adjusted. And you realize that your proposal at removing two conditions every 5 seconds through swapping kits on kitten CD would actually be overpowered when coupled with our healing skill (healing turret).
At least at 25% health we are stuck fighting for our lives while you are likely still at relatively high health with way less conditions on you than use because you can get rid of conditions more reliably than at just 25% health.

You have been defending the OPness of the necro condi spam meta since 6/25. And saying engineers have really good condition removal is equivalent to saying mesmers have which I have actually seen you say in a post. So yeah no sorry.

YuiRS.8129:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

Obscure One.4357:

jportell.2197:

So then why don’t people take 2 sigils of fire or air or one of each? Wait I know because they share an ICD and when one goes off you will have to wait just as long if you want the other to go off.

Correct.

This is not the issue I am speaking of. On the occasions I do crit I’m basically rolling two 6 sided dice instead of one. 3 or higher on either grants a proc, and because they share an ICD I will only ever be rolling both at the same time.

Exactly so why not just keep one and get a constant sigil, on kill sigil, or something of that sort….

Simple. It undermines the goal of the build and lessens the odds of making the most of it’s critical hits which serve the sole purpose of removing boons. This is a point aggravator designed to counter mid or far point bunkers or roamers that rely on boons and conditions, of which there are many.

Yes but you are saying that it is essentially like rolling 2 six sided dice instead of one. It doesn’t increase your odds. With two six sided dice you have a 2/12 chance of getting x number which in the long run is the same as 1/6…. See what I am getting at here?

Wow…

Wow.

What you wouldn’t hear on the internet.

Best part is the conviction with which he states his nonsense.

sorrow.2364:

What are you talking about, man?
It’s you guys who are spitting always the same sentence to justify a stupid and skill-less trait.

What you guys have to address isn’t why AR should be on the engineer with stupid arguments regarding poor condition removals (which is false, by the way), but why a skill that grants 100% automatic immunity to conditions when under 25% HP should be in a competitive game, which is something none has addressed it yet.

That skill is broken as any extreme trait which doesn’t allow counterplay is. If I run a condition build, I have a chance against any profession. Even against an Elementalist with loads of condition removals. Even against a Necromancer, which cleanses all the conditions and send them back.
That chance does not exists on an AR engineer because it is designed stupidly.

It is automated, it grants 100% immunity and it doesn’t offer any chance to a condition build. Something like that shouldn’t not exists in a “competitive” game.
It’s not my fault if you’re so blind to see how stupid that skill is.

Even that, jportell, you are the last people in this forum I’d like to hear talking about balance. You’ve always been spoilt by the profession you’re currently playing and you really didn’t brought a real counter argument to why that skill exists.
I don’t care how poor condition removals on engineers are (which are not, anyway). If you think they needs better condition removals, then redesign that trait to make something less stupid, like removing 2 conditions every time they switch kit with 5s internal cooldown. Something that doesn’t grant complete immunity, something that is controlled by the player and something that allows counterplay.

Something, what was mentioned in this thread like thousand times: wait with your condi burst for a moment, when engi has about 40% hp. And his dead, because he can’t clear all damage condis with longer duration. If you want to kill a bunker you should go full glass, that is how it’s balanced. If you’re not taking full glass canon, get an ally.

Necro 30/30/10/0/0 should easily kill engi bunker. You can easily get bleed, poison, tornment and burning traited. No bunker engi will cleanse all this condis and remain under 25% hp, because most of his cleansing skills heal him. Fighting ele would still be much harder, because of passive condi cleanse, like cleansing condis on regen apply. Ele is hard to kill, engi is meh for skilled player. If you can’t kill engi, who has no real passive condi cleanse, you’re bad player. That’s your problem. You’ve got several other problems, like refusing learning with help of other skilled players, and lack of ability to discuss on forum.

Divus.3175:

Something, what was mentioned in this thread like thousand times: wait with your condi burst for a moment, when engi has about 40% hp. And his dead, because he can’t clear all damage condis with longer duration. If you want to kill a bunker you should go full glass, that is how it’s balanced. If you’re not taking full glass canon, get an ally.

Necro 30/30/10/0/0 should easily kill engi bunker. You can easily get bleed, poison, tornment and burning traited. No bunker engi will cleanse all this condis and remain under 25% hp, because most of his cleansing skills heal him. Fighting ele would still be much harder, because of passive condi cleanse, like cleansing condis on regen apply. Ele is hard to kill, engi is meh for skilled player. If you can’t kill engi, who has no real passive condi cleanse, you’re bad player. That’s your problem. You’ve got several other problems, like refusing learning with help of other skilled players, and lack of ability to discuss on forum.

Yeah, try to do some silly theorycrafting to prove your points.
There are a video in this topic showing how AR is incredibly stupid and how it really hurts condition builds automatically, without the engineer to know what he’s doing.

We are not asking you how to counter AR, in case you didn’t noticed, we are just trying to make you notice how that skill is just stupid balance-wise, which is something you accurately ignored.

jportell.2197:

Skill-less in that it doesn’t require a button activation to use. Not skill-less in the fact that it was planned for and built around.

You don’t need to build around it. Be serious. You just need to invest 30 points in a traitline you would invest in anyway because of boon duration.

Other than that, this trait is essentialy a free brain-less counter to condition builds. The “brain-less” part is the problem.

jportell.2197:

More importantly is why should conditions builds for all classes be able to dominate the meta without a direct counter? The direct counter to bunker guards is more conditions (they will run out of removal soon enough). The direct counter to eles is good CC and knowing when to interrupt (ether renewal has an LOL cast time)

There are direct counters. Direct counter are called “condition removals”, not 100% condition immunity.

jportell.2197:

You know they have a carrion amulet which adds power to your build which is by the way a direct counter to an AR engineer, this is the same premise that a condition build is the good counter to every other bunker type in the game. (remember how massive amounts of AOE on your feet was the counter to backstab thieves?)

Nobody runs Carrion amulet.
It has really poor synergy with on-crit sigils and traits and, even with carrion amulet, the damage is still insanely poor.

Even if you were able to deal decent direct damage with a condition build, AR remains a terrible and stupid trait balance-wise.

jportell.2197:

Exactly it’s not supposed to offer a chance at a condition build hence the term DIRECT COUNTER. That doesn’t mean there is absolutely no counter to this build when we are at 25% health we are walking a fine line between surviving your condi spam or coming through and getting heartseeker hero’d or knockdown’d/100 brod also apparently an HGH engi can still roll through and hit us with grenade kit which when they are might stacked out the engi will hit us for about 1k with a grenade lob….

What in this game does not offer a chance against what they counter?
Your idea of “direct counter” is nice on a rock-paper-scissor level balance of a game, who has never been competitive. Ever.

Even when you are built around countering something, you don’t completely cancel what you’re countering, you are just lowering its effectiveness. AR does the former.

jportell.2197:

I am the last person to talk about balance? Yay for the personal attacks. I defend mesmers because they lack significant meaningful condition removal while still being useful to their team. Engineers condition removal is right at the bottom with mesmers and warriors. Mesmers being the lowest at countering conditions.

This trait kicks in at 25% health which is meant to give breathing room and allow help to arrive if it is a straight condition damage engineer (they have no healing power or substantial toughness) even the damage from your scepter attacks should burn through him or a good knock down from that flesh golem. And once again this trait has already been adjusted. And you realize that your proposal at removing two conditions every 5 seconds through swapping kits on kitten CD would actually be overpowered when coupled with our healing skill (healing turret).
At least at 25% health we are stuck fighting for our lives while you are likely still at relatively high health with way less conditions on you than use because you can get rid of conditions more reliably than at just 25% health.

You have been defending the OPness of the necro condi spam meta since 6/25. And saying engineers have really good condition removal is equivalent to saying mesmers have which I have actually seen you say in a post. So yeah no sorry.

Yeah, engineers have poor condition removals. Like mesmers and warriors. Every profession you play has poor condition removal, I see.

Are you sure I have been defending the OPness of Necros?

What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.

ronpierce.2760:

What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.

Give us the same dps of a tanky warrior and we can talk about it. Otherwise we’re just delaying our death by doing so. And it isn’t like we have either the armor or the hp of a warrior, anyway.

Going PVT already makes engineer hit like a wet noodle and it is like the only decent way to try bunkering with AR. You don’t kill anything, but at least you may be able to keep the point (until another power class arrives there, then you will die anyway – and this assuming that the first guy was fully specced into conditions and just that).
Using it in another spec means you either lack toughness or vitality. We have no on-demand protection, so we would take far too damage in the first case. And having low vitality means we would be killed by pre-existant conditions or normal attacks with ease – even with soldier’s equip and vit runes you’ve around 6600 hp, and you must stay below it to avoid getting condibursted into death immediatly.
But those are things i’ve already told and explained many times, and people just ignored them because they just want the trait nerfed, despite how it actually works in practice.
This thread is more about people wanting to faceroll everything alone with their specialized condition build than about balance.

ronpierce.2760:

What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.

That would actually be a buff! Full condi cleanse at 25% hp? we`re talking necro levels of op here

RaynStargaze.6510:

ronpierce.2760:

What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.

That would actually be a buff! Full condi cleanse at 25% hp? we`re talking necro levels of op here

No it wouldn’t… it’d be a clutch, just don’t blow your wad and wonder why you died… After that ran off, then they’d be fully killable for a whole window. I didn’t say I wanted the trait to be kittening useless, just not 100% uptime.

So from the looks of it about 2 people in this thread think AR is a problem? not gonna get the dev attention, time to move on, this is a non-issue