Guild Wars 2

Great story, go tell that to riot; also ask them why everyone of their new champ is OP and not just a different flavor of the month.

As a warrior main, I am praying for Anet to tone down elite specs/ stab. But this is the real world, dignity doesnt pay your son tuition, same reason why i would never belittle a drug dealer for selling drugs. ( even though I have an antipathy for them).

I hope Anet will tone down elite specs, however because I undertsand how marketing/ business operate. I am not sweating over it.

‘Great story, go tell that to a company who has been founded on Gemstore pay for better better vs a company that struggled/strived for balance for 8-10 years.’ That’s sarcasm right? We’re trying to give an antidote to the sickness.

Antipathy would mean hatred or an adverse resolve, maybe you meant empathy…or are admitting your comparison of a game dev. team and a drug dealer is stupid?

Tman.6349:

‘Great story, go tell that to a company who has been founded on Gemstore pay for better better vs a company that struggled/strived for balance for 8-10 years.’ That’s sarcasm right? We’re trying to give an antidote to the sickness.

Antipathy would mean hatred or an adverse resolve, maybe you meant empathy…or are admitting your comparison of a game dev. team and a drug dealer is stupid?

His comparison may be stupid…but he’s spot on about the whole argument
It’s no secret for anyone that elite specs are part of the marketing effort, the simplicity and efficiency of some elite specs were doubtlessly planned from the start and for clear reasons

Salamander.2504:

I think I speak for the entire community when I say that the consensus is to *nerf the elite specs already.

NO! You DON’T speak for the entire community. Quite the opposite. Why the F would you want nerf’s? Who want’s to feel like they have the power of a wet noodle?

I enjoy the Elite specs. Buff those that lafg behind. Don’t penalise those that are already in a nice spot kitten .

Mitch.4781:

Salamander.2504:

I think I speak for the entire community when I say that the consensus is to *nerf the elite specs already.

NO! You DON’T speak for the entire community. Quite the opposite. Why the F would you want nerf’s? Who want’s to feel like they have the power of a wet noodle?

I enjoy the Elite specs. Buff those that lafg behind. Don’t penalise those that are already in a nice spot kitten .

Number of games played and win ratio?

Mitch.4781:

Salamander.2504:

I think I speak for the entire community when I say that the consensus is to *nerf the elite specs already.

NO! You DON’T speak for the entire community. Quite the opposite. Why the F would you want nerf’s? Who want’s to feel like they have the power of a wet noodle?

I enjoy the Elite specs. Buff those that lafg behind. Don’t penalise those that are already in a nice spot kitten .

Buffing Warrior beyond some QOL updates would just lead to more QQ on the forums about the class and it’ll get neutered again. We’ve seen it since the launch of the game. I’d rather be the underdog than be the class that everyone hates because it’s “easy to play.”

All buffs are going to do is perpetuate the cycle of the game getting easier. Having easy to play Elite specs does not help the game. When the next Elite Spec comes along it’ll have to do something even just as powerful, when instead they should offer a new way to play or slightly improve the weaknesses of the class.

Any changes to Warrior/Thief/Guardian should come from mechanical changes that reward skilled play, not just lowing the skill ceiling like most of the elite specs that are just flat upgrades that are easy to use.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Mitch.4781:

Salamander.2504:

I think I speak for the entire community when I say that the consensus is to *nerf the elite specs already.

NO! You DON’T speak for the entire community. Quite the opposite. Why the F would you want nerf’s? Who want’s to feel like they have the power of a wet noodle?

I enjoy the Elite specs. Buff those that lafg behind. Don’t penalise those that are already in a nice spot kitten .

Buffing Warrior beyond some QOL updates would just lead to more QQ on the forums about the class and it’ll get neutered again. We’ve seen it since the launch of the game. I’d rather be the underdog than be the class that everyone hates because it’s “easy to play.”

All buffs are going to do is perpetuate the cycle of the game getting easier. Having easy to play Elite specs does not help the game. When the next Elite Spec comes along it’ll have to do something even just as powerful, when instead they should offer a new way to play or slightly improve the weaknesses of the class.

Any changes to Warrior/Thief/Guardian should come from mechanical changes that reward skilled play, not just lowing the skill ceiling like most of the elite specs that are just flat upgrades that are easy to use.

What you say wa already asked way before HoT would be released, eles for example were asking for a sword burst elite..we’ve got tempest warhorn healbot

Just saying this at loud: If they buff again all the other classes and then nerf elementalist again without even buffing anything to make it up… Then I’m done with this game.

flarezi.9381:

Just saying this at loud: If they buff again all the other classes and then nerf elementalist again without even buffing anything to make it up… Then I’m done with this game.

Lol prepare to be done!

flarezi.9381:

Just saying this at loud: If they buff again all the other classes and then nerf elementalist again without even buffing anything to make it up… Then I’m done with this game.

What @Keadron said……get ready to leave

BurrTheKing.8571:

All buffs are going to do is perpetuate the cycle of the game getting easier.

Yeah, the power leap in HoT is very noticeable with elite specs. Another problem for HoT is the power creep in ranger pets. The core pets simply can’t compete with the bristleback and maybe even the smokescale. Ranger pet diversity is a pretty big balance problem across the entire game, with little reason to use the majority of them.

Elite specs shouldn’t be straight up superior to core specs in most scenarios, they should diversify play styles, not strictly enhance them. You’ve got your HoT purchase bump from people who wanted to buy power level for their characters, time to bring things back in line.

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking caps

Ogre.3124:

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking cap here guys. This is a difficult one for sure

You cant seriously be that blind. And neither can Anet. The goal of game developement is never to make the easiest choices possible. Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. Balancing is aimed to provide a healthy, well-working framework for people to play in. And a professional balance team, despite all the mistakes they made, should know this. I hope no game developer has ever aimed for the easiest possible way to to achieve the desired result, knowing that it will not actually fix any problems.
It might very well be that they only equalize for now (buffing warrior and nerfing others), but they will have to look at the system as a whole eventually and they will have to reconsider the implementation of elitespecs.
I expect them to fight the symptoms with this and subsequent patches, but they cant possibly be unaware of the disease itself.

I would enjoy being able to play more builds that don’t require traiting into the elite specs to be competitive, as long as they don’t butcher the elite specs so bad that it makes everyone regret ever buying HOT lol.

Asrat.2645:

Ogre.3124:

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking cap here guys. This is a difficult one for sure

You cant seriously be that blind. And neither can Anet. The goal of game developement is never to make the easiest choices possible. Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. Balancing is aimed to provide a healthy, well-working framework for people to play in. And a professional balance team, despite all the mistakes they made, should know this. I hope no game developer has ever aimed for the easiest possible way to to achieve the desired result, knowing that it will not actually fix any problems.
It might very well be that they only equalize for now (buffing warrior and nerfing others), but they will have to look at the system as a whole eventually and they will have to reconsider the implementation of elitespecs.
I expect them to fight the symptoms with this and subsequent patches, but they cant possibly be unaware of the disease itself.

“Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. "

Time is money. The solution is simple. To make this any more complicated and time-consuming for the company to work on every single class when they’re balanced between one-another at the moment is non-sensical. This is one of those examples where there’s a gap of intelligence which creates a fallacy that a complicated solution is better which in reality is the opposite.

Ogre.3124:

Asrat.2645:

Ogre.3124:

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking cap here guys. This is a difficult one for sure

You cant seriously be that blind. And neither can Anet. The goal of game developement is never to make the easiest choices possible. Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. Balancing is aimed to provide a healthy, well-working framework for people to play in. And a professional balance team, despite all the mistakes they made, should know this. I hope no game developer has ever aimed for the easiest possible way to to achieve the desired result, knowing that it will not actually fix any problems.
It might very well be that they only equalize for now (buffing warrior and nerfing others), but they will have to look at the system as a whole eventually and they will have to reconsider the implementation of elitespecs.
I expect them to fight the symptoms with this and subsequent patches, but they cant possibly be unaware of the disease itself.

“Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. "

Time is money. The solution is simple. To make this any more complicated and time-consuming for the company to work on every single class when they’re balanced between one-another at the moment is non-sensical. This is one of those examples where there’s a gap of intelligence which creates a fallacy that a complicated solution is better which in reality is the opposite.

This would be true if they were balanced atm but they aren’t so I don’t see your point

Keadron.9570:

Ogre.3124:

Asrat.2645:

Ogre.3124:

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking cap here guys. This is a difficult one for sure

You cant seriously be that blind. And neither can Anet. The goal of game developement is never to make the easiest choices possible. Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. Balancing is aimed to provide a healthy, well-working framework for people to play in. And a professional balance team, despite all the mistakes they made, should know this. I hope no game developer has ever aimed for the easiest possible way to to achieve the desired result, knowing that it will not actually fix any problems.
It might very well be that they only equalize for now (buffing warrior and nerfing others), but they will have to look at the system as a whole eventually and they will have to reconsider the implementation of elitespecs.
I expect them to fight the symptoms with this and subsequent patches, but they cant possibly be unaware of the disease itself.

“Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. "

Time is money. The solution is simple. To make this any more complicated and time-consuming for the company to work on every single class when they’re balanced between one-another at the moment is non-sensical. This is one of those examples where there’s a gap of intelligence which creates a fallacy that a complicated solution is better which in reality is the opposite.

This would be true if they were balanced atm but they aren’t so I don’t see your point

They are considering the statistics of classes which hit Legendary. Warrior is the only class which falls short drastically.

Ogre.3124:

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking caps

You’re assuming the outcome is the same for either approach, but inter-profession balance is only part of the issue. Solution (b) would be an investment aimed at creating a much healthier game in the long run.

vana.5467:

Ogre.3124:

Clearly the business decision would be to buff warriors’ elite specs. There are two choices here, and let’s see if you can pick the right one as a developer:

a) Spend x time buffing warriors’ elite specs to be on par with other elite specs.

b) Spend 8x time nerfing a main sales point in your game.

Let’s put on our thinking caps

You’re assuming the outcome is the same for either approach, but inter-profession balance is only part of the issue. Solution (b) would be an investment aimed at creating a much healthier game in the long run.

I’m responding to rhetorical conjecture here. List some examples of the new classes making some aspects of this game unplayable.

Also the inferred options I made inferred that b) would result is less HoT sales. The results are different.

Ogre.3124:

“Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. "

Time is money. The solution is simple. To make this any more complicated and time-consuming for the company to work on every single class when they’re balanced between one-another at the moment is non-sensical. This is one of those examples where there’s a gap of intelligence which creates a fallacy that a complicated solution is better which in reality is the opposite.

Imagine: If they buffed warrior, and maybe thief and guard but didnt nerf anything, and lets also assume they did it right.
So we are having perfect inter-class balance. Everyone can beat everyone else.
Would that make this a balanced game? Would that imply a healthy game state? Would that solve the probelm of build diversity? Would that adress the problem of skill spamming? Of passive carries? Of elite specs?

No.

In order to gain a somewhat playable state they only need to tone down certain traits, buff some others, problem solved. Not. The symptoms are hidden, the disease is not cured. Its callep powercreep.
Now I dont say the game needs a total overhaul (even tho I’m working on one), but there will have to be some serious changes over the coming 6 months.
Im fine if they focus on getting a basic idea of fairness back into the game first, but it cant be all.
Balance is also not a management decison, its a design decision.
They have to work with certain limitations (ressources, update frequency) but the actual game balance is in the hands of people who are trying to create a playable game, casual friendly but fairly challenging.

Asrat.2645:

Ogre.3124:

“Balancing is not intended to be ‘easy’ or ‘fast’. "

Time is money. The solution is simple. To make this any more complicated and time-consuming for the company to work on every single class when they’re balanced between one-another at the moment is non-sensical. This is one of those examples where there’s a gap of intelligence which creates a fallacy that a complicated solution is better which in reality is the opposite.

Imagine: If they buffed warrior, and maybe thief and guard but didnt nerf anything, and lets also assume they did it right.
So we are having perfect inter-class balance. Everyone can beat everyone else.
Would that make this a balanced game? Would that imply a healthy game state? Would that solve the probelm of build diversity? Would that adress the problem of skill spamming? Of passive carries? Of elite specs?

No.

In order to gain a somewhat playable state they only need to tone down certain traits, buff some others, problem solved. Not. The symptoms are hidden, the disease is not cured. Its callep powercreep.
Now I dont say the game needs a total overhaul (even tho I’m working on one), but there will have to be some serious changes over the coming 6 months.
Im fine if they focus on getting a basic idea of fairness back into the game first, but it cant be all.
Balance is also not a management decison, its a design decision.
They have to work with certain limitations (ressources, update frequency) but the actual game balance is in the hands of people who are trying to create a playable game, casual friendly but fairly challenging.

Here’s a good point. Yes, powercreep with new classes / builds in an expansion gives less build diversity. Anet is taking the route of Blizzard with this expansion. The new classes released in the expansion are purposely made OP to boost sales. After a long time only then are the new expansion classes nerfed to match the others. This issue you’re mentioning is more than likely intentional. So, the solution here which fits the mold is to buff warrior (Berserkers) and maybe slightly Daredevils and Dragonhunters as well.

A great solution would be to make non-expansion trait lines more balanced yet still weaker than the HoT elite trait lines. This way there is still the powercreep; however, there is build diversity with the remaining two trait lines.

I think OP is right on this one.

It’s time to bring back elites specs in line with core specs. The build diversity has gone down to 6-7 builds since HOT was launched , the power creep became insane and the skill floor is realy low atm.

I think the priority right now is to give us a balanced game where passive traits are less effective and elites specs aren’t stronger than the regular builds.

I also think energy sigils nerf should be reverted and nerf active defences on some classes who have to many of them instead. —> because the energy sigil nerf , nerfed classes with lower accest to active defences more than it nerfed classes that overbunker nodes.

The nerf to bunker amulets was needed back then with Mesmer , tempest , and other HOT build abusing these amulets and it was a good call. If you nerf HOT elite specs you should reconsider this and maybe push back some of them into the game. (I think ele realy needs the celestial amulet if it doesn’t wan’t to stick to a pure bunker role… but i understand celestial amulet also introduce some game breaking abuses on some other builds .)

Ogre.3124:

Here’s a good point. Yes, powercreep with new classes / builds in an expansion gives less build diversity. Anet is taking the route of Blizzard with this expansion. The new classes released in the expansion are purposely made OP to boost sales. After a long time only then are the new expansion classes nerfed to match the others. This issue you’re mentioning is more than likely intentional. So, the solution here which fits the mold is to buff warrior (Berserkers) and maybe slightly Daredevils and Dragonhunters as well.

I wouldnt say its exclusively for the sales (partially maybe)
Two main reasons:
a) Every class is intended to get shiny stuff. Its just like with the revenant iut has to be cool, it has to be attractive. I believe they mostly wanted to make them appealing, making them op was more of an unwanted side effect due to bad balance.

b) Most of you miss the greater picture when talking about elite specs. I dont think there was ever supposed to be only one/class. There will most certainly be added more. And suddenly they are not op. They exceed core traits but are optional and interchangeable.
The only mistake made was to not consider the frame of time where only one elitespec would be available.
Actually I suppose 2 or more /class were internally planned for HoT and then scrapped as some1 got the great idea to tie this in with collections and other additional stuff, leaving neither the balance team, nor the core team with enough ressources to take care of it. But thats only speculation ofc.

Mitch.4781:

I enjoy the Elite specs. Buff those that lafg behind. Don’t penalise those that are already in a nice spot kitten .

No, buffing those that lagg behind would just lead to more power creep, and that’s something we don’t want. Because nobody likes kitten doing 10k dmg in a 1/4sec attack with a super low CD or bunkers holding 3 people on a single point without problems.

Elite specs that are in a nice spot are actually very few, practically none if you compare the game now to how it was pre HoT. Even berserker, the worse elite spec has some ridiculous cheese like Eternal Champion and gunflame that needs to get the f out, just as a majority of other elite spec BS traits/weapon skills do. Practically every single elite spec has something that makes it slightly/vastly superior to its non-elite counterpart, the least guilty in that case being warrior because unless you run condi or gunflame its fairly arguable which is better, and tbh I feel it goes in the favor of Vanilla warrior (except for eternal champion lol, that traits is just stupid strong) most of the time.