Guild Wars 2

Tone.2317:

I’ll take this more seriously when I see tournament engineers using this as a prominent build. There are so many trade-offs made to create this build that only excels in very specific situations.

It takes a lot, and entire build, to support the AR trait and make it effective against a specific class. That build, as provided above, would be relatively useless in team-fights, would get destroyed by anything other than rabid-condi builds, and would only prove effective in the small niche it was created for. Effectively, it is insanely effective provided the following scenario:

1.) You build around it. Yes, elixir C is building around it. (The skill does not see any usage outside of a buildset like this, I have yet to see it in ANY professional play.)

2.) You’re bunkering home point. Their home, or mid, would have enough movement through it that you’d get bursted by any power build.

3.) You’re fighting a necro. Yes, other classes utilized condition damage builds, but, the majority also easily have access to 5k damage needed to kill the engy. Rangers have pets/base damage, other engineers have access to bombs/flame/toolkit, Mesmers have mind-wrack, ect. Even then the Necro, if played, well, should be able to win in the long run (engy isn’t killing anyone).

4.) The necro doesn’t call in their roamer. Most Tpvp teams have a highly mobile roamer for the very purpose of creating 2v1s and taking points. You’re insane if you think they wouldn’t jump on this opportunity frequently.

5.) The team doesn’t decide to just send anything other than a Necro, pushes another point or maintains map control, or utilizes any other map action (orbs, treb, laser, bosses, ect).

If those conditions are met, you’re right, it is an amazing trait. But, you need a very specific set of situations, decisions, and silliness to make it that useful. I’ve played around with the trait, and I’ve fought other engys with the trait (as a condi-engy). Are there some condition damage 1v1s I won because of it; yes. Could I have won them with other builds; easily. Did I lose a lot of flexbility/utility/usefulness in the match and to support my team in general; absolutely.

tl;dr – This build requires very specific situations to be remotely useful that are easily countered by changing team play, or by utilizing ANY other class than necro. I’ll consider it OP when I actually see any “high-tier” engineers building around it.

This… this right here. Yes.

This thread is still going?

Oh don’t mind me.

Continue.

Your tears sustain me.

jportell.2197:

A bunker guard can survive against two DPS classes for quite some time and I mean quite some time especially when built/played right so can BM rangers (pet damage got nerfed not the bunkeriness of the build). If two condition classes can’t throw in a hard condition burst right at the start or when they see the engi is almost low it is bad team work and coordination. This trait exists as a hard counter to one build type and that build type is dominating this game mode more than any other (whats funny is other build types such as burst thieves when played right are still amazing). Aoe condition spam is the most mindless skilless thing occurring in this game. An engi running this trait is still not likely to survive long against two condition classes…. Show me a video of an engi just being immortal with this trait in a 1v2 or 3. Maybe then I will think it needs nerfed. I didn’t think it needed nerfed when I never even touched my engi and I wouldn’t think it needs nerfed even if i hadn’t started playing engi again since ANET completey bjorked mesmers. (Don’t see many of those running around anymore!)

You know how much direct damage a condition class is capable to deal?
You can see it in the video ronpierce posted. It’s about 100-200 damage per hit.
As ronpierce showed, you can tank the direct damage of a rabid condition damage profession by just sitting down there and let regeneration do the job for you.

What if the conditions professions were 2?
You don’t need any fantasy to realize what to do. Have regeneration on and drop medikits rythmically and enjoy your unkillable state.

What if the conditions profession were 3?
Use Super Elixir when recharged.

What you guys are failing to understand because of your gigantic bias and broken logic is that potentially permanent invulnerability to whatever thing you want does not belong to any game who wants to be called e-sports. No matter if you have to do three backward somersault, a prayer to the dark lord and a sacrifice of 3 liters of blood to get that invulnerability. It is still broken.

Why?
Because the counter is up to the caster itself, not the enemy.
Once the engineer is good enough to sit in that state indefinitely and outhealing your poor damage there is nothing you can do to counter that as a condition profession. Nothing.
It doesn’t matter how good you are, how you’re timing your interrupts or your dodges. You just can’t kill that engineer and you have to move on, period. This is what is broken.

Has it ever happened in Guild Wars 2? No.

Also, Mesmer unplayable?
Please, keep those jokes out of this topic.

sorrow.2364:

You know how much direct damage a condition class is capable to deal?
You can see it in the video ronpierce posted. It’s about 100-200 damage per hit.
As ronpierce showed, you can tank the direct damage of a rabid condition damage profession by just sitting down there and let regeneration do the job for you.

Actually, given how the raw damage of all skills inflicting condition(s) is also completely negated for some unexplainable reason, a pure condimancer is only able to damage an AR engi under 25% with either staff autoattack (yea, gl with that), scepter 3 (lol), death shroud auto atack (hits like a wet noodle in condi specs) and death shroud 4 (the main, and practicaly the sole ‘hardhitter’ skill).

sorrow.2364:

What you guys are failing to understand because of your gigantic bias and broken logic is that potentially permanent invulnerability to whatever thing you want does not belong to any game who wants to be called e-sports. No matter if you have to do three backward somersault, a prayer to the dark lord and a sacrifice of 3 liters of blood to get that invulnerability. It is still broken.

Gave me a chuckle.
You mention logic, but you fail to see there is none to start with. So let’s fight fire with fire.
Given all the people defending it, the trait must be fine as it is, so I, in return, I demand an ‘immunity to all damage when under 25% hp’ GM trait for the necromancers (since the necro is the sole class without any actual block/immunity/evade skills).
Because these kind of traits are subpar anyway (!), I am certain people won’t mind necs getting one of those. It’d complement their current arsenal of worthless traits perfectly.

sorrow.2364:

Also, Mesmer unplayable?
Please, keep those jokes out of this topic.

Some things apparently never get old around here.

Give engis passive condi transfers. A MM necro can effectively clear one condition every 2s (5 minions 1 minion every 10s the math is easy.) Please tell me why then with runes of melandru and this trait engis still die in a 1v2/3 against condition classes? Show me one where they are just absolutely unkillable… I beg you. What is funny is the only people that are screaming this needs nerfed are people that play necros (Ronpierce/Sorrow/Karlagrey) and others who don’t main engis have said they have absolutely no problem with it. For instance a warrior that said they run a full melee build that has no problem snaring an engi with this trait. Or condition mancers (you know the ones that have called ronpierce out) that also say they are having no issues.

Then we have the amazing video of RonPierce with this trait (no team utility no, no healing turret, med kit is laughable for group heals, and no larger radius for his bombs so that elixir infused bombs can actually do something for a team.) He dueled a “condition” necro… And the quotation marks are there because this “condition” necro was bleeding him for a whopping 87 per tick. That is def not a rabid or carrion amulet being used. My guess would be a shaman amulet. So this video “duel” was essentially him running around against a terribly built condition necro (I have seen condi mancers with no stacks of corruption doing about 100+per bleed tick easy and my engi with a shaman ammy and nothing in condition damage line does 75 per bleed tick.)

So please tell me more how this video was proof of a trait needing nerfed.

And he would have died if the opponent condi-bursted him one of the many times he was above the 25% treshhold – since there are times in the video when it happens with elixir C on cooldown – but i may assume his friend didn’t knew at all about the trait, thus neither how to counter it.
Even so, the fight could have been staged – exactly as the one with the engineer dying, since they already assumed it died on purpose. As i said before, either you hold accountable every video, or you don’t trust any of them.

And regarding the issue with the raw damage of skills inflicting conditions – if there is a bug, it should be fixed, and just that.

Yah.. Necro paying back time… Necro calling nerf to other class… Good jokes…

jportell.2197:

Give engis passive condi transfers. A MM necro can effectively clear one condition every 2s (5 minions 1 minion every 10s the math is easy.) Please tell me why then with runes of melandru and this trait engis still die in a 1v2/3 against condition classes? Show me one where they are just absolutely unkillable… I beg you. What is funny is the only people that are screaming this needs nerfed are people that play necros (Ronpierce/Sorrow/Karlagrey) and others who don’t main engis have said they have absolutely no problem with it. For instance a warrior that said they run a full melee build that has no problem snaring an engi with this trait. Or condition mancers (you know the ones that have called ronpierce out) that also say they are having no issues.

Then we have the amazing video of RonPierce with this trait (no team utility no, no healing turret, med kit is laughable for group heals, and no larger radius for his bombs so that elixir infused bombs can actually do something for a team.) He dueled a “condition” necro… And the quotation marks are there because this “condition” necro was bleeding him for a whopping 87 per tick. That is def not a rabid or carrion amulet being used. My guess would be a shaman amulet. So this video “duel” was essentially him running around against a terribly built condition necro (I have seen condi mancers with no stacks of corruption doing about 100+per bleed tick easy and my engi with a shaman ammy and nothing in condition damage line does 75 per bleed tick.)

So please tell me more how this video was proof of a trait needing nerfed.

You know why engineer still die when in a 1vs2/3 against condition classes? Because they heal, just like the guy who posted a video a couple of pages ago.

He took no damage at all when AR was on, then he made the incredibly stupid decision to heal back.
The mesmer stacked all the bleeds he had in the meantime, the engineer had no condition removal at all (good idea to bring no condition removal against a condition spec, but whatever) and then he died.

You know why people who are screaming this trait needs to be looked at plays Necros? Guess which profession is completely built to rely on conditions to be effective? I’ll give you an hint. It starts with “Necrom” and ends with “ancer”.
The survivability of this mysterious is tied to conditions (chill, weakness, cripple, blindness, fear), the control is all tied to conditions (fear, immobilized) and damage is tied to conditions (bleed, burning, torment and vulnerability).
Guess why the profession who is more hurt by AR is this unknown one.

Also, I don’t know what would change if the bleeds in the ronpierce video damaged for 140, or even 63746, instead of 87. The engineer still won’t get any damage at all.

Okie, if he is not dying, why don’t you finish him off with raw dams then as a Condition Builds? With only 4k less left and not heal at all, someone will die eventually, is it not? Using all your condition attacks while AR on is just plain stupid. If he heal, good for you, more and more conditions on you. If he is NOT heal, just beat them down with Raw Dams. Oh please don’t tell me a Necro can not put raw Dams enough to beat 4k less Engine down…

Stealth.9324:

Okie, if he is not dying, why don’t you finish him off with raw dams then as a Condition Builds? With only 4k less left and not heal at all, someone will die eventually, is it not? Using all your condition attacks while AR on is just plain stupid. If he heal, good for you, more and more conditions on you. If he is NOT heal, just beat them down with Raw Dams. Oh please don’t tell me a Necro can not put raw Dams enough to beat 4k less Engine down…

Or, maybe, if you bothered to read the topic you would know that this argument has been debunked multiple times.

Medikit allows to heal the engineer for 1k HP, giving a good amount of health back without going over the 25% hp barrier.

Also, I guess you’ve never played a conditionmancer.
All condition weapons hits with insanely low damage and they don’t scale with power at all (or, if they do, the scaling is unnoticeable). Scepter MH and dagger OH have the infamous record to never hit over 500 damage. The only skill which is capable to hit 1.2k damage is Feast of Corruption but, look at the irony, you need conditions on your target to do so!

They don’t work exactly like Grenade kit which deals also massive amounts of damage other than applying tons of conditions, you know…

sorrow.2364:

Stealth.9324:

Okie, if he is not dying, why don’t you finish him off with raw dams then as a Condition Builds? With only 4k less left and not heal at all, someone will die eventually, is it not? Using all your condition attacks while AR on is just plain stupid. If he heal, good for you, more and more conditions on you. If he is NOT heal, just beat them down with Raw Dams. Oh please don’t tell me a Necro can not put raw Dams enough to beat 4k less Engine down…

Or, maybe, if you bothered to read the topic you would know that this argument has been debunked multiple times.

Medikit allows to heal the engineer for 1k HP, giving a good amount of health back without going over the 25% hp barrier.

Also, I guess you’ve never played a conditionmancer.
All condition weapons hits with insanely low damage and they don’t scale with power at all (or, if they do, the scaling is unnoticeable). Scepter MH and dagger OH have the infamous record to never hit over 500 damage. The only skill which is capable to hit 1.2k damage is Feast of Corruption but, look at the irony, you need conditions on your target to do so!

They don’t work exactly like Grenade kit which deals also massive amounts of damage other than applying tons of conditions, you know…

I don’t read the whole topic 16 pages long. But I know for the fact that all QQers about this trait being OP is ONLY Necromancer, particularly Condimancer Necro. I will not explain again why I think and most of other people think this Trait is not OP. In my post, I will only point out the common sense that you should do in tPvP when engaged a AR Engineer. Engineer is a HARD counter to Condimancer Necromancer only thanks to AR trait, how does it make to OP Level? Rock always beat Scissor, does it make Rock OP? No.
AR is a Hard Counter to all Condition Class? No. I only see Staff Condimancer Necro crying, I don’t see Ranger, Mesmer, Warrior, Guardian Conditions cry about it? 1 Class among 6, Staff Necro can not defeat nor be defeated, yet Staff Necro dominate the rest? It would make more sense to cry Staff Necro is OP rather than crying AR OP.

Now, as a Staff Condimancer Necro, you can not kill an Engineer when AR kick in. So

1/What stop you to call for help from Allies?Are we playing 1v1 Deathmatch Mode here? No

2/Leave him and do something else. Wasting your time to kill an AR Engineer while you know clearly that you can not kill him is a STUPID move. Instead ask for someone else to do the job for you. Rotate the position with him. Where is your teamwork? I am not talking about Random Pugs match together. If you are soloQ , ignore this.

3/See his Allies coming. You should know better than anyone else that Necromancer is lacking of disengage ability. The better you leave, the higher chance for you to survive. Then why Stay and Fight to death?

4/The point has been neutralized. Good, let keep it that way. You both enter the stalemate. So whoever arrives first to help is the winner. So look at point 1 and 3 to know what you should doing.

Overall, why try to defeat something that you know you can not defeat ALONE while you have team mates fighting alongside with you. Even so, if it is only a very small chance that you will encounter AR engineering. Tbh, since the last Necro patch, a lot of Engine has decided to give AR a drop because most of the time, it does not do anything to help them survive. Also, please don’t confuse with Elixer Engine with Trip Kits Engine.

Stealth.9324:

Overall, why try to defeat something that you know you can not defeat ALONE while you have team mates fighting alongside with you.

That goes right back at you – why engage a necromancer/spirit ranger/s/d thief solo if you ‘know you cannot defeat them’, or at least not in a timely fashion?
By that logic, we’ve got perfect balance because you should always simply bring another guy to help you kill. A solution nothing short of brilliant.
/rolleyes

Is not that why Bunker role exist? Explain to me why Bunker should not be able to 2v1 or stall for time?

Yeah, Stealth, sure.
Keep thinking that rock, paper and scissor is a competitive game.
Is there any tournament of rock, paper and scissor? Where can I enroll?

Stealth.9324:

Is not that why Bunker role exist? Explain to me why Bunker should not be able to 2v1 or stall for time?

In fact, no bunker is able to stay alive against two, or even one good players.
A bunker is capable to stay alive against people who use their rotation without thinking, realize that the enemy is still alive and then say “omg, this guys is unkillable!11”.

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, Stealth, sure.
Keep thinking that rock, paper and scissor is a competitive game.
Is there any tournament of rock, paper and scissor? Where can I enroll?

Stealth.9324:

Is not that why Bunker role exist? Explain to me why Bunker should not be able to 2v1 or stall for time?

In fact, no bunker is able to stay alive against two, or even one good players.
A bunker is capable to stay alive against people who use their rotation without thinking, realize that the enemy is still alive and then say “omg, this guys is unkillable!11”.

About that tourney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Rock_Paper_Scissors_League
/irony

I need to feed that troll, just bought new food.
If you’re thinking that bunker only outplay bad players then you didn’t ever see good bunkers. Good guardian is unkillable in 1v1 by thief. Good engi without ar is unkillable by power / crit thief. And yet they don’t whine on the forums, that protection is super op (ok, they sometimes do, but pretend they not to, just for proving My point).

Yet bunker can’t kill you, so everything is alright. How many builds can counter good bunker? There’s not many. Teldo is crazy good player, that’s why he outplay bunker guardians. Not because his build is that good. Other builds mostly don’t even start an 1v1 fight with bunker, because it’s just stupid. If you’re not traited for hybrid damage, why should you win with someone, who’s traited for full toughness & full vitality? And any necro traited 30/30/10/0/0 should be able to kill a bunker in 1v1 nowadays. In fight vs ar engi they have to spam marks, which are unblockable (ridiculous), so it can’t be countered by blocks, and after that just use ds#4.

I played more than 1k hours on my necro, so maybe I’ve got enough knowledge to say, only by looking on video, what build someone has, and if he’s playing good. You’re proving nothing here, just whining. Make ar engi and duel me anytime you want.

Divus.3175:

About that tourney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Rock_Paper_Scissors_League
/irony

I need to feed that troll, just bought new food.
If you’re thinking that bunker only outplay bad players then you didn’t ever see good bunkers. Good guardian is unkillable in 1v1 by thief. Good engi without ar is unkillable by power / crit thief. And yet they don’t whine on the forums, that protection is super op (ok, they sometimes do, but pretend they not to, just for proving My point).

Yet bunker can’t kill you, so everything is alright. How many builds can counter good bunker? There’s not many. Teldo is crazy good player, that’s why he outplay bunker guardians. Not because his build is that good. Other builds mostly don’t even start an 1v1 fight with bunker, because it’s just stupid. If you’re not traited for hybrid damage, why should you win with someone, who’s traited for full toughness & full vitality? And any necro traited 30/30/10/0/0 should be able to kill a bunker in 1v1 nowadays. In fight vs ar engi they have to spam marks, which are unblockable (ridiculous), so it can’t be countered by blocks, and after that just use ds#4.

I played more than 1k hours on my necro, so maybe I’ve got enough knowledge to say, only by looking on video, what build someone has, and if he’s playing good. You’re proving nothing here, just whining. Make ar engi and duel me anytime you want.

Read your post.
You made a statement and contraddicted yourself in about 2 sentences later.

Good bunkers are not unkillable. They last more than average builds but they aren’t, by far, unkillable, especially if they met an equally skilled enemy.

If I’m not traited for hybrid damage, but with full conditions I don’t want to kill anyone with full toughness and vitality anyday. I just want to have a chance against him and this chance should rely also on my skill, not only the enemy’s badness.

Also, lol @ the final “I’m better than you” statement, that made you post even more ridiculous as it originally was.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Stealth.9324:

Overall, why try to defeat something that you know you can not defeat ALONE while you have team mates fighting alongside with you.

That goes right back at you – why engage a necromancer/spirit ranger/s/d thief solo if you ‘know you cannot defeat them’, or at least not in a timely fashion?
By that logic, we’ve got perfect balance because you should always simply bring another guy to help you kill. A solution nothing short of brilliant.
/rolleyes

you are amazingly inexperienced with domination game types.

kill someone: 15 sec they are back in the fight.

lock someone down: they are useless to their team.

lock someone down WHILE neuting a point?
- you’ve rendered one of their team ineffective AND crippled their point earning capacity.

This QQ thread exists because of kittens who duel, not kittens who compete.

Your argument is nothing short of brilliant, brilliant as mud.

nakoda.4213:

you are amazingly inexperienced with domination game types.

kill someone: 15 sec they are back in the fight.

lock someone down: they are useless to their team.

lock someone down WHILE neuting a point?
- you’ve rendered one of their team ineffective AND crippled their point earning capacity.

This QQ thread exists because of kittens who duel, not kittens who compete.

Your argument is nothing short of brilliant, brilliant as mud.

You only mentioned what is in favor of your argument, as usual.

Kill someone: for 15s you are playing 5vs4

Lock someone down: they are useless to their team, so you are.

Lock someone down while neuting (?) a point? you are ineffective for your team and crippled your team’s poing earning capacity as well.

Please, nakoda, refrain from posting. I’ve already got bored to answer to your flawed arguments. Get back to “compete” sitting under 25% HP taking no conditions at all automagically.

sorrow, your view of what “lockdown” means is pretty terribad.

if you are the one locking down and disabling yoru opponent….

THEN YOU ARE DOING YOUR JOB FOR YOUR TEAM.

did you forget about your team?

Lock down while neuting: you forget that area denial is part of your precious meta, so a GOOD far point assaulter will also be capping that point. you team loses nothing because you still have your own home point capped, with the rest of the action forming around mid. or perhaps the enemy will draw back to get you off of their home, freeing up the chaos at mid for a cap.

You need to stop thinking that YOU personally are what makes a team successful.

I dare you to try staying below 25% in a tournament match.

I dare you.

None of you fools have even tried it yet.

Sorrow, I’m still waiting for invitation for a duel. I can stream it and put on this thread. Just for everyone to know, why you’re not the one, who should complain about state of the game. Whole thread is about you, whining about stuff you refuse to counter with your build.

Show us real tournament fight, where as ar engi you can really compete.

Nakoda +1

nakoda.4213:

sorrow, your view of what “lockdown” means is pretty terribad.

if you are the one locking down and disabling yoru opponent….

THEN YOU ARE DOING YOUR JOB FOR YOUR TEAM.

did you forget about your team?

Lock down while neuting: you forget that area denial is part of your precious meta, so a GOOD far point assaulter will also be capping that point. you team loses nothing because you still have your own home point capped, with the rest of the action forming around mid. or perhaps the enemy will draw back to get you off of their home, freeing up the chaos at mid for a cap.

You need to stop thinking that YOU personally are what makes a team successful.

I dare you to try staying below 25% in a tournament match.

I dare you.

None of you fools have even tried it yet.

If you are locking down an opponent, your opponent is locking down you too on that point.
Do you know what it means? That you’re not helping on mid and you’re not moving to your home point to prevent that enemy guy who split up to cap it. You both are locked on that point.
I don’t know based on which kind of logic only your enemy is locked down but you aren’t.

So, according to you, you won’t ever face a Necromancer 1vs1 on a point in tournament. Yeah, definitely true, if you say so.

Divus.3175:

Sorrow, I’m still waiting for invitation for a duel. I can stream it and put on this thread. Just for everyone to know, why you’re not the one, who should complain about state of the game. Whole thread is about you, whining about stuff you refuse to counter with your build.

Show us real tournament fight, where as ar engi you can really compete.

Nakoda +1

Refuse to counter?
The only counter that has been proposed in this thread is “call a teammate”.

Ronpierce has already posted a footage of a fight against a Necro showing how that trait made the engineer unkillable.
Another guy posted a video in which he was unkillable against a condition mesmer for about 17 second until he healed up.

It makes no sense post another footage. You will always grasp at some straws to prove your point.

Okay so what I have gathered thus far from this thread.
1. In a 1v1 a bunker of any type should lose to a condition build even when built to directly counter conditions. (Balance?)
2. Sitting at 25% health requires absolutely no skill.
3. Full condition builds should have no direct counter and be able to steam roll 1v1 anyone.

4. Bunkers should drop as fast as a glass cannon in a 1v2 situation no matter what and not survive for at least a little bit.

So essentially an engineer with AR has no “skill” even tho half of winning fights is ensuringyou have a build that fits the style you want to play and the role you are ttrying to fill inside your team. And if someone on the opposing team builds to directly counter that they are OP?
Got it thanks. You guys should work for Anet really

jportell.2197:

Okay so what I have gathered thus far from this thread.
1. In a 1v1 a bunker of any type should lose to a condition build even when built to directly counter conditions. (Balance?)
2. Sitting at 25% health requires absolutely no skill.
3. Full condition builds should have no direct counter and be able to steam roll 1v1 anyone.

4. Bunkers should drop as fast as a glass cannon in a 1v2 situation no matter what and not survive for at least a little bit.

So essentially an engineer with AR has no “skill” even tho half of winning fights is ensuringyou have a build that fits the style you want to play and the role you are ttrying to fill inside your team. And if someone on the opposing team builds to directly counter that they are OP?
Got it thanks. You guys should work for Anet really

That’s because you either lack of base understanding capabilities or because you understood what you wanted to understand.

sorrow.2364:

Refuse to counter?
The only counter that has been proposed in this thread is “call a teammate”.

And the counter against any other bunker? A bunker is not a bunker if they die 1v1 they prolly won’t win that 1v1 but they definitely shouldn’t lose. Also another good counter to an engi running this trait earth shaker. Eviscerate warriors can wreck us quite easily when we get stun locked.

@Sorrow

the difference between 87 and 140 bleeds, it’s the dmg, as you saw on ron’s video, a bunker necromancer at low condi dmg was able to easily get him to 25% hp, without using terror or burning. If he woulda had those or normal condi dmg, he woulda easily killed the engi

also… the video was staged, once engi hits 25% the necro just spawns auto attack with 5s bleeds

Also… when do you ever see a necro holding home or pushing far point ? that’s just silly

also… thinking that pushing far and keeping the point neutal while holding 1-3 players at their home is hurting your team, that’s just silly…

I posted few times info about possible counter. How can’t you see that? Berserker power + condi necro will do just fine.

There are more engineer posters on this thread than I intended due to the thread on the engineer form, Automated Response hate. I intended for a more even mix so we could gather a mixture of view points rather than a biased one.

Considering we’re almost at 4k views and there are like 3 or 4 players whining about the trait, i wouldn’t say the problem is about the engineer posters.
If other people had some problem with it they would have posted here, after all. Instead there are always the same people asking for a nerf.

In anycase I didn’t title this Nerf automated response. I’m doing some more digging, Gw2 is almost balanced in my eyes and automated response is on my border because this trait seems like an overpowered counter when I see it used or when I use it but noone seems to use it much. It really is strange. I’ll let the devs figure out what to do with it.

Because as we have been saying all the time it is an extremely specialized counter for other extremely specialized builds – full condi ones.
That trait is there since the launch, and no one ever complained about it before simply because the meta wasn’t this condition heavy. These days everyone and his brother use condition builds, so people can use that trait with more success.

Manuhell.2759:

Because as we have been saying all the time it is an extremely specialized counter for other extremely specialized builds – full condi ones.
That trait is there since the launch, and no one ever complained about it before simply because the meta wasn’t this condition heavy. These days everyone and his brother use condition builds, so people can use that trait with more success.

The only condition heavy change is Dhuumfire and terror. And poison is glitched.

jportell.2197:

And the counter against any other bunker? A bunker is not a bunker if they die 1v1 they prolly won’t win that 1v1 but they definitely shouldn’t lose. Also another good counter to an engi running this trait earth shaker. Eviscerate warriors can wreck us quite easily when we get stun locked.

Yeah, so instead of “call a teammate” now the counter is “change profession”. Even better.

Also, it has already been said that bunkers aren’t unkillable in 1vs1 despite what people seems to believe and there are also various proofs in any good players’ streams.

@Sorrow

the difference between 87 and 140 bleeds, it’s the dmg, as you saw on ron’s video, a bunker necromancer at low condi dmg was able to easily get him to 25% hp, without using terror or burning. If he woulda had those or normal condi dmg, he woulda easily killed the engi

also… the video was staged, once engi hits 25% the necro just spawns auto attack with 5s bleeds

Also… when do you ever see a necro holding home or pushing far point ? that’s just silly

also… thinking that pushing far and keeping the point neutal while holding 1-3 players at their home is hurting your team, that’s just silly…

He wouldn’t kill the engi.
Once he hit the 25% hp barrier, the engi could have just cleansed with elixir and sit on 25% HP indefinitely.

The video was not staged. At the end the necro was just autoattacking to show how regeneration outhealed the damage and it was all automatic.
Before, you can clearly see the Necro using all of his skills trying to kill the engi, but nothing he can do.

Even the first video, the one in which the engineer dies, shows how the damage is near to zero and can be permanently outhealed while you are under 25% HP. Then the engineer healed and died because he brought no condition removal against a condition spec.

You guys see only what you want to see. How can someone have an unbiased argument why you are openly and carelessly biased towards your profession?

About the last part, nobody talked about holding 2+ players, I mentioned only one player. In that case, both of them are useless to their respective teams.

I’m not here to cry, never was. I don’t even PLAY a condition Necromancer. And to be frank, 1v1, I don’t have an issue with much of anything, but I do care about game balance enough to accept if something is too good, it should be changed. The point isn’t thakittens situational, its the fact that it entirely bypasses certain builds without even having to play anymore once at a certain point. That’s just not okay. I suggested a good alternative:

At 25% hp, clear all Conditions and gain immunity to them for 6 seconds. 40 second cooldown. That’s enough time to pop back up, it CLEARED that condi stacking on you, and it even makes you un-conditionbased-ccable for a bit. It would have its uses versus anything, but still mostly good versus condition specs.

That’s STRONGER than Berserker stance, lower CD, still mindless since you guys obviously like that sort of thing, and yet, if they’re just putting THAT much pressure on you, you will still die as you likely should. Being able to not play and outheal ANY build in the entire game is not “okay” ever… I have no clue why you guys can even think that it is…

You suggested an useless alternative. Why do you compare engineers with warriors? We haven’t got their burst capabilities, especially without HGH – and they take the same grandmaster slot. Getting it in a bunker build would be useless – we lack passive condition removals and the only full one we’ve got is elixir C – and getting it in an offensive one would be useless as well – you are already giving up HGH for that and you’ve spent almost half of the trait points in defensive stats.

Using sorrow’s “logic” it’s okay if a bunker can’t kill anyone, but anyone can kill the bunker.

Manuhell.2759:

You suggested an useless alternative. Why do you compare engineers with warriors? We haven’t got their burst capabilities, especially without HGH – and they take the same grandmaster slot. Getting it in a bunker build would be useless – we lack passive condition removals and the only full one we’ve got is elixir C – and getting it in an offensive one would be useless as well – you are already giving up HGH for that and you’ve spent almost half of the trait points in defensive stats.

And this, folks, is why you can’t consider the posts of those guys unbiased.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_C
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Burst
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Super_Elixir
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R + Projectile Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transmute

Then we have Automated Response.
But I guess that condition cleansing isn’t the same as condition immunity.

Grackleflint.4956:

Using sorrow’s “logic” it’s okay if a bunker can’t kill anyone, but anyone can kill the bunker.

Have you ever listened to any dev statement about bunker-burst?

They have clearly stated that they have designed GW2 to make damage have a more relevant role compared to defense.
Do you know what that means? I guess not, so I’ll explain it easy easy to you.

It means that if you play as a bunker and you’re giving up on all your damage you will of course survive more, but you won’t be unkillable. In most cases, survive more is crucial to the point that being unkillable shouldn’t belong to this game.

And, if you look at the game right now, no bunker is unkillable. They just survive more than the average build which is what they are supposed to do.

If it helps, I could agree with you, maybe your other condi removal options need to be better. Like I said, I’m not saying other balance changes don’t need to be made, so don’t assume I am. I’m also not trying to say Engies are OP. I’m saying simply that a single trait that can shut down an entire build (several for that fact) by ignoring them entirely, just isn’t okay.

sorrow.2364:

And this, folks, is why you can’t consider the posts of those guys unbiased.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_C
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Burst
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Super_Elixir
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R + Projectile Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transmute

Then we have Automated Response.
But I guess that condition cleansing isn’t the same as condition immunity.

And this is why you’re terribly biased .
Aside from Transmute and Cleansing Formula the one you’ve linked are all active – and Cleansing Formula triggers on an active elixir skill anyway.
Transmute doesn’t even cleanse instead.
Transmute can convert an incoming condition – that means that already inflicted ones are still there. It won’t cleanse a burning that is already there if it triggers on a burning, but i’ll just convert the new one in a boon. On a 8% chance. On a grandmaster minor trait.
Then we have the active skills – and all of them are in different utilities.
Super Elixir cleanses a single one; Cleansing burst cleanses two – and that’s assuming the turret lives enough to process it.
But the most stupid thing there is
Toss elixir R: who would waste it for the cleansing effect? Beside you, i mean.

Now go there and see for yourself the traits who grants passive removal.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal#Traits_that_remove_conditions

And beside all of this there are also signets, who often have a passive single condition cleanse every X seconds.

Manuhell.2759:

And this is why you’re terribly biased .
Aside from Transmute and Cleansing Formula the one you’ve linked are all active – and Cleansing Formula triggers on an active elixir skill anyway.
Transmute doesn’t even cleanse instead.
Transmute can convert an incoming condition – that means that already inflicted ones are still there. It won’t cleanse a burning that is already there if it triggers on a burning, but i’ll just convert the new one in a boon. On a 8% chance. On a grandmaster minor trait.
Then we have the active skills – and all of them are in different utilities.
Super Elixir cleanses a single one; Cleansing burst cleanses two – and that’s assuming the turret lives enough to process it.
But the most stupid thing there is
Toss elixir R: who would waste it for the cleansing effect? Beside you, i mean.

Now go there and see for yourself the traits who grants passive removal.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal#Traits_that_remove_conditions

And beside all of this there are also signets, who often have a passive single condition cleanse every X seconds.

Right. I forgot that you like it passive.
The game has to do the job for you.

holy crap!!!!!! after jumping in an out of 25+ games spectating waiting around 10 mins- few hours each time ( to see new players come in) I finally saw one of these mystic AR trait using engi ( you would think for such an op trait as you claim it to be that youd find more of them). he was running that build you posted from the staged video, Sorry bro if you really wanted to make an impact you should of ran it in a hotjoin from start to finish. for all we could of known for all we could of known your necro friend could of be trait less

he squared off with a necro staff/dagger+focus 0/30/10/20/10 lived for about 30 secs ( giving engi benefit of the doubt) before necro took him out….lol so op. I kinda got discouraged after waiting/watching for long that finally when one finally did show up , i kinda forgot to record after waiting so long for one to show up * failing face palm on my part* hopefully someone will catch another random otherwise…. back to the waiting board for me and hope i remember what im doing lmao

Get ready for the payback, for not being seen in play that much, it would be fine if we alter it a bit. No big deal…LoL

Right? I mean if no one uses it, why do you guys care if we ask for it to be changed a bit in functionality from immunity to a cooldown but a little stronger (clearing condies too). I mean, who’d know?

Seriously o-O??? Oh well, I should be on my way to be a future teller…..

Stealth.9324:

Seriously o-O??? Oh well, I should be on my way to be a future teller…..

No wonder if the cause you’re standing for is completely kittened up.

“Guys, the trait is fine! It is completely useless and nobody use that but please, please, don’t change it!”

sorrow.2364:

Stealth.9324:

Seriously o-O??? Oh well, I should be on my way to be a future teller…..

No wonder if the cause you’re standing for is completely kittened up.

“Guys, the trait is fine! It is completely useless and nobody use that but please, please, don’t change it!”

Change for the better always welcome, change for the worse, no. “Why don’t we change Terror trait as well by give it 10s ICD between each fear and has Fear last 1s Longer. And hey the Terror Necro Fear never that popular before until recent patch, so the trait is useless and nobody use it until recent patch. Why worry if we change it and Necro nerf coming soon unavoidable anyway”

@sorrow
maybe so, what I saw on the vid was an unexperienced bunker necro with low condi dmg and no terror vs a bunker engi running elixir C (no one really runs it) on a 1v1 server during a staged fight, from an edited video.

and no one really runs AR, but that doesn’t mean the class should be nerfed because 2 terrible players one night got owned by someone running these traits on a hotjoin. a game shouldn’t be balanced around the lack of skill and QQ from a few

google.3709:

@sorrow
maybe so, what I saw on the vid was an unexperienced bunker necro with low condi dmg and no terror vs a bunker engi running elixir C (no one really runs it) on a 1v1 server during a staged fight, from an edited video.

and no one really runs AR, but that doesn’t mean the class should be nerfed because 2 terrible players one night got owned by someone running these traits on a hotjoin. a game shouldn’t be balanced around the lack of skill and QQ from a few

So to clear some stuff up, I didn’t check his build prior, he did have Shamans (hence neither of us dying) but even then I was never in any danger of his damage. My point wasn’t so much to prove much other than how under a certain , he’d do no damage to me. The thing is, if he used Rabid and I got to 25 and used C, he’d do no damage to me AND be easier to kill off… So there’s that…

Secondly, I’m a little sick of the bullkitten about it being staged, it wasn’t. It wasn’t edited either except sped up, then I recorded his comments afterward, then the “staged” part was me just showing that even under 25% hp with condi+ duration when he hit me it didn’t apply the conditions, so it wasn’t staged… It was informational. Additionally, I had no idea what spec he had. All I knew was he ran conditions, so I asked him to fight me, that’s all it was. I wasn’t expecting this to be the debate of the century or I’d have put a bit more thought into it.

More over, I did run this in a tPvP and won, didn’t die once, held Mine the entire game (except letting it decap once when I went to drop a supply crate on middle because the team desparately needed middle) but then I went and got it right back. The team was Warrior, Thief, Mesmer and an MM necro (5th escapes me). I began uploading it but after 4% after 20 mins I realized how silly it even was to post any move videos of it working because you people are defending something “no one even runs”. You’re all being ridiculous to even ever THINK having 100% IMMUNITY, (not an edge) to ANY build at ANY point with no Cooldown, is just beyond me. I’m all for balance, I don’t care about your trait, I’ll even buff it. If it was something like…

“When dropping below 30% hp, lose all conditions and gain Protection and Condition Immunity for 8 seconds, but have a 40 second Cooldown, I’d be all for that. Know why? It helps vs melee, doesn’t require C since no one runs it and its obviously completely useless, and it gives you that window to recover from Conditions (while even fully removing them all), but you’re not IMMUNE to an entire build forever under 25%. You people defending it aren’t even TRYING to come to that realization or middle ground that has been offered so many times. You’re just complaining and griping because people want a trait that “no one runs” to be changed a bit so it isn’t mindlessly immortal to another TYPE of build.

You’re all very childish, rude and horrible at coming to a common/middle ground. The way you guys defend it, you’re not defending a move “no one uses” you’d defending a trait you abuse and don’t want nerfed. If it’s no big deal to you, then why are you even putting so much effort into this?

@ronpierce.2760

Then we’re back to sth else. Should a trait be balanced for low-level play mid-level play or high-level play? Because it’s obviously op for low- and mid-level, that’s for sure. I played a build with healing bombs and ar before latest patch and laughed at many people trying to kill me without knowing, how it works. But since yoloq pair me with top1000 or even top100 players, I’ve seen how they can outplay this kind of bunker. They didn’t complain even once.

As for the cooldown on trait: not everything has to get cooldown. Look at bunkerish eles builds – healing a condition on every regen applying and lots of abilities leading to that. + evasive arcana with healing. Should it all get cooldown, because it easily outplay many mediocore damage builds? I think not.

Still appreciate your efford on trying it out, and getting an idea to improve a trait. I feel it’s still not even close to making it resonable to take instead. This one trait now still makes few engis moderate good close point defenders. Of course, if engi will get few changes here and there, making it easier to get a good bunker, the change should get changed. But not until then, especially with current abusing condi spam meta.

Why is current meta absurd for engis? Because as bunker you use block from shield #5 and tool kit #4 (gear shield), which is super easy to be countered by any necro – unblockable marks. Don’t get me wrong, I love unblockable marks when I play my necro, but it just feel too op in current state of necro traits.

the thing is.. if he had been using rabid, terror or corropt boom, the fight would have ended alot sooner and there wouldn’t be an argument since he bills was dealing soo much less dmg than average necros.

and I’m here for 2 reasons

1. I’m out the country and the forums can be entertaining if I’m not doing anything (aka if I get bored and feel like arguing :p oops)
2. cause you guys try too hard, which makes it kinda fun..

if there was valid arguments and actual facts, people might actually agree but when you bring up things such as;

• d/d power necros can’t kill engi because they can’t snare them once they hit 25%(4k-5k hp)
• 3 condi clssss can’t kill an engi sitting on less than 4k hp,
• an engi can sit on less than 4k hp and live forever( and imply it’s even viable on PvP)

you can trait with AR to be strong vs a specific build, but it will only be strong against that build and that build only, that’s why very few players run it, and u ask if no one runs it, why do we care if it gets nerfed ? well.. we can ask you the very same thing, no one runs it, so why do you want it to get nerfed ??

if it wasn’t for the “immune” people wouldn’t even notice since engi using AR will die just as fast, you just happened to have a bad experience one time and now you are overdoing it. and people are just “taking advantage of it”

For the record… the change you’re offering would be an incredible buff, way better than the real AR and a bit OP, full condi clear, 8s immune to condi, long protection on a 40s icd? Im sure everyone would love it!! but you 2 make toooo easy and fun so people continue to argue just because :p

Ps: don’t try getting someone else’s class just because a bad experienced, that’s just bad.. ignore that 1 seldom time or learn to play around it, if it is a real issue, it will pop up as a real issue, most people are just here to prove YOU wrong just because

I dont’ care if it’s good. I don’t play engi and I’d be fine with my own suggested change. (Perhaps 60 sec CD instead? Not sure it’d have to be tested, maybe not even.) But I just don’t like anything in the game to be immune to another build. Just isn’t good for the game.