Guild Wars 2

But that’s exactly what’s wrong with down state. Down state promotes mindless AoE and heavily favors specific setups. As soon as somebody goes down, whether it’s on your side or the opponent’s, you see AoE rain down on that body like no tomorrow.

This is an accepted way of “team fighting”, but in my opinion it’s simply bad design, because AoE is way too strong (obviously this is the root of the problem, but other than the promise of reducing that from a couple months ago, we haven’t seen a single change in that direction. In fact some single target abilities have since then been turned into piercing and cleaving attacks) and the only semi-counter is not to pile up.

This is much less a problem for professions who are playing range builds than it is for those who have to get right on the body to make sure it’s not being rezzed up. Usually the team fight is won by the team that can drain more resources from the other team in the rezz/stomp battle over a fallen team mate and that is utterly ridiculous.

If you manage to pressure your opponent hard enough in such a battle, you will then have the upper hand, even if you lose a team mate before them, because you will kill/weaken them all at once and thus preventing the enemy from reinforcing the node.

Right now, what you really want is a bunch of ranged professions that can cleave any downed player to hell and back. If you manage to kill them all, great, if not, at least you won’t be taking much damage, because you are nowhere near the downed player, so that you can keep reinforcing the node till you win.

Range dps has an advantage from a reactionary perspective, but if your fast enough to get on top of downed players warriors can have the best cleave off CD. Also res abilities can be an excellent counter to comps that just kill in this manner, as they often lack the sustain to stay up long themselves.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

lets continue this in a new topic if you must.

Why? Is it not pertaining to the subject matter?

guild wars 2 is a team game.
if 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 is possible due to skill, then there is something very wrong with that profession who can 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 easily.

… “easily”?
Anyway, your allegation attests that the game doesn’t promote skill enough to devalue those odds. Is skill not supposed to be the predominant factor in PvP? If professions don’t have enough depth to support the potential to 1v2/3 opponents than the problem lies with the game, not with the profession.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

strength in numbers.
1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3, the larger team should always have a higher chance to prevail.

Obviously yes, but I’m not debating probability.
You implied that because GW2 is a team game, individual skill can not overcome 1v2/3 odds.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

anyway, if the so called skill person is really that skilled, he should have no problem stomping or dps-ing the downed player and proceed to defeat the remaining player(s)

You just contradicted your whole dissertation… O_o

Phaeton.9582:

Range dps has an advantage from a reactionary perspective, but if your fast enough to get on top of downed players warriors can have the best cleave off CD. Also res abilities can be an excellent counter to comps that just kill in this manner, as they often lack the sustain to stay up long themselves.

I can’t remember the last time I have seen teams run with more than Illusion of Life as rezz utilities and that’s pretty much present on both sides (mainly because we don’t see many necros anymore).

Warriors are very rare in TPvP and while they do have very good rezz/stomp denial, they will die instantly, if they start 100 blading a corpse, but you mentioned that already.

Med.6150:

Phaeton.9582:

Range dps has an advantage from a reactionary perspective, but if your fast enough to get on top of downed players warriors can have the best cleave off CD. Also res abilities can be an excellent counter to comps that just kill in this manner, as they often lack the sustain to stay up long themselves.

I can’t remember the last time I have seen teams run with more than Illusion of Life as rezz utilities and that’s pretty much present on both sides (mainly because we don’t see many necros anymore).

Warriors are very rare in TPvP and while they do have very good rezz/stomp denial, they will die instantly, if they start 100 blading a corpse, but you mentioned that already.

I won’t usually die from 100 blading a corpse, as if there’s an engi aoe he’ll be pressured by me or an ally, ditto for mesmers. I run stances specifically for cleaving downed players, and if I die its from overcommitting. I never feel it unfair.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Often times the classes with the lowest health and armor have the best forms of stomp prevention. If a thief goes down in a team fight he is NOT getting up if there is a roamer cleaving him. It’ll often times kill the rezzers in the process as well. Even if they do get up the people rezzing have taken a massive hit in health “resources” that they’ll have a very difficult time recovering. How your team reacts to the downed players is far more important than the downed players and the abilities themselves. The glaring imbalances appear when the fights are smaller as I said before because the downed players become more important and stomping reliably becomes more difficult.

Thats why we have in our Team-setup

- Feedback bubble / Null Field
- Medics Feedback
- Shield of Absorbtion
- Resolute Healer
- Sanctuary / Shield of the Avenger / Wall of Reflection
- Runes of Mercy on 1-2 chars
- Arcane Ressurrection
- Mist Form
- Putrid Mark

+ CC (Necro, Ele etc)
+ Multiple Softrezzes like Illu of Life

We take almost no dmg rezzing…..

Simply allow hot joins without downed state as an option. They can’t/won’t balance normal abilities so what makes you think they will do so for downed?

Been months till they fixed the ele downed state and they simply switched the abilities around.. Necros still suffer from their low health during downed state since what..launch?

The option is already available in custom arenas, I think.

PowerBottom.5796:

Lighter.5631:

Ostricheggs.3742:

There’s rarely a lost or won fight that any players can blame on the downed state outside of a lack of knowledge of how to work it. You don’t down five guys while a player is downed and no one is rezzing, that’s just completely stupid.

its not about the mechanics, if you never played a warrior, i guess you will never get 2 downed people or rangers pet 1 to the ground because warriors have no sustain like no sustain to no sustain and it was already difficult for us to take down two people. and you will never be so depressed because how you can do nothing else so nothing but nothing, but watching that ranger get rezed up by their be loved pets.

Simply start playing with Teammates that can rez and stomp and stop getting into unfavourable Situations. What are you doing in 1v1’s with a Warrior anyways? I don’t know any Warrior-Build thats good in 1v1, he’s a Teamfight-character.

Yes, War’s are imba and their downed-state sucks pretty hard, but c’mon, even the fastest fish will be considered weak if you measure it by how fast he can climb a Tree.

It’s a Teamgame and Chars have Pro’s and Con’s – specifically the Warrior needs a Team to make up for his flaws, so either change your Class or start playing with a Thief.

I’ve never experienced it once (at least I can’t remember it) that a Ranger was able to rezz himself by his Pet in structured PvP and I’ve played about 2k tournament Matches with a Premade Team.

Again, the only thing that matters in 90% of the Situations in structured PvP with Premades is how often you can evade the Stomp. Really nothing else has any impact whatsoever in most Situations.

im sorry, but what i said happens in group fight as well. obviously a premade team and not a warrior, thanks for not reading my comment

ronpierce.2760:

Incorrect, rangers can too.

Good call, I forgot that one.

Manuhell.2759:

You need an utility skill to do that, it has got a 120s cooldown, must be placed exactly before you die (cause it has got a 6s duration and you get 20% downed hp per pulse) and it can be countered anyway, either via launch or dealing enough damage when downed.
It is useful? Yeah. But we shouldn’t be required to use it to make up for a poor downed state.

You need a utility but Elixir R is very good, and you’ll find it on just about every bar for that very reason (and a stun breaker), hence you cannot possibly buff the engineer downstate without also nerfing that skill into the ground lest you break their downstate completely.

Erebos.6741:

Anyway, your allegation attests that the game doesn’t promote skill enough to devalue those odds. Is skill not supposed to be the predominant factor in PvP? If professions don’t have enough depth to support the potential to 1v2/3 opponents than the problem lies with the game, not with the profession.

In a game of skill, of equal skill, 1v2 or 1v3 is impossible unless you fall into a case of massive hard counters. This is why anyone who’s talking about being unable to win “skilled” 1vXs is lying through their teeth when they use the word “skill”. What they really mean is:

“Down state prevents me from curbstomping newbs with my leet skillz!”
or
“My class is absolutely OP, but this dumb down state prevents me from murdering countless foes!”

I thought this would be another “remove down state” thread, but I am glad to see people making insightful commentary instead. I think that the ideal for downed state skills should be that all professions get relatively minimal damage output and one single target interrupt, but are thereafter reliant entirely on team mates to get them up.

Removing repositioning tools like teleports and mist form would probably be a good start to balancing the downed state as well. Players are often downed due to getting out of position, and allowing some classes a “get out of jail free” card in those scenarios while denying it to other classes is problematic. Furthermore, if you get out of position and the other team capitalizes on the opportunity, then you deserved to die, and your choice of profession shouldn’t deny the kill.

The other thing is that stability stomps and safety stomps should either be accessible to all professions in a more balanced fashion or not allowed at all. I tend to believe that eliminating safety stomps would bring more team involvement into the game since clutch interrupts and the use of defensive CD’s to protect both the downed and the stomper both would get emphasized, and boost the opportunity for skilled play in the downed scenarios. Invuln stomps are particularly irritating to the extent that they completely eliminate the opportunity to punish a stomp that would otherwise be impossible to execute.

Self-rezz, in all of its forms, should also be gone. This seems pretty obvious to me, so I can’t see the need to go into more detail here.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Self-rezz, in all of its forms, should also be gone. This seems pretty obvious to me, so I can’t see the need to go into more detail here.

I dont agree that self-rez in any and all forms should be gone. Rezzing yourself when there is no fight to be had is a preferable alternative to waiting to bleed out before you can respawn.

But i do feel its to easy to rally. Much more of a WvW problem, however i can imagine its an issue in sPvP aswell.

It is my opinion that when someone is Finishing you off, you should not be able to rally on kills. No matter if its a mob or a player kill. Only from getting rezzed, or through player abilities used on you by allies.
I for one am sick and tired of winning a close fight with someone, only to have a mob or player die and suddenly he gets almost half his healthpool back and kills me.

The bar at which you can rally on a kill is also set far to low imo, it seems all it takes is having hit something once.

Haha..

thread #1: “OMG there is no teamplay!”

thread #2: “OMG why do classes have different downed state!??!”

My class xxx has good 1v1 downed state options.

My class yyy has good teamfight downed state options.

The collective mind of the GW2 playerbase is a mess..

Med.6150:

But that’s exactly what’s wrong with down state. Down state promotes mindless AoE and heavily favors specific setups. As soon as somebody goes down, whether it’s on your side or the opponent’s, you see AoE rain down on that body like no tomorrow.

This is an accepted way of “team fighting”, but in my opinion it’s simply bad design, because AoE is way too strong (obviously this is the root of the problem, but other than the promise of reducing that from a couple months ago, we haven’t seen a single change in that direction. In fact some single target abilities have since then been turned into piercing and cleaving attacks) and the only semi-counter is not to pile up.

This is much less a problem for professions who are playing range builds than it is for those who have to get right on the body to make sure it’s not being rezzed up. Usually the team fight is won by the team that can drain more resources from the other team in the rezz/stomp battle over a fallen team mate and that is utterly ridiculous.

If you manage to pressure your opponent hard enough in such a battle, you will then have the upper hand, even if you lose a team mate before them, because you will kill/weaken them all at once and thus preventing the enemy from reinforcing the node.

Right now, what you really want is a bunch of ranged professions that can cleave any downed player to hell and back. If you manage to kill them all, great, if not, at least you won’t be taking much damage, because you are nowhere near the downed player, so that you can keep reinforcing the node till you win.

If you notice a large majority of classes in “melee” have unique options that allow them to survive longer than they should. The one exception being warrior, which has THE most downed body cleave in the entire game bar none.

And the problem isn’t DPSing the body when they’re downed, it’s AoE when you’re the one rezzing. Thiefs with shortbow or sword mainhand destroy downed bodys. A full shatter from a mesmer can rip an enemy’s stability and allow them to CC the rezzers. If there is a player down with a warrior up it’s a good rule of thumb to never rez that player ever ever EVER because you’ll die in a flash.

Without AoE the way it is ATM the downed state WOULD be imbalanced and that would be an understatement. AoE isn’t so much a problem at high level play outside of the downed state because good players aren’t kittened enough to get AoE’d outside of when a player goes down. If there wasn’t AoE on a downed body a team would go unpunished for having a player go down.

And about the ranged thing, there’s a kitten good reason why people don’t only bring engis and necros to a team. It’s important to actually get the opposing player downed first without dying before you cleave.

Terrahero.9358:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Self-rezz, in all of its forms, should also be gone. This seems pretty obvious to me, so I can’t see the need to go into more detail here.

I dont agree that self-rez in any and all forms should be gone. Rezzing yourself when there is no fight to be had is a preferable alternative to waiting to bleed out before you can respawn.

But i do feel its to easy to rally. Much more of a WvW problem, however i can imagine its an issue in sPvP aswell.

It is my opinion that when someone is Finishing you off, you should not be able to rally on kills. No matter if its a mob or a player kill. Only from getting rezzed, or through player abilities used on you by allies.
I for one am sick and tired of winning a close fight with someone, only to have a mob or player die and suddenly he gets almost half his healthpool back and kills me.

The bar at which you can rally on a kill is also set far to low imo, it seems all it takes is having hit something once.

I was sloppy in my wording. I agree that Bandage should stay in downed state. I was referring more specifically to stuff like Toss Elixir R in saying that self-rezz should go.

Agree also on the rally system not working in ideal fashion. It probably would be more interesting for game play if it was just removed.

Vena.8436:

You need a utility but Elixir R is very good, and you’ll find it on just about every bar for that very reason (and a stun breaker), hence you cannot possibly buff the engineer downstate without also nerfing that skill into the ground lest you break their downstate completely.

More like, we haven’t got many other choices anyway as far as stun breakers go. The other stun breakers we’ve got are elixir S (near useless after the nerf), elixir U (if i’m using it for stun-breaking purposes, the side effects are quite bad), Rocket Boots (self-inflicted launch) and Utility Googles (a bit lackluster).
Anyway, that skill shouldn’t even matter. If our downed state is bad just because of that skill, then we should have it for free and not as an utility we must spend a slot for.
Since it isn’t so, it must be on par with the others.

Ostricheggs.3742:

And about the ranged thing, there’s a kitten good reason why people don’t only bring engis and necros to a team. It’s important to actually get the opposing player downed first without dying before you cleave.

People bring Engineers and Elementalists (S/D) as their main DPS now (on top of Mesmers obviously, but that’s another story). Anything else comes afterwards and considered to be sub-par. So yeah, over here on EU, the meta has strongly shifted towards range dps classes with massive AoE.

Someone needs to address that most of the biggest proponents of the downed state are the veteran GW2 players.

Why? Because they have put the time into discovering the nuances and ideal combinations in order to exploit the glaring flaws of it in order to make it work in their favor. The possibility of removing it disrupts the status quo of the meta and risks dislodging them from the top.

This by no means makes it a good mechanic. It has been terrible since beta and continues to be terrible.

Hammerheart.1426:

Someone needs to address that most of the biggest proponents of the downed state are the veteran GW2 players.

Why? Because they have put the time into discovering the nuances and ideal combinations in order to exploit the glaring flaws of it in order to make it work in their favor. The possibility of removing it disrupts the status quo of the meta and risks dislodging them from the top.

Someone needs to address that most of the proponents of jumping are veteran Quake players.

Why? Because they have put the time into discovering the nuances and ideal combinations in order to exploit the glaring flaws of it in order to make it work in their favor. The possibility of removing it disrupts the status quo of the meta and risks dislodging them from the top.

Why hello logical fallacy, how nice to see you show up.

Vena.8436:

Hammerheart.1426:

Someone needs to address that most of the biggest proponents of the downed state are the veteran GW2 players.

Why? Because they have put the time into discovering the nuances and ideal combinations in order to exploit the glaring flaws of it in order to make it work in their favor. The possibility of removing it disrupts the status quo of the meta and risks dislodging them from the top.

Someone needs to address that most of the proponents of jumping are veteran Quake players.

Why? Because they have put the time into discovering the nuances and ideal combinations in order to exploit the glaring flaws of it in order to make it work in their favor. The possibility of removing it disrupts the status quo of the meta and risks dislodging them from the top.

---

Why hello logical fallacy, how nice to see you show up.

Yes, let’s equate jumping, a mechanic that is present in all games, with a mechanic that is present in just one. A mechanic that has been debated since inception on its merits, that has divided the playerbase. I like that you poached the quake example from someone else in an entirely different thread. This isn’t Doom Vs Quake, or GW1 vs GW2, this is “why downstate is a bad mechanic.”

Hammerheart.1426:

Yes, let’s equate jumping, a mechanic that is present in all games, with a mechanic that is present in just one. A mechanic that has been debated since inception on its merits, that has divided the playerbase. I like that you poached the quake example from someone else in an entirely different thread. This isn’t Doom Vs Quake, or GW1 vs GW2, this is “why downstate is a bad mechanic.”

Except my reference was to the Quake I/Doom era where jumping was a “new thing” in Quake and quite often argued against by people who didn’t like its addition… where it was debated since its inception on its merits, that divided the player base. (That era has obviously long since passed but games today are still made with jumping and no jumping, and players have preferences.)

But please, try harder to make arguments grounded in fallacy. Any and all proponents of something are people who learned how to use it or can see its benefit; this is a staple of history, invention, and progress. As such it is not wise to make an argument of why someone’s opinion is invalid based on this argumentative stand-point as you are basically arguing on “I don’t like changes, any one who likes changes only likes them because they learned how they work!” If you want to structure an argument then do so without resulting to fallacy.

What you should do is explain: Why is downed state bad? Not: Why is the opinion of people I’m arguing against less valid than my own. The moment you devolve into the later, is the moment you have begun to circumvent the topic and plead for agreement from the audience on points that have little to do with the actual topic of discussion but begin to attack the presenters of the point and their opinions.

“X is bad! My opponents favor X only because they can use it to their advantage. This of course does not change X from being and having been bad! It should be revoked!” In this form you have attempted to invalidate opinions by stating blankly that something is bad without providing proof then again self-supporting your point on the basis that it is bad and that your opponents opinions, which you just established as selfish, are wrong and therefore anything they like must be bad. Its circular, self-fulfilling logical fallacy.

Any and all proponents of something are people who learned how to use it or can see its benefit; this is a staple of history, invention, and progress.

Nice sweeping generalization. Because we haven’t seen how the opinions of the most influential (GW2 Vets) can sway the uneducated to their side.

b b but muh fallacies

I didn’t attack any specific person, I pointed out a trend.

Hammerheart.1426:

Nice sweeping generalization. Because we haven’t seen how the opinions of the most influential (GW2 Vets) can sway the uneducated to their side.

I could say the same for “most influential GW1 vets” swaying the opinions of players too… people will be swayed when they tend to agree and are presented points with which they agree. Or are you trying to devalue the opinion of others on the basis of “sheeple”? I think you may want to pull your head out of whatever its stuck in…

Hammerheart.1426:

I didn’t attack any specific person, I pointed out a trend.

Nowhere did I state a person. You have done nothing to refute my statement but to make some childish change of my words into gibberish (another fallacy). But please, try harder to tell me why your attempts to devalue a general opinion as less than your own (or what you seem to like calling a trend) of those who have, by nature of agreeing with/liking it, learned to use it to their advantage. (Its not a “trend” that people will favor what they like and find useful, that’s called common sense. You haven’t found a “trend”, you’ve found common sense. Congratulations.)

I am quite certain that you have nothing to actually argue on aside from “my opinion is better than the opinion of others”… seeing as how the people actually having a discussion are building on pros and cons of the system.

Vena.8436:

In a game of skill, equal skill, 1v2 or 1v3 is impossible unless you fall into a case of massive hard counters.

If I interpretted you correctly, this is obviously true. One player versus two or more similarly skilled players has a snowballs chance in hell of winning, unless the combat facilitates it:
e.g. Strong Crowd-Control effects.

Vena.8436:

This is why anyone who’s talking about being unable to win “skilled” 1vXs is lying through their teeth when they use the word “skill”.

“Skilled” implies the player is more adept than his/her opponents. Your premise compared evenly skilled players. How does this conclusion correlate with your premise?

Vena.8436:

What they really mean is:

“Down state prevents me from curbstomping newbs with my leet skillz!”
or
“My class is absolutely OP, but this dumb down state prevents me from murdering countless foes!”

Down State makes defeating enemy players harder. So without Down State, skill would have a larger influence in defeating multiple opponents.

mjharrison.3209:

Downed state:

• interrupts the natural pace and flow of combat
• does not spectate well
• is not fun
• precludes skilled 1v2, 1v3 victories
• turns a close 4v4/3v3/2v2s into a whitewash because of ridiculous rally mechanics
• promotes instagibbing
• introduces imbalances that wouldn’t otherwise exist

DS should at least be an option on custom arenas. I’m willing to bet that DS-disabled arenas would be more popular than default.

yep, pretty much all of this

Hammerheart.1426:

Someone needs to address that most of the biggest proponents of the downed state are the veteran GW2 players.

Why? Because they have put the time into discovering the nuances and ideal combinations in order to exploit the glaring flaws of it in order to make it work in their favor. The possibility of removing it disrupts the status quo of the meta and risks dislodging them from the top.

This by no means makes it a good mechanic. It has been terrible since beta and continues to be terrible.

First of all.. top players will still be top players no matter the changes in the game simply because they figure out how to adapt to any change.

Also being a top player means among other things that he has figured out all the nuances of every aspect of a fight and knows how to react to each situation effectively. He doesnt have to exploit any flaws to stay on top.

Now the fact that downed state is terrible is simply your opinion and i could respect it if u provided a reasonable argument, but u didnt.

I m not even close to being a top player but i like the idea of the downed state. It has its flaws ofc and so does everything that is created by man. But it also adds something new that is at least interesting and can be improved.

but if you remove the ds what will you do with the skills that rezz allies ?

i dont know, personally i find that the ds is just a mini “second hp bar”. i will just like to see the ds go and make a second hp bar like in the fighting games. The ress abilities will be like a “heal” from the “ds hp” to normal hp.
if you kill something you rally
allies can “heal” you (f key) maybe? need to stand still ?
how the heal ability will interat with the ds bar ?
slowly depletes ?
out of combat ?
dont know too tired to think…. need to sleep………..

will love to read some opinions in the morning …. natti natti

Who ever think downstat is fine is talking BS

i just had a game 1 minute ago,

it was tpvp me warrior versus 1 necro and 1 ranger,

i took them both down and im almost down too so i placed a LB f1 before getting downed, so i can win this fight,

i do manage to get necro dead and rezed myself, guess what happened next?

ranger and ranger’s pet did so many damage to me that i only got to land 2 hit on him and i got downed again, i was like oh well he has like 1% left anyway,

guess what…that pet started rezing him, and i was like oh well, that pet cant rez forever anyway, it must be like guardians 3 which has a time limit,

but NO it kept rezing him forever, AND it was behind the ranger, so i can’t even interrupt it. tell me how this is not BS

Lighter.5631:

Who ever think downstat is fine is talking BS

i just had a game 1 minute ago,

it was tpvp me warrior versus 1 necro and 1 ranger,

i took them both down and im almost down too so i placed a LB f1 before getting downed, so i can win this fight,

i do manage to get necro dead and rezed myself, guess what happened next?

ranger and ranger’s pet did so many damage to me that i only got to land 2 hit on him and i got downed again, i was like oh well he has like 1% left anyway,

guess what…that pet started rezing him, and i was like oh well, that pet cant rez forever anyway, it must be like guardians 3 which has a time limit,

but NO it kept rezing him forever, AND it was behind the ranger, so i can’t even interrupt it. tell me how this is not BS

this is a very good example of how the downed state is working as intended.

congrats on downing and defeating the necromancer.
however, the ranger had the upper hand here.

accept your defeat.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Lighter.5631:

Who ever think downstat is fine is talking BS

i just had a game 1 minute ago,

it was tpvp me warrior versus 1 necro and 1 ranger,

i took them both down and im almost down too so i placed a LB f1 before getting downed, so i can win this fight,

i do manage to get necro dead and rezed myself, guess what happened next?

ranger and ranger’s pet did so many damage to me that i only got to land 2 hit on him and i got downed again, i was like oh well he has like 1% left anyway,

guess what…that pet started rezing him, and i was like oh well, that pet cant rez forever anyway, it must be like guardians 3 which has a time limit,

but NO it kept rezing him forever, AND it was behind the ranger, so i can’t even interrupt it. tell me how this is not BS

this is a very good example of how the downed state is working as intended.

congrats on downing and defeating the necromancer.
however, the ranger had the upper hand here.

accept your defeat.

I don’t know if really bad troll or just stupid. working as intended for rangers having upper hand with their OP downstat? great.

i guess the warrior been worst pvp class is also working as intended. and we don’t get shattered wing backpiece after completing 8 achievements is also working as intended also, Obviously, all you can say is “its working as intended” when its obviously not.

Oh guess what?! dragon balls achievement is no longer required is also working as intended

Lighter.5631:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Lighter.5631:

Who ever think downstat is fine is talking BS

i just had a game 1 minute ago,

it was tpvp me warrior versus 1 necro and 1 ranger,

i took them both down and im almost down too so i placed a LB f1 before getting downed, so i can win this fight,

i do manage to get necro dead and rezed myself, guess what happened next?

ranger and ranger’s pet did so many damage to me that i only got to land 2 hit on him and i got downed again, i was like oh well he has like 1% left anyway,

guess what…that pet started rezing him, and i was like oh well, that pet cant rez forever anyway, it must be like guardians 3 which has a time limit,

but NO it kept rezing him forever, AND it was behind the ranger, so i can’t even interrupt it. tell me how this is not BS

this is a very good example of how the downed state is working as intended.

congrats on downing and defeating the necromancer.
however, the ranger had the upper hand here.

accept your defeat.

I don’t know if really bad troll or just stupid. working as intended for rangers having upper hand with their OP downstat? great.

i guess the warrior been worst pvp class is also working as intended. and we don’t get shattered wing backpiece after completing 8 achievements is also working as intended also, Obviously, all you can say is “its working as intended” when its obviously not.

it was a 2 vs 1.
you were never intended to come out alive from that fight, let alone finish off one of them, if the 3 of u are of similar skill.

it is working as intended, whether you choose to accept it or not.

i suppose some people just get unhappy when things do not happen the way they wanted to happen.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Lighter.5631:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Lighter.5631:

Who ever think downstat is fine is talking BS

i just had a game 1 minute ago,

it was tpvp me warrior versus 1 necro and 1 ranger,

i took them both down and im almost down too so i placed a LB f1 before getting downed, so i can win this fight,

i do manage to get necro dead and rezed myself, guess what happened next?

ranger and ranger’s pet did so many damage to me that i only got to land 2 hit on him and i got downed again, i was like oh well he has like 1% left anyway,

guess what…that pet started rezing him, and i was like oh well, that pet cant rez forever anyway, it must be like guardians 3 which has a time limit,

but NO it kept rezing him forever, AND it was behind the ranger, so i can’t even interrupt it. tell me how this is not BS

this is a very good example of how the downed state is working as intended.

congrats on downing and defeating the necromancer.
however, the ranger had the upper hand here.

accept your defeat.

I don’t know if really bad troll or just stupid. working as intended for rangers having upper hand with their OP downstat? great.

i guess the warrior been worst pvp class is also working as intended. and we don’t get shattered wing backpiece after completing 8 achievements is also working as intended also, Obviously, all you can say is “its working as intended” when its obviously not.

it was a 2 vs 1.
you were never intended to come out alive from that fight, let alone finish off one of them, if the 3 of u are of similar skill.

it is working as intended, whether you choose to accept it or not.

i suppose some people just get unhappy when things do not happen the way they wanted to happen.

It was 2v1 is not a freaking excuse, do you have any logic at all or do you want me to teach you how to think? Let’s even say that Sure i won’t survive a 2v1, the fight resets when i rezed myself by killing necro from 2v1 to 1vdownstated ranger.

what you say? “i suppose some people just get unhappy when things do not happen the way they wanted to happen”? you should really go see a doctor and check your braincells. Its not “the way they wanted to happen”, it’s “the way it should have happen if its BALANCED and FAIR.”

Oh and whos the one who blamed anet for not fixing “things” ?
it’s obviously the guy who gets unhappy when things do not happen the way they wanted to happen(you), right? i guess i only have one comment for you :“working as intended, Bro”

Lighter.5631:

the fight resets when i rezed myself by killing necro from 2v1 to 1vdownstated ranger.

incorrect.

the fight was far from over.
the ranger, though downed, is not defeated yet.

now, imagine how the ranger would feel, if, moments from finishing you off, your team mate came and revived you, brought you back to your feet, and proceed to stomp the ranger down.

once people accept that the down state is part of the game, they will come to accept their glorious defeat in battle.

I love this “working as intended” attitude, it really shows how awesome the community is.

The downstate is a safety net, a crutch, designed to give players hope because the fact is, they just got owned.

This is the only pvp game that discourages players from engaging in an against-the-odds fight because this magic downstate bridges the gap between player skill and death, allowing lesser skilled players to remain in the fight. Don’t bother challenging yourself, the game will reward the downed players. Manage to overcome your own class weakness and down two players by yourself? Enjoy getting feared by one downed player, and getting to watch another’s puppy lick it back to life. Ridiculous.

Another thing, “downing” someone is probably the least fun term ever in a game where you are supposed to kill the opposing players. It sounds politically correct, it sounds weak. Its something five year olds say when they playfight each other. You might as well say, “I got you.”

Med.6150:

But that’s exactly what’s wrong with down state. Down state promotes mindless AoE and heavily favors specific setups. As soon as somebody goes down, whether it’s on your side or the opponent’s, you see AoE rain down on that body like no tomorrow.

This is an accepted way of “team fighting”, but in my opinion it’s simply bad design, because AoE is way too strong (obviously this is the root of the problem, but other than the promise of reducing that from a couple months ago, we haven’t seen a single change in that direction. In fact some single target abilities have since then been turned into piercing and cleaving attacks) and the only semi-counter is not to pile up.

This is much less a problem for professions who are playing range builds than it is for those who have to get right on the body to make sure it’s not being rezzed up. Usually the team fight is won by the team that can drain more resources from the other team in the rezz/stomp battle over a fallen team mate and that is utterly ridiculous.

If you manage to pressure your opponent hard enough in such a battle, you will then have the upper hand, even if you lose a team mate before them, because you will kill/weaken them all at once and thus preventing the enemy from reinforcing the node.

Right now, what you really want is a bunch of ranged professions that can cleave any downed player to hell and back. If you manage to kill them all, great, if not, at least you won’t be taking much damage, because you are nowhere near the downed player, so that you can keep reinforcing the node till you win.

Couldn’t explain it better. I wonder when the AoE-Nerfs will find their way into the patch, as A-Net had promised us ages ago.

because the downed state is considered within the context of the overall class. so strong ‘up state’ classes have weak downed state.

or because bad downed states are bad, and nothing about them has ever made much sense anyways, so why not?

ryston.7640:

because the downed state is considered within the context of the overall class. so strong ‘up state’ classes have weak downed state.

or because bad downed states are bad, and nothing about them has ever made much sense anyways, so why not?

To jump on the sarcasm-train: That’s why warriors have this insane downstate, while eles only can vapor-form to anywhere, including portals…

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

ryston.7640:

because the downed state is considered within the context of the overall class. so strong ‘up state’ classes have weak downed state.

or because bad downed states are bad, and nothing about them has ever made much sense anyways, so why not?

To jump on the sarcasm-train: That’s why warriors have this insane downstate, while eles only can vapor-form to anywhere, including portals…

wow, while in downed state vapor form, they can use portals and escape even further? ???? O_O

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

ryston.7640:

because the downed state is considered within the context of the overall class. so strong ‘up state’ classes have weak downed state.

or because bad downed states are bad, and nothing about them has ever made much sense anyways, so why not?

To jump on the sarcasm-train: That’s why warriors have this insane downstate, while eles only can vapor-form to anywhere, including portals…

hey now, ele used to have the worst downed state, but then everyone complained and suggested anet nerf the other downed states to be more like ele (since nobody liked downed states)

so anet buffed ele downed, and most of the people who still play dont mind downed state, therfore anets decisions are popular.

Hammerheart.1426:

Someone needs to address that most of the biggest proponents of the downed state are the veteran GW2 players.

Hammerheart, what you have is a conspiracy, which means: any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

While it follows a logical train of thinking to suspect Elite players of defending Down State due to fear of losing their title, it is both highly unlikely and destructive.

It is my understanding that supporters of Down State do so because they acknowledge the associated positives. They may also acknowledge the negatives, but feel the positives outweigh these negatives due to logical reasoning and/or emotional investment.

If you’ve read some of my previous posts, you probably know I’m biased against Down State. My motive is the satisfaction I get from winning (strange I know) – a feeling tainted by the inclusion of the Down mechanic, because it’s unsporting to finish a disadvantaged opponent, aggravating how they stall and spit in your face when losing, and just plain insulting when they get back up despite your keen effort.

When you dig beneath the surface, all Down State offers is Depth. That’s not to belittle Depth – Depth is hugely important to progression in games, but (counter-intuitive to its design), Down State hurts the potency of combat; the very thing it seeks to advance.

It’s like if you have an apple, but (without your consent) someone trades half of your apple for half a banana. This is good because you get greater diversity! But what if you don’t like bananas? Or just preferred the full apple? Well too bad! They mashed them both together so now it’s all or nothing! ^^

Downed state is the only mechanic making the pvp in the game worth playing, imo.

Most people asking for the removal of it are hot join heroes, that don’t want to stomp to get their glory.

Rerroll.9083:

Downed state is the only mechanic making the pvp in the game worth playing, imo.

Most people asking for the removal of it are hot join heroes, that don’t want to stomp to get their glory.

Downstate is a innovative mechanic and should never be removed. But it’s not balanced at the moment. That’s what many ppl raging about.

well i agree that downed state is not very balanced at the moment. some balancing would help!

Why is a player allowed to heal themselves in a downed state? Why is it fun to stand on the ground; not being able to move and slowly healing yourself?

Why is a player allowed to interrupt a stomp? What does this do other than delay the inevitable in certain situations? Delay death long enough so that your friend can cover up your bad play?

Why is a player allowed to rally from a downed state when one of their targets that they hit is downed? Doesn’t this promote bad play by making players tag as many targets as possible to increase the chances of rallying? Some classes can abuse this more than others by delaying their death long enough.

Why is a mechanic that promotes unskilled play even allowed to exist in a competitive environment?

Calae.1738:

Why is a player allowed to heal themselves in a downed state? Why is it fun to stand on the ground; not being able to move and slowly healing yourself?

Why is a player allowed to interrupt a stomp? What does this do other than delay the inevitable in certain situations? Delay death long enough so that your friend can cover up your bad play?

Why is a player allowed to rally from a downed state when one of their targets that they hit is downed? Doesn’t this promote bad play by making players tag as many targets as possible to increase the chances of rallying? Some classes can abuse this more than others by delaying their death long enough.

Why is a mechanic that promotes unskilled play even allowed to exist in a competitive environment?

“Downed state promotes unskilled play”

this made my day

My counter-suggestion: don’t try to change things that you don’t understand

Calae.1738:

Delay death long enough so that your friend can cover up your bad play?

Why is a player allowed to rally from a downed state when one of their targets that they hit is downed?

Why is a mechanic that promotes unskilled play even allowed to exist in a competitive environment?

you got it all wrong.
this is called team work.

Calae.1738:

Why is a player allowed to heal themselves in a downed state?

Simple. Imagine you win a downed v downed 1v1. Would you rather have to sit there and bleed out before waiting an additional 15s to respawn so the guy you just killed can leisurely walk back and either stomp you if you are still bleeding or de-cap the node if you are already dead.

Calae.1738:

Why is it fun to stand on the ground; not being able to move and slowly healing yourself?

Lovely straw man you have there, but healing yourself is not the only thing you can do in downed state.

Calae.1738:

Why is a player allowed to interrupt a stomp?

What would the purpose of downed state be if they couldn’t? They would just get stomped every time defeating the purpose of the mechanic which is to give an opportunity for match turning play with clutch revives.

Calae.1738:

What does this do other than delay the inevitable in certain situations?

In situations where defeat is “inevitable” it isn’t really a problem. They die anyway.

Calae.1738:

Delay death long enough so that your friend can cover up your bad play?

Your argument is based on the implied premise that in order to be downed you must play badly. This is obviously false. Suppose that you are downed in a 1v2 scenario, but you chewed the 2 assaulters down to 10% health each in the process. Did you get out played? Nope. Should you get the opportunity to reset that fight as a 2v2 if reinforcements arrive fast enough? Seems fair to me.

Calae.1738:

Why is a player allowed to rally from a downed state when one of their targets that they hit is downed? Doesn’t this promote bad play by making players tag as many targets as possible to increase the chances of rallying? Some classes can abuse this more than others by delaying their death long enough.

This is actually a decent point. One of the balance issues with downed state is the Rally system. Frankly, if they removed rallys and made it a heal up or die scenario, then I think it would make for more dynamic combat, but I suppose that is still subject to debate at this point.

Calae.1738:

Why is a mechanic that promotes unskilled play even allowed to exist in a competitive environment?

I’m not sure what the dodge-spamming builds you are apparently referencing have to do with downed state (its a joke. think about it), but Downed State mechanics actually go a long way toward promoting skilled play, specifically by promoting more team oriented tactics. Every down is a critical hinge point in a match, and the team that manages down state occurences better will almost always win a match. The balance isn’t there yet, but Downed State is a good component of this game. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.

Downed State mechanics actually go a long way toward promoting skilled play, specifically by promoting more team oriented tactics.

What you call team oriented tactics I call bad players covering up the mistakes of bad players.

A more skillful approach to team play are tools that players use to prevent their allies from taking damage.

Calae.1738:

Downed State mechanics actually go a long way toward promoting skilled play, specifically by promoting more team oriented tactics.

What you call team oriented tactics I call bad players covering up the mistakes of bad players.

A more skillful approach to team play are tools that players use to prevent their allies from taking damage.

We can agree to disagree on this. It is my opinion that there are a limited number of tools available in this game to prevent allies from taking damage and a number of damage skills/combos that are near impossible to mitigate in this fasion by design. Furthermore, the mitigation tools that are useful in supporting allies are very highly concentrated in a relative few classes making it impractical to try to make it work that way (again my opinion). The core design of the game is based around downed state being there, and if you throw it out in favor of a system more like the one that you re advocating it either introduces far more imbalance than is currently present or necessitates a ground up re-design of pretty much the whole combat system.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Calae.1738:

Downed State mechanics actually go a long way toward promoting skilled play, specifically by promoting more team oriented tactics.

What you call team oriented tactics I call bad players covering up the mistakes of bad players.

A more skillful approach to team play are tools that players use to prevent their allies from taking damage.

We can agree to disagree on this. It is my opinion that there are a limited number of tools available in this game to prevent allies from taking damage and a number of damage skills/combos that are near impossible to mitigate in this fasion by design. Furthermore, the mitigation tools that are useful in supporting allies are very highly concentrated in a relative few classes making it impractical to try to make it work that way (again my opinion). The core design of the game is based around downed state being there, and if you throw it out in favor of a system more like the one that you re advocating it either introduces far more imbalance than is currently present or necessitates a ground up re-design of pretty much the whole combat system.

A lot of skills would definitely have to change in the absence of the downed state. Damage values and base health/armor will have to be re-calculated.

Preventing someone from doing damage to your ally isn’t just about creating a shield. You can stun, cripple, immobilize, chill, blind, fear, pull, daze, knock back and knock down.

The tools are already there.

Calae.1738:

A lot of skills would definitely have to change in the absence of the downed state. Damage values and base health/armor will have to be re-calculated.

oh, nothing will be changed. because downed state will not be removed.