Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

Mak.2657:

I think on some dungeon mobs encounters pretty easy to keep 3 phantasms up.

I don’t count CoF p1 as high end PvE.

Arah, fractal 50 are better examples. In Arah every boss has an aoe that instantly destroys them. In fractal 50 you got archdiviner on first floor IF his spinning projectiles are not hitting the phantasms. Svanir shaman maybe higher uptime, but he still kills your phantasms with autoattack swings. That’s about it.

Even at some Arah encounters possible to keep 3 phantasms up most time and soloing it. Final p1 boss e.g. For Lupi DE more pref cause reflect OP damage and his mechanics.
Or for example Lvl 50 Thaumanova Fractal Mesmer Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfyggu8QRY&t=419

Ravenmoon.5318:

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone

Your argument is poorly supported. Before you cry about thieves status you should acknowledge the strength of S/D. S/D acrobatic thieves have the most accessibility to evades/dodges than any other builds in game, and many warrior hammer skills have the most obvious animations in game. So you really are just making yourself look bad by saying you get caught in stun chain and was unable to break out of it.

Back to mesmer, I want to re-emphasize mesmer’s role in boon stripping as Selya suggested. We all know that mesmer’s have the highest accessibility to boon strip, so why isn’t mesmer dominating celestial meta? Mesmers should be the nemesis for builds that heavily relied on boons, yet mesmers are rarely seen in teams. Maybe its because mesmer’s boon strip can’t match the speed of boon reapplication, or maybe the need to defensive peel far outweighs ways to make opponent vulnerable. Either way the state of celestial meta plus lack of mesmers shows that mesmer has become lackluster in fulfilling its role in boon stripping.

There are still a lot of underused mesmer traits, perhaps future updates can try to give them more purpose. A good example will be changing furious interruption to corrupt boons on interrupt; bountiful disillusion allows illusions to steal boon for mesmer when destroyed (with CD) etc.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Ravenmoon.5318:

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone

Your argument is poorly supported. Before you cry about thieves status you should acknowledge the strength of S/D. S/D acrobatic thieves have the most accessibility to evades/dodges than any other builds in game, and many warrior hammer skills have the most obvious animations in game. So you really are just making yourself look bad by saying you get caught in stun chain and was unable to break out of it.

Back to mesmer, I want to re-emphasize mesmer’s role in boon stripping as Selya suggested. We all know that mesmer’s have the highest accessibility to boon strip, so why isn’t mesmer dominating celestial meta? Mesmers should be the nemesis for builds that heavily relied on boons, yet mesmers are rarely seen in teams. Maybe its because mesmer’s boon strip can’t match the speed of boon reapplication, or maybe the need to defensive peel far outweighs ways to make opponent vulnerable. Either way the state of celestial meta plus lack of mesmers shows that mesmer has become lackluster in fulfilling its role in boon stripping.

There are still a lot of underused mesmer traits, perhaps future updates can try to give them more purpose. A good example will be changing furious interruption to corrupt boons on interrupt; bountiful disillusion allows illusions to steal boon for mesmer when destroyed (with CD) etc.

I quite like that idea for Furious Interuption, nice thought and not crazy OP.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Ravenmoon.5318:

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone

Your argument is poorly supported. Before you cry about thieves status you should acknowledge the strength of S/D. S/D acrobatic thieves have the most accessibility to evades/dodges than any other builds in game, and many warrior hammer skills have the most obvious animations in game. So you really are just making yourself look bad by saying you get caught in stun chain and was unable to break out of it.

Back to mesmer, I want to re-emphasize mesmer’s role in boon stripping as Selya suggested. We all know that mesmer’s have the highest accessibility to boon strip, so why isn’t mesmer dominating celestial meta? Mesmers should be the nemesis for builds that heavily relied on boons, yet mesmers are rarely seen in teams. Maybe its because mesmer’s boon strip can’t match the speed of boon reapplication, or maybe the need to defensive peel far outweighs ways to make opponent vulnerable. Either way the state of celestial meta plus lack of mesmers shows that mesmer has become lackluster in fulfilling its role in boon stripping.

There are still a lot of underused mesmer traits, perhaps future updates can try to give them more purpose. A good example will be changing furious interruption to corrupt boons on interrupt; bountiful disillusion allows illusions to steal boon for mesmer when destroyed (with CD) etc.

You must be a terribad hambow if you can’t takeout SD thief that decided to attack you o.O I have hambow too and have yet to be bested by a punny thief, lol. In this duel it is the warrior having the upper hand. The thief has to go lengths to defeat the warrior.

All you have to do is to make that thief waste that initiative and then predict where they’ll shadow step so you can CC the crap out of that spot. And you can waste SD thieve’s initiative just by staying in 1 freaking place.

Also you can lure the thief to dodge by sheathing your weapon thus interrupting your casts gaining minor cooldowns. Did you even know you can do that?

If you really want to be an kitten to that thief you can change the bow with axe/shield …

Tbh good sd\d thief have upper hand vs hambow. Good use of usual 1-2 stunbreakers, interrupting steal (rip stability), bunch of dodges helps. Though can be time consuming deal.

Mak.2657:

Tbh good sd\d thief have upper hand vs hambow. Good use of usual 1-2 stunbreakers, interrupting steal (rip stability), bunch of dodges helps. Though can be time consuming deal.

So then its a matter of player skill rather than just thief built OP as many people in here would have you believe. I’ve been defeated by hambows and i’ve defeated hambows with champion titles and whatnot. I’ve defeated most hambows for the simple reason that they mash them keys as soon as I shadowstep away (i suppose they think i went invis) … its really fun to watch .. and then I have free time hitting them with the whirl I steal from them.

Then again i have thieves dropping all their junk and spamming #3 on my hambow before I even buff the boons and when they run out of initiative I have over 60% remaining HP and I stunchain for the kill.

Having immobilize on cripple is huge boon however. If you catch a thief with heal and shadowstep in cooldown, you win.

Usually good sd/d always have Infiltrator’s Return up and even rooted can make a distance for safety. Inf signet + Infiltrator’s Return for stun break. Or steal daze to stop chain stun. Just personal experience though.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Ravenmoon.5318:

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone

Your argument is poorly supported. Before you cry about thieves status you should acknowledge the strength of S/D. S/D acrobatic thieves have the most accessibility to evades/dodges than any other builds in game, and many warrior hammer skills have the most obvious animations in game. So you really are just making yourself look bad by saying you get caught in stun chain and was unable to break out of it.

Back to mesmer, I want to re-emphasize mesmer’s role in boon stripping as Selya suggested. We all know that mesmer’s have the highest accessibility to boon strip, so why isn’t mesmer dominating celestial meta? Mesmers should be the nemesis for builds that heavily relied on boons, yet mesmers are rarely seen in teams. Maybe its because mesmer’s boon strip can’t match the speed of boon reapplication, or maybe the need to defensive peel far outweighs ways to make opponent vulnerable. Either way the state of celestial meta plus lack of mesmers shows that mesmer has become lackluster in fulfilling its role in boon stripping.

There are still a lot of underused mesmer traits, perhaps future updates can try to give them more purpose. A good example will be changing furious interruption to corrupt boons on interrupt; bountiful disillusion allows illusions to steal boon for mesmer when destroyed (with CD) etc.

great post

Now let’s try to stay on topic, this thread is about Mesmers, not warriors vs thieves.

Mak.2657:

Zenith.7301:

Mak.2657:

I think on some dungeon mobs encounters pretty easy to keep 3 phantasms up.

I don’t count CoF p1 as high end PvE.

Arah, fractal 50 are better examples. In Arah every boss has an aoe that instantly destroys them. In fractal 50 you got archdiviner on first floor IF his spinning projectiles are not hitting the phantasms. Svanir shaman maybe higher uptime, but he still kills your phantasms with autoattack swings. That’s about it.

Even at some Arah encounters possible to keep 3 phantasms up most time and soloing it. Final p1 boss e.g. For Lupi DE more pref cause reflect OP damage and his mechanics.
Or for example Lvl 50 Thaumanova Fractal Mesmer Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfyggu8QRY&t=419

Lupi’s kick will destroy your phantasms. That Thaumanova solo is one of the betetr examples, but you also have to realize it was a solo, for example the ooze won’t hit anything that’s not melee range, and the endboss people stack melee while someone runs the bombs out.

But do Urban instead, different story. Same for Dredge or Volcanic fractal. Arah p2 endboss aoe will destroy phantasms, as will the 2nd boss in that path using the explosive barrel. In arah p2 even the phantasms don’t benefit from in phase status on final boss so they do 0 damage to the boss, making deceptive evasion betetr since you’re the only source of damage.

Rome.7124:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Ravenmoon.5318:

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone

Your argument is poorly supported. Before you cry about thieves status you should acknowledge the strength of S/D. S/D acrobatic thieves have the most accessibility to evades/dodges than any other builds in game, and many warrior hammer skills have the most obvious animations in game. So you really are just making yourself look bad by saying you get caught in stun chain and was unable to break out of it.

Back to mesmer, I want to re-emphasize mesmer’s role in boon stripping as Selya suggested. We all know that mesmer’s have the highest accessibility to boon strip, so why isn’t mesmer dominating celestial meta? Mesmers should be the nemesis for builds that heavily relied on boons, yet mesmers are rarely seen in teams. Maybe its because mesmer’s boon strip can’t match the speed of boon reapplication, or maybe the need to defensive peel far outweighs ways to make opponent vulnerable. Either way the state of celestial meta plus lack of mesmers shows that mesmer has become lackluster in fulfilling its role in boon stripping.

There are still a lot of underused mesmer traits, perhaps future updates can try to give them more purpose. A good example will be changing furious interruption to corrupt boons on interrupt; bountiful disillusion allows illusions to steal boon for mesmer when destroyed (with CD) etc.

great post

Now let’s try to stay on topic, this thread is about Mesmers, not warriors vs thieves.

Celestial meta ain’t pushing mesmers out, berzerker thieves are.

Zenith.7301:

Mak.2657:

Zenith.7301:

Mak.2657:

I think on some dungeon mobs encounters pretty easy to keep 3 phantasms up.

I don’t count CoF p1 as high end PvE.

Arah, fractal 50 are better examples. In Arah every boss has an aoe that instantly destroys them. In fractal 50 you got archdiviner on first floor IF his spinning projectiles are not hitting the phantasms. Svanir shaman maybe higher uptime, but he still kills your phantasms with autoattack swings. That’s about it.

Even at some Arah encounters possible to keep 3 phantasms up most time and soloing it. Final p1 boss e.g. For Lupi DE more pref cause reflect OP damage and his mechanics.
Or for example Lvl 50 Thaumanova Fractal Mesmer Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfyggu8QRY&t=419

Lupi’s kick will destroy your phantasms. That Thaumanova solo is one of the betetr examples, but you also have to realize it was a solo, for example the ooze won’t hit anything that’s not melee range, and the endboss people stack melee while someone runs the bombs out.

But do Urban instead, different story. Same for Dredge or Volcanic fractal. Arah p2 endboss aoe will destroy phantasms, as will the 2nd boss in that path using the explosive barrel. In arah p2 even the phantasms don’t benefit from in phase status on final boss so they do 0 damage to the boss, making deceptive evasion betetr since you’re the only source of damage.

Rome.7124:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Ravenmoon.5318:

You know, I know how to dodge properly, but the hambow need to stunchain you once. And it has happened to me before, and it is not pleasent. 1 stunchain is all it takes to kill a thief

Wow, such OP. Nerf … thieves should go down after a single normal attack!!!!!!!11eleveone

Your argument is poorly supported. Before you cry about thieves status you should acknowledge the strength of S/D. S/D acrobatic thieves have the most accessibility to evades/dodges than any other builds in game, and many warrior hammer skills have the most obvious animations in game. So you really are just making yourself look bad by saying you get caught in stun chain and was unable to break out of it.

Back to mesmer, I want to re-emphasize mesmer’s role in boon stripping as Selya suggested. We all know that mesmer’s have the highest accessibility to boon strip, so why isn’t mesmer dominating celestial meta? Mesmers should be the nemesis for builds that heavily relied on boons, yet mesmers are rarely seen in teams. Maybe its because mesmer’s boon strip can’t match the speed of boon reapplication, or maybe the need to defensive peel far outweighs ways to make opponent vulnerable. Either way the state of celestial meta plus lack of mesmers shows that mesmer has become lackluster in fulfilling its role in boon stripping.

There are still a lot of underused mesmer traits, perhaps future updates can try to give them more purpose. A good example will be changing furious interruption to corrupt boons on interrupt; bountiful disillusion allows illusions to steal boon for mesmer when destroyed (with CD) etc.

great post

Now let’s try to stay on topic, this thread is about Mesmers, not warriors vs thieves.

Celestial meta ain’t pushing mesmers out, berzerker thieves are.

Well someone made a post earlier about roles. I think t the biggest issue is any role a mesmer might fill is better filled by another class. What role "should"mesmers fill? Most would say DPS roamer. What is keeping mesmers from filling this role? I say thieves. We could fight for changes to thieves, the only thing i would like to is consume plasma.

The real problem still is any role a mesmer “could” fill is filled 100x better by another class wirh none of the weaknesses inherent in the mesmer class.

Zenith.7301:

Celestial meta ain’t pushing mesmers out, berzerker thieves are.

Funny I gave you this connotation. I’m saying mesmers are unable to affect celestial meta significantly, NOT celestial meta is pushing mesmer out.

That being said, the reason why I focused on boon strip before is exactly what many suggested here: mesmers’ DPS roamer role is easily filled by other class. Not necessary better filled, but easier. So any idea on what can be done about mesmer’s DPS roamer role other than providing better mesmer/thief matchup option? Also can anyone suggests specifically on what can be done to improve shatter mesmer/thief matchup?

So long as thieves exist as they are, no other berserker power build except for one that directly counters thieves like mediguard will be able to exist.

The obvious fix is to address the thief problem. Mesmer copes just fine against other cele classes.

It’s just a problem with a class like the thief, which has absurd map mobility, on top of easy resets, stealth stomps, easy access to blind and stealth, and having the burst they have usable so frequently because their burst consists of a skill you only need stealth for, and which enemies can’t see so at best they can guess as to how to counter it, and that doesn’t even address steal+backstab or shadowshot+backstab.

They went ahead and took a hammer to shatter condi rangers, nerfing the 50% endurance regen down to 25% from 50%, yet a thief is still able to chain larcenous strikes, has a low cd heal that cures conditions (as all thief heals do, unlike most classes), and if he wanted to has feline grace for even more stupid dodge spam.

I just don’t get how they have nerfed so many other classes for ease of access to certain skills (ride the lightning for ele mobility up to 40 ridiculous seconds), yet the most spam-friendly class remains intact.

Zenith.7301:

Mak.2657:

Zenith.7301:

Mak.2657:

I think on some dungeon mobs encounters pretty easy to keep 3 phantasms up.

I don’t count CoF p1 as high end PvE.

Arah, fractal 50 are better examples. In Arah every boss has an aoe that instantly destroys them. In fractal 50 you got archdiviner on first floor IF his spinning projectiles are not hitting the phantasms. Svanir shaman maybe higher uptime, but he still kills your phantasms with autoattack swings. That’s about it.

Even at some Arah encounters possible to keep 3 phantasms up most time and soloing it. Final p1 boss e.g. For Lupi DE more pref cause reflect OP damage and his mechanics.
Or for example Lvl 50 Thaumanova Fractal Mesmer Solo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYfyggu8QRY&t=419

Lupi’s kick will destroy your phantasms. That Thaumanova solo is one of the betetr examples, but you also have to realize it was a solo, for example the ooze won’t hit anything that’s not melee range, and the endboss people stack melee while someone runs the bombs out.

But do Urban instead, different story. Same for Dredge or Volcanic fractal. Arah p2 endboss aoe will destroy phantasms, as will the 2nd boss in that path using the explosive barrel. In arah p2 even the phantasms don’t benefit from in phase status on final boss so they do 0 damage to the boss, making deceptive evasion betetr since you’re the only source of damage.

Yep, that is one of reason I said DE (Deceptive Evasion) is preferable for Lupi – illusions die fast + u need illusions. But mostly because of Lupi mechanics: numbers of projectiles of his attack “Frenzied blast” (if I recall right) depends on number of enemies. I.e. more illusions = more projectiles = more reflected damage. This is much bigger contributor to damage than CP. But even during Lupi phase 1 you can keep all phantasms up (swordsmans for example – they keep some distance and have some evade frames on leap attack). And anyway u should keep agro on youself, not on phantasms.
At Arah p2 Alphard (2nd boss I think) u want pretty much reflect mantra builds (without CP). This barrel bomb spawns only on successfuly landed projectile attack. So if u would use good positioning and reflects(wich negates most of others Alphard attacks too ) – bomb even will not spawn.
Some ppl prefer to do solo. Though I prefer to do Arah on warr (did long time ago to be correct, dropped it now).
I’m just saying that there are bunch of encounters where I don’t want to spawn clones.

Yeah that’s fair, though I also suspect most people don’t want to spam clones because outside distracting people in pvp, clones are useless for anything else.

In beta at some point clones did 25% of the mesmer’s damage with their attack chains. So they were actually a damage source you wanted to keep. People would also appreciate clones if crippling dissipation and on clone death traits were baseline.

A lot of mesmers skills are wasted skills because they are just low damage attacks that spawn a clone that does nothing besides being shatter fodder, and shatter itself is a niche mechanic only useful in small scale pvp and still ripe with its own issues there.

Here’s to hoping Heart of Thorns takes a good revamp of the clone/phantasms and shatter mechanics and replaces the horrendous minor and major traits the class has.

IT’s an L2p Issue. the f.. end omg.

Can you elaborate more on how to address thief problem or how to make mesmer more favorable in those matchups? Sure there are condi builds here and there but most thief builds are funneled into zerker builds like mesmers, so you should consider making a balanced judgement that doesn’t involve in nerfing a class into the ground.

Zenith.7301:

Here’s to hoping Heart of Thorns takes a good revamp of the clone/phantasms and shatter mechanics and replaces the horrendous minor and major traits the class has.

I would be appreciative if devs move DE to major adept in dueling

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Can you elaborate more on how to address thief problem or how to make mesmer more favorable in those matchups? Sure there are condi builds here and there but most thief builds are funneled into zerker builds like mesmers, so you should consider making a balanced judgement that doesn’t involve in nerfing a class into the ground.

The class does not just hardcounter mesmer, it hardcounters most other power specs that don’t involve a guardian.

It needs nerfs to damage and mobility (particularly stealth access), give it more self heals and group support in return.

Stealth and initiative were just done badly, stealth is too accessible and has few counters, and initiative has turned it into a class that can just spam spike skills way too easily while a class like an elementalist of similar HP has fire grab sitting on a 32 second cd traited. How can you possibly balance a class with so much mobility and spike yet it’s no squishier than other glass specs and outperforms them in virtually all aspects of a glass roamer role.

People like to say thief is squishy, but it’s just not true with their current access to evades/stealth, prots, and blinds. It has far more tools for evading damage, and damage evasion has always been better than damage mitigation — damage evasion gets you out of being trained to the ground, while another class can even have 20k hp, a second life bar, and still be easier to train and shut down than a class with half that health.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Can you elaborate more on how to address thief problem or how to make mesmer more favorable in those matchups? Sure there are condi builds here and there but most thief builds are funneled into zerker builds like mesmers, so you should consider making a balanced judgement that doesn’t involve in nerfing a class into the ground.

My suggestions, centering around the Thief vs Shatter(and Lockdown) mesmer matchup. Naturally, feel free to disagree.

1) Nerf consume plasma to something more manageable, like giving 3 random boons for 5 seconds. This would literally affect only the Thief vs Mesmer matchup.

2) Move Deceptive Evasion to an adept trait (or make it a secondary class mechanic that can be toggled on and off – whatever floats your boat).

This opens up at least 2 more points that the mesmer will likely spend in domination, allowing the mesmer to get a grandmaster trait there. So, buff the grandmaster traits to:

3) Power block: On a successful interrupt on a thief, reduce initiative recharge rate by X% for Y seconds (X and Y to be determined) OR remove X amount of initiative from thief. Currently, power block has no effect on thieves if I recall correctly.

Or if we want to wait till HoT: On successful interrupt, power block also inflicts Slow on opponents (including thieves, of course).

4) Confounding suggestions: This one has always been a little odd, imo. It’s not bad by any means, it’s just…self-contradictory. Some people seem to like it as it is, but it may be worth looking at either removing the stun and making the daze increase larger, or removing the daze duration increase and making the stun guaranteed.
—-
With 1), 2), 3), and maybe 4), a 6/2/6/0/0 lockdown or 6/2/0/0/6 mesmer will have a much better chance against thieves. The thief will still have a lot of advantages over the mesmer, but the mesmer will have a better chance of winning as an interrupt/daze can be the setup necessary for a big burst. These changes wouldn’t affect thief vs other classes, and would also give (from my perspective anyway) some buffs to mesmers that wouldn’t make them crazy op.

Finally:

5) Feline grace on the S/D thief probably needs to be looked at. I don’t think mesmers are alone in stating how little counterplay there is to it. Maybe reduce the amount of endurance returned on a successful dodge? This would obviously affect more than the thief vs mesmer matchup.

Edit: It is worth noting that even though these suggestions may help the Thief vs Mesmer matchup, there is still the much, much more tricky question of how to handle the situation of thieves pushing almost every other berserker class in the game, such S/F eles and pew pew rangers, to the fringes of the meta. You obviously don’t want to overnerf the thief, but other zerker classes deserve some play too.

Sword/Dagger in general is just a terrible concept. It’s like pistol whip in that it’ll always be either ridiculous or totally useless.

Well that’s the initiative system. You spam the best skill peppered with the occasional, less used one.

The problem is they made a skill that evades, steals boons, and hits for 4k+ damage, instead of spreading that utility across the s/d set so they would actually have to choose what to spend initiative on.

Similar concept with d/p and d/d. You only press your 4/5, gain stealth, and use a big burst skill that costs no initiative.

It’s almost like thieves are rarely starved out of initiative because there’s so little to spend it on and even if the one skill they use is costly, the regen makes the cost trivial. They really are not forced to forego mobility for burst or burst for mobility/survival, it’s all neatly packaged in a few skills.

And their utilities are vastly overbudget. Shadowstep is the only skill in game with a 50 sec cd that’s a double teleport, a double stun breaker, and clears conditions to boot. Compare any stunbreak to that. All thief heals cure some condition as well and have side benefits besides just healing, whereas most classes just….get a heal.

Shadow Refuge should not grant stacking stealth at all. Stealth should be capped at 3-4 seconds. If you exit shadow refuge you get revealed. Use it for target drop or rezzing or stealth stomp but this whole "make people invisible and guarantee their opener for 8 seconds is just dumb.

And it’s not like they are starved for sustained damage either if they run out of initiative. Right after warrior mainhand axe, thieves have the highest autoattack damage in the game, the 3rd skill in the auto chain crits between 3-3.5k and applies weakness/cripple. Dagger auto hits less hard than sword auto but applies high poison uptime.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Zenith.7301:

Celestial meta ain’t pushing mesmers out, berzerker thieves are.

Funny I gave you this connotation. I’m saying mesmers are unable to affect celestial meta significantly, NOT celestial meta is pushing mesmer out.

That being said, the reason why I focused on boon strip before is exactly what many suggested here: mesmers’ DPS roamer role is easily filled by other class. Not necessary better filled, but easier. So any idea on what can be done about mesmer’s DPS roamer role other than providing better mesmer/thief matchup option? Also can anyone suggests specifically on what can be done to improve shatter mesmer/thief matchup?

Welp, a staff shatter mesmer almost had me in 1 shatter last night. I missed the tell and from full HP i went to ~100-200 hp.

The amount of oshicrap buttons i had to press under 2 seconds was too kitten high.

Still won, but had to restart the fight. The mesmer was silly enough to let it happen. So mesmers are perfectly fine in the dps aspect, its just some of you can’t play it right. That mesmer capped the point and earned around 20 points for his team by the time i restarted the fight and bursted him down and got lucky on sigils crit.

Zenith.7301:

Well that’s the initiative system. You spam the best skill peppered with the occasional, less used one.

The problem is they made a skill that evades, steals boons, and hits for 4k+ damage, instead of spreading that utility across the s/d set so they would actually have to choose what to spend initiative on.

Nop. Even with double proc crit, its still not 4k+. SD is low on damage, huge on acrobatics. Contrary to DP which may hit for 7-8k under same conditions.

So the new patch today. I actually think helped mes. The port changes added so much mobility, However you need use staff >.<

Ravenmoon.5318:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Zenith.7301:

Celestial meta ain’t pushing mesmers out, berzerker thieves are.

Funny I gave you this connotation. I’m saying mesmers are unable to affect celestial meta significantly, NOT celestial meta is pushing mesmer out.

That being said, the reason why I focused on boon strip before is exactly what many suggested here: mesmers’ DPS roamer role is easily filled by other class. Not necessary better filled, but easier. So any idea on what can be done about mesmer’s DPS roamer role other than providing better mesmer/thief matchup option? Also can anyone suggests specifically on what can be done to improve shatter mesmer/thief matchup?

Welp, a staff shatter mesmer almost had me in 1 shatter last night. I missed the tell and from full HP i went to ~100-200 hp.

The amount of oshicrap buttons i had to press under 2 seconds was too kitten high.

Still won, but had to restart the fight. The mesmer was silly enough to let it happen. So mesmers are perfectly fine in the dps aspect, its just some of you can’t play it right. That mesmer capped the point and earned around 20 points for his team by the time i restarted the fight and bursted him down and got lucky on sigils crit.

Lololol. A much more skilled player then I set up his long winding 3 clone shatter to which I royally kittened up and missed the tell and ate all the damage. Luckily, because I’m a thief, I reset the fight, came back and facerolled the mesmer due to hard counter. Due to the fact that said mesmer came close to killing me it is therefore conclusive that mesmer is fine and every mesmer just needs to L2p /raven mode.

Now for serious input and conversation. Have not had the chance to play since the port changes but so far its sounding awesome. Is it true though Johnny that traited blink still goes on full CD if uneven terrain?

Neptune.2570:

Now for serious input and conversation. Have not had the chance to play since the port changes but so far its sounding awesome. Is it true though Johnny that traited blink still goes on full CD if uneven terrain?

I guess it makes perfect sense to 1-shot anyone regardless of profession? <o> or just thieves should be 1-shot, I fail to realize whats your point here. Sad mode much?

Should we discuss how I run away from turret engineer because I have negative chances of winning or we still discuss that thieves are op and hardcounter is something just the thief is doing?

P.S: That moment when one quotes the wrong post because double post noob, lol
P.S.S: Mesmers are perfectly capable of resetting a fight if they pick mass invis instead of Moa, which I tend to dodge automatically

Ravenmoon.5318:

Neptune.2570:

Now for serious input and conversation. Have not had the chance to play since the port changes but so far its sounding awesome. Is it true though Johnny that traited blink still goes on full CD if uneven terrain?

I guess it makes perfect sense to 1-shot anyone regardless of profession? <o> or just thieves should be 1-shot, I fail to realize whats your point here. Sad mode much?

Should we discuss how I run away from turret engineer because I have negative chances of winning or we still discuss that thieves are op and hardcounter is something just the thief is doing?

P.S: That moment when one quotes the wrong post because double post noob, lol
P.S.S: Mesmers are perfectly capable of resetting a fight if they pick mass invis instead of Moa, which I tend to dodge automatically

I know Thief tends to be a very single-key heavy profession but you have a #4 key on dagger/pistol for a reason. Maybe if you’re on skill dagger you could even refrain from mashing your steal off cooldown and outskill that pesky 5 seconds of Mesmer stealth.

I like how everybody just assumes every thief runs Panic Strike D/P … like seriously <o>

In order for me to break a cast I have to stealth first, go behind the target and stab. Or have steal ready. But a fight between never lasts long enough for 2 steal procs. Its win or lose for either profession.

IMO mesmer’s main issue is that it can’t spawn its junk like turret engi and camp. And is also limited whereas engi can drop tons of stuff. And clones are nowhere near as HP enriched as the turrets are.

And then there are the usual skills that fail while run, a good example is Sword #3 even if you get within range at the end of the cast it still fails. There are certainly quirks to the class to work around, but its definitely not underpowered.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I like how everybody just assumes every thief runs Panic Strike D/P … like seriously <o>

In order for me to break a cast I have to stealth first, go behind the target and stab. Or have steal ready. But a fight between never lasts long enough for 2 steal procs. Its win or lose for either profession.

IMO mesmer’s main issue is that it can’t spawn its junk like turret engi and camp. And is also limited whereas engi can drop tons of stuff. And clones are nowhere near as HP enriched as the turrets are.

And then there are the usual skills that fail while run, a good example is Sword #3 even if you get within range at the end of the cast it still fails. There are certainly quirks to the class to work around, but its definitely not underpowered.

Or you can queue up backstab and shadowshot from stealth to land the backstab as well, you don’t need steal. Our you can heal and backstab, or you can shadow refuge and backstab. Really, if you’re not landing backstabs with the access to stealth you have, it’s a player problem.

I don’t know if I even want to venture to read the entire three pages, but this first reply to the thread is basically the correct answer, and best post 2015:

Selya.5039:

Necromancers and (especially) rangers are in the same position, if that’s any comfort. 3 main things are pushing Mesmers out of the meta in high-elite level play, imo.

1) Mesmers face very serious role competition from thieves. Thieves are generally better at fulfiling the role of the roamer. Thieves have higher mobility and stealth uptime for backcaps and +1ing fights and can disengage from fights better. Mesmers can only do three things better than thieves: Boon stripping, sustained ranged damage and portal. These are things that can be very useful to the team, however…

2) (Shatter) Mesmers get farmed by thieves. If the other team has a thief, the mesmer spends most of the game kiting and trying to survive getting ganked, if he doesn’t get 2 shot from stealth to begin with. In other words, the mesmer becomes a liability for most of the game. This skewed matchup is especially problematic since the role of the mesmer is to +1 fights. If the mesmer rotates to +1 a fight, the enemy thief can get there to even out the fight. And in an equal numbered fight where one team has a thief and the other has a mesmer, the team with the thief will probably win.

Good peeling from your team can help to mitigate the thief hard counter. However, the simple need to peel can be a huge liability to the mesmer’s team as well, as when teammates have to peel for the mesmer, it forces the team out of position and lessens pressure on other players on the enemy team. Moreover…

3) Why would teams want to invest all that time and effort to make a mesmer comp work, if there are alternatives that require far less effort to succeed and are more effective? Thieves are simply kings of the berserker classes in conquest, and has been since launch, so every team will reserve one spot for the thief. If the team needs a second DPS/roamer class, a cele engi can perform the role exceptionally well AND counter the enemy’s thief. Same thing for a hammer meditation guard.

TL;DR: Mesmer faces serious role competition from thieves. Even the most exceptional mesmer players struggle against enemy thieves, even with impeccable team support. The availability of more effective alternatives to the mesmer for a second DPS/roamer class, such as the celestial engineer or the hammer meditation guardian, removes any incentive for teams to try to make a mesmer comp work unless the mesmer is REALLY exceptional.

Solutions:
1) Making the Thief vs Mesmer matchup more balanced (the thief should still have an advantage imo, but not an utterly overwhelming one as in the status quo).

2) Giving the mesmer more out of combat mobility so that it can better fulfill the role of the roamer (right now, mesmers are pigeonholed into traveler runes in order to even be competitive in the “roaming” role).

3) Maybe….gasp, fix some of the underlying issues of the class such as the huge number of bugs, nonsensical trait lines, the need to always have deceptive evasion (unless you spec for phantasms, which is great for pve and 1v1s but is terrible for tPvP) and useless grandmaster traits so that mesmers can spec something other than shatter and be useful to a team in high level play.

+100 with extra emphasis on number 3. I’m still trying to maim the meta with condi shatter…

See, this is why I didn’t want to read this thread:

Ravenmoon.5318:

There are certainly quirks to the [Mesmer] class to work around, but its definitely not underpowered.

You mean certain… bugs? Mesmer is literally the most bug-ridden class in the game. It took them 2 years to make pWarden work half way decently. Oh, and please tell me you’ve seen the video of a dolyak dodging pMage’s attack??

I’ve played Mesmer since the five day early access, been a personal favorite class ever since and let me tell you. I’ve remember being one of the classes that annoyed the living hell out of every other class.

When I fought against Warriors all I had to do was time my dodges and play clone wars the video game.

Fighting Rangers I would just cripple them and feed back bubble for days. (Their pets only real thing that annoyed me)

Other Mesmers…we agree on just staying away from each other..(Unwritten rule in WvW)

Defenders It’s pretty much a boss battle of whose cds reset.

Thieves on the other hand I’ve had to use every different combination of skills and tried multiple fighting methods against them but 8 out of 10 of them it’s nothing I can throw that keeps them off.

Out of ANY class in this game Thieves are the only kind that I’ll literally become the angry german kid from youtube.
1) There’s not a skill in a the world I can prevent them from stealthing over and over. I can’t use Disenchanters of them because I have to actually have a target to use it on.

2)When they do go stealth I already assume they working their way behind me for the stab. Even if I time it right, I’m playing Jedi Instincts to time a dodge, That’s even WHEN I’m trying to throw down chaos armor or chaos storm to soft the blow.

3) My double edge sword is I can almost stealth as many times as a thieve in one of my builds but I trade off ALMOST all of my offensiveness for using that many escape.

In WvW or PvP I’ve ran into more Thieves targetting me more then any other class out there :/.

^ So you are basically crying because you can’t play around the stealthed characters. Instead of flipping your kitten after a backstab, you have 3 seconds in which the thief CANNOT reactivate stealth. If you can’t count to 3 seconds, you can watch for the regular attack, after the 3rd blow they can stealth again. It’s almost a 3 second chain and by the time they cast Cloak and Dagger the revealed buff is gone. But that’s only for D/D thieves.

If you play against D/P thief they have a much harder access to stealth mostly in the form of shadow field leap combo. SD thieves have it cheaper but they have to be really close to the mesmer for that cloak & dagger.

And the pistol thieves … well … they are a joke ……

Ravenmoon.5318:

Neptune.2570:

Now for serious input and conversation. Have not had the chance to play since the port changes but so far its sounding awesome. Is it true though Johnny that traited blink still goes on full CD if uneven terrain?

I guess it makes perfect sense to 1-shot anyone regardless of profession? <o> or just thieves should be 1-shot, I fail to realize whats your point here. Sad mode much?

Should we discuss how I run away from turret engineer because I have negative chances of winning or we still discuss that thieves are op and hardcounter is something just the thief is doing?

P.S: That moment when one quotes the wrong post because double post noob, lol
P.S.S: Mesmers are perfectly capable of resetting a fight if they pick mass invis instead of Moa, which I tend to dodge automatically

I have a suggestion for you then, after reading all your arrogant biased posts, from your absolute noob thief perspective(cause you are a noob thief with what you say) play mesmer yourself since it is so great and let me be the thief against you. Thief is the hard counter to mesmer, celestial is the hard counter to mesmer and thief simple math, you are the hard counter to human logic.

jim.5380:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Neptune.2570:

Now for serious input and conversation. Have not had the chance to play since the port changes but so far its sounding awesome. Is it true though Johnny that traited blink still goes on full CD if uneven terrain?

I guess it makes perfect sense to 1-shot anyone regardless of profession? <o> or just thieves should be 1-shot, I fail to realize whats your point here. Sad mode much?

Should we discuss how I run away from turret engineer because I have negative chances of winning or we still discuss that thieves are op and hardcounter is something just the thief is doing?

P.S: That moment when one quotes the wrong post because double post noob, lol
P.S.S: Mesmers are perfectly capable of resetting a fight if they pick mass invis instead of Moa, which I tend to dodge automatically

I have a suggestion for you then, after reading all your arrogant biased posts, from your absolute noob thief perspective(cause you are a noob thief with what you say) play mesmer yourself since it is so great and let me be the thief against you. Thief is the hard counter to mesmer, celestial is the hard counter to mesmer and thief simple math, you are the hard counter to human logic.

Thief 1on1? (I’m on EU)

lets go /15 char ingame the rest
by this time u havent login yet whisper me in this acc name
and to bring this abit on topic mesmer is on the exact same spot prepatch if not worse with thief being able to save steal cd when the ground is obscured(there were spots that mesmer could stand and steal completely fail)
to the post bellow u will find me online when u finish ur work

jim.5380:

lets go /15 char ingame the rest
by this time u havent login yet whisper me in this acc name

Finishing work in 4 hours, hopefully you’ll be IG then

Ravenmoon.5318:

^ So you are basically crying because you can’t play around the stealthed characters. Instead of flipping your kitten after a backstab, you have 3 seconds in which the thief CANNOT reactivate stealth. If you can’t count to 3 seconds, you can watch for the regular attack, after the 3rd blow they can stealth again. It’s almost a 3 second chain and by the time they cast Cloak and Dagger the revealed buff is gone. But that’s only for D/D thieves.

If you play against D/P thief they have a much harder access to stealth mostly in the form of shadow field leap combo. SD thieves have it cheaper but they have to be really close to the mesmer for that cloak & dagger.

And the pistol thieves … well … they are a joke ……

I mean I’m willing to bet enough gems right now you wouldn’t last a week playing against your class as me. As I said once one of you cloak I throw mine on as well. But difference is I don’t have a high burst attack jumping out of stealth. (unless I’m running torch build.))

So it’s pretty safe to say thread=derailed. Is it possible to get the forum specialist to kinda summarize what the constructive posts have stated? >.<

Supcutie.2538:

Thief is better than Mesmer in most cases

Yea, I’m in the same boat as you too, Scepter Ele is great and all but it just simply can’t be played without a thief alongside with me.

jportell.2197:

So it’s pretty safe to say thread=derailed. Is it possible to get the forum specialist to kinda summarize what the constructive posts have stated? >.<

What I basically got from all of this is that:

1. Some players feel that power builds are requiring way to perfect of play to actually be viable in a real setting. Shatter mesmer is a perfect example.
   1. Supcutie: “Should playing power be rewarding? Yes. Should playing power be so disproportionately more difficult? Probably not.”
2. Low tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players aren’t great at mesmer)
3. Top tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players ARE great and know how to hunt them).
4. Mid and high tiers, mesmer is great (scary even).
5. Some players think simply adding a small amount of condition removal to standard shatter mesmer would help it as right now mesmers often need smart teammates to clear condis for them.
6. Thief tends to cover the bases that mesmer can do (Burst, mobility, teleports, interrupts) and do them better, leaving mesmer with only a few assets to the team that thief doesn’t (Portal, more boon removal, stealth reses/moa).

I’ve actually been playing shatter mesmer a lot lately and I was wondering if anyone attempts to run (0/4/0/4/6) instead? You get feedback on pretty much every res, eliminating nade, shortbow thief and warrior longbow pressure from the meta builds (not to mention power rangers!). You also remove two conditions on heal, which was identified as a major concern for the build. As for damage, I can still wipe out about 50-75% of the light golem health with a standard Mirror Blade Shatter + Mind Stab combo. That’s pretty on par with regular shatter mesmer. The only thing you really lose is vuln on daze, boon removal and halting strike. I think that’s pretty solid, and you can survive a LOT longer with that single condition removal.

Sure, no boon removal, but you get a lot of support and the ability to survive if an ele, god forbid, taps you with their burning. Also, you still have portal and lots of reflects available.

As a suggestion, what do you think about:

1. Ether Feast – Remove two conditions if you have two or more clones.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

So it’s pretty safe to say thread=derailed. Is it possible to get the forum specialist to kinda summarize what the constructive posts have stated? >.<

What I basically got from all of this is that:

1. Some players feel that power builds are requiring way to perfect of play to actually be viable in a real setting. Shatter mesmer is a perfect example.
   1. Supcutie: “Should playing power be rewarding? Yes. Should playing power be so disproportionately more difficult? Probably not.”
2. Low tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players aren’t great at mesmer)
3. Top tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players ARE great and know how to hunt them).
4. Mid and high tiers, mesmer is great (scary even).
5. Some players think simply adding a small amount of condition removal to standard shatter mesmer would help it as right now mesmers often need smart teammates to clear condis for them.
6. Thief tends to cover the bases that mesmer can do (Burst, mobility, teleports, interrupts) and do them better, leaving mesmer with only a few assets to the team that thief doesn’t (Portal, more boon removal, stealth reses/moa).

I’ve actually been playing shatter mesmer a lot lately and I was wondering if anyone attempts to run (0/4/0/4/6) instead? You get feedback on pretty much every res, eliminating nade, shortbow thief and warrior longbow pressure from the meta builds (not to mention power rangers!). You also remove two conditions on heal, which was identified as a major concern for the build. As for damage, I can still wipe out about 50-75% of the light golem health with a standard Mirror Blade Shatter + Mind Stab combo. That’s pretty on par with regular shatter mesmer. The only thing you really lose is vuln on daze, boon removal and halting strike. I think that’s pretty solid, and you can survive a LOT longer with that single condition removal.

Sure, no boon removal, but you get a lot of support and the ability to survive if an ele, god forbid, taps you with their burning. Also, you still have portal and lots of reflects available.

As a suggestion, what do you think about:

1. Ether Feast – Remove two conditions if you have two or more clones.

I think we would all love that. Honestly, it’s kinda odd that thief is supposed to be the squishiest class “according to thieves”, wet they have conditional condition removal skills in their heals. In reality mesmer is the only class that has no condi clear in any heal.

^No No remember they said they deserved that high hitting burst dmg because they were super squishie. But then you had to fire back at if that’s the case the Defenders should be able to tank all they get thrown ate.(But it’s been proven time and time again that even then most toughest defender can get ate alive.)

I think shatter mesmers are really strong when played well – even in this meta. In a meta where boons reign supreme, being able to remove them so quickly is amazing.

The only real counters are s/d thieves and burn-focused medi guards.

I think if mesmers can get condi removal built into their heal, and 1 other source of condi remove, it would bring up their viability a lot more. Having to trait for any sort of condi removal is silly to me especially considering just how incredibly spammable they are.

Another problem are s/d thieves. Good d/p thieves are scary, but you can kill them if you play aggressively, time your attacks and rupt their stealthing. At the very least you can disengage fairly easily because you can put pressure on them right away. However, there’s not as much you can do against s/d because of how much evade could be spammed. Clones are not smart enough to counter that, thus shattering often misses. Not to mention they can just C+D the clones.

Just some thoughts from playing more mesmer now – used to main thief. I refuse to play s/d though…Way too forgiving.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

So it’s pretty safe to say thread=derailed. Is it possible to get the forum specialist to kinda summarize what the constructive posts have stated? >.<

What I basically got from all of this is that:

1. Some players feel that power builds are requiring way to perfect of play to actually be viable in a real setting. Shatter mesmer is a perfect example.
   1. Supcutie: “Should playing power be rewarding? Yes. Should playing power be so disproportionately more difficult? Probably not.”
2. Low tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players aren’t great at mesmer)
3. Top tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players ARE great and know how to hunt them).
4. Mid and high tiers, mesmer is great (scary even).
5. Some players think simply adding a small amount of condition removal to standard shatter mesmer would help it as right now mesmers often need smart teammates to clear condis for them.
6. Thief tends to cover the bases that mesmer can do (Burst, mobility, teleports, interrupts) and do them better, leaving mesmer with only a few assets to the team that thief doesn’t (Portal, more boon removal, stealth reses/moa).

I’ve actually been playing shatter mesmer a lot lately and I was wondering if anyone attempts to run (0/4/0/4/6) instead? You get feedback on pretty much every res, eliminating nade, shortbow thief and warrior longbow pressure from the meta builds (not to mention power rangers!). You also remove two conditions on heal, which was identified as a major concern for the build. As for damage, I can still wipe out about 50-75% of the light golem health with a standard Mirror Blade Shatter + Mind Stab combo. That’s pretty on par with regular shatter mesmer. The only thing you really lose is vuln on daze, boon removal and halting strike. I think that’s pretty solid, and you can survive a LOT longer with that single condition removal.

Sure, no boon removal, but you get a lot of support and the ability to survive if an ele, god forbid, taps you with their burning. Also, you still have portal and lots of reflects available.

As a suggestion, what do you think about:

1. Ether Feast – Remove two conditions if you have two or more clones.

Edit: Also I have run 0/4/0/4/6 before long time ago when it was still 0/20/0/20/30. The problem with it is. You lose all of your boon removing capability, and ur shatters don’t exactly hit hard enough to make anyone worry except someone that can still insta kill you before you get the chance to touch them.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

jportell.2197:

So it’s pretty safe to say thread=derailed. Is it possible to get the forum specialist to kinda summarize what the constructive posts have stated? >.<

What I basically got from all of this is that:

1. Some players feel that power builds are requiring way to perfect of play to actually be viable in a real setting. Shatter mesmer is a perfect example.
   1. Supcutie: “Should playing power be rewarding? Yes. Should playing power be so disproportionately more difficult? Probably not.”
2. Low tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players aren’t great at mesmer)
3. Top tiers, mesmer isn’t great (because players ARE great and know how to hunt them).
4. Mid and high tiers, mesmer is great (scary even).
5. Some players think simply adding a small amount of condition removal to standard shatter mesmer would help it as right now mesmers often need smart teammates to clear condis for them.
6. Thief tends to cover the bases that mesmer can do (Burst, mobility, teleports, interrupts) and do them better, leaving mesmer with only a few assets to the team that thief doesn’t (Portal, more boon removal, stealth reses/moa).

I’ve actually been playing shatter mesmer a lot lately and I was wondering if anyone attempts to run (0/4/0/4/6) instead? You get feedback on pretty much every res, eliminating nade, shortbow thief and warrior longbow pressure from the meta builds (not to mention power rangers!). You also remove two conditions on heal, which was identified as a major concern for the build. As for damage, I can still wipe out about 50-75% of the light golem health with a standard Mirror Blade Shatter + Mind Stab combo. That’s pretty on par with regular shatter mesmer. The only thing you really lose is vuln on daze, boon removal and halting strike. I think that’s pretty solid, and you can survive a LOT longer with that single condition removal.

Sure, no boon removal, but you get a lot of support and the ability to survive if an ele, god forbid, taps you with their burning. Also, you still have portal and lots of reflects available.

As a suggestion, what do you think about:

1. Ether Feast – Remove two conditions if you have two or more clones.

Look at Selya.5039 suggestions in this threads too.

It’s always been absurd to me that a thief can get a free Cloak and Dagger off Ranger and mesmer (and minion necro) because pets don’t dodge.

CnD should not trigger stealth on pets/clones unless your pets/clones dodge alongside your dodge.

Mesmer doesn’t work unless the Mesmer is good at what he does, then it works brilliantly. Otherwise, it’s better to roll another class because you’ll just be a burden to the team.

Every day in PvP I meet some hero mesmer who thinks he can take a thief 1on1 and ends up getting ganked all over the place the whole match while accomplishing nothing, whining and crying about how great he is and how his team is just full of PvE noobs. It’s impossible to support this kind of a guy because he’s usually teleporting himself to all kinds of fail spots where the thief can effortlessly follow him and stomp him out in silence.

If the guy understood enough to actually stay close to his teammates, taking the buffs that warriors and guardians are giving out, the thief chasing him would be the one getting wrecked all over the place. 1on1, the thief gains all boons against the mesmer while the mesmer loses all of his boons, so he’s obviously at a disadvantage.

I find skilled mesmers scary, can pop out of nowhere, burst you down instantly, and let the illusions clean up the work. I feel more comfortable against thieves personnaly, since their movements are more predictable.